 Lingingi kwa Restugtisha ulegi, F Folkshi utiaweza Khwilwani, Kwa Angiwa 27-20we wana yubilisani kwa Restugtisha teniwa na tiawezani kwa yaw zisanya. Nambu 2, Revenu areasa nama, yubilika, bia ni wakana mkupu nanti ni bi mkupu mil next one to itigua'un kibira miaweza wa ilama kawHHHH for the past few weeks in the Senate of the Republic of Kenya. We have the proposed change to allow counties to recieve 50 per cent of the 361.5 billion Kenyan shillings. What next for the Senate? Is the Senate actually doing its work Remember, there have been claims by governors to shut down counties All these and much more coming up right here on Y254 To help us understand this and much more I am joined by Dr. Akuro Kot He is from Tarwa Alliance One man who was part of the constitutional change He has been an expert in constitutional change ntandiru. He is also the founder of Kuru Ohkort Foundation. He is one man who shall be joining us live right here on this stand. Mwa shimu wa karibusana. I would like you to take your stand this evening. Now, I give you two minutes. Remember, this discussion today, it's all about the Kenya we want. The Kenya or the Kenya we need rather. What is the Kenya we need? Dr. Okot, 2 minuts. Okay. Just for the record, I'm still the party leader of Third Way Alliance Kenya. I know you said I'm from Third Way Alliance Kenya. It's not convenient because of the politics around it. But anyway, the Kenya I want, and I borrow this from the experience of COVID-19, the pandemic itself. I desire a Kenya where that we have got a preparedness, a disaster preparedness that we can also handle things, a pandemic like the COVID-19. I desire a Kenya where the healthcare infrastructure is able to accommodate each and every Kenyan is able to, every Kenyan is able to access. For example, today we're talking about the tests for COVID, costing about $100. That is 10,000 Kenyan shillings. That's almost the average wage for a working Kenyan. Not every Kenyan can handle that. So I would like a Kenya where the healthcare infrastructure can be accessed by every Kenyan. I want a Kenya where in the context of a pandemic like COVID-19 that the education sector does not appear to collapse. I want a Kenya where even with a pandemic like this, we are able to revive the economy and make sure that people are able to put food on the table. I want a Kenya where with a pandemic like this, we do not see people stealing money meant for COVID-19 patients. I want a Kenya where tribalism, negative ethnicity doesn't thrive. I want a Kenya where we can actually build a nation state where we all belong in Kenya in equal measure, not the Kenya of the haves and the Afnotes. Thank you very much, Dr. Okot. That is his stand addressing you. What is the Kenya we need? The stand starts right now. Remember the hashtag as always is the stand KE, make sure that you give us your take even as we continue with this evening conversation tonight right here on Y254. What do you think? What is the Kenya we need as we begin this conversation? Tag us at Y254 channel on Twitter at Ram Agukko. The hashtag is the stand KE. But Mishimio, thank you very much for finding time to join me this evening tonight. And as we started, the debate has been there about your position and maybe because it is not in my place. You are the best person to clarify this. Kenyans are asking this question. Are you still the party leader of Tadwe Alliance Kenya? Well, as far as I'm concerned, there is no process that has removed me as the party leader of Tadwe Alliance Kenya or even the founder and the person who conceptualize Tadwe Alliance Kenya. So yes, I can confirm categorically I'm still the party leader of Tadwe Alliance Kenya. You're still the party leader? This matter is before court, it's actively before court. There are people who have attempted desperately to try and host a coup in my party with attempt to remove me as a party leader. And it's not rocket science because I'm not the first such party leader for people to attempt to remove. It has happened in so many parties. Remember there was Mudawadi, it failed in Tangula. Now there is a cruel court. So maybe there will be other people. But I think what we need to discuss about in this country is not these cheap and simplistic attempts to undermine party leadership of political parties because there has been an attempt to undermine any political party or any political leader that takes a stand outside the mainstream narrative that we see in Kenya. And the truth for the matter is if today you are not singing the tune or dancing to the beats of BBI, you are targeted in so many respects, whether in parliament, whether in the Senate, whether outside. So I wouldn't read so much into this. I think Kenyans have bigger issues to discuss. But why you amongst so many in your party? There was a video that was circulating on there. There was a press releases that were given. Why you amongst so many? First of all, I don't want to discuss much about this because remember it's an active matter in court. I think these are issues that will converse in court. But your guess is as good as mine. Yes, why? And I can tell you from the nuances I'm reading, it is just cheap and simplistic politics. It's politics of people who have been compromised by other political groups and I think they think that they can try and remove a party leader like myself who has a very strong stand or supports strongly what my party believes in. So I don't think we should really delve so much into this issue because to be honest with you, it is not a very important issue for Kenyans to know today who either lead study alliance or not. I think Kenyans today want to understand, for example, how do we revive this economy in this during this pandemic? How do we address the question of nurses and doctors who are about to go on strike? And what does that mean in the context of a pandemic like this? What does that mean unemployment? What does it mean for education? Today, private schools have started the new term. There are many Kenyans who go to ordinary schools, public schools who are still unsure when the children go to school. People are struggling about putting food on the table. I think those are the issues that we should really be focusing on. Those are the important issues affecting the lives of mananji. You are right, Moshi Miowa, and they are bigger fish to fry here. Absolutely. Let's start with the Kenyan constitution. I still wish you the best in court. Let's start with the Kenyan constitution. MFRIKO studies were conducted and I was going through one research in regards to the endurance of constitutions. We have a study that was done by professors Zachary Elkins, Tom Gainsburg, and James Melton. Now they identified key factors that help predict how long a constitution will last. However, presented the facts were there. Now the facts boiled down to two things. One, what predicts how long a constitution can last is the design of the constitution. And number two, the environment under which the constitution operates. How does this apply here in Kenya? Does our design and environment provide our constitution its best footing? First of all, let me say that in any constitution, and I know Professor Gainsburg very well, I had the occasion to meet up with him. He is a very man I respect a lot. Now I'll tell you this. You can write yourself the best constitution in the world, but if you don't respect or even understand it, it may not even be worth the paper it's written on. So in constitution making processes, we always think about either the letter of the constitution and if the letter is not so clear, the spirit of the constitution. Now that calls for one fundamental aspect of constitution implementation. That is stewardship and leadership for a constitution. So you need people or a leadership in a country that actually believes in the constitution and safeguards the constitution. And which is why presidents, members of parliament, senators and any political leaders will always be sworn to protect, uphold and upheld the constitution. So our environment is one where that people do not even respect the constitution. In fact, when I hear people talk about constitutional change, they talk about constitutional change with themselves being entrenched in the constitution. They talk about personal interest. As long as the interests are served then. Exactly. That is not what a constitution is all about. A constitution is actually a social contract between the people and the state. And that's why it creates institutions. And then within those institutions, it appositions power within those institutions and it creates a relationship with those institutions so that you can see the executive, the parliament or the legislature and the judiciary. And of course now it also creates independent institutions like commissions such as IBC, National Cohesion, National Commission on Human Rights and how those interrelate and work together but for the people of the Republic of Kenya. And we say in a constitution, if you look from the preamble itself, we give ourselves this constitution for ourselves and to future generations. So the design of a constitution is also about addressing the concerns of the people. Such as for example we asked ourselves for the longest time before 2010 that how has power been used in this country? So how you design a constitution, how you eventually constitutionalize ideas or concrete those ideas is to address the fundamental question that people raise. What do we do with power? So article one for example of the Kenya constitution says that sovereign authority and power vests in the people of Kenya. So you address that fundamental question. So in your designing the constitution you are addressing fundamental problems. What do you do with the question of citizenship? Human rights, land and environment, leadership and integrity, finance, executive. So as a constitution builder you must bear in mind people's real life experiences. People's aspirations. Looking at people's aspirations, people's real life experiences. Let me narrow it down to the youths because you talked about the power belonging to the people. Do you think the Kenyan youth understands this fact? Well to be honest they hope to understand because I think the unfortunate thing about the Kenyan youth is that they have constantly been manipulated by the usual old political class. And I think until when the youth of Kenya actually realize that they are actually Kenya today and Kenya tomorrow. And I like giving a very tired example that when I was myself in, I may be in nursery, primary, secondary, up to university level I kept on hearing this tired narrative that you are tomorrow's leaders. And I've asked myself when honestly is this tomorrow going to come? Tomorrow will never come. So my advice to the youth of Kenya is because your real life struggles are felt now, not even today. Right now as we speak Ram with you there are people who are going to bed hungry. There are people who are so jobless they don't even know what to do tomorrow. There are people who are struggling with school loans. There are people who are just struggling with healthcare, education, they are out of school. So our problems are felt now. Even today as we go to bed people will be stressed, people are contemplating suicide because the problems are felt today. So this nonsense of saying that you are tomorrow's leaders, the youth of this country needs to rise up, wake up and take over the mantle of leadership. It is happening elsewhere in the world. It's only in Kenya where the youth are being assembled in Uhuru Park told to pick stones, machozi mandi and was sitting somewhere, sitting in their private members club, you know, sipping their finest of drinks either cognacs or wine and undining. But the youth jobless as they are, frustrated as they are, they are being told let's go to the street. That's not the kind of Kenya that I want. I want the Kenya where actually the youth of this country shape the narrative and the future of this country. And it means that the environment that you have giving the constitution the power that it needs is still not yet conducive. It is still not yet because if you look at, for example, even people like yourself from the media, look at the political narrative in this country today. It has been reduced to either two or three individuals. Look at the hula balu around constitution making in Kenya. First of all, it is not even following the constitutional provision of processes prescribed in the constitution. But it talks about, for example, a handshake between two individuals, Ahuru Kenyatta and Raela Odinga. And therefore the entire country is shaperon, kama mbuzi, ama ngombe, lasma mfote injiya. Even though, you know, actually this is not constitutional, because there are only two ways within which you can actually amend the constitution of Kenya. Either you go parliamentary initiative or popular initiative. And I've seen all the political class in Kenya almost wanting to kill each other because of two individuals. They are proposing or promoting a constitutional referendum on proposals that are not known. Because if I ask you, if you look at the hula balu, the newspaper headlines, even the headlines in the newspapers, the news items, talk about constitutional referendum on what. What is these changes that we are seeking actually to amend? And this is why for me I draw a contrast between people who are calling for constitutional amendments with what I have been promoting in my party, a third-way alliance Kenya, the Punguza Mizigo Kenya initiative. You can today read the proposals of third-way alliance Kenya right from the need to strengthen the revolution, address the question of overrepresentation. You know, let me quote what you said. You said this and I quote, for you to implement any constitution anywhere in the world you must respect it, protect it and uphold it. Absolutely. Are we doing that? First of all, the current political leadership in my view and I say this with tremendous respect, they don't think they've even read or understood this constitution. Because if you have read and understood this constitution, Ram, you must also know how do you begin the process of amending this constitution or seeking to amend this constitution? There is a threshold prescribed right from what you call 255, 256 and 257. So any constitution builder or part of a constitutional design is that as you write a constitution you must then inbuilt mechanisms or now either you can review that constitution and mend certain aspects of it or rewrite it afresh. Of which we do have that. But let me ask you, who apart from third-way alliance Kenya is following the provisions of amending the constitution? None. The discussions about constitutional change started. Let me quote the president. He said, 10 years after our progressive constitution the moment calls us to do better. Instead of a ceasefire document that enforces a zero sum game in which the winner takes it all the moment calls us to create a constitutional order that will last long. That's what the president said. I don't want to discuss things in the abstract. I don't know why it has taken the president from March 9 when he and his political brother Raela Odinga decided that they are going to initiate BBI and the handshake towards a constitutional change. First of all there is dishonesty there from the president. In no sense. The president is not being honest. How? We look at the founding propositions for BBI. There are about nine points and the question is this. Central, the overhacking objective of BBI is to establish what ails this country. That's the principle. Building bridges. I don't think they are building bridges. They are actually breaking any existing bridges because BBI has divided this country more than united it. So what is the solution according to your stand? So the solution is this. If you want to really build bridges in this country. If you want to really establish what ails this country. I would like to challenge the president to begin to table in parliament tomorrow since he now controls parliament and the senate because parliament today has become just a puppet. The parliament is independent. It's not this parliament. It is. You should just listen to the debates. President former prime minister, president. That's all. In fact I'm wondering was there any point of us actually electing or nominating 416 members of parliament. We should have just made Uhuru, Kenya to either senate and Raila parliament national assembly or vice versa. But that's unconstitutional. Yeah it's unconstitutional but that's the real politic in Kenya. The real politic in Kenya today that representatives of the people do not actually go to parliament to represent the people who send them there. They are going there to talk about party leadership and that's the problem. I have with this call for constitutional amendment. So you ask me the question what is the solution. The solution and this is my challenge to the president of the Republic of Kenya. Since you already have maybe one and a half years before you go. There is already established in a number of commissions what freely hails Kenya. The TGRC reports speaks about what hails this country. Truth justice and reconciliation commission establish issues to do with land clashes, tribal clashes and all that. There were gala massakas and there is the list is very long. Table that report tomorrow. Let's debate it. Let's talk about compensation and reparation for the people who suffer. Hold on. The Ngo commission of inquiry into the illegal and irregular allocation of land. Table that report. Let's implement it. The Waki commission on post election violence. The Kregla on electoral practices. The Akiwumi commission. The Oko commission. There are many of them and if you recall a letter that I wrote to the head of public service Joseph Kingo. I remember asking Joseph Kingo and I listed about nine reports from commissions of inquiry that actually established the problem in this country. So I will tell the president let's stop this gala post. Let's stop this pretends that the problem in Kenya today is about finding a constitution that accommodates everybody. That's not true. In fact why don't we begin by the executive respecting first and foremost orders from the judiciary. This is the only government that has disrespected court orders. Right from its first term to second term that is undermining the constitution of Kenya. How can you prove that allegation? There are so many times. For example, why as the president refused to swear the 41 judges because the 41 judges are recruited by the judicial service commission which is an organ within an independent judiciary. The president is represented in the JSE by the attorney general and one other person, actually two other persons that he himself appoints. If there was a problem with these 41 judges why didn't these representatives of the president including the attorney general who is a chief legal advisor raise those issues at the interviewing of these judges. That is disrespect for the judiciary. It is not rocket science as Ram. I hope you are in Kenya. That we have heard the executive say we shall revisit. We all know what shall revisit now means. That's how the judiciary is being undermined. We have all seen the changes that are happening in parliament on the whims of the executive. So how can you say to be honest and let's be fair we want to have a very candid and brutal conversation. How can you then say Ram actually that parliament is independent when it's actually being controlled by the executive. Well that is your stand. It's not my stand. You've reminded me. But let's be honest. Do we need to go back to the Boma Straft? Why do we need to go back to the Boma Straft? We already have a constitution. We have a 2010 constitution that specifies how this country must be governed and that's why for me that if there are aspects of this constitution that are weak less than a main constitution to strengthen them. For example, let me give you an example of devolution. In seeking to strengthen devolution I have proposed through Third Way Alliance Kenya that we need to do a number of things. Number one, let's increase allocation to the counties to at least 50% because today we are saying that we are we are allocating 15% of our revenue to counties and that 85% remains to the national. Let's have a candid talk as Kenyans. What is the national? If you deconstruct the national deconstruct the national it is the people of Kenya in all the 47 counties. It is the people of Kenya in the 1450 words which is why for me as a party leader I have proposed and I have pushed for the idea that less a main constitution to increase more money to be allocated to the 47 counties of Kenya and less now devolve funds beyond county edicotas. Okay, okay. Let me finish. When we devolve funds beyond county edicotas I want us to look at the 1450 words of Kenya today and we begin to tick the box that in each and every word come from. Do you have clean water, electricity health, good schools employment? Once we tick those boxes then we can talk about real and meaningful inclusivity in Kenya. We shall come to that issue about revenue allocation but let's pull up a tweet by Professor Sam Ongeri coming up says there the 2010 kenyans constitution has failed to solve the worst problems. Chapter 6 of our constitution that would have guaranteed integrity of leadership is not bearing fruits. Elected leaders are looting public resources and no action is being taken. Actually I disagree with a good proof. First of all there is nothing wrong with Chapter 6 actually Chapter 6 I will be honest with you is one of the geniuses of kenyans constitution I have gone to a number of countries to speak about the making of kenyans constitution and I keep on being asked this question what is it that drove kenyans to propose an entire chapter called leadership and integrity. In other words kenyans wants a certain type and character of leader because one of the things that kenyans told us at 2010 and I was on that I was seated in that drafting table at the committee of experts at the committee of experts and kenyans were saying one of the things that has really failed us as a country is the leadership is stewardship. There is no country anywhere in the world that will prosper without a certain stewardship that's what we need as a country that's what we need as a country and that's why kenyans said in our new constitution let's prescribe the character and type of leader we want but listen what does the leadership do as soon as we actually promulgated this constitution they actually began to kill chapter 6 because in that chapter 6 we are saying right from article 73 all the way to article 79 we say parliament shall pass legislation to bring this chapter into effect but how did they kill it? how did they kill it? They passed a legislation that actually undermined chapter 6 in almost its entirety I'll give another example at kolwano 4 kenyans say we now need to exercise the right to recall that when my member of parliament goes to parliament and just sleeps there and does nothing we want to recall that member of parliament and fire that member of parliament that is another constitution what did parliamentarians do they passed a law that made it almost impossible for the electorate to actually recall them when they actually sleep on the job I can go on and on amending the constitution one of the ingredients of seeking to amend the constitution or the benefit is to ask the question what is the benefit that accrues to the public is amending the constitution making the lives of kenyans better and I want to challenge viewers who are watching this program today I don't know why you will find the BBI proposals good luck if you ever find them but look at punguza mizigo kenya which are contained in thirdwayalance.com you will see the proposals we have put there right from strengthening evolution sending more money to the counties accountability independence of institution like the county assembly you will see a direct benefit to the people of kenya it is not an advance making the constitution to accommodate a few tribal leaders or to expand the executive as I have heard this I am just speculating because this seems to be the predominant proposal in some other quarters that talk about constitutional amendment constitutional amendment must have a direct benefit to the populace and that is what is taking us to what the social contract is all about the social contract is about the people of kenya benefiting in equal measure from the highest order in the land which in your view in your stand would not benefit equally as we speak I don't think so because the constitution doesn't seem to serve the people of kenya equitably but let's talk about equity equity is about just addressing the imbalances in society should we go for equity rather than equality for example I tell you why I mention that we should go for equity because equality is an ideal difficult to achieve why are we not implementing article 1 or 4 of the kenya constitution that talks about the equalization fund it creates the equalization fund it has created the equalization fund so that you can now say kendera wajir or tukana or tanariva for almost over 50 years not benefited from the national government in terms of for example look at road infrastructure electricity clean water equitable distribution of resources article 1 or 4 created the equalization fund so that we can bring resources at power so that Nairobi what you enjoy in Nairobi I should be able to enjoy it in my native county tukana and that's how we can truly build or create a nation state and that is exactly what is making us have a stalemate in the senate we are having a stalemate in the senate because of the character of our political leadership a political life today that's advancing from one region that you must have one vote one shielding one man that is disintegrating the country we call Kenya it is actually heightening ethnic tensions because I can also say today coming from tukana but we never benefited in the past because of political dominance by a certain group or a region in this country the rest of us were marginalized today there is no region or county in Kenya that can clearly say that we are being marginalized because the redistribution distribution of resources or revenue in this country national revenue in this country is equitable it's based on your needs and that's why today for the first time for the last almost 7 years now every county in Kenya Ram receives billions of Kenya shieldings now how you use those billions to benefit your people is the other story but you cannot blame the constitution there is equity so for me in my native county tukana I do not see a reason why we can no longer have at least water in each and every village with almost 13 or 12 billion that we are getting every year that is the stand of Honorable Dr. Ekuru Okor let's take a short break remember give us your take in regards to this discussion the hashtag is the stand KE we are live on our website www.y254.co.ke the hashtag is the stand KE at Y254 channel at Ram Maguko and remember we are also live on facebook let's take that break we'll be back in a bit with Meshimiwa himself