 Everybody Steve with 10 books coming at you with Father Daniel Nolan the priest of attorney of St. Peter. He's all the way two times was away in Littleton, Colorado. Father Nolan, how you doing? Oh, very good. Thanks, Steve Before we get started, could you lead us off in a little prayer? Sure thing The name of the Father Son the Holy Ghost I'm in Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among human and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now at the hour death on that Saints Philip and James pray for us the name of the father son and holy ghost on Father, thank you again. Okay, father. You were good man. Yeah, bro navy army. I can't remember Uh, yes, I okay, united states Marine Corps Marine Corps. You're marine. I'll forgive me. I apologize. Dad was marine I thought so father Jackson. He works with his marine. Uh, I had a brain cramp. I'm sorry I apologize for insulting him with an army reference Uh, people will say like, uh, the Marines isn't that a department of the navy? And we respond. Yes, uh, the men's department So That works. Yeah, so, uh, I apologize for the insult Which was perfect for this because a couple months ago father when I was out in Denver with him He led us in his men's group retreat for about every month for Four or five months and let off with what we're talking about a couple months ago. Steve. Steve that that was a year ago That's a year. I'm okay. Maybe you're okay. Okay a couple months 12 months ago. Okay. All right Months could be two to 50. I don't know In my old age, I forget how many moons ago that was anyway, we say he led us off in his, uh Retreat on manliness. What is manliness? Starting with jaco willick and at that time I had no idea who this guy was what he was talking about But the concept that he was referring to is fantastic on ownership Which I read the books. It's great if you're in business or life or marriage family Whatever walk of life you can literally incorporate that with everything but Focusing on religion was something that we don't like doing So finally can you expand on that a little bit? Why did you even start with that? Sure, um Back with the background for people don't know who he is. Oh jaco willing. Yeah, sure Well, jaco willing. I mean and that name jaco is short for something like I don't know Maybe it's james or john or something like that. Um, but I don't think you know I don't think he came out like 18 month old cute little jaco um But he is a us navy ceo, uh, I think pretty high ranking like a captain or higher a colonel Lieutenant colonel major. I don't know something like that. Uh, but in charge of a group of navy ceos and Uh, you know ended up writing this book about leadership and it's very good because he When he's discussing leadership He does what's really hard most people when they know a topic They know something like they know it but they don't know how to explain it or even if they know how to explain it It's hard to find very good concise examples And so that's what jaco willing is able to do he takes his real life experiences from the the navy seals Which also happened to be very exciting But he describes him in such a way that he isolates only those principles which directly apply to leadership And then he'll do that and and say here's an example from or here's a topic Here's an aspect of leadership. This is the principle and here's an application in real life This is what happened to me and here's the principle applied and so then what he does is he teaches people Okay, do the same thing in your own life. Look for when you're in a management or whatever whatever leadership position you're in Uh, you know, look for examples understand this principle Look how to apply it in your particular situation and then you'll be able to to display this kind of leadership as well So that that's that's his style and that's what makes him very successful Is not just that leadership in business or extreme ownership is such a great idea I mean it is but the fact that he's able to present it in such a way that it's very clear I think that that's what makes it so appealing and popular yes, I Even before I started working in a real job again Uh, I had to I read that going. How do I how do I act? How do I interact with just? Uh co-workers boss, etc and before you know just reading his things were just the how we go about not complaining uh Focus on the mission not getting your sights on Uh, what's going over here focus on what you're doing over here. Don't get worried about what's going on over here And that's or what's going on homeland out at the house Uh problems that might from you know little itty-bitty things that will tweak at you and When you are bringing up with even marriage church related things Owning up to problems instead of complaining about it how How do you see how you do that in religion in general or like problems in the church right now You when we started this you did this back in when the uh the summer of uh, what would they call that the summer summer shame Yeah, yeah, um, so that would have been Was it last almost two years ago? No, almost two years ago We kind of started this but then it really got going last summer. Okay. Yeah, so it was last summer that we really got going on this. Um Yeah, well, I mean You mentioned a lot of stuff there Um, if I could go back to jockel willing. Um, so ownership Is one aspect of leadership? uh-huh um Which I would have to say um, I'm gonna use an example from uh, uh, um Regineer Gary gula grunge And he says that sanctity is the normal path for everybody Everybody who's baptized baptism is the seed And like complete and absolute sanctity is the is the is the tree And just like an oak tree you look at a giant majestic oak tree That is what is inside every single little acorn And if you plant a little bitty acorn, it's going to grow into this giant oak tree unless something else happens It gets you know rooted out or it gets, you know, um, you know, it falls over disease bugs, whatever it may be But that that ultimate giant oak tree is inside every single little seed. Um And you he talks about that to describe that's why everybody who is baptized is supposed to be a saint because baptism is the seed And sanctity is is the tree unless something prevents it or gets in the way, which is our fault That's why we go to purgatory. We're supposed to be great saints But grace builds upon nature so that little seed of of um baptism that's supernatural life inside of us sanctity Is the ultimate result of supernatural life of being born again But being born the first time being born in this flesh Uh maturity, uh virtue goodness That's what we're supposed to be human beings and men especially are supposed to be Uh ultimate leaders calm confident in control in charge Wise prudent temperance just that's what we're supposed to be by nature just by nature And that's what has meant in the gospel when uh, the the example of the the the servants Who fulfill all the tasks that the Householder gives them and then they say afterwards we are but lazy and worthless servants Why because we did the bare minimum servants are supposed to do this And so when we look at people and and we look at the natural virtues Prudence justice temperance fortitude just at the natural level That's what we are all supposed to be Uh and even the pagans recognize us those those four cardinal virtues that I just mentioned That was not something that the church invented The church looked back and those were roman virtues Those are recognized by the pagan romans as being the four cardinal virtues And the church simply looked at those and said yeah, you guys got it right. That's correct Those are the those that's a good way to describe The the four springs from which all the other virtues flow So um when you look at maturity when you look at um Leadership or whatever else it may be ownership, which is which is kind of I think the the talk of uh, jockel wheeling's book extreme ownership I think he's targeting Kind of the foundational starting point What he means is if you don't own up to your mistakes if you don't Accept your limitations and your weaknesses You're not going to go anywhere. It doesn't matter how How many other virtues you had or have or how competent you are If you can't admit where you're lacking and where you where you made a mistake You're you're going to stop right there and you're not going to go any further Uh, so that's kind of the idea of ownership Why is leadership even important leadership? Why is leadership important um Wow That's a curveball there steve But I got it. Um leadership. I would say leadership is important Because god created the world to operate according to a hierarchy A hierarchy is when some things are above other things some things are greater and some things are lesser God created inequality Uh, and that's why there's a hierarchy in the church. There are men above and there are men below Um, you mean humanity, um Just like the the sun right is the greatest as as the medieval's would say the sun is the greatest and most perfect of heavenly Bodies and then the moon and then the stars and then you know earth is in there somewhere celestial bodies um, they recognize that the sun is the principle of Like vegetation on earth the sun is greater and anything that operates by photosynthesis is going to be lesser So you've got a hierarchy there Um, and this is why just as a side note a historical note This is why the french revolution was really bad and an attack on the church because it said um equality There is no inequality. Nobody's greater. Nobody's lesser. Everybody's equal this egalitarianism Idea, that's not how god created the universe to be so leadership, um Uh, how can we say this um leadership we could say is us describing or maybe maybe um categorizing Those particular virtues Required from somebody who is in a position of authority So a person in a position of authority needs to have good prudence good judgment He needs to make decisions. He needs to care for the people below him. He needs to set the example He needs to be a good father if that be the case And so all of those qualities that a leader needs to display For the benefit of those under him for the accomplishment of his task. We're going to call that leadership um, what we say the first leader was um, well it was Ultimately, uh, lucifer was the first leader and he rebelled. He misused his position and uh, saint michael Took his place because he displayed humility. Uh, who is like unto god? Uh, the next leader was adam adam was the next leader and he was supposed to lead his wife He was supposed to take care of his wife. He was supposed to teach uh, his wife. Adam was first and eve was was second Um, and he didn't do that. He didn't display good leadership So I would say that leadership is important because anytime you have someone or a group of people who depend on somebody else That's why it's important other people are depending on their leaders to take care of them And when when a when a person when the when the person in charge of that the person in charge of taking care of others Doesn't do it. Well other people suffer Uh, now it's that's not unfair. I mean, well, it is unfair to a certain degree But that's why christ That was his example when he came into the cross He was the ultimate leader and he led by example He doesn't ask anything from us. He's not willing to do himself And that's why he came to earth and though he was god He did not claim equality with god and he was treated as the most objective men despised and reputed with sinners So if if the ultimate leader was willing to do that and be treated and just trampled underfoot by by bad leaders Conscious pilot was supposed to be a good leader and do his job and don't condemn innocent men to death Conscious pilot didn't do that the Pharisees the scribes the chief priests They were supposed to be waiting for the messiah recognize the messiah and accept the messiah They didn't do that. Right. They condemned the messiah. I didn't care who the messiah was They they wanted it to conform to their only of thinking So christ himself suffered from bad leadership Just as everybody else was all the jews the righteous jews. They were all suffering And he said uh, do as the Pharisees Say because they sit on the chair of moses What do not do is they do for their hypocrites and liars and whitewash sepulchers So we recognize the injustice of it But he he conformed himself to it so, um What to say that's why leadership is important because uh, what a good leader can do is You can you can take people and lead them towards sanctity and help them along the way Or you're going to be a cause of their sanctity in another way Which is by being bad and they're going to have to rely on christ and they're going to they're just going to have to imitate christ more fully by suffering more You know at your hands the hands of a bad leader and woe to that leader right woe to that one who leads a little One just straight In the first week of lent your your series of sermons Hit or touched upon this topic type deal of bad leadership Equals suffering for generations down the road and those guys in the in the readings We're taking ownership of the situation and doing prayer and penance For the oh, okay. Yeah, yeah um Yeah, you know sometimes I listen to my own sermons So I'm like, hey, that's a really good point like I totally forget, you know what I what I what I've said I just comes in the moment and it's gone um But yeah, that is a theme in the in the uh, oh, yeah, specifically the prophet um the chapter The book of daniel. Yeah, uh, and the jews are taken into captivity and they recognize they say that that we are We are justly punished for our offenses For our sins and the sins of our fathers So like I think I said in my sermon they don't sugarcoat The the Babylonian captivity. Yeah, our father is really sinned and they put the prophets to death and they they committed idolatry And that was that was terrible. But you know, we we too have sin So there's kind of an example of ownership Of not making excuses and not blaming other people like the jews tried to do the fathers have eaten sour grapes And the teeth of the children are set on edge in one sense that it's not You know the prophet daniel he recognizes that he says, yeah, we are suffering for what our ancestors did The problem comes when you want to push all the blame on somebody else All of it and so it's all their fault. We didn't do anything Uh, you know, we haven't eaten sour grapes. Our fathers have eaten sour grapes and daniel the prophet daniel's like no We both have right they have and we have and everybody's you know at fault What do we do now? Look, we're in a mess. Let's take ownership. How have we sinned? Uh, and what can we do to get better? In this situation, right? That's that's what he Was was kind of getting at and something it would be interesting for us all like we all should stop and ask ourselves You know, we complain When we suffer because of the bad behavior of others, right? We complain and we tend to feel sorry for ourselves What about when we benefit from the good behavior of others? I mean nobody complains about that. Nobody says, oh, that's unfair. Guess what that is and strictly speaking unfair I benefit from something I didn't do somebody else was good somebody else was holy and I benefited That's not fair Nobody complains about that because it's easy and and and and they get that benefit So we have to think okay because of the communion of saints. We're all connected I need to be I need to be willing to accept the suffering caused by others Uh as well as the good right except the good and the bad I can't only want one and not the other. Uh, that's a little bit immature So, uh, what we ask ourselves is okay. Since that's the case I don't want to be the one who causes suffering to others I want to be the one who benefits others and helps them rather than uh causes others, uh, that that You know weakening of faith or or damage or whatever it may be you're suffering That's that's my part in it So, uh, I think that that's a that's a good thing to remember about about that that the suffering that um We all the suffering or the blessings we can get gained for each other, right? We all we all matter in this And tied back to jaco is a couple of chapters. I read about it was he'd go up to these CEOs And they would complain about oh well the sales guy's not doing this or This group isn't doing this or the marketing group is you know, failing at this, you know Is all these excuses all you know line by line When we look into our I remember people would get mad when you were preached sometimes about this and why I'm tired of blaming myself for other people's problems or problems the last, you know, 10 15 20 30 40 years 100 years, whatever How he brings up obviously humility, which is fun to see humility in secular books Uh, yeah in your second lecture you said how many how is it that the secular guys are getting this but we aren't Sure, um You know remember these questions is I've got four or five things you want to talk about so don't let me Don't we forget that one go for it? Um Wait, what was your earlier question with the beginning of the beginning of the question of this one? Oh people got tired tired of hearing about my problems. Okay. Um Uh You know, I go back to what I said at the beginning about the oak tree like the the seed and how Um, there's an idea that grace builds on nature and that the supernatural virtues Are not going to replace the natural virtues and not enough people know about this but, um Temperance prudence justice temperance fortitude Everybody's supposed to have those whether you're catholic or not whether you're baptized or not Everybody's supposed to be temperate everybody by nature is supposed to recognize. I should not be a glutton I shouldn't be a drunkard. All right. I shouldn't indulge myself in whatever pleasures are in the world And this is why actually in romans chapter one. Um, st Paul is talking to the jews And he says the gentiles, um Had not the law but the law of the jews But they um, they fulfilled the law In that they obeyed the natural law because st. Paul says they're without without the law There is no sin and he said the gentiles though. They had not the law are not without sin They didn't have the jewish law, but they had the natural law and they knew they were not supposed to do these things um, and the specific specific thing he mentions is um, men committed unnatural acts with men and women unnatural acts of women And he says they reap the reward of their wickedness in their own flesh, right? diseases So, um, that's something against the natural law so Catholics, you know, we have this idea that i'm going to be holy If I pray 15 rosaries a day and I go to mass every day and receive holy communion every day And I do all these prayers and all these things and they never once think about do I control my tongue? Am I responsible? Am I mature? Am I like super sensitive? Do I get upset every time somebody says something to me and like and I get all angry and start pointing the finger at them? Right people to date we haven't been the sad thing is This is the sour grapes our fathers ate in this country The children were not given that patrimony a common courtesy Um, you know stand up shake hands say, how do you do this is how to answer the phone This is how to dress properly this ought to speak properly. Uh, we didn't get that and those cultural norms Are part of the natural law human beings are supposed to behave in a good and a virtuous manner and so, um, if we don't understand that if we don't understand that we need to build ourselves into um You know these virtues that are not per se supernatural like like punctuality or Uh, you know a good good grammar, uh dressing well behaving well speaking well Though those that's kind of like the foundation For the supernatural virtues to take us higher One of the things that was mentioned about the saints the curia of ours, especially Is a nobleman french nobleman would go to ours and go to confession and be received by by the curia of ours And they would think he had he was a noble of noble birth Because he said he's so courteous. He knows what to do. He knows all the customs And the curia of ours was a peasant But it was charity That inspired in him to treat others like christ and when you have that attitude You're going to look for ways to be courteous to be kind to be polite and so on Uh, and then this is another thing people don't recognize that courtesy and politeness in fact the very French the custom of the french aristocracy came out of benedict and monasteries Is you had everybody would go to benedict and monastery peasant nobility kings um, it didn't matter Their their their relatives and friends would go to visit and be so impressed with the charity of the monks They would bring it back And and cultivated in in their own um households And that was kind of the beginning of of that that european aristocracy aristocracy means rule by the best But rule by the most virtuous and it came out of benedict and monasteries it came out of charity so, um People want to bypass those natural virtues because it's hard. It requires me to work on my own um Faults and weaknesses and and the culture we in which we've been brought up is Uh, very very selfish culture. We've got to fight against that. In fact, you know, it's like in the air We breathe if we don't if we're not made aware that um You know what we have imbibed from our culture from our childhood We we need to be known. What are the mistakes there? Right? What am I kind of taking for granted that isn't really true? um so I would say that A great deal of sanctity and and ownership is going to be Realizing that I am probably not as mature as I should be. I am probably not as You know, like our culture of entertainment. I probably think I deserve more than I do I expect more luxuries that I really should have or need. I expect to be entertained I expect, you know, we have all these expectations that aren't per se our fault But this has been communicated to us by our culture and if we don't stop and try to try to think about Is that really good? Is that really a mature attitude? Um, we're going to be off on the wrong foundation um And and this is why we would say humility Is a foundational virtue Because humility a humble person is a truthful person humility and truth are convertible Uh, a humble person is a person who can accept the truth Right when you come up and you tell a humble person something unflattering But it's true. A proud person is going to get angry. They're going to be offended. How how do you say that to me? That's not true. Whatever that's pride that it wounds their pride. What a person of humility They love the truth wherever they can find it Whether I don't care if it's true about this about that about me I don't ask how does it make me feel I ask is it true? And if it's true, I accept it. That's the hallmark of humility And people, you know, there's a mistake to think that um humility means Uh Always claiming to be nothing or low like oh, I'm terrible. Oh, I'm at the whatever You know, it's kind of like fishing for compliments a humble person because they accept the truth and look they look for the truth If they're competent at something if they're good at something They don't say they're not they say yeah, I'm good at this. I have this ability I have that capacity and people say oh that was you know, you did a wonderful job That was really great. They say okay. Thank you very much. You know, I am good at it But they don't think that they're Better than you because of it or they don't think that overall they have a greater Status than they do simply because they have this at that particular skill and and um for everybody that's important because if um You could say the insecurity and fear come from A weakness of mine being exposed that I don't want people to know about Or I feel off guard like I put up my defense because I don't want people to know I I'm vulnerable or incompetent And somebody gets through that defense and now I'm I'm on the defensive But if I accept it and and realize that yes, that's a weakness I have But I'm not wounded by that. I'm not afraid of it admitting Yes, this is true. Like I'm I'm not a good public speaker or I'm I'm pretty bad with organization or my my whatever it may be Uh, I'm a little bit hotheaded or something like that You know, if we if we accept that There's no threat and we don't get defensive and when people get defensive they get angry. They get combative, you know And then there's all these problems arise um So, uh, so a leader so a leader Is confident when he knows Exactly what he's dealing with like what's what's the playing field? What what are the cards on the table and his own weaknesses and his own strengths Are on the table just like everybody else's and so when he's making decisions and we when he's thinking about what to do If somebody gives a suggestion That's a good suggestion and it's contrary to his He doesn't take it as a personal offense That somebody doesn't like my idea or my idea is not good enough or my decision isn't good enough He just thinks this decision Isn't good enough whether it's mine or anybody else's I don't care I don't care who makes the idea who who implements the idea. I just want the best idea there is and if that um Reveals a weakness of mine I don't have a stake in it. I already know my weaknesses and if you if you can point out to be another weakness I didn't know I have I'm a happier man because now I know more of the truth This is and this is the lesson I always tell people about st Peter st Peter was a better man and a better leader after he denied our lord than before Because before he didn't know himself He didn't know that he was capable of denying our lord He just swore up and down He would die with our lord and he was ready to do that He drew his sword in the garden of a gestemini and was ready With you know James and john and christ and himself four guys against 60 temple guards and he drew his sword and was ready to To strike, you know, and we read about the high priest ear getting cut off He was not aiming for the high priest ear. He was trying to split him down the center of the head He was going to start a brawl and he expected to win with four against 60. So that's courage. That's bravery. That's faith But he wasn't prepared To face the crucifixion of christ that was just not on his radar at all and when he got faced with that reality He fled He didn't know that about himself And what did he do afterwards? He turned and he wept And he went back to christ for forgiveness And that's what leaders need to be able to do That's what anybody needs to be able to do when we are confronted with how we have betrayed christ And we didn't think we were capable of it We have to be able to accept that in humility and say this is the truth about myself. I didn't want to be true But I need to accept it and now going forward Now I can be careful because I know myself and I know my weaknesses and if I'm not careful I can fall again So that's a strength humility humility and accepting my weaknesses makes me strong Because I know You know, it's a part of knowing the situation There's the outside situation and then there's the inside situation and I need to know both If I know both I can make better decisions and I'm a better leader What are some practical ways that people can do that with themselves? church back, you know church crisis family problems Maybe your priest isn't up to par in your own mind except your bishop maybe what are some practical ideas that people can do instead of typing a blog out that they can do to Do repent do payments etc? well, um I mean typing a blog might be one of those things people can do um and and um It would be a mistake to think that Um the virtue of piety which is respect for our those above us Those in charge of us whatever respect for leaders will say piety Or meekness or humility or obedience um Doesn't mean we can't um, how could I say this express our concerns to our leaders? Um and with jocco willing what you know what you what you I don't I haven't read the book. Um But what I'm absolutely certain Would have happened in reality. Is there are times when the leaders You've got you know say the the um commanding officer and then his second command the executive officer It's not all roses and bubble gum between leaders I mean they'll come out and the commander says this is the way it is and the exo says this is the way it is This is what we're doing. This is the plan. I don't want to hear it. Let's get out there and make this happen That's what everybody sees what what everybody doesn't see is behind closed doors I mean the xo and the ceo going at it and the xo telling the officer you're an idiot You don't know what you're talking about. This is a mistake. It's the dumbest idea I mean, that's the job of the executive officer is to is to roast the commanding officer and tell him what he really thinks and to give him A full explanation that the the executive officer is the one who needs to go out there among all the people and say look This is what the troops are saying This is what the people are saying and they're not happy and and the you know This is the reality of the situation. He presents that to the commanding officer. He doesn't sugarcoat it and try to Play interference and protect the commanding officer From bad decisions and and and the real opinions of people But guess what if you've got a commanding officer if you've got a leader who's not confident And he doesn't want to have his weaknesses exposed He's going to get a yes man as a second in command Because he wants to be protected from the bad opinions. He wants to be protected from facing his own inadequacies And uh a shortcomings and so when you get a bad leader when you get a man who's not confident A man who can't own up his mistakes. He is going to perpetuate in his organization Covering up his weaknesses and that was a big problem in the church at that point The the poor people And this is where people will get sick of hearing about they need to change because they see that hypocrisy They see that the leaders are not displaying the virtues that they themselves are asked to display And and they and they want justice to be done They want somebody to point that out and so that's why it's important for say middle management You know priests to be able to say yes, there are problems. There are failures in the leadership. There is cowardice. There is insecurity but um, there's not much we can do about that right we do what we can and if we're going to complain or or or um Try to do something about that. It has to be done respectfully You know we can't go up and start yelling at the bishop or calling the bishop a coward or saying that he's faithless Or he's a bad shepherd or whatever they may be um What what does that do? um What I always tell people is that if you have a problem with a leader Focus on the actions and not on the person is rather than saying my bishop is bad Uh, or my bishop is weak or my bishop is a coward You you say something like Um, uh negligently canceling masses without serious reasons Um would not be the actions of a good shepherd um now Whether or not this or that particular bishop or our bishop has negatively cancelled mass. I'm not saying I'm just putting out the principles And so that that can be a way um to address Attack the air without attacking the person. Yes. Yes the idea without the person right so Uh, where oh what what can people do right? um I think that's the first thing they can do is that okay. Here's my problem with my bishop or my priest or whatever How what about his activity? Would I criticize and and why and for what reason and this is where most people, you know It takes a bit of a discernment of the ability to make distinctions and that's that's kind of getting into some um I would say philosophical skills being able to to to divide and distinguish um But I think a good practice for everyone is to ask themselves Can I How would a saint act or the saints never lost their peace in in in approaching this this this um Uh problem What's causing me to lose my peace? What am I angry about? What am I insecure about and and what are my problems right a big problem of people is that they want to point the fingers at others And they don't want to point it to themselves. So I don't know What the inside problems are I'm not going to know What the outside problems are right? I might be mad at my bishop and it turns out I have an unrealistic expectation of what a bishop should do That could be a problem and another person's whole anger is because they've got this this fantasy idea Of the way the church is supposed to be and it's just not realistic and they need to grow up and get and be mature That's what you'll be able to do by focusing on yourself first is you look for all the problems that might be in here Before you start pointing the fingers and going out there and people they want to do the opposite They want to start out there first and never think about themselves Yeah, he brings it up in the book. He calls it detachment if you Shockingly enough detached from the situation Scan the surroundings see what's going on and then execute after you figure out a plan for whatever the problem is Right. Um, and that's a great word detachment. And you know going back to what you mentioned earlier like why is it these pagans are Recognizing these truths about not in the church Um couple of reasons I think that the uh the marine corps especially but the military in general Is very domestic in their outlook in that I mean when they when they teach lieutenants because if you make a mistake in battle Uh You lose like you don't lose money. You don't lose status. You don't lose reputation You're dead And your country could be taken over so the consequences for being wrong in battle are absolute and catastrophic And and ultimate final like you make this mistake. There's no second chance. It's over you lost So so the the military strategy is ultimately Realistic like you know what cut the crap. I don't care what what philosophers say what Nietzsche says or contour You know does reality exist go ahead and stick your head up out of a fighting hole when there's machine gun fire Do those bullets really exist? You know, you'll find out pretty soon and and what are the consequences, right? Um And they taught us that it doesn't matter what you think is true what you want to be true What should be true what the manuals say should be true What's happening right now and what is true? Right that that's the military mindset and that's very domestic Um, so when you uh, when you approach reality from that perspective You get uh, very I would say natural law Results is because nature operates according to god's plan And when you are ultimately realistic and when you are detached and I have no philosophy I'm not projecting anything from my mind onto reality when I just look at reality and take it for what it is You find truth you find god you find god's laws Um, and so that's what that's why this book is landing on Catholic Teaching and the teaching of the saints because the saints we're starting with truth the saints We're starting with god and drawing things down to us Well at the same time recognizing what it was here and bring you and and tying it back together with god that that's that's um philosophy and theology they meet in the middle that's why they they um compliment each other so uh In the perspective of the church has always been um You take whatever is true Regardless of the source and if it's true you accept it that's humility um, and there was this this argument in the past about um I think it was origin Who said what has Athens to do with Jerusalem? In in that it was and maybe I can't recall exactly maybe it was a gust and I don't know um But there was the idea like when philosophy was was was being introduced into the church There were those who said no this is this is pagan and yes, maybe it's clever Maybe it's you know logical whatever but we have the bible and we learn our truth from christ And and so Athens, you know the center of logic and center of science What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem? We want to preach christ and him crucified And then the church recognized no look christ is the author both of the bible and of nature And he doesn't tell us one thing in the bible and a different thing in nature They both complement each other and perfect it and it was um Aquinas in the sumo who says following others after him that The bible is perfect and contains all truth But what about the mind that studies the bible? That needs to be perfected as well and we do that we perfect the mind with philosophy proper philosophy and logic And then we use that to study the bible and we bring out the perfections of the truths of god So that is um similar it doesn't matter Athens uh greece sparta or Jaco will ink navy seals It doesn't matter where the truth comes from if it's true You accept it and you learn from it Um, and again, I go back to roman's chapter one the Gentiles have no excuse not to know the living god Who the invisible god from the visible things which are? And so we just from life itself just from reality We can come to know the reality of god and so why are we surprised when that happens when pagans You know or whatever do recognize god's truth from reality. They're supposed to our mind recognizes truth And not tell anybody to read muhammad, but if you read the sumo, which you should Aquinas quotes muhammad's not all the time, but he does when he's right on something Or another pagan or a heretic in general. I think he's like eight or nine different guys. He's used right And I don't know if it's muhammad, but the um, um Muslim philosopher of eroes. That's right. Yeah, that yeah, right. Yeah Which is why which is why actually Aristotle was was cast in suspicion in coming into the into the west into the latin church because Aristotle had been filtered through and passed on by the Islamic philosophers and they had intermixed their own commentary onto Aristotle, which was which was incorrect And st. Thomas Aquinas kind of separated the two like like this is this is what we've gotten from the muslims This is muslim and this is Aristotle and and that's true So owning it How can owning it how how is Band up and own it. How do you have this right extreme extreme ownership? Yes? Yeah, um It goes back to um being willing To accept your faults and your failings being willing to say okay, um I've got to take an honest look at myself and and think what is true And you know for me the best thing one of the best things I ever did was when I started I went to college and I was a young man And I was telling you know arguing with people and getting into kind of debates and things I wanted to be right. I didn't like being wrong And what I what I discovered was um The only way i'm going to be right all the time Is if I really really listen to what other people are saying And and try to learn. Okay. Is anything they're saying true Like maybe their overall message is wrong. Maybe they're wrong about a lot of stuff But if anything at all they say is true I want to accept that and know that and then make it my own So when you when you go through life looking for truth wherever you can find it and always being willing to um A constant recycling in your mind. Okay, I accepted this is true, but I didn't really examine it Like in a hard light. I got to really think about it. Is this just me being selfish? Is this me being stubborn? Is this are my emotions coming into play and the way I would look at if I would suspect my opinion If I started to get upset about it Like if somebody challenged me and I felt an emotional rise I would be suspicious of myself and be like, okay, I'm not detached from this idea Because anytime when somebody gives you an opposite opinion Uh, the natural feeling is they're opposing me. They don't believe me And they should like something I said isn't good enough um And we have to get over that instead rather look at it as Okay, they need this idea explained to them in a different way or maybe um What I thought I thought I had 90 of the truth It turns out I had 50 of the truth and I didn't know as much as I thought I did and this person I can learn something from them So it's it's that's an important. I would say skill and ability To start with with ownership and whether it's an idea or whether it's a virtue or whether it's a behavior Like I didn't see anything wrong with my behavior, but um Other people do Uh, except that I may not see and understand everything and be willing to change And learn from others. I think it's going to be the first um Kind of baseline and and from that ownership is Knowing when my best isn't good enough um, and people let's see they they um the two virtues of Accountability and responsibility Need to be understood very well like you can be held accountable For something that you couldn't change and that's not um That's not unfair. I mean it's unfair in a sense, but it's like the um Captain of a ship when the ship runs aground. He's relieved of command Even if like he was fast asleep and somebody else is in charge He's responsible for the training of the crew and everybody under him. He's accountable Like even though he could have had the best training program It's just sometimes that happens, but that's important because it sends the message This is serious and you need to take it seriously um, and responsibility we could say um produces Rights rights come from responsibilities if I'm responsible for something. Well if I'm responsible for training people You've got to give me the freedom to train them So that he's making decisions. What are we going to do? How are we going to train? What are they going to learn? What are they going to know? So that's that's um I would say the the idea behind ownership Is that every single person has the right to exercise free will God gave us free will and he And we have the right to exercise that but why? To save our souls To do what is good to return to him to make it to heaven to become a saint And if we're responsible for that And if I don't do the right thing That's my fault. That's that's why purgatory exists is because I could have done something differently and didn't um and We just lost her there you go okay, um Knowing that it's not enough to sit back and then complain when things don't go well Or if I don't know how to be a saint to be like, well, I guess I just you know I'm gonna kind of wait for sanctity to happen or other people become saints, but not me I need to be reading the lives of the saints. I need to be Instructing myself How do I learn how to exercise my free will? How do I take responsibility for my own actions? How do I how do I grow up in life? um And you know if a great way is like people will get accused well like people accuse us of something Don't think about all the ways. They're wrong. Look for that 10% way that they are correct You know what they say is true and I need to accept that Um or in my own behavior if my life is difficult, uh, what am I do throw myself a pity party and say oh my life is so hard Stand up and do something right take ownership of your life I can't change all these things outside of me what I can change what's inside of me And that's what god is calling me to do. He's gave me free will um And even again, this goes back to the natural virtue even the pagan philosophers recognized Nothing exterior to the to man Can affect man It's only the value I place on exterior things Right, it's I'm grieved at the loss of something outside of me That's my decision Or I'm elated at something outside of me again. That's my decision. It's the value I place onto it I mean this is getting into a bit of stoicism But there is that element of um, we have a decision and a choice about How to react and how to behave we can't help the feelings that we have feelings just arise within us desires to rise What do I do with those feelings? What do I do with those desires now that I have them that decision is mine And so that in a certain sense that's ownership and when a decision of mine has resulted in something That is good or not good that other people like or don't like Accept it take ownership. Okay, you're right. I shouldn't have said that I should have done that I'm gonna learn for next time You know done deal Yeah, I mean if anybody doesn't know what we're talking about on this the guy that wrote the book had two people killed in a mission And his commanding officer was coming in it was going to everyone was expecting him to put the blame on other people And he stands in front of the commanding officer. No, it's my fault. I'm the commander in this room The buck and and and he trained his team well because he goes to the team And they all do the right thing. He asks every single one of his team What went wrong? How did those men die and every single man says, you know, it was my fault I didn't do communications well enough. It was my fault. I was overextended It was my fault. I didn't do this and the commander listens to all of them And he could have pinned it on any one of them. He could have pinned it on anything and he said Nope It's my fault. I'm the guy in charge I'm at the top Ultimately the responsibility is mine And I'm going to take the hit for this. I and he said what he did wrong Yeah, he just didn't exercise good command and control and he took the hit for everybody um He tried teaching the CEO this the CEO was just Running the company into the ground And he tells that where it was the president. He said go tell the CEO it's your fault This is what you're going to do blah blah blah blah blah because I can't do that. They'll kick me out They'll fire me go in there do it and it took him two days to figure it out to do it And he got a promotion out of the deal So and that's the thing people don't understand the humility They think if I admit my weaknesses if I show people my faults Then they won't like me. They won't respect me Um, they'll look down on me. They'll make fun of me. I'm exposed, right? I'm vulnerable And they think that if they admit their faults That that's a weakness when on the contrary just think about any time somebody else admits their faults Do you think less of them know you think more because guess what behind the fault? I rather would say yeah behind the fault itself is the ability to admit the fault And that's courage and that's strength and that's honesty and that makes you trust somebody You think about that when when when somebody else admits their fault to you when you correct somebody And they own up to it and they're humble and they gotta say yeah, you know, that's that's not something good I have but I'm working on it and I know it's a fault and you know, I'm sorry. I can just be patient use like That's great. I can work with this guy. You trust that person. He's honest And I'll tell you that virtue right there honesty and trustworthiness is the foundation of every single relationship If you can't trust somebody you can't have a relationship with them You can't have a real one And that's why humility is the bedrock of the spiritual life is if you're not humble You can't have a relationship with god because you're not being real. You're not being honest He's not having a relationship with you You're trying to have a relationship with god with a real this person that doesn't exist God wants a relationship with you and the real you and that's you with all of your flaws In reality, so you've got to admit your flaws to yourself and when you admit them to others You can have a relationship with others and especially with leader and lead They'll trust you and and they'll follow you and they'll help you And leadership is really about finding out the strengths and weaknesses of everybody So you can protect people from their weaknesses and put them where their strengths are going to come to the surface That's what a good leader a great leader does What are some good books on humility ability of heart? Yeah, um good books on humility. Um Hey, yeah, um I Don't know humility specifically But books that I always recommend to people uh thomas a campus imitation of christ That's an excellent book Francis de sales um introduction to the devout life is a very good book. Um Uh devotion to the sacred heart uh from st. Margaret mary ala co. That's by father john Corsay who wrote that book. That's an excellent one. Uh, that one's that was a hard one to read uh, uh introduction to Devotion to the sacred heart because it's written from the perspective of uh, 17th century french piety You got you got a kind of you got to know what you're getting into when you read that book But when you do know you're like, okay, I get it. I did it all makes sense Uh, that's just a few in addition to the one you mentioned. Yeah. Yeah, humility of heart. Yeah, man I think oh, I think tan publishes all of them. Uh, just side note. Oh tan. I tell you what tan publishers Um, the two most excellent books not on specific on humility But I always always always recommend these books from tan Is the incredible catholic mass by father martin von kochem and purgatory by father philic chubb Because I like I love those books because they bracket the spiritual life the book on purgatory makes us really fear sin and understand that there are consequences to sin Even if they've been forgiven it makes you like oh, okay. I don't want sin I'm afraid of sin and I want to try harder. It's a negative reinforcement. It's a negative motivation On the other hand the book on the incredible catholic mass. You're like wow the mass is awesome Grace is awesome. I want more of it. I want to grow in virtue and when I go to mass I can participate better. I'm thinking about more It just opened up the whole spiritual life and now I try harder not because i'm afraid of sin Because I love virtue so I they give kind of the um the paradigm for growing in the spiritual life And so I just always would recommend anybody read those books. I think in any order Do it it doesn't matter you read in the middle start in the middle start at the end It just pick a chapter to start reading. It's fascinating. It's got stories miracles examples dogma I just love those books. I think both of them sucker punched me in the stomach when I first read both of them I mean purgatory was right when I was coming back into the church Woo scared you know what added me And you are you told me to read the incredible catholic mass and that just was one of those like all right I'm terrible person I need to step my game up a little bit better do more of the game Now let's talk about that just just good guilt and bad guilt bad guilt Is when we read something and we're like oh i'm a terrible person And then we feel deflated like we want to give up and be like I just can't do it Why don't even try nothing I do matters that is bad guilt resist that like a temptation Good guilt is the guilt's like I got to step up my game Okay, I'm not doing enough, but I can do more with all these graces available from the mass I can do this and something especially to keep in mind with that book purgatory is the punishment for religious For the monks the nuns and the priests are always like 10 times worse than for lay people The punishments of lay persons are um, I mean they're they're not good. They're harsh But when you read the book look at what the religious like their faults and their sins and their punishments as compared to the lay persons Their faults and their punishments and you'll see that they're very different like the religious get punished for very very small faults But for lay persons, it's like, you know, they defrauded somebody for 20 years, you know as as a ledger or something like that So there are there is a different standard because some people especially these poor women these moms these busy housewives They're trying to take care of all these kids And they read this book about these nuns and these nuns have these little tiny faults And they hide all this purgatory and then the moms feel like well if that was their purgatory, what's mine gonna be like It's gonna be a lot easier. I tell you you moms generally you do your purgatory Taking care of your kids. I mean you you've got to be that does no excuse But uh, don't forget that your very jobs like I say moms with kids They're always feeding the hungry clothing the naked instructing the ignorant admonishing the sinner Right moms do all those things like the whole life daily So, uh, they um, it's gonna go pretty pretty well for for moms of big families on judgment day Yeah, which is the ultimate uh ownership day That's right. Yeah ownership final judgment. That's that's where it all comes out But file. I appreciate any final thoughts on the matter Um, yeah, um, no, I just uh, I guess there's a more about this and I I didn't think I would let be able to last an hour But here we are already done and you haven't you haven't contributed much. I didn't give you much of a chance. So Oh, I just shoot the questions out. Let the let the professional, uh, recite back. Oh, yeah, whatever So I'm happy to talk about it. It's a topic. I um, um, I mean, I enjoy it because you know, I spent six years in the military Um, uh six years in the marine corps and I spent a lot of time, you know At the seminary then integrating the two Uh, so a friend of mine actually he asked me I would talk to him about leadership and I was I was kind of complaining about leadership in the church Like over and over again at the seminary and he got sick of it You know, and like I would I would tell him these things and he would he's like, no, that's just whatever You know, this is not the marine corps and not kind of stuff. Anyways, he became a pastor And he wanted to learn leadership. So we got jaco willing's book extreme ownership and he called me later and he said, you know Listening to that book is like listening to you for seven hours Okay, all right, you know, there there we go. Thank you. Finally Uh, we said the difference is he gives like I said specific concrete examples Not just principles like I would only talk about principles and say this is wrong. That's wrong But willing says this is why like here's how to understand. So, um, that's that's something that um It's just a topic that that I think You know, all you find all find kinds of leadership books applied from the military to business What about applying it from military to the church right from a military to a pastor or to uh, um, You know, something like that. I think that would be something I would I would um, well, I have I've actually been thinking a lot about that So, I don't know. I know a publisher if you ever want to do that I'll keep that in mind I'll probably give you a final lesson here, certainly But it makes you damn the patentees potasipidae gets bit at the Sunday to shend at supervulcid money at Semper on that Thank you, father. Okay. Good talking to you and steve