 Hello, I am Anna Farka, writer and producer, and I invite you to talk in tandem on how I show depicting relationship. Today, guest are Professor Sam Wagner, author of Malignant Self-Love, Narcissism Revisited, and his lovely wife and editor, Lydia Arangelowska. Some team hold from New York Press called you the leading expert on Narcissism. I'm guessing that just a small part of it is sustained by your personal experience and a lot of it is sustained by the thousands of interviews you made around the years. Could you please walk us through your journey with Narcissism? Yes, I was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. I've been diagnosed twice, once in the 80s and once in the 90s. The first time because of a woman and the second time because of prison, and I can't see the difference usually. But the first time my fiancé had abandoned me in the United Kingdom, so we had agreed to go to couple counseling in Canada and workplaces. So we were traveling to Canada every week from the United Kingdom, and there an Israeli psychologist who was then residing in Canada diagnosed me with narcissistic personality disorder. This was 1985. This was only five years after the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder was first formally recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Edition 3. No one knew anything about it. There was nothing written about it. No one knew what they were talking about. So it was very difficult for the psychologist to explain to me what my problem was. He just said, you seem to fit the criteria. So I dismissed him, of course. I devalued him. I said he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's not credentialed. I know much more about psychology than he does, plus I'm much better looking. So, and that was the end of that. Then in 1995, I found myself in prison. I used to be a very big businessman and I owned a bank and I misbehaved with the bank and I found myself in prison and in prison it was obligatory to be evaluated by a psychiatrist in order to go on probation, on parole. So I was interviewed by a psychiatrist and he told me, listen, you have narcissistic personality disorder. That was a lot later. That was already 1995. There were already some studies, not many, 92, 94. There were a few studies, maybe five, maybe 10 and I'm not exaggerating. That was the maximum. And so I had some literature to start with. And then I went backwards. I had a disease. I had cancer of the soul and there was no written literature. I needed to understand what was wrong with me because I lost my wife and my life. I lost my money. I lost my reputation. I lost everything to this disease. And so I went back and I started with Freud. Freud was the first to write about narcissism in 1914. And then I continued all the way to Kohut, Heinz Kohut and Otto Kemberg and so on, but these people stopped writing about narcissism. The last time they had written anything about narcissism was 1974. Do you remember the first book you read? You remember the first book you read on the topic? The first book I read on the topic was Alexander Lowen's book about narcissism, which was a 1974 super popular book, not very serious mind you. And it was followed by Scott Peck, The Road Less Trouble. Scott Peck said that narcissists are demonic and they are the ramification of evil on earth. I didn't find it a very convincing, clinically convincing argument, so there was no serious literature because nonsense. In 1995, while I was in prison, I had written the first draft of my book by Lignan Zerflav, Narcissism Revisited. It was written by candlelight at night in the cell, in the cell with 10 other men. And then when I got out of prison, I met Lydia in Macedonia and she established the first website ever for narcissism. That was the first website on the web, ever. And for nine years, it was the only website on the web, for nine years. And so for nine years I was trying to educate people about what is narcissism, what is a narcissist, how the narcissist affects himself and his loved ones. So that's how it all started. I'm sorry it was a bit long, but I wanted to give you the whole sequence. And since then, of course, it became a global movement. There are more than 40 million people in narcissistic abuse support groups. Narcissistic abuse is a phrase that I coined in 1997 because I realized that the abuse meted out by narcissists is not like other forms of abuse. It's very, very different than we can discuss it a bit later. Lydia can provide, I think, the perspective of the 1997 to the publishing of the book, which is 1999. The first edition of Maligan South Lab, the first book ever on narcissistic abuse was in 1999. And it was because of her. I threw it to the garbage. I didn't want to publish it, to publish it. Yeah, it's actually, how did you know when I, when I met him, I already had some insights of unstable and already recognized family dynamics that that is my family that was my family. There were many questions that I couldn't find an answer. When I met Sam, there were some answers. Something was resonating of what he was saying, what he was, what we were talking, discussing, among each other, while introducing each other to each other, to each one of us. So there were many elements that were that I noticed and resonated with what I went through just a year or less than a year before. And it was after I was traumatized the previous year before I met him a year before I met him. And that I had like nine very close and family members that died. And I lost them. I lost them as people as beloved ones. And I stayed with people who are brutal, brutal, I can use today I can use that word, but I didn't know why. So, with communicating with Sam, and him explaining me what he was going through, while writing the book, how he spent his life, what happened to him, I could have made a difference. And it was challenging. Because finally, there were some answers to the unknown. And stabilize me emotionally, I felt more sure. It's better to know the ugly truth than to live in a bubble. You actually lost your beliefs. I caught myself distrusting anyone being alone. And it was time to make a decision about myself, where to go, what to do, where to focus, and so on. So this subject became very intriguing, interesting. And there were interest, many people got interest in the subject. And this group that Sam mentioned grew, and all the time they were asking questions. So the book has a section of frequently asked questions. These are from that group that people were talking, asking, they were also dealing and going through something with their beloved ones, with their families. And it was, it was a very pleasant feeling, pleasant feeling, that I found myself also helping in a way to answer and to make clear their standing in their families and beloved ones, because I know what I went through. And the subject of narcissism was giving answers to the feelings. Actually, they validated my emotions, as other people were saying. So we were not, and it was interesting to see that they were fighting for themselves. They were not just, okay, I will avoid the question, I will not tackle. They were brave women, mostly, that they seek answers. And I was, they are, they actually suggested why not to publish a book. So we did publish a book, but we found ourselves then in Prague. So the book was the first edition of the book was published here. So because they said I don't want to read from the search for the answers on the internet. I need the book to open it, just to check what is good for us, what is good for me. So it is, you know, there was good enough reason why to get involved in all this business, sort of, you know, publishing the book. So to complete the answer with your permission, one more sentence to complete the answer since then, I started to ask people who had been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder to approach me, and to be included in the database. So I administer a questionnaire of 682 questions that I have. Anyone who wants to be included must provide a letter from a diagnostician, a testing that he had been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, and which tests were used. So I insist usually on MPI two and MPI two tests. So you should read the book. Yes, and then they're included in the database today. There's 1,876 yesterday actually is another three today. So about 1,900. And each one is had answered as questionnaire of 682 questions and then each year, there's another questionnaire of 50 to something 50 something questions. I have the largest by far database in the world about narcissistic personality disorder with more than 1 billion data points about every conceivable dimension emotions, sexuality interpersonal relationships, empathy, intimacy, absolutely everything. My work is based on this database by now I am diluted I disappeared in the story and actually most of what I say about narcissists doesn't apply to me. Oh, I understood but the question that pops to my mind is this with the entire entire knowledge you have, they normally pinpointed the term trauma bonding. In your case, it's about healing bonding, which I understand, because you both had narcissists in your life. I also did. Interesting is that by knowing the dynamic and by recognizing it, you can literally have that support group bigger and bigger and bigger and help people have awareness on the topic. My question that popped in was this, do all families that face narcissistic abuse have this side of seclusion of being a bit withdrawn to the world or are there very ongoing families like the celebrities you see. So are they always compact or sometimes mingling with normal families? It depends on the narcissist. There is a typology of narcissists. So there is the overt narcissists. The overt narcissists is not self aware of anything wrong. Or if he is aware of his abrasive and anti social behaviors, he would tend to glorify or glamorize these behaviors, he would tend to say I'm the next, I'm the next stage in evolution and superior to other people. The overt narcissists is usually what you call a celebrity type. The overt narcissists is extroverted, life of the party, charming, outgoing, gregarious and usually embedded in families which provide the support for this kind of behaviors. There is also much more likely to engage in substance abuse and in reckless and defined behaviors. So he is much closer, the overt narcissists is much closer to the psychopathic pole of narcissism, to psychopathic narcissists or malignant narcissists. The other type of narcissists, the other major type because there are many types, but the other major type is the covert, shy, fragile, vulnerable narcissists, which was first described in 1989. And I contributed a lot to describing this type. And I came up with the inverted narcissists, which is a subtype of covert narcissists. Anyhow, the covert narcissists is withdrawn because he cannot obtain supply normally. He is very frustrated, resentful, envious, passive aggressive, seething, conspiratorial, scheming and very in this sense is very toxic. So there are many other types. Somatic and cerebral is a typology that I suggested. And I simply realized that some narcissists obtain supply by leveraging their intelligence and their intellect. They show they are intellectually pyrotechnic. They show you how clever they are, how amazing, how smart, how brilliant and so on, and they get your admiration and adulation. So this is cerebral narcissists. And cerebral narcissists would deny his body. He would not pay attention to his body. He would neglect himself. He would never exercise. He would rarely, if ever, have sex. It's like he is bodyless because his supply comes from his mind. So he puts all his resources in his mind. The somatic is the opposite. It's a narcissist. Yes, leverages his body, so he would body build it, or he would dress very well, or he would have sex endlessly and incessantly, or anything to do with the body, or he would be athletic, super athletic and so on. That's the way he would get supply. That's the way people or women would appreciate or admire it. This is another typology. But there are many other typologies. For example, very important typology, which is just being coming out, is high functioning versus low functioning. Why is that? I read in the book there are some of the team zombies, some of the team. The high functioning narcissists are narcissists who, despite their disorder, or because of their disorder, succeed in society. The disorder becomes a positive adaptation. They use their disorder to climb to the top, to become pillars of the community, to make money, become successful, to get women, you know. So these are high functioning. Low functioning narcissists are narcissists whose disorder disrupts their functioning in a variety of contexts and settings. They also make this distinction. So the field of narcissism is just evolving. Another distinction that I was, I suggested in 2000, is between the pro-social narcissists and the anti-social narcissists. They are narcissists who are altruistic, charitable, giving their part, the pillars of the community. They are part of society. They are morally upright. They never do anything wrong. So these narcissists, for example, religious leaders, they get their supply by being moral, by being pro-social. So I suggested the division between anti-social narcissists and pro-social narcissists. Narcissism is in all of us. We all have healthy narcissists. In exactly like a normal cell, a cell can become cancerous, malignant. Healthy narcissism can easily become malignant and so on. So consequently, it infects everyone. It's an equal opportunity contagion. So you have pro-social, anti-social, somatic, cerebral, this high functioning. Anyone can become that. And there are endless combinations. You mentioned trauma. People remember traumas much more than joyful moments. True. We have a mindset. We, by nature, connect more to the traumatic. That's why the trauma bonding is much more firm than because of the element in narcissism that we are not actually sure in ourselves. Because of our inner uncertainties, we have this narcissistic defense mechanism. And if we don't have, if we don't value ourselves, if our self-esteem is underestimated by the environment, then we are shifting. And the line is very thin to cross and become actually to upgrade ourselves to be more narcissistic, more grandiose. So in time, as we are getting experiences, especially remembering the trauma, and we are more traumatized, we develop more narcissistic dreams. You know, and in my country, at least, we say that, yes, older people are to be listened, heard about their experiences, but also they are selfish. In time, they learn from their traumatic experience. Yeah, they speak from time. That they are more selfish. So the first sign is that of the narcissist is selfishness. What you notice, you would say selfish person, not selfish in giving, but also sharing, emotional sharing. They won't validate, and they won't validate for you, your own emotions. They are more rigid in trying to understand what you are saying. You are honest emotion, you will emotionally open, you will share with them how you feel in order to share or asking for their validation, so you will adapt yourself more to the environment. You would like to know more about yourself, but they are abusing it. Selfish people abuse that. They consider it your weakness. And here is where I consider that if a person is not aware of narcissism, generally about other people, they are not aware. They are not aware of their own narcissism. And what I see and I really don't like is when people say, oh, for example, about me, but you are his wife, you are dormant, you are codependent, I was diagnosed, I don't know in what I said, look, I feel okay with myself. You know, because of my past, because of the environment, because of my own values, we are all different. You can't just label someone. It's very wrong, very wrong to go to take to diagnose someone without taking into consideration the upbringing, the cultural values, the environment, the conditions of life in the country today. It's very wrong. And I treat people. First thing what I say, where are you calling? Where were you born? Which year were you born? There were different trends. The values were different. So you can't, it's not, diagnosis of narcissism is not, ah, you are narcissistic. And depends on many elements. Also, we change all the time. As the, as the survival conditions change in the environment, the traumas appear, disappear, we bond with other people in different levels in different ways. So, this trust is enormous. These days, people just withdraw, they don't trust each other, even, you know, it's also because of the virus that is here, but woke them up. They are all afraid. We all are afraid to die. So that is our primary trauma. We actually trauma, traumatize ourselves first. That's why we need, we need the narcissistic defenses. We are ashamed of ourselves, our insecurities. We doubt our values. Are we able, can we do it? We suspect ourselves. Actually, there are no victims of narcissistic abuse. We are, we are victims of ourselves. It's a choice. It's a choice. So, in Romania, it's very prevalent. I am thinking, my guess is in your country also. He writes in the book that 50% to 75% are men. So, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the lawyer of men. But in Romania, they have a thinking that says strong men don't cry, etc, etc, etc. And it makes you feel weak when you feel vulnerable. But to such extent that they are a bit encouraged to be narcissistic in our country, to a big extent. And they also have the thinking, which I agree it's nice to cook and to be self-sufficient and to be a lady, but they have the idea that women should have no healthy boundaries in relationships. What I also think from your book is that I have so many people that are always more sides of the story. Some of them have this victimhood mentality or they shame themselves and they say, if I would have been stronger or if I would have been weaker, I think that this is wrong. Because from your book, I take it that from the thousands of interviews you made, there is no formula. So there is no formula for a partner who chooses to be in a narcissistic relationship. It has all sorts of dynamics, reasoning, underlying it. But what I took from what you said is that there are so many faces of the story that I am very curious in time, in your relationship for instance. If the underlying fear is this of abandonment, when you achieve something, Lydia, or when you have successes, do you feel encouraged? Because one thing that I see in this type of relationships is a cute jealousy. Does it manifest or can it be contained? The jealousy of the narcissist. You can also freely, I will beat you up. No, this is also a topic very frequent in men. Yes, it is. He is cerebral narcissist and he is grandiose. He knows all and better and best. And that is unbeatable. But is it true? It is. I agree. But because he doesn't have, he actually because he doesn't trust his instincts, because he doesn't trust his urges, he did not accept his needs. Because he doesn't accept them because he has to sustain the image that he created. And that is the driving force to support all the time to just push up to sustain that image that he has. We all have image of ourselves, but it's changeable. With the times, with the new information, we adapt. That is the difference with the narcissist. They are rigid. This is the word, the keyword in my understanding, they are rigid. They don't want the comfort zone. You heard about it like they don't want to exit. And every life coach will say exit the comfort zone in order for him to sustain that image. He is not open to listen to hear. He rejects someone else else's opinion, but it's not that he did not hear and listen in order to sustain his own image that he is grandiose. He is the brain. He will adopt. He will adopt. He will listen. He would, but he won't say it's that he heard it from me. But like overnight I came up with this. You know, it happened a few times, but it happens. We are, you know, but it is like, and it's not jealousy. It's not jealousy, but because of their inner dynamic, it is, it seems like jealousy to a person who doesn't understand the basics. How, how, what, what narcissist needs, how they function in a way, how, how much energy they need to sustain the image of themselves first. Then maybe they are good if they have time, if they are patient, they will hear when they will need to feed themselves with the to supply themselves in order to sustain their image. Then they will listen very carefully. They will be even curious and you will see, you will think that they're in love with you. They are so much, they value your opinion and so on. But it's not like that. They use it for themselves and they glorify only for themselves. That makes them selfish and that's why we say the narcissist are selfish and they are devils, but it's not because of jealousy. They are driven by envy, by their dark side. It's not really jealousy. It's not really jealousy. We misinterpret. You know I asked the question, you say so nicely in the beginning of the book, you dedicate the book to Lydia and you talk to such high esteem that you can see it's made out of the best intentions. So I'm imagining a man not necessarily being jealous on the wife's accomplishments but most cases this happened so. Like he discourages her, he puts her far away from the light. But in the book from the thing you said, like the first rounds when you mentioned her so highly, I feel like there is also the type of narcissist that says look I have an amazing wife or girlfriend or this. It means I have good taste and I know how to pick a good person. This is called co-idealization. The narcissist idealizes his partner in order to idealize himself. If the narcissist has a super intelligent partner, that means he's super intelligent because why would she be with him if he's not? If he has an exceedingly beautiful woman, he must be very attractive. Otherwise why would she be with him? So this is a process of co-idealization. Whenever the narcissist idealizes his partner, whenever for example he pushes her to accomplish things which I am doing with Lydia a lot. This is in order to idealize himself, to feel better about himself. So this is a critical distinction. Narcissists whatever they do it's about themselves. The image that they created. So if you have, how will I explain it? No, no, it's not jealousy. It's envy. So if imagine a cerebral narcissist knows it all, who are you to tell me? Also is the play power. He feels more strong, dominant. In animalistic terms it's called dominance. So they have their controlling territory including everything including me. I mean the wife and the dogs and the household. They have to have everything. We don't have dogs. Yeah but we had a fish. I have a cat. And she died. Of envy. So then if I for example know when he needs something. I don't mind giving because that is my background. That I have this like I want to feel useful. I want to contribute. I need that one's help. If someone approaches me maybe they need help. I know how I suffered when I was alone. So why not to help someone who felt who feels bad about himself or whatever. So I have this concept of need to be needed. My need is to be needed and useful. So people come and abuse it. Of course they will take advantage. But I don't mind because to be used and abused because that is how I grew up. So I have this filtering that I can't allow myself helping people. So I am myself with these human elements because we don't live separately in atomization how it is today for example. But I grew up with other people. I was eating at my neighbors and it was much more tastier. So differences that I experienced in life to confirm my values. Okay, not my mother, not my father, not other people, the experiences. But narcissists as opposed to narcissists, they are using people, other people to validate. They don't have the sense, they can't actually, they are incapable of experiencing their lives. But they need someone, he calls me external heart. Because I have to remember what we both experienced and I will tell him, this is your history. When we were for example in Budapest, we experienced this. So he lives through my senses, my senses. I sense, I experience and whenever he needs I give it to him. I upgrade him, I update him for every moment. So I'm his narcissist secondary actually, narcissistic supply according to his book. I don't mind being that because that is how it was. Of course, there are many elements that I cannot say, but I cannot express. Because he's not capable of understanding, even to grasp them as they exist. Other people do, they connect, they talk, he doesn't trust his senses, but his senses, you know, the gut feeling. He doubts himself, he has very good instincts, he has an enormous capacity. But he is afraid, terrified to listen to them, what this came from. So narcissists in general, they panic. And it's difficult for them even to decide upon something, to decide to make a decision to do this or this because they can't trust their senses, their instincts. That's why they need secondary sources of supply to know that they live. Via their sources of supply, they think that they live their lives, that they are alive. I verify, validate narcissistic existence. And I don't mind, because for example, Sam does a good job, but there are some that they are not worth. I try once, twice, three times, they don't have anything, I mean, they don't have any conscience. Like they are disconnected completely, they are not aware. You will hear them talking like there are some gurus, you know, the cult leaders are like that, for example. But implementing it, like they are divorced from implementation, you know, the image is there about themselves, but not implementing the things. Sam is not like that. So this is the difference. People should know about the small differences. But when you take all of them and you in a big picture, you feed them in a big picture, you will see that they are really inhuman. Because they suppress their human needs, their human values, they like negate themselves. And they need constant validation from other people to feel that they exist, that they are alive. What I took from the book, he did an amazing job describing the anxiety, which he also talks about of the narcissist. Another amazing thing you did, when we talk about how the narcissist was created. You said like normally the manual, the fifth edition says that they are normally made through abuse. My experience is not through abuse, it's through the hot and cold, the unavailability. And what I took from my childhood was very hard for me to actually set the boundaries. This is how I ended up in a narcissistic relationship. So I was curious, Lydia, so you kind of managed to reinforce your personal boundaries. This was the question, can you do this in the narcissistic relationship? But why ask the question? There are certain people, like Marissa Pir and others, that when they hear about narcissism, they say with the relationship. But you are talking to people who maybe have a transactional marriage, which is 20 years of age. They also have children together. And they try to manage their, not say their own un-clarity, but they try to manage it in their own system. So I'm not condoning it or condemning it. I just think every situation is distinct. This is why I wanted to understand, because it's interesting there is an amount of incredible data in your book that helps people navigate the relationship and better understand and forget about the things that are laid around there, what I mean through this. You have, in order for a person to be diagnosed as a narcissist, you have to have the five criteria from the nine. I hear so often the term narcissist that I think it's mentioned by anyone who had a bad relationship or when they date themselves, maybe they're histrionic or have a certain dependent personality and they cannot establish personal boundaries and they say, oh, he was a narcissist playing the victim card. Oh, she was. Maybe the person saying it is actually a narcissist. And I was curious if you could walk us through the nine criteria that you must meet five of them in order to be actually diagnosed. The nine criteria are about to be abolished, actually. The nine criteria first appeared in 1994 in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Edition 4. Actually, they appeared in Edition 3, but they were modified massively. And then in the text revision in 2000. So the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Edition 5 on page 767 has an alternative model of narcissistic personality disorder. And this alternative model is the new diagnostic model which will be in DSM 6. So there's not much point to talk about the nine criteria because they have been long ago, more than 20 years ago, discredited. And they are not used by serious scholars in the field anymore, well over 6 to 10 years, no one is using them anymore. They've been long discredited because they're wrong. For example, one of the criteria is that narcissists have no empathy. Today we know that they do. One of the criteria is that narcissists are envious. Today we know that there are big groups of narcissists who are not envious. And so on. So one could say that big parts of the criteria are probably wrong. Today with current research, including empathy as narcissists have empathy. They have a truncated form of empathy. They have a dysfunctional form of empathy. It's empathy that where the emotional component is inaccessible. So the narcissists cannot access the emotional part of the empathy. It's there by the way, but they cannot access it. But he has all the other forms of empathy, reflexive and cognitive. You basically realize what can happen as a result of your actions, but you cannot understand. How can I abuse you if I have no empathy? So the narcissist abuses his empathy to scan, to find out your vulnerabilities and your soft spots and your buttons. And he will then use this information to victimize you. But you need empathy to victimize someone else. If you have nothing in common, I cannot victimize a cockroach. I called it called empathy, which is currently being more and more used by Kevin Dutton others called empathy. So it's a form of empathy. So we no longer use the nine criteria. This is a history. And if you want to know if someone online knows what he's talking or she's talking about, whether she has a doctorate or not. If she mentions the nine criteria, she's 20 years behind the times. I understand. So the alternative model puts emphasis on dimensions, dimensions of personality. For example, the inability to maintain a stable identity, also known as identity disturbance. The need for others, the dependence on others in order to regulate the sense of self worth. The inability to maintain intimacy. The total lack of interest, the total lack of real and true interest in the so called intimate partner. I call it insignificant other, not significant other, but insignificant other. So the alternative model is much closer to reality. For example, the alternative model mentions that narcissists can go through periods of depression. Which was absolutely, I mean, the nine criteria, they tell you that narcissists are always happy. They're always perfectly, it's not true. Majority of narcissists go through massive depression, especially when they cannot obtain supply. I'm imagining if you have a hard time, sorry for interrupting you, but if you have a hard time, let's say, and you don't have the narcissistic supply. I'm imagining that the life crisis seems bigger for the narcissist because you're two types. There are two types of dysphoric problems. One is narcissistic injury, which is shortened. Usually the narcissist is able to overcome it or compensate for it by devaluing the source of the injury. They will say, the guy who told me that I'm an idiot is an idiot. Or the girl who rejected me is stupid and blind. She didn't realize my value, etc. So that's easy. What is much more difficult is narcissistic modification. Narcissistic modification is when the narcissist is shamed and humiliated in public in front of people that he values for some reason. People who can give him supply, for example, or his role model. So when this happens, there is a process of modification, which is a form of decompensation. The defenses of the narcissist stop, they're inactivated. And he doesn't have the false self of the grandiosity to protect him. So he becomes a borderline in effect. But this is always followed by rage? No, rage is following injury. Injury is followed by rage. Modification is followed by depression so severe that it is life-threatening. The suicidal ideation and so on. So technically, the narcissist becomes a borderline. He flips. Now this was first described by Grossstein, who was a scholar of personality. So Grossstein said that children who are traumatized are all of them trying to become narcissists. Narcissism is the best defense against trauma and abuse. The best. So everyone wants to go for the best. The child tries to become a narcissist. But some children fail. And the children who fail become borderlines or co-dependence. So when the narcissist's defenses are removed, he regresses. He goes back. And he goes back to being a borderline in effect. So he becomes suicidal. He suddenly has access to his emotions and they overwhelm him. They're disregulated. And so it's a very dangerous phase. But their alternative model is much more human. For example, the alternative model describes that there are narcissists who are very bad at obtaining supply. And so they are envious and they are passive aggressive and so on. And if you want a true picture of narcissism, you would go to the alternative. The list that was compiled for the DSM, the nine criteria. Exploitation, for example, is in the nine criteria. Some narcissists explode. Some don't. Some help. Because this is their grandiosity to say, I'm a moral mother to raise up. I'm a moral person. Look at me. I'm amazing. Yes, I'm a role model. Amazing. So these criteria are very primitive and they reflected the state of knowledge in 2000, which was zero in 1994, which was zero. So this is an answer to your question. One thing that I think of when I think of romantic relationship, it's parable in the Bible with the honey inside the dead lion. Why do I make it? Maybe it's blunt, but it sounds something that he tasted. When you taste for the first time the romantic partner, I have the impression that everything is grandiose like the narcissist is amazing. Does this always happen? It's a pattern like the face of idealization. Is it always huge like you're my soulmate or can it be a bit deflated? Because this was my sense. I met civil narcissists, which I had no engagement. I had only one relationship with one. But the thing that united them was the sense of soulmate grandiose. Bigger than life. But listen to what Sam said before. Narcissists have cold empathy. They know what you need. And in order to idealize how good they are, what a choice he made by choosing smart woman, beautiful woman, helpful woman, idealized her. Of course he will be the best lover and attentive. And this love bombing and romance, of course, but until when? That's the thing. Let him say his story, but only because many women are saying that how come in the beginning it was like this. Now what happened? That he devalues me. He insults me. He beats me. Sometimes physical. There is emotional abuse, which is worse. They're triangulating, but they don't understand. It's whenever narcissists feel that he doesn't get from that idealized woman as much as they feel like they deserve. They deserve. They think they deserve, but that is another topic. Co-idealization is an element, of course, but it's a tactical element. It's much, much deeper than this. When the narcissist sees a woman, I'm talking about men and women, although today 50% of diagnosed narcissists are women actually. The first time in human history. The incidents and prevalence of narcissism among women is increasing much more than a moment, much more. And the number of psychopathic women is beginning to equal the number of psychopathic men. And if we add borderline personality disorder, which is a form of secondary psychopathy, there are more psychopathic women than men today. So the picture is really bad. We're not going to the reason why. But I will use men and women just for discussion. Although the reverse is also true. The men identify the woman who has a self-love deficit. She was never able to love herself because she had not been loved unconditionally. She had not been seen or reflected properly. She was not able to develop boundaries, so she doesn't know where she ends and others begin. So she is, of course, unable to love yourself if you don't have a self. And when you don't have boundaries, you don't have a self. You have a cloud. You're like in the cloud. A label, weak self. So these people, these women have never experienced self-love. Never. The narcissist provides them with fake self-love. Self-love. The narcissist comes to such a woman and immediately idealizes her because of the process of co-idealization. And he does it through love-bombing and romantic. So he idealizes her and he creates this idealized image. And then what he does, he shows this idealized image to the woman. He makes the woman gaze at this idealized image. And of course, the woman falls in love with her own idealized image. The women don't fall in love with the narcissist. It's a crucial thing to understand. They fall in love with how the narcissist sees them. They fall in love with the idealization, with the fact that the narcissist is idealizing them. It's intoxicating to be idealized by someone. It's an unprecedented phenomenon because for the first time you're allowed to love yourself and you experience self-love. But it's you're loving not yourself. You're loving a fake version of yourself, an idealized version. And so after this, this is becoming addictive. You become addicted to it. I want to make the question through, sorry to interrupt you, but I heard a specialist pinpointing the idea of peptide addiction. What? I think peptide addiction, I think they called it. What you're saying, the dependence that you grow with the narcissist, please elaborate on this. I never heard of peptide addiction, but addiction. So what can I add here? This is known as process addiction if you're looking for the clinical. This is process addiction. For example, when, what he said that a woman was narcissistic and they boned weight and it's easiest for them to bond with insecure, insecure women, insecure. Insecure, what does it mean insecure? Insecuring what? In whom? What I mentioned in the beginning. They recognize our weaknesses. All people have weaknesses, not trusting themselves, doubting themselves. Except me, I don't agree. They're unstable. They're not unstable, but they can be stable for some things, certain for some things. But there is, there is like, you know, like ECG, you know, they are not constant. It's difficult for them to find balance to balance the positive and negative emotions they have. They don't have, they need, they stick validation from other people. If they grew up with narcissistic parents, at least one of them, the narcissistic parents' influence creates this trauma bonding, what you mentioned before. What does it mean that I was, for example, never validated by my mother that I was doing good. She never said it to me. She never said it. And it was like a cloud over my head that I was not good enough person. We all seek validation from other people to be a good people. We are accepted in the environment. We are socially accepted. But anyway, they stabilize us. They stabilize us. We need each other to regulate and control our urges, needs and so on. So when there is a weakness in a person, they are uncertain about many things. They have a question about themselves. Especially if they miss validation from a parent or significant other. Then there is much, much strong, there are many more actually narcissistic tendencies and traits were developed later in life. And if they were not regulated by their peers, teachers, other influences outside the family, then they turn out to be with MPD, with narcissistic personalities disorder. Emotionally, they end up even like psychopaths. And the thing is, if there is no constant validation, then there is this gap. What Sam says, a person, I, for example, I don't value myself. I have a low self esteem. I don't trust myself. But I am aware of my senses. So I know how to connect with people. It's easy. It's like talk, you know, I want to be needed. I want to be wanted and everything. And I give in the validation part that you are beautiful, that you are clever, that you can do things, that you know how to be independent emotionally and financially. What is the work of a parent? It's seen from the eyes of a narcissist, because narcissists are successful in, especially psychopaths, that they have goals. They have a goal to become billionaires. They will become billionaires. They will step on everything, but they will turn out to become what they really want, because of this sustaining their own image. Otherwise, they will not feel that they exist. So what the co-dependent, weak person misses is the so-called strain of a narcissist. You understand? So they fit. They are perfect match. Narcissists and borderliners are perfect match. So the narcissist, I say, it's pleasant to see someone needs me, wants me, you know, reflected in the eyes of a narcissist. And I'm thankful for that. Decide the abuse and neglect and everything, because when I catch myself loving myself as I was presented, and then I say, but it's not me, that makes a resonance, dissonance. And actually, they challenge me. Okay, me as Lydia, okay. They challenge me. Narcissists challenge me to know more about myself, my needs. Actually, I'm grateful that they are in my life, because I need, I have a need to prove my worth. And I have a need to validate my emotions, because I once lacked. In the book, regarding families, you explained to the parent who's not a narcissist how he or she should act with the child. And you also mentioned that some narcissists love children and some actually are mesmerized by the idea of having them, because it's like an extension of their super ego. So what would you advise a parent who has the relationship with a narcissist to behave with the child? The only thing to do is to not be a narcissist. The child needs to see two models. One model is a narcissistic parent and another alternative model of healthy, functional, non narcissistic parents. When the child grows and child is 18 years old, it's a struggle because for a long period of time, the child will choose the narcissistic parent. And the child will choose a narcissistic parent because there are two phases in personal development which are highly narcissistic. For example, adolescence. Adolescence is highly narcissistic. So during adolescence, the child is much more likely to imitate the narcissistic parent to love and to choose the narcissistic parent over the non narcissistic parent and it's very painful. But after a certain age, when the child becomes an adult, in the vast majority of cases, the child usually chooses the non narcissistic parent and the non narcissistic personality. So the parent must be there for the child and demonstrate to the child time and again, regardless of the pain, demonstrate again and again, there is an alternative. If you don't have to be like that, you can behave differently. Not by criticizing the other parent because this will push the child even more to the other parent. But just by being yourself, by presenting an alternative, there's nothing else that can be done. End of story. All the other advice is not sensitive or counterproductive. And you have to wait. If you were stupid enough to bring children to the world with a narcissist, this is your punishment. You have to wait and hope for the best. I'm saying stupid enough to bring a child to the world with a narcissist because the overwhelming vast majority of people realize that something is wrong with a partner on the third date or second date. These lies, these nonsense, he was a good actor, I didn't see it coming. This is self deception. People are so terrified of being lonely that they lie to themselves. They know something is wrong and they choose to remain in the relationship. And then they choose a year later to have a child with this monster. Well then, every actor has consequences and costs. But more, more addictive to see yourself after so many years that you did not get through the eyes. So finally I love myself. He did so good and you start to develop this. You have to have a child with this person. Men don't know that. But this is after I spoke to many women. I said, how come you choose to have a child with him? Even after you were physically abused. I knew that he was a psychopath. Why you choose? Because now even there are studies. If the McDonald's is the empathy thing in the group, right? If McDonald's is missing in the psychopaths. So why even not to be aware of something like that? So your child will be my 50%, right? You have become a psychopath. Don't you think about it? Many women don't. Because they are more addicted to capture, to have like something that will remind them constantly of that love that they had with the nurses, the psychopaths. The child, they will see the child and they will always be reminded how sick some women are. This is something that I'm telling you from a mother that what she told me. I love that child. Even if it is a child of a psychopath that he ended up in jail and I don't know if he will be released. But I see myself as a part. I remember the good times and the love bombing and everything. What is it good in it? He is four years old and violent, aggressive. What to do with such people? So women really, as I said, turn out to be more narcissistic than men. More narcissistic like, oh, we are abused and this is it. Everyone is a narcissist. Narcissists do the same. They should be into others. So if I was narcissistically injured, you know, I don't want to blame someone else. I would say, why on earth this is happening? And I will ask myself, why do I feel like that? Why women don't do that anymore? They used to do that, not anymore. They used to do that, not anymore. So it is, I think that the narcissism, as I said in the beginning, it's our choice. How we process, do we want to learn more about ourselves and self-regulate our emotions, validate our emotions? Or we will seek other people to do that for us. It's a mother's, mother's, only mother's job to teach a child in the formative years to make this difference and to choose. Yes, as I said, give you the option to do everything. Narcissistic mother or father doesn't matter. Just to be exposed to experience differences. The child to be given a chance by itself to see and notice differences. That is the only thing to prevent in effect narcissism. Because life experience is life experience. This is learned experience, I mean learned. And we make and we create new habits. We have our, when we start to believe in some rhythm, we become, we have rituals. You know, and these are stabilizing factors. Our beliefs, our routines stabilize us emotionally. Also, we feel much safer and more secure, more protected. And if any other, no other person, including some parents, no, any partner in life, no friends will do this for you. The times are changing. You have friends, you don't have friends. You can trust them, you can't trust them. They are changing also. The only certainty is your choice. The choices that you decide and you can rely on. So it's about trusting yourself. So it's more sustainable. And let it hurt, yes? I have a question regarding what she said shifting to friends. So they normally have followers, not so many friends. Given that narcissists are people of habit, like they have the ritual, but they seem very hectic from outside, is it common for each type of narcissist not to lose the circle of friends or the followers, but after he feels intimacy, he feels engulfed and then goes to another circle of followers and so on and so forth. So have you seen narcissists really developing relationships with other people than the insignificant other? Two years, like 20 years of following friendship or not? Do they permanently change the background of friends? Now, narcissists do not experience engulfment and anxiety. Engulfment and anxiety is borderlines. They have a conflict between abandonment and anxiety. The clinical term is separation and insecurity. So they have a conflict between separation and insecurity and engulfment and anxiety. They get close to you because they're afraid that you will abandon them. But the minute you show love and intimacy, they run away because they're afraid that you will engulf them. They get enmeshed. So this is borderlines, not narcissists. Narcissists are children who were not allowed to develop boundaries. They were not allowed to separate from the body. Physical abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse is a form of breaching boundaries, but also spoiling the child, using the child as a tool, forcing the child to become a parent, parentifying the child. These are all forms of breaching of boundaries, not allowing the child to become an individual. Separation, individuation. So narcissists, because they had never had boundaries, are not recognizing the boundaries of others. They have never experienced boundaries firsthand, so they don't understand boundaries with others. Consequently, they cannot be friends and they cannot love. Love and friendship, which are very, very similar emotions, now we are discovering, friendship is a form of love. Actually, it is love, only without the sexual context, and even that is not true all the time. But love and friendship are founded on boundaries. You cannot love another person if you don't have boundaries because to love another person is to recognize that the other person is not you. To recognize the other person is special, unique, separate from you. Otherwise, how can you love them? If you don't have boundaries, the only form of love is self-love because you can't love them. And even when you love another person, you're actually loving yourself because you can't recognize the separateness of the other person. So narcissists never are friends and are never capable of loving. Now, when narcissists do, they establish something which I called pathological narcissistic space. It's a physical or digital environment where the narcissist has constant admirers and fans and followers. And this environment can be stable because narcissists have what I call island of stability. Some narcissists, for example, have stable marriages for 20, 30, 40, 50 years. But they change 40 jobs. So they are not stable in the workplace, but they're stable in the marriage. Other narcissists are exactly the opposite. They work for one company for 40 years, but they had divorced six times. There's always a locus of stability because a narcissist needs to feel safe somewhere. The locus of stability can be the pathological narcissistic space. In other words, the narcissist can have a stable set of admirers for 20 years, for 30 years, for 40 years. Same people always admiring him, always adulating him, and he will stick with them for life. But at the same time, the rest of his life will be highly chaotic, total mess. So this is more or less the answer to your question. In social circles, like non-depersonal relationships, I used to be a model, and you mentioned in the book the situation of narcissism. It was strange that there were so many projections around me that what I took from the girls from the agency is that most of them couldn't stand any type of criticism. So they emulated the way you felt, but then when you had any type of criticism, they withdrew in the safe space somehow. So any form of criticism was seen as a threat. And the second thing, I'm curious if every narcissist lies, because sometimes they lied with silly stuff that had no significance, didn't help them. Sometimes the lies made them worse, but I think they gave them short-term gratification. Like they could outstand this image of omnipotence or do not seem flawed. So I have to lie in order to protect my perfect image. And another thing I saw was the comparison. So do all narcissists constantly compare themselves? Well, one by one. The first issue you raised is known as introspection. When the narcissist comes across you and you can be a source of supply, the narcissist takes a photograph of you, a snapshot, and then he internalizes the snapshot. And this process is in clinical terms, it's called introspection. He internalizes the snapshot, and then he continues to interact with the snapshot, never with you, never with you. You're not relevant anymore. He continues to interact with the snapshot. He photoshopped the snapshot, and this is idealization. He photoshopped, makes you look better and so on. And then he continues to interact with the snapshot. The snapshot has a few advantages. It doesn't talk back. It doesn't criticize. It doesn't disagree. And it never abandons the narcissist. Narcissists have abundant anxiety. So the snapshot is safe. You are not safe. You are not safe because you grow, you change, you evolve, you move, you talk to other people. You can cheat. You can betray. So you're not safe. The snapshot is safe. The snapshot is safe. So I said it. So the minute you criticize, you deviate from the snapshot. The minute you disagree, you step aside from the snapshot. There's a gap opening between you and the snapshot. The minute you're independent, the minute you make your own choices and decisions, the minute you have your own friends and family, you are deviating from the snapshot. You can no longer be controlled. You're not safe. So you become a secretary object. You become an enemy. And the narcissist needs to get rid of you because you are seriously threatening. And to do this, he devalues you and discards you. This is the process. So the second question you asked is about lying. What does that mean? Nascis is extremely rarely lying. Psychopaths do. It's a big confusion online. Psychopaths lie a lot because they're goal oriented. The lies are goal oriented. They want to accomplish something. Nascis is rarely lying. What Nascis is doing is another process which looks a lot like lying, but clinically is very different. And it's called confabulation. Nascis is confabulating for two reasons. It's a fantasy. It's a fantasy. It's a part of a fantasy defense. So actually they are fantasizing allowed. The fantasizing allowed. And it sounds like they're lying. And the second reason they lie is because they have memory gaps. They forget a lot. They have what we call dissociation. So they keep forgetting a lot. And then they are ashamed to admit. That they had forgotten because they know everything. They don't know something that had happened to them. Nascis would never say, I don't remember. I don't know because it's perfect. So instead the Nascis says, what could have happened? You know, what should have happened? What's the most reasonable, logical, plausible thing that had happened? It's a story that he invents a narrative. And then he says, oh, well, probably it did happen. I was in point A. Now I'm in point C. Probably there was point B in the middle. Otherwise, how did I get to C? And then point B becomes reality. He defends the confabulation as though it were real. And if you challenge him, he becomes aggressive. He refuses to admit that he invented the confabulation because he doesn't feel that he invented it. He feels it's real. So Nascis's don't lie. They don't lie. They don't lie. They don't lie. Really, of course, they lie. Everyone lies, but not as a strategy. That is psychopaths. The last thing is comparison. So Nascis is, it is another myth that Nascis needs to be the best, the most, the greater. That's not true. Nascis needs to be unique. So they can be a unique loser. A unique failure. A unique victim. A unique victim. And many victims online are actually Nascis. Covert Nascis. Their victimhood is their grandiosity. They're grandiose because there has never been a victim like them. They are the, the number one victim ever. You could be number one loser. You just need to be number one. You don't have to be the best, the strongest, the most powerful, the richest. No, you can be. That's men on earth. If you are number one and only Sui generis, this is grandiose. Okay. Now if you have a question, I'll be happy to ask. Those two masks you mentioned in the book, these are common for all types. The two masks. The two masks or what? I'm sorry. Of narcissism. Yes. Where is the termos, the eternal child and the second one. The Wundekin. Yes. But what, what is the question? You can recognize them in each narcissist. The Wundekin then. No, the Wundekin is more typical of cerebrum. The where I tell us Peter Pan. The eternal adolescent is, is all narcissists. Yes. All narcissists are immature. The child like the infantile. They're aggressive. So all narcissists are actually children prone to hedonism. Yeah. Children actually. In old age. And, but the Wundekin is unique to, unique to the cerebrum. The cerebrus was a Wundekin, from the, from the child, you know, from the boy. What I liked from the book, I think I have just two or three questions left, but one was that I started to recognize some patterns when I read the part with the sexual communicators, the three types. And I recognize some major differences between the three types, which maybe you could shed light on better than me. Well, there are those who go from, from sex commitment and those who go from commitment to sex. And today both styles are very widespread. So the book needs a revision because when I had written the book. One of the styles was considered socially acceptable. And the other style was considered dysfunctional. But today there is a pandemic of emotionless sex. Sex that is totally physiological release masturbatory sex with the body of your partner. Sex that does not recognize your partner is an autonomous independent entity. In short, narcissistic sex. Narcissistic sex is auto erotic. Narcissistic sex is about self gratification. Even when you gratify the partner, it's because you want to feel that you are great at sex. So you have ironically, narcissists who ask during the sex. How many times did you orgasm? Am I not the best you ever had, you know? So even when there is an interest in the partner, it's totally grandiose and self centered. And this, I'm saying it's a pandemic. Because lately in studies like Lisa Wade, Kerry Cohn and many others, we are discovering that the majority, and when I say majority, I mean super majority, 81% of women, for example, majority of people experience only casual sex, only one night stands. Majority of people nowadays do not experience sex in relationships with any meaningful other. Almost all of them have sex only with strangers. And in 20% of the time, they don't know the names of the strangers. The names, not any other detail. 20%, 81% of women have exclusively casual sex. 45% of people, men and women, had never had a relationship of any kind, for any duration. That's a picture in all age groups. It's a horrifying picture. I'm guessing pornography and everything, all identity plays a big part in this. Pornography with men and men are becoming much more aggressive. If you date a man today, you are fully expected to have sex on the first date. And if you don't, he becomes violent and aggressive. And you are a crazy bitch. If you don't have sex on the first date, there is an ethos that sex, even with total strangers, it's just fun and games and play. And of course, this is totally nonsensical because sex has huge physiological, hormonal and mental health implications. Even casual sex, even one night stand. So today there would be no distinction between sexual communicator and non-sexual communicator. Everything is down the drain. Everything is lost. We don't have a situation where there's a small minority, let's say 10% or 2% or 20% who are having sex. Everyone, that's it. It's gone. The connection between sex and intimacy. Sex and relationships. Sex and the art of life. The art of life is about compromising, about being together, about sharing. This connection is simply gone. We even have shocking testimonies, for example, Lisa Wade conducted studies where young women were saying, I don't have sex with my boyfriend. I love him. I'm intimate with him. Of course I don't have sex with him. I mean, it's totally, we have new phenomenon with 40% of women, girls under the age of 16, 14%, one in seven, had sex with multiple men simultaneously, usually an average of 10 men simultaneously. This is known as a train. Yeah, that's mind-boggling for me. I hope I'm not that old, but it's, yeah. I'm processing the information in real time. You mentioned that you actually know from the first date, you have a lot of books from the body keeps to score to other books that mention like the bed-vibes topic, a thing which I started to sense at the end of my narcissistic relationship. So I was blunt because I myself haven't done the inside work to see the triggers, the mechanisms, which I also had defense mechanisms. And at the end, it was so strong that I got to the ER two times just by facing the narcissistic in real life. I actually didn't felt rage or anything. I felt relief when he went away because I felt so bad. Do you, what do you think about the bed-vibes? I will let Lydia answer after me. No, no, no, no. No, I will let her. No, Lydia. I'll give her some space after. Yeah, please. After that, you can describe what you felt. On our first meeting, you felt bed-vibes. Yeah. It's useful to describe. Yeah, actually, because I want to know if it's a thing or not. Yeah. Yeah. It is definitely a thing. The information relevant to making a healthy decision is available within minutes. The narcissist breaches your boundaries, is in your face, makes decisions for you, ignores you as a separate entity, uses you as an extension within the first five minutes. Literally. You don't want to accept it. You don't want to realize it was, for example, maybe you're lonely. But there's an even deeper reason. In many cases, this creates parental resonance. You had been exposed to narcissists in your life in the past, upon which you were dependent emotionally, financially or otherwise. And so you are coming across a parental figure. And one of the things that we had documented very widely is that children will never say that the mother is bad, father is bad. The child will say, I'm bad. Something's wrong with me. So when you come across a parental figure in the form of a narcissist and you get the bed-vibes, you will not say something's wrong with him because he's a parent. You will say, something must be wrong with me. Why am I reacting like this? I'm in a bad mood. Something's wrong with me. We call this auto-plastic defense. So you will develop auto-plastic neurotic defenses. It will take a long time for you to get rid of these defenses and admit to the truth. But you have all the information in the first five minutes. He orders wine for you without asking you. He asks you intrusive questions after you come back from the toilet. He is jealous. He shouts at the waiter. He humiliates the taxi driver. You have all the clues. You have everything you need to know within five minutes. You are just denying it. You are self-denying. You suspect yourself first. You suspect yourself, but here in the book he mentions the two types, which are actually three types. You mentioned three tones, interesting, all of them. The MPD by proxy. The sensitized ones and DD sensitized ones. So here you can elaborate as you wish. People who have been repeatedly exposed to narcissistic abuse or to narcissists, it's a little like being exposed to snake venom or to any other toxin. You develop immunity and resistance in some ways. You become desensitized. You become sensitized. And so these people, ironically, at the same time would be able to spot a narcissist much more easily, but would have stronger defenses. They would lie to themselves more. It's the same. Now this creates dissonance. This creates immediately dissonance. We call it cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, you know this person is bad for you. And on the other hand, you deny it. And so the relationship starts off with a dissonance. And it leads dissonance can be resolved in many ways. And one of the ways to resolve the dissonance is to deny one of the two parts. So the preference is to deny that something is wrong with a partner. And to auto-plastic defense to blame yourself. Another way is to say, well, there is a third reason. It's not that something's wrong with him, but he had a bad day. Or his childhood was difficult. And I call it malignant optimism. Justifying him somehow. And a third way is a grandiose narcissistic defense. I can fix him with my love. And I will cure him. I will save him. So this creates very unhealthy dynamics, very dysfunctional dynamics. Ironically, and that's the problem with narcissistic. The more you're exposed to narcissists, the less healthy your reaction will be. Not the more, the less healthy. And the more narcissistic you become. The more narcissistic you become. And then you claim that you are a victim. It's not true. You're a victim of a narcissist. He became the abuser. Yeah, but because you allow it. So you can't blame yourself. You have to... Lady is touching upon a very important point. And that is what I call contagion. Narcissism is contagious. It causes you, it infects you, like a virus. It causes you to become more and more narcissistic. Now, it's also a defense mechanism. Because if you're abused, you have two options. You can say I'm helpless. I'm a victim, but who wants that? Another option is to say, I'm going to become the abuser. And now that I become the abuser, no one will dare to abuse me anymore. I'm doing the abusing for now. And most victims actually choose the second solution. And just a second. Just before in the morning, we were communicating. For a change, we're communicating. And he gave you the example that mostly women. There were less women who are narcissistic. With this pandemic, they become... This is exactly the reason that women became more narcissistic. They're not 35, but they are 50. I think that even more. But there is something that is... Something that I don't like. And that is because women sense the other. And they can be more manipulative, more goal-orientated. And since there are no money, there is no work, there are many... The conditions changed. They became even more psychopathic. This is what I noticed as a trend. And I'm devastated. What Sam gave you a taste of some significant change when a person is alone. And when the person doesn't have stability, where to compare themselves in order to regulate their emotions. Have a friend meet a friend, go out. Whatever. Some social. There was a lockdown. You can see, I felt, and we were discussing, all the fears pop up. All the fears of a human being abandoning a fear of death, of being abandoned, being alone. What on earth will I do with myself? People didn't know how old they were. I was... They were not even aware which color it was their favorite. They didn't know many small things about themselves. And this self-death personalization requires self-defense mechanisms. And they became narcissists. This is what happened. And why the number increased. I think there's a confluence of two additional social trends. One is women empowerment. Women were mistreated as slaves, effectively, for millennia. And now they're being liberated. And they don't know what to do with their freedom. Simple. It's such a new condition. I don't know if they're bored. They don't know how to do it in a new situation. It's a totally new situation to women. Never happened before. And they have no clue how to behave in this new situation. Because it's new. So this is the first thing. And the second thing is the number of women who are refugees from abusive relationships had exploded. Women are now identifying abuse. Can put a name to it. Women are now acting to get out of abusive relationships like never before. So we have like hundreds of millions of women who are refugees from abusive relationships. But when they go out of the abusive relationship, they say to themselves, never again. I will never be abused again. Now I'm free. I'm emancipated. I'm liberated. I'm powerful. I'm empowered. And I will never be abused again. But because they don't know how to behave in this new situation, and you found power and you found freedom, they choose male models. They become men. They say, oh, men abuse me. I will not become a man. So no one will abuse me anymore. And they don't choose good men, hardworking men, loving men. They choose bullies, narcissists and psychopaths as a role model. So women who are refugees in abusive relationships tend, this is fact by the way, documented by Judith Thurman and many others, they tend to become narcissistic and psychopathic in behavior at least, maybe not psychologically, but behaviorally, they tend to become narcissists and psychopaths. Succeedingly dangerous. Anyone who is on the dating side claims that today broken, damaged women and so on are highly narcissistic and psychopathic. Every man is claiming, just go online. And these women are also extremely likely to give up on men at some point. They say, okay, now I'm a defendant autonomous, I don't need men. I don't need men anymore. I'm going to use them like sex toy. That's it. If I need sex, I don't even need sex. They flip. And that's it. They're lost to the gender. There is a group of men who are reacting the same. These men consider themselves refugees from abusive relationships. And so these men are together in a monosphere. McDowell men going their own way in sales and so on. These are men that these are the mirror image of these women. They regard themselves as refugees from abuse. And so they now become narcissistic and psychopath. We have polarization of narcissists, women, narcissists and psychopaths and men, narcissists and psychopaths giving up on each other, becoming enemies and starting a war. It's absolute war between men and women. No, I wanted to cancel it, but it's okay. I tend to finish something, you know, just for to put it in a sentence, in one sentence. I don't want to complicate things. So there is another thing you can notice. If someone complicates the language, the explanation so much, then most probably 80% is a narcissist. One sentence simple, keep it simple. It's a clever, it's not grand deal, but clever, smart, boy, girl, whatever. That's true. Narcissists have specific speech patterns. It's amazing. When you say specific speech pattern, do you refer to I, I, I, the self-referencing or also only one? This is pro-non-density. Pro-non-density is one hallmark of narcissistic speech, but no, not only. Narcissistic speech is intended to impress, not to communicate. Narcissistic speech obfuscates reality. The main role is to hide reality, to gaslight you, in effect. Narcissistic speech contains a lot of inconsistencies. So the narcissist can contradict himself in one sentence. He can start with something. Okay, let's keep it simple. But after the conversation, after the conversation, when you ask yourself, what was all this all about? And you don't have an answer, it's for sure. You did not understand the narcissist. It was a narcissistic person. So, you know, people speak directly. They don't need audience. They don't need to prolong. Where's the point? Give me the point. It can be, it can be said in a sentence or two, in one paragraph. Narcissists will write the Bible out of it. I mean, a book. Ten books for one issue. And again, on the end, you will not understand something. Well, the book, your book some, the one I read, but you have many others I would like in the end. What is the editor? This is what I wanted to say. This is why you are a perfect match, because the book is so well written, so full of information, but it does not make you lose train of the events, not one second. It's so well comprised and met, because she edited it. So it works. No, no, it's a joke. But really what there was, it was also contribution to all this, ask questions. So I published the book, I opened the website for that, for it, 97, but the frequently asked questions were edited. And only after two years, it was published as a book. So there is, this is actually the beauty. It's not a narcissist only that wrote it. Who knows who edited it. But there is a component of other people's needs. The human element, human touch, that's why it is, there is also variety. Many subjects are included, reframed, you know, and that's why so many people, you know, resonate. Some elements resonate with different people. They're different topics. So what is needed for, again, I will say, expose yourself to differences. So via your experience, you will know, you will know to select. You were offered, and it's your choice, free choice, not by a narcissistic mother or narcissistic husband, your choice. And that gives value to any person, every person, and it's stabilizing. Because you went through it. Just narcissists don't remember what they went through. That's why, that is the handicap. And I don't mind serving as an external disc, memorizing the gaps while he dissociates or what he missed. But I don't mind, you know. It's not that he is using me and abusing me. He took me to those trips for me to sense. So why not to share? Why am I asking this? Why some women, that is what I appreciate for, and he is honest. And I feel safe and secure. Actually, I know how he functions. I noticed the signs. Yesterday I saw him, I said, why are you so stressed? You know, he didn't have an answer. He slept over and he said, this is what I read. You know, and it was really stressful. Some summary. But I told, because of my background, the guy was the one who did something bad. Okay. So, if you, anyone that lives with a narcissist have to have to use the senses, but not to manipulate in order to materialistically, as many women do, abuse, because most of the women who complain and who are victims are saying that their husband was jealous because, well, they were pretty easy to learn something and they see at home and acted as housewives and good mothers, you know? So, first, you know, it's important to hear, to hear the story and to be a little bit, you know, tactical with everyone, with the victim, with the narcissist, with the narcissist. So, we don't need, we'll have our ups and downs, right? But it will be fair, fair if everyone will have the, how you say in the brokerage, a good share, the best share, you know, communication. And you agree and use, you live together without hate. It's a good state, concluding statement. We reached the two hours. I would like to thank you for reaching the name of the book in the podcast and I thank you very much for your time. It was just one part of insight. If you read some book edited by Lydia, you will get an amazing insight into the world of the narcissist and you also have the frequently asked questions that are from the half of the book, I think, which are amazing. That should answer all of your questions. Are you planning a revised edition, you said? We were planning it for a few years, but no time, no time. This pandemic really triggered many people and as I said, all fears. I won't be surprised if there will be a new one. People are terrified and they need help and they need help. I'm focusing now on my new thinking in philosophy. I call it nothingness. I'm less into narcissism and so on, but we should come up with a final edition and allow all of us to move on. We've been doing this for 26 years. Thank you very much for your time. All the best.