 I think you've answered it in a sense that you answered the idea that it's something that's very deep, it runs very deep and it's very persistent, so that when that situation arises where as they tend to re-occur until we can really see what's going on, that whenever the situation arises where I want it to be different, then I want it to be different than it is than just to remember, to bring it back and remember that it's a perceptual problem. When that was going on, I remember thinking that it could be a great opportunity for experiencing something other than that, and feeling like it would be so helpful to have some experiences of being in environments where externally it seemed active and noisy and not what I have considered conducive to maintaining a still mind. Because I can say that there is a way to be at peace regardless, but without having experientially knowing what that feels like, it's just talking about it. So if we take that idea that you've just mentioned of experiential versus talking about and we bring it back to our fully encounter or coming together right now, what are their unresolved problems or situations or uncomfortable thoughts that you can get in touch with that kind of like a free association kind of thing? Right now. So you want me to just kind of just spew out what my thoughts are right now, even if it doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything. Well, I have a thought and some consciousness of taping this and wanting to just completely ignore it and just be here in dialogue with you as we've often been when we weren't taping it and just let it flow and not be self-conscious. I guess I'm feeling self-conscious. Maybe we can go into that, explore that. Self-conscious you're feeling, maybe you feel a sense of uneasiness or something with the recorder going. If you go into that, what is the uneasiness about? Usually when we're just discussing and dialoguing, I'm just thinking about the thoughts in a sense. I'm thinking about only, you know, what we're talking about feels like, though I'm sure there's distractions, but it's like I feel like I'm able to really give my attention to that. And I noticed that with the microphones set up and so forth that I'm not nearly as attentive and only attentive to what we're saying to each other. So if you bring that back to the subject-object split that we're talking about, it does come back to the belief that I'm a person, you're a person, and we have had these dialogues or discussions in the past that seemed a certain way, seemed to be very attention-focused and so on and so forth, and that somehow the microphones or the recording equipment is making something different. In my mind, not that that's doing it, but obviously there's something going on in my mind that I would think that it's different. It can get down to this thing about recording or videotaping or even the belief that it would be different if there was a third person here, that the dynamics would change. There are different dynamics with three people speaking than there are with two of us speaking. There's just so many subtle ways in which the subject-object split can manifest itself in the sense that those are beliefs. You really believe that it's different than it was for this, that there's a different factor added on now, so to speak, and in believing in that factor then there's the tension, the tension gets focused on it or sometimes distracted on it and away from it, away from the, just that intention to come and to cut through things. Anything else that you feel like, when you feel self-conscious about that, is it the sense of something that you, you feel a sense of censorship to what you say when it's on tape as opposed to when it's not on tape? Maybe I'm just more aware that it could be helpful if I was as clear as possible in my speaking. So I guess I am trying to be more attentive and perhaps censoring what I say and how I say it. Perhaps it would be helpful if we kind of reframe the whole thing then in terms of that's an exploration, you know, as a sense of our words that we speak are helpful to us in this cutting through the deceptions and distortions and getting in touch with what we believe in. So often beliefs are unconscious. We don't aren't consciously aware of everything that we believe is kind of like beliefs have been built up. There's a belief system in operation and there's a lot of assumptions and premises that are tied into that and if we use this dialogue as an exploration of that it's even something that you can go back and hear yourself or the technique of like someone looking in the mirror and for instance noticing how tired their eyes look or how they look that they weren't aware of and can help bring an awareness to something that's going on or something that's much deeper. In that sense this is not a taping session for someone else but it's for me, you know, it's just another tool that I can use. I mean I noticed that it feels different to me if I think that I'm the only one who's going to hear this tape than if I think, you know, this is going to something that's going to be, you know, shared with other people. That's a good point because that really gets into the subject-object split and it gets into the self-concept. You know, it's saying that there is a world outside of me, outside my mind that's apart from the personhood who I am and that my identity is very wrapped up and tied up in that, in that environment, in those other people that I call friends or queens and so on and so forth and that other people may hear this, you know, what the thought, the self-conscious thought is, you know, what will they think of me? You know, what are my words accurate? It's almost like trying to live up to a standard or put on a front, you know, to be a certain way, whether it's a spiritual front or it's just an image of myself that I feel I want people, how I want people to see me and everything and that needs to be questioned as well. To think that all my editing stuff kicks in, you know, I think, you know, that there are ways of saying things that are much more helpful and much clearer than other ways and so it's like, I think I'm mentally editing myself as I speak, thinking that if I do that, it would perhaps be clearer and more helpful and so forth. Just train in observing words and observing behavior. The whole point of our discussions is to bring it back to the mind and to get in touch with thinking that appears to be backwards or reversed or distorted to your base thinking and that a sense of relaxation, in the sense of it, it's not so important what these behaviors are in these words but to really have a connection of minds is to really start to look at the ideas and everything and that's what we're doing. That subject-object split runs very deep and it covers so many things and just to start to see that, to see that I'm objectifying the recording equipment or I'm objectifying this situation. So when you say objectify, you just mean that I'm making it apart from myself, other than myself. As soon as that happens, as soon as there's a subject and an object, then of course the mind has, in a sense, made up a reason to be afraid. It has to protect the small me or the self that I see as apart from the world and it sees the world as infringing on it and encroaching upon it and in a sense weakening it. For instance, with the tape perhaps being shared to someone else and someone else making comments or judgments or so on and so forth, if there is a fear of that happening, that's just a demonstration of that subject-object split. As soon as I believe that there's something outside of me, then I have to immediately click into the awareness of that and the defensiveness to protect this small self that's apart from everything else. So how do I look at that or what attitude do I have to not objectify? It's the intention. It takes a willingness to step back in the mind and to start to even begin to grasp that everything that I perceive with these eyes and here with these ears and smell and taste and touch and so forth are simply thoughts in my own mind. False thoughts. Yes, unreal thoughts. Unreal thoughts. Thoughts that are not eternal and are not changeless and are not infinite.