 Hello everyone, welcome to the podcast, episode 13. This is theCUBE pod. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, Dave. I'm in your house, I'm in Boston. We got a lot of stuff to talk about. We've been traveling, theCUBE's back in the season again. Great to see you guys. You guys are coming in. I'm glad you got the stack of Wall Street journals there. We're gonna- A lot of news this week. We're gonna dissect, I got my New York Times behind me online right here. Washington Post had a great article about Elon Musk turning Twitter into a right wing network. Meanwhile, their big DeSantis launch failed. Celtics game last night, you were at that. That's the big news. We're still alive, baby. History in the making. No team has ever come back from down 3.0 in the NBA, Eastern finals or anything else. VMware extends the deadline for the Broadcom deal. We were at Red Hat Summit, you were at Dell Tech World, Microsoft Build Conference happened. We couldn't make it up there. There was a data conference. Just so much going on, David. Just Ethernet turned 50 years old. So that's- Bob Metcalf, my former colleague. Yeah, we'll get a lot of stuff to dig into the queue. Again, the queue is in high season right now. The winds of change are swirling with AI. Again, AI continues to dominate the storylines in the tech. I mean, you know, it's going crazy when CNBC is running AI stories everywhere. And the way that, it's funny to watch them how they talk to mainstream financial buyers. They kind of dumb it down. We're a little bit further along than that. Here we go deeper. But they're doing a good job. I like the coverage. Love the AI drive. A lot of AI washing, pretenders, you know, saying, I got a service, it's AI enabled. You know, we even have some AI that we're working on. So I think there's going to be a very highly accelerated vetting process of pretenders and players. And unlike the dotcom bubble, it's going to be, it's going to be interesting. So we're going to dig into that too. But yeah, great to be in Boston for Red Hat Summit. You just came back from Dell Tech World. Yeah, I was at Dell Tech World and the big news there was Project Helix. It kind of buried it a little bit, but then it came front and center. But that was, to me, the lead is, and I asked, I asked, actually asked Jeff Clark and then, and then NVIDIA, Michael Dell interviewed Jensen. It was a prerecord. And then NVIDIA came on theCUBE with Dell. And I asked them, I said, would you have announced Project Helix? I think I asked Jeff Clark this, would you have announced Project Helix if it were not for chat GPT? He said, yeah, we would have. We've been working on this for a while. So it wasn't GPT washing at the same time. I don't think it would have got the attention of the audience. And then Jeff Clark had, he had DTW GPT and they had this kind of fake thing where he was talking to it. And that was kind of fun too. But it's everywhere. I'm sure it was at Red Hat Summit too, right? Front and center with Ansible. I mean, that was AI-powered Ansible. Ansible was this little acquisition that they did everyone in the- Lightspeed, right? Lightspeed, AI-based. They got AI, OpenShift, AI. I told you about that. I told you, I found that on GitHub. You did. You broke that story. We could have broken that story earlier. Didn't want to rain on their parade at Red Hat Summit. But Red Hat, Red Hat was bought by IBM for like $35 billion. Look at the number, maybe 25, 30, look at the number. Oh, that's right, 34, 35 billion. It was a big number. And IBM, Arvin was betting on Red Hat. And I think it's looking like it's going to play out. And they maintaining their roots to open source, they're keeping their Red Hat brand and vibe. Matt Hicks is the CEO. Took over for James Whitehurst. No, Paul Cormier took over for James Whitehurst. The guy started his career in IT. And he's been in open source from day one. He's now the CEO. Just a great story. He knows what he's talking about. Matt Hicks. You know, I saw Paul Cormier last summer down the Cape. I went down early. I used to go down and do my breaking analysis when I had a house down there. It's all torn down. But I saw him sitting at the bar. He and his wife. He was the nicest guy. He's got a house down there. And guess who? He looks at me. He goes, hey, I know you. He introduced me as the cube guy. The cube guy. Well, guess who? Who else knows? Stu Miniman, who had happened to run into the office. Hey, just saw Dave along. He's like, what? So again, love that company. Red Hat is just, I mean, they're just so transparent. And I think they could be a model. You know, someone said, you know, we always say, there never could be another Red Hat in open source. Well, I think there could be another Red Hat in open source. And it's Red Hat. You always used to say that. And Red Hat has longevity. And they still maintain their commercial position. And by the way, that's growing there. They got ecosystems growing. They had Ruba born on it. She was an AWS. She was keynoting at IBM there, showing some support. You had Dell has an appliance now with Red Hat on it. The cloud players. So you're seeing a lot of Red Hat commercial ecosystem, like from like a VMware type of role. But at the same time, they're also in the open source communities where they're driving a lot of the projects. So I think Red Hat could be a leadership case study. That's something I'm watching very closely with Red Hat because I think the open source world is going to be rocked hard by AI. Just feel it. I could see some early signs. I don't have the whole puzzle put together yet, Dave, but to me, I think AI is going to change the face of open source. I think open source software is going to change and evolve in a dramatically better way than it is today, just because it has to at the scale. So I think that's going to be an amazing story. We're going to continue to ride that. And you already see the cloud native content on SiliconANGLE.com up. You get the AI content hitting that as well. And we're up to about a million uniques a quarter of unique traffic. And it's really been phenomenal rise in our community numbers. So, and just the engagement been great. So. Do you want if I share a few other things from Dell Tech World? Sure. Yeah. So Satya came on remote. Jensen, I mentioned came on remote. James Cameron spoke. He was interviewed for like 45 minutes with Allison Dew. Did you know he goes by Jim? No. Yeah. He goes by Jim. She introduced him as Jim Cameron. I'm like, you call him Jim. She goes, yeah. That's what he goes by. Jim Cameron. He was amazing. He was like, so he really was engaging with the audience. And the thing was in the audience, the questions he got were unreal. And you know why? It's because a bunch of Dell customers came from the movie industry and they know all this technical stuff. They were talking, well, John's February has this technology. How does it compare with yours? It was, it was incredible. And then of course, a lot of APEC stuff, but they remember last year Project Alpine, which we loved because it's super cloud. Well, they turned that into a product to run in the cloud on AWS and Azure, I think GCP. And then they announced last year was Project Frontier, which is the edge management capability. They announced that. They got a common storage layer between those two and they announced Project Fort Zero, which is a zero trust security. So they're turning their projects, their R&D into products, which is a really good thing. And of course theCUBE was there, wall-to-wall coverage was awesome, three days, that was good. 13 years of Dell tech world. Yeah, this was our, let's see, I guess 14th year, right? Cause we started in 2010, EMC. And I was talking, my interview with Michael Dell, people should listen to that. He was really good. He was always good. That was a great interview by the way. What was the takeaway? You know what? So the most interesting thing to me was the last question I asked, which was essentially a long winded, if you were 25 today, what company would you start? You know what his answer was? He basically said, well, if I were 19, he was kind of correcting me cause that's when he started as his company. And I were in my dormant. I would really focus on the intersection between healthcare and tech. As I would go deep into the healthcare and do a startup around that, which is kind of, that was a- Yeah, and we were talking on your breaking analysis as a guest. Thanks for having me on your podcast about with David Floyer around where these changes have come from. All the verticals in the cloud scale, hyperscalers, so AWS, Azure, Google. And when we talk to those people and those companies, the leadership, they're seeing massive pickup in verticals, industries. So I think there's going to be a massive wave on healthcare life sciences. Obviously they're very tech savvy. They love compute. They love data. So I think compute data and AI will be a major pivot, pivot axis sees that people turn on. And I think there's going to be a lot of value healthcare in particular. There's so much to be refactored there. You know what I love about sitting down with you every week is because we have the historical perspective. We've both been around a while and I'm inspired by what I see Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger up there in their 90s. Charlie Munger's like 90, 90, he's still got it, but because they have that historical. Are we going to be billionaires and then we're sitting around shooting the breeze? I'm not. I'm retired anytime soon. Somebody asked me the other day, what do you and John want to do with your company? And I'm like, the Cube Global. He goes, oh, you don't want to just retire. I'm like, no, we're scaling. I told someone, I'm going to drop dead on the Cube. I'm going to die. I'm going to die on the Cube. But so the reason I bring this up is you remember Nicholas Negroponte during the internet wave. It was like bits versus atoms. Which industries are going to be most affected by the industry by the internet? It's going to be bits versus atoms. What's different about AI is every industry is going to be affected. It's not a bits versus atoms thing. It's not which industry. It's all industries. Yeah. And that's why I was watching CNBC today. You have it in the office. I love how you have that. To see how they talk to the masses. And they had Duncan Davis on who gave a great hot take. But a lot of hot takes out there come from people who have looked to a pattern matching. And I think we're at a time now where pattern matching doesn't work when I think AI is one of those ways where you can see the obvious thing. OK, replatforming and refactoring business and verticals. But I think you can't predict which company is going to win because whoever is leaning into this next wave has to ride it and kick ass with it. Like we talked about in the last pod. But I truly believe that there'll be new names that no one's ever heard of that are going to come out of the woodwork. And they might even compete against NVIDIA. NVIDIA is bogarting the market. And they're hogging all the profits. What's going to stop some collaboration between someone who's ex-Anna Purna and someone from ex-AMD get together and say, hey, let's start something. And let's go compete with NVIDIA hard and do something different. Who knows? Well, so I think, well, to me, NVIDIA doesn't get disrupted. I think they are the disruptor. And I think we called this, I mean, literally. Floyer called it in 2011. He called Intel as being in trouble. And then he and I, maybe a couple of years ago, said they're really, really, really in trouble. I didn't tell just, I mean, Pat Gelsinger, we love Pat. I mean, he's been a huge fan. But I just don't think. Pat's got something going against him right now. And that is that he hasn't been on the cube. And what's happening, his luck is turning against him, Dave. Well, he doesn't have you asking him, is this a cul-de-sac? It's like questions like that. Sell Intel stock. If you're buying, sell it, because it's going to drop like a rock until I guess there comes on. Everybody's saying it. But the thing is, they're just. He's probably too busy. You mean Joe Biden. But he's an amazing individual. He's been for somebody who can really get people focused, but they just got too many things going on. I mean, we were saying, give up foundry, focus on design. He's not doing that. He went in the opposite direction. He's doing everything possible. I think it's easy to throw darts at Intel right now. But I won't bet against Intel. They have a great brand. I think they're going to survive. Oh, I think they're going to survive. I think there's no question. I think it's going to happen. I think they could, well, I don't know. I mean, to me, they are a business that's going to last for a long, long, long, long time. And they can milk that. But do you see Intel getting back its leadership position? I mean, I do. I think it could happen. There's a lot of geopolitical things going on. You never know. And you've got a presidential election coming up. He's obviously in with the US, Biden supporting him. And who knows what's going to happen? I think there could be a wild card on there. So again, we need it. There's still you. The US needs it. Yeah, I mean, but I'll tell you right now, silicon. I would rather see the silicon angle. I would rather see Intel spin out its foundry business as a US-based company. Yeah, I think that. And I think that's the right call. I think they're really having, in my view, they've got a really tough road to hoe to try to be both foundry and design. Yeah, I mean, you wrote a great multiple stories on Intel that people should look up. That's really good. I mean, I think you got a good angle on that. Called ARM, called NVIDIA. We called Intel. We laid out those challenges. And sometimes people just don't want to press. I mean, look at Microsoft. They're pressing their advantage in AI with their build conference, but they're not really engaging with the media. Like they engage in scripted media. They're not going to press for these kind of things. Yeah, I mean, they let us, I mean, I won't say it. They're really scripted with the media. Everything's tailored. It's a show. They did an amazing job with OpenAI, that launch. I thought that was phenomenal. In fact, it was so good that it put AWS on their heels. So Amazon has to respond to promote the fact that they were in the AI business. So Google, who was number one in AI, they had to respond and they kind of fumbled it. It's like, hey, we're in it too. And then I.O., Google I.O. was pretty good. I thought they did a good job at Google I.O. But their first attempt at showing barred off was not that great. This plug-in concept of AI is pretty interesting. I still think that the foundational models with LLM, I think OpenAI is going to be pretty solid. I think that's going to be a very big. Well, you were saying on TV today, you heard somebody say basically that they've built the mode, the game's over. I don't believe that. Do you believe that? No, I don't think there's one language model that will rule the wall. I think they're going to be a winner. The question is, if they have a browser moment, are they Netscape? Remember, Microsoft killed Netscape. So Microsoft has a very strong DNA and competitive strategy with developers. And the stuff they're rolling out with OpenAI under that banner with Bing is solid. They got all the bells and whistles that developers love. Built-in automation, plugins, integrate their products, create sustainable competitive advantage across the portfolio. They introduced Fabric, the single integrated data analytics platform, which would be anything. Fabric was interesting. And I would fully expect Snowflake to respond to that, because they're trying to basically be Snowflake, be the Snowflake data cloud. And Snowflake's way ahead of them, but it's Microsoft. So you have to pay attention to Microsoft. And I think Snowflake's going to announce some stuff at Summit in June next month that it's going to be. Well, what's Microsoft's market cap? Are they larger than Amazon? So right now it's Apple is 2.76 trillion. Let's go through the top list. I know you got the list. Apple, 2.76, Microsoft, 2.5, Alphabet 1.6, Amazon 1.2, NVIDIA, 963 billion. So they're going to be a trillion air soon. And then Metta's down to 670. By the way, NVIDIA in 2022 is 400 million. Unbelievable, John. And Berkshire is now bigger than Metta. Berkshire and NVIDIA are bigger than Metta. And Metta was a trillion. Yeah, they're struggling. How was Dell's event? Did they have a lot of multi-cloud action? It was a ton of multi-cloud. Dell's doing super cloud, whereas I would say HPE is doing more hybrid. I mean, Dell's doing hybrid too, but Dell's vision, Jeff Clark lays it out. We're building this abstraction layer, Project Alpine, which is now, you know, APEX or storage for Azure and AWS, it's super cloud storage. And so they were all over that. And then their project frontier stretches out to the edge with that same common storage layer. So it was a lot of multi-cloud talk. The godfather of multi-cloud by design, Chuck Whitten was on the cube. So, you know, he was definitely touting that and his keynote and on the cube. And yeah, everybody was talking about it. Yeah, I thought the build conference, which is for developers, was all about AI. And they didn't have a lot of cloud. They weaved in Azure. They got Azure as a service. I think people there are seeing an uptake and I think Amazon's responding. So the co-pilot thing was announced for Windows 11, Fabric, and again, we'll see how the developers picked that up. What else? I mean, you got Splunk surprises and investors with stronger than expected earnings and revenue. That surprised me. I didn't think they were going to hit their number. Yeah, the subscription business is doing better, right? But still Splunk. Well, I heard they're increasing their prices to get more revenue. So I heard people from the field, but I heard Splunk wasn't doing well and that they had a lot of takeouts. People takeout campaigns from competitors, but apparently their earnings are up. I'm not up to speed on Splunk in terms of their mix of business, whether they have a lot of larger whales in their account. This is- They got a lot of competition coming in, right? There's Datadog, there's Elastic. They got some of these other smaller startups are going after them and everybody wants all these observability companies. They all want a piece of Splunk. Nutanix shares surges on earnings. They have an upbeat outlook. Nutanix is interesting. Workday stock is higher and they've got a former CUBE alumni over there, Carl Eschenbach, running Co-CEO and they got a new CFO, Zane Rowe. Oh, from VMware, yeah, right. Yeah, and they got Carl Eschenbach, Co-CEO. So Snowflake stock is down on misguides. You're all over that. Well, they were down and now they're up on AI sympathy today. So it's all right, it's like everybody's up. But yeah, they got crushed. It was really interesting. I mean, Slutman was basically saying, hey, we've seen these cycles before. It will end, but they are really like, in so many ways, like AWS Snowflake. They use similar terminology. The models are very, very linked. Snowflake, most of their business is on AWS. But more and more, they're doing some stuff with Microsoft. Not so much Google. Google's really not playing ball with Snowflake because Google's a competitor, right? They want BigQuery to be, if you want, if you want Google's best stuff, you got to go to BigQuery. Yeah, just a lot of stuff happening. Events coming up. We've got Databricks event. We've got Snowflake coming up. Hey, we got a ton of HPE Discover. We got our startup showcasing episode two. It's Cisco Live too. I mean, let's go through it. So we got Cisco Live in two weeks, right? Week after Memorial Day week. And then from there, we go to Reinforce, right? Yep, Reinforce. In Anaheim. I heard the numbers aren't strong there, but, you know, we'll see. And then I'm coming up to Palo Alto that week to hang with you. And we just do some stuff in the studio. We're doing some stuff in the studio for SuperCloud, which is July 18th. And then the following week is HPE Discover, and MongoDB, and then Snowflake Summit. Dot local. And then Snowflake Summit to round out the spring. And then we got SuperCloud on July 18th. Don't forget Databricks. And Databricks too, that same week. And we got SuperCloud July 18th. We got some other stuff going on that we haven't announced in July. And then we got some other stuff going on the first week of August. And then we got November. Oh, we got Google Cloud Next. When is that? That's end of August. The events are flying in so fast, we can update our weather. I'm going to spend more time in Palo Alto this summer than I am back here. That's not going to go well. I guess you're cubicle. Yeah, thanks. You have cubicle, but it sounded good. Yeah, you're rather welcome to hang out there. Just get a little Airbnb. Yeah, well, I usually don't fly in the summer until VMworld. The queue is back. Events are back. It's interesting. Events just like more and more bigger events. I think the big events are coming back. And then smaller company events. Everybody's going back to their more traditional elite VIP customer events or kickoffs, combo. What's a Mongo's doing with Dot Local? And CrowdStrike's doing it again. It would be a CrowdStrike. It would be a UiPath. Palo Alto's doing it too, the smaller events. Yeah, I mean, I loved it when the big cube rolls out. I mean, Snowflake will have a big monster cube there. How was attendance at Red Hat Summit? It was good. I think they had like 5,000, 6,000 people. So last year, they were purposely small. It was only like 2,000 people. They did the theater in the round at the Weston. Tell you, Dell Tech World had 10,000 people there, which it was as big if not bigger than last year. The Red Hat community, it's mostly open source. They're not really conference goers for Red Hat because Red Hat usually goes to events. And so Red Hat Summit's really more of the insiders and more of their top people. But what they did this year is they folded AnsibleFest into Red Hat Summit because they used to do two separate events because they're bringing in the Ansible Automation as front and center. They want to bring those customers and partners into the fold and give them a bigger platform. And certainly with IBM, I think that Ansible message, the product is going to surge because those customers are so loyal. I mean, the loyalty and the satisfaction they have with the product, they love it. And they've been doing automation for years. So playbooks, automating playbooks, perfect use case for AI. Low hanging fruit, totally operationalized already. AI fits perfectly into that. That's the kind of thing we're going to see out of the gate. These nice automation opportunities, well understood, heavy lifting. And I was joking because Andy Jassy has that famous line we always used to talk about when we interviewed him was undifferentiated heavy lifting. Amazon handles, it is handles all the undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, AI actually can do not only undifferentiated heavy lifting, but the differentiated heavy lifting. Yeah, that you couldn't do before. Well, this is why I think AI is going to be very cloud-like in its scale. So if you look at NVIDIA's market cap, they're approaching Amazon. I mean, think about that. Yeah, it could cross over. I mean, Amazon is huge, but AWS and NVIDIA, a card company, graphics card company from years ago, monster, right? So look at that's how fast things are changing and you know, you get a great product that scales up like that. I think if they put a graphics GPU cloud, that could fly. I can see that happening. So again, just it's just so dynamic that the winds of change are here, Dave. It's just incredible. And I think the dot-com bubble analogy that we were talking about on your breaking analysis with David Floyer was and this is what people talk about in the industry. It is the same as the dot-com bubble. And the overwhelming answer is yes, it is. However, the bubble will pop faster because it's easier to accelerate who's got what. People say, oh, I'm an AI company now. Like, what does that even mean? See, dot-com is slow, the gestation period before people found out it was fraudulent. It's a paradigm shift. Oh yeah, throw money at it. It took a while to percolate. Here, boom, you can smell it out like it's going to be high accelerated. In fact, Ali Ghazi was on CNBC basically saying the same thing this morning. So I think that's the general consensus is that it's going to be a lot of like, I don't know what it looks like. How do you tell a winner from a loser, the players from the pretenders and it's going to come back down to look at their product. Do they have AI in it or not? And are you an AI arms dealer? Are you an AI consumer? Are you building it into your application? So there's so many attributes of AI like the web, it's going to be hard for the average investor who's not technical to figure it out. So you and I were talking earlier about who made the money in the internet, right? They always say, pick in the axe companies, right? So who were they? I mean, we said Cisco. I mean, every EMC actually made a lot of money. People who made the servers and put them in data centers, the data centers which were the ISPs at that time was just like ex this communications comes like DigX was around at that time a variety of hosting companies because you had to host stuff somewhere. No one could build the data center out. No one has as big as like you would pack it. So I think the hosting companies emerged, the service provider area and the Cisco's who sold DSU CSUs to everybody and they're all servers. Sun Microsystems, a lot of people don't know HP, Dell. Yeah, they all cranked during the internet boom. You got funding, you had to build out, right? And so money comes in. And so I think with AI, Amazon will win, Azure will win, a lot of those suppliers to those Google funding, Google will win. Open AI is going to win. And then these new emerging layers are coming out. Financial Foundation Model Ops, they call FM Ops. So FM stands for Foundation Model. So Foundation Model Ops is a category training stuff. And then you get the foundation models for proprietary and open source. And then tooling on top of it, that's for the app developers. So you're seeing a whole new Foundation Model AI stack emerging that looks a lot different than the cloud stack. And look at how fast it's moving. It's just so fast. It's unbelievable. Meta got fine, did you see that 1.3 billion? Because they transferred data to the US and they're like, US government help, can we get some guidelines here? VMware extended the deal, the deadline for closing the Broadcom deal. So that's getting pushed out. It's interesting, a lot of hallway conversations about VMware and Broadcom. I think that when you think about the competitive environment that VMware is actually a bulwark against cloud dominance. Because you've got the hybrid cloud thing going on. You've got super cloud going on. Hoctane saying cross cloud, multi cloud is something that he actually wants to bet on, which I think means Tanzu doesn't get killed, which I thought was going to be scrutinized very heavily. The other thing is, and you might have heard this at Red Hat Summit, a lot of customers are saying, well, I'm a VMware customer, but I'm looking at alternatives like Red Hat, just to hedge my bets. Even Dell, Dell CIO, we even told us a couple of weeks ago on an analyst call, yeah, we're hedging our bets too. They were like VMware's cousins for a while. So they're like, yeah, we're a big VMware shop, but we're looking at alternatives, you never know. So I think actually the Broadcom VMware deal is going to create more competition. Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely true. There's two things I'm looking at right now with the Broadcom deal. One is scoops like Amazon and they're building chips while they do abandon those or not. That's one story I'm working on. The other thing I'm looking at is how fast does virtual machine conversion from VMs to containers and Kubernetes? So Cloud Native has got a really strong momentum with containers and Kubernetes. How fast is the enterprise shifting off VMs to that environment? And they're not moving that fast, although there's a number one use case in what I'm hearing from people close to situation. Now, with respect to Broadcom's interest in cross-cloud. Hold on a second, before I started to interrupt, but that Broadcom AWS rumor that's floating around, there was a similar rumor about Apple and Broadcom. Did you see that? Yeah, they actually closed the deal. And they closed the deal, that your guy from UBS said it could be worth 15 billion by mid-end of the decade. Yeah, Apple did a multi-year billion dollar deal with Apple for the chips. The reason I bring that up is is it AWS just trying to negotiate, right? And ultimately going to do a deal? I think Broadcom has a very like NVIDIA leverage on supply chain and quality products. So Broadcom makes a very strong product. I interviewed a lot of the Broadcom engineers for the ISC in Hamburg just a couple weeks ago and just launched the pre-records. Broadcom isn't just a chip company, it's got a fabric, right? It's not, it's differentiated. It's hard to replicate. Now, Amazon has probably got a huge sales order coming in from Broadcom, but we just jacked the prices up. If that's the way they work and Broadcom does do that from what we report, Amazon's gonna say, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. You're charging a tax, so they'll get something going on. So my guess is, and what I've heard is they have an initiative to replace that Broadcom. And I heard that they're abandoning it. So we'll see, I don't know. It's not confirmed yet, but again, Broadcom has good product like NVIDIA, and they're doing well. They're competitors in the NIC space. Remember, NVIDIA bought Melanox. And so they're all about Infiniband, right? Like Larry Ellison used to be. And Broadcom, of course, the Ethernet. Okay, Ethernet is 50 years old, turn this week, 50 years old, okay? Ethernet has an ecosystem, right? And Infiniband is, come on. You can't compete with Ethernet. I was talking to Floyer about this. I said the same thing. I'm like, Ethernet's gonna just keep getting better and better and better. He goes, yeah, but Infiniband is good. It's fast. That's why Melanox, Melanox, or... The simplicity of the design of the layering of technologies built on top of it made a big difference. If you look at what Broadcom's doing on their products, they have that same approach. They use the standard and they're layering stuff in and around it. So, yeah, they got a better product. And the ecosystem is there. And they got the vertical and horizontal integration. So, I'm very high on Broadcom stock, by the way, too. I think they're gonna be another NVIDIA pop. Well, I mean, I mentioned that a while ago. I did an analysis of all the semiconductor stocks. Remember, John, the semiconductor stocks were coming back. They were bouncing back. I had Ivana Dilevska on, breaking analysis. Was that a harbinger? And I was like, you know, look at these guys. At the time, I was like, if anything, NVIDIA looks like it's overvalued. Of course, the stock's done nothing but run up since then. And I said, Broadcom looks undervalued, just from a pure valuation standpoint. But NVIDIA's up on the AI high. But my Broadcom VMware comment, though, I got a little distracted with NVIDIA there, but if the one speculation everyone's looking at, will Hoctan keep VMware or not? Will he do what he did to CA versus that? So, the question is, will he keep it? Yeah, he's gonna keep it. Well, keep it, not break it down to its bare bones. So, the story that we're reporting on SiliconANGLE is there's momentum with Hoctan to keep VMware. He's buying. You mean intact. Let me keep it intact. He's buying the vision of SuperCloud, basically, and cross-cloud services, which is cloud-nated. That's the word that he's, you know? Yeah, so he'll log in, and he feels like there's an opportunity there. But here's the tell sign. If, and I'm hearing some rumblings, not confirmed but rumors, that a lot of engineers are leaving VMware. No, that could be just VC's poaching talent. But the question is, if there's churn at the engineering level, that's not gonna bode well for VMware maintaining its domes. They need to have people in there building the products they're known for their technical acumen. But Broadcom has engineers out the wazoo. I mean, that's what they do. They're semiconductor guys. They are, but now they're software guys too. We'll see. Again, again, we'll, Well, that's what we're doing. No, I know what you're saying. They're engineers or semiconductor people. Yeah, that's true. I'm not sure they can go right over and start doing cloud and slinging cloud-natives code. That's my point. They'll have to either maintain those. They'll have to retain those. You're right, you're right. They'll either have to retain those people from VMware or bring them in. Yeah, we're working on it. That's what I'm staring at right now. But that's the way I see it happening. But I do agree with you that there is competition. I mean, Nutanix is up. You got Splunk out there. She got Snowflake. You got a lot of players that can come in and start eating the lunch of VMware's core business vSphere and take over the new wave with cloud-native and AI-powered services. So again, it's going to come down to what the install base is doing under the buyer. You've got the data on your breaking analysis as if they're showing a momentum on spend, then VMware's going to be solid. VMware is like a utility. Their customers love VMware, the vSphere, and with the promise of cross-cloud and multi-cloud, I think VMware's got a legitimate shot at being that control plane. So, but everybody's trying that. Everyone's trying to be the control plane for multi-cloud. It's going to be a land grab. So, first one who can swim out to the dock first gets the prize. Well, and look, as much as we were talking about before about people thinking about alternatives, VMware's a durable business. I mean, they talk about a moat. I mean, they have built up a 20, 25-year moat that's pretty solid. I mean, IT people, they, VMware's good. The product's good. People like it. The processes are built up around it. It is. It has become, John, the software mainframe. What Merit said, you know, whatever it was 15 years ago, that has happened. And so that is a durable business and Broadcom likes to, of course. So, there's a survey I saw Ray Wang's tweet and the Sarbjit weighed in too. Sarbjit? Sarbjit is in there. Sarbjit is in there. So, there's a question. When will cloud computing take over on-premise computing past 50% share? According to a 2022 report by Gartner, 60% of workloads are still on-premises while 40% are in the cloud. CCing, Dave lives in Ray Wang, Sarbjit. I missed this. Within one year, two and a half, three years, Ray Wang, my point, I'm growing into the period never camp, repatriation is picking up steam. Who said this? Ray Wang. He's a repatriate. He's a repatriate. Ray Wang is a repatriate. You repatriate you. I'm going to tweet that in right now. You repatriate. Yeah, that's good. Got a CC fitzy, if you're going to do that, right? I hate autos. Correct. So, but definitely CC at Charles, what is it? Charles Fitzgerald? Is it asked Charles Fitzgerald? I'll tell you what it was. At Charles, Fitz. I think it's Charles Fitzgerald. It's Charles Fitzgerald, yeah. So, I love his stuff. I quote him all the time. He's so good. So, I wrote a piece, I've written two pieces now in the last month or so. First one I did is don't be fooled by slowing cloud growth. Cost optimization is a feature, not a bug. However, and then the second one was desperately seeking cloud repatriation. In that post, in that second post, John, I had some data that I think is pretty interesting, you know, because we know we got the ETR data. So, it shows, we just say Gartner was, so here's the thing I've been talking about, is Andy Jassy says that 90% of the workloads are still on-prem. I've been hearing this for three or four years now. And it's just, I don't believe it. I don't think it's true. And so, the ETR data shows that somewhere around 48 to 52% is in the cloud today. So, nowhere near 10%. All right, way, way higher. The other thing is, the most striking thing that I wrote about was only 14%, this is a survey done late last year, only 14% of the respondents said they're all in on public cloud. And they asked how that's going to change in the next three years, flat. So, the point is the world's hybrid. And your snowflake data, by the way, too, on churn. Yeah, yeah, there's no churn. There is no churn. Cloud is here. It's only going to grow. Definitely not a very patriot. I have Amazon data, I have AWS data on churn, too. You want to know what it is? Yes, I do. AWS, this is for me, too. My point, I consider hybrid cloud, public cloud. See, cloud churn, 2%. Yeah. Okay, here, Google, Google churn. Now, this includes some of their software, 4%. How about Azure? You want to see Azure and Microsoft? I like this ad hoc. I'll give you Microsoft right now. Microsoft churns 1% right? No churn in the cloud. This is not happening. Yeah, well, the spend. The spend compression. Churn defined as lost customer. Yes, the spend compression because people are dialing down consumption. That's what I wrote. Don't be fooled. That's a feature that you can dial it down because what people are doing is they're optimizing. They're saying, okay, we're going to move to lower cost gravitan. We're going to move to lower cost storage tiers. We're going to sign up for better pricing plans. So think about the pricing plans. It goes on demand, spot, reserved instances, and then optimize plans where you're locking yourself in for a year or three years even. And all of that is going to reduce short-term revenue, but what's it going to do, John? It's going to increase the area under the curve over time, right? Math guy, you know what I'm talking about. It's a lifetime value with a customer. I think it's really smart by Amazon and the other cloud vendors to do this. Now, here's what's interesting. There's the big question that I have. Will all this large language model and GPT and all this AI, is that all going to run in the cloud? I think the answer is no. A lot of the HPC stuff. You did ISC with me, right? I talked to a customer at Dell Techworld. They had half a million cores running in this data center. He goes, I'm not going to do that in the cloud. It's too expensive. So a lot of these generative AI and large language models are going to even open AI, runs most of that stuff, I think, in a data center in Ohio. So a lot of this stuff is going to run, and to Floyer's point today in breaking analysis, a lot of it's going to be AI inferencing at the edge. So what does that mean for the cloud guys? How are the cloud guys going to play there? It's going to change the unit economics across the board. It'll still won't change churn. It'll be a spend game and then new services. It's going to be who's going to build the next app. So I think the AI waves can actually help the hyperscalers. And the question is, will Amazon optimize for that? Or they optimize for trying to be a cost optimized player? That's the question. Because if Amazon, eight of us dials back their mojo just to kind of save money and make the numbers, they might lose the opportunity. So you want to be optimized for this next wave of startups. Remember, Amazon Web Services made their bones by helping companies establish SaaS. For the same reason why that tax we talked about for the web startups was, buy a server, get a data center, all that upfront costs. Amazon made the market. So if they can make that same exact point, this is what I talked to Swami about who heads their AI, if they can go to the AI market saying for the same reason why you didn't want to provision servers in a data center for SaaS, why do you want to spend all this money for compute GPUs for your large language models and foundation models come to Amazon? So I think you'll see more services that will build on that. If they optimize for that from a startup standpoint like hugging faces of the world. So experimentation and then help get them to a point where yes, give them access and lift, create that lift. The startups that are going to come out of the woodwork are going to be ones that are misunderstood. Kind of agree with you there, John. That's a 20 something year old Steve Jobs out there, Bill Gates, Andy Grove, they're out there. We don't know who they are yet. There'll be unicorns will come out of this wave that no one's ever seen before. And the existing companies like Salesforce, CrowdStrike, Okta, C3AI, Broadcom, Zscaler, MongoDB, Dell, HPE, they're all going to either win or get washed away. I want to give you more data. I got a great DR at my fingertips. So you said you think the cloud guys are going to win an AI. So who are the leaders in AI today? Three leaders, Microsoft, AWS and Google. This is in terms of spending momentum on their platforms and their share of voice, their sentiment. So it's Microsoft, AWS, Google. And then behind them is Databricks. Databricks, a lot of spending momentum there. It's seen as a leader in ML and AI. And then you got Oracle, you got IBM, they're kind of down lower and sort of legacy stuff. Data robots up there, H2O AI, way, way, way behind in terms of sentiment. And then when you switch to the emerging tech vendors, these are private companies, open AI off the charts. And then of course you get Databricks. TensorFlow is not a company, but it's very popular. Anaconda is kind of a mix of a company and an open source platform, H2O.ai. Again, DataRobot is in there, DataIcu, Huggingface. Huggingface has a lot of momentum right now. I know it's a company that you've interviewed a number of times and several others. But so to your point, I think you're going to have these emerging companies come out of the woodworks and the big AI players, the big three clouds are going to dominate. They're going to do really, really well because they have the tools, they have all the infrastructure and they got the data's in there. And so here's another point, just a riff on that. So Amazon, we've been saying that this history moment of the industry has a couple of things that didn't have before, big hyperscale cloud players. So let's factor this in. Large scale data, large scale compute power. Edge is developing, so hybrid operations. AI survives because there's now all that in place. In fact, Bob Medcalf who was at the Computer History Museum celebrating the 50th anniversary of Ethernet, which he invented, actually had a quote when I was going to bring it up on the pod, but here it is, Ethernet co-inventor Bob Medcalf on why AI moment may be different this time. He says, quote, I've been watching AI come and go, come and go and come and go. Like it just, oh yeah, it gets hyped up. The model's always run out of data and AI goes mainstream, goes into remission for a while. There's a chance it won't happen this time because it's the internet. So you have apps, you have the internet, you have all this data coming and now it's there. Compute, unlimited data opportunities. Unique data that's vertical and horizontal. I mean, we've been saying this on the queue. I mean, what year do we say? Horizontally scalable, vertically differentiated. This is exactly why AI's going to win. This is exactly why Azure jumped on open AI. That's why Microsoft's doubling down on generative AI because the hype cycle matches the market. There's sizzle and stake on the grill right now. So if you want to get reals not hyped with fraud, it's hyped with reality. So I think AI is going to be one of the biggest waves we've ever seen so far today. I think it's going to be the biggest. And then, and on the, reminds me of the repatriate thing, this is why I actually think the edge can be a real wild card because you got companies like Dell is some sort of fresh off of Dell Techworld but I put HPE in there as well. You know, Cisco, Lenovo, et cetera. They're doing exactly what you said with their infrastructure. Horizontally scalable. I asked Jeff Clark this. I said, was there ever a discussion about going, because the edge is so fragmented and vertically specific. Was there ever a discussion about actually going deeper into verticals and maybe focusing on that, putting resources there versus that horizontally? Because of course there was a discussion. I said, well, what was that like? He goes, it didn't pass the Jeff test. So his point was, we have to be horizontally scalable. We have to have partnerships to go deeper into those verticals. I'm sure HPE is thinking the same way. I'm going to find out at Discovery. Yeah, and so this is why I took a lot of heat from my comment when I said the half stack developer is the modern developer. Because remember back in the day, for all my full stack developer, I can do everything from up and down the stack. Half stack was the horizontal, basically cuts the stack in half. So you only got to worry about the application. That's exactly what's happening right now in cloud native. The best companies are highly productive when they're programming infrastructure as code, which is the cloud. And now you got super computing, super cloud happening, where now you're talking about silicon advances. So this almost matches the same pattern, not that I'm going to go back and be pattern matching, but there's a comparable. The OSI Open Systems Interconnect model had the physical layers first, data link, and then you saw that cut off at TCPIP. So layers three and four were where the standards were. Everything else was for developers. It could be okay and flex. That's why Ethernet was successful. The industry moved from vertical to horizontal simplicity, very modular, had to be differentiated and sustainable. And that was Ethernet was probably the first example of a horizontal technology that actually was just simple. And token ring was only two megabits per second. Remember that those days. So I think we're seeing a lot of comparables on these inflection points is when you can get some horizontal scale that can be layered in and innovated on top of, that's what I see happening in AI. I don't see anyone yet in place. Databricks nor snowflake on the data side that can handle this. I think the opportunity will be from a new entrant or with hyperscales will enable someone and then figure out how to make them, their search is better with that. Just like what Microsoft did with Open AI was a co-op, they embraced it and they extended it. Yeah, I mean they, they from a business model standpoint, they just cut the line and went right to the lead. It was pretty amazing. But you know, to the point about pattern matching, you're right. On the one hand, pattern matching, especially if we've got a good historical perspective is important because you've got a, you've learned from your wisdom. On the other hand, if you get, locked into pattern matching, you think that the past is prologue and it's not. And I think that we've been talking about it all day here. AI inferencing at the edge is really what's going to drive this thing. And I think, I think Floyer's right. I think Apple's got it right. I mean, there's a lot of AI inferencing going on here. Then the GPU that's inside of this thing is for the screen. Right? It's not, they use the NPU, the neural processing unit to do some of the heavy lifting. Tesla is similar. Now, you know, obviously, you know, Jensen talks about this. This brings the question of what we've been saying. Again, we'll repeat it here. And this is quasi-rand, but the point is in these new markets, is Clay Christensen's innovators dilemma truly in play here? Or is that thrown out the window? Is all his teachings irrelevant in this new modern era? We should ask Andy Jassy, who was in his class and see what he thinks. But I think, you know, there's a plausible argument to say there's both sustainable advantage for the big guys and disruptive enabler for the startups. Now, I think personally that we're more like the web early days because in disruptive technologies, it's not yet mainstream and people are bitching and moaning, oh, it's not real hallucinations. You know, regulate it. So I think the fact that AI is not fully baked scares people, but the reality is that the startups will see it early. They got the vision. You get a founder, like a young founder. They'll build on it. And when it does go mainstream, they capture the rents. So the startup that was misunderstood, laughed at, small, get some funding, they focus on an area and make it better, they improve it, they bring it to the mainstream and they ride that wave and they make money like Apple, like a Microsoft. Those companies were small and insides knew who they were, but mainstream was laughing at the web and computing. You know, it's interesting to go back to something that John Chambers first heard it when you were interviewing him at his Palo Alto home. He said, there is no entitlement. He worked at Wang, right? And he remembered Wang and DG and Digital and Apollo. They were hot, I mean, prime. These were the hottest companies on the planet, people. I mean, you never even heard of them, right? But, look at Microsoft. Microsoft at one point was teetering on irrelevance. In fact, I would argue that Microsoft for a long time was irrelevant, nobody cared what Microsoft did. IBM almost died when it gave its monopoly away. Look at Apple. Apple almost ran out of money, okay? So my point is that these companies learned from those mini computer deaths and other failures and they were able to survive. Now, maybe in the case of Microsoft, they had such a huge margin. Well, Microsoft stock was at 26 at one point. Now they're like the most valuable company in the planet. So, this is the thing that people, I think, can't compare the old pattern and matching to the current. Back then, those incumbents were beat because it was much slower to make change. The old joke used to be they moved like battles, aircraft carriers, not a nimble warship and it was slow to move a big company. Today, the pivot factor is much easier. If you're in the cloud as an enterprise, you can pivot faster. So if you have smart managers that, well, we're either gonna get on this wave or we're gonna be dead, they go, okay, time to death. You know, you got two years and six days, fix it. Everyone, alert, code red, go. I think Google's going through that right now. We'll see if Google can come out of their code red. And so I think the excuse that incumbents will die, that's easy to predict in a slower market, but I would say right now, an existing company, good management and technical people could pivot on the wave. And that's going to be interesting to watch. And that's going to be a function of who's got their head in the sand, who's run by private equity, are they run by good management? So it's going to be a tell sign. Yeah, so, and then what's going to happen with Intel? You know, are they going to go the way of, the good way of Microsoft, Apple, even IBM. IBM was sort of teetering on irrelevant and then it buys Red Hat. Well the question is, does Pat Gelsinger have the moves? He's got the moves. He's got the knowledge, but does he have the right stuff? He's got the moves. I just think they're too unfocused and it's too late, unfortunately. And so I think he's going to give it the college try and he's, hey, he's proved us wrong before. I think, but this is a much tougher task because it's not software, it's semiconductors. And it just, I've said this, I'm going to say it again, I haven't said it in probably a month. Semiconductor, volume is everything. And it doesn't have, why is it so people, maybe most people don't realize this, NVIDIA has an arm-based architecture. Why? Because it's cheaper, it's standard, you can get the tape out much faster. TSMC knows how to build this stuff. They give them the design, they know what's going to work, it's standard. Intel, you know, to get the tape out, it just takes much, much longer. And so the problem is, for Intel, is that wafer volumes in arm are 10x those of x86. And so they just don't have the economics anymore. Those economics changed, flipped when PCs peaked in 2011. So what's Pat Gelsinger's favorite quote on theCUBE of all time? If you're not on that next wave, you're going to become Driftwood. You're going to become Driftwood. So he's definitely got Intel on the waves. He knows that he has to surf this wave, get through that economics, otherwise he's toast. He knows the semiconductor business inside and out. He's amazing from that standpoint, but they're still too unfocused. They got a, in my opinion, they're still going to have to rethink. We're kind of getting into a rant now. So let's get to the rant section, our rant of the week. What is your rant of the week? Mine is, I'll start off first. My rant of the week is the whole Elon Musk Twitter fail. I didn't see all that. You were in the Twitter room. Well, first of all, my rant is the Washington Post wrote an article, which I don't agree with. Some people might not like my opinion of this, but I do not think Elon Musk is building a right-wing Twitter proof social rumble clone, even though that David Sacks recently sold his chat company, podcasting company to Rumble, which is a right-leaning YouTube wannabe. I think Elon Musk actually wants free speech from the people I talk to that some people just hate Elon Musk's amount of weapon. I think it's wrong to assume that he's building a right-wing media venture. That's what the Washington Post politics section calls him. And the Santos decision was to announce his presidential run on Twitter. And of course, Elon was going to kick off of spaces. Now, Elon was pulling big numbers. When Elon Musk would do at Twitter Spaces, which is their voice chat thing, like a clubhouse, it pulls big numbers. He pulls millions of people. So the all-in podcast, which I love, I like those guys, Jason Calcans is very cool. Sacks is great. Those guys do a good job. They were pumping up like crazy. Oh, he's coming up on my arm. Basically, they can, not this podcast, but Twitter Spaces and Elon, they're pretty tight. All-in guys are tight with Elon. So people assume that it was a right-wing action and plus he's right-wing. Dave, it crashed. It was crashing. No way. The spaces that started had glitches from the minute it started. They were scrambling and everyone was on there. I was on there and there's my picture next to the Santos, the Ingram angle, what's-her-name was on there, all the media was on there, all the big press people. And it was a press event and it kind of didn't do well. I think when I was on there, they had 255,000 concurrence. And Jason was predicting, Jason Calcans was predicting five million. Wow. I think, personally, my conspiracy theory. I heard David Sachs, he was like high-fiving. Said it was fantastic. It was great. Of course, he was the one hosting it. I don't mind that, Sachs. So I'm glad he had that scoop. But the point is, it wasn't the numbers they wanted. And I personally think it was a DDoS attack. I think there was some action. I'm waiting to see if it was just a shit platform, but this is a real black eye for Elon Musk because he prides himself on being with the product genius and that he's cutting slack on the organization and cleaning up the tech chops. But it was a huge embarrassment for Amazon, I mean, for Twitter. It was not a good look. And then, obviously, DeSanto's hopes. I mean, you were- What was he like? What was his rap? It was a stump speech, basically. It was supposed to be authentic. Get with the people, you know? It was just weak. What do you think of him? You're a fan? I don't know yet, you know? I don't like how- I don't trust some of the narratives, so I don't know him. I haven't researched him. I don't like how they're- I didn't like what he did with Disney because I love Disney, but I think that was just more press breaking it out of proportion. So people don't like him. I'm not sure if he's got the stomach to go to distance because he can't even go up against Trump. I think we need someone who's gonna be able to go toe to toe with Donald Trump and be able to handle themselves, not wimp out like last election. You had, what's his name? Bush, Jeb Bush. He folded like a cheap chair. I thought that was weak. I think the Republicans gotta do a better job, put a name up there. Yeah, someone who's a centrist, someone in the middle, I like, but I don't want the right wing, you know? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Just have to say, he doesn't grab me. I mean, he's kind of like Trump with a brain, which means I like some of his policies, you know? Man from Florida is running for president. Florida man is running for president. But I'll listen to like podcasts of individuals and I'll try to, you know, stick with them. The hashtag was de-saster. De-saster. Like a disaster. I was listening, I mean, he was interviewed by, who's the British guy who does those long form interviews? And I just, I got halfway through him, like, enough, I can't take it anymore. The problem I have with the politics is that it's all talking points. That's why I kind of like this all-in podcast, what they're doing, because they're at least stoked on the conversation and they're transparent about their politics. I mean, David Sacks is like, he's like, hey, I'm right-wing. I'm a right-leaning person. Calcanus is like more of a centrist. Yeah, they do a good job. They got, it's funny though, sometimes, I mean, they're very knowledgeable individuals and then sometimes they go into a space that I know really well and I'm like, they don't know what they're talking about. But, but I, but I presume they don't know the enterprise, we're, we're the enterprise podcast. But I presume they do know, I mean, they know economics well and the one guy knows science really well, Freeberg and, and they're entertaining. Jason's good. Jason, I got to give it. You used to work with him, right? Yeah, Jason, he did a podcast when I was at the pod tech and Jason's a good guy. He's a loved media. He hustles. He's a guy, he's from New York area. He's opinionated, which I don't mind. And he tells it how it is. Some people don't like him at all, but you know, I've never had an issue with him. He's got a family, he's a family guy and you know, he's got a successful podcast. He built that thing up. I think that pod, I think there are 200 episodes now, but they're pulling big numbers. And I think he's right about the numbers. They are rivaling these cable news outlets. And I think, you know, Rob Hope and our team was giving me some stats for this podcast that the media people are poo-pooing the numbers in it, but it is comparing Apple star oranges and DeSantis' numbers, even though small on the 250,000, the time on site, no one stays on, watches on Twitter, but they want that more. So Twitter's not to be compared with TV, but if you still reach five million people, it's asynchronous. So it's like, it's a whole nother thing, right? So. Plus there's a long tail. It's not. The mainstream media doesn't get to, right? So my rant is punching up a school for the Twitter spaces, but they overplayed their hand and this whole trying to brand Twitter as a right-wing network is, I think, a little bit ridiculous. And I think Elon has to, to your point, on multiple pods, you've been saying, they got to get more point counterpoint on there. Yeah, immediately. I mean, I guess I'll follow up with that rant. One of my favorite shows when I was a younger man was the McLaughlin Group, right? McLaughlin Group. He was a hardcore right-wing Republican. He worked in the Nixon administration and other Republican administrations and anybody would create this balance, right? He would get a couple liberal people. He'd get somebody who was down the middle and they'd hash it out. And you'd hear it. And that's why I do like those guys on the all-in because they do get different perspectives. And I think that that's what we try to do in theCUBE as well. It was like, okay, well, that's what we did today with Floyer on Breaking Analysis. We'll be publishing that this weekend. And this is good Twitter meme going on with the repatriation thing. I just chimed in. A lot of people say never. I think Edge is the wild card there, right? I think Edge could be the tipping point for a lot of these sort of on-prem companies. I think the problem is they just don't have the pace of innovation that the cloud companies do. But hey, John, you know as well as I do, you start to get big, innovators dilemma, start to get bogged down, it takes longer to move. Can they keep moving as fast as they can? It's leadership, it's leadership, man. I mean, I remember, I so clearly remember when I was young, when the web hit, it was so obvious to many of us, we're like, okay, this is obvious. And not obvious to many others. We were scratching our heads saying, how could people like seniors not get it? They just weren't paying attention, Dave. They weren't actually on it. Same with the cloud, right? And so, there were cloud deniers for the longest time. Carl called Amazon a bookseller, and he tried to, VMware tried to launch its own cloud that failed miserably. Pat was in charge then. We're gonna do this. And then they figured it out, it took years. The OpenStackle had a big promise. Remember, then Amazon started growing. You look at Amazon's stock price, 2012 and 2013 was the kick up. The slope really ramped up. And I think that was the early years when you saw a real value kicking in. And then, in 2010, it was just like, ah, just do it yourself. But yeah, that's tough. All right, Dave, great to see you. Let's wrap it up, our podcast here for episode 13. Of course, go to siliconangle.com, it's growing. We've got a great community there. The cube.net to find out where the cube's gonna be. It's a great site to check out what's going on there. We've got videos there as well. It's kind of on-demand environment as well as our YouTube channel. But SiliconANGLE is a site you wanna go to for all the news, real-time reporting, opinion, analysis on siliconangle.com. And that community is growing. Ask us anything you want there. And hit us up, tell us what you think. And if you have seen any guests out there you think we should be bringing on, let us know. Dave, that's wrapping up episode 13. I'm in Boston. All right, go Celtics. Got the hat. Thanks for watching. Knock wood. See you next time.