 We are back here on the touch line and still we are discussing matters football and everything that is happening all around the world when it comes to rugby football and that is what we are putting our major focus in. I am Robert Osoro, as usual, Max Osorozike is here with us today and also joining us here after some time is Ngaro Khamunya who is the director of 270 degrees sports marketing and consultancy for Ngaro. It's been a long time. Welcome back to the touch line. Thank you very much. I think when I was thinking about it this week, maybe it's been about two months. Two and a half months. It's good to be back. I firmly believe Saturday is all about sports. The weekend is all about sports. So it feels good to be back. I learnt something, I think it is Australia. In Australia, all TV channels and everything, they do their news and everything up to Friday. The moment it kicks Saturday, all the way to Sunday, it's all about sports. Actually from Friday. No one cares about politics and everything. It's all about sports. We go the same route as well. Is it possible? Is it practical locally? It is practical locally. Let me tell you, the two things that move the emotion of a person in this order for me is sports. Then there's basically what you can call entertainment in terms of music and film and then number three for me is politics. But I always get the feeling that because of the nature of our politicians in Kenya, you want to focus on politics as much as you can. Yes. So that you grip your people and have your people just focusing on that. Yet there are very many things to be desired out of the other two things I've mentioned. Case in point, whenever you travel a lot of town on the weekend, Saturday, Sunday, guaranteed you're going to see a sport weekly. Sure. It's either you'll see volleyball being played or some guys playing football or some guys playing netball. That's the past time that guys use. That's the past time that he's there. Yes. So sport already has that effect on our people. Yes. It's just number one, of course, our managers. You just get the feeling that the guys who get the management of sports in Kenya are using it as a bench. A stepping stone. Talking about two months ago, I have remembered when we were here, we were doing the preview of basketball. Yes. The heavy final leka. And our team won. That was my team. Yes, the heavy leka was won. Yes. You know, honestly, the people are supporting throughout the beginning, from the beginning of the season of the LA Clippers. Yes. They've been the least dominant team in LA. Yes. And then among those guys who like what we call two-way players, you know, I was thinking about it there. The football is the only sport where people are classified as per their roles. Yes. Defenders, midfielders and attackers. Yes. They are departments. They are departments, exactly. Many other sports, you do both. Yes. So you defend any attack. Yes. In rugby, it's the same. In basketball, it's that way. Yes. And to your point, I've always liked two-way players. Like players who are dominant on offense and dominant on defense. Yes. And for me, I think in the league right now, the person who exemplifies that is Kawaila. Yes. So when he moved from Toronto up to LA Clippers and then, of course, he was joined by Paul George. Yes. He was also an excellent two-way player. Yes. Patrick Beverly. I'm a guy who likes defense. Yes. Like for me, defense wins championships. Yes. So when they didn't make it to the finals, I was like... Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. I talk about basketball. I think it's the game that was popular in on locally. Yes. I think there have been efforts to restore the most glory of the sport. I don't know. What do you make of, you know, the commitment by the administrator so far? You see, the reason why basketball, and we're talking about maybe let's go back 20 years ago. Yes. And the reason I firmly believe that basketball was the second most popular sport. Sure. Locally after football. Yes. The biggest reason, of course, was the global reach that the game had. Yes. You had the most iconic athlete in the world, not only in America, in Michael Jordan being a basketball player. Everyone wanted to be like him. We were talking... I mean, we were laughing the last time we were here how the impact that Jordan had in terms of to date you go to Akiniwa. The influence is so massive. We knew Jordan. We knew him. Actually, that name came as a result of him. Yes. Because of the ball. Yes. You see, you know, they won't know who Michael Jordan is, but they don't know what that means. So, I think it was because that was the number one thing. Yes. I mean, the game had gone global. And then there's actually ridiculous talent in basketball in Kenya. Yes. And I remember even when the late 90s, up to the mid-2000s, basketball was actually a very super thriving sport. Yes. And then, like, is always the case in Kenya. I told you that Miranda traveling to Rwanda for Afro, the FIBA Afro Basket Qualifiers and they'll be playing the likes of Senegal, Tunisia and Algeria in that one. But let's come back to our major talking point for this segment. To our running order. Yes. That was a bit of migration. Coming back to everything that we were supposed to discuss was, yesterday, breaking news was, the chairman of Kenya primary clubs are not now content with how the president is running the federation. Ya, the football Kenya president, Nick Muendwa, went for the election. He was there in the battle. He won the battle. He won the war. They voted for him. Spectacularly re-elected. Spectacularly re-elected. Like 97 percent. Ya. And the rumor me lies is that some of these delegates were given money. They were put on five stoutels, three stoutels where they stayed comfortably. And they voted for... Are they prior the polls? Yes. They voted for the agenda of president Nick Muendwa. Now, they get into the office. The president is coming on with his agenda. And they look at it and they're like, no way. It can't happen. What is wrong with us? You see what? It's a rumor about the money that they were given. It's a rumor about them being put up in hotels. But it's a rumor, I believe, 150 percent. Yes. The clubs in the nature of sports politics. Yes. I had a conversation yesterday with somebody who was talking about investing in sports in Kenya from a private perspective. This guy is South African based, but he's in Bapwe. And he was telling me how they did mandatory corporate governance courses for all the sports clubs in Zimbabwe. And he was trying to tell me that maybe if you think about bringing that to Kenya, I told him there's no way it's going to work in Kenya. It was actually brought when March set up studios in Kenya and some of the big sports runners in the country were taken to South Africa to study. Let me tell you, Robert, they came back... Every sporting organization in this country has a corporate governance guideline. Yes. But it is because of the politics that is behind the elections that goes into getting these officials in office that the corporate governance rules are turned away with now. Throw them out of the window. Throw them out of the window. Let's get back to the topic that you're talking about. Yes. Now, I don't know what this delegate is expected. Yes. You know what was going to happen. You, myself, Maxwell, yourself, were not shocked about the move that Nick Mwendoff was put. Yes. It's textbook Nick Mwendoff. Yes. It was going to happen. So when they sit down here and they start making noise about oh, this is not what you had promised us. Of course, it's an election. I will promise you. And even we can't sympathize with them. And I cannot sympathize with them. I will promise you whatever. Hey, we'll promise five stadiums. Huge parks. Yes. Ten years ago. We'll promise laptops. I will give you the promises that you want. Yes. It's like an excuse, my comparison. It's like tuning a chick. It's like hitting on a girl. Yes. Promises. You sell promises. Yes. You can say you own international life. The pledges are palatibo, man. Yes. You and Nick Mwendoff are partners. But it's not the actual case. The question is, they're talking about now going back to the, they're saying that as the Kenya Premier League, they need to have their own AGM to decide the way forward. Just put it into perspective for us. When October 20, I think when that contract came to an end and now we said that Kenya Premier League is done and it has been taken over by football Kenya Federation and it will be run under football Kenya Federation. Do these clubs have a mandate now under Kenya Premier League or that company is done? First, let it be known that KPL's powers are derived from FKF. Yes. FKF is the one who's mandated to run the game of football in Kenya. The Kenya Premier League is their crown. It's a subordinate entity to FKF. It's a crown jewel for lack of a better word. And I think that's why they privatized. And by privatized I mean forming the company to run the KPL because the truth is also at the time when the KPL was being formed the limited was being formed or the LLC was being formed, sorry, I beg your pardon. Our sports laws did not allow any sporting organization to own assets. Yes. I think they were back in 2005. Exactly. And even contract and get into intellectual property rights. Own any asset basic. Our laws, it's a sports act that has changed that but our laws did not allow for that. I think that was one of the reasons for the formation of the KPL. Osoro, you and I have covered football so much. Nongaro is coming from the background of those elite disciplines, rugby, basketball. But I don't know, how massive is football? Because we haven't witnessed a lot of back and forth, a game of musical chairs in other disciplines when it comes to management and running of the league. Like rugby where you come from, cricket, these other sporting disciplines. But football, it's been like, it's a habit, come on. First you need to accept the fact that football is the most popular sport in the country. Yes. Look at the sheer size of the number of leagues that you have, the number of tournaments that you have, the number of players that you have. Yes. Naturally it's going to have a very wide reach. Yes. Now, once you discuss that in terms of the reach, what I've come to discover is that a lot of politicians also use football for campaign. Yes. Because it has a grassroot effect. When you go to your Shags Maxwell, I bet you you won't walk a kilometre to find a football pitch. Sure. You'll have a football place somewhere. That's how, that's the reach that football has. Yes. And because of the lack of visionary leadership that we have, that we have in this country, the lack that is, then we are unable to package this potential that is there in terms of football to make it walkable. Yes. And that is the biggest. That's why for rugby, I mean, after the election, you see, during the last FKF election, there was a debate about one of the candidates and people were saying, how about Mochilo? He's coming from rugby background. Yes. He's coming from rugby, but that was not even the biggest thing. That was the story. Yes. And I remember sitting down some moment that was said and I asked, while the players can be from, what's the word, not from privileged backgrounds, the players, the management is never from such backgrounds. Think about it, world over. World right. World over. And the management being not from those backgrounds, I think is what makes football a success in other countries. When you have Kyle Hans Ruminaga as the chairman of Bayern Munich. Yes. He might have had trouble bringing him when he was at Bayern Munich. But of course because of the professional setup that Germany has in terms of football, he's able to understand these things and taking these things. And Kyle Hans Ruminaga as the president of Bayern Munich is no longer the Kyle Hans Ruminaga. He's changed. He's crossed over. Yes. From the playing side. From the tougher bringing. Yes. To now a corporate figure. Lebron James. Yes. You know he's a shareholder of Liverpool. Not too many guys know that. I think he was about 2% of Liverpool. Yes. But, same thing. He came from a troubled background. He never even finished school. I have not done it myself. Yeah. Jordan was at least. Yeah. Lebron never even finished school. Like he couldn't even afford to go to school. Yeah. But when he finishes his playing career and if he goes into ownership of management, he will have crossed over on this other side. So we need to go away in this narrative that football is a metagame and the leadership has to be metagame. And especially this theory and the entire line of football has to be administered by former players. You know it's international. It doesn't make you, you being a former player doesn't make you a good manager. A good manager when it comes to the gap. Jose Moreno. Never played football. Yes. One of the best coaches you've seen. Alex Fadasan. Was not the best player in Scotland. Yeah. By far the best manager we ever saw in England. Now the question was when this story broke out, we were on social media last night and everybody was talking. One of my friends, Francis Ngira, said this. It is high time now this chairman realize that you make a decision. You stay with that decision. You stick with that decision. We had candidates outside here. Every candidate was outside here and we said every candidate came out to this man first and all that and everybody took a stand. And they said this is the guy. Now it is his term, it is his second term. Go and do your job. Yeah. It is that time our leaders now take that stand because if Nick Mwendo come what may takes us to the greener pastures. Well and good. If it takes us to the Tatas it is the decision they made and they've got to live with it. You have to live with the decision. I mean that's life. Even as personally we have to live with the decisions that we make. Yeah. I always say that in whatever situation you are whether right or wrong in whatever bad situation you are whether right or wrong you had something to do with it. Yeah. You are a big contributor to that to you being in that situation. Yeah. And that's the case here. If football deteriorates for the next four years yeah. It will be qualified for AFKON 2021. 2021 sorry. Yes. It will qualify for AFKON 2021. Yeah. Wait guys. Didn't it go four years? No it's after every two years. Oh. World Cup is 2022 Qatar. Okay. Fair enough. It will go to every two years. Yes. We then you have another 220 million shillings candle which can't be accounted for. which can't be accounted for. which cannot be accounted for. Yeah. You have to deal with your choices of consequences. Yes. They have to they have to realize that like you said there were people who were on the ballot who probably had better manifestos but you decided to go back. But the question I keep asking myself what's the role of government in all this because it looks like the government through Minister of Sports remains silent whenever this debacle arise. Government. Is it high time they also stamp authority and crack the whip? No government should never interfere. Let it be. You are the one who made the decision. You live with it. Government should never interfere. Government should never interfere with the running of sports. Yes. It's not their mandate to do so. For them is to just put in place an enabling and conducive environment for sports to thrive. Exactly. It's not for them to interfere with the management. It's not for them to get into FKF's affairs. FKF's affairs are family in the delegates hands. Yes. And they are the ones who made the decisions and it is going to be happening to them. Let's finish that conversation and end it there. But there is one thing that you were talking with us off the camera when we were talking about the South African billionaire Motsepen. Motsepen. Yeah, who was planning to run for Motsepen. And it looks like a lot of football fans have embraced his candidacy. Come on. He is a billionaire. That goes to whether the top of being a billionaire and having management competence also are two separate things. That is a very good for some of us who want to say we need to go corporate and private investing clubs and in sports in general. You see Motsepen first, for you to have money to invest in sports you've made money elsewhere. Yes. Let's start there. I test that sports is a business and you see the potential and you're like okay fine I can invest 10 million dollars there. To get to that point Max you're a very good manager. Sure. Trust me because you're managing people. You haven't got any. You know it's not engaged. And this club is also doing very well. Yeah, it's not like Kenyan billionaires who make their money off looting funds. Fine, you might have that contract or two that favoured him but it's about he's built as well. Yeah. So he understands the money. Same thing as Muhammad Dujji Simba. Simba. In Tanzania. So the good thing about people like Motsepen getting into the management is they understand at least the business side. Me that's what I always say. Yeah. The commercial side of the sport. The commercial side of the sport. Yeah. You know we make wazungus look very good. I was looking at Anfield's layout. Like just looking at the stadium layout and they can do anything like that in Kenya. Boys say for the 40 corporate boxes they have these guys have like 10 lounges. My goodness. These are bars, these are water, these are water. You know you can go to Anfield just for a hangout. Like we live here, we want to go have a beer. Yeah. Without going to the water again. Without going to the water again. So we need the guys who understand the business aspect. It was the same thing. By the way during the Rugby Africa elections I remember having a conversation with the Don of Rugby Africa sponsor. Yeah. And they were very keen on having a Sub Saharan person at the helm of Rugby Africa because they wanted somebody who understood the commercial aspect of sports. So Patrik Mosepe understands that. Yes. And he understands business. Yeah. So maybe it's time for such people to get it. And for someone with the caliber of Patrik Mosepe is coming at the helm of African football not to gain from African football but to add value to African football. Exactly. For him it's value add. He can come to be sit down in Josie, in Jobago, wherever he is. Yeah. He can come to be sit there and leave with his bill. He's not joining football as a stepping stone to richness. He's already at Taikun. That's why Tanzania is actually beating us at the moment because Tanzania have actually embraced that commercial aspect of the game. They have copied the PSL blueprint. They actually hired someone from PSL to come and run Tanzania. He was the former CEO of Younger. He is now running the Tanzania primarily. And by there talking about it there was one of there much hype that was seen by Younger. And I saw celebrities those music called Icons Donning Jesus for different teams and Kenyans trying to say come on Kenyans celebs. This is two days ago. So one of my friends who was very keen also in the sporting space from the business perspective who were talking he has an investment banking background. He worked for Stanbik. And Muhamed Dujji was one of their clients. So basically Muhamed Dujji is like they made their wealth like bitco food products and he took over the company from his father. And what he did is that he contracted now the investment bank of Stanbik. To restructure his corporate organization. So they did that and he flew them to Tanzania for a party when it was already done. This is like 5-6 years ago. They sat down and Muhamed Dujji tells him that the next place he's going to his sports. And he tells me that this guy is an addict of there's that magazine called the business insider. He's always reading it. He's always reading it. And all he did is that he read and he saw I was even looking at a list this week by the way of their 100 the top 100 billionaires in the world 30-year sports team owners. And I think he saw that and he's like the likes of Roman Abramovich Alisha Uzmanovsia Sheik Almansoor The Glaza family I'm forgetting Dan Gilbert the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers All those guys are there. So he's like How come? And you know let me tell you he was tankronki. It's the same thing he got into Arsenal. He was really an investor in American sports. He had gone to Hong Kong. He had a baseball team. He has a football team the LA Rams. He has a basketball team the Denver Nuggets. And he has an MLS team the Colorado Rapids. So he was flying to Hong Kong for a business meeting. On his way back when he's reading his newspaper everything people are talking about is the English Premier League. Then he was wondering is English Premier League what is it? That's when he invested in Arsenal. So it's the same thing Dujit did. He looks and he's like all these billionaires what is this about sports? The sports minded. He just tailored it too. Investment he knew it was needed. He knew he was going to make the money but he just tailored it to the Tanzanian person. What attracts the Tanzanian person? So they see Diamond they see who Diamond is putting on my jersey and willing over player. Those things. And the rest is history. Because I was watching Azam I was just doing a review of Azam TV and some of the matches that they are doing with Azam. And you see as in Kenya and everybody thinks that it's younger and simple that has crowds. You go to some places like Bia Shara they have got fans on this time Costa Union. I think that people don't think that has fans they have got serious fans. On the ground pushing their team. And you're like wow. And then look at the investment the Azam owners put into the field. It's coming up with us a whole new clubhouse unit of the stadium and everything. And the moment football works I think they are showing in PSN the moment football works in your country all the other sports will flower. They will emulate on the crop because rugby and cricket were the white man sports. So they got into it first. The PSN caught up later on. Yes. But look for us guys where football is the most popular sport we have to be the pesetas but let me tell you in Kenya Right now football people are going to forget about football can tell you for free because right now you look at one of the sports that is taking Kenya by storm is golf. We have got golf being run professionally with competent people. They have gone on to the European tour and everybody is like looking and even you saw a current country club being voted one of the best destinations in the world more than the sunshine in 20th of Africa. So everybody will be like this is a place we are going to go. Rugby Rally is also coming up. Rally has come up. It's unfortunate you weren't able to have the Yeah but hopefully next year but Finias Kima is trying. Yes. Rally is doing some good work. Athletics I've seen what they have done getting the continental tour was a big thing for athletics. Hosting the world under 18 was a big thing for athletics. The under 20 years old because of the COVID-19 pandemic very bad. The problem with team sport administrators say that athletics is well managed because it's an individual sport. No problem with that. No problem with that. But let me excuse that. The top athletes we are going to be very honest. are not managed by local guys. Yes. Think about it. Supersters they are not managed by local guys. Let's finish that conversation. It is the touch ready here on Y254 I'm Robert Osoro at Y254 channel where you can find us and also let's talk about we are here with Mark so he was seeking as usual and Ngara Kamunya the director to 70 degrees. The show is not done but we are still going on with the show. We are just having fun here a little bit. Now to what some of the things we are talking about that you were to talk about in our running and keep going. ‏ To talk about the 6 nations that was played some of the results the latest result we had was England and Italy Wales losing to Scotland 7-6 France winning against Ireland by 35-27 England very big margin winning against Italy 34-5 And then we had Ireland, they are beating Italy 50-17. But also one thing that came out, big token point was the red card. Between the game between New Zealand and Australia. That red card, what is your reaction? For both teams. First just let me mention something, of course the biggest news of the Six Nations is Alan Wynne Jones, has now surpassed Richie McCaw as the most capped rugby union player, having played his 150th game against Scotland. The red card, the two red cards, in my opinion they weren't correct. And this is why, this is the reason why. Yes, our shoulder charge is a straight out red. And I think the two affected puzzles, persons was Tunga Fasi, Hofer Tunga Fasi and Lackland Winston, the blindside flank of Australia. Now, shoulder charge will always be a red card offence. But you see you have to look at how the shoulder charge happened. On both occasions, in the first one I can't remember who he was tackling, but the person did go down. So he wasn't upright, he was in an upright position. He had actually tripped or he was already on his way going. And that's why Tunga Fasi connected with the person's neck. The same to the other one, Sam Whitelock, same thing, he wasn't in an upright position, he was already going down. So Lackland Winston comes for the tackle, and then of course now connects with his neck. But now do you think these unjustified red cards would water down the quality of test rugby? And is it high time now why rugby is on the spot? No, I mean look, that law had to come into place. Because there are very many guys, you have to, you see, that's the incident. So you have to come in, somebody has to be upright. And if you look at this particular one for Tunga Fasi, the guy was already going down, the player who was tackling was already going down. Tunga Fasi has already launched for the tackle. So naturally he will hit the guy in the upper side. And the same thing for the Australian red card. And you see the Australian red card was again, because of that one was even must. But that one had too much pressure because the guy had already made a decision about the Tunga Fasi red. And therefore he had to send this guy off. But people are saying that why give the red card when you have the option of sending them to the same thing. That is what he should have done according to me. This look again, I think our viewers are watching, that's a case that is there. Look exactly that's what happened. He was already, this guy, Sam Whitelock was already going down. Yes. And Laklea Minstone comes in and connects on that tackle. So in my opinion it should have been a same thing. Just basically tell him, look be aware about what you're doing. It should have been a warranted red card. Because then when the game is not 15 versus 15, like for this guys now, both of them lost park players forwards. In New Zealand lose one of their best scrammagers in Tunga Fasi. Yeah. Australia lose one of their best fetchers in Winston and Bokare. Yeah. I don't know whether in any way these red cards contributed to the outcome of the match because it was an upset on the side of Australia beating England 24-22. That was a close call. Considering the first leg had ended I think 435. It was an upset. Sorry, it was an upset but it didn't contribute. It didn't contribute. It lost this morning to Argentina. Yes. So you see, and especially for New Zealand fans we've gotten really spoiled and spoiled by this. We had a very special class in the class of the Richie McCalls and the Dan Carter's who checked into the scene in 2001 and didn't live until 2015. Yes. So for 14 years you had the best players in the world involved in this. Yeah. So that's the biggest problem. New Zealand, they have to go through the rebuilding phase. It's the same thing with Australia going through. We are actually out of time. We only got three minutes to go but I want to talk about locally. Yes. Chisanga is rumored to be coming back and you have also... Not rumored. He's actually moved. He's going to your team. Yes. Yes. Chisanga and Emmanuel Mavala have moved to Queens from Homeboys. They are both... Of course Chisanga have played in Newcastle and both of them went and played in Poland. Yes. So for them I think, and I've talked to them about this decision, when I'm inspired to go work out, they are there because they are also trainers, professional trainers. And we have this conversation and they have told me that for them they are looking to the future. And it so happens that Queens is a very diverse network in terms of old boys and people in the Queens fraternity. So for them it was purely a future decision. They are looking towards the future. Yes. And for Queens you are having two capped Kenya players. One, two pro Kenya players. Yes. One having played in the Aviva Premiership. Yes. Bakropa excellence in Chisanga. Yes. A leader in Emmanuel Mawala. Yes. And a very good second role. Yes. So I think for Queens it's a plus and then plus they are a new coach. Yes. And I am hoping that it's a shot in the arm for of course some big bias. The new coach I was referring so far. Yes, Antoine Plasma. He's doing a good job from what I've heard from the players. There's a lot of fitness required. The problem in Kenya is that we always want to go for the man. We always want contact. Yes. Zagbi has changed now. It's about playing the space. It's about if you need to go to contact then go into contact. But it's always about playing the space because at the end of the day what are you trying to do, you're trying to advance beyond the game line. So I hear he's brought in a bit of that which requires then a skill set. Good thing about Queens I'll be honest with you is that if I was talking to one of the KCB stalwarts and Kenya stalwarts, Oliver Mangiani, telling me that you know what Queens has is a skill set. It's incalcated into the Queens player in terms of that. So I'm hoping to see with this thing about playing the gap and not the man. And me I'm a big fan of playing the gap. And last time you missed out on playoff, finishing this turn 9th with 28 points. We were in problems. Queens has been going through a transition phase. Issues that of course I cannot talk about here but Queens has been going through a transition phase that required them to go to the bottom pits to discover themselves. So it comes to the end of the touch and here. I think we will continue this discussion next Saturday. Hopefully not available. One hour man. We need to do something with the rag. We need to do something serious with the rag. No problem. As it comes back. Special thanks to you Ngaro. Thank you very much for having me. It's always been a pleasure. Maxola Sika as usual is here. And it's a special thanks for everybody on the Tatra and crew as managed to get this production as such as Tunasema, as Santisana. Enjoy the happiest Diwali this afternoon for me on Y254. Good afternoon and enjoy the rest of your viewing.