 So today on Anabaptist Perspectives, we are discussing usury, socialism, and laying up treasures in heaven. So, John, on the last episode you described what Jesus says we shouldn't do as far as laying up treasures, but what's the positive side? What are the things we should do when it comes to how we manage the treasures we've been given? Well, this is the part I really like to discuss. I'm not basically a negative person. And Jesus understood that we have a tremendous passion to acquire. And so he told us that he God gave us that, I assume that that's what he would have said. And he wants us to lay up treasure. He wants us to have a passion for laying up treasure. And he says we're supposed to lay this treasure up in heaven. And he tells us how we're supposed to do it. We're supposed to do it by giving our resources as much as we possibly can to help the people around us. In fact, the final test of Christianity is going to be what we did in this respect. When we meet Jesus, according to Matthew 25, the question is not going to be where you saved. Did you have faith? The question is going to be what did you do with your stuff, which will prove whether or not we were saved or whether we had faith. Because a person who truly has been born again has had his whole heart changed. Instead of wanting things to come this way, his heart begins to say, we're going to distribute. In fact, John the Baptist, when he was preaching, he said, I want you to bring forth evidence that you've repented. I don't know what most people would say that evidence should be. But then they came to John. They said, well, what evidence are you looking for? And John said, well, if you have two coats, give one away. And if you have extra food, do likewise. And so what John the Baptist said about repentance, what we actually know what the final test is going to be when we meet Christ. Did you feed the hungry? Did you close the naked? What did you do with the disenfranchised people of this world who really needed your help? That's going to be the final test. And so we're supposed to be focused on that. We're supposed to be giving. Giving is not an expense. Most people look at it as an expense. I paid the electric bill and never see that money again. No, Jesus makes it very clear that everything that we have invested in the kingdom is treasure in heaven, which we will enjoy through all eternity. And I don't know what that all means. So we need to get back to this thing of giving as an investment. People who are into investments, they'll drive an old car. They'll wear old clothes. They'll eat simple food. They'll just scrimp and scrimp to put their money into that investment because they have a great appreciation for compound interest and what you can do with investments. That is how we're to look at our things. We're to look at them as an investment. And God loves a cheerful giver. That word is Hilaros in the Greek. He loves hilarious givers. He loves people who just are so excited about giving. And my favorite verse in the New Testament is 2 Corinthians 9-8. God is able to make all grace abound toward you. Abound means unlimited. That you always having all sufficiency in all things may abound unlimited unto every good work. But preceding that are the verses on giving. That's where the verse is God loves a cheerful giver. So what those verses are saying is to those who are hilarious givers, God is a hilarious giver. He qualifies his giving by the giving that he sees in our lives. And so if you want verses 2 Corinthians 9-8 to be a reality in your life, then you have to be a passionate giver. Because God responds to your level of giving in terms of what he gives spiritually. We see that also in Luke 16, the parable of the unjust steward. The man who was going to be put out of the stewardship. He said, what shall I do? Oh, I'm going to start giving stuff away to my friends because then I'll have some reward later. And I want to read just a verse from there. I say to you, make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness that when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. I don't know what all that means, but he's saying we're supposed to do what that unjust steward did. That man's Lord did not want him to give away as well. We have a Lord that says, give it away. He wants us to give away his stuff. And he says, do that. Just be liberal. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in that which is much. And he that is unjust in that which is least is unjust also in that which is much. And he's talking about money. If therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust to true riches? And if you've not been faithful in that which is another man's, this is all God's, who shall give you that which is your own? You know, I look at a person like John Wesley, who was such a powerful person spiritually, had such a tremendous influence in his generation. And if you want to know what the secret behind that was, you go and look at John Wesley's giving. John Wesley wrote a number of books, quite a number of fact, they were small booklets. And they say that his income in present money, current money would have been about $140,000 a year. Out of that, he took a salary in today's money of $14,000 a year. The rest was given away. And if you read his journal, you will find that out of that $14,000 a year, much of that was given away. And he worried about whether he should drink tea because it was a luxury money. He could have given to help somebody else. That was this man's whole mentality. And I think Luke 16 explains why this man was given riches, true riches, because he knew what to do with his stuff. God wants us to make an investment in the kingdom of heaven. He wants us to be hilarious givers. He wants us to understand that our level of giving will determine his level of giving grace into our lives. And so, yes, God wants us to be investors. But you know, we pass the offering basket and we put the money with him. There goes the $50. Never see that again. Oh, wait a minute. That's the only money you ever are going to see again, what you have given. The story is told of a man who went to heaven. And when he got there, he had a neighbor who on earth had lived a rather simple life. He thought he actually was sort of poor, but he had this huge mansion and he got all excited. He said, oh, I want to see my mansion. So he took him down the streets of the city out into the outlying regions of heaven and they came on this chicken coop. And he said, that's yours. What? Well, they built these mansions with what you send ahead and that's what you sent. So there it is. Another story, which is a favorite of mine is the story of a man who was shipwrecked down in the South Sea Island somewhere. And he managed to get to the island and the natives right there and they picked him up and carried him in great celebration and put him on a throne in the middle of the island. And he said, what's this? And they said, well, this island has a custom that they choose somebody to be king for a year. And we decided to make you king for the year on this island. So he was really enjoying himself. He was a king. He had all kinds of food and whatever he wanted. But one day it occurred to him, what happened to the others? So I said to them, he said, well, after you've been king for a year, then what happens? Oh, they take you out to an island, the deserted island and leave you there to die. Oh, okay. I know what to do. So he started to hire people to go to that island and build irrigation systems and plant crops and build houses. And by the time he was finished being king for a year, he was banished to an island of wealth and plenty. That's sort of a picture of what God wants us to do. He wants us to take this stuff and transfer it to another place where we will enjoy it forever. I get excited about this. And if you really get excited about this concept of what Jesus taught, you will become a hilarious giver. Okay. So I have a follow-up question then for you on all of this. So this is going to pivot a little bit. So we were talking about laying up treasures in heaven, but we're going to start getting a little more practical about maybe some questions people might have or criticisms to some of these things. So when I have spoken with some Christians about passages like, say, Exodus 22-25, Ezekiel 18-17, these are passages that strongly criticize what they use the term, usury interest. And they have pushed back saying that the New Testament doesn't discuss this issue. Therefore, it's no more binding than policies that most Christians ignore, such as dietary or other such laws. How do you think about the applicability of rejecting usury considering the absence of any comment in the New Testament on that topic? Well, there is comment. Okay. There's powerful comment. Please do. Yeah. Luke chapter 6, 32, for if you love them which love you, what thank have you? And that's kind of east, that word thank, which means what grace have you or what Christianity have you. For sinners also love those that love them. And if you do good to them which do good to you, what thank, grace, Christianity have you, for sinners also do the same. And if you lend to them, of whom you hope to receive what Christianity have you, what thank have you, for sinners also lend to sinners to receive as much again. No interest. Sinners can actually lend without charging interest. That is actually within the realm of the of a sinner's possibility. But love you your enemies and do good and lend hoping for nothing again. I was teaching an adult Sunday school class. I love to teach the old men because their peers of many of them died and their inhibitions are all gone. So they say just what they think. I was reading this one time and one of the older men in the class said, well, that's not lending, that's giving. So Jesus said we're not even supposed to worry about getting the principal back. So interest is totally irrelevant. Any interest. Now there are people that borrow money from you to start a business and they're going to, you know, they're going to prosper and all of that from the money you lent them. And I'm not going to say what you should do. I'm never wrong to allow somebody to pay for the use of something that you gave them. But that should not be our mentality, especially if there's a need in the brotherhood and a brother comes and says, look, I just need some help here financially. We shouldn't even be thinking about getting the principal back. So he says, when hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great, and you should be the children of the highest. For he's kind and to the unthankful to the evil. Be therefore merciful as your father also is merciful. In the parallel passage in Matthew, it says be perfect. That's what it means to be perfect. Be like our father. Just give. And that's what I try to do. Somebody else in need, I just try to give. And often if they're Christian people, they'll come back and say, look, I'd like to pay this back. That's okay. But I'm not, I'm not planning on it. And of course, that frees you tremendously because then you're not worried about whether that ever gets paid back. You've given it. It's gone. It's in heaven, by the way. So, yeah, the New Testament, I think, is very clear on the fact that Christians do not charge interest as a general practice. In fact, they don't even lend. They give. So kind of a bit of a follow up question then. Should all interest be lumped together with the practices so vigorously condemned in the Old Testament? Those passages seem to primarily describe interest on survival loans where people were borrowing to either meet basic needs or retain ownership of their land. I think this is more, yeah, some of those things that the prophets talked about, et cetera, about lending. What about interest loans to provide startup capital and a business venture? And you mentioned that. I mentioned that. If the interest rate does a little more than just counterinflation, how would you recommend capitalizing on business? So this is transitioning a bit from just giving to a needy brother, but more in a business sense. How does all this apply? I don't know. And like I said, you know, we're not going to be legalists about it. We're going to function in a very practical, reasonable way. But I think our whole mentality is that we don't make money with money. That should be our whole mentality. The anti-baptists said three principles that they tried to live. Number one is don't accumulate wealth. Don't invest money. The thing that they would have probably objected to as much as anything on this subject is making money with money. That means somebody else is working by the sweat of their brow to put money in your pocket and you're not doing a thing. And they were opposed to that. You must remember they had just come out of the feudal system. They all were very sensitive to that Lord who lived at the castle, the top of the hill, and had a bunch of peons living at the bottom, a bunch of serfs who were scrumping just subsistence living so that they could enjoy their wealth. And so they were extremely sensitive to this whole idea that if you use money to invest money, you are starting to get involved in oppression. And God hates oppression. He says, you grind the face of the poor. We have to understand that God loves a generous heart that wants to relieve suffering, that wants to use all our extra resources, not for ourselves, but for the benefit of people who have needs. And so that's the context in which we need to look at this. In terms of business, that should still be our mentality that we're not going to be using this to make money with money. That's not our purpose at all. So I'm sure there will be follow-up questions along the lines of this. This is one of the things I thought of if I could just read this here. So it sounds like you share some of the same concerns as socialists, economic disparity, harmful hierarchies, including within the church. Do you find yourself sympathizing with secular political theories? How do you respond to those who confuse your criticisms of unrestrained capitalism with socialism? And yeah, how do we split this apart? Do you think people will misunderstand what you're trying to say here? Well, this is very interesting because I answered the number on the camp billboards of the Christian Aid Ministry billboards. And so I talked to a lot of people who call in. And when I described the Kingdom of God, they sometimes have said, I think you voted for Bernie Sanders. Okay. So yes, the Kingdom of God looks very much like the ideals that you hear people like that talk about. Because we all carry in our hearts an idea that the ideal would be what these people are talking about. And so they're appealing to something deep in every heart, the communists, the Soviets or the Marxists. That's what I want to say. The Marxists use this from each according to his means to each according to his need. There's something in us that says that's right. That's what we want, especially if you're one that has needs. And so, yeah, that is exactly what they're talking about. Justice for everybody, equality for everybody. That is a deep sense in every heart. That's part of the eternity God has put in us. We know that's how it should be. And we all somehow desire that. But here's the problem until selfishness is dealt with. This is going to turn into a nightmare because a few elites are going to preach that and somehow the money will get into their pockets. And it will not be what they say it's going to be. And so I do not believe in secular socialism. It ends up being extremely impressive. It never works because selfishness is still there. The only solution to selfishness is Jesus. And so in the kingdom of heaven, you have this ideal, not ever completely realized, but credibly pursued. It comes out of a heart that does it voluntarily. It's not forced. If you try to force this, it turns into a nightmare. And there are many examples in modern history to show what for a horrible nightmare it turns into if it's forced. But if it comes out of the heart voluntarily, now we have something altogether different. This is real. Jesus is in it instead of just this humanistic ideal. And selfishness has not been completely dealt with. I'm sorry, we still struggle with it. But we have received the power to rise above it, to conquer it, and to constantly be pursuing the ideal. Thank you for joining us for this episode. And thanks to our donors and partners for making this possible. We publish essays on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. We also release these essays in narrated form as their own podcast called Essays for King Jesus.