 You want to get strong in the real world? In other words, the kind of strength that transfers outside of the gym. Try this. Offset loading. What's offset loading? This is when you load your body in an unbalanced way. And no, I'm not talking about bouncy balls and stability balls and weird dyna discs and stuff like that. That's not what I'm talking about. I mean, literally offset weight on your body like a suitcase carry or a one arm shoulder press holding a barbell. Not a dumbbell. Why does this make you strong in the real world? Because nothing in the real world is perfectly balanced like a barbell. The energy and power leaks that you experience when you try to lift something limits your strength. So strengthen your body in a way to where it can exert power when you're offset. By the way, the old, wise, strong men of the past understood this. And let me tell you, they kicked the crap out of the average bodybuilder today. This is a forgotten art. Why do you think this fell out of favor? Because hard? Yes, really hard. That's to me, that's too easy of a default answer. It's like there's a lot of hard stuff that we continue to do. There's risky and like the things I think right like right away, I think especially having a kid like carrying a kid like that. There's so much value in training with loaded on one side like that because that's how you'll always carry your kid. You'll always carry your kid like on one hip or one side. You're not going to hold him like this? Yeah, you're not like perfectly bat like nobody holds a kid like this. You know, like the kid doesn't move. Yeah, so it's like that's something that men and women have to do our entire history. And so why would we lose that? And where would we, where would it disconnect? Like, oh, we no longer need to do that. I know the answer. Really? Yes, 100%. I know the answer. I thought a lot about this. It's because we began worshiping the symptom and the visual effects of strength rather than the strength itself. Okay. If you go back, you go back and now I referred to the old wise, you know, men and women of the past in the strength world back then, and we're looking at the turn of the century, right? You know, 1890s and then the early 1900s. How you looked was cool, but it was really about what you could do because the world revolved around what you could do. Now you go back before that, you go back a thousand years. Nobody cares how awesome you look. It's what you can do. Can you swing this heavy sword? Can you pick up this boulder? Can you do lots of work? And then the side effect of that was people who were able to do those things tended to look a particular way. And if you look at the contests in the strength world in the past, they all involved some type of function. And then they started to include a round where people actually showed off their bodies. And eventually it was the body showing off part that took over. And nobody cared about this physical like, like specimen. Yes. Just by doing these strength feats. Do you think like when Eugene Sandow walked around with his shirt off at the pool back in the days, like that actually women didn't think it was attractive or wasn't into it? Oh, no. So Eugene, I'm so glad you brought him up. He's the perfect example of when this started to shift. OK, so go before him a bit later, yeah. So give me a guy. We've looked at some, obviously we've looked up some of these old timing guys, right? And you've shown me people well before even Sandow that like, actually I didn't realize how good some of their physiques looked. I remember when we first started, you first, you brought all those books and I started looking. I'm like, dude, there was some like bad ass physiques that didn't get highlighted. So my question is, because it was such an anomaly back then, and it wasn't, you know, praised or highlighted. Did that guy take his shirt off at a pool? And girls go, oh, that's weird. You know what? Yeah, they did. I bet. It must be like initially. Right? No, you're right. It's different. You're right. It was more of like an oddity. Yeah, like what's wrong with him? Yes. Like he's deformed or something like that. There's something wrong with his metabolism or something. Yeah, yeah. So if you go back, right, first off, Eugene Sandow, let's just talk about him for a second. This man, under 200 pounds, by the way, if you look at his body, even by today's standards, he looked incredible. Yeah. Lean. Well, he's the trophy. Muscular. He's the trophy for Mr. Olympia. He looked incredible. And the reason why he became famous was because he was one of the first strong men who looked a particular way, didn't just perform strength feats. So he was actually quite smart, and he would display his physique and also was able to perform. Whereas before that, it was really just about the performance. In fact, Eugene Sandow's records were beat by George Hackenschmitt shortly afterwards. And but why is Eugene Sandow known more? Because he posed and people saw his physique and they connected the two. And it was like he was bringing it back to the Greek ideals with Greek statues and stuff like that that were kind of immortalizing the beauty of. See, that's where I kind of think he was probably bringing back a bit of what might have been known from statues and things like that. So yeah, it probably was odd initially, but I'm sure ladies went home that night later and just couldn't get it out of their head. You know, just it planted a seed. So I don't know, because there's a lot of, I mean, we've done surveys and stuff on women today and the average woman, when you put like a shredded bodybuilder guy next to kind of a dad bod, like the most women will actually pick that. Now that's today's society. And we've been inundated with all these great looking bodies. So you have to ask yourself that if you go back even further. Well, I'll give you an example. Here's an example right now. And this is to the women listening. And I guarantee you 90% of them will agree. And I think men know this as well. Imagine if you had two men, okay, standing next to each other and you could see their bodies. One guy was like shredded and ripped and muscular. And the other guy just looked like a, I don't know, normally fit guy. Not unhealthy, because that's different, right? You look unhealthy then it sends a different signal. Just kind of a normal fit looking guy. If they're just standing there, I'm sure the average woman will be like, wow, look at that muscular, amazing physique. Now imagine if both of them with their shirts off and everything went and go build something or had to chop some wood or fight off some shit or who knows? And then you saw the other guy who's not as ripped and shredded in the way he moved and what he could do and how he could function. And let's say the shredded, ripped looking guy couldn't do any of that stuff. 100% the women would stop finding that man attractive. And would all of a sudden look at the guy that could do all the shit and be like, oh, that's way hotter. It's the physical feats. Yes. I mean, it's undeniable when you see like a body that's built doing things that are really difficult and they're really strong and powerful with it. It's kind of hard to deny. So I agree with that. The question I would have is like, how much is the disparity? You gave an example of like the super shredded guy and the guy that looks average, but would that even work on the guy who like kind of looks a little sloppy? You know what I'm saying? He's barely on him. He doesn't look like he, but he's functional and he could lift the things and he could do the physical stuff. He could chop the wood, he could build the house and the other guys. I think it depends on the scenario. Like ripped, but metrosexual. I think it depends on the scenario. So I'll give you an extreme. You got a guy that looks kind of sloppy and then you got a guy that looks all shredded and then they're in a situation where they have to protect a bunch of people from let's say like criminals. And the shredded guy runs away and screams like a little baby and the other guy throws down. He's way hotter immediately. And the other guy is not attractive whatsoever. By the way, the things that we tend to find attractive today really, if you look at the root, the root is in the capabilities that got you there. So like for example, why do women find men who are wealthy attractive? It's because it's evidence of his ability. Right, right. He can hunt, he can say, he can say. Or just support and create and whatever. Oh yeah, that's what I meant by hunt. That's in today's modern time of like being a hunter killer, right? This is why a trust fund baby guy who's got tons of money but is a freaking spoiled brat is not attractive to a woman. Whereas a guy who's got less money but dude earned it himself is confident, works for it, far more attractive. So the same thing goes with physique is that we look at bodies and we find them attractive. And nowadays you don't have to test yourself as much. Things are safe. Guys don't have to do shit like they used to. So really all you have is the evidence of what they look like. How terrible are men though? Nothing that's not the same for us. What do you mean? Like if you put that example of like, no it is not. Absolutely. You put a woman in front of two different women and one of them is like completely out of shape and can go do whatever physical. No, not that, not that. If you look at, if you have, because we've also distorted it in the other direction. So what we might find like hip to waist ratio, fertility and then they go extreme in that direction. So that's different. Yeah, but okay, we don't go back to it. I mean, how is that the same for women? No way, it's, no it's not. Okay, well I'll give you a scenario. You got two women, one of them looks perfect, the other one looks healthy. Yeah, okay. Why do we have to use this that close? Poor health is a really strong signal. Okay, well don't say poor health, just say kind of sloppy. Not like like poor like, she don't look like she's ever touched away. Yeah, but she looks healthy. There's a difference. You can look like you don't work out but look healthy. You can also look like you don't work out and look unhealthy. Okay, okay. Fine, doesn't look like they work out but doesn't look like, well the person's unhealthy versus like perfect. Now watch them, now have them care for you, care for your kids, show compassion or do any of the things that men tend to value. So I disagree. And then the other one is like gold digger, stuck on herself, whatever. I disagree, you see examples of that? Yeah, no, totally disagreeing. You'd be more attracted to the gold digger. No, no, don't spring me into this. I do because I've dated a lot of women, I've dated a lot of the wrong women and then I've figured out like that. Oh, you're secure. Right, I've figured that out. Yes, I'm referring to secure people. I'm talking, oh well that's the eight, by the way, that's not most people. No, no, I'm not. In a normal scenario like that, and we see examples of that, I mean how many rich dudes pick the girl who's just beautiful, she's not capable of doing hardly anything. No, no, you're right, you're right. Let me back up. I'm referring to secure people. When people are really insecure, it all goes out the fucking window. Okay, yeah, but here's the thing though. Because then the woman might want to do, that just looks good. No, I think even an insecure woman still makes that decision you made. I don't think security, that's why the sexes are different here. This is where I think that. Let me use another example. An insecure woman might want the rich trust fund baby over the guy who makes a couple hundred grand a year who is an entrepreneur. Well, that's still logical because she still is gonna get support. She's still gonna get financial support. She's still gonna get. If they could both support her, but one's super rich and the other one's like, okay. The insecure woman might be like, I don't care, I just want all the money is my point. Whereas like an insecure guy might be like, I want the perfect looking gold digger, you know, girl that doesn't do anything else versus the one that, okay, it doesn't look as good but is actually genuine caring. So yeah, when you're insecure, that goes out all the window. It just throw everything out the window. I guess is what I'm trying to say. I'm talking about secure, healthy attraction is connected to those things. I mean, your point is really good with I think the analogy. I just think with men, men are so visual that that matters so much more. Unfortunately, it's not like it's just that. Sex or for a partnership? Mating period. Oh, just sex is different. Yeah, throw that the window. So back to the offset loading. Thank you. Yeah, anyways, attraction, that's a whole another conversation. But yeah, I was thinking about that in terms of the structure of the gym and like how we've seen that completely evolved. So, you know, as you can see, like most of it is now like based on kind of comfort like single body part kind of focus like ways to be able to kind of pump your muscles up without having to, I guess, strain through and like really do these like difficult offset loaded like real functional type of movements. So give an example back to Eugene Sandow. Here was a guy who under 200 pounds could do a one arm bent press, which is essentially lifting something in the air with one arm. Okay, there's a technique to it, but imagine somebody lifting something straight up in the air with one arm, 270 pounds and it wasn't a dumbbell. It was a long barbell. So imagine how hard that is. So the strength is incredible. Now, you know, you mentioned pumping up muscles and stuff like that. What kind of a body does that build? It builds a body that looks and you know this when you see it, it looks strong in the real world. If you look at the physiques of these people, they had their core was incredibly built and strong, strong oblique, strong core, very strong looking upper back, shoulders, hands and forearms, strong legs. They looked like they were stronger than the average person who is just as maybe ripped or whatever at the same body weight. So it builds a tremendous physique and we're missing out. So even somebody listening right now who's like, I don't care about that because I'm not gonna have to do anything, you're missing out by doing stuff like a heavy loaded suitcase carry. Or like when's the last time somebody did an overhead one arm press, not with a dumbbell, with a barbell? They try lifting a barbell with one hand. It's kinda hard to do this. It's super hard. What is that requirement? What are we training? Especially when you put plates on there. Even if you do super light plates, it's hard to do that. I feel like, you know, what they used to build up, like it was sort of its own check and balance because to be able to lift a heavy weight like that unilaterally over your head, I mean, you have to have a pretty reinforced system to be able to sustain that and be able to keep your core nice and strong and supporting the spine and the hips. Today's giveaway is the Maps Super Bundle. That's a lot of programs out there we're gonna give away for free. Here's how you can win. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it. Subscribe to this channel and then turn on your notifications if you win, we'll let you know in the comment section. We're also running a sale, the first sale on Maps and a Bullock Advance. That's our newer program. This one is by far the most effective muscle building program we have. This one will pack muscle and strength on your body in a hurry. It's incredible and it's 50% off. If you're interested, click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, here comes the show. Do you think that when like the Bend Press, do you think that was born out of like, oh, this is a good movement or this was the most functional way to get the most amount of weight above our head? That one. And then it turned into an exercise. Yeah, so the goal was get the heaviest weight above your head. And then there's the best technique. Yeah, that would be interesting to have watched the evolution of that. It'd be interesting to see how they experimented their way to that process. Yeah, because you know the first try wasn't that. Well, even in the Bend Press, like you see there's like crazy technique with that and like they're actually, they've learned how to not let it sort of stop here in the shoulder joint in terms of like the force. They're able to learn how to distribute the force. So if you get your obliques involved, you get your back involved, you get your hips involved. All bigger muscles, by the way. All bigger muscles. Now you have to contribute to stabilize the weight. And then you can, and then now like that lever is so much more effective. Yeah, you know what's crazy about this too is that when you, what we don't, a lot of us don't realize, when we've been working out for a while, that the limiter to our strength has less to do with the exercise that we keep trying to get stronger in and more to do with the fact that there's a leak in power or there's an instability that we have yet to identify. So I'll use myself as an example. I love deadlifting. I'm good at deadlifting. It's the one lift that I can do that I feel real confident if I'm around other strong people. Well, my deadlift went up because I did an exercise that I had no idea would contribute to my deadlift which was offloaded carries or offloaded overhead presses. Why? Well, if I break it down now as a trainer, there was probably an instability there laterally with my QL or one of my obliques or something like that. So I was practicing like these suitcase carries with a barbell, which is really weird and awkward. Then I went to go do a deadlift and the weight came up. It just came up very smooth. It felt very different because I had done something that my body needed to be done that I couldn't really even break down knowing as much as I know with my own, my traditional methods. So like, what's my whole point with this? Like there's a lot of wisdom that we can learn from a lot of these exercises that are not popular anymore that we used to be very popular for a reason. We just don't do them. Yeah, you know what I mean? What I think of immediately is like there is this need for mobility. There's this need for that sort of supplemental movement to what we've created in terms of like the environment of the gym, the way that we train. There was definitely a deficit there. And using these kind of unconventional lifts are the ones that were a little more demanding in terms of functional strength. It covered all that. It strengthened all of those muscles to where it really didn't require a lot of the mobility to address these things. Well, think 100 years ago, okay, there were no desk jobs. Every job was somewhat physically taxing and required mobility. And like, so it was so much more common. I think that has a lot to do with why a lot of this fell out of favor too. It was just like, because we've now shifted to where the majority of jobs are not physical labor. Most jobs today are sitting at a day. That just didn't even exist. So it's just like, I think real quickly, and then you add that to the like, oh, we care more just about aesthetics. So it's like, oh, what's the quickest way just to get to this aesthetically looking? Well, imagine if, I'm gonna use an analogy. Imagine if driving, nobody drove cars anymore for whatever reason we could float or whatever we could just like, like Star Trek, right? I'd love to float. I know, but people still got cars, but nobody drove cars. It would very quickly move from what went inside the car to how the car looked. Nobody would give a shit about the engine if all you ever did was look at it. It was all about how it looked. So then we would do things to make it look fast. When in the past, it was, okay, cool, that looks fast, but is it actually fast? You know, it's funny, back in the day, so what they used to do with these competitions, what they call the bronze era of the strength competitions is people would show up and they would do these challenges. So it'd be like Eugene Sandow versus so-and-so or so-and-so versus so-and-so. They would show up, they'd stand on the stage and initially I'm sure people would look at them and be like, wow, look how big that guy is or oh my God, look at the whatever. Then they'd go right into the competition, who can lift the most weight. Nobody gave a shit anymore. In fact, if you looked a lot bigger and stronger than the other person and you lost, it was even more of an embarrassment and even bigger plus for the other person. There's this guy called the, I don't remember his name, the mighty Adam. Yeah, the mighty Adam. He's either one, one of them had like a crazy- Bro, he's this tiny dude and he would like bend like, you know, prison bars and do weird shit. And he was famous because he was this little dude who was so strong. So- What is, okay, this may be a stupid question. What are all the era, bronze, golden, what exactly, how do they get their name? Like why is it the bronze era? Why is it the golden era? So bronze, I think what they're trying to do is like, you know how in, with empires and the discovery of metals, it became like bronze was the first metal. It's almost like the tools they have to work with. Yeah, I think that's what they came with. But anyway, bronze- Find that out, I'm curious. I mean, it would be iron. It went bronze and then silver. Silver would be, I think 1940s to early 60s. Oh, so there is a silver era. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so it went like bronze, then it went to like silver, maybe 1930, 1940s to 1960s, and then the golden era, which we all know of as being like the 70s and 80s. So what is now? Yeah. I don't know what they call it. Yeah, I don't know what they refer to it now. I didn't know there was a silver era. Platinum era. Yeah. But when you hear golden era, like the golden era bodybuilding, they're talking about Arnold's era. Everybody refers to that as the golden era, for sure. No, and that one I was more familiar with. I wasn't really familiar with even the bronze era until you guys started talking more about the old- But you could see the evolution of strength sports going from what you could do to what you could do and how you looked to just how you look. Like now, the most popular strength sport or like bodybuilding I should say, nobody knows or cares about what they could do. It's all about how they look. It was the opposite in the bronze era, and then it slowly moved into, even in the silver era, they had competitions where bodybuilders would flex, but then they'd have to perform physical- So what's the- I would love to see that. Honestly, to incorporate more people, I think, yes, the physical specimen, the body that you've built, but now like let's see it in motion. Let's see what you can do in terms of a functional strength. You know what, social media has brought that back a little bit. Oh yeah, a little bit. Yeah, exactly. You follow your favorite bodybuilders and you love watching some of them. Like the Ronnie Coleman thing was like a big deal, right? Yeah, or some of them don't rank high in bodybuilding at all, but are well-known more for their feet, like Larry Wills. Larry Wills' bodybuilder. But he doesn't really do well with bodybuilding. He does have a great physique, but he's strong as fuck. But ridiculously strong, and he became way more well-known. His dad, Efforting, didn't really win lots of competitions in bodybuilding, but he was so strong, that's kind of how he built his name. So what's the evolution look like? Do you think we come back? Do we actually come back to this? Like do we get to a place where that is highlighted more and it is something that we care about? That's a good question. I don't know, yeah. Does it come full circle? Is it a blend in the future like you're kind of alluding to? Like what does it look like? Or do we move into something completely different? I like that it's a little bit of a blend. You know, we saw this with women too. CrossFit did this pretty well with women, where all of a sudden like strong women became kind of cool again, but it wasn't because of how they looked. It was what they did. And then people said, oh, they also kind of look good. CrossFit did that a little bit for women. And you see with social media too, now women are celebrating more of like their lifts than before. Still not nearly as popular as how you look. Yeah. Same with the thing with the mask. I don't know where it goes. Yeah, literally it does got the actual breakdown of the years. What does it say? 1894 to 1939. Okay, there you go. Silver era is 1940 to 1959. Golden era is 1960 to 1983. What does that mean for you? Yeah, what is now? That's what I wanted to know. Yeah, I don't know. It just stops there. How funny is that? Yeah. How lame is that? Everybody else sucks. Yeah. Oh man. It's pretty wild. The exercise and the workout routines change a lot too, which is kind of interesting. If you look at the routines of the, you know, the bronze era versus the, you know what sucks about this by the way is that as we move through different, because bodybuilding still has a huge influence on how people work out. Okay. Although now we're seeing more influence from other, you know, strength sports, which is pretty cool. But what sucks is as we move into new like phases, we tend to like lose the wisdom of the previous ones. I know, I know. Instead of like compounding and being like, hey, let's not just throw everything out from bodybuilding. Yeah, let's not throw everything. Let's like exactly find a way to, no, that is so, it's so strange to me. Like I personally have never been like that. Like I'm generally curious about all these different modalities and like, oh, obviously there's a whole cohort of people that love this modality. There's got to be something there, right? Even if it's something that doesn't really appeal, like I'm not a big yoga guy, but I remember even like when being around yoga, going like, well, there's got to be something really valuable here. Yeah, that many people. I got a great example because a lot of people will remember this. This literally happened and it's what's funny to me is it's starting to go back again, which is really weird. When we were like in the middle, like in the beginning of our fitness career. So you're looking at late 90s, early 2000s. There were exercises that there was lots of wisdom behind them that completely fell out of favor. We talked about them all the time, barbell squats, barbell deadlifts. Literally, I know people listening right now who are younger than us don't can't even comprehend that this was a thing, but I swear to God, you went into a gym in the late 90s, early 2000s. Nobody barbell squatted. Nobody, nobody deadlifted. This is so much not an exaggeration that I kid you not. I could go probably almost a year and not see a squat done in the gym. You could go five years and not see a deadlift. Yeah, oh, definitely, definitely. I didn't even know what a deadlift was for me for my career. Like that's how. They scare people. That's how foreign it was in a commercial big gym. I'm not talking about some powerlifting gym. Actually, the only place you would see barbell squats and barbell deadlifts. It's a powerlifting gym. Powerlifting gym, yeah. You wouldn't see a bodybuilding gym either. Or an athletic gym. Of course. But yeah, I mean, again, what works, like that was always kind of a place and I was a little bit skewed because that, but every time I was in a commercial gym, it was like nobody was using squat rack. Nobody even had more than one squat rack. The biggest 24-of-in is 50,000 plus square foot, one squat rack at all. In the corner. Dusty. Yeah. And people would do. By some girls in it. Straight bar. That's where the meme came from. Yeah. That meme came from that because there was definitely a transition of where that's what people were doing. The reason why this is such a good example is people now, if you tell them, how valuable is a deadlift? How valuable is a squat? They're like, oh my God, best exercises ever. Best results ever. Just to, and that just goes to show you how the wisdom can be so lost, how people can become so ignorant. We are talking about some of the most effective exercises that strength athletes knew about. If you went back to the 60s, 70s, early 80s, everybody did deadlifts and squats. Everybody. Then everybody stopped doing them. And it was so forgotten that people, you're talking about the best exercises ever. Nobody did them at all. That's how forgotten it was. So to think that we're all of a sudden more aware now and that couldn't possibly happen now, you are fooling yourself. And I'm talking about the exercises that I mentioned earlier in this episode are some of those exercises. You never see anybody do heavy suitcase carries or one-arm presses with barbells or bent presses or whatever. You'll never see those in the gym. Does that because they're not effective? No, they're super effective at developing incredible physiques and strength. It's just forgotten. Just needs to be taught and needs to be a focus. Totally forgotten. You know what's another one? Bentover rows. Nobody did those. Excuse me, pullovers. Nobody did pullovers. There were so many exercises that people stopped doing that how everybody... Did you see all the comments on our, or the true king of all exercises, the deadlift conversation? Oh, that was a great debate. That always brings people out of the woodwork. Yeah, no, our pretty friend, Steve, he jumped in there on the clean to a red press. He is gorgeous. He got a lot of likes for it, but I was like, you know, the problem with that, and what I said was the same reason why, the reason why a clean to press is not the king of all exercises is the same reason why a overhead squat would not be, is because the limiting factor is how much you can press. And so as much as I agree that that's a great movement, and that if you could get that skill to do that, that just keeping that skill up forever is gonna keep you pretty damn strong. This thought process is like full incorporation of your body, right? So like, there's really not a lot of examples like that, but that is such a high skill movement. We're trying to talk about relatable exercises that people kind of sharpen and work on all the time in their programming. That's one that's like, I, you know, and there's part of me is like, yeah, I can see where he's going with that, but in terms of, you know, squat versus deadlift, that's just a little bit more in the zeitgeist. Well, you have to take an account, okay, what is the record? What's the world record for a clean and press? Yeah, it's not gonna come close to a deadlift. Yeah, no. That's a lot, by the way, but that's an Olympic lifter. Yeah, but let's say that was a 400 something, 500 pounds tops. It's not like a thousand pounds of deadlift. And the guy who could put a thousand pounds on a deadlift bar is going to theoretically build more overall muscle than the person who can do a clean and press for that. Yeah, well, it goes like this for people who aren't familiar, trainers will know this, but for people who aren't familiar, there's like a scale of skill that is required to perform an exercise. Why is that important? Because if you don't have the skill, you can't acquire the benefits of the exercise. So in other words, if you can't curl, because you don't have the skill of curl, and I'm using extreme examples so people get it. If you can't curl, because you don't have the skill of the curl, well then you can't get the benefits of the curl. So if you look at the skill list, it goes like, it kind of goes something like this. And we could break it down even further, but it kind of looks like this, single joint exercises, multi-joint exercises, then it goes lifting with speed is at the top of skill. Now I could break that way down, we could go like supported, unsupported, unilateral, blah, blah, blah, blah, but lifting weight with speed is the pinnacle of skill and 99.9% of the people out there and 98% of the people in gyms cannot don't have the skill to lift properly with speed. That's all it is. So a clean and press is like, there's speed involved with that. Most people who work out regularly can do that. It's very exposing, yeah. That's why I think the argument falls on his face is just that it's a good point he brings up that if you could do that movement and just stick doing to that movement for the rest of your life, it has tremendous overall value, health, strength, everything was, but the entry level to that is like, like you said, 90-something percent. It's at the pinnacle of the population. And I mean, I already think the deadlifting and squatting is already like, that's for the average person, that's technical, shit. And you could spend half of your lifting career getting good at that and figuring that out, which leaves lots of opportunity for growth and change. Well, the truth is, if you give me a 35-year-old who's not fit, but otherwise healthy, I'll be able to get them to squat and deadlift at some point, and then they'll be able to reap all those benefits. You may never be able to get them to clean at best. A good percentage of them will never be able to do a proper lift. I didn't teach it, in fact. I didn't teach it all the years I trained. I didn't have anybody that. And there's other ways to get speed in a lift without being so technical like a kettlebell, right? You could use something so much easier. There's only athletes, like young athletes I did that with. Yeah, anyway, I'm gonna take us in another direction. What's funny about what I'm about to say, it's just, yeah, Adam, you remind me of this so much, like we're sitting here, we're sitting here talking about how you look and what a woman or guy is gonna find attractive. And you and I can go off so hard on debates and arguments and stuff. And it cracks me up because you and I are so similar in the sense that, I think we like arguing so much because we both learn that way, but for everybody around us, I'm like, shut the fuck up. It's exhausting. I know, it's exhausting. Some people appreciate it, some people don't. It's like, I mean, again, it's probably why we're polarized. I saw the last YouTube video that went up when we dabbled in religion and God talk, right? That's always gonna divide your audience. And, you know, of course there's, I mean, I know I put myself out there when I start talking with you. One of the things I love, I'll put this out there just kind of. Yeah, but you help balance it so much, dude. It's important to have that like, I don't know, even as somebody that's sort of like in the middle a lot of times, you know, with what the hell's going on over here, like I still appreciate that, even if it's not like a strong counterpoint, like it's still like something to kind of like taper it down a little bit. Well, I'm gonna say this, just to lower the tension for everybody. It's very rare. And I know this because I'm this person, meaning I annoy a lot of people because of it. And I'm sure you do too, Adam. It's very rare to find somebody that you could really argue with who enjoys it and then afterwards you're done. Yeah, most people don't like it. Nobody gets emotionally charged by it. Yeah, or we get emotionally charged too, but after we're done, we're done. And afterwards I think back, I'm like, that was fun. Yeah, maybe it's not like overkill. No, because a lot of people just, they don't like it, it's uncomfortable. So it's very rare to find someone. You and I just tend to be like that. Yeah, I look at it almost like the same way I look at sport. Like I really love, I love sport so much that getting beat or losing doesn't like make me so angry or have a bad, like I love to win so much that I'm okay with losing on the way to learning how to win, right? And so a debate is like that same way for me. And so my feelings don't get hurt when someone is aggressively, and I mean, we operate our business that way. I mean, that's one of the reasons why it's survived as long as it has survived is because we embrace that, we encourage that. Listen, if you have a point and you believe in it, like strongly enough to where you wanna argue and debate about it, like bring that shit on because I wanna hear that. And if I disagree passionately, like I wanna see that because that's where the holes are gonna come out, right? That's where, and you, at the end of it, many times we have that, I walk away going, oh, you know what? I actually didn't think of it that way. Like now I get where he's coming from or whatever. Or you feel, you go like, yeah, I'm pretty sure he tried to poke holes in all that and it didn't go the way he thought it was gonna go. So it takes me exactly, I learned by listening. That's why you're so weird. You're the one really reaping the benefits of it. I know. You get liked, you get the most liked by it, right? So we have to be the polarizing personalities, right? It's like communication's a whole new thing for me. I've been trying to sharpen it forever, so eventually I'll get in there. I think you're just wise. I think that's what it is. But anyway, so as to say, nobody wants a three-way argument. It takes, no, three ways are cool, but not an argument. Sorry for the joke, Doug. So this segway is perfect. That's unnecessary. I know. This segway is perfect because I was gonna talk about listening to your friends because there's so much value. I know everybody, especially on social media, likes to say, everybody else is bullshit. Don't listen to anybody. All that matters is what you think and I get the truth in that for sure. But I think we forget the value in, now I'm gonna preface this by saying real friends. So like real, not shitty, idiot, whatever. Like real friends. There's so much value in listening to your friends or your spouse or somebody that you trust because they're gonna be able to tell you things about yourself and about what you're doing that you're completely unaware of. And now why this is so valuable is because it requires a little trust. So like, I trust you guys tremendously. I trust my wife tremendously. If you guys say something to me and I disagree with it and you're like, Sal, you know you do this all the time and it irritates me and I'm like, no, I don't, no, I don't, no, I don't. And then later I can sit there and be like, okay, Justin, Adam, Doug, they're good guys. They're not full of shit. They're out for my best interests. I trust them. I'm gonna trust what they say even though inside I wanna argue with it. And then you have this great awareness. Now, the reason why I'm here with this is the value that I got from training clients is now I'm starting to realize it for myself in a lot of different ways. Cause in order for a trainer to be successful with their clients, the client has to get to that point because you train a client and half the time they don't believe what you're saying. But if they can get to a point where they just trust you, then the whole world opens up with regards to health and fitness. Such a great comparison. And I was gonna say before you even got to that point that the most difficult part about that is actually first finding somebody who truly cares for your wellbeing. Because like surface friends will, they'll wanna keep you below them. And so they're not gonna give you that kind of advice. One of my favorite quotes is, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And so you first as a coach and trainer, you have to be able to give that to your client. Like they have to know that you genuinely care about their wellbeing first. And that's the first goal. Even before getting them to lose weight and follow this business. And I was like, they have to like feel that I care about them and their wellbeing. And like that's all I'm trying to help them figure out. Once I can make that connection and then I can start to move them in the right direction by coaching up because you're right. Most people that hire you, they've already failed a bunch of times on their own and they already have their own ideology around the way and they're like, and they just think, they always think that they're gonna hire you and you can have some like magic trick that you're gonna send them. And a lot of times it's not. It's like actually helping them work through a lot of deep rooted shit. It's a lot of it's like counseling. And you have to help them get there. And it's like that a lot of them don't think they're signing up for that. I saw a clip that and people use this as a way to poke fun. It's kind of sad, but there was this clip. I don't remember what show it was from. It might've been one of those like my 600 pound life or something like that. And there was this girl and she's obviously, I think she looked like she was five or 600 pounds. And she's talking to a doctor and she's like, and so people were using this to poke fun. But as I watched it, I felt lots of empathy for what was going on. And she says, you know, I gotta just learn how to eat more vegetables because I'm a picky eater. And he goes, you're 600 pounds. You're not a picky eater. I'm trying to open my horizons to vegetables because I'm a pretty picky eater. You're not the picky eater if you're 600 pounds. And everybody laughed at it, ha, ha, ha, ha. And what I heard was she's in such denial that when someone tells her, you know, something like that, she doesn't wanna listen. I don't think that doctor was very effective in that case. Now imagine if she had a friend, and maybe she does, but imagine if she did this. She's got this friend, she's known for her whole life. And she goes, you know what? Me and Susan have known each other for a long time. Like I know she truly cares about me. And she's telling me I'm being like this. And even though I feel like I'm not and I wanna deny the shit out of it, I'm just gonna consider it that maybe they're telling me the truth. You imagine how far people could go if they could do that. That's the value of having good, you know, people around you. Oh, I would argue, I think that self-awareness is maybe the single most important thing, skill that you'll ever learn in your life. And evolving that skill, right? Getting better and better at that, I think is probably one of the most important things that you could ever do. And just to be successful, period in life. Not just financially business, but in friendships and relationships, in marriage and raising a child. Like the self-awareness key is like so, so important. You guys ever had moments like that where your wife, this is good with spouses too, especially because I think men and women we're getting married and then we just don't listen to it. You ever have a moment like that where your wife says the same thing when you're like, no, I don't, no, I don't. And then you just sit there and go, okay, maybe she's right. Maybe I am like that. This keeps popping up. Oh, okay. Acknowledge that. Yeah, I gotta work on that one thing right there. Yeah. I mean, it makes a huge difference. Well, I mean, yeah, that actually happened to me recently. It was like things that, I don't know, I don't like to necessarily go around and fix everything all the time. Like I know I do that sometimes to like, I'll lean into that and like use that as, what did they call it again? Like chore play. Chore play. Yeah, I might lean into chore play a little bit, but for the most part, I don't like doing it. And so, but I want to get things done as well. And so I'll do it and Courtney is a little more analytical, very like detail oriented. And so she'll see like my work and we'll just stare at it. And then we'll report back to me sometimes like, oh, hey, like, no, this isn't good enough. This isn't a good job, you know? And I'll be like, what are you talking about? Of course, it's like, I get all like defensive, you know? Cause it's like, yeah, like based on what I'm looking at, like I would have to, I know exactly what it'd take to do a good job. And it's sometimes that's like weeks or something. And like sometimes it's like, and so... You don't want to admit that. Yeah, I went faster. I don't want to admit that yes, I know like it's not perfect. Like I could have done a way better job but I got the job done, but she can't get past sometimes that, you know, she can see the flaw and won't let it go. And so this is like a conflict thing, but I've learned now that like, okay, like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I just have to do it right every time. And so I've gotten better at that, but that used to be a lot of conflict. That or prefaced it to her like, hey, if you want me to do this, you know the... That's the big one. Yeah, like, hey, I can do this, but it's going to be kind of a half-assed job. And if you want someone to do this professionally, like we should probably hire someone to go do that. Dude, this has been the constant conversation. So it happened with Jessica and I. So we're having a baptism for the baby. And I get very anxious when we have big parties at our house. I don't like big parties at my house. I feel like I gotta look at everything, I gotta watch everything, I gotta make sure everybody's whatever. I would rather pay a lot of money, have it done at a restaurant, and it's all catered and taken care of. And I just show up. Now she's the reverse. She gets more anxious when we're doing it at a restaurant or something because then she has to worry about the little ones when they take their naps. How do I do this with the baby? How do I do that? So there's this thing, right? So I'm like, I don't want to do this at the house. She's like, no, I'm going to plan the whole thing. So I want to do it here for the baby's naps or whatever. So I'm like fine, we'll do it here. So inside of me, I'm still a little upset about it and anxious. But what I do is I don't let myself feel that. She's like, whatever. So last night, she shows me this, we're going to do it kind of outside and we're going to have all the kids come and it's going to be hot. We're going to have like water games and stuff outside to cool everybody off. So she ordered this big like play structure thing and it was supposed to be here yesterday. She shows me this email. It's not going to be, now keep in mind this is happening tomorrow. She gets this email and it says, oh, we're not going to get it till 10 o'clock, till maybe 10 o'clock at night the night before. She's like, oh crap. She's like, we're going to have to put this together. And in my mind, I'm already like, you mean me? 10 o'clock at night, the night before? Now, what I didn't do. Selective we. Yeah, so instead I make all these other arguments. We get this big fight. The truth is, I didn't want to do this. I'm anxious about it anyway. Now I feel like I got to do more or whatever. But I didn't communicate that. Instead I communicate all this shit. We get this big old fight about each other stuff. So this morning I had to sit down and I was like, all right, she's telling me, because then she called me out. She's like, I think you're just feeling this way and I don't want to admit it. So I sat down like, yeah, you're right. That is what's going on. And then you have way better communication about the whole thing. But anyway, where's my point with this? My point with this is in order to be effective at progressing in any direction, if you have someone you trust, sometimes it's okay to have faith and listen to them. And now where is this taking me? Good trainers and good coaches understand this. Like your job as a coach or a trainer is to be able to earn the trust of your client. Otherwise you're worthless. Otherwise everything you say and do is worthless. The second they find it too challenging, the second they think whatever, you don't understand how hard it is for me, you love working out, you don't have kids, you don't work like I do, your back doesn't hurt, whatever, you are simply not gonna be effective. And trainers are almost never coached or taught this. Only one place I've seen talk about this, which is NCI, I've actually seen courses and entire curriculums devoted to teaching coaches how to get their clients to kinda trust what they're doing. I never learned any of that. I had to learn that the hard way as a coach. Ask the right questions and spark that communication because there's just so much there that they're unaware that they need to divulge to you. Like it's one of those things like you have to really look at it as more of a detective in the very beginning and be able to have somewhat of a predictive conversation that leads in a better direction so you structure everything more effectively. You know, speaking of NCI, I've been wanting to bring this up the next time we had a commercial for them. And we are really terrible at promoting and talking about the Wednesday call that we do with them. Oh yeah. Every time that I do like a post where I just, I get so many DMs and people are like, what is this? Where is this? I didn't know what to do. Yeah. And I don't know what the reason behind why we don't talk about it or promote it much. Maybe Doug, you can find out for me the exact link where to send people so they know. But yeah, and I believe it's only, I think NCI only charges 99 bucks, I think is what it is they charge. Yeah, a month for that. And you're getting access to us like on a private Zoom call. I mean, the calls only got maybe 15 to 30 trainers on it every single week that have the opportunity to ask any questions about scaling and building their business. A lot of times when I know Sal gets on and they get a lot of deep nutrition and supplement type questions. I mean, you name it, they ask it. And we talk a lot about this type of stuff. Like this is the type of stuff that we communicate to these trainers is, it's one thing to have the education and the certifications and understand human physiology and understand program design and macros and so that. But then the real meat of being really good trainers is this type of stuff that we're talking about right now. Understanding how to communicate with clients, how to make them feel and understand that you do care about them and the psychology of it, which I feel like is a lost art in coaching trainers. We put so much emphasis on the science. Yeah, the X's and O's. Yeah, and I think that's why too, I get so passionate about debating and arguing some of the science nerds because they put so much weight in that when it's like, dude, you guys, you're obviously not that great of a trainer because if you've trained enough people, you realize like that is such a small percentage of tools that I use with my clients. Yes, you need to have basics. You need to understand, like I'm not saying that you can be uneducated and be a really good trainer. You gotta know your shit, but once you've got a good base knowledge on nutrition, physiology, how to build a program for a client, man, then the majority of it is communication and behavior modification and then how to... The support and you know what it reminds me of is like the sort of Bible thumper approach. In terms of like, if I'm this trainer, I got all these facts, I know what's best for you, take it. You know, like do it, like it's just like, there's no communication there. It's just like... No, that's actually a really good analogy because that's another thing, like everyone's had, I mean, I grew up in a place like this where every time something went wrong or I didn't do anything right, my parents would cite a verse to me. That was working, you know what I'm saying? Same, dude. Right, it's just like that is not... The best way to convert somebody over to you is through your life, right? Showing them, like showing them the life you live and then how that's played out for you. I think the same thing goes with training. You gotta relate. You just touting the science to them and beating them over the head with the science is not going to... You guys remember when you figured out, if you told clients how challenging it was for you with health and fitness or whatever, that they would... How much more effective you became when it was time to coach them? Oh yeah. It's such a better approach. That was one of the things that, you know, I normally say on the show that like, oh, it took me five or 10 years to figure that out. That was one of the things I think that's actually why I had pretty good success even early when I was very, very little education experiences. I was comfortable with being vulnerable and I was okay with like telling my clients that like I'm just learning or I don't know or I'll go find the answer for you. That served me so much like early on. Like that didn't bother me too. Man, you were so ahead. Yeah. It was a hard time. In that part, I was. In that part. So much ego in our space. So that's a hard one to do. And I think that was kind of a superpower early on. I think, because I definitely was not that educated. I didn't have a lot of experience. I wasn't that, but I mean, there were so many other things that made trainers so much better than what I was. Yet I was one of the most successful trainers in our area, right? And a lot of that had to do with that was, I was okay with that. And I think that's why my clients liked me so much is that I made them feel like I'm just like you. I'm not that different, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, we might have different goals or body types may look different, but I'm trying to figure this thing out too. You know, and I've been working and it's not easy and I've been spending my, I think leading with that is such a powerful tool. Yeah, I remember like my studio, when I used to own my studio was next to a grocery store. So every once in a while, I would go to the grocery store two doors down and I'd run into a client who had just finished a workout or they lived in the area, so they're grocery shopping. And I remember that how immediately self-conscious they were about their shopping cart as soon as I ran it. And I wasn't even thinking about that. Oh, hey John, what's going on? And you'd see them like, they fuck, we're gonna hide, you know, and then they'd apologize. Oh, that's just because- Hide the bagel bites. Yeah, this is for guests that are coming over and they're saying like, listen, man. Okay, that's- That's actually one of my least favorite parts about being a trainer is when you like sit at dinners with people like- So awkward. Like we just had a family dinner on Wednesday with all of our family over, right? There was like, I don't know, 15 plus of us all at my house and it never fails. Like we can't sit around a plate of food and eat without- Some coma. Somebody feeling guilty and needing to like tell me, you know, what they're working on. It's just like, I don't fucking care. You know what I'm saying? Like you're my family, I love you no matter what. You and I both know that you've got all kinds of resources and access to me if you want it. And you need it like right now at family time on Wednesday night is not the time to talk to me about this stuff. Like I just want to- You don't need a shirt, it's like off work. Yeah. Yeah, it's- Something. And it's like, and sometimes it's not even like they're like necessarily like prodding, asking me questions. As much as they're just like telling me what they're gonna do. And it's just like, no, you're not. I was like, I've known you for a long ass time. Like, no, you're not gonna do that. Like, and I don't care if you do or you don't. You know what I'm saying? Just do it, you don't have to tell your body. I love you either way, you know what I'm saying? So that is one of the things actually I don't like is that once you've become that the trainer, you know, in the family or in your circle of friends, like it's so funny to see the guilt. Well, I used to, my family now knows, but what I used to always get was there's certain foods I can't eat because they'll bother my digestion. But people would always think it's because it was some like special diet or something that was on. Oh, oh, oh, you don't eat dairy? Is it because it's inflammatory and it makes you fat? It's like, no, it gives me diarrhea. That's why I don't eat it. Oh, oh, oh, you don't want to get down to it. Oh yeah, bread makes people fat. No, no, bread fucks up my stomach. That's why I don't eat it. Yeah, it's just like shit. It's like, I don't want to eat it. If you had gluten-free bread, I'd fuck it up right now. I'd have to do that. Well, you know what else is getting fucked up right now. So you guys remember this whole thing going on with the orcas and how they're knocking ships over and all that stuff? It's a really bizarre phenomenon that's happening. They're still going. A lot of them. Well, okay. So now there's examples of gray whales doing the same thing. Like, almost they were taught or had... This is spawned now to a different species of whale doing the same exact thing. Attacking boats. Attacking boats. And then also there's been all these examples of this one sea otter just going around and biting surfers and they can't catch it. And they're all trying to find this. It's like biting them and terrorizing all these surfers. And I'm like, dude, the animals are rising up and they're coming after us. Wow! Now, do you think this is legit or do you think it's just because of media? Like pockets of... Yeah, and we're reporting it, making it feel like. Or is it Aquaman who's ordering all of them? There's something going on. We pissed off some animals there in the ocean. I saw a video of somebody was... Well, I showed you guys the one where the person was kayaking and a whale accidentally swallowed them. I saw it, which is terrifying. I saw another one where this person was... It looked like a kayak. I think it was a kayak. And a whale, you know, whales will come out of the water and then... But you don't think about how big of a wave that produces when it's next to you. Terrifying, bro. The video and it's big at like massive mountain of an animal, and then the wave that come, I would be the scariest damn thing. Dude. You can possibly experience it. You can't do anything. No, that's really scary. And I imagine if he actually landed on you, I mean, that would knock you out and you'd probably drown. Oh, 100%. Yeah, that's easily beyond scary. So what you're saying, Justin, is the fact that I don't go in the water beyond my knees is justified now. Yeah, you're probably a smart move. I'm safe. I'm safe. You see Patrick Bed-David interviewed. I sent it over to you, South. Did you actually watch it? I did. Oh, you did? I did. Oh my goodness. Oh, it makes me so happy. I don't know. It's like... Remember I said, listen to your friends? Yeah. I hit you just the right time. You're a friend for two. You just had that conviction. I did it. You're like, well, fuck, I gotta watch this. I don't send it over to you. I should listen to my friend. He always does this and I never watch. I mean, so I actually did, I knew very little about that. I actually did more homework looking him up after the fact. I didn't know who he was. I watch a lot of PBD's content. I like, I think he's a phenomenal interviewer. And he... He did great. Dude, he... He did not get shook. He asked them a question nobody wants to ask. I mean, so... You know the Clinton kill list? All the people connected to the Clinton to that game. Yeah. That's what he asked. It's substantial. And Wiener, Anthony Wiener, I think his name just squirmed and got aggressive, defensive. This is the one that his name, Anthony Wiener, he also like was caught with a dick pic, right? And trust me, PBD found a nice way to slide that in and like freaking throw a jab at him that way too. So... He also, his laptop also had all this potential information that was damning to the Clintons. Wow. And stuff like that. Yeah. Remember that whole like smash the hard drives, Hillary Clinton's... Oh yeah. He was a big part of that. Thousands of emails. And there was speculation that he had, he had information on them. So that's kind of direction. So I was bringing it up because you know, just more of a shout out to, maybe this can be our shout out today because I don't think I've actually shouted PBD out before, but you know, of all, including Joe Rogan, because Joe Rogan is a phenomenal interviewer. Tucker Carlson is a phenomenal interviewer. I would say, I would say Patrick Bette David brings on and takes on more people he disagrees with than anybody else I know. Like he... And he keeps us cool and he stays on task. Yes. I mean, he does a really good job of bringing on very challenging conversations. He does not shy away from somebody who strongly disagrees with his point of view. More than anybody I know. Like Joe's really good about like, bringing like a good range of all these guests, but he tends to bring, for the most part, like people moderate with their beliefs. And he doesn't get into a lot of like hard arguments or debates where PBD will bring some people. He brings on people he's more interested in. Yes, exactly. Like on both sides, right? Like Joe will bring people on that he's curious about it. You know what's interesting is that because the media space is shifting, I'm seeing more and more podcasts have these big yes on podcast house. Russell Brand. Oh, he's another great interviewer. DeSantis on. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And so I feel like these politicians are going in this direction. Now Vivek Ramaswamy has been doing this now for a while. And he goes on podcasts where they go after him and he does a good job of defending them. I feel like the direction to start moving that way because of the power of social grief. Yeah, dude. So that's a good thing. But PBD does an incredible job. He's a great one to challenge people, like he said. He is. He's really some socialists on there before he's interviewed and like people that disagree with him economically. It's pretty. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's like, like I said, he's one of my favorite to go listen, especially if it's somebody who I don't agree with. I want to hear that interview because I know he's going to challenge him. And so that was a, I didn't even know who that guy was and tell them, but boy, when he brought the, the Clinton hit list on 46, 46 names. Connected to them. I mean, that's pretty scary if you're, if you've worked with them and like, you just see like, so his big list of people, like his big argument and debate back, right? The Anthony Wienergaard was like, they're 70, 80 years old. They could connect a bunch of people. I could connect a bunch of dead people to a 70 and 80 year old. So that's the hard, which is a fair argument, right? But these are like not just old people. They're like a lot of like, there's a lot of, and I'm sure that list of the 46, there's some like real tragic random real deaths that are slid in there to like make the list look bigger. But there's quite a few on there that make you go like, wow, it's like younger, healthier person. It doesn't make you at all curious and skeptical. Like that's just where I just, I want to like, I don't know. I can't like relate, I guess. You know, I can't relate at all. I can't just take something at face value of like, oh, what's, yeah, well, you know, that's just how it goes. Like people die. Do you think there's any, do you think there's any percentage, does it left or right, right? Do you think there's any amount of politicians that, I remember when I got into this with Brendan, because he was arguing this with me, I don't believe there's anybody that's in politics that is genuinely good. I've really- Not at high levels, maybe local. Right. But you ain't gonna make it that high unless you're, first of all, there's a self selection bias. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to do that. Make it a maniac narcissist. There's no way you can make it through otherwise. Yeah. And then there's so much, there's so much structure around these establishments that they're not gonna let you, like remember Tulsi Gabbard started rising in the Democrat Party, they took her down. Ron Paul started doing some Republican Party, they took him down. Like their own party. Examples of good, yeah. RFK, right now he's starting to rise in the Democrats Party. They tried to shut him up. They tried to censor him in Congress. Yeah. So I think to get to that level, it's like, you gotta play the game, man. I don't know how else you could make it. I really don't. Yeah, that's unfortunate. One of the most effective ways to lose weight, get lean and keep it off forever is to work with a coach. Well, there's a company called Nutrasense that has some of the best coaches around who work with CGM, Continual Glucose Monitors. In other words, they can monitor glucose in a real time, discover what foods work with your body and which ones work against your body. This is technology meets coaching. It's incredible. So much so that we invested in the company. Check this company out. Go to Nutrasense.io forward slash mine pump, use the code mine pump and get $30 off. Nutrasense is spelled N-U-T-R-I-S-E, again, .io forward slash mine pump. All right, back to the show. Our first caller is Benjamin from Illinois. Benjamin, what's happening? How can we help you? Not much. Thanks for taking the call. Some of the questions that you guys have in front of you, but loved your program. I used an anabolic, sorry, aesthetic. Now I'm on anabolic and sorry, not anabolic, but working up through some of the power lifts, bench press, squat, deadlift. You know, I feel like I have things pretty dialed in. I've gained about 70 pounds of muscle, or sorry, 70 pounds of weight in my deadlift, you know, 60 pounds on my squat, and my bench just doesn't seem to go anywhere. I just kind of looking for a little input about is it form-based or I need to focus on some ancillary exercises to get things moving. It's always been a struggle point for me and I feel like my diets and everything else sleeps fine and just have in recommendations. Yeah. Am I seeing that right? You're 245, two reps? That's my most, I did 250, two reps. It's my max bench that I've done, but I mean, I've gone from like doing 230 to 245 all while adding, you know, 70 pounds to a deadlifter in that same timeframe. And you're 187 pounds, pretty strong, bro. There's a lot of room. With the deadlift and squat, there's a lot more room than there is with the bench press. And yeah, so what we tend to do is, you know, I don't know, when I was a kid- Benches are difficult. Yeah, benches are a little bit different, especially for, you know, a guy your size in body weight. I mean, your deadlifting squat is exceptional. Says there, you're deadlifting 455 for four, you know, and you're a 315 pounds. These are good, these are good numbers. Yeah, they're pretty damn good. Now, let me ask you this, what's your overhead press look like? Cause that exercise sometimes makes a big difference for some people as well. Doing your program, I was getting up to 164 reps. Okay, you're doing pretty damn good. Have you, now, have you done anything with progressive resistance, like bands or chains? Not with, not on the bar. I have some bands I could add to it. I add that in for some of my, you know, off-day exercises, but not with the bar, no. Okay, and then how often are you bench pressing? Yeah, in a bulk advantage, frequency. On average, twice a week. I'm probably doing, yeah, about twice a week. Okay, so here's something you could do at your level. And I say your level, cause you're pretty damn strong, is you can reduce the focus on the other lifts. So you just, you do them, you practice them, but you're not trying to push them. But then the effort you put into your bench press and the exercise that help with the bench press, like overhead press, I would say, maybe incline press, is right, put the effort. You're benching twice a week, once is heavy low. The other one is more of what they would call a dynamic where you're lifting more for speed and explosive power, but the intensity is lower in terms of, you know, how hard you're going. And then I would say every maybe two or three weeks, you could add bands to your heavy day, where you have weight on the bar plus bands, giving kind of this progressive resistance. And then you should start to see the weight move up a little bit. You can even look at, and this is where I kind of like using the product, the slingshot, you know, in terms of like. Oh, that's one way to do it, yeah. Yeah, just, it does the same effect, but in terms of you being able to load a bit more, and so you get acclimated to heavier weight, and it gives you that elastic energy to really help, you know, give you a little bit of a boost. Also too, I mean, leg driving, the actual technique of bench pressing, if you can get your body more rigid and anchored, it's going to contribute a lot more to your force output. So that would be my two things I would really peer into. And then the overhead press and deep dips, you know, if it's really just like digging out of the holes the issue, that would be my go-to. I mean, I see some benefit too of running in a bulk advance too. So, I mean, I think that he gets some value on it. He's a definitely an experienced lifter. So maybe consider doing that as far as the next program is running that. Have you done just, have you done like a full cycle of not bench pressing and focusing just on the incline or using dumbbells? I add in dumbbells. I've never given it up completely and then just in other stuff. I mean, I go back and forth over the years. I mean, this is, you know, 10-year issue with the bench press more or less being stuck. But I've gone off periods of time and come back and it seems like it's always the same plateau. Yeah, so, I mean, especially with that experience, that much experience, sometimes it helps to change the exercise. Something that's similar but different, like an incline or just dumbbells. And then just get as strong as you can in that lift. Then you go back to your traditional bench press and then you'll find within two or three weeks that you passed your previous, you know, PR. The other thing too is your 187 pounds it says here, 35. Are you pretty lean? I've never been tested. I'd probably in the 10% range, I would imagine. I mean, 12% maybe. Yeah, when's the last time you like went on? Please be on a surplus. Yeah, when's the last time you tried to gain like some size? Well, I was recently during that bulking phase. I mentioned those numbers with the deadlift and even 455, I got to 475 on that. I was about 3300 calories. I was in bulking phase for at least four months. Taking a little break, just doing like a micro cut right now. But yeah, I mean, maybe I should up the calories. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you just went on a bulk. That answered my question. But you know, at your level, that much training experience you said you've been working out for 10 years and you kind of get stuck in this position, in this position or this lift. This is where the more advanced stuff starts to make more sense. And I don't mean advanced as in harder. So sometimes I say that to somebody. Like, oh, I got to go. Just more nuance. Yeah, like you think, oh, I got to go to failure. I got to do heavy negatives. I got to do forced reps. No, no, that's not what I mean. I mean, in the sense like pause reps can be really good. Chains and bands can be really good. Heavy supported isometrics can be really good. Even half reps with like a yoga block, you know, so that way too. Like it depends on what your sticking points, I guess is where I would kind of peer into. I also really like what your original advice you both gave. And I didn't get really an answer from Ben if you've done this. Like, have you ever like ran a whole program cycle where like your main focus during that program is like I'm going to get like hell of strong at dips and low to where you're like, you got 90, 100 something pounds between your legs while you're doing a dip. Have you ever tried to get really strong with weighted dips? No, although I did just buy a dip bar for my basement. Bro, there you go. I need to install it. So there's so much value in that. And you'd be surprised to carry over into a bench press, like, you know, make it a goal right now to see how much weight you can get up to with heavy loaded dips. Yeah, I want to say like one of the limiting factors a lot of times I've experienced, and I know a lot of my clients experience was like an instability in the shoulder because I get a certain point you keep loading, loading and trying your best when if you notice that where does it, where is the weak point? Where do you tend to start feeling a lot of the tension and it may be like getting to a point where it's painful or I mean, I could only get to a certain level for my shoulders would talk to me. And so I started really working on shoulder mobility and rotational mobility to get my rotators to respond and to keep my shoulder more stable, which then helped me to generate more force. Yeah, I just feel like shoulders are the sticking point. I started doing some band work with the rotator cuff, some isometrics, maybe it made a little bit of a difference so far, I should probably stick with it. But it does feel like, there's this general sense of, I don't have any like actual posterior instability in the shoulder or anything like that, but it does feel like that is the weak point when I'm trying to push off. Yeah, it's usually the case at this point. At this point, that's when it starts to make a big difference. So to put it differently, generally speaking, when someone kind of gets started and it's the first few years of their lifting, I mean, you're looking at just general strength, general muscle building, all that stuff. As you do this for longer and longer, I mean, you've been doing this for 10 years and you wanna add more weight to the bar, now you're getting into the sport of bench press, right? Or the sport of deadlift. Now it becomes much more about maximizing leverage and technique and stability. It becomes minimizing any power leakage. It becomes much more intricate, I would say, at this point, then it did the first few years that you lifted. If you called me and said I've been working out for two years, I'm like, oh, here's a few things you can do, but someone like you, this is where I would have fun with, like I said, isometrics, bands, speed presses, changing the movement up a little bit to a slightly different exercise or getting stronger in something that may be revealing a weakness, like an overhead press, that did it for me at one point when I got really good at overhead carries when I've had presses, I saw my bench press go up. So this is where it gets a little bit more into the sport and not maybe what has worked for you in the past. I would also recommend that, of all that great advice right there, you take one or two tops of those and really implement it and measure it and track it. Like I was giving you the weighted dips thing, like that's why I would just focus on one thing like that, or if you go to the band speed stuff, like pick one or two of the things that we're giving you as potential advanced tips. Yeah, and really try and perfect it, get good at it, get stronger at it for four to five weeks, and then maybe implement another technique and play around with it. And then see what you notice has the greatest carryover into your bench days and start to implement like that. But don't throw all of it at once because then it's gonna be tough to measure what's really working for you. Got it. Okay. No, definitely try it. And the Slingshot device that you mentioned, that's like a aftermarket device you can buy online. Oh yeah, yeah, Mark Bell's products. Yeah, he has those available. Got it. Yeah, Mark Bell. Yeah, that's a great easy way to apply what I said with the progressive resistance. Yeah, it's super convenient instead of trying to set up the bar with bands. It's way more convenient. Yeah, it'll be nice. And I don't know if you guys have any more time. I did have one other second question written down there, just about a kind of a chronic glute media spasm. Usually it hits me with deadlift. Sometimes a squat obviously doesn't hold me back too much, but I'll feel it afterward. It just keeps, probably I left-sided. I see the glute media is tremendous. It just kind of gives a little pop and then it spasms and really holds me back for a day or two. You know, I've done Prime. I've strengthened that up with some dynamic, you know, 90-90s and active pigeons type stuff, but it just seems like it's been going on for about a year now. And, you know, I don't really know what to target it to get it like, I mean, specifically to go away and we do hip thrusts, add that in there too. Yeah, you're okay. So you got a little bit better by doing some of the things that you mentioned, like active pigeon in 90-90. I think what you need to do is lateral strengthening exercises. So yeah, so I would do like lateral sled drags would be great. That'd be a great way to get that to happen. Got it. And you think like, oh, and what's the squat? The Cossack Squat? Cossack Squat would be good. A good primer for that is the assisted Miguel, right? It's the, I think Squat University's got a good one. I believe we did it on the YouTube channel. Do you know if we did it? We have a Mass Prime Pro. Do we have the assisted Miguel? We don't know if we do or not. Is it assisted or is it just a? It's the regular ones in Prime Pro. You just grab, yeah, you would grab a Squat Rack. Yeah, but I mean, I'll do that because I have some similar issues sometimes and doing that five to 10 times on each side for two sets. Yeah, it's a great exercise. Really primes that well. Yeah, but your strength though, Ben, you know, connecting is important. That's what it'll do for you, but you probably just need to get stronger laterally, even more so. I mean, literally a lateral sled drag would be the best. Literally, when you attach it and you pull it and you walk sideways, crossing your legs over. Strength and a lot of volume and low damage. That's like one of your best go-tos. Yeah, totally. Okay. I'll see if my wife lets me buy a Squat sled for the backyard. Are you gonna go ask her permission? Yeah. Thanks, Ben. We get it. Thank you guys. You got it, man. That was a little low damage. You did a little shout. My bad. Yeah, no, you know, it gets to a point with strength where it becomes a sport, you know? Like you're not gonna necessarily get tons of benefit by adding 10 pounds to your bench press at that point, but it gets a little bit more technical. For me, for my deadlift, getting it better was just deadlifting more. Then at some point I had to get really creative. Yeah, you really have to peer into it more and make it highlighted as a focus. And I think too, we kind of went to the dips route. Like the reason why I liked it so much, it almost reminds me of how I was able to get more strength from a deadlift from like a deficit deadlift. So it's like you get a little further in the range of motion, you get comfortable there. You can produce and generate force in a position where it's like it's, you're not in an advantageous spot for leverage, right? So to be able to grind and generate and focus on that will definitely produce a lot more strength. Well, I also think it's because it also addresses a little bit of the shoulder stability component too. Of course. So you both hit on that as like a potential limiting factor. He highlighted that too. So you add in the deficit point that you're making with a little bit of that strength stability in the dips like that. That's why I went that direction to kind of get, you'd kill two birds with one stone, especially if that's not something he's ever really tried to get strong at. Like I think just trying to get really strong at heavy loaded dips and you'll see a lot of roll work too. You know, season carry. That'll help. Our next caller is Jim from Illinois. Jim, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey guys, how's it going? Good. Great. Very excited to have been listening to you guys since episode seven. Started listening to you for your fitness and exercise advice, but I stayed listening because of your fatherhood and family adventures and it brings a smile to my eyes to my face because everything you guys are going through, I went through like 15 years ago. My one advice to you is enjoy it because it goes fast. I tell everyone that the best things God ever gave us was kids and dogs. That's why I keep having them. Calm down, Sal. All right, Jim. What you got for us? All right, I'll just read my question because I'm long-winded and I don't want to go on a tangent. What is the difference between a giant set and a super set? And are they not similar to doing a circuit set with weights? I know some of your workouts like your cardio program use them. If all you have to work with in a gym is a Smith machine, can you do squats, dead lifts, good mornings, and bench with this machine? I know it's not as good, but does it help at all or am I wasting my time with this exercise machine? Also, training for a tough mutter, just finished anabolic. Now I'm doing MAPS cardio, then going into MAPS OCR. I'm actually started OCR already. Event is August 26th, 58. I weigh 198 pounds. I lost 50 pounds and went from 233 to 180 through eating, cleaning, doing MAPS anabolic, which I love that program. I then followed Adam's advice and I went on a bulk. Now I'm at 198 pounds. My maintenance calories are 3,200. And as I put on muscle, I've dropped three pant sizes. That's awesome. I was going to start a mini cup, but since I'm doing OCR, I decided to scrap that. My last question, which I probably know the answer to is, am I doing too much as I jog every day starting MAPS OCR program and I average between 12,500 to 25,000 steps a day at my work? All right. Now the first question, let's start with the first one, which was five questions. Yeah, giant sets. And it's just, OK, so the term giant set was used by bodybuilders to refer to a superset that it consisted of three, typically three to maybe four exercises. Bodybuilders rarely ever combine more than two exercises. And if they do, yeah, if they do, then they'll go three. So a superset is two exercises back to back. A giant set is typically three back to back. What's the difference between that and a circuit? Circuits are typically more than three and don't involve any rest. Yeah, or minimal. It's the whole workout. Yeah, it's like circuit, circuit, circuit. You rest to get water, circuit, whereas bodybuilders might do two, like three exercises and then they'll rest for like three to five minutes and then perform it again. So that's kind of the difference. All right, smith machine. Bench press you can do with the smith machine. Squats, deadlifts, good mornings, not so great. Especially deadlifts. I would never do with deadlifts. Inverted rows. Yeah. That's about all I got. Yeah, overhead press you could do on it. You could do rows on it. But squats are not the same at all. Deadlifts, you can't even. Okay, so what I would do and replace that is just dumbbell work. Dumbbell work and then go unilateral, right? So it's not like, because we're gonna get a bunch of grief with the smith machine advocates on here, right? So it doesn't mean you can't do those movements. It's just, they are not ideal because the way your spine is shaped and the way that track works, okay? So it's not ideal for movements like good mornings and deadlifts. So if I had a client who was telling me, oh, I've all of you guys this smith machine at this gym but I wanna do squats and deadlifts. I'd say, do they have dumbbells? Yeah, you're right. If you got a smith machine, you got dumbbells. And then I would say instead of doing your, deadlifts on a machine like that, do single-layered dumbbell deadlifts and you're gonna get very strong by doing that. And it's way more challenging, way more beneficial. Squats, I'd say let's do Bulgarian split squats with dumbbells instead of doing that smith machine. So that's basically what I would have them do if there's a smith machine there. I know there's dumbbells there and that's what we'll try to have them do. Yeah, and then for your obstacle course racing question, he's doing the right thing right now, which is OCR. You are. There's two things that people need to consider with it. Everybody considers the first thing, which is do I have the fitness? Do I have the stamina? Nobody considers the second thing, which is there's a lot of skill involved. Strength. Yeah, there's a lot of skill involved with some of the movements, okay? With a lot of the movements, a lot of the obstacles, let me put it this way. If you have two people doing the same obstacle, one of them is very skilled at the obstacle and the other person is not at all, the person without the skill is gonna exert like three times as much energy to try to perform the same thing. So one thing that a lot of people mess up with or don't even focus on with OCR is practicing the obstacles. Like just practicing the obstacles and getting good at the skill of scaling a wall, jumping off, crawling under things, throwing a spear. Squimbing, ropes. Like that makes a huge difference. In fact, they have studies on athletes, like really high level athletes and they show that like a cyclist at a very high level burns less calories cycling than somebody who's at a lower level because they've gotten so good at the technique of it. Their bodies just become like this machine with it. So I'm gonna ask you, Jim, what do you think your limiting factor is that your fitness, do you feel like you're not fit enough to complete the task? Are you familiar with the obstacles? Like what are we working with? Well, I ran in it last year and my grip strength needs work because they have a, I call it the American, if you ever watched that Ninja show, they have a TV. They have an event like that where you gotta do a ladder, then you swing to these circle things and then you gotta do a trapeze. Otherwise you fall in the water. And my grip gave out before it, my arm strength did. Some dead hangs. I mean, I think we have, there's a lot of that in the program. Yeah, there's so much good. I've been doing the rice bucket. Okay, perfect. Rice bucket, those dead hangs. Yeah, you're gonna do a lot of good strengthening with that and also to just like different types of, if it's ropes, if you can attach that for like inverted rows or anything, you just have those types of grips that you're gonna experience with the challenges would help. I'm really proud of that program. We don't talk about it a lot. It's kind of like the redheaded step child for us. Like nobody mentions it that often. I'm gonna revisit it for sure. But we, I mean, when we wrote that with Amelia Boone, like we really, like part of that process, like where do most people struggle and what you struggle with was one of the common ones. So what we programmed in there is to address that. So that program's pretty robust to get the average person to be able to complete one of those and do pretty well at it. So I follow that. Here's the thing too, Jim. And I know that the end of August is the competition. So I wouldn't do it for this one, but if you end up doing another one, there's something else to consider. What's, let me ask you this, how much do you weigh and how tall are you? 198 and 510. Okay. So not for this one cause it's too soon. It's coming up here, it's around the corner. So don't do what I'm about to say for this one. 10, 15 pounds. Yeah. So when you talk about grip strength, you know, if you, if you lost 15 pounds, okay, you would have way better grip strength on those events than if you, if you got stronger in your grip and stayed the same body weight. Like a lot of people don't realize that. Like you can have a lot of strength in your grip, but if it's in comparison to your weight, that's where things tend to get thrown off. In fact, you can get weaker in your grip and lose 15 pounds and you might perform better as well. So not for this one. I don't want you to lose weights too soon. So don't try to cut right now, that'll screw you up. But for, if you do another event and you, and you find that the grip part is really screwing you up. Trying to come in leaner. Yeah. You come in lighter, makes a huge difference. Now, can you build, can you build strength or muscle and endurance at the same time? Cause I kind of look at it like a scale. If you build endurance, you lose muscle or if you build muscle, you might lose endurance. So can you, can you build both at the same time? I want the holy grail guys. Yeah. It depends. It depends who I'm talking to. Generally speaking, strength improves endurance. I say general because as you get, as you start to get more advanced, that's not necessarily the case. But if you're asking about performance, that's different. Okay. Performance is different. Now you could take somebody and you could have them simply become better at a skill. You could have them lose some strength. But because the event requires them to maneuver their body, their strength to weight ratio actually gets better. Like in other words, if you lost 30 pounds, but you got 10 pounds weaker in all your lifts, you're still stronger as a ratio of your body weight. And if it was a body weight type of competition, you feel stronger, right? So performance is very different. And that's a much more specific question. And then the answer becomes a little bit more accurate. But generally speaking, can you improve both? You can, they just happen slower rather than focusing on one or the other. Yeah, smaller margin and longer period of time, I would say. And I guess it's kind of similar to trying to lean out and build at the same time, like at the unicorn sort of program. And it's not impossible, but it is definitely difficult. It's difficult to take those both on at once versus kind of really focusing on one and then transitioning to the other. Totally. Well, when this event's over and I get through OCR, what program would you guys recommend for me next? Have you done? Symmetry. Ooh, symmetry is great. You have symmetry? No, I do not. Oh, that's the best one. Symmetry with like a class, everything. Yeah, symmetry with a cut would be awesome. So lean out, do symmetry, and then prepare for the next OCR event you want to do. I got one last question for you too. Sometimes I find it kind of hard to hit my protein intake. I was in the store and I seen they now have protein water. Is that any good? Cause it's like photographs of protein in a bottle of water. Yeah, it's collagen in there. I think there's collagen protein. Yeah, that'll help you hit your targets. I mean, you know, we'd better if you got it from food, but if it's hard, that'll help. Something that'll wise, yeah, that'll help. Do you remember? I'll hit like 150 or so of protein, but I know I should be a little bit higher than that. Yeah, I mean, you could do that. You'd be better off getting a high-quality protein powder and just adding it at the end of the day. I would say. Well, I thank you guys. You got it, man. Yeah, good luck. Yeah, good luck, man. It was a pleasure talking with Alagan. You too, Jim. I like him. He's an OG, man, since episode seven. You know, I remember. Is that what he said, seven? Seven. Episode seven. Oh, I missed that. That's why he actually had seven questions. I don't know if you guys counted. For keep telling him off. For the number of episodes that he started with. Let him go. You know, I remember specifically when this happened. I was younger. I was trying to do one of my first like actual cuts and I was dropping weight on the scale, lowering my calories. And I'm like, oh my God, I could do more pull-ups. Yeah. I'm getting stronger and I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I'm lighter. Like that's when that whole paradigm shift. I'm like, oh, that's because I'm lighter. I'm able to do more. People don't consider that when they do something. It's actually wild. What a huge difference it makes. Yeah, there's times where I don't even do any pull-ups whatever, and I just leaned out 15, 20 bucks and then I hop up and all of a sudden I can do way more pull-ups. And when I was training, I'm like, you know, two, six months later, right? Totally. The next caller is Osvaldo from Florida. Osvaldo, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey, what's going on, guys? What's up, man? So basically I'm 62, I'm 272 pounds, and I'm 35.7% body fat. I'm trying to obviously get that down, right? And then so I had somebody kind of give me a little calories and macros at 2,462 calories, 258 grams of carbs, 209 grams of protein, and 66 grams of fat. But I find that very hard to stick with, and I always end up eating more food. Sometimes I wake up in like the middle then I got two in the morning and I'll go to the kitchen. I like weigh it out and everything, and I like eat it and I go back to bed. So I guess that my question is based on my size, and I'm 42 years old, is that the right track? So I just, I don't know, what do you guys think? Where'd you get this cal? Who gave you this number? Where'd you come up with this specific number of 24, 62? He was somebody I met that is like a, he's like a trainer. I met him outside of the training world, and he basically, I sent him pictures and he kind of, that's what he came up with. Yeah, he guessed. Okay, so that's used as eight balls. Yeah, dude, there's such a huge, such a wide variance when it comes to caloric maintenance and what would be a cut, and now there's a lot of things here to dissect. It's probably too little for you, it's just why you're waking up in the middle of the night so hungry. It's definitely low fat for him. Yeah, the fat is low, 66 grams is kind of low. The other part, the other thing that you didn't say here, but I'm reading your question, if you don't mind me saying on the podcast, was that you, you're clean and sober for seven years, and food kind of became your drug as well. So that kind of clouds this up a little bit, okay? Because the cravings could be because you're eating too little, which I think you might be, or it could be that you need that, that fix that food can provide us when we don't have something that we're, you know, the things that we're used to using. I'll say this, if you wanna find out what calories you should be eating, you wanna track what you're eating when you're eating normally and be very meticulous. And then you can cut from there because then you've figured out kind of what your maintenance is. And I would assume at your size, your maintenance is probably, I would say 2,400 calories is probably too low for you, but I don't know because I don't know what your maintenance is at. And that's what I would do if I was your trainer. Now the second thing I'll say is this, if you find that tracking and counting actually makes it harder for you just because it's like you're putting too much focus on everything, I would take a step back and be a little bit different with my guidelines. I would say something like, I'm not gonna eat heavily processed foods. I'm gonna eat as much as I want, but nothing that's processed. And I'm gonna hit, you know, let's see, you're 270 pounds. What's your target body weight? How much body, what do you wanna weigh? See, I don't know. That's the thing. Like I don't know if I would look good at 225 with a bunch of muscle, or maybe like at 185 Super Lean. I don't know. I just wanna like what I see in the mirror. You're six foot tall. I would say a good place to be would probably, not forget yet about 200 pounds is a general, you know, area to look. So I would say no heavily processed foods, eat 200 grams of protein a day from Whole Foods. And let me just start and drink a gallon of water a day. That's it. Don't count anything else. You'll probably get leaner just doing that. In fact, I'll bet money that you'll get leaner if you do that consistently, just doing that. I think for sure the problem here is you're trying to restrict too hard and then you get that craving because you are hungry, you're low fat, you're low calorie and then you tend to over swing. Versus telling you what Sal's saying, which is eat when you're hungry. Throughout the day, as you're going through the day, eat consistently throughout the day. Just make good choices. Count the protein as your main thing that you're counting and avoid processed foods. But don't try necessarily to restrict really hard. And while you're also strength training, if you're doing that, my guess is you're going to lean out and or build muscle. And if you do it through Whole Foods and you feed yourself correctly when you're hungry and you don't binge because you've restricted really hard, even if you do over consume calories a little bit here and there, because you're strength training, that'll get prioritized over to building muscle. So what's killing us is the binge. And the binge is probably happening from the hard restriction. So if we just get out the hard cut and the hard restriction of such low calorie, low fat that you're in right now and feed you what your body probably wants and needs, you're not going to have those tendencies to want to really overeat and consume. And again, like I said, even if you do over consume a little bit, it'll get prioritized over to building muscle if we're strength training. Look, my dude, look, if you did this, okay, if you ate steak, chicken, eggs, rice, potatoes, fruit, vegetables, like whole foods, okay, whole foods. And you didn't eat out because that can also mess you up. So you don't eat out whole foods, you ate 200 grams of protein a day. So you're like, I got to eat 200 grams of protein a day and then you just ate until you feel satisfied. That's all you did and you drink water. That's it. That's all you did. I bet you'd lose 30 pounds alone just from doing that. 30 pounds would come off your body of body fat just from doing that alone. And of course you're doing that alone. And of course you're doing a strength training. You wouldn't have to count or do much else besides just follow those few guidelines right there. And you won't feel hungry because you're like, oh, I'm hungry, what do I need? Okay, well, I can have more steak and rice or I can have more chicken and fruit, you know? Stick through those foods and the 30 pounds will come off and it won't feel like it's feeling now like you're kind of having this battle. I have chicken thighs too, chicken breasts suck. Are you following mini maps programs? Well, I bought aesthetics and I bought performance but I haven't trained them yet because I'm with a trainer right now. But as soon as that finishes, I was gonna start. I'd actually put you on anabolic. We'll send you over maps anabolic. I'd actually like you to start there. How often are you with the trainer? Three times a week right now. Oh, you're good, bro. Does he listen to Mind Pump? I was gonna say he can run the program. That should be okay, everybody listening right now, okay? The show's fucking big enough by now, okay? If you're hiring a trainer that should be part of the qualifications. Do you listen to the show? If you don't listen to the show, then find a trainer it does. It'll solve so many problems. He could have answered this question better for us because he's heard of the show, so. That or use Ask Mind Pump.com, so there you go. But I'm telling you, man, if you just did what I said with those guidelines and you wait until you were full, okay? So you don't have to worry about trying to eat less or anything like that. I gotta eat 200 grams of protein. I'm gonna eat whole natural foods. I'm not gonna eat out. I'm not gonna eat processed foods. I'm gonna drink a gallon of water a day. That's it, every day. You'll lose a lot of body fat from doing that and you'll feel like you're not dieting. Yeah, a lot less pressure that way for sure. Right, well, for me personally, I like to track because I feel safe that way, but I tracked like at 2,945 and for there I feel good. I don't feel hungry. I feel like I don't wake up in the middle of the night to eat, but then I was like, I don't know if that's too much. I'm not gonna lose weight. No, that's good. You're good. And here's the thing, if you really like tracking, okay, I'm not gonna fight you on that either. Like, okay, do it. But then I don't care if it's 2,901 day, 3,200 another day, 27 another day. I don't care. So tracking, if it makes you feel better, but as your coach and your trainer, I'm telling you to eat how Sal's eating if it falls on 3,200 calories some days, it falls on 2,600 calories other days. I don't care. That's fine. That's all good. In fact, that's more natural, more sustainable, more realistic to what your life is going to look like in the future when you get to the exact weight body type that you want, you're gonna have days where you have more surpluses and days where you have lower. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It should have a natural ebb and flow like that. What we're trying to solve is the binging. And the thing that's probably binging is the desire to cut weight and lose faster. So you're cutting calories harder than you should. And then your body wakes you up in the middle of the night and says, fuck you, feed me. You're working on your palate this way. And then you go and then you over consume. So feed yourself throughout the day as you're hungry. Take the tips that Sal's saying. Don't worry if it hits. I don't even care if you have some days if you're eating through Whole Foods, it's hitting 35, 3600 calories. The big, as big of a guy as you are who's strength training and moving, okay? Who has a day where he hits 3600 calories. If you lifted weights pretty hard that day or the day before, don't worry. That shit's gonna go to build muscle. You're gonna be okay. Here's what people get confused is, okay. The leaner you get, the more detailed you're gonna have to be. Right now, for the next 30 to 40 pounds of body fat, you don't need to be very detailed except for what I said, okay? You don't need to. It's like you're looking at a mountain. You wanna carve it into like a detailed statue and you take a tiny chisel and a little hammer right out the gates. And it's like, no, no. What are you doing? Throw some dynamite at that first. So don't worry about all the tracking and all that, whatever. You're gonna get, you'll lose 30, 40 pounds just from doing it. You're gonna get a six pack? Probably not. Once you get down to a certain point and everything's working great. Then we dial in. Then you can start to dial in, but like literally you're gonna waste your time if you do it. In fact, if you get too dialed right now, if you get too meticulous now, you're gonna keep rebounding. You're never gonna be able to get out of this place. And you get frustrated because you're putting the work in. 100%. You're putting so much work into tracking and trying to stay right dialed to whatever a number is that a trainer gave you or you gave yourself. Instead, give yourself some freedom and flexibility. Totally. Avoid eating like an asshole. Eat when you're hungry. Target the protein and train hard. You're gonna be okay. Okay. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. We got you. You got it, man. Thanks for calling in, brother. Yeah, man, take care. You got it. I wish people just really got that. The human body, there's a huge misconception out there that we evolved to be these mindless eating machines. That's not true. The reason why that happens to us is because we're eating food that has been especially designed to make you overeat. Like, good luck. Good luck trying to get to a relatively healthy body weight, eating foods that scientists spent a lot of time designing to make you overeat. Now, if you stick to whole natural foods, here's what'll happen. Your body will naturally bring you down to a relatively healthy body weight. Now, it's not gonna be 10% body fat, but it's gonna be a lot leaner than what most people walk around at. And it's not gonna feel like this crazy uphill battle and struggle. Then when you get down to, for most guys, probably 17, 16% body fat, you feel good, you're like, I wanna get 10%. All right, now we can start counting calories and getting more detail. But most people, you don't need to go that far at all. I mean, I feel it's very obvious to me. This guy's training five to six times a week. He's seen a trainer two, three times a week. He's probably pushing pretty hard in the gym. He's a big dude. He's 270 pounds over six foot tall. And he's only given himself 2,400 calories. So his body is screaming at him, I want to build muscle. I'm trying to build muscle. And he's restricting, restricting because he cares so much about dropping the weight on scale. And then of course, he probably has a good week or two in a row, and then he breaks. And then he fucking goes way off the rails and goes over. And then that's what gets stuck in this plateau. It's like, man, at this level to your point, it's like, there's no reason to get that anal about how many calories or grams of protein. It's like, hit your protein and take, eat whole foods when you're hungry, train hard, watch what will happen. Our next caller is Jen from Belgium. Hi, Jen. How can we help you? Hi guys, hi. Thanks for having me. It's past my bedtime here in Belgium, but it's good to be there with you guys anyway. Awesome, thank you. So I've been listening to you now for a while. I'm a personal trainer and I've pretty much changed my whole program for myself and for my clients because of listening to you guys. So thank you very much for all the advice. It's super helpful. And I've seen amazing results and so have my clients. So thanks so much. Ah, it's perfect. All right, so I'm gonna read my original question and then I'm going to read the follow-up to it because some information has changed. So, and then you guys can ask me whatever. It says, I'm a bikini competitor that has had to drop out of an upcoming competition in October due to not being able to train and pose properly because of a piriformis muscle injury that has caused pain in my hamstring calf. I've gone to physio and had electrotherapy, deep tissue massage and acupuncture with my therapist and it's given me some relief. But that in addition to significantly lowering my weights and increasing reps on training has helped but I'm still in a constant pain. At the time I wrote this, it was not short pain but it was extremely tight pain in my leg making most movements lower body wise, super painful. Before dropping out of the competition I had been training with heavy weights and about 10 to 12 reps per set five days a week since last November except for a peak week this past March for a competition. And my plan for after the competition in October that I'm now not doing was to reverse diet slowly and run anabolic to change things up. So I purchased anabolic already in anticipation of this but however now that I am not doing that competition I thought to start anabolic now and even contacted your team about running it with this injury, I was advised to run Prime Pro with it which is great advice and I'm happy to do it. But my question is if I run anabolic with lower weight and higher reps at this point in my training with now coming off of the injury is that ideal? And also if you have any advice for strengthening the piriformis anyway that would be helpful. And so the follow up is that since I submitted the question I was diagnosed with two lower herniated discs and that was where the pain in my leg originated from. So for about two weeks I was doing nothing at all no upper and a lower and a nothing and since then I've been doing light band work and then yesterday was my first day back at the gym and I restarted anabolic but I could only squat mostly not necessarily because of pain, I'm not in pain anymore but mostly because I'm kind of terrified of triggering it again. I squatted 30 kilos and only benched 30 and then for deadlifts, sorry this was done on Monday and then for deadlifts today I did RDLs with dumbbells and I think that was maybe 32 kilo total. So basically I don't know if anabolic is the right program at this point, I don't know kind of where to go with this because I want to lift heavy again, I want to compete again but I'm pretty terrified of going too fast and too heavy too fast. So I wanted to know if you guys have any suggestions of where to go. I don't think it's the wrong program but I do think we have better programs for where you're currently at. Symmetry is where I'd have you and then after that I would actually put you in something like performance. What happens a lot of times with my competitors or strength athletes, we train so much in the sagittal plane and we neglect sometimes core training so core and multi-planar movements I think would be extremely beneficial to you which is addressed in maps performance and then also mobility I think is going to help you. So to me, if I had to recommend a program order it would be symmetry and performance. I'd like to hear if the guys agree or disagree. You know, I'm glad you gave me the update, Jen because initially you were talking about it being a piriformis injury but it didn't sound like piriformis at all because it went down your leg. In fact, I was going to ask you if you had any low back injuries because it sounded nerve related. Where are the discs that are herniated? It's between L4 and L5 and then apparently a much older one, L5 S1. Oh yeah, okay. Do we know how much? Yeah, so I mean, yeah, so you had the disc was pushing on the nerve and that was causing that kind of pain. Do you have any weakness on one side or is that all better now? Yeah, actually a couple of years ago actually I fell down the steps and since then it's been that my whole left side has been a mess of trying to, I mean not now but I could literally look in the mirror and see where my shoulder was really high. My hip is kind of off so I've been doing therapy for it all but I don't know if that contributed to possibly the injury being on that side with this whole situation but right now I have no pain and with the two workouts that I've done that were both anabolic, I really went slow and I focused and I made sure my hips were in line and that sort of thing and I didn't have any issues doing the workouts but like I said it was super low weight. And that's the injury that you think that caused it to fall? I think since then, I mean I'm a little older since it happened so maybe that's it but I think it's everything kind of started then I just located the bones in my foot during the fall after that. That's what it was. Okay so I'm gonna give you some good news, Jen. If I were to take, I don't know, 100 people and scan them you would see a lot of herniated discs with no symptoms and you'd see a lot of discs that look fine with symptoms. So the good news here is that this is not a death sentence at all. It probably did change some of your recruitment patterns. You look very fit, you compete so you're probably really strong or you can be pretty strong for your size. This is where adding load on the bar doesn't make any more sense. Really what you wanna do is you wanna be able to add load without adding load. What I mean by that is slow the reps down. Make the pot, maybe do a pause rep, increase the intensity, right? So let's say for example, you're squatting with 100 pounds on your back and you're like I could add 30 pounds to the bar and do 10 reps. Well what I would rather have you do is do 100 pounds but make the 10 reps feel like you have 130 pounds on the bar by changing the tempo and making the exercise feel more challenging. You're gonna get more benefit out of that at your level than you will by just trying to get stronger. Now if you're a beginner I'd say just get stronger but this is where you're gonna get your benefit now is from making the exercises feel heavier and harder versus can I do more reps and can I add more weight? Yeah and address these imbalances really. I mean take the time to go through and build new patterns and I think that because of that cute kind of injury it did kind of shift in terms of priorities of how the body's trying to stabilize and organize itself. And so to Adam's original advice I do see like value in symmetry and especially the first phase is really like isometrically driven in putting you in these positions and split stance positions and different positions for you to really hone into being able to be stabilized and be able to produce force in those. And then unilaterally now we're addressing a lot of those imbalances and trying to correct them with strength. So I think in that sort of timeline and going through symmetry then eventually we're gonna get to more different types of planes of movement too. I do think are very valuable moving laterally and rotating that if that hasn't been part of your programming at all is gonna have massive value in terms of like keeping you pain-free and strong. Yeah, go map symmetry. Start the exercises with your left side. That's your weaker side, right? Okay, let the left side dictate how many reps and what the weight is for the right side. And from now moving forward just because of your fitness level because of your experience I wouldn't worry anymore about necessarily getting stronger. The approach I would have is can I make this feel heavier with my technique and my form? Can I do it that way? Because the risk versus reward ratio when you just get started is amazing to get stronger. As you get stronger though, it starts to shift. Like it stops making sense to keep trying to add weight to the bar at some point. I mean, you can do it but the risk to reward ratio is so crappy that it's like why do it unless you're gonna compete in powerlifting and that's your life passion. I would say your approach with all strength training from this point and this is just because again because you're so fit already and you've got great experience. I would, every time I work out it's like can I make this feel heavier? Can I make this feel harder? Can I feel it more in the target muscle? Can I be more perfect and controlled with my repetitions? That's gonna lead you so well regardless of what program you follow. But I do like map symmetry though because it's so focused on balancing out right to left. I think you'll get a lot of value out of that. I think if you were a client, a mind or a friend I would actually try and discourage you from competing anytime soon in the next year or two and really encourage you to, with the same type of discipline and attitude that you have towards being a bikini competitor because obviously we can see that you've been successful at doing that. I would actually like get into these movements that we have in performance after you get through symmetry. So symmetry is really trying to- Really phase two. Yeah, right. So symmetry first is the foundation we need to do that right now for you to try and balance out what we possibly can address some issues. Performance now starts moving into these kind of unique movements that as a bikini competitor you're probably gonna be unfamiliar with. And then I would as if I was your coach as we're going through it I would try and take that bikini competitor obsession to those movements. Let's get perfect at this movement. Let's get really good at this exercise and get that hyper focus that you know I know that you have and put it into things like that that I know that are gonna bulletproof your body and benefit you long-term. That would be my selfish recommendation if you were a friend or a client as I would move you away from competing right now. And it doesn't mean forever we could potentially revisit that but where you're at right now in your body the level you're at that's like Sal's pointing out I don't think you need to get any more shredded or focus on those things like we need to bulletproof this body and take care of that for longevity so you're able to lift weights all the way till you're 90 years old. And you'll actually get great you'll get better results that way with development and shape and aesthetics anyway and just to be clear this doesn't mean avoid low reps people think when I say this oh I can't go low reps anymore no, no, no you can do sets of five it's just you're picking a weight that you can do 10 with and then you're making five feel heavy with your technique it's all about the intent with the lift cause you know this you've been working out like I said you're fit I bet you could take a weight that you could do 15 reps with and make it feel hard at 10 reps just by the way you do it and how you focus on it. That's it, so that's the mentality because you keep trying to get stronger at this point and you could do it I just don't think you're gonna get the reward that you would get out of it out of what I'm saying out of what I'm saying I think we'll get more reward out of it. Right, does that also count do you think if right now I'm in a kind of a mini cut because I was previously bulking and so then once I stopped with the goal of the competition I was like well some of this has to go so I'm kind of in a mini cut now with the thought that maybe in a month I would do the reverse diet out and once I got to maintenance then go over a couple hundred calories and kind of push it so when I start to bulk do I still stick to this plan, I'm assuming? Always, this is the mentality you should follow working out from now on. Yeah, bulk or cut doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. By the way, you look super lean when you cut, what's your body fat at? Cause you said you're gonna cut what are you at right now? I have no idea at this point because that's like survival mode kind of after everything's happened I'm just like, I just wanna fit in my pants. I mean I would probably throw you in a maintenance phase already now. I would put your maintenance or bulk just from what I'm looking at right now you don't look like I need to cut you or lean you out at all. So I would again, being selfish and telling you what I want, I would say let's get right to a good calorie place and just maintenance calories. Totally. I bet you're in the high teens at the most body fat percentage and I would have you, I would want you to hover around 20% body fat. That's where you're gonna get the best results across the board. Yeah, before I started cutting I think I was at the highest was like 2,300 calories and barely put on any weight with it. So I mean, I probably could have gone longer at that if not higher. Yeah, let's feed you. Yeah, stop the cut. Let's go in a little more of a bulk maintenance type of deal. Okay, cool. All right, thanks for calling in. All right, Jen. We'll send you a map symmetry. We're gonna send you those programs by the way. And follow back up with us. We'd love to hear how you're feeling after you've gone through symmetry. So circle back to us. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much guys. You guys are amazing. You got it. Thank you. Thanks. You know, it's like at some point adding weight to the bar, make it feel heavier. You're gonna get way better results across the board. And she's obviously fit. She's been doing this for a little while. Like... Such a longevity hack too. I mean, it's a hack for anybody. It is. But I mean, you know, at a certain point like if you're just not moving the needle forward or if you have like something that you're recovering from especially, there's a lot you can do to increase, you know, what kind of stress you're placed on your body without actually like having the risk go up. That's right. Yeah, when you're focused on aesthetic so much, it's really easy to neglect some of these other movements that are just so important to you. That also, yeah. Yeah, they're so important to you at all ages and stages of life, but even more so as we get older and... Or the more advanced you get. And the more advanced we are because it does it. It's a higher risk with your ability to push and move more weight. And so, and I can just tell she's already incredible shape already. And if we're already starting to see these issues and she's had this been diagnosed with stuff, like to me, I'm like, let's not even think about that stuff now. Let's get really good. And I bet she hasn't done things like a, you know, multi-planar lunge or a windmill or a Turkish kid up or like, these are a lot of great exercises that, you know, that would really benefit her to get good at. Just bolsters the body. Yeah. And this house, you know, adding to my point with that is, and she'll probably end up looking really great too. That's it. You know what I'm saying? Like, cause she's got a solid foundation. So doing a novel stimulus like that, while she's fed, she's gonna actually see probably great aesthetic results. I'm glad too, she gave us the update cause she said performance and she was explaining the symptoms. I'm like, it sounds like performance. It sounds like something from your back. Look, if you like Mind Pump, head over to mindpumpfree.com and download all of our free fitness guides. You can also find all of us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump. Justin, I'm at Mind Pump to Stefano. And Adam is at Mind Pump, Adam.