 And joining us today on this, well, it's a season to be jolly, maybe in some parts of the world, but it's a season for politics as far as Indian sport is concerned. And so that's exactly what we're talking about. And joining us to do that are three veteran sports journalists who have been covering, I think everything that has to do with the national sports code with politics in within the federation and how the national sports federation which are the bodies that run various sports are managed are continue to operate and how they elect the bodies that decide policy as well as programs that are implemented by these federation. We will be focusing specifically on, of course, the board of control for cricket in India, the BCCI, which will be holding its AGM in just a couple of days on Christmas Eve, as well as the all India football federation, which held its AGM yesterday on December 21st. That's a day before we're recording this episode. And so joining us to discuss all these things, plus bringing in the perspective on Olympic sports and the IOA, we have let the Xavier, who's new state sports editor, of course, let's be welcome to show. Sharda, who wrote a fairly hard hitting and to the point piece on the stand times yesterday detailing what's happening in the BCCI, the power struggles there or the fight to sort of continue in power there and what the implications are thereof, including various commercial aspects that come into the story. And Jairi Basu, who has all the juice from the all India football federation AGM, what happened during the meeting, outside the meeting, and what is likely to happen in the next few days. Thanks. Thank you, everyone, for taking out the time and for joining remotely Sharda's in Bangalore, Leslie and Jairi for joining us from Delhi. I'll come to you, Jairi, first, because of course, that's the AGM that has already happened. And so, so we're reporting on actually the facts that went on there. So firstly, give us an outline of the piece that you have put up on Newflick that talks about the goings on in this very, very long meeting that transpired yesterday between the management of the federation as well as its permanent members, which are the state association. So see, Siddhant, yesterday's meeting was was long animated. And there was there was some some anxious people thought there could be some anxious moment. But if you ask me, it turned out to be a damn sweep. Because before the before the meeting was held on November 21, when when all India football federation wrote to the members that they are holding a meeting on December 21. And they have gone to the AFF had gone to the court, seeking directives from the Supreme Court, since the election cannot be held as their as their new constitution is still struck in Supreme Court. And it has not been approved by the Supreme Court. At that point of time, you know, which we also wrote and discussed before that, at least 20 to 23, state association wrote to the AFF saying, some way or the other, everybody's language was different. But they are the point they wanted to make that the they wanted the election to be held in time. It shouldn't be shouldn't be delayed by any chance, because the AFF had gone to the court seeking extension for the for the current committee, which is headed by Mr. Praful Patel, who has already completed his three terms yesterday and 12 years. And as per the 2011 sports code and AFF constitution, he is not eligible to continue anymore. But what happened in yesterday's meeting, the members who wrote the latest didn't say much. Mr. Patel, the meeting went for more than three, three hours. Some of the members were saying that they were so hungry, they thought they will go out of the meeting, because it started at five, and it went beyond eight o'clock. So 5530 started with went beyond eight o'clock. Mr. Patel spoke there for near more than 100 minutes. According to the one of the members, he told me that he recorded it for some one hour, 20 minutes or so, then he stopped it, because he thought it is going on and on. Mr. Patel apprised the members. He first thing Mr. Patel said that he had completed his term. He is no more eligible to fight another election. And he is he he admitted that his term in the AFF is over. But he said that he wanted the committee to run this committee to continue, because Supreme Court is yet to come out with a directive. Then he said, if the members wanted, he can relinquish his office and the con and the and the committee should continue. He also said that then he then he read out read out the legal legal opinion which has been given by his by AFS legal team. He also said that that he is bit concerned, because if the AFF becomes without a leader, then it will be it will not be good for the game in the country and the for the AFF itself. That's what he he said. So finally, what happened? Each member most of the members were asked for their opinion. So some of the members said that that in that case, we should continue till the till the Supreme Court order comes on the on this thing. And one of them was of course, the goa goa president, I believe was was very forceful. He also said that you should continue. I must remind you the goa president is Mr. Churchill Alemo, who is an NCP MLA from Goa. Whatever. And then finally, Mr. Subrata Dutta, who is the senior vice president of the AFF. Yeah, so just for those who might not know, purple potato is also connected to the NCP. And therefore, therefore, whatever. But this this the said there is no politics in it isn't it is all football. So what happened after that? Mr. Subrata Dutta, the senior vice president, he moved at the solution saying that that Mr. the current committee headed by Mr. Patel should continue till its directive from the Supreme Court comes. And it was it was also given an impression that it is going to be a kind of caretaker government. Because it was Mr. Patel said no major decision financial or policy decision will be taken during this period. And he told the members the moment any directive come from the comes, he will not even wait for a minute. He will leave his post immediately. That's what he is very very fine and very fair. But at this point, if I can just jump jump in and ask you the the this question has been a matter of litigation now, since 2017. Yeah, yeah. And and so therefore the claim that the AFF president has made during the AGM that was held on December 21, is that no major financial or policy decisions have been made since that time. And that that practice will continue till the Supreme Court finally gives it order or decision, whatever the is that correct? I think it is far from correct. I can I can cite many decisions from 2017, which has been taken, which has been taken. And they were if you don't call it a major policy decision, I don't know what does it mean by major policy decisions. Like I give you a few examples. In 2009, I was reduced to the second division and another league which was made the number one league of the country. I think it's a is the is the biggest policy decision in Indian soccer history for many many years. Is it not a policy decision? Even yesterday in the AGM, there were they were talk about and it was approved that that around 40 crores, I think most of it coming from FIFA and FC for as grants will be spent for that national. What do you call it national center for excellence excellence within which was approved by the AGM? Is it not a policy decision? That the AFF is bidding for the bidding for the AFC Cup in 2027? Is it is it not a policy decision that the AFF has twice changed the dates of the dates of the under 17 World Cup for women? Is it not a policy decision? See, the Federation cannot be run without taking these decisions. Yeah, so you cannot blame them for it. But to pose that we have we are like a caretaker government is I think is absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. Okay, that's an I was fair enough. So I would also like to we will come to your specific sports. Leslie, you you're looking at your game going to give us some information and updates on what's happening with boxing. Sharda, we'll we'll talk to you in detail about the BCCI. But in the meantime, I'd like to invite you both also to jump in and ask Jerry any questions if you have any as in when those come up. But I have plenty for one for one Jerry. It's clear I think to anyone who's watching an outsider or a layperson or a football fan that's a simple decision. But you didn't need to go beyond the first one, which is where you said that there was there was a clear decision on the part of the Federation to sort of demote the I League to the second division and promote the Indian Super League, which is a much newer tournament, which as we all know is in its seventh season. And give that the AFC Champions League spot and the number one sort of the top of the top tier as it were of Indian football and the ACL spot and the ACL spot. Yeah, absolutely. The the AFC Champions League spot and thereby essentially granting the rights to a private tournament, which is which is sort of owned and operated and managed by private entities. Those being of course, the commercial partners also of the All India Football Federation. The sort of lead role the Premier League spot as far as India is concerned. I don't think there can be any debate about whether this is a major policy decision or not because it clearly is so so why make that argument at all in a in a meeting that's been recorded that's been reported on widely for posterity for for whatever reasons I mean even members of I'm sure members who were present in that meeting were like you said, were making recordings and making notes of it for their own purposes. So why make such a statement and why make all these claims? What what from your conversations with people who are in in in the system? What are the possible motivations for this? Apart from sort of trying to post like hold on to the Gandhi for as long as possible? That is one reason what what you said is the is the prime reason. And another reason could be that holding on to the Gandhi, which you said that is good. That is the prime reason of course, another reason could be that so far in the last 20 years in my in my memory in the last last 20 years, except for the 2000 elections in the last 20 years when player and in the last one she and some it tougher for the presidency that was that is 20 years ago in Delhi. In the last 20 years, I have never seen at least in my experience of following Indian football closely, I have never heard the the state associations raising their voice against the federation on any count. 23, 22 or 21 state associations writing letters to the federation and seeking election is unprecedented, which I think has I won't say that I have got FF rackled. If I say that they will be upset, and they will they mentally oppose it, they are not rattled. But it has made them think, I think so they try to make a few concessions. They are holding on to their chairs. That's why they wanted to make a few concessions. That's why the such as such as concessions that we are, we are only a character government, we will not take any decision. And we will vacate the post the moment court order comes. But the thing is that when AFF went to the court, seeking directives, that time nobody was consults consulted, no member was consulted at that time, no state association was informed, wasn't was not it a wasn't it a policy decision? Yeah, seeking extension of mandate. Isn't it a major policy decision? Who was consulted at that time? Nobody was so again, from a very outside perspective, a few weeks ago, you look at these 2021 state associations, writing to the federation saying, when you approach the Supreme Court asking for an extension of the mandate, without any elections being held, etc, etc. You are looking for, obviously, a change in the dynamics in the situation, right? So what transpired over those few weeks that has led to now, the same state federation's attending the AGM, and not voicing the same concerns. Why? I mean, I suppose, apart from the fact that okay, now, maybe the approach has been a little bit more of a soft glove approach. I don't know if that's the term. But but it's a more of a gentler approach saying key, I'm upset, but then we are going ahead with this plan, and we are proposing it to you, and we ask you to give your opinion on it. So apart from that little change in, what the behavioral change, what what is different in these few weeks that I think turn around. One one reason is a people a couple of a couple of senior officials of the AFF who are close to Mr. Patel, they kept on. They have they kept on what you say, talking to state associations, their secretaries, their presidents, everybody asking them why that we were doing it and and telling them that they can, he can, these things can be can be mended, this can can be changed. And another thing is that some of the states of state associations have our good within themselves, and also try to influence the other associations saying that since the matter is in is in Supreme Court, then why get into it? What is the point of arguing? Let Supreme Court come out with a with a verdict, let Supreme Court say something, we will see what happens. And then we will talk about it. Because there is a time factor involved involved in this, this, because there was a committee which was working on the constitution of the AFF, which apparently submitted the constitution this year early, I believe February, and the Supreme Court has not acted on it or made a decision on it or ratified it. So we are talking about quite a delay in that matter. And so I guess now that if you're looking at the timeframe involved, then it's going to be a long drawn affair. And can I also just say that, you know, expecting the court to act at speed in a situation which is asked for a change of fundamental change in sports bodies functioning. It's a bit in the light of how generally things have happened in the court. It's a bit sort of expecting too much. You're expecting and at the same time, you're seeing in cricket that there is almost a defiance of the new constitution that has been given to them that has been ordered by the court. So it's almost like governors or sport in India are now looking at the court and saying, let's use this in the best way that we can make it work for us. The ones that want to hang on to their places, whether it's in cricket or whether it's in football. Let's work with the with the slowness of the legal system to start with and to use that. And if they change and we don't like what they change, we will pay no attention to it. You know, who's going to keep going back to court? There is this as well. So it's almost like AIFF is waiting for a legal stalemate that they'll just continue in this way as long as they can. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a game plan. Game plan. Very obvious. Yeah, obvious. In between all this, there was a case that was filed by a former India player seeking, I mean, again, in the Supreme Court, and anything on that? Yeah, anything on that, because I believe you spoke to him the other day. Yeah, yeah. I spoke to him and sent me and sent me again, trying to expedite the situation, a little bit putting in another appeal to the Supreme Court to speed on things up so that the elections are conducted. Yeah, he has he has filed a petition. And now he's waiting for the for the date to bring it up. I don't think it is becoming before January. Because because all these things were supposed to come on 18th of December, some people said it might come up in the court hearing 18th of December. But somehow it did not happen. I don't know why it did not happen. I have no idea about it. But AGM has passed off rather peacefully, because nothing has come up in the court. So yeah, as per also my little bit of information, the this matter, the field cover that has been presented to the Supreme Court, which contains the new the draft of the new constitution constitution will come up for listing before the Supreme Court on January four. Okay. So it's only on January three, when we'll know whether the Supreme Court has the time to sort of take that up in its proceedings for the following day, or whether it will once again be, you know, pushed aside for more pressing sort of matters that the court needs to adjudicate on or give some sort of opinion on. That's one. Secondly, and we don't we don't honestly know whether or how long this this process will continue. Given that in mind, what could be a possible sort of end goal how long this obviously can't continue indefinitely. Sharda, you've already said that like the purpose is to continue this process of litigation continually, right and use the courts as a maybe a way out, rather than a solution in terms of figuring out something long term, but just to stall matters and keep things stuck for as long as people may maintain the status quo as long as possible. How does all of this figure in terms of the fact that the Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports has already de recognized several of the National Sports Federation, which includes the All India Football Federation, and and who will sort of to be held accountable for the impact that comes there off because it's as far as what is in the mandate of these associations of these Federation. It is of course growing the game and then ensuring that those that are part of that fraternity playing the game and and associate it with it also continue to benefit from the system around it. So the rules very clearly according to sports code state that you know a lot of the impact will be held not just by the the governance but but the athletes involved because you you are if you're D recognized you are not eligible for a government job. You're not eligible for college admission on sports quota. You know, if you're a national level medalist, you're not eligible for things like railway confession. So so it has wide ranging impacts maybe not on the the administration but on the athletes that are involved in this and this applies to men women, everyone who is associated with that Federation. So so to that end, how do these caretaker governments as such function and what is happening to people impacted by this recognition because it's an annual process now. Look, yeah, and I think putting making it an annual process was supposed to bring in a certain question of accountability and responsibility from the body. But let us remember that in the Indian scenario, what all of us as journalists must literally put plant in our head the fact that the ladder of importance and of hierarchy in Indian sports starts with officials, maybe media, maybe not, and players at the bottom. So you're saying that look at the look at all the look at all the when when in fact, it should be the other way around. This is Joy Bhattacharya, a great hierarchy of Indian sport that he has created. I'm just repeating it. I must give credit. He said it should be athlete. The Federation should be thinking of athlete media and then official them. It works. So you have to remember that all these consequences of the recognition, it's on the athlete. It's not an official. It's not on, you know, it's not it's not happening to them. If the athletes that are not able to get a job, get a college admission on quota. So it really is not priority. Priority for my voice is rising because this is a favorite topic in my priority for Indian sports, administrators and governors, majority, I say, I say 90% and I'm being kind is themselves. They're forced what they do. What are the perks of the job? That's what it is. If there are some people and even the BCCI, which is supposed to be best run in air quotes, organization, we can see what's happening there, you know, best organized. In that article that I wrote for AC yesterday, the actual number of people impacted by no cricket because of COVID 6,500 players and 500 officials, you know, there's people that that umpires for so and so. And but there is no mention of that. There is no question of so which tells you why you need governance restructuring and all that but look at the level of brazenness and shamelessness that you are ignoring all the new rules that are supposed to be in place. People who are going to attend the meeting day after tomorrow. They are not they should not be standing for office. You know, they put in their chachas and their mamas and everybody else and their daughters and their cousins and their sons and so that is what is what is going on. So there is no, there is no sense of remorse. It's almost like a reflection of what's happening in the country of whatever actions they take, there is no sense of remorse and that you are actually answerable to a larger population than just yourself in these positions of power. And so in your assessment, Leslie, yeah, I was going to ask you anyway in your assessment. Is this something that you're seeing across several federations perhaps that have been that are I mean 57 I think as for the last listen and three were recognized after that. So, so I would imagine a vast majority of recognize the Olympic sports or globally played sports are on that list. They have been deregistered. So if Sharda saying 6500 which I would assume to be a very sort of upper range like a lower estimate of how many people are impacted by the fact that cricket is not going on in the country. But perhaps already people who are already in the system and at an elite level at some yes. So if you go down further to the grass roots and the numbers will be massive. Same with with football, if you consider that, for example, the youth league have been postponed because of the pandemic, even though elite level competition is continuing. Tens of thousands of boys and girls across age groups are impacted by that. Leslie, are you seeing this similar a similar trend in sports like boxing and wrestling, which are potentially medal winners for India when the Olympics finally come around in 2021 for me or whenever that happened? As far as the present is concerned, there's no conflict going on in the wrestling federation. But if you a decade and a half back, there was a huge conflict. And in that crossfire, many athletes including me lost our career since in the sport. So that is one point that I wanted to add to Sharda's and your discussion about athletes losing out on certificates on jobs and getting college admissions and all that. They get caught in the crossfire. So if there is a if there is taxional fights happening within the system, it's not happening in the air for fat press at present because it's I mean, it's a huge caucus that's controlling it. And the same with many of the other federations where the top people who are holding onto the seat are very strong that they have subdued all form of factionalism or voices rising against them. But in the in the boxing federation, which was supposed to have its elections this year, a new faction has come up, which is challenging the existing president who is addressing the owner of spices. And so the election, the AGM for boxing was supposed to be held on the 18th of this month. And quite quite the opposite of what happened in the air. Majority or well mean majority of state associations wrote to the boxing federation of India elections returning officer that considering the dangerous circumstances of COVID-19 and considering the age of the officials who are all above 60 70. It's not safe to conduct AGM and an election this year. So please postpone it. So and and the returning officer agreed to that and the AGM on the 18th as well as well as the election was postponed. But now there is a reason why this game played out. It's because Ashish Taylor former Maharashtra Sports Minister and a BGP leader, he has thrown his hat into the competition into the into the fight for the presidency of the boxing federation. And he has some support. I'm hearing that Jake only the current secretary supporting that faction. And so there is an internal fight happening there. So there are some associations who are with the new group of people who are trying to take control of the federation while the existing president has some people with him. So yes, it's very clear. And it's also alleged by the other party that he has mobilized these letter writing and then use that to to get the elections postponed at the same time on the 24th of this month, couple of days from now, they're they're holding an emergent meeting where they're trying to extend the mandate by three to six months till the COVID crisis is extend the mandate of this body till the till the crisis is so against that there is a I mean, it's like a soap opera. You can easily lose track of it. So against that, UP Boxing Association has filed a file a case in Delhi High Court, the hearing happened last Friday. But the ask you for a stay order for them on the emergent meeting, but the court didn't agree to that and court has set a new date for the hearing on January 10 very convenient because the emerging meeting will happen and most probably the mandate would be I mean, extended to six more months and everybody is happy, except for the people who wanted election in the body. And again, so once this kind of actual struggle happened, what happens is that there is always a like, likelihood of a breakaway federation or cases happening and adult body coming into play and all that. So this happens at the high level at the at the National Federation level. And then what happens is they could lose recognition with the with the World Body Boxing Federation had already lost recognition in the early part of this decade. And that that political game trickles down to the district level, even because every every person up there in the executive committee or the national general body will have their people backing right from the state association district association. So factions happen right through till the grassroots. And that is where youngsters and I'm talking about generations of people losing out generations of athletes losing out because they just don't know which body which person and if you if you end up competing with one, one association or one set of officials, then you get devoured by the other and God help you if that other person is the one who will be on the winning side. So that's that's that's my story if you ask me. So I'll sit down. I'll just jump in. You know the story of Deepak, Karmakar and her going to Rio is founded on the background of this to warring gymnastics Federation. Yeah, you know, and if she had not pushed and like her like her coach had not gone to the minister, this had not happened. This had not happened. She would not have gone to Rio. You know, this is a winner of a Commonwealth Games India's first gymnastics medal at a Commonwealth Games at a big international event. She would not have gone. It's okay. She did win you a medal in Rio, but she made the final. She was there. She was fourth. So and this was happening behind it. There were these two things you can go for this exactly what Leslie is saying. Yeah, and it's very clear that these officials were fighting each other. I mean, I've seen that that in 10 years time, they will be friends, they will be ruling the Federation together while they are very vindictive towards the athletes who we know which way to compete and they just want to compete. That's that's the whole point. So so this this the in fighting beyond officials losing their chair and Federation's direction and all that. It just kills generations of athletes and we lose momentum and boxing Federation clearly when Boxing Federation lost his recognition in 2013 14 and then look at how our performance was in 2016 Rio again, we didn't win a medal and before that, 2002 London as well as in Beijing in 2008, we got one medal, but many of our boxes were there in the there or thereabouts in the middle rounds as well. I mean, they could have won. I mean, they just lost narrowly, but in Rio, it was it was completely bad performance. That's because they lost out. I mean, and these are elite boxes. So imagine the picking down effect down the down the road. That's that's how it's how does it work in cricket because like that is what grabs the most eyeballs by far in country and I think even the people watching probably far more concerned about how cricket features in this conversation versus any of these other sports, respectively, what we might be. Firstly, what a constitution hair. So, will put my constitution hair to Joe proposed Kia Jara from by those who are currently holding the positions. What what is their kind of stance and and what in your opinion is is their end game? What are they looking at achieving? The end game fundamentally is to hold on to office. That's the end game. When the whole BCCI constitution and the whole thing came up and they had the Supreme Court step in and do all these various recommendations and so on. The only thing that the BCCI old officials argued about or focused on or concentrated on was age limit and tenure and cooling off. They were not bothered about anything else. The issues they should have addressed was that listen, we think that your conflict of interest rules are a little bit wonky. Can we work them out better? Can we have a conversation with you? They had six months to address these things. But all that they were worried about was age limit may or not. Cooling off may or not. Now that they've got this done, they are literally they are ignoring the constitution that was formed. They are ignoring all the new rules that are in place. They have all planted their various family members into the post and the older guards, which is Srinivasan, Aniruch Agri, all these names and taking Anurag Thakur, they are making sure that they can control the state associations that are there because they've got family and their own people, friends and all friends and family. So their whole game is to because BCCI is so much money. And you know, there is a there's a very interesting bit in Ram Guha's book, which I just read, which said that there was a Deloitte's did like an audit independent audit. And they could not share it because it was so horrific. But they said we'll give you a hearing and Ram Guha took notes about it and he said that some people were giving you accounts handwritten on a piece of paper. These are state associations. Every year from say 2008 or close to the IPL has been around. State associations have been getting 50 crore rupees between 30 crore rupees a year on average, all state associations a year state associations to function. The whole thing is to be sitting on this money. How are you going to use it? You know, what you're going to where are you going to plant it? Where does the money go? All those are what governance is supposed to be about the the BCCI's office where they had the main thing both in the sports code and in the BCCI constitution is separation of governance and management. The moment you separate governance for management, then these guys, their job is to think about the game and to focus on what they can do in terms of wider, broader perspective sort of Ganguly should be thinking about women players, junior players, first class contract, that is their responsibility. But no, they are thinking of what you have disconnected them from the money because the money is looked after the CEO, the CFO has gone. There was a chief operations officer who has gone. So they have stripped the entire management office of its capable people, because people don't want to work there. So the end game is to just be in charge of that money and control the little things, you know, control the handouts and the largest that you give one way or the other. If it's a sponsorship deal, what will you get from it? You know, the story of sort of Ganguly's many conflicts of interest. It just boggles the mind that they are even there and they're not talked about. And they are being now said that this is a political game. He's a soft target. So that is the whole thing that is in play. It is about power and control and being at top. It's not that they're robbing money from the BCCI's treasury, but they are controlling all the favors that you can give and get in return for the things that you do, which may be without the CEO even having any independent sort of input into what's going on. The current office bearers that way, again, it's, it's hardly surprising because it was a compromise formula, right? Because otherwise, otherwise, these, these two jesha as well as sort of Ganguly wouldn't have been there. So all these old players in Srinivasan and everybody had a, had a stake in it. And this was the compromise that they made. And beyond that, I guess, maybe the unreaded agreement was that we will ensure that all these tenures and everything would be removed by the time, by the time because I follow the story of this whole thing so closely, you could literally see the media management that was sort of going on behind the scenes, you know, so when the first thing that the, when the reforms came, they said, hey, ministers go to bring sports, ministers go to bring sports code. So sports code will override the BCCI code, nothing of the sort. No sports code came. That's sports code, which is quite dramatic. This 2017 one, it's hanging because they do not want something which says that ministers cannot be there and all kinds of other crazy sort of very fanciful and dream scenario sort of conditions are there. They'll not push that, they'll not push that through. They don't want to push it through. So and almost as a reflection of what you're seeing across other Indian sports happening is that you are literally, the cricket has a sort of life of its own and its own energy and it's got this vast sort of it's a magnet that people are attracted to. But you should have a team that should be winning every international match at play. Okay, not every, you should be super dominant. You should be winning everything. You have resources, grounds, money, everything at your disposal. People, talent coming in. So what you're going to do is maybe it'll run for a while in this sort of manner. But who knows, you know, what happens? Why are you not winning more? Same thing. Why is, why is, why do we not win more medals at the Olympics? It's not athletes is because the sport is administered so shabbily in this country that you see the consequence that the medal stally response is a response to the administration and not thought to be athletes. And that makes absolute sense. I don't think anyone watching this will have any sort of questions about the motivation because understanding, I mean, it's fairly simple power dynamics which operate in at every level of our life. And this seems very similar except with billions of dollars at stake and of course, control over cricket. Jerry, you know, Joe, now that how much of a role has the pandemic played firstly in all of this first and secondly, 2017 was when the new constitution or was asked for or where the ombudsman was appointed and and Bhaskar Ganguly, former India captain and S.Y. Kureshi, former election commissioner of India, who appointed to kind of write that constitution and then give it back to Supreme Court who would then ratify it and then everything that happens in the AFF would would be according to that new constitution. And now 2017, say like a 2020 end, they have obviously been several delays in that process. Even if we say that, okay, that sealed cover was submitted to the Supreme Court early this year. A lot of time was wasted or was not not I wouldn't say wasted because I'm not accounting for the time but a lot of time went by without any action having been taken. So so the timing of all of this also given the added sort of angle of the pandemic seems completely off. See, this is nothing to do with the pandemic. First of all, the the the committee which was headed by Mr. Kureshi and Dr. Kureshi and Bhaskar Da, they were told to submit the report within eight weeks. What stopped them to submit in what what made them to submit in three years? I have no idea. Which maybe there was some problem. I don't want to criticize them. But I thought it has gone too long. They could have given it earlier itself. So there was some lethargy on part of some people somewhere. I cannot blame Dr. Kureshi for it. But look, since I have no evidence or I cannot say anything on this, but I everyone thought it is getting too late. And one thing is there when when Dr. Kureshi has claimed in a PTI interview that he had already submitted in February 2020, which Leslie said at the start of our conversation. And and Supreme Court has not taken note of it because they are at the moment busy with so many other things, more more important things they have in mind, which is also fine. But at the same time, when so that means the Federation, everybody knew that if the Constitution doesn't come, the Federation elections could be in jeopardy. We take everybody new and the Federation elections is in December December 2020, which everybody knew from December 2016. Because it had to be held in four years. Everybody knew about it. So why for this extension of mandate and for the for the for the for the directives from the from the Supreme Court was sought in November 2020. This is like cannot understand. This could have been asked six months before. This could have been asked four months before. This could have been asked one year before. Just before one month before the before the before the election is supposed to come. Why the timing? Well, that is that is that is what baffles everybody. The Federation, if they were they were really willing to idea to say if they were really willing to hold the election, they could have gone there one year before. See, one year from now is our elections. Please let us know what to be done on that. On on on the December 21 year is your election and you go to court on a court on in November and November 21 you write a letter to the State Association saying which we have asked for the extension of mandate. So there is something something funny something very funny and something there is to be fair to the Federation. Last year they were busy demoting. I think you are so stupid that we can't see what's going on. No, no, they they are not, they are not see they are, not bothered. What you and I think is not bothered. They are not bothered. Let you take it. Take it later. We are nobody. correct. We are only wasting your time talking to each other. They must be laughing if anyone is watching, they must be laughing. Yeah. So the same thing, if if when we talk about all these federations and all the infighting that's happening there in June, July, I believe, the body which is which is the umbrella over all these federations, the Indian Olympic Association, what mess played out in front of the internal fight between the president and the secretary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See my experience, I'm telling you, Siddhanti, you have since you have asked this question, Siddhanti, in September, I think in September, I think I asked a senior AF official that what is happening to your to your elections, he started laughing. He said, I said, why are you laughing? He says, just wait and see this committee will go forever. I said, how can that be possible? Your elections is in December 21, as per the sports code. How can it be? Then he said, don't show much interest, you will get to know about it, but they will continue after that also. So that means, that means it was planned that this is going to happen like this. I'm inclined to believing that because I believe Praful Patel has been president of Western India Football Association since 1993 or something. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And most important thing is that as the president of the AFF, he advised all these state associations to accept the AFF constitution as the model constitution. The AFF constitution says, nobody can stay in the office more than 12 years. So AFF president wrote it to Western India Football President, and Western India Football Association did not enter to the AFF directives. This is what happened when N. Sivasa was in the ISL franchise owner, he was in the IPL franchise owner, IPL governing council, and president of the board. So he could sit in one room and have a conversation with three people. At the moment, he is his FIFA council member, which is I think for an Indian in any sporting body, it is one of the highest posts because FIFA is one of the biggest sports federations in the country. But what is the quality of person you are sending out in sports administration? I don't want to get the program into trouble and whatever, but please. But you look at people who are on top of all these bodies also. You look at the platter who is not in jail. But yeah, you can understand the game that plays on at that level. Another thing I want to add, just what you since you asked, and I completely believe what Mr Patel has said in the meeting. He has said he will not stay a moment after the election is announced, which he will add her to. But the thing is that when the election will be announced. Till the Supreme Court case is over, he said, but the question is when the Supreme Court case will be over. You have to have some, somebody has to be in a hurry, but nobody is in a hurry. It's an interesting thing because also of course FIFA get involved in these situations and and some of us also have have also indicated that for example, there was a suggestion that was mooted of a of a kind of collective decision or a call being taken between FIFA, the all India football federation, as well as Dr. Gureshi and Bhaskar Ganguly, who was supposed to set up the constitution to kind of figure out what are the roadblocks, why is it not going ahead, etc, etc. But that to the best of my knowledge, that call has not taken place. There's also the added the sort of sort that is dangled at least as far as the media is concerned. Now, this happens very often in the media where a federation or the IOA, the Indian Olympic Association, says that if a third party interferes in the operation of a sports federation, then that sports federation is likely to be be recognized by the international body, which will have ramifications to which in the National Sports Court of 2011, and I'm sure in the draft sports court of 2017 as well, there is clear clarification and I'm not meeting out loud, but I'm sort of paraphrasing here. So forgive me, but clear clarification that according to the laws of the land, which is the Union of India, listed in sort of in the union list, I think it's 10 and 13 on that list, that in fact, the government is in a position to oversee the operations of these national sports federation because for one, sports is a major part of international diplomacy. It's how we send our ambassadors, the logic on which the entire I think structure of the Indian Olympic movement is based, that we send our athletes as ambassadors of our country, our culture, et cetera, et cetera, to participate in and to promote the good things about what it is to be Indian. From that on on to then of course, various other aspects of the scenario. So clearly the government believes that it is right and especially because it provides funding of the BCCI may be an exception here, but to all other sports federation that provide a reasonable amount of their substance, whether it's operation costs, whether it's administrative costs, whether it's the cost of sending their athletes on training programs, all sorts of things. So obviously the government, the tax payers money, absolutely. So we should be bringing this to an end because we've been at it for a while and I think, by the way, I challenge everyone and maybe my job is not a job that anyone really wants, but if someone can explain this entire scenario. And you know, that explainer format is quite popular these days. They stick to everything in two or three minutes graphically and explain the whole story. But I think there will be only two graphics here. We won't talk about that in this program. But I'd like to close this by asking each of you for your last comments on what you think, firstly, why you are opposed to this unconstitutional behavior. And as maybe neutral observers, journalists, why do you think it's problematic beyond what we've already stated in terms of the negative impact on athletes and our performance at an international level? This is what is called sort of a kitchen table governance that is on an Indian sport. And we are now in the 21st century and it's time to abandon it and to basically trash it and put it in the dustbin. So we've seen that we've had more than 100 years to see, not 100, sorry, 70 years to see the consequences of kitchen table governance on our sport when the global sport has professionalized. It's absolutely outdated and it's an absolutely disgusting way that everyone that these sports administrators, so all sports are acting. And just one thing very, very quickly, that there's also a case cited in the new or the old sports court might be in the 2011 one, which said that there's a judgment which said that nothing is above the law of the land, even if it's like an Olympic starter or whatever, it's not above the law of the land. So that will be established in law. And you'll find examples all over the world because sports governance all over the world, there'll be a little shady people in it. Okay, I'm stopping. All right, well, whichever one of you wants to go next. Nicholas Lee said whatever he has to say. So yeah, Siddharth mentioned about the sword dangling from the global body about when these things happen within the national set up of any sport for that matter. But the thing is that it's again, earlier I went downwards saying that this thing gets affected right till the grassroots as far as the internal fights happen. The same thing applies up there also. If Praful Patel is a council member in FIFA, so obviously action would be very reluctant. I mean, I'm just saying they might take action, but still there would be some kind of reluctance because that's how the electoral politics up there happen. So there is connections over there. So there, if you have noticed all the history of federations being diva or recognition taken out from the global body, it has all happened when there is a faction and that faction is favored by the global body. So it's as simple as that. And same thing applies here when there is a faction within the federation, the Indian Olympic Association favors one faction that is when infighting happens, breakup happen, court cases happen, at least get affected The main point, of course, we discussed all those implications here, but the main point is the idea of how to take Indian sport forward. So if you have, I mean, it's a simple logic also, why we have elections every five years, I mean, general elections, assembly elections, local body elections, it's for people or for the, I mean, democracy people are the stakeholders, it's for the people to decide whether this set of people were good enough to take the country forward, take the municipality forward, take the state government forward. The same thing applies to sport, the sport associations or the representatives of the state association who come into elect the national body. They should have a stay every four years to decide whether this set of people ran the game properly or ran the show properly. And if it's not, the set of people should come in. And it's not about that either. Sometimes even a great administrator or a great group of administrators having run two years or eight years or whatever the stipulated tenure is, you will need fresh approach, fresh set of ideas to take things because it's a constantly evolving ecosystem you're talking about globally sport. It's not what it is today, two years from now. So it's a simple process. So to catch up with the time, you will need new people to come in, you will need fresh ideas. So these elections, beyond all the political gaming and all that, it's about getting the right people in place to take things forward. And if that's not happening, then we are actually, we are not even stagnant, we are bringing down things further. So it's a simple logic. Last word to you, Jerry sir. See, I think this threat of FIFA might take action against India is an empty threat. Because as far as I know, FIFA has a lot of respect for the law of the land. They don't consider this a third party. If I and Hugh had gone to the court, if one of the members have gone to the court, one of the officials had gone to the court, they would have immediately taken action. But since it is a supreme court decision, so they have a lot of respect for the law of the land of every country. Until something does happen, as it happened in Trinidad and Tobago, which was bizarre. So that is a different issue. But Indian situation is not bizarre. My only worry is that for the last 15, 20 years, all India Football Federation was one of the better governed federations in the country. But a group of people for their greed and to achieve their own gain and for their ambition, they might reduce to another Federation where a faction fight might start today or tomorrow or maybe sometime. That's what I feel. I'm not sure about what the faction fight will be because, as we all know, the Indian Super League is up and running and it's in full flow. I'm not saying there will be a faction fight, but it might ignite problems. That's what I see. Instead of the so-called happy family, it may not turn out to be a happy family because to make it a happy family, you have to keep everybody happy. One cannot think that only I will remain happy and it will still be a happy family. That's not done. That's what I mean. So this spreading happiness, in many ways, they try to do, right? For instance, dispersing of funds, policies, stadiums, matches, cricket, it happened. So I don't know about that. Resources and cricket is too much. But it's not in democracy. Football, you don't have so much of a fund also. Yeah, several of these concerns. In fact, we were having a chat. We were doing a weekly roundup of the ISL in which we were just talking about some of these things and it did come up that there's no opposition in principle to the ISL existing as a tournament or even as a private tournament or being governed the way it is governed. I mean, it should be for the clubs and the entities that are members of the ISL to decide how it's governed or not. But when you have a constitutional body, a society that is supposed to administer, like Sharda was mentioning earlier very categorically, about making the distinction between management and governance, between policy and actual day-to-day administration of what happened, that some of these issues come up because what we're saying now is that all of this is being like Things can be brushed aside. We look at all the, and we're going to have a chat with former India international, Ishwak Ahmed and Gormangi Singh in a little while from now where we'll be talking about some of the young players making an impact on the Indian Super League and of course they are. Those are the guys we're all sitting and watching every evening. But just because young players are coming into the system and doing well, does not equate to a thumbs up for the way the system is being structured and will continue to operate because we will see in the future that you will have a large number of these highly trained sort of elite level athletes who maybe spend some time on the bench, maybe get a contract for a year or two and then suddenly disappear. And meanwhile, where they are looking for, because like Jaydeep was mentioning just now, cricket may have a lot of resources and so on. But in other sports people are looking, even in cricket, people are looking for government jobs, people are looking for sports quota admissions to university to all kinds of things which help them actually survive and grow as human beings, not just as athletes. And that suffers, particularly when the government turns around and de-recognizes it, which makes it absolutely, you're saying that it's not a bizarre situation, Jaydeep sir, and you're not equating it with Naira and Tobago. But to me, it is bizarre that the Ministry of YouTube as in sports on the one hand has de-recognized the all-India football federation. And on the other hand, you know, the president of the AFF and the sports minister are standing on the same stage and making a joint bid for the AFC Asian Cup 2027. AFF has been given the recognition back because it came from Supreme Court. So many of the federation have gotten the recognition back. I have had this one of them. Till October 2021, I think they have got it. Till October, all right. Thank you for that important clarification. So fair enough, I suppose that then that makes sense. We will of course follow this. The BCCI AGM is a couple of days from now. I think it'll be all over the press, what happens there, how free the press is to report on what actually happens, how free, you know, members of that board are to speak about the goings on and how much they want to or not is a different matter. But thank you all for at least doing your jobs as responsible journalists and media people and for sharing that all of this wealth of information with everyone watching for and thank you to everyone who's tuned in for this conversation. I hope you stuck around for all of it. Please read Sharda's story on the Hindustan Times website and Jedeep's story on NewsClick and follow Leslie for continuous updates on all of the stuff that NewsClick is doing. We will have more for you, not just on the field but also what goes on around it. For now, that'll be all. Thank you very much. Have a good night.