 Hei, roryd i chi i'n gweithio gyda'r gyfnodol ar y cyfnodol ac yn ôl bob Cook wedi'i gweithio'r hwn. Fy hoed yw psychoedd, yn y cwrs. A ddweud cyfnodol o'r projectif identifuig. Yn ymgyrch? Mae'r projectif identifuig? Rhaid i'n gweld. Yn y projectif identifuig, yw cyfnodol a'r cyfnodol. Mae'n gwybod, mae'n gwybod, fel y cyflwynydd y fferdd, ac mae'n gweld fel Ffroid. Mae'r cyflwynydd sy'n gwybod. Mae'n gwybod a chyflwynydd y term, mae wedi gweinydd yr ysgol. Mae'n gwybod a'r ffroid. Rwy'n gwybod, mae'n gwybod, mae'n gwybod, mae'n gwybod. Mae'n gwybod a'r cyflwynydd yma, mae'n gwybod. OK? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you've got counter-transference, which if the person hasn't actually sorted stuff out, that's the therapist, may well transfer back onto the client some of the unresolved processes. OK. So, that sounds to me like you may be working with a client who reminds you say of their father, ac maen nhw'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny. Rwy'n gwneud hynny, rydyn nhw'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny ymlaen i'r tenner. A ddim ydych yn ychynig i'r clai, yna'r gwahoddiadau yn ei gweithio. Roedd yn ni'n cael ei gwaith i'r clai, rydyn ni yn unig i'r clai yma, rydyn ni'n clywed ar y clywed ar hynny'n gwneud hynny. Dyna, mae'r clwg ydw i'n gweinio, ac mae'n dda i'r ffer. Mae'r ddebyg, mae'n edrych a wneud i chi ddim yn dda. Rwy'n meddwl i chi, dwi'n credu ffyrwyr, gyflym i'r pwn i'r rhai, hanes yn gyfryddwyr yma, yn gwaith yn ysgrifennu. Fyddw i'r wneud yn y same ddigon i chi. Fy fyddwn ni'n gweithio'n gweithiau erbyn dweud i'r gweithwyr i chi'n gweithwyr. Mae'r gwahodd iawn o'r unig, dwi'n rhoi'r gwahodd iawn i'r clai. Mae'r gwahodd iawn. Rhaid, y gallwn gwybod y dylai ar hyn, mae'n gwahodd iawn o'r gwahodd iawn i'r gwahodd iawn i'r gwahodd iawn. Mae'r gwahodd iawn yn dda'r hyn yn ymgyrch. Fi'n meddwl ar y clywbeth a ddwy'r llwg hon yn ei ddwynghwyr. Felly byddwn yn ei meddwl yn cael ei gynhyrchu gyda'r cliants... ...egol, yn cael ei gynhyrchu. Ie, ac mae'r cyfioed yn clywbeth yn cael ei gynhyrchu. Mae'n ddim yn cael ei gynhyrchu. Mae'r ddwynghwyr yn cael ei gynhyrchu, yn cael ei ddwynghwyr yn arferio gyda'r fforddol. that's the first part in transfer projection. The second part, as I said, is the reaction back again, which is often called counter transfers. Yes. Okay. So let's take projective identification, okay, another part of transfers. Okay. So we've got the idea of projecting. Yes. All right. Okay. So projective identification is a form of counter transfers. I'll explain this a little bit more now. So you project onto the object, i.e. the therapist. Yes. The therapist identifies with the projection. Yes. Yeah, and that's, and if it's unresolved unconscious processes by the therapist, yes, they will enact back in response to the projection. So they identify with projection and then they enact out. Those are form of counter transfers. Okay. And it feels like a form of theatre as well. Say things you had a client, a female client working with a male therapist, and the female client, and this does sometimes happen, it happens the other way. It happens the other way. It might have a female therapist and a male client, but the female client starts to flirt with the male therapist. The male therapist has got unresolved issues around how he feels about engagement, romantic engagements with women, and therefore he acts from a place that isn't healthy. So in real terms, he may flirt back and he may kind of possibly cross the threshold. Yeah. And of course is particularly unhealthy for the client and usually a past enactment of the client's history. Yes. Let me give you another example of project by identification. But before I do, let's just say one thing. Okay. Let's look at projection again. Okay. Right. Clients will project usually feelings they don't want onto the other. So for example, someone who is depressed doesn't want the feelings of worthlessness, of valuableness, I say unvaluableness, anger maybe, passivity, futility, whatever those feelings are, they don't want to internally keep them. So through the mechanism of projection, will project those unwanted bad feelings onto the therapist. So the therapists hopefully, especially if they've worked out processes, will act as a container for those bad feelings. Yes. And therefore, and from that, the therapist stays an adult and will help work through that process. Okay. Now, if let's say that same scenario go, client comes into pest, projects out the feelings they don't want onto the object, ideas therapist. Yes. Now the therapist, for example, may have a depressed part of themselves. Right. They identify with the depression feelings of the client. So you've got projective identification. Then unconsciously, they act out in some way. So for example, if they don't want to feel the feelings that has been projected onto them because it identified with their own depression, futility, worthlessness, etc. Yes. They may act out in a way to intellectualize the depression with the client. So actually what doesn't happen, the therapist doesn't go towards the feelings which the client needs to go to. They've diverted away into an intellectual process about depression instead of going where they need to go to, because this therapist doesn't want to deal with their own fears of depression. Yes. Yes. And this comes down to the old saying that I sometimes talk to my training group about is a client can only go as far as a therapist is willing to go themselves. That's right. If there's anything unresolved for the therapist, this is territory where they can't access the feelings. So they'll try and think their way out of it. In this example, yes. Yes. Absolutely. And of course it can happen around thinking in reverse. Now, projective identification is usually a very primal process. So the feelings which the client doesn't want at an unconscious level gets projected out in quite a strong way. The identification, by the therapist again, and then they act out at a quite a real primal level here. So come out really strong counter-transference processes. Okay. So in practice terms, if we were to observe that, if we were to fly on the wall in the therapy ring, how would that look like? How would the client first of all act out what would that look like? The client? Yes. Okay. So let's take the depression again. Yes, okay. Someone who comes in depressed. Okay. They will act out often very flat monotone voice. Yes. Talking in quite bland syllables. Sure. Talking about matter of fact issues. Yeah. What they do is keep away from the feelings of futility, hopelessness, perhaps turned inward anger. Yes. Keep away from those feelings. And they talk about the depressions come on again, or I don't know what to do, or very reactive processes as the proactive processes. What they don't do is talk about those feelings particularly, and certainly not to take responsibility of those feelings to work them through. Okay. What they tend to do instead is project them out onto the therapist so they don't have to deal with the feelings of futility. So you're not going to see a cathartic expression of feelings with someone who's depressed. Sure. So in other words, you're not going to get people who are coming to kind of a, and I think a cathartic, I think of a transformation, a release of negative energy, and almost like putting this very heavy bag down and going in a kind of visual way. Instead of the therapist then helping the person take ownership or responsibility of those negative feelings, the therapist in some way goes to another zone, whether it's talking about thinking or talking about behaviour, or in fact talking about something else in an intellectual way, anything but looking at the feelings which have been identified, usually about the therapist's own depression. So it usually ends up, if I'm hearing this correctly, in a bit of an intellectual dialogue where the therapist is desperately trying to avoid their own histonic material and such is not connecting at any level with the claim. That's right. Now you may get a situation where the therapist identifies with the projection, but because they've been dealing with themselves, they understand it at some level, or they go, gosh, how come I'm feeling this all of a sudden? And they are able then perhaps to hold it because they know where it's come from and they don't act it out. Right. But it's the acted out projective identification which becomes the most problematic. So is there something around projective identification, that process for the therapist of being subconscious in there? Yes. And the secret of the success is bringing it into hearing now awareness? Correct. I'm working it through. Yes. And that, of course, is therapy. That'd be a co-created relationship where both parties can work through the co-created content at that time, which has been evoked, of course, from the client's past, or even in some cases the therapist's past, which hopefully they work through it, so hopefully themselves. Which is why it is such a good idea for students to have their own therapy. And supervision. And supervision. Supervision is essential to work that through. And sometimes, Bob, my students will say to me, do I really have to have therapy? I don't know if you have this. But there's nothing wrong with me. And I say to them, you know, it's not about what's wrong with you. This is an opportunity for you to reflect on how you are in the world. And maybe just pick up on stuff that you're unaware of, to bring it into awareness. And then once you get into awareness, to ask that question, Bob, how does this affect my practice? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, when people say things like, wow, there's nothing wrong with me. My heart often sinks. They were pissed to be saying that. In some ways, it's a really naive question statement. Because it's not so much about what is wrong with them, what they know, what may or may not be wrong with them. What's happening to their unconscious level? Yes. It's an exploration of the unconscious unaware parts of the self. That's the important part. Yes. I agree. And I rephrase it in this way. I say, have some personal development, external personal development. I do think there is sometimes a little idea maybe, a little fantasy idea that goes through students that they think, I wonder if, I wonder if Rory thinks I'm not quite right. I wonder if he's seen something that I don't know about. I say it's not about me analysing you. This is about you going and having an extended reflection with someone who can sit with you and kind of just think about how you are in the world. You see it would be odd, wouldn't it? It really would be extraordinarily odd that if a therapist wasn't touched, moved, had some sort of identification, but many of the existential issues, the client's being. Yes. That would be odd. Yes. Just in a human level. Yes. I mean, it's synchronous, you should say this. I'm here today, I have been earlier on, doing a bereavement course. Yes. And you know, one of the things that I've come to awareness is kind of my history of bereavement and how I am in the world with that. And you know, some of the material has touched me today and I'll tell that away and I'll think, well, if he's touched me and he's in my awareness, how is that going to be when clients bring up the material? And if a client walks into my whirlwind and says, do you know what I want to do with it today? It's my feelings of loss in life. Yes. And you've just been talking about what you just said on the training course today before, you know, a history of being evoked. That often is a synchronicity therapy. Yes. That your clients walk in the next day with the very things that have been evoked with you or you've been thinking about the biggest one. Absolutely. And, you know, that's happened to me countless times when I've either done courses or whether I've had my own personal therapy, I've come along and I've thought, oh, I was talking about that. So common. It is, isn't it? It happens all the time. It does. It does. And maybe we're heightened to that because of the material it just kind of connects to us or maybe that by taking our own personal development seriously, that we're more able to understand ourselves a little better. That's right. So the therapeutic implications of project, the therapeutic implications of projective identification are so important to think about because the biggest implication, of course, is, of course, through the projections of the clients and the unconscious identifications of the therapist, real therapy may never happen. All that usually would happen in that case would be an enactment of the clients of the therapist's history. Yes. Yeah. And in fact, without saying too much, I was in a training group today and that came up at Sean, like a beacon in the room where one of my trainees was saying, I just wish this client would get on with it. They were just like me in the past. Very odd Eastam, very encased discussion, bringing material. And what came of that was maybe a realisation of ownership by the trainee of I really need to access my own therapy and look at this in more detail. And that's just a wonderful thing, you know, and has to be congratulated. I think I've learned again so much, Bob, in this short interview and hope for the people out there for those of you who watch that that is really, really interesting. And if there's one thing that I'd say at the end of this is it's so important that we gain an understanding of ourselves. That's why we have process groups, sometimes known as personal development groups. And that is why we have our own therapy. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't echo that more. And my final plea is that when we're talking about these things, we're talking about very subtle unconscious processes. And therefore, we need our own therapy and our own supervision to help us in terms of working through some of these things, so that we don't, in an unwittingly way, enact out the processes that the client brings, because otherwise, not my therapy really happens. No, no, it becomes more of a chat. And worse than that, of course, it can reinforce some early life decisions of the kinds in a way where they don't power themselves, they simply reinforce those negative parts of themselves. So it's a really important process as we're talking about. It's a double bind because it reinforces them, reinforces those negative aspects of themselves while they're in therapy. Yeah. Well, Bob Cook, that is a wonderful exploration. Thank you so much for explaining that and taking the time to do that. And as always to the people who watch, thank you for watching. Thank you. Bye bye.