 Aloha and welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Carlos Juarez, and joining me today, I'm delighted to welcome a young leader here in our state of Hawaii, Representative Jackson Sayama. Welcome to our show, Jackson. So, Representative, thank you so much for joining us and sharing some insights. We have a fascinating topic. Let me just first give you a quick hello and ask you to just say, Aloha, welcome. And then I'll talk a little bit more about what's ahead, but thank you for joining us. That's good. Well, thank you so much for having Carlos. I'm a big fan of Big Tech Boy. It was always watching it back when I was still in school, so I'm really excited to be on it. And I'm glad that we could have some issues today. No, thank you again. And this is a show called Global Connections where we really discuss and we explore a range of issues that are maybe globally oriented, internationally oriented in different ways, different subject matter experts. Often I, you know, as a professor myself, actually now I'm a retired professor. I'm now working at the East West Center, but I still work with a lot of international programs, but I'm excited because as a young leader yourself, in so many ways, you help us both see and basically recognize the importance of what I call global education. And I want to take a moment to explain that because I think, you know, we know often this term international or global, and, you know, often if we go into look at universities, for example, where we do a lot of our, let's say our higher education training, you know, you might have a course, you might even have a program that is international in its orientation. But that's different when we talk about global education today, we're really talking about remarkable changes so that today you have universities that are now connected all around the world and with campuses worldwide. And I want to use you as a chance to help illustrate that because tell us a little about yourself. You're obviously a local boy here from Hawaii. You today represent now in the House of Representatives of the state legislature, the district that is, if I'm not mistaken, St. Louis Heights area above VUH and the old seat of Calvin's say, of course, and well, you have come to it in a curious way because today you're a state and local official dealing with all the issues that entails, but your background, while you grew up here, took you to do your studies abroad and specifically at New York University's Shanghai campus. So maybe just by way of helping some of our observers know, the listeners know a little bit more about your own background. You're a young legislator, but you've got this fascinating story, having grown up here, having gone to school here, but finishing high school, unlike so many others that maybe go to the mainland or stay here in Hawaii, you chose to go to China. So tell us a little bit about your background and how that came about. Sure thing. So I was born and raised St. Louis Heights and went to Hukulani Elementary, then Punahou down the street. And while I was at Punahou, I studied Mandarin for about seven years, as well as attending Chinese language school in Kaimuki, Katsuchi. And it was really that transition of studying matter and culture through textbooks that I became interested in studying China. That being said, I didn't know much about it, other than maybe at the time the Olympics was a big thing in 2008, as well as maybe some issues regarding climate change and air pollution. But that was it. And knowing its language, knowing its importance in the global geopolitics and its economy, I thought it was important for me to know more about China and to bring that knowledge back to Hawaii. So actually, I always have the opportunity to go to Shanghai. I really kind of check it out before committing to NYU Shanghai. But I was really amazed at the infrastructure and the culture of people, its governance. And so I decided, hey, this is something I could learn a lot from. And I hope to bring that experience, that knowledge to Hawaii and really grow it as a legislator. Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. And of course, you touch on a few things that are worth, let's say, elaborating a bit. As a student yourself, you went to Punahou School, which is one of our local private schools that obviously has its own focus on a lot of global issues, a global connection in so many ways, the Woh Center and others. But you also have some of our public high schools that carry that out with the international baccalaureate that's offered in a few of them. But of course, that helps spark your interest. But I think you mentioned that you began Chinese language studies quite early. And that of course is critical because it helped to not just only understand how to communicate, but one of the things I always underscore about language learning is it helped you get into the mindset to understand the values, the way that a different culture might see the world, right? Just because how the language is more than just, again, translating a word, really understanding more of that. And here your interest got sparked early on and like you said, well, you didn't know anything about China, even though you're studying it. And I couldn't help but relate myself as a young college student. I studied a lot about China. This was a long time ago. It was the whether it's understanding the Civil War or the rise of the Communist Party system, etc. I'm talking about the 70s and 80s long before the China that we know today is very, very different. And it hit me, even though I've been a college professor for years and studied and taught about it, I myself didn't actually visit China until about 2008 or 2009, similar to what you mentioned, the Olympics. And it is eye opening. It's one thing to study and even study a language. It's another thing to suddenly find yourself very immersed. And so in your case, you selected a campus and this again illustrates the globalization of the world today in China. And now for some years, you have a number of international campuses. In other words, campuses of foreign universities that are operating there, many from the US and as well, some other places describe you. I mean, maybe some of that context, because again, it's not like you're going to China to study at a Chinese university. And yet there are, there are foreign nationals who do go to, you know, Qinghua, maybe some of the other elite schools throughout. I'm trying to remember in Shanghai Fudan University and others, they have a global connection as well. But in your case, NYU, New York University has a campus there as do others. And tell us a little bit about how that plays out because they are in American universities, obviously an American student like yourself can go there. But I imagine they also have other international students and local Chinese students who might be immersed. So what is that like there? Sure. So like you said, NYU Shanghai is an American university. And it really was an experimental pilot program, a joint project between NYU and the Chinese government. And so with that collaboration, the student body represents that. So each grade is 300 students, half of which are Chinese nationals, the other half the international. And each, I guess cohort of students, the international demographics change considerably. But overall, it's an incredibly diverse student body. And in your freshman year, the university will have your room with a Chinese national, if you're international, and vice versa. This way, it's not so much of a culture shock to international students transitioning to life. So having that roommate really helps international students who are not familiar with the culture, the language, get used to life there in the city, as well as the school. But often I get asked, oh, okay, so are the classes taught in Chinese? And no, it's no, unless you're in a Chinese class, of course, most in all classes are taught in English. And the curriculum is something very similar to other American universities. In access to information, for example, same access we get if I were to be in New York City, NYU. Of course, that's limited to the campus. If you were to go off campus, you would have to use a VPN of sorts. But you still have access to that information you need for your studies or otherwise. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. And what you describe in many ways also you are also describing aspects of what we might call experiential learning. So it's not just going and taking class, your experience there, connecting with a local Chinese roommate. And for that same roommate, him having a foreign national that comes and he learns about your culture, your state, your background, that is also a key part of it. And one of the things that we know from a lot of experience of studying abroad, it's often common that students will tend to congregate and sort of stay together with their own. And that's understandable if you're in a foreign land, but often it takes away from your ability to fully immerse in the culture. If you only you go to study in Paris, and you're only hanging out with all the American students or whatever it might be. So I'm pleased to learn of that. And I think that comes from experience understanding the, you know, both also your own, let's say assimilation or ability function there, because it's a different society, complex, different rules and norms, having that roommate kind of gives you sort of a nice helping hand, right. And, you know, one of the other maybe challenges, because on one hand you describe your, you're an NYU student, you've got the same access and tools, and yet you're living in a different society and China or whatever we might describe it is not the same open society that we know in the US and maybe other Western cultures. There's more, you know, let's say political control, more dissent is more frowned upon. So are there challenges there? Moreover, as you well know, in recent years, we've seen dramatic protests of in neighboring Hong Kong over challenges there for a political autonomy. And of course, China with a history of suppressing dissent. I don't know what you can share about it, maybe how the experience was for you, living there accommodating it, because you come from a pretty open and maybe liberal oriented, even your educational background, the education you would have gotten there for the whole would be, you know, instilling in you, you know, questioning and critical thinking and things that, you know, we would continue in higher education. And yet with China, again, there's that concern that maybe, you know, I don't know, did it play out in any way for you? Were there any challenges, the obstacles? I don't know, curiosities, things that you can share? Yeah, so like you said, I think that was one of the most valuable lessons experiential learning, as you refer to it, for me, going to NYU Shanghai. This, that chance to look critically, not only at my worldview, but also, you know, what life is like here in Hawaii and the US, comparing that to the Chinese way of life. And certainly, there are really concerning policies, like you mentioned, Hong Kong as well, the Xinjiang in recent years, Taiwan, of course. But while I was there, none of that really affected me personally. Especially because during my time there, those issues weren't front and center. Maybe my senior year, Xinjiang, I started on the issue, but it was still, I guess, it was just starting. And when I was there, like, when it comes to freedoms, I suppose, there's always something you'd recognize when you go to a Chinese city, it's all the cameras on the streets. And to me, I was like, you know, I don't personally care too much about that. One thing I noticed in Shanghai was, despite it being such a popular city that, you know, even during late nights, people are still wandering around. It's an incredibly safe city. I felt perfectly safe and my classmates felt safe wandering the city that night through these dark alleys. And we could only feel that security because of these cameras. Now, of course, that's a double-edged sword. But it's kind of the difference in governance. You know, you could have your freedoms, but that comes at a price. Similarly, if you want more security, that comes at the price of privacy. But, and admittedly, I was very impressed by the efficiency in which the government was able to promote development in the private sector, but also promote certain agendas in the public through their educational institutions, through even their public transportation systems that were extremely clean, extremely efficient. You know, that gives people a sense of comfort and as well as a trust that, hey, you know, the government can do well. It could help my life in many ways. I don't, you know, unfortunately, in Hawaii and the US, I don't think there's that trust between private citizen as well and government institutions. But, of course, to each their own in Chinese society, if you ask the Shanghainese citizen, you know, they might feel great about the government. As someone else, say from Hong Kong or Xinjiang, they'll get a very different answer. So, you know, there really is a big difference in society with winners and losers. And who gets to determine that, you know, is very arbitrary to a certain degree, where in the US, minorities are protected. You know, despite our challenges, relatively minorities get a voice in government and have rights. So that's something, you know, I was always, I guess, jostling in my mind when I was studying there. Well, it's fascinating, because, you know, especially as a young adult yourself, coming of age, you're questioning these things, you're looking at it, you're experiencing it, now you've come back, you're reflecting on it in different ways. And, you know, I, again, I go back to my own rather shock when I finally traveled to China myself after, you know, many years as a professional in learning, what I saw particularly in Shanghai, because I did visit other areas, but Shanghai was this amazing dynamism and optimism and vitality that it made it clear to me that this is not the, you know, the Chinese growing up, let's say in these last 10, 15, 20 years, are not the same Chinese as their grandparents who came of age at a different time, building the country under a different form. And so it is quite remarkable. And maybe on that, a valuable way to turn the question now, because here you've come back, you've finished those studies, you've now, you know, established a career here back home. And now you're a new legislator, you were elected to this past fall into the House of Representatives. And so you're dealing with state and local issues. And yet at the end of the day, you've got this global perspective that's helping form you, you've got perhaps insights, experiences you've seen. And I'm just remarking, or I'm thinking remarkably like what I saw in Shanghai at that time, I had a chance to visit some of the construction that they were doing and learn about the urban development. And when you see the contrast here in Hawaii, the decades of, you know, efforts to try to build a rail system and ongoing, since you were, you know, gosh, you know, you've seen it, it hasn't arrived in China that would have been built in six months, they probably would have lost some people along the way, obviously not much in the way of, let's say, civil society groups, environmental groups, cultural, you know, issues. And that's a trade-off. Yeah, you can get things done quickly, but it's at a cost as well. Maybe the way things get done, you also describe maybe the attitudes towards government, which is also very different. And it's also different in Hawaii than it might be in other parts of the US mainland, partly because of the nature of our own story, the nature of our culture and society. And of course, in the case of China, like many other East Asian cultures, you know, deference to authority, you know, maybe the legacy of, you know, Confucian ethics and, you know, people look to leaders if they are delivering, you know, in a, let's say, in a different way than often in the maybe more individualist US, you know, where we're critical of government, et cetera. But let me ask you this, having now come back and seen that and experienced and had this sort of global education, this global learning, you know, in what ways has that prepared you to look at the challenges here at the local and state level and maybe bring different solutions, different ideas, thinking outside the box? I mean, what are ways that you can say your experience as a young, you know, now global leader working at the local level has prepared you? Well, it certainly gives a context to how or where Hawaii is operating in the world. Like he compared, you know, Honolulu to Shanghai, I guess, technically cities, but in vastly different worlds. And, you know, it has its advantages, like for example, the Chinese culture people are much more receptive to new technologies and new systems. For example, in the three years I was living in Shanghai, we started with paper currency, people were still using that in my freshman year. My senior year, no one was using paper currency, much less card is all electronic currency through WeChat and is incredibly efficient system. I know there are some initiatives trying to launch those same programs here in the US and Hawaii, but it's difficult for people to accept that kind of change, even if that change makes life more convenient. So understanding people and where, how their culture affects their, you know, perception of certain technologies, certain systems. I think that's incredibly useful, especially as my role as a legislator. Maybe some things can be pushed now, but maybe others cannot be, maybe they're too radical. Perhaps they need to be introduced at a more slower pace. So I think there's that. But also the world is no longer independent, you know, like this whole pandemic. One area of the world could completely affect the rest. And so it's important to have understanding, to have empathy also of the rest of the world. It's like, yes, I'm a Hawaii legislator, but I also need to care about other areas of the world, because that affects us, our life here at Hawaii. And if we don't pay attention to that, then we're living in a false sense of bubble. And we can't legislate, we can't lead in the best way. We can't if we continue to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. No, you put it very well. And what you describe it as this, maybe this world that's coming together, the interdependence really, of let's say the pandemic, it may happen far away, it may have begun in the laboratory in Wuhan, China. But at the end of the day, the world, the whole planet is affected. But that can be said of so many other things about trade and commerce, about conflicts that get sort of globalized because of the many interests and so on. And one other thought I had is that you are yourself part of a generation of young Americans that is now, let's say, more globally oriented and connected in your own way. And likewise, a country like China today has a growing number of young professionals, people who are more connected to the world, certainly than their parents and grandparents, and there's even in the curious paradox, China this communist party rule is also a very aggressive form of state-led capitalism. The government helps to stimulate and support and in some ways, you have tremendous advantage to certain large enterprises all over the world. Interestingly, here in Hawaii, we know from our tourism that Japanese are obviously very critical and increasing numbers maybe from China and Korea, but never at the level of what we traditionally had, I'm speaking pre-pandemic. But that's changing as well. And again, today this new generation of young Chinese and I wonder, because I've seen it in my own lifetime, for some 30 years, I've been an educator and I can tell you that the wave of Chinese, whether they are government officials or business leaders or just young professionals, they are much more savvy today and much more aware of the world in ways that, let's say, 20, 30 years ago, they were not. And from your vision and maybe what you saw there and maybe the young Chinese that you have been able to connect with, how do you see them? In one way and one hand, they are still part of that, let's say, Chinese culture and yet they are increasingly well connected and very savvy at working across borders. And anything you can share just as a reflection about that. I mean, again, the New York generation of young Chinese who are in some ways like you've done yourself, connecting to the world. So yeah, like aside from NYU Shanghai, there are hundreds, I'm sure, of programs that connect Chinese citizens, young students with the rest of the world and vice versa. And so my hope is that in my generation with so many young students kind of experiencing different parts of the world with people that when they grew up and get into positions of power that they are better able to, I think, lead in a more empathetic way. Like I think right now we've seen, especially during the Trump administration, a considerable fear of the unknown. And that fear, I understand it, but with some outreach can be mitigated and developed into a more trusting relationship. And so with more and more complex issues like global warming, we need that kind of collaboration, we need that kind of cooperation between different nations, between different people. And so I'm hoping that my generation can provide that kind of leadership. Oh, thank you for sharing that. And in so many ways, it requires a level of what I would call citizen diplomacy, not just the traditional government to government, and even the, you know, maybe business interests that are very strong, but even people to people. And just as you've done as a young, you know, student traveling there, you've now developed some friendships that are going to be lifelong lasting. And in 10, 20 years, people that you're going to be able to turn to, you knew from back then. And let me ask you as a final question, because, you know, you are now as a legislator here in Hawaii, you are in a very valuable way, able to, how should I say, help foster those connections and links in different ways. In other words, Hawaii, and maybe I asked you, Mark, how do you see Hawaii in its future role? Because we are remote and isolated. And yet we are also a bridge. We are also a clear connection for the US mainland and, you know, the country as a whole to Asia, we're a window where, you know, we've got expertise and experience here, but also beyond that, I mean, where does Hawaii fit in your mind? And maybe reflecting even on, as a student there, people will probably intrigued, oh, you're from Hawaii that creates, you know, a certain image that's different from saying that you're from Los Angeles or from Atlanta. So where do you see Hawaii and its role and, you know, anything you can share about that? Sure. So with after Obama, I guess pivot to the Pacific, I think Hawaii has an extremely unique role in diplomacy amongst the Pacific powers. And so I like to call it the Geneva of the Pacific. You know, nowadays we have a format like this through all lines or through, you know, some phone call or even a plane ride over. I don't want Hawaii just to become fly over state. You know, I want people to be able to come here to discuss the issues that we need to cooperate through. So attracting that kind of opportunities for international cooperation, you know, like the Pacific Forum we had or APEC, I think that's where Hawaii can shine in terms of really growing its international influence and elevating its position in the world. Yeah, no, very well said. And, you know, and obviously related to that is we have opportunities as you certainly can help foster to share and showcase what Hawaii offers to the world. And it could be as simple as, hey, we have an indigenous culture society here that understands the importance of connecting to the land and using our resources, you know, so that today, well, sustainability is the hot topic. Guess what? It's been practiced for many, many, many millennia here and in other places. And beyond that little stories, you know, success stories that we may have interesting examples of, you know, innovative things happening at our local level that we can showcase. And, you know, so Hawaii is not just, you know, Milo and Stitch or the honeymoon attraction place, which it is, but it's more than that. And maybe just to the final point, we are ultimately this Geneva of the Pacific is how you call it, I think. Yeah. And it is a place that brings together many resources, a lot of expertise for some of us that are other, you know, institutions in town, foreign policy, especially is very critical as given our foreign defense industry here. So Hawaii, I think with yourself as a future, you know, ongoing leader is going to help connect to the world in more ways. So let me again, thank you. This has been a great opportunity. And I look forward as we, you know, in days ahead of we can have another chance to talk about some other issues, things that are on your agenda in particular. But this has been a great opportunity to well, to understand how global learning has impacted you and helped shape you as an hour young legislator and helping our audience understand again, this world of global connections that we have so many. So on that note, I'm going to close and thank you so much for this opportunity Representative Sayama, joining us today from the House of Representatives here in Hawaii. Aloha and be well. Thank you.