 Kyle is the founder and managing partner of Westway, a law firm for social entrepreneurs. He teaches social entrepreneurship at Harvard Law School and Cornell Tech. He's the author of Profit and Purpose and recently released the Entrepreneurs' COVID-19 Playbook, a free 40-page guide to stimulus money, tax breaks, and legal tips to survive and thrive during the pandemic. Every Saturday morning, he sends out the weekend briefing an email on how innovation is impacting society. And I just want to reiterate for all of you joining the call that I will be sending out a recap email to our entire SoCAP Entrepreneur Lister with all these resources that are mentioned during the call and anything else that Kyle would like to share with you, including the playbook, so you will have access to all that information. Great. Well, Sarah, thanks so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of SoCAP and specifically the work you're doing with the social entrepreneurs is so important and I'm glad to be here. And I think my goal today is if I can help you guys walk away with just a little bit more clarity on how to think through this moment that we're in right now, I think that'll be a win. So I'm going to start with a little bit of a presentation and then I'm going to move on to kind of more open Q&A. And hopefully that will spark some really good conversation and I'm looking forward to it. I think we're going to have maybe 10, 15 minutes on the upfront of my presentation and Sarah and I's questions and answers and then we'll kind of open up to the larger questions and answers. So I'm going to start by sharing my screen here. All right. Okay. Can you guys see that? Yeah? We're good? Okay. Yeah. Perfect. All right. So I am just going to walk through some highlights today and what I've chosen to focus on is PPP because that seems to be what's working with social entrepreneurs myself and from the research I've done is the most interesting, popular and most used program of the stimulus. There's some other stuff out there. We can certainly get to in the Q&A if you want to. But this first part of the presentation is going to focus on PPP. So what is this program? The payroll protection program. Here's a quick breakdown of it. PPP is a loan to small businesses. The problem that's trying to be solved through PPP is how can we ensure that people stay on the payroll during this hopefully momentary downtime for our economy? So that's the idea of it is to put money into businesses so businesses don't have to lay people off even when they're shut down. And so how does it work? Well, first I want to say this is how much money has been put into the program thus far in two tranches. Second tranche was signed into law on Friday of last week, April 24th. And the first amount of funding went really, really quickly. We're going to get to some stats on how the money was spent and how entrepreneurs were able to access that money in a bit. But the total amount of money thus far that has been appropriated to the PPP program is $660 billion. There is possibility and I would, if I were going to make a bet, probability that there would be at least another tranche of funding coming for PPP. But we'll get there, get to that in a minute. So how do I know if I'm running a, if I'm an entrepreneur or running a small business, how do I know if I'm eligible for the PPP program? Here are three kind of quick bullet points. If you fit under one of these, then you're probably eligible. The eligibility is pretty broad. So if you're not a huge business, which you're probably not on this call if you're a huge business, then you're probably eligible. So it's a small business or nonprofit with 500 or less employees. Interestingly, after the program was initially launched, there was clarification that you can in fact apply if you're an independent contractor or sole proprietor. And in either case, you need to have been in operation on February 15, 2020. So if you meet those criteria, then you're probably eligible. So again, this is a loan. This is a loan from the government. It is specifically from SBA. And so what are the terms of that loan? The terms are pretty simple. Actually, really simple for a government program. It's surprisingly straightforward. The amount that you can borrow is based on the amount of payroll that you have. And for a simple back of the envelope number, if you spend $100 every month on payroll, you can apply for a loan of up to $250. So 2.5 times what your monthly payroll costs are. Those payroll costs include the actual payroll money, taxes, benefits, anything else that's put into a compensation package for your employees are included in that principal calculation. So again, it's 2.5 times your monthly payroll. One note is that if you have employees that are making over 100 grand a year, it's only going to be calculating their annualized 100 grand. So if they make 200 grand, you're only going to get payroll. You're only able to add 100 grand of that into the calculation. It's a loan with an interest of 1% in a term of two years. So pretty clean, pretty straightforward. Unlike some other programs that the SBA has, there's no personal guaranteed required. So that means that you don't have to personally sign that you will personally be on the hook if your company is not able to pay this off. I think which is huge. A lot of small businesses are very rightfully so, very leery of taking on debt that they have to personally guarantee. And Kyle, there is a question just in terms of the current status of this PPP program. If funds are still available, people have been chatting that like round one versus round two. Can you give any sort of insight into that? Yeah, it's a great question. So you know what? I want to answer that question. Let's do that in about a minute. Is that okay? I think that we'll have some slides, kind of a couple slides down the line that will be a little bit more speaking to that particular point. I just want to get people on the right page of what this program is. Okay, so this loan is forgivable under certain circumstances. And the circumstances are that you use it for authorized purposes, which are payroll costs, mortgage interest, rent and utility payments, and that you deploy that capital within eight weeks. And you keep people employed during that eight weeks. If you reduce your employee headcount as compared against your average headcount, then you will reduce the amount that you will be forgiven by that amount. So if you normally have 10 people on your payroll and you have to lay off one person within those eight weeks, your forgivable amount will be reduced by 10%, if that makes sense. And then lastly, how do you apply? The way that this program is being put together is that the application is through banks that are SBA lenders, also through some fintech companies such as Cabbage and PayPal, among others. And typically the application process has been online in a pretty straightforward form when the bank's sites are up and operational, which has been a pretty big issue. But the main thing is that the banks can process these loan applications, but it doesn't matter unless the actual capital is there from the SBA's end. So this leads to the question that we had earlier. How is it going? How is the program progressing at this point in time? And I would say that not so hot is the answer. There is a lot of frustration on the side of entrepreneurs. I run a law firm that works with early and growth stage social entrepreneurs. And so I'm hearing that firsthand from my clients. And then I've also done some work, just some survey work around the field. And I put a survey out and had 127 entrepreneurs fill out the survey to let me know kind of what their experience with the PPP is. And if I could summarize the experience in one word, it would be frustration. There's a lot of frustration out there about opacity of the process, and both in how you actually, who you should be applying with and how their application process works. And then secondly, how each applicant is prioritized or not. And there's a lot of underlying frustration there. And we can certainly talk about that if we want to. But I just want to give you some data that I learned from doing this survey about how it's going. So the banks estimate that it will probably take $1 trillion to fund all of the applications that are in the pipeline right now. If you remember from our slide earlier, there's been about $660 billion appropriated thus far. So if the banks are being honest with the amount of applications that are in their pipeline, there's still a pretty significant shortfall of you know, we barely are over half of the applications will be funded. So there's a huge question of whether this, how much gap this next tranche, which was just put into play on Friday and started kind of flowing on Monday. There's a big question about how much need that will fill and how quickly it will be tapped. And we don't know that data just yet. What we do know kind of from the research that I did is that from our small pool of 127 entrepreneurs, 18.2% were funded. So that's over 80% were not funded. That number probably is a little bit higher now as the survey was done last week. And I've got some emails trickling in saying that people have been funded. So let's assume it grew to 20%. Still about 80% of applicants haven't been funded. If our data is representative, I don't know if it is of the whole, that's a pretty small drop in the bucket. And just to give you kind of a insight of how much people are generally applying for, this is kind of the breakdown of the within our subset of people that we surveyed the dollar amounts of the PPP loans being requested. You can see a almost half of the loans are under 50K. And very few of them are over a million dollars. So at least within our subset, these are real small businesses. There's been a lot of critique about businesses that qualify under the SBA rules of small businesses, but are publicly traded or are pretty big, you know, in terms of revenue and headcount. And they are the ones that are getting those loans that are on the five to 10 million or a million dollars and above. And there's some critique about whether or not they they should be SBA has clarified some rules as of Friday to say that if you're taking out a loan, be aware that we may check into whether you actually need that loan. And they specifically use an example of the publicly traded small business that is taking PPP money. So hopefully we have seen some of that money returned. And hopefully we'll see some more of that so that it can flow to some more real small businesses. I'm showing my bias here, but that's my perspective. So just in case you guys are super curious and want to learn more, I've put together a spreadsheet that's sortable by size of company, by non-profit for profit, by bank that they applied for and by whether or not they're approved. So you can sort by a bunch of different functions. You can maybe even look at your bank and see how many people have been approved from the bank that you bank with. If you're a data geek, you may want to get in there and sort and play around. And this is where I've put that data up publicly so you guys can play with it. And then we can probably throw this in the email afterwards if people are interested in digging further. So I'm going to stop there and maybe start moving into some of the questions, Sarah, that you kind of have queued up here. Perfect. So one of the first questions that I'm seeing comes from Sean and said, if you have not demonstrated revenue or reported a loss in 2020, are you still eligible for either program as an escort? Assuming you are in existence before 2020. But maybe that's what they're saying. They haven't been in existence? Or if you just haven't demonstrated revenue or reported a loss in 2020 is the question. So the look-back period for PPP is from February 2019 to February 2020 or just your financials for the year 2019. So if this person is asking, we had a good year in 2019 and 2020, we haven't done much of anything, that's going to be fine. If they didn't exist before 2020, they are probably not going to be able to access PPP money. Okay. Yeah, and they're in existence prior to 2020. So I think that answers his question as well. And then there's a couple of questions around what round one versus round two looks like. Some people didn't get money in round one, but they're in line for the next round. And the SBA is limiting the number of applications by large banks. Just what are you hearing or what are even for the participants in this group? Like, what are other people hearing? And is there a line? What does that look like? Yeah, it's still unclear how prioritization is happening at each bank. And there have been lawsuits around banks seemingly prioritizing larger loans as opposed to smaller loans. It's unclear whether, well, I will say one judge has ruled that that is an okay thing to do. It's unclear whether that will in the end be the truth, whether or not they were able to do that or not. So taking that aside, each bank seems to have their own process for who they're processing. You'd like to think it could just be a first come, first serve. It doesn't seem that that's happening, but there's no clear data one way or the other on how that's happening as far as first tranche versus second tranche. If you've applied for PPP under the first tranche, you do not need to reapply. You are in the queue at your lender and it will be processed in the same way that they process everything else. They just will have another plug of money to pull in from. I feel like there's one more sub question there, but did I hit all the questions there, Sarah? No, I missed something. I think that answers everyone's questions. I want to just make sure for Neil Newman, if that answers his questions, because he had another sort of in terms of there's been adjustments made to the PPP program so that actual small businesses would access the loans. How effective do you think those changes will be in getting money to the businesses that actually need it? I think that as I alluded to that there is more clarity on that specifically seems to be targeted at larger small businesses. I think that that will, what the most recent Treasury guidance on Friday said is that if you take this money, we want to remind you that you're certifying that you have economic need for these loans. What the Treasury has said is, for example, if you're a publicly traded small business, we may come back and ask you to certify, and we may ask to come and look at your books to see if you actually have financial need for these loans. They also said, if you want to return the money before May 7th, we will call it all good, no harm, no foul. But if you keep the loan after May 7th, then we will look into your books to see if there's a real economic need here. The other thing too that is kind of a sub point that maybe is worth mentioning is that a certain chunk of PPP this time around was, I believe that was 60 billion, was earmarked for smaller in community banks. The hope here is, though I don't know if this is actually true or not, the hope here is that folks that have harder time don't have relationships with big banks or have harder times creating banking relationships that they're, these smaller banks may be able to serve them better. I don't know if that's true or not. The data I've seen, I just saw one quick report that said the likelihood of people of color accessing PPP funds are significantly lower due to a couple different things, and they kind of extrapolated those business owners that are people of color that have significant inconsistent banking relationships relative to the rest of the population, and they extrapolated out that there's a pretty significant disadvantage to being a person of color to access these programs. Great, and then one more clarifying question is sort of, is there, is there a line to be funded or do they put everyone in the same pool? If I apply tomorrow, do I get the same fair treatment as someone that applied three weeks ago, for example? I don't know the answer to that. Each bank seems to have their own way of prioritizing, and so my answer would, my guess would be that you'll be in the same criteria that that bank uses. So a bank of America, a Chase has their system, you'll be put in the system in the same way that anybody else would. There's no reason not to apply at this point in time if you haven't applied yet. If you have applied, it's kind of unfortunately a little bit of a cross your fingers and hope. I do know that a number of folks are making applications at a major bank, for instance, and then also a fintech company to see which process works through quicker. You obviously can't accept, but you know, if you get funded on both, you can't accept both. You have to take it from one or the other. Otherwise, that would be fraud, which we would not want you guys to commit. And for independent contractors, do you have a good feel as to what they report in terms of payroll, since most don't have payroll per se? Yeah, so they'll be looking back at your past 1099 schedule C as the document to understand how much money you've made. And I've got 12. We'll let these questions finish up, because I've got a couple more that I've been hearing a lot of, and this touches on one of those questions. I can get into a little bit more detail. And the last little mini question before we launch into the next section of the Q&A is, can you apply to more than one bank? Yes, you can apply to more than one bank. You can't accept more than one bank. So if I own a business, Kyle, but I don't take a salary, can I still apply? If so, how do I calculate payroll? Yeah, this is a great question. I'm going to pull back up my presentation for this, because this is one that has been, lots of people have been asking, boom, there's the question right there. So if you run an LLC or an S corp and generally pay yourself not through payroll, but through distributions, you can count that towards your total payroll costs for purposes of calculating loan size. You'll need supporting documentation to prove this. This is kind of guidance from Treasury is saying this, the question I think that individual banks are having is what documentation is enough documentation to show that this is actually true. And one email I got actually this morning a couple hours ago was noting that an S corp that does pays themselves through distributions and takes a low salary, made the application, they were funded. And the one thing that was a wrinkle in their kind of process was what documents should we rely on to prove that you actually were paying yourself this much. They used their K1 and it helped that they were doing these distributions on a regular basis, but it wasn't just ad hoc seemed to help. But the bank required them to sign a lot of forms saying that we are not taking responsibility. If in the end, the SBA and Treasury chooses to say that this is not proper documentation, we are not taking any liability for relying upon this documentation. So I think that banks are a little bit leery, but we have been hearing folks in this position get funded. So that's good news. I think each bank will take their own process for how they answer that. And we do have a couple more questions coming in that are a little more there about sort of eligibility. If you were an operation in 2019, but you had no revenue, but you had sweat equity, like entrepreneur sweat, are you eligible? Meaning sweat equity as in four partners plus legal costs plus one consultant to total six employees. Yeah, it calculates on how much the business is paying out to people. So the answer is no. If you don't have any proof that you have been paying people, they're not in the business of calculating how much sweat equity is worth in your company. So the answer is unfortunately no on that one. My understanding. Is there an easy way for people to check the eligibility of the stimulus check and like to see if they're eligible? I'm stimulus check. I just want to make sure that we're not talking about something else now because they're, yeah, are those, is that something different than PPP? I just want to make sure I know what we're talking about. I'll wait. It's an anonymous attendee. I think it's, there's two different things. Yeah, go ahead. I'll just say just one quick note on that. If I think I understand the question properly, there is the personal stimulus check. People are coming to stimulus check of $1,200 that is being cut to individuals, not to companies. And that is all based on how much income you earned. And there's a sliding scale of how much of that you'll receive. And I don't know those numbers off the top of my head, but I do think that once you get to 150 of, if you've earned 150 or more, I believe you get zero and there's a sliding scale down. Yeah, that's my understanding of how it works. And if you've previously applied for PPP through, for example, a fintech company or have signed a loan document, does that mean you're funded? Or is it just another step in underwriting? Well, it would depend what that document is. But if the document is that you have been approved here, the terms, here is the term of the loan, here's the promissory note that you need to sign, then you have been approved by your lender. And oftentimes they won't get to that step unless they actually have the funding to fund. I typically speaking once you have that step. And if the company, if the funding is in place, they're the Treasury rule state that it shouldn't be more than a 10 day gap between approval and actual, the funds in your account. And at what time should I start closing more more? Oh, sorry. That's a different question. So, what happens if I have to let go of employees after the eighth week? That's kind of our next question. I think this will help a lot of people with questions that are coming in right now. What if I have to let employees go after the eighth week? It's a good question. The terms, as I understand them on PPP, dictate how you spend the PPP capital and how you spend it determines how much of it is forgiven, right? So, if I take a loan out for $100 and I spend all of that $100 in an appropriate way, then $100 of that $100 will be forgiven. If I don't spend it in an appropriate way, there's a smaller chunk of that that will be forgiven, meaning I will have to pay off the rest of it. So, one of the terms is that you have to keep the same headcount as your average headcount from last year or more in order to have that loan amount forgiven. So, the time frame to have that is for eight weeks. The idea here is hopefully two and a half months of payroll will allow you to pay people for two months and have a little bit of extra money to pay for other authorized costs. But if you take the money and then you cut people right away, then you have to pay back essentially the whole thing. After the eighth week, the clock stops and what the look-back period for forgivabilities purposes is those eight weeks. So, they care about what you did with that money, how you spent it within those eight weeks, and if you spend it properly and then on the ninth week, you're like, we tried, we did the best we could to keep people employed, but now we're not able to anymore. You're not going to be penalized for the activities that you take laying off people, etc. on the ninth week. I want to just check in with all of our participants to see if there's any final questions, comments. There are two more frequently asked questions that I have, Sarah, if you want me to queue those up. So, another popular question is, is it possible to qualify for loans under both the PPP and EIDL? We have not talked about EIDL at all on this call. I'm just going to make a quick note of it and if there are other questions that are sparked from this, please put them in the chat. EIDL is Economic Injury Disaster Loans, and it is a loan program also by the SBA. It's an existing loan program that didn't start from the CARES Act that had existed beforehand. It's historically been used in times of natural disasters, etc. The short short short of this is that typically for most entrepreneurs, the EIDL is not as favorable as PPP because none of the EIDL loan amount that, if you're approved, none of the loan amount is forgivable. So the great thing about the PPP is you could walk away with not having to owe any money back to the government, which is a huge thing for small business. EIDL you should think of as a more long-term solution and it is a loan that is a can be up to 30 year loan term and is at a low interest rate, but you have to pay it back all of it. You can apply for both EIDL and PPP, but you cannot use the funds from both loans for the same purposes. And the way that you'd want to use the funding is use PPP funds for payroll and then use EIDL for non-payroll costs. If the EIDL is used for payroll costs, your PPP amount will have to be used to refinance the EIDL. You don't want to get into that. If you take both, keep those separated and use PPP only for payroll purposes. Okay, yeah, and here's another popular one I've been getting a ton of. My business uses independent contractors not employees. Can I count their wages as payroll? My business does too. Great question. And the answer is no, you're not allowed to count the amount of money you're spending on independent contractors as payroll. However, the SBA allows independent contractors themselves to apply for PPP. So my recommendation, I literally was working with a client on this three hours ago, my recommendation is to, for the business owner, is to help your 1099 independent contractors work through the application process, make sure that they can apply for that PPP capital themselves, and then they'll have eight weeks worth of payment coming to them from the government directly. I think that's all of my FAQs. Yeah, I think that's right. And there is a couple of questions sparked from those two FAQs. Kyle, so thank you so much with the first one is going into a little bit more of, if I don't have a commercial lender or someone like that at my bank to walk me through the process of what I can do, where can I get this assistance, where are there other resources? Right. Well, first of all, my understanding is it is incredibly hard to get a commercial banker on the phone these days. So I want to say you're not alone. And it's very, it's very normal. Most people I know that have applied for this haven't talked to a banker at all. Interestingly, some of the folks at, that have had an existing relationship at a small community bank, have actually been able to have a human work, work with them through the process. But I just want to say that that's the exception, not the rule. And the applications themselves are pretty, are fairly straightforward, fortunately. I've seen a lot of them from a lot of different banks. And it's not, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to answer these questions. It's a pretty simple online form to fill out. As far as resources to understand and understand how to calculate, specifically, there's questions around how do you calculate payroll? Some of, if you have a payroll provider, for instance, if you're working with gusto, or if you're working with just works or somebody like that, they oftentimes will have a downloadable packet that you can use for PPP purposes, which is a really nice resource. And then, I would say that the playbook that we put together has a lot more granularity than our talk has given today. And the feedback that we've been getting from thousands of people is that it's actually readable. You can actually understand it. So I would recommend those two resources. And then with the EIDL, wasn't the first 10,000 forgivable or given as a grant? There's a lot of confusion around this. The answer is, I think the intent was that that is true. And there is the amount of people that have been really pissed off because they're like, where's my free $10,000? Because that is definitely the way that it was marketed at the outset. It does not match the reality, which is that they, surprise, surprise, free money is really popular. And so they were pretty overwhelmed with the system and what they ended up doing is saying that, okay, so this $10,000 grant is the way we're going to apply that is that we will max it out at 10,000, and it will be 1,000 per employee that you have. And there's a question around whether if you get approved, whether or not that 10K is rolled into the overall principle of the loan or it's not. I think intent was that it's not, but I don't have enough data to know that that's how it's actually being executed. And what is the maximum amount for PPP and for EIDL? Is it 2 million or is it 10 million or is it 20 million? We've heard all three of these possibilities as possibilities. Yeah, I am trying to remember EIDL and I don't remember that I've stopped in my head. For PPP, it's max of 10 million, 10 million max on PPP, and that's all based on payroll cost. So you'd have to be a pretty big company to have payroll costs, you know, two and a half of your months that put you at like $4 million a month payroll, something like that, or $3.5 million a month payroll. So you could max out there, but it's you'd have to be a pretty big company to hit the max. So I just want to note to everyone to get in their final questions, since we have Kyla as a captive audience here. We have a specific one from Teevon about sort of if the damage to Coronavirus is not today's cash, but loss of a contract and that had future value and the loss net present value is significant of like a $5 million loss in present value, can that count as a loss or cost or disaster? If so, what discount rate do we use to recognize this loss in today's value? I'm unclear what that that is in reference, is that it's just like, is this how I adjust the, like this is a financial question about how this reflects in the valuation of my company? Yeah, so basically, they said I have in, yes, yes, basically. Yeah, the answer is any shot at answering that that I would be giving would be just like taking a taking a shot. I'm probably not the guy you want to turn to to run your bucks. So I'm going to pass on that one, just realizing my circle of competence and realizing that's here and I'm here. Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Pram. I know this is just speculating, but do you have a feel for us to whether there will be a third tranche for PPP? It is speculation and I do have a feel. I'm betting yes. I just, again, surprisingly, free money is really popular and it tends to play well to both Republicans and Democrats right now. So there's no constituents are overwhelmingly in support of this and that means that senators and congressmen are as well. We'll see if that support wins. It's really interesting to me as if I can give a side tangent that there is, you know, we're definitely in a very Keynesian moment right now and the amount of money that we're printing is insane and it's really interesting that it's happening under a conservative, quote unquote conservative government, although that's from an economics perspective. It's very interesting to see this amount of money being printed. I think it's going to be really interesting to see globally how this impacts all of our economies. We're all Keynesians now. Yeah, exactly. And for that, if you were to speculate for a third tranche, any idea of how much that might be? Pure speculation. Yeah, well, let's keep speculating, right? Why not? So all the first tranche was around 350, second tranche was 310. And so I would imagine a third tranche would be in the 300s as well. We'll see. It's kind of see how far that that gets you. They just want to really, the unemployment numbers are spiking like crazy right now. Like we've never seen before in history. And we want they just want to do everything they can to blunt those numbers. And this is one way to do it. And I have a crude cost to pay people in 2019. And in January 2020, can I use this as proof of paying employees and can that and can then do their 2.5 x their cost of for PPP is the question? I don't know if that makes sense. I think what I'm hearing is that they they're they've accrued costs, but they haven't paid them. So they've accrued payroll costs, but they haven't paid those payroll costs. And I don't know how that's documented. I would guess that the answer would be that I would be very doubtful that a bank would would rely on that as proof of of salary. So I would say it's unlikely. Typically, you see like a W3 or a 10 for 10 41 or 10 to 44 form or a report from your payroll provider as the key documents that that are being used. So I would be surprised if that would that would work. And just in terms of your own perspective, based on your your experience, how do you believe small businesses will fare coming out of this? Do you expect that most will survive? No, I don't expect most will survive. Most I expect most will survive. I expect more than half will survive. I think that there will be a good chunk that will not. And I have no doubt that a lot will downsize become a little bit more lean and understand a little bit better about where they can actually make their revenue. And then it'll take a while for them to hire back up. What I've been seeing just kind of rough, rough numbers is about a 30% hit on most kind of small businesses that we're working with to revenue. And it depends on how fat your margins are and how kind of lean lean or not lean your cushion is as to whether that will mean headcount reduction for your company. But I think expecting 30% or more reduction in revenue is a really good expectation. And kind of just finally finally to sort of start wrapping up our conversation today. I'd love to hear from you just any sort of final thoughts and insights that you have that you think would be useful to share with the group. Sure. I guess I just want to say that if you're on this call and you're a business owner, this is a pretty uncertain time which brings up a lot of fear. And I think it is easy to make snap judgments or make decisions out of fear in this moment. I think that the people that will survive and thrive in the long term will be able to take a breath and ask the questions, what am I actually delivering to my clients? What's the value that we're actually creating? How can we do that better even in this moment than we have in the past? And I think the folks that are able to answer that question will survive and will be stronger when this whole thing dies down. And so those are the key questions. Obviously the question that we've been talking about today is a very tactical question which is how do I keep people paid in the meantime? Very real and practical question. I think the bigger questions are how can I provide value? How can I show to my client, to my customer that what we're doing is adding value to their life? So I'd say the question to be focused on is that right now. And any sort of final thoughts in terms of just reiterating resources where people can go, other sort of financial support for, you mentioned the independent contractors, just to reiterate that. As far as resources go, this is a warning, plug coming. I'm about to plug my own stuff. So this playbook that we've put together is a really good resource. It's free and it's pretty in depth. It talks about PPP, which we talked about today, EIDL, and it talks about tax and a little bit of legal stuff as well. So it's a pretty good bundle and pretty skimmable and you can dive in in sections that are meaningful to you. But I bring that up as a good starting point. The reason why I bring that up is because if you will have a link that you can go to to download that, if you go there and download that you'll also be put on a mini little email then putting together with all of the updates as they're coming out, typically two emails a week of like the new stuff that is important for you to know. So the stuff in the playbook is good, it's solid, but it's also stale in some ways. So the benefit of signing up is that you get the fresh content as it's coming out in fresh analysis. So that would be, I think the resource that I would point you to, to give you both the basis and the most current news. If you don't feel like going to SBA's site and clicking refresh and then reading through their PDFs, I can do that for you. Yeah. And I think just a final question from, you know, us at Intentional Media and SoCAP and Spectrum and all the things that are coming up, the events that are coming up that we will share in our recap email as well so you guys get all the information and resources for upcoming events and webinars. I'd love to just hear from you any sort of insight in terms of how you think in a positive way this whole situation is going to benefit the ecosystem and maybe benefit small businesses in the long run just to kind of end in sort of a positive a positive note as well. You're asking me, Kyle, find the silver lining please. You know, my hope is that this moment will allow a resurgence in conscious consumption, that there will be a higher level of intentionality and thinking in our purchases coming out of this. Maybe we'll be consuming less, but maybe consuming better is kind of my hope and that it will allow consumers, clients to ask the question of like where, who are the valuable companies that I do want to kind of give my dollar to? If there are less dollars to go around, how do I want to spend my money? To the extent that we can be an answer to that, I think that that's a huge competitive advantage truthfully coming out of this. Well, thank you so much, Kyle. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today. Again, we will be sharing all of these resources presentation with everyone who has participated in the call and people who weren't able to RSVP. Also just a shout out, you know, if you have, if any of you have an idea for a small virtual event for our series, please email us at info at socialcapitalmarkets.net. We'll also include that shout out in our recap email. So thank you so much, Kyle. Thank you for everyone who was able to attend today. And we look forward to being in touch and using all of the resources that you've presented during the call. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Kyle. Have a good rest of the day. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, Sarah. Take care, everyone. Take care.