 Ddicutes for my live audience with UFC superstar Padi Ribadi on the 7th of January in Liverpool are now available on Skiddle. Padi will be doing his first live audience and what a night we have planned. We have a meeting greet and photo opportunity with Padi. You also can get to ask Padi some questions. We've also got special guests appearing. This is going to be a night not to be missed. And what a way to start off the new year. See you all soon. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be. And don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. So he very quickly moved in. I mean he shouldn't have been there because like he said he would have had a record through Francis and he's now in home with young kids. So what age was it when Terry raped you? Six. If you're willing to hurt a kid you should have the death penalty. You should have your head chopped off. You should be. That's the only way to keep kids safe. So when they started I nearly raped me. It's awful but I would have poo in my pants. And I'd be absolutely terrified that I'm going to get in trouble again for having my pants sanded so far. So I would have to go and wash them in the sink myself. What was it like when you found out you'd get charged? Fet the odd years later? That was amazing because I didn't think I would ever get that die. So you know Ian Huntley? He changed his name to Ian Nixon to get the caretaker job at the school where we killed Holly and Jessica. What he did then was reverted back to his original name once he got the job. Like when you've been through it people say oh people that have been through it then couldn't go on to be sex abusers themselves. All that bore that story. I think that's actual bullshit. But your mum, when she was on trial to give evidence, she gave evidence against you. Did she not say that you were the one instigating it at six-year-old? Boom, we're on. In today's guest we've got Della Wright. How are you Della? I'm good, thanks James. First of all thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. Your book a couple of weeks ago, Heartbreaking Read. Six years old, groomed, abused, raped but very heartbreaking, very brave as well to tell your story and help many other people now and come forward and hopefully help them try and heal from their past. But first and foremost how are you? Good. So your book's called Trapped which will plug straight away, we'll leave the link in the description. I had to skip through it quite a bit. I've got kids myself so it's quite dark. But very powerful as well. It's basically come forward and the man who'd done this eventually got 22 years in prison. So first and foremost, very brave of you and proud of you. Before we get into everything I'll just go back to the start of my guests. Where you grew up and how it all began? So it all began in Nichols in Birmingham. My mum was only 18 when she had me as a very young pregnant at 17. So the story she tells me is that she had me so that she could get out of the care system. She's got a married young thinking, rose tins of glasses that everything's going to be perfect when she's married and stuff. My dad was a bit of a booger and a womanizer, liked drinking. So they got together a lot younger than, they were immature, didn't have a good upbringing themselves. So they got together, had me and my brother. And so very early on my earliest memories at two and a half. A high rise block of facts in Nichols and the police banging the door down. My brother was next to me in the car. He was screaming, I remember that vividly. I remember them breaking the door down and the reason being mum had gone out to the pub. My dad was now in prison for on robbery. So she was on her own and she liked to go out and meet men. That's one of my earliest memories and up to one of my last memories of her. So the police back at the door down and then it's only after reading my care files that I understand this was a regular recurrence. Did you feel neglected at a very young age or were you kind of oblivious to it? I believe it was at that point, I was still too young. But once I got a bit older it was quite obvious that she wasn't interested enough. She was on a lot of medications. She had mental health issues and she was on medications. She drank a lot. She liked to go out and meet men, as I said. So you have to grow up very quickly. So there's a lot of parties and stuff in your house, a lot of drinking, a lot of smoking, a lot of men, women coming in and out. Was that just so normal to you that you didn't realise the effects it can obviously have on you as a kid? My family used to do all that as a kid. There was smoking, drinking, everybody partying. It was a kind of thing. For me it's child abuse now. It's wiffle, that sort of madness around you. But back then it was an okay occurrence. I'm sure I used to get shandies at four, five lemonade beer and you're drinking it and everybody's laughing and joking. This was only 30 years ago. Obviously I'd like to think things have improved a bit. But when you were going through all that, was that just normal to see everybody coming in and out? All the drinking, all the partying? Yeah, absolutely, because you don't know any different to you. So if that's your environment you think that's normal. So as a young innocent kid you were six years old and this is when everything changes. This is when Terry Spence came into your life. Terry Price, yeah. Terry Price, and he's got another name, was it Robert McEwen? Yeah, and another one. He's changed his name five times. What was it like when he came into your life at the start? So my mum and dad, my dad came out of prison and we were in that horrible block of lights and they wanted to get a fresh start again. So at that time we were very much looked after by social services. They would keep an eye on us. I had a lot of injuries. I went to a doctor's and I would get checked every morning for bruises and stuff. So at that time it wasn't great because I kept going into foster care and being given back to her like a week later. I don't understand the mentality in that. I disagree with it, it should have been removed permanently. But so my dad comes out of prison and then they rekindle their relationship. One fresh start, so they apply to the house which they've got. Literally a mile down the road, so five minutes in the car. But the problem with that was we were now under a new social services and so as more incidents were being reported to them they were looking at each one as a single incident rather than actually looking at the whole background and seeing what it was. So yes, so they moved there and my dad's got a new woman so the relationship didn't last very long. I remember my mum taking me. My dad had took me to meet this new woman. She was an Avon lady so she gave me loads of stuff and I took it back home going on. I got all this. Avon stuff and they've been giving us so much stuff. Then my mum realised he's got a woman. So she gets me to go and show where this woman lives and she's got a car from the pocket. She's going to look for my dad and this woman to whatever she's going to do. Thankfully she didn't see them. But anyway that relationship, my mum and dad broke up then. So with Terry it was sort of like my dad went out one door and Terry walked in, you were pretty rapid. So it was like you say a party, an event and sort of like a divorce party. Everyone there drinking, smoking, everything. But some of the people had kids were put actually in one room upstairs on that occasion. He took it on himself that he would be the child mind in that instance and put himself upstairs with the kids. How did he end up involved with your family? Because he was a sex case before he was in prison before he came into your family's life? He'd already been done for attempted rape and indecent sort of children in his care home. So he was under anipac at that time and I think, I don't know how he got involved with my mum. I think it was friends of friends. But because he'd been through the care system she felt sorry for him and sort of took him under a wing. How was your dad's relationship with Terry? He didn't know him at all really. Because my dad had left home now and once he'd gone, he'd gone. And how old was he when he came into your life? Terry, 17. And you were six? Yeah. How old was your mum? So she had me when she was 18 when I was six. So just 24, is it? Was he grooming you straight from the get-go? Yeah. On that very night. I remember that vividly in the party. It was, oh, look at you, Della, you're a princess. And I love music. It was my favourite thing, music dancing. And it would be, oh, look at you dancing. You were a great little mover. And that was the very first time I met him. And how, what happened after that? So he very quickly moved in. I mean, he shouldn't have been there because like I say, he would have had a record for his fences. And he's now in a home with young kids. My mum, it was great for her now because she had a living babysitter. So she could go out whenever she wanted. So he quickly became our main carer. She was able to get a job at a local chip shop. So again, he was looking after us. He pretty much looked after us 24 seven. Did you? Obviously you're a young kid, you don't know. But was there any telltale sign straight away that something wasn't right? Or were you just happy that somebody was giving you attention, loving you and kind of being a father figure because your dad wasn't there? Yeah. Because the abuse didn't start straight away did it? It was kind of like grooming and telling you were great, little princess and all the other stuff that comes with it. How long after it, when things started to happen? So it was all actually quite quick. And because he's got a history, or he's a deputy knows what he's doing, doesn't he? So, and he's got three reiners, no one there. He would take me with him to his probation meetings. Again, they should have picked up on that a lot. What you do with a six-year-old kid at probation meetings. But it was that nice bit. It was being taken out, being taken out for meals, going to pet shops and things, all things are not done. And yeah, I was getting attention, which one I've read before. So sex offenders taking a kid to his probation meetings, that that ain't normal. Why was that allowed to happen in the first place? No idea. For me when I was reading that, but I couldn't get my head round that. I didn't understand it myself. That's red flag straight away. That should have been reported. He should have been sent back to prison. There should have been things in place for him not to be near school, not to be near kids. That's how fucked up the system is. That's how corrupt it is and that's how messy it is. But a lot of that stuff obviously going on later on, but a lot of that stuff then helped with your case, did it not? Because it was in black and white that you were telling the truth. Plus it was the fact that it was all there to show that. Yeah, what was going on? I applied for my social care records in 2014. So I wasn't aware growing up that these people were actually new. And to see it there in black and white, you just think like what the fuck planet were these people on. Because one of the letters from social services, social services were still heavily involved coming in and out. But my mum, she basically used them if she was in financial difficulty. And she was in financial difficulty again. But someone from the probation had got in touch with them. This was later though like in 1992. To say we've got reason to believe that Terry's cohabiting with this woman. And in the letter from the social services it says, we've gone to speak to Carol and talking about her finances again. Oh yeah, and we saw this man fit in that description. Yeah, he was there. But she's not co-operating with us and we don't think this is working. So we're going to run after her yet. I just think what the fuck. If you just read that paragraph that says, oh yeah, there is a convicted sex vendor there. But she isn't co-operating and she keeps cancelling me. So we're just going to close the case. It just blows my mind. I did a talk the other day with a load of people that are now becoming social workers, police officers and everything. I was like, please, just remember the child in front of you. And if you ever get a letter like that from a social worker or anybody, please concentrate on the paragraph that says there is a sex offender sitting there and not because the parents weren't co-operating. How let down do you feel by the system? Completely. Every single professional of everyone characters let me down. See Terry, was he having a relationship with your mum or anything? Or was there any telltale signs that what he was up to? He may have. I don't remember them having any relationship now, but that's not to say that they didn't. I don't know. So see when he's abusing you and raping you, there was never anything, nobody ever see anything. There was no telltale signs that there was things going wrong. Is that an innocent young girl that there must have been a change in yourself? Was there anybody that ever noticed anything? No. I just thought I was naughty. So naughty that although I had no love or any affection for my mum, as far as I was aware, every time she wasn't there, something really bad was going to happen. So every time she wanted to go out, I'd be holding onto her ankles and screaming and begging her not to leave me. When she took me to school, I'd be taking my clothes off and everything, just so she'd have to stop and pick them up, because I didn't want her to leave me at school. I didn't want her to leave me anywhere because when she left me, it was going to be horrible. So I had that mind, like... But they just looked at me like I was naughty. Scream out for help for an innocent kid like that. So what age was it when Terry raped you? Six. Fuck you. So it was really quick, because he moved in memory six and another. So it was, I don't know exactly the date, so I had a great man who loved pieces and it was her funeral. And they wouldn't let me go because I said I was too young. So he was all look after her, of course he would. And that was the very first day that he raped me. How old were you, sex? Six. How long did that last for? Which means how long did he continue to rape? Up until he left in 1991. It would have been February 1990. And so up until 1991. Over a year? Yeah. It's so sad, man, to hear that and think that it goes on. My daughter's in the next room. Yeah. Even anybody... I've had an undercover pedophile when he went undercover for 20 years to one of the world's darkest jobs to help catch people and the things that he was saying, how people operate. They don't just groom the kids, they groom the parents first to get in with the kids. This is a sex society. We have social media, Tik Tok, Snapchat, the things that people can get to. If these guys want their fix, or women want their fix, but if kids don't get it, it won't matter what way and they'll do anything to get it. See, when you were going through that ordeal, as a kid, can you remember that or do you try and block all that out and it feels like a nightmare? You try and block it out and that's what I did for a long time. So I managed to push it down. But it came out much later in life at one of the worst possible times when I was giving birth. So you don't realise, you don't get told that as women as well, that you can try and push the trauma as much as you can. So for my last two births, I was induced and I think that's where what kicked it off is that I had no control or power. They took all the power from me. They were controlling the contractions and everything. And so you go into yourself and I started having flashbacks while I was giving birth and even after giving birth, it probably 30 minutes, 40 minutes after. Now you won't know, he says, that you're just not there still. So this guy's in your life for over a year that is abusing you. He's raped you, he's ennily raped you as well. He's done some horrific things and you're only a six-year-old kid. It's sad to think that nobody's seen anything, nobody was looking for anything. People just, was this guy just such a manipulator that everybody thought he was a nice guy? Well, it was that till till saying that it was... There was definitely terror, terror signs. The way I was acting, my mum would find my pants down the back of the sofa and stuff like that and I would get into trouble for it. So when they started ennily raping me, it's awful but I would have poo in my pants and I'd be absolutely terrified that I'm going to get in trouble again for having my pants down the sofa. So I would have to go and wash them in the sink myself. There's all these things going on. He's not noticing that a six-year-old kid is in the bathroom washing poo out of the pants. When did it come to an end with him? Did he not go to prison? Did he not kill someone? He did and that's the reason that he left our home. It's not because anybody intervened or any professional took an interest. He murdered someone who stabbed him 47 times, which is horrific. Did ever threaten you because in the book it was always trying to be nice. There was never any violence towards you. Would you ever beaten her anything? That's when it changed. Up until the actual rapes, he was lovely. Even the abuse, he made it nice. You were being comforted, lying on the sofa together and having a snuggle. Watch Top of the Pops, which was my favourite thing in dance. You loved dancing or watched your dance. I did like a teddy boy's skirt, a teddy girl's skirt. I was spinning around and started stripping off and they did the same. It all felt normal again because you've got no reference of you. If you're in that environment and some adult who you trusted is telling you to do these things, you do them. He won me over that way. I just thought it was all normal. I actually craved that attention. I didn't have my dad or anything. Getting the attention was nice then. When the rape started, especially the annual rapes, that's when he would be vicious and nasty. Did you ever try and tear anyone? I didn't know how to tell anyone. I didn't know what was happening. My way of telling people was grabbing hold of my mum's ankles and screaming and begging her not to go because I didn't know what it was, what was happening. I just knew it was nasty and I didn't like it. She ended up coming out of your leaf because it killed someone? How did that happen? I can't remember exactly, but he was convicted of manslaughter. He got given three years, but he only served a year and a half. Ffarmata? Ffarmata, yeah. That's the thing. All these non-season sex cases are all protected. They get lesser sentences in everybody. I know that they're all protected in prison. They should be let in with the normal. Any prisoner that should be free for all, they shouldn't be protected. How can you be protected? Abusing kids? How can you be protected if you're raping kids and killing kids? Ffarmata, they should bring back hanging. They genuinely should because they say there's no way they can change their mind. If you've got those tendencies, they can't change their mindsets. I know in America they castrate them, but ffarmata, if you're doing those crimes, if you're willing to hurt a kid, you should have the death penalty. You should have your head chopped off. That's the only way to keep kids safe. Even the thing with Balenciaga's on the news that promoting pedophilia, promoting bondage in kids, the sex cases, even when you get into as dark as Hollywood, the things that go on is unbelievable. It's right in front of your face when people are buying into it and we want to talk about Walsmith slapping people at the Oscars, we want to talk about all the other shit that kind of deflects away from what's actually really happening, life in the important thing, child trafficking, everything that goes on. There's so much shit that goes on in this world that's swept under the carpet. When you start seeing all this, does that trigger a lot of things in your mind to this day? It's the same thing as that social workers letter again. The mind bet is there, but everyone else wants to focus on what they expect rather than the actual real reality of what's going on. It's too difficult for people to look at, isn't it? See when you go to prison, when he goes to prison, was your life so messed up then as a kid, or were you just trying to get back into your normal life because you were about seven, eight years old? How did you then go on with life when he was in prison? My mum would take us to see him in prison, it's not like he's gone from your life. We still went to see him. When he did get back out again, I was about nine when he got out. He'd lie at your side trying to get on with life and everything. I just remember coming down from school one day I opened the front door when he was standing there. I just refused to go in her, so I screamed. It was absolutely chucking it down, it was thunder and lightning and everything, but I ran over to the park. I thought I'm not going in there with you in there. I thought my mum would come looking for me, but she didn't hear me. I was actually really scared then because I know there was a good soul of him and a bad soul of him. I thought you don't know which one you're going to get. Me speaking up and saying, look I'm not going back in there and he was asking why. I said because I don't want them things to happen again. The mad thing about that situation is he said, okay, come on, come back in the house. So we'll go back in the house and he never physically touched me again, but it's not from that day, but then that makes me think it's more thought as in Warden and I'll just say that earlier then. They're very clever at manipulating you to feel like it's your fault that these things have happened because all you have to do, Dela, is say, don't want to do that. So then you carry that guilt then from being a kid to it must be my fault, but so he was still in our lives from then so the probation actually did write to social services and say look this man's just come out from stabbing someone 47 times, shouldn't be in home with kids and we're going to go and talk to the mum and say are her kids okay and we'll tell her Terry's background and to check that the kids haven't been, Dela hasn't been sexually abused. I just think it's your three years too late mate. That's been going on for the past, since the first coming we're talking about 1982 now. When did they eventually go out your way for good? So then the probation did move him to a probation hospital. They spoke to my mum whether she knew her back before and she was ignoring it, I don't know, but boy now she definitely knows and it doesn't stop her taking us to go and say he's providing us with a hospital and again no one in that hospital thinks there's anything wrong with it. So your mum's taking you to a sex offender's hospital a guy who's writing you who's been in prison for murder but your mum's still taking you to see him. What was your mum's mind? Was it even the murder? You keep your kids back from mum with some fucking serious chars? Never mind. Did your mum know all the others? She must have boy then. A sad man. Was it still when you were going back to his little hostel after that, was there nobody seen anything like any social workers, any parole officers, nothing there to stop it? No. But again he had stopped abusing me by this point. He got it to girlfriends then. But in your mind you just think you don't know when it's going to happen again. Just because he says it's not going to, you don't know. So you're always along guard and still trying to be really nice to him to get the nice terry. But at that time you had a girlfriend and she was pregnant and my last memory of seeing him was social services helping him set up a home a nursery in a masonat ready for this baby come on. She's scared to think what would happen when the baby came. Do you know what I mean? See when you when did you, when was the last time you ever seen him? So that would be about 1984 and the only reason for that was because mum had got reek into the relationship which had with someone in Colwyn Bay in North Wales. So we were all caught off there for three months because this was going to be the next best relationship she's ever had. But actually that was the best time I ever had as a kid because for three months we were in Colwyn Bay living by the seaside. The man was actually one of the nicest people we've ever met. His family were lovely and I wish we'd have stayed there because public could have been good from that but she lasted three months and brought us back to Birmingham. When did you realise that what was actually going on? Like you say as a kid you don't know because you've never seen that thing you've never done any of that thing but what age were you when you realised that I've been getting raped here or I've been getting abused. What age did it sign Ken? So when we came back from Wales so I'd already been abused by a family member at this point but I didn't realise what that was either and again that was around the same time as my dad left so this was all going on. So when we came back from Wales this family member had someone complaining about him to the police and so the police came to visit us so 112, this other girl's 12 that put the complaint in and the police come and because this girl's in care the way the police frame it is she's a bit of a tartler isn't she and she's flirting and the police were talking about her as if it was all her fault and she'd led this person on so I'm thinking I've gone up I ain't saying anything I'm talking about her right and I'm talking about me like that so those things that happened were definitely on because the police were involved now but at the same time I'm shutting my mouth and not saying anything Who was the family member that started abusing you? Was that your step dad or something? That was lighter, I had that as well So it's been non-stop darkness every man that's come into your life there's never been any protection there's never been any love Who was the first family member? So it was one of my mum's brothers Your uncle? Sick fuck man How long did that last? It was just one incident So seeing you again through that life then how do you then build any sort of trust with any man Do you still struggle with that now? Yeah I do but on the flip side of that all my boundaries have been smashed so if someone can be lovely to you then you can absolute bastard and then be lovely again and you'll do what you can to get the lovely bit so your time relationship is a while longer than you should do Yeah narcissistic stuff You get love bummed The bank robbers in Sweden when they took them hostage they were loving them saying they're giving them food taking them away, being nasty but the hostage is falling in love with them Stockholm sent him So have you had a relationship that's all been disastrous Were you not with someone who was 19? When I was 13 yeah And did you feel pregnant with them? When I was 14 yeah But again people were accepting it wasn't it wasn't as bad as it is now which is a good thing but back then 13, 14, 19 people kind of just turned a blind eye to it Did it? Absolutely and so yeah I got pregnant and I got six to eight weeks started having me all bad pains to hospital and it turns out I had an ectopic pregnancy You felt pregnant again at 15? and that was with a different man who again was older so again the family your mum and that liked him as well did they not? Yeah I mean the first one he was openly violent even in front of my mum openly he would hold me up the role by my neck throwing me downstairs I was covered from head to foot in bruises and the one day she was there and she saw him doing this but all he had to say was your mum's fit I'd do her and she was like she'd focus oh my god this man might fancy me rather than he's just batted your daughter Yeah so there's a lot of neglect there as well for your mum and not a like you say she struggled with her mental health was not trying to hear the shit her down as well but it's still sad to think that She was trying to find love in her life which is really sad but she was looking in all wrong places Do you think that was yourself as well as you started getting older looking for that father figure that love to kind of try and take away your pain but they seemed to have enhanced that So did you have your first kid at 15? So yeah so got pregnant again at 15 that's my oldest daughter now and so I was with her dad and I had James when I was 18 with him for 11 years and again he was violent he was a womanizer he would openly flirt in front of me and I had literally no self-esteem Even when you were at school as well did the teacher not abuse you or take photos of you as well? In junior school yeah it's just like everybody he saw all the men around you it doesn't matter whether they're professionals whether they're family but do you think potentially maybe not as extreme as you went through in life but do you think this happens to a lot of girls where so much badness happens to them they just kind of block it out and forget like I say it takes a lot of bravery to come forward and speak about it or the magic of retiring and I spoke in the car and I said do you ever feel that you ever get bursts of happiness or do you ever feel happy but it's hard if you've been through so much trauma so much darkness, so much pain to then see the world in a good place How do you think this can happen to a lot of people where they don't they're maybe too scared to come forward Yeah, without a doubt because audience start talking to it about it until 2007 from it's a couple of decades and for men apparently it takes a lot longer so yeah, people do try and push it down and some people never talk about it ever and they take it to the grave of them Yeah, this is the thing that happens to a lot of men as well and it takes them longer because they would rather just put it to the side but with the school teacher who was that? Is he still alive? I don't know but he was he loved to take pictures of kids and he would get me to pose for him he'd take general pictures of all of us he'd take us out on field trips and stuff he would take us to his house once and he would send me stuff for the post I was collecting stamps and stuff so he had my home address he would send me stamps through to the home he'd take these pictures and it'd be like posing your hand behind your head looking over your shoulder and stuff I was in my last year at junior school so I was 10, 11 you don't get kids to pose like that do you? It's just fucking scary to think that there's so many teachers, so many nursery teachers that had a young girl who was an ASX here she served 12 years listening for a bad crime as well she beat up the women who was working in the nursery who was abusing 9-year-old kids I saw a clip of that and was that what's her name? that nursery worker I'm sure she's one of the ones that's trying to name she's changed it twice now so see when you're going through your life and all these dark relationships and being abused your whole life like was there ever any happy moments after your kids born was there any other men that come into your life were nice to you and gave you some hope or did you always be skeptical that they could be manipulant you? there was only ever one and that was someone from Manchester and so I used to work in a call centre and I met him over the phone and I think that relationship worked because he didn't live close to me and I could keep, separate my family and see him at weekends when the kids went to the dads and so that worked for me but and he was nice, he was never manipulative or anything like that but it was just never going to work it was too far away and stuff but I don't think I've never had a decent relationship you know in 2007 was the first time you spoke about it what gave you the strength to do that? so after I'd had my last baby and so I had my son in 2004 I was induced for that and I had flashbacks it was horrendous but after I went home I could shut it off again it was absolutely fine when I had my daughter in 2006 was it 2006 or 2007? 2006? you were said you said 2004 before he was born in 2002 yeah so I had Charlie in 2002 he was induced for that one and I had flashbacks it was horrendous but when I got home I put it all away and then I had Ellie in 2006 that time I couldn't shut it off the memories that were coming back they were so powerful while I'm giving birth all I'm being told is you're a little whore, you're a slaggy deserve this and everything and I thought it's okay when I get home we'll all be put to bed again it was just like the ground had opened up this time and everything was coming back and I'd constantly have nightmares, flashbacks body pains like I've never experienced before thinking something really wrong with me but it's not as your body remembering going through those waves and so I had Ellie in July June sorry by the time I came to Christmas I was suicidal I thought I can't do this so I had to go for counselling so I went for counselling and then that's how in 2007 they said to me as part of the counselling I thought it's something I've never thought about before but if you're going to be there in my year we'll do it so on the day on the day it turns out that this cancer wasn't available which side do you want to carry on and I thought I'm ready for it now so on the day I'm on my own and two police officers turn up so I'm not going to talk to them I'm not going to tell them everything I want to tell them because I've got no support and it's two male officers so I'll give them the bare minimum stuff because it happened in West Midlands anyway we're going to have to pass it over I'll chase them up about a month later still haven't heard from West Midlands police and then I didn't contact them again they didn't contact me and that was it, no one got in touch What were you thinking then? No one cares and it was like when I went to school so I'd had the ectopic pregnancy at a Catholic school and if you wanted to talk to anybody it was a priest you had to talk to and I remember going back to school after having a miscarriage and saying breaking down in class like I'm in bits so they sent me to see one of the priests and I thought do you know what I'm just going to tell them everything now so I told him about being abused told him about being raped told him about losing a baby and I hope I'm not coping because I was disgusting for swerking about such awful things and I should shut my mouth and never speak about it again Do you probably a sex case? Do you not mean that dirty old man as a kid we should be protecting kids of our future man and it's just hard to hear that all these scream outs for help and I was talking about Barbara O'Hare who was released about the hospital who sent her off as crazy I hope they believed her, she was a fantasist and it just came to light 10 years ago 15 years ago as she was telling the truth man doctors were experimenting on the kids she was an MK ultra killing the kids, raping the kids kids as young as three and four the sick individuals out there where it's satanic shit it's wrong in many levels this goes not from this goes people from right to the top higher people it's sad that when did things start moving forward where you thought ok I'm not going to quit here because if you're telling your story again in 2007 if you've spoke to a priest and they've knocked you back and don't open your mouth keep everything shut when do you lose hope do you know what I mean where did you get the strength to keep going so after that counselling in 2007 and I thought I've reported to the place there's nothing else I can do now I've done everything in my power giving it to the people that should do something with it then that bothered so I'm just going to have to try and build a life so I went to uni to war at uni and I did a health and social policy course which was like sociology and psychology the law and things like that so I started to think you know what I can build a life for myself get a career look after my kids don't need a man got to my third year and you just, it's constantly you like snakes and that did you get so far up and you're back down again you get so far up or a life built on quicksand you get so far and everything just goes again so I'm trying to juggle two kids by myself going to uni it was all just too much and it ended up feeling depressed you don't realise your whole life you've had PTSD and so it just got too much and I had to give that up then so I took time out of it and thought what else can I do so I started working with ex-offenders that had just been released from prison like volunteering to help them get them resettled it always said to them don't ever give me a sex offender because I may not be working with them so I actually enjoyed doing those things in the football do you know what the people that I went to for counselling were amazing so I'm going to go back to them which is Rosa in Rugby and see if I can train with them and I can work with people that have been through exactly what I have and so I've trained with them to be a counselling support worker absolutely loved it but I didn't realise I didn't know what was happening and a lot of words I'd never heard about before so I didn't know about PTSD I thought it was just soldiers that got that I didn't know about somatic memories like so body memories I didn't know what was going on with those there's a whole new word coming out that I'm training so as I started to see people I'd start getting real bad pains like bent over pains when I had to go and do my sessions with them and I realised and you know what you're doing really traumatising yourself every time you're getting there listening to other people's stories so I had to so I was doing that I was also involved in the counselling cause because I was going to train to be a full-time counsellor at the same time unfortunately I'm in a real strong position here I've got my life sorted and I know where I'm going now I'm going to go back to the police again because all that I come out with several and people are talking more openly now about abuse and that stuff so yeah so I thought I'd go back and I'll report again so I did and it was actually a really really good positive experience this time it was a woman officer, she listened, she believed me she did the video evidence and she said this is so important that I'm going to take it to Aston this afternoon and tell them what's going on unfortunately it's the first time ever that someone actually believed me and listened and acknowledged how important it is so I thought everything's going to go off now we're going to get somewhere another three months nothing, so I had to contact them again and it's West Midlands Police every time they're just so slow with these things so eventually the officer from West Midlands Police gets in touch and so we arranged to do another achieving best evidence thing and she says to me because we know who Terry Price is but that's not his name now he's called Robert McEwen and I didn't even think that was a thing I've never heard of that before and I thought to you know who that's funny that is because sometimes you try and do you know like you've got things like friends reunited and Facebook and everything I tried to find him because I thought I want to know what his life is like now and if he's got a family and I could never find him I didn't know reports from him or anything and that's probably why because he's changed his name so that was the first time I'd ever heard of them changing their name and I said to her but has he gone on and had relationships and he's got kids and she thought I can't tell you when you hear that so that was the first instance I've heard of them changing their names and then so that's 2015 it takes to January 2017 for them to charge him because he plays a mental health card all the time and he's in and out of mental hospitals so he was saying he was not fit to plead at this time so they're just had to wait it out and eventually they were able to charge him so that's January 2017 so in April he goes to Magistrate Court and this is something I never explained to you that it has to go to Magistrate first and it'll be up to the crime court so I'm waiting I couldn't sleep the night before because it's such a build-up waiting like two years for this nearly couldn't sleep, pacing the room and everything waiting for the witness care to get back to me when they phoned me and they said oh we didn't go ahead today and like I don't know this system what do you mean he didn't go ahead today oh we've not been able to do it because he's changed his name like are you actually fucking kidding me like what do you mean he's changed his name oh he's Mr Mack now so he can't enter a plea he can't because the paperwork's not in his name so you're letting a sex offender take control of the whole show here he's laughing at you he's making a mockery of the justice system he's wasting tax-paid money and now you're letting him have control over me again did you feel that? what was it like when you found out you'd get charged a fairly odd deal didn't it that was amazing because I didn't think I would ever get that day but they phoned me I was in hospital waiting to have some tests they don't ask you will like to take this call or anything you're in the writing room trying to listen while they're telling you such important information I think once you're in the system you're just you're just part of it this is about you and your life and I think they really should understand the effects on their survivor but you're just part of this and they don't care did you see him and go up? what was that like for the first time seeing him maybe he raped you at six years old I'm sorry I have to laugh at this bit because what's it like seeing him when they allowed him to wear a big black curly wig I mean what the fuck why? so he... I was going to have screens in the court as you can do but they said he's not here he's not physically he's going to be on the monitor on the TV and I thought well that sound then I don't need to have the screens or anything I'll just stand in the witness box so he's there on the big massive telly in front of me and it's like a clown wig a big black curly clown wig and I'm just thinking are you having me on? this is a court and they're allowing you to do that and he did it so that I wouldn't recognise him but why are they allowed to do shit like that? so that was the first time I saw him and I literally had to laugh but like the boy of the court is doing this because they got me on at the very end of the first day and that's what I saw with him but the next day anyway it carried on as normally took his wig off and everything by then they bring back a lot of emotion a lot of hate, a lot of rage seeing him again for the first time? yeah it did and now even now I've still got his image in my head now so everywhere I go so I couldn't travel by myself I have to have someone travelling with me because you just see him everywhere so see how long did the court case last? so it lasted for four days how hard does it get a conviction if something is so old a six year old black no DNA how do you get a conviction from something like that? really difficult because it's your word against theirs but like you say I had the evidence in black and white that he was saying it as things in my medical records that showed so yeah and also so now they can bring bad character references in so he's Barrister was trying to say no we're not going to go down that route but we managed to argue that and the police were able to bring in his bad character what about his previous convictions you can't use that in a court case but what are the previous that he have? so he was actually at that time currently in prison because of abusing the girl after the four days what you thinking you thinking I'm going to get a result here or you thinking he's going to win his case and then people then make you out a liar fantasist whatever it is the same as Barbara then your life is completely in turn boils if you've made it all up in your head old emotion that must have been happening that after the four days when you eventually got a conviction that what you thinking when he got a guilty just wow like I was looking at the jury and they were looking at me and going don't worry don't worry these two women on the jury we kept looking and I thought just don't take that it's lovely that they're doing that but you can't take it too hard because you don't know what the rest of them are thinking but yeah as each charge was read out and it was guilty guilty guilty like I was just holding my dad's hand and we were just crawling our eyes out but they tell you not to do that because they don't need to sway the jury but I think it's over now I think I can show a bit of emotion now can't know yeah your dad played a big part of that case because he sat by your side like as a father like to hear that and hear the stories and imagine you it must have been the end of him like for to see his daughter like having been in prison he would have blamed himself and that must be a hard thing as a father but again you were neglected as well you were put to the side you were just basically living on your own at six with a predator like but when your father sat in a court and going through it how old was your dad so he was 60 63 and how hard was that for him did he ever say sorry? yeah my dad we did we reconsolled and you could see he was heartbroken and he was so sorry and that's why he came to court every day and he held my hand and he was like we'll go through this together what about your mum at last time? I hadn't spoken to her for a long long time she won the lottery she moved us to Turkey apparently she ended up with the Turkish mafia and all this stuff she just told us all his stories apparently she'd had twins and it just got to a point do you know what I can't have nothing to do with you because you were emotionally abusive and I don't know what's wrong with you because you lie all the time so the first time I saw her was when she was understanding the trial so you went but your mum when she stood when she was on trial to give evidence she gave evidence against you did she not say that you were the one instigating it a 6-year-old but that's sad that as a mother that tells you how fucked up her head was if I'm honest but I can only speak it from what I see and that's not right how can you say a 6-year-old is instigating to get raped to get abused why was she doing that there's no excuse why she did it she did it to deflect from herself did she ever speak to you after it? I would never speak to her again she's still alive so there was never any sorry never any to be honest man it's a hard thing to put it away from any parent back if they're not feeding your soul if they're not enhancing your vibration or making you feel protected then fuck them off on it I'm a mum myself with 4 kids that makes you reflect and look back and realise how fucked up your life was so what was that feeling when she stood and did up and gave evidence to say that a 6-year-old was instigating to be raped by that time I already knew what she was and what she was about to say when she did it she just confirmed to me that I did the right thing having nothing to do with you because you've been manipulated and groomed your whole life you'd probably always want that loving problem I always went back to then get that closure I was a bad person how can you let any kid be around people do that nature and you know what they're about it's a big sentence for 22 years ago that's a big sentence that's a sentence that it should be hand out if I'm honest but when you get 22 years what are you thinking I'm thinking I'm really lucky because people don't get those sentences you're absolutely right you shouldn't have to put lucky I haven't gone through all that in the same sentence but I know how lucky I am because people just don't get those but then I'm thinking hang on a minute, I've been through all this and he's got this sentence but now we need to start looking at what he's doing about his name who else is doing this are they allowed to do it are they allowed to get new relationships are they allowed to go and work with kids so let's talk about the name changing because we've got Sarah's law Della's law is that correct is this a new law and we've also is it Deadpool or Deadpool what is that so Deadpool is what is that people are changing their names because like us in the car those Peter Polbin he'd murdered the innocent Polish girl but he'd done many murders before that change his name came to Scotland to work worked in a chapel but then the priest he was having sex with that young girl he was buying her laptops and he was getting prostitutes to the chapel so much fucker he goes on man were these people but he changed his name so it's kind of a new identity how easy it is for sex offenders to change their name too easy so you can even go through the law courts justice and it costs £45 and it will be in a newspaper and it will have your old name new name address and everything not many people are going to do that that will be something that is listed when you have a marriage break down and whatever then you've got the depot which you do online it's £15 print it off sign it get the witness to sign it that changes his name but even worse than that me and you here now could sit here and write on a piece of paper I'm now going to be known by such and such we could both sign it and that's all you need what happens when they go for jobs and stuff so once you've done this change your name this piece of paper you can use to get a new passport a new driving licence bank cards everything in your new name so when you now go for a DBS check people don't realise a DBS check is just a ticking box exercise and we think we've got a really robust safeguarding in this country so employers and everything I think so teachers being working in schools Scouts anything to do with children or vulnerable people they'll do a DBS and they'll do an enhanced DBS in that circumstance but they don't in good faith they're thinking they're doing the best and they're actually being let down by the government so they'll the person doing the filling the DBS thing out it will say have you been known by any other name mean you will say yes if we have and will supply the information but if you tick now that's it no one checks to see whether you've changed your name no one does anything without information so if you've been convicted in one name you've now changed your name and put on that thing this is your new name and now you've got all your evidence you've got your passport, you've got your driving licence and your new name you've completely cut yourself off from that past name so when you go and check now you've never been known by any other name you're getting a clean DBS check so people can just go into the radar straight away what's the best check to get for people that is all we've got at the moment is that an acro you can get as well like an enhanced check for people but it just tells you a list of convictions but not if they've got a new name there's no connection to their new name so if they've changed their name then there's no connection whatsoever so anybody can be working in schools, working in nurseries working as a priest that's sad when that's mad to think then that people can just fly under the radar do a check, you think he's safe and then you know you tell you about Clare's law and service law so people can put applications into the police but it's only as good as the name what they're giving them so again if that person changed their name and you put it in it's not linking to that person so again full sense of security you could get in a relationship with a person think people don't do that do they don't check their new partners I don't believe they were to under Clare's law nothing I think in this day and age man it's a good thing, people might think they're crazy or controlling but the stories that I've heard if anybody, a girl comes into my life I'm fucking getting that checked we can get me checked whatever it's just safer especially if I've got kids and with the women it's been on and telling their heartbreaking stories with that woman working in the nursery and abusing nine year olds it's not just men, we need to get things straight as well it's not just men, this is women also the world isn't a problem that was her name, her name was Vanessa George and she's changed her name twice already now is that how she got the job in the nursery I don't know if that's now if she's done anything previously she's definitely changed her name twice so Dela's law let's talk about this this is something you're trying to work on what's this? so it is to stop convicted sex funders being able to change their name completely I believe in human rights and all that but there comes a point where if you're a convicted sex fender there's a certain march you've got to forego why do you think they're protected so much? there is so many people in the system isn't there like any police officers are getting done for it how many judges it's a mild dominated society and there are these people in high places the same one in every 30s you get paid a few tendencies it's one in every street every family's got them whether you want to believe it or not every football team that's everywhere again the football team there was that big story about Barry Bilal he changed his name I scare it you think man a lot of people don't like polygraph tests this and that but if you can get a rough idea people take a polygraph test before they work with kids and just say people can pass it but it does give you a rough idea in the 90% whether they're telling the truth or not why not just do it anyway it's better being safe than sorry if they feel that test then listen you ain't the right to work with kids it would be all done to money that's too expensive this is the issue we've got right now Sarah Champan has been working with us so I'm an ambassador for the safeguarding alliance and when I been through that trial I started researching it and I found this of a petition because I'd put a petition out and I found them that they had pretty much exactly the same petition so we got in touch with Emily from the safeguarding alliance and they'd been campaigning for the past year before me but they were doing it from a statistical point in research so we joined forces so I had my lived experience she's doing it from a research perspective joined forces and we suddenly started getting media attention and did a report with Scotland news people are actually starting to listen and that eventually led to a petition but you think a petition like that you would have no trouble getting 100,000 signatures it was a hard slog and we ended up with 7,000 and again, like you say people in high places shutting it down it was getting reported as a hate crime Facebook was reporting it as a spam people there was on the I don't know what website it was but we were getting reports that people were flagging up the petition and getting people to mass report it because it didn't want it to happen How did people get involved to help you with this for people who are watching? So at the moment we managed to get the government to do a review into this and look into all the different things like the DBS passport, driving licences and I thought we finally got somewhere this was June last year and they had 12 months to come back and report on it now that the 12 months is up they're saying we've done it but the information is too sensitive I'm not going to release the petition though so people can write to their MPs and say we want this petition the review released they can if they go on to the safeguarding alliance and look for the research it's all there, what we've done where we are now, how they can help I think people just need to get into the heads what an issue this is and how long it's been going on so you know Ian Huntley he changed his name to Ian Nixon to get the caretaker job at the school where we killed Holly and Jessica what he did then was reverted back to his original name once he got the job and that led to the Bishard inquiry in 2004 so they've known about this since 2004 that this was flagged up the name change loop hole in that report so it's 18 years later now and it's still going on how was it writing your book how did it bring back a lot of emotion or was it a release? it was a release, it was one of the best therapies I've ever done what was the idea behind it? to get it out there into the general public because people don't know so see when you're writing that how long did it take? two years you just came back and forth with it and who helped you with it? so Linda Watson Brown is my ghost water she's actually from Scotland she lives in Angus, she's amazing you're going over that though that there's a lot of sleepless nights to raise but you know working with her she's worked with so many survivors she knows what she's doing, I knew I was in safe hands and even to this day she's helped me with the book her job's done now she can sit back but she doesn't, she's constantly behind me constantly pushing me working people by the book Amazon, Aster, Waterstones we will leave the link in the description for anybody I struggle to know but what advice would you have for them? to find someone that you can trust and talk to because the more and more you keep it in you're just hurting yourself yeah how do you feel like coming on and telling your story and repeating it, does it bring back a lot of emotions is it tiring, as you just spoke about it quite often now what do you feel? yeah it's tiring and you know I have to take time out probably for a couple of days after you get back up and you do it again and I'll do it again and I'll keep doing it until this law has changed how far do you think you're away from getting this law changed? I think we're really close I think once I release that report the public will see how bad it is and they're going to have to do something about it because I know you're what is it, Sarah? Sarah Champion Sarah Sands she killed the pedophile she killed the pedophile she abused three of her sons stabbed them, she'd done three and a half years then they doubled her sentence they did you should be getting rewards for that I don't condone violence, I don't but I do condone that these people are never going to change that man had 24 convictions before for child abuse and he changed his name she's done everybody a favour that's what her sons are but it's so hard because the sentences are so lenient a guy got caught with half a million worth of images and only got community service but how can you download so many images and just get a slap in the wrist I get six one from Berlin prison here for a driving of ends so many people get so less sentences and that's why they just keep recommitting there's no thing in place for them to be scared off well there's not and even if they did and if they got a short sentence come out changed and then start again anyway seeing you started coming forward and telling your story how many other people then came forward to then tell their story so I've had a lot of people contact me I'm not going to tell you their stories because that's a place to say it but people from one man in Ireland came, abused girls over there came over to Liverpool changed names started abusing again I've had families where their children have been murdered by people that have come out and changed their name it's just it's endless I could send you a list of cases where do you go here then for the future where how do you go forward what's the plans the plan is to just keep on talking anyone that will have me I'll go everywhere shout at it schools are you allowed in schools to tell those sort of stories they probably wouldn't know but so just two days ago I was at university people that are trying to be in the police so services, teachers a bit of sex education over at the school they've got some mad shit you've got drag queens reading nursery stories it is quite dark but if you're a kid at school six, seven years old all the stuff that you've been through you never know what it was if somebody comes in and tells it in a lighter way to help kids to then because if it's never happened to you I suppose don't realise this sort of stuff that goes on because the amount of years I've done now over 300 I just know how that the world can be and like I said with that man who was a copper I questioned that why would you want to do that job part of me thinking why would you do that job I've got kids and it made a sense when he says look man when I've done the first job he says I'd saved a kid so how can I walk away and know what's going on because he'd done it for 20 years he went through it because his mental health worked he had to watch the videos he had to look at the images to pretend to be one to then build up a case to catch them he had to be calm he did say to his psychologist to start and join us he was scared that that was a possibility because he'd seen it so much when you've been through it people say people that have been through it sex abusers themselves I don't bother that story I think that's actual bullshit because when I've had my kids I'm more scared like you say with that copper oh my god what if I do that you're terrified because as a survivor myself I could never inflict that on somebody else but you do worry about because they say you're pitiful sex abusers people that have been abused can go on to abuse kids and stuff how protective do you become do you become overprotective have you got to understand okay wait a minute that is 2022 trying to give a bit of leeway how do you then try and murder your kids does that become difficult I've probably been overprotective I think my kids would probably say that but I know that so I actively try not to be but you know a lot of sleepovers they'll be at my house next to my house I can all command A yeah well I'm excellent if you're a women police officer from America I was actually a tiktok video this evening she doesn't let her kids have sleepovers she doesn't know about the parents doesn't know who's coming in and out of her house she works with abused kids and the cameras that are in shivers the cameras that are in the rooms so fucked up man that so being overprotective I believe a thing special in a stay in age book you don't obviously want to suffocate them but it can be difficult when you hear the stories and realise the extent that people go to trying to groom kids and say they don't just groom the kids they groom the parents now to get to the kids and some of these guys are in the park just to smell the kids hair they'll groom the single parents go on dating apps find out if it's a single parent they go on websites on facebook to see your problem child to see where parents are struggling with their kids they'll build up like a case with that person first and they can play it off where they've then gotten in some of them take a year or two years to they will, they'll take their time to get to where they want to get to and you say about cameras there was a teacher from my area that did exactly that, had cameras in the shower blocks and everything got convicted of that he's moved up north somewhere, changed his name there's another teacher Ben Lewis so he got convicted for indecent images he moved to Spain moved to Spain to change his name became an outpair worked in private schools he's just got done for 36 children over them that's bad I like to think what's actually going on how do you then if you're constantly working on it every day constantly trying to change the laws constantly hearing these stories that you can never move on with your life do you think you'll just constantly be working on this to then create changes and help other people that because if we know for me it's sometimes out of sight or out of mind we try and flip the chapter and move on but you're constantly working on it you've got the conviction that you so rightly deserve but how do you then try and get some peace in your life so doing the book was amazing therapy that's been great for me but but it is a struggle in you you are battling and you are getting people talking to you all the time about awful things and and I think I just have to I've always been a fighter I must have been because I wouldn't be here now if I wasn't so and what I have to do though so there's a a disconnect between Little Della and Big Della and I have to do that because I'll be so overwhelmed I think my head would just fall off so I'll do this now for Little Della and for all the kids out there that I know are suffering I've got a fight and I've got to win it and I will win it also I might get knocked back down but I'll come back for it and I might have to take a month off for a week off but I'll come back Do you still get therapy now? No Do you think for people that's maybe in that struggle as well because you've had therapy a lot how much does it help people to try and release some sort of trauma that they've bottled up for many years? It does but it's really difficult on the NHS what they're offering because it might be CBT but when you've got PTSD and you've had trauma after trauma after trauma CBT is only just going to scratch the surface not the deep enough so all daily I do need EMDR but in my area they don't offer it The other lesson for coming on today and telling your story it's brave of you for people watching the Beatles on Amazon would you like to finish up on anything? I'm just like thank you for having me here Thank you for watching everyone because we are going to win it Take care