 Podcasts around table round 132. I think exclusive podcast and Oxymoron question mark. I don't know. We're gonna find what to talk about is Can you be exclusive and be a podcast? I don't know. Let's find out. Let's meet the round table first up We have a static image, but maybe I'll just jump right in Daniel J. Lewis. Welcome back Thank you. I am enjoying the benefits that You know the reverse benefits instead of the IRS asking me for iTunes gift cards Apple has offered me iTunes gift cards Wow, I wish Wow I'm quite distracted by a little box in my in the corner. There's now telling me Hangouts is going away So like officially they're telling me that however, it's just they're just going to the quick streaming thing I imagine they'll still be doing this But anyways, we won't go there Dave Jackson. Welcome back. Yeah, Dave Jackson from the School of podcasting calm Awesome, Paul. Welcome back. Thank you sir t-shirt week. Is it t-shirt week? I got a new t-shirt It doesn't have anything on it so the logo is not good enough to put on t-shirt. I tried so and that you can have a coaster School of podcasting coaster. It's related. All right. Hey, and all the way from across the globe Stephanie welcome. Hey, thank you. I'm excited to be on here for the first time Where are you exactly? I am in Shanghai, China Amazing. She's in the future literally my whole day. Yeah, it is a 730 in the morning over here. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much We've been trying to get on you for get you on here for a while and I'm glad we were able to finally do it It's a little hard when time zones are so dramatically different but Keeping that international flair going here. I'm so excited by that and this might be our farthest reach I feel like maybe China one other time, but I don't know. We'll have to look I think Heather might oh no wait Heather might be closer to you actually Where is she? Yeah, she's in New Zealand. Oh All right. Yeah, we're doing good. We're doing good to go just like podcasting. We're all around the world But we're gonna close those little worlds up shove them in a box and make you listen to a podcast on one platform is That a podcast we're gonna find out there was some rumor a leak Someone's probably in trouble. They're NDA violated. We saw some so saw some reports that Apple may start investing in I don't know. Would you call it original podcast? Are they gonna create? Are they gonna pay people to create podcasts? Are they just going to purchase podcasts and then make them only be on Apple? What did you what did you hear? What did you read Paul? There was several of these reports Well, you know reports and you know, they happen a lot in the podcasting space Yes, so take each of them with said grain of salt. Yeah, I heard Apple's gonna spend some money on some some You know custom stuff to them and that's about all that was heard and it would be interesting to see what happens Yeah, if it actually happens. I mean it, you know, people say it makes sense Spotify. It's a It's a rebuttal to what Spotify is doing who they sort of came crashing into the space Spent a ton of money They're creating they're they're essentially paying podcasters to be on Spotify Only we've got luminary launched and it is I mean it's even more than I feel like that It's not only exclusive to luminary. It's behind a paywall Spotify stuff not necessarily I don't think with their gimlet purchases it purchases and and anchor and all that stuff And then where else where else we've seen a stitcher has they got into their own content, right in the past They stuff that you could I guess was probably like a stitcher premium thing Do we think what do we think? I mean, I don't like to just It's better to have facts, but we could just making up stuff what we think Maybe we should just go with if it does happen or you think it's more likely people are Are kind of saying oh my god, you know, this is how they're gonna do this They're gonna work it into Apple TV and all this stuff and kind of like hinting that it might be a premium option I I don't feel like it's a premium play so much as it's a be on an Apple podcast play. What do you guys think Daniel? Well, all that we really know at this moment is the rumor that someone leaked that Apple is interested in Investing in some original podcasts. I don't think we even necessarily know whether that means Exclusivity sure let's pretend it's both, right? Let's pretend that it there. I Actually, I just want to know what you think. I don't think they would lock it behind a paywall anyone else agree with that or who thinks different I would go with there probably be a variety of things There might be a paywall for some of them There might not be for some and there'd be all the rest of the podcasts that already exists on Apple podcasts I think a rainbow is highly possible. I Think look at what Apple is already doing with some of their other platforms and their upcoming platforms as well So there has been Apple TV before which is just you can buy shows through itunes or Apple TV and Watch them on your Apple devices. They didn't have any Exclusive shows well, they had carpool karaoke, but that was pretty much it and you weren't paying for carpool karaoke Now with Apple TV actually technically with carpool karaoke had to be an Apple music subscriber to get that. Oh, okay Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and they also had an exclusive radio channel for Apple music subscribers as well so there was some exclusive content in addition to Everything else they offered which was everything that everyone else also offers in terms of shows But what they're doing some of this new stuff like with Apple news plus Apple TV plus and the new Was it Apple arcade? I think they're calling it Where They're coming out with exclusive titles that will only be available in those services But that goes along with things that you're already getting and using them for so I This would go dramatically against Sort of Apple and they're sort of what they've done with podcasting and it just would not be the same as something that they've created on their own before like it's It's a platform that has existed for a long time. It's known to be open and accessible and they have any of a monetized podcast really What do you think Dave? Well, when I think about all the awesome content that Apple has made in the past. Oh wait a minute You know and I don't like you guys But when I saw the Apple TV stuff and it was like oh look they're they're redoing the view and they're redoing I didn't really for people that like to quote think differently. I Was kind of like well, you know, I I hope it'd be great if they found something really Nitchy and they you know that was like wow, this is really cool. I didn't know this existed or something very creative. I Just I would not be surprised if they announce. Hey, we you know, we're gonna get Insert famous person here, you know the Tom Cruise well, that's exactly what's gonna happen They're not going to reinvent the wheel They're going to just go pay for big stuff like Spotify picked up stuff that was already in some cases really popular Some of the gimlet stuff. I know There's a music podcast local to me that got picked up It got basically your salary to produce a podcast only for Spotify But anyone can listen you just have to listen on Spotify, which okay So for me, I feels like that's I feels like a platform play like You want people listening on Apple podcast like and if they come to another way of monetizing that Maybe they go with the ad maybe I don't know if they can ads Paul Do you think that do you think it's more likely that they want to put content as a generating? As a as a revenue generator or they they're looking to just create People going to a platform It in my opinion Apple Historically has always gone to where they think the best money is at the most place, you know They don't do the discount computers. They don't do the discount phones They don't do anything they go to where the money is and the money in podcasting for Apple if they were to include Paper-click inside of the podcast store like they currently do with the Apple store will make them so much more money I mean all that crazy money being spent right now Apple can start getting some of it If they were to do something like that and they're not doing that at this point. I it's coming We know it's coming, but if Apple was looking to monetize their podcast position that would be it And so what this what this is probably is is a couple things, you know, what you just said Dave about Apple plus Apple TV plus not being that exciting, you know, you have a real problem because you know We got Disney coming out with their channel. We've got Apple coming out with their channel We've got you know, all these additional things that are happening. Congrats. We invented cable. That's not my job and They need something to get people to watch the show now it's funny one of my earliest favorite shows in the entire planet was Ron Moore doing his commentary on Battlestar Galactica and That was one of the earliest ones and kids ask your parents about that show But it was a fantastic show. Well on this new channel Ron Moore Has a pot has a show they can't give that away for free But maybe the podcast about Ron Moore show Something Apple would give away that kind of by default kind of promotes Apple TV same thing They have this gal named Oprah. I'm she's an up-and-comer and nobody's really heard of her that type of thing She's gonna be doing a TV show that's premium They've got to get away to advertise what Oprah is doing So I think you're gonna see a series of of podcasts produced by Apple that elevate the podcast platform You know, there are people right now. I've spoken to people who said and I quote Um podcast that's like Spotify, right, you know, I mean, they're doing The job the other guys are doing the job out there and Apple needs to start doing commercials You know, I'm gonna start promoting the podcast platform and I think this is what the game is I think you'll be able to get the Oprah show on Stitcher, but it's gonna be the Oprah show from Apple sponsored by You know TV plus how long do you think it'll be until our parents start saying I can't listen to podcasts Because I don't have a Spotify. Yeah. Yeah It'll be a while but but the thing is you have to look at you have to look at the money the money for Apple the Number one with a bullet money play is is pay-per-click inside of the inside of the store That'll be huge for them. And then all that crazy money that's there right now I mean right now they're just gonna spend money at you know parties at podcast movement They have no other place to spend the money apparently some of them are sending on The audacity to podcast some some iTunes gift cards, but I haven't gotten mine yet. I don't know what's up with that But the money it's not a money play It's a positioning play and no our parents aren't staying. You know, I can't get Spotify, but Apple as a podcast platform is is losing a little market share and they can just leverage what they're already doing I mean remember. Yes, Dave. They don't have big shows, but they got they got sexy action Aquaman. They got Oprah They got Ron Moore. They got Steve Carell. They've got they've got some really huge names associate Jennifer Aniston Yeah, Jennifer Aniston, you know, you know, they've got every single demographic out there For people who pay for TV. That's the funny thing if you notice No, they have nobody from the YouTube world because youtubers don't pay for TV Which is what we saw with the death of of YouTube red. So it's very strategic. It's very purposeful and it'll be interesting to see what comes from it Stephanie do you have? Thoughts one way or the other whether I have I have so many thoughts I have more questions than answers and you guys have way more experience. So I'll just put them out there Why hasn't I get why did Apple create the podcast platform? Why does it host so many podcasts and why hasn't it done anything monetary wise this entire time? It feels like they've been sitting on this cute. Yeah, exactly Okay, so Paul. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Um first time caller Has not no, this is important. This is huge Apple has not needed to do anything until this point. Hmm. They've been I mean, you got to say they've they've been coasting I mean, all they have been coasting because because that has been the best strategy when you own the market share That they do sure nothing, but why host all of these podcasts and do nothing with them like I don't Just to make sure Why what would you what word word would you use to see? Well, because it's health because it sells iPhones It sells iPods. It sells sure. That's what I do it and I mean if we go back to the early days They're like look this little iPod thing holds a thousand songs and everybody went that's a thousand dollars at 99 cents a piece Oh, wait a minute. It also holds these podcast thingies and they're free and people went. Oh, that was and Podcasts enabled them to have iTunes in different countries where they could not yet sell other content So the podcast give gave them that that gateway And I think even today the reason why they support podcasts so much is Because it they align with what Apple wants to do and that is how people tell creative stories have great Conversations be creative make art in different ways like why do they give us garage band now? Remember the old days when we had to pay for garage band and I photo and all of that stuff now They just give that away on their platform Because they're really about enabling people to create great things and Podcasts are super easy way for them to bring extra value to their platform What's as well as support all of that creative content It's the same way that Google does such a great job at helping you succeed on YouTube If you're really in that platform the better you do creatively the more money they make and we know they get that through ad clicks Right, so Apple it's the same thing more you create with our platform in our ecosystem put it on our platform You know and it may be I you know I if they are gonna invest in podcast and it is about the platform and getting more eyes and ears to it especially as Many leave which is a weird thing to coast you know if you're coasting at some point someone's going to you're going to get behind You're gonna have to catch back up a little bit. So that that's always a little weird But yeah, which is why we've always kind of pushed on Apple like hey, let's do something more here Right, and it also helps others do something more in theory Interesting analogy to YouTube because YouTube does has changed the platform It has support for the content creators and Apple podcast. I know they're not a host That was a bad choice of words, but they have just Like not changed what you can do when to put your podcast there once It's in that funnel. So what if if and here's my follow-up question if The competition wasn't there now would they have done any of this if Spotify not according to Paul Because city no, there's no need to now. You got to realize Apple is right now Is is a bit schizophrenic Apple is two companies right now? They're a hardware company in their services company. This is really important All their money all their profit all you know phone going down iPad going down Services going up and that's why the launch of arcade. That's where the launch of TV. That's where the launch of you know I cloud I mean one of the reasons why I photo They're giving I photo away for free is because you know my I photo library So freakin big that I pay them now the $10 a month to get my my terabytes of stuff and so Apple is To now and this is really important and on the services side of thing. There are people inside of Apple There are whiteboards up there where they're going. How do we make money on podcasts? But strategy positioning reality says take a slow, but there is a group You know, you know Daniel's right There's a division of Apple that wants to sell me devices to make things on but there's another division of Apple The ones that sell me ones and O's And he's laughing no, I'm not laughing to you There is a chat so youtube.com slash podcast around table or a podcast around table dot com slash live If you're never if you're not in the chat, you're missing out. We're just laughing behind the scenes This is what you're missing feel this on the podcast version. I get it Most people are gonna listen that way But come over and check us out people pop into like it's the first time I've been here and the best part is when people chop pop in the chat and they recognize someone they see Which is what happens on recognized Steph So they said Steph like I'm shortening it. I don't know if you like that or not, but that's what they say So anyways, you got it you got it get in the chat Yeah, speaking of the chat veins in the chat mentioned that perhaps a better analogy would be to gaming And like you have steam and epic that are services where you can buy a game I'm not so familiar with them because they're PC gaming platforms, but I think of like on Xbox too There's Xbox game pass which lets you subscribe and you get access to these certain number of games that come and go kind of like Netflix But then when you stop your subscription, you no longer get access to the game or when the game is removed from the service You no longer get access to the game. I don't think Apple is going to do something like that They're doing with music right now. Well, I mean in the sense of We're going back to the steam and epic example, sorry, I didn't make a connection there. I didn't verbalize that on steam and epic But like I have albums on my phone that go away the second I stop paying. What's the difference, right? Well, are you thinking they're gonna do that kind of thing with the podcast too? Were you subscribed to the podcast and you you're paying for the podcast? No See that's what I think Apple Probably has had in mind to do for years and Apple moves very very slowly Because they're very intentional and they do a lot of hard work on the back And you never see Apple release something almost never in beta everything they release they try to make it its final product, but I think I got an iPad running beta right now But it's not That aside I'm saying they're they haven't they're not selling it yet as you know get this beta product like Gmail, you know It's beta for what 18 years? Yeah So the question Apple would Always at some point allow the creators to monetize their podcast through Apple podcast because you look at apps and Podcasts seem to follow maybe three or four years behind what's happening in the app store So in the app store, you've been able to purchase apps as well as in recent years Subscribe to apps and that unlocks extra features I could see Apple potentially offering that same kind of thing through Apple podcast where maybe you're getting an exclusive show Or maybe you're getting extra bonus content. So it's like patreon But you're subscribing directly through your podcast app and then Apple takes their 10 to 30 percent Each year or whatever deal they work out and then the creator gets the rest of it I could see them Having planning that for a while and maybe that's what they're going to do with these new shows And if they do that with these shows then I think it's only a matter of time before that functionality trickles down to The other 99.99 percent of podcasters What what is the Why not just we want you to use Apple podcasts? Period like I don't watch using but because we know that people don't generally use multiple podcast apps You got an app you like if you leave Apple podcast, you're not going to consume an Apple podcast unless there's a reason Right. So there's this really great show. All I have to do is use Apple podcast. I'll use Apple podcast, you know for me It seems Even more simple that they would just say Here's content that you will only get it's free. It's just on Apple podcast. You got to use Apple podcast There's more money in the pay-per-click inside of Apple podcast search than there is in the ads on the shows They want I'm talking about ads on shows They want people using podcast. They want people using Apple podcast to sell the ads inside of search That's more than the ads inside of the shows infinitesimally more Cash they're good capitalists even to your point of If you're in the Apple ecosystem, you can be served all this other Advertising so to speak for their other products on Apple TV Oprah and all that stuff, right? Yeah But not necessarily having to pay for the podcast version of that Almost still almost feels like a billboard version of here's what else we have to offer you No, it's it's why it's it's think about it as cable TV like I can get NBC over the air right now But the cable station wants to give me NBC by cable because they get, you know Every third insert or whatnot on the commercial string, you know Them the kid, you know the cable station giving me a free television show is extremely profitable for them And it's more profitable to do that than it is to rent me HBO because the the Delta on that's really really small Apple wants to be at the front take a little take a little bit every piece, you know, it's it's the Amazon game It's it's not yeah Well, Amazon every time I turn on my Amazon fire The top third of it is a commercial It's saying hey, you know the Lion King opens this Friday and I'm like do they have a piece of that movie or like no I'm like no, they're probably just selling the advertising space Because why not what because it used to be I would log in it's like here's all this stuff for you based on you And now it's like well now that's still there. I just have to scroll down Well, they will have it They'll pay will have you'll get it you'll get it on your prime if you sign up for prime When we get it to Brian, that's true Like it's coming Okay, so if apple has exclusive podcasts is it a podcast It no well is that an oxymoron? Wait, wait, you're distracting my my question It's my job Okay, if apple has If apple has exclusive podcasts on apple podcasts What happens um because in the chat heather mentioned all of the platforms that apple podcasts Get streamed to get sent to what whatever the phrase is What happens to those did those go to they can't go there for free? So they'd have to go on those other places In a way that's paid back to apple like what happens with all of that I think the important thing is nothing changes for the way podcasts are now It's it's like it's almost like what spotify did with buying content and saying and adding eventually some premium shows But everything's the same like you're still going to have access to the api. That's another question of Is it a podcast right because these original shows if they're if they are Only available on podcast or even paid. What they're not going to have an rss feed right like so But the api that everyone pulls from I think is what you're talking about Daniel Oh, sorry Apple does have the ability to do whatever they want with their api So what they could do is simply add it probably take only a few lines of code that they have A toggle switch basically to say this podcast do not publish through the api And so all of those other apps that are just automatically pulling from the apple podcast api Would not see that podcast, but it might still be distributed via an rss feed and manually Subscribable, but you would have to do a little bit more work to find that rss feed And just on the exclusive thing anybody listening to amy schumer or trevor noah or Russell brand on lumina. I'm not no So I actually listened to amy when she was free on spotify and I listened to two episodes And it sounded like somebody gave her a lot of money To put no thought into her content and just talk because you're funny And I like amy schumer, but I love her stand-up But that stand-up has been worked on for nine months before they film it and this was not Well, and that's part of it too is that you know, that's part of the thing about Almost the joke on premium podcast. Has that really ever worked? Where have we say we haven't really seen that worked? That's another reason why I don't think Premium is like the thing like it's not the play but That's a great point because I mean going all the way back to audible When they tried to have Ricky Gervais had a quote podcast that you had to pay for plus it had drm on it They've tried this a couple times a couple different companies and I don't know that I mean, I'm not a member of stitcher premium if I really wanted to get some old mark maren thing That's not available in his feed. I'm I would bet the farm. I can probably find it on youtube somewhere Yeah, imagine if any of those amazing Amazing, I knew those big names are on a platform that you can just get by just using the platform Seems like more of a traction, but paul knows the business side better than I do anyways paul so first of all and and I don't know But daniel, I mean they don't need to use narasas if they're injecting their own show into their own platform It doesn't why would they need rss feed like just make it happen I think it would be easier for them and take less work I don't think that it but if it's something that you can only get On apple podcast, there's no way you'd be able to find that rs. It wouldn't be available to you to get the rss feed We have vays of making Apples better than that. They're not going to let you get the rss feed. It's like I can't use youtube to host my podcast Does does sony spend money making content? Sony yeah And you can only watch it on sony tv's right No, oh, okay So there's money to be made, you know now Do you ever feel weird when you when you watch a movie that starts with the big sony thing? And and like a tv's got you know insert cheapo brand Don't look this What that brings up another I think related issue to this is you look at apple music and you can listen to apple music through an android device You can even when apple tv plus comes out You'll be able to watch apple tv plus on a non apple device It's going to be on rocu. Yeah apple is not interested in locking anything to a platform. Yeah And and that's certainly a smart move that's something I think they can do more powerfully than many other players can spotify I think is the closest potential competition To in that regard or pandora But maybe this is simply That I think they're just completely two different ways of looking this Everything falls under one of these two ways is either this is a play To provide exclusive content just to simply bring more people back to the apple platform Or this is a way to sell content monetize something maybe offer an apple podcast plus kind of service later this year or next year So we don't know anything till any of that happens and we're just making up stuff We've burned 20 minutes. It's my fault, but um Let's let's think about Because paul you had some good questions or at least I don't know if these are questions. Yeah, they're questions Um the indie podcaster Will we get lost in the mess? I say we because I think probably all indie here I would categorize this as indie we should maybe define what that even is We I use the term indie podcaster all the time anyone take a crack at that I know what I mean when I say it, but stephanie. What do you what do you think? Non network. There's so many network. Daniel has a network. Yeah, I had okay had whatever No one ever pod fades and uh, eric fischer host of beyond the to do list is in our chat right now And he was on my network and yeah, I still always looked at his show as being an independent show even though it was on the network and I would say Not just not being associated with network, but more like Not being associated with a big network where they're doing everything for you You're not paid by corporation or startup or you have Maybe a thousand downloads per every once to two weeks that you do an episode Do you edit your show? Do you do the editing on your show? Do you do you get paid to sit behind a microphone? Do you get more than 500 downloads? Yeah, if you are the music supervisor and the editor and the producer And the website designer Congratulations, you're indie, which is true because I mentioned the the music podcast that that got picked up by Spotify He's indie even though I mean he's paid now by Spotify to produce that but I mean he does It's just him in a garage producing all the stuff I would consider him indy Joe Rogan is indie three Yeah, I think it's Joe and editor but he's not indy in terms of he I mean I think part of it too when I say that it's more about It's like do you have it? Did you come with an audience that that's part of it too difference? Yeah, right like you're you're trying to sort of Breakthrough so to speak try to be found as opposed to people already know and Eric says in the chat room He says our indie podcasters not already lost in the mix We are the mix man. We are the mix and makes this cupcake You know, there's there's a restaurant a burger place between the studio here and home That always has a line out the door. There's one location. There's independent as it gets And nobody in that place has ever said dude McDonald's is eating our lunch You know, um, uh, there are a lot, you know, there's there's a Portland we take our beer very very seriously, you know, none of the good brew pubs have gone Oh man, you know Budweiser Really really, you know hurting us Make good stuff. Yeah, there there's when you make good stuff There's an audience for it and the thing is is McDonald's has got a lot of paychecks to write, you know, this local place Doesn't and and um, you know the the numbers work independently and you know, no I would say Eric, you know, we're not lost in the mix. We are the mix, you know by the very nature of the way mixes work you know People get concerned when they heard this news that Apple will now just feature their stuff in the store And that part of your question here will will I the indie podcaster get lost in the mix? You know, and I already said I think I tweeted out that You know, I don't recall apple coming for any of us to create a extra wide banner So they could promote us and put us on the front page, which they've been doing for a long time It hasn't been just Anyone goes to the top they they've been editorial, you know, they've been choosing stuff to feature Ever since I can remember What Don't just groan you you said you think out loud Anyone Stephanie go ahead. Please. Yeah, it sounds like Indy is a very murky term But it sounds like creative control and how many hats do you have and mostly it sounds like creative control Because that's part of how many hats you have Do you have a say in who comes on your show? Do you have a say in What the format of your show is do you have a say in what the end product sounds like? You know, there's all those different decisions. Do you make those decisions or does the network or somebody else make those? Yeah, the decisions. I think it's very important. Yeah, I think that's a great point. It's super important. Yeah Yeah, I'm getting thumbs up to that What I think sometimes the network Is who was going out and getting ads? Because there are times when I hear I'm sure they all say They have the right to turn down, you know different sponsors, but I'm like It was somebody really going please can we what I need what I want to talk about right now No, forget Chevy or Pepsi. Get me me undies. That's what I you know to me Dave But when somebody said hey, we'll pay you X amount of money to talk about underwear They're like, all right, everybody wears underwear. I'll do that speaking of paying you money Underwear and fresh food. These are the things I hear the most on the big network Why? Dave how much money Can apple give you for the school of podcasting? Here's another thing people were thinking. Oh, should we pitch our podcast to apple? Like I was like, where are you? How is this route open to you? Like I'll just sell my podcast to apple. I don't know that there's Going to be any opportunity to do that But you know Paul you ask should I try and sell my podcast to apple like would that I don't even think that would be possible No, it's not but these are the same people who asked, you know Should I should I read you know should I relaunch my podcast season two so that I get picked up by a tv show? You know rob walch to the numbers on that a little while ago There's just these ridiculous questions that are going out there And the game hasn't changed if anything apple spending a few more bucks To make their platform a little bit more Front and center and we're all good for it because when when my mom hears my mom to this day You know still thinks she can't listen to my stuff because she doesn't have an apple You know and um and that was the You know, but when she comes to me and says so I hear oprah has one of them podcast How can I get me to laugh? You know she would And that is what apple is trying to do and we want that Because if apple spends the money to bring the mainstream onto the podcast app, then we can go. Oh by the way I'm at the same place oprah's I'm at the same place You know steve karell is and jennifer aniston starting to get in that demographic as well despite what she Wants to think she is and so it's good for all of us that apple spends some money putting the podcast app front and center Yeah, I am mixed the one thing I know I kind of poo pooed them earlier because of their content I was just excited that apple was again investing in podcasting Yeah, that's a point like I mean more money more attention is is always good for us I would think I mean And I'm I'm hoping that whenever they do this they make a commercial about it and put it on tv. Yeah Oh, yeah, oh, they will that's what I'm waiting for Yeah When I see the commercial that shows people how to subscribe to a podcast I will do a backflip in my living room. Can I direct that commercial because it's gonna All right, here we go fade fade to black bold white text says amateur hour And then it opens up exclusively on apple podcast Biggest takeaway is that change is not bad, you know, I mean there's different things that might come out of this And we're all able to be in the mix. It's just a matter of the mix changing its composition And I don't think I think again like advertising and I talk about a lot on this show that A lot of those conversations don't even really involve us And I think this is the same thing nothing changes for us if anything More people come to the platform and you have more opportunities to be discovered people always wonder how I'm so worried about discovery. Well, we need more people With more more sets of ears, but nothing changes for us. You're gonna upload your podcast You're still gonna appear in new and noteworthy. Oh wait. No, you're not Because that's a big concern. I mean like it just doesn't I don't really see much changing other than oh, guess what? Apple also has this exclusive show That no one's listening to you. Awesome Anybody want to bet do anybody want to do a bet bet live here and and and let people come back a year later What's the bet and I'm what yeah That is I'll bet some good money that there is no exclusive content only on the apple podcast product I won't take that bet You just you just think they're going to pay someone to create a show that you can then pay for no matter and get Through whatever device you want that we're saying. Yeah What are we betting? What is the wager? There's going to be no podcast content exclusive the apple podcast platform No, I understand the she wants to know what are the I'm bet I'm bet a hundred bucks right now Anybody want to take up on this? You know, we did do I did define this group as indie podcasters Apparently you're not apparently the big money. We we buy a beer at the 20 20 You said you have good beer in Oregon. That's that's all I want I would bet five dollars that That there's some sort of in between where there's a podcast of theirs. That's part exclusive part free I mean, come on money doesn't matter. It's reputation here. Who's the better podcast? Oh, no money matters Independent No, you'll get your money But what you really want is the fame right like I you know, I think they're I don't know You want me to take the fact that there will be something exclusive to apple podcast? Yeah, I'll take it not for a hundred bucks I'm not taking it But I'm willing to willing to say sure Well, yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, put some put some skin in the game and then it then it becomes interesting But yeah, I don't look like I don't look like a good podcast Broadcaster pro pro wait nasty prognosticator. There you go. I'll get spelling lessons with my five dollars There you go So none of these apply to us We are we've answered all these right will any podcasters get lost in the mess? I don't I don't think it'll be any different Uh, should I sell my podcast apple? You probably don't have the chance. So good luck with that Is it a good move for apple? Why not is it a bad move for the competition? I guess is the only thing Does spotify now go, uh, I mean spotify Got a little bit of momentum. They got out in the lead and now apple's gonna say whoa, whoa, whoa Come back slow down Yeah, I saw the the reports where like spotify stocks took a small Yeah, stocks are stupid because people stocks are stupid Speaking of stats, you don't mean anything. Yeah, I sneezed Yesterday, but I didn't sneeze today. So Kleenex stocks fell like exactly stupid So Forget that Is it bad for the competition paul's your question? No This one is a rising tide lifts all boats thing um, um and and and smart independent competition would um You know, we would do the type of commercial where they would say Wow, it looks like apple finds taking podcasting seriously. We've been taking seriously since day one You know, you could do that kind of um social media buzz and and that kind of thing. It's good for all of us The more money what does casting it's good for all of us What what would any? Directory not apple Fear from apple right because apple had we talked about apple has owned the space. They've owned the directory They've got the ears. They've been coasting. They're losing it slowly um You've got other players players coming in everyone's been number two has been open for a long time spotifies now I guess moved in a position. It's sort of moved around stitcher had it zune could have could have had it Um, but it's kind of always been up had they stuck around never had a chance Whatever just a disaster. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, whatever they gave up. Okay. They had it. They had it. They had it My point is everyone's had it. They've got their fingertips on it. Ah number two is mine But what what do they fear? What are these do any of these apps even care go for it? Can I um flip that around and with that replace fear with be excited by or want Um, I guess I would do that one. I don't want to come back to fear because Because I don't know if it even matters like is no one's going for number Maybe number two is exactly where someone wants all these other apps want to be I didn't care about number one But what do you mean what go your way? instead of Instead of looking at change the changes that apple podcasts may or may not make And being fearful of the repercussions that might have can we look at what the changes they might make And how that might actually be good for competition be good for podcasters be good for the listeners Yeah, I think it's good for us, but I'm just curious about these companies that have a bottom line like Spotify I mean they don't only care about the podcast space because it can make the money like I don't I mean apple does feel like they have Cared in some way about podcasting as daniel was saying and whether that is a means to an end ultimately Create and be on our platform and grow our platform is one thing Appans apple sort of holds itself out as this sort of open culture creative like and they have They have sort of just sat back and whether that has been a business decision or a philosophy. I don't know But you know, I think it is good. I think Right, no, we don't have anything to fear But I'm thinking more of the business interests of someone like a Spotify or a stitcher or another Overcast other platforms that actually need people where people are like, you know what apple podcast that app got really good and look what it has but but What would what would since apple has not been doing anything? I'm trying to find out daniel What could what could apple do differently other than maybe original content is a thing To take away some of the momentum that spotify has got or that would worry spotify. We're like, oh, well, we need to figure Probably the best thing they can do is Provide better content or Pack a better package deal of some sort like with spotify If you're subscribing to the spotify service, then you can listen to all your favorite music and Probably your favorite podcasts all in the same app and apple Although apple has separate apps, but they might still package something together where Maybe, you know, they have the the apple plus plan where you get apple tv plus apple music apple news apple arcade apple donuts apple podcast plus apple everything plus All for one certain price per month and it's a family share sort of thing And it's just part of what makes the whole package more valuable. It's kind of like do people subscribe to netflix Only because they want to see stranger things No, that might certainly be something that gets them there But probably they stick around because there's a lot of other content They also want on netflix because of that the whole package deal and I think Oh, yeah, sure yeah Not to derail us but netflix just had the first month where they went down They lost people and they're saying it's not because of their their right hike I'm like, you sure about that Plus they they changed their format like where do you go now to see? Uh movies that just came out of the theater In my neighborhood, it's red box. There's no place to see them But anyway meanwhile back at apple I Mean it's inevitable anyways like you can't grow forever. So yeah, they make enough money. Well, you have to look You have to look at media because there's there's um There's the money in producing the media and then there's the money in delivering the media You know, stony made the new spider-man movie And the you know second run theater, you know, that'll have the spider-man movie in a couple of months You know, they will make money that night by selling, you know, two dollar tuesday nights to it and you know apple Is making their money by providing a means whereby which we get all the content we want You know, this phone. Let's me play the video games. I want to play. Let's be run the movies I want to rent. Let's me get the music. I want to listen to let's me get the podcast I want and the second I start thinking about going elsewhere, you know in my mind I say, you know what Maybe that android phone is where I want to go because they have stitcher, you know And they have netflix and they have these types of things If if the podcast platform, you know, that will help sell the um platform itself of of the ios devices but apple In the services game and that's where all their future is right now And that's where so much their focus is is them, you know, I mean, you know Daniel pointed out that we're gonna be able to watch apple tv on on other tv's Well samson the the very competitor that makes the phone. That's the big iphone killer I can now watch Steve corral, you know on my apple tv products so apple Is going to play in both games and I'll tell you I think their future is in services And um, it's it's much easier tariffs all that stuff go away And um, if you look at all their focus and all their attention, that's it So thank you for all the money especially with with established companies who have a long history of actually Making money as opposed to being hype machines Um, they want to continue down that path in my opinion And you think that This will do you think this will help the independent podcasters other than just the rising tides, you know Well rising tide is a good thing like, you know, it's like other than that mrs. Lincoln. How did you like to play? You know, I mean Dave first time. Dave's heard that by the way. They've never heard that one before that's an old No, look at him. He's going crazy Dave is old, but apparently not as old as we thought yeah I mean other than making podcasting mainstream. What has apple ever done for us? You know, well, I mean, that's actually pretty good. Thanks. Yeah Well, I want to see this kind of feature come to the independent podcasters where we could have that ability To not that apple would sponsor us but to say I want to create A paid for podcast or maybe a paid for bonus where it's patreon like thing Built into apple podcast where I could tell my audience. Hey, if you're listening on apple podcast click that premium subscriber button whatever and you'll instantly unlock these bonus episodes or something like that How many things does apple have on their list that could make them more money than that? And and that's part of you know back to deafening's question about like, why did they why did they do it? Why do they stay in it? Like this has never been podcast It's like they have more money than like all the countries in the world like some crazy thing Right, like they're so cash. It's just it's like a drop in the bucket. Like it podcasting has never been a revenue like to us It's so relative to what what could be uh life changing to us is like nothing to apple Like they haven't had the motivation to or even The money hasn't been real. In fact, we could argue is the money still real now when you talk about how it's a fraction of You know, it feels like it's going to one percent of the actual shows We talk about his money and all this stuff is coming into the space Who's really making money in the space outside of a handful of shows like one less than one percent of all podcasts Well, and we don't even know how much money this is Even possibly about It can be as much money as they want because apple could literally throw any amount of they want to get any content they want According to laugh According to bandrew in the chat room. He says the last time he heard apple had 200 billion in cash Whoa Yeah, I mean like I said, I mean it's ridiculous like we don't even bubble It's not even a blip on the radar podcasting is in terms of revenue and and streams for apple so I mean now do we feel like I don't know Paul did we really think it's still enough for apple to be that That invested is now the time is that what they've been waiting for? Like a real So so joseph joseph here asks a great question that kind of leads into what you're saying Rising tide raises all boats doesn't change the size of the boat you're in I don't see how this helps small podcasts that that that's a good statement from joseph and we should we should examine that here apple Like was said, you know can add a couple lines of code And make a heck of a lot of money You know and apple if the podcast platform Once to turn on pay per click The indies can outbid, you know, they can pay more per click than rogan You know and they can get that search they they they can do these things So there are things that apple could turn on That could allow us to do well I've got a client who's got a standing order with me If if you can verify that you can buy me subscribers real subscribers my audience my demographic that kind of stuff Spin the money. It's an open order, you know, you know, if it pops up spin the money do it And if apple pops up, you know, I become a bit of an agency selling this kind of stuff So obviously there's a vested interest there, but he's as indy I mean he's making good money on it, but but he's a small name He just wants the right customers and if apple turns that on he will do better And his boat will get bigger, you know and Buying your way in has worked, you know Little independent restaurant bought a space at the local really expensive mall You know because it's the one last mall that people go to I mean they spent some money They're now doing better because the people are walking around and they're walking in the restaurant to buy this stuff and The landowners at this mall Can charge more and more every year the mall hasn't gotten bigger But the rents sure have and the mortgage sure have because they make the thing more and more popular And so that's more of the analogy. I I'd say for joseph You know, yeah, my podcast is still going to be me doing it myself But if if it's more part of the discourse, I can get more listeners. I can get more downloads If i'm selling ads, I can get a higher cpm, you know, if i'm getting leads I can sell my product for more. I'm apple just needs to turn this on Elephant in the room. How does this affect content for the listeners? Or do you guys think it's going to get better to attract more quality content? Do you think it's just going to attract more celebrities coming into the audio space or both? For me I remember, you know Paul and I remember I actually all of this remember back in the days when you could do your podcast with a stick microphone And it was accepted. That's not acceptable. So as more and more people get in I was asking a client this week. I said, okay, they do a sports podcast So think about sports podcast It's people sharing their opinion about a team and I said great What makes your podcast different? And I shut up and I heard a lot of silence and they went I don't know and I'm like, okay. Well, we got to figure that out I said because if it's you versus espn They're a little bit ahead of you You've got to go out and do those things that big brands can't do You've got to go to the stadium and hand out business cards at the, you know, beginning of the game and tailgate and hang out with your audience. So I think we are going to have to It's funny because on one hand we all want to sound like radio Right, that seems to be like the way we do it. But on the other hand think about What npr's audience is versus how many people watch youtube versus how many people watch all this other stuff You know radio doesn't have as much of the audience as the rest of media Maybe we ought to start looking at youtube and going why these guys are crazy And they're doing all sorts of stuff that I would never hear on the radio Maybe we ought to bring that if it's not super visual to a podcast I think we're going to have to start thinking outside the box. I don't know. What do you guys think? What happened after cereal? Not really much except everyone was talking about cereal. I would say trying true crime blew up Oh, well, yeah, and got all the money And everybody started talking talking everyone bought an sm7b Everyone cared about the reverb in the room. Everyone cared about telling a story Everyone cared about getting to the point everyone cared about bed music everyone cared about blah blah blah like content for that space Got a lot better a lot of shows got a lot of attention. It's still doing very well Like people sort of, you know You never you don't want to you're talking about copying radio. You don't want to copy but people it kind of opened a genre And people a lot of stuff came out of that whether you know, what do you call copycat or not? um, I mean entrepreneur on fire he found he found a he found a Uh a format and everyone copied it. Um, is is it better? Maybe maybe two three shows came out of it That were inspired by it that were actually pretty good a lot of garbage came with it So Yeah, I mean anything good, you know, you're gonna if apple's gonna invest The thing is we've seen this we've seen it over and over now where a large investment into original content produces pretty good content um and then you know Like I said, hopefully indie podcasters may be getting inspired or someone gets inspired who wasn't podcasting before and says Oh, I really like that genre and it gives them sort of a framework for how to build a show And then like Dave saying maybe they figure out how to add something different to it Um, but yeah, I think I think ultimately it helps the space grow from content perspective Would you listen to the new podcast from apple if they're assuming that it doesn't cost any money Or it's included in something you're already paying for how likely would you be to check out apple's new podcast? Is it a podcast about podcasting? I'm all over it man. I don't care where it comes from. I I'm pretty luminary for ron more Yeah, um, that's a lie, but still, um It goes back to my to my analogy of there's always room for another hit song Like a new song comes on the radio and you hear it and you're never like Uh, yeah, I have enough favorite songs. I'm not gonna listen to that one if apple made something amazing I could not not listen to it. I'm like, yeah, I mean Stranger things came out. I didn't I don't have time For another show, but I'm like, uh, I got hooked. I was like, okay. I'm digging it In fact, I think that's the mall. Uh, paul might be talking about is it called star court? Paul is asking. All right Nice, right Uh, I'm just started. All right I don't what else what else I mean because we've talked it's a lot of um, we're a lot of guessing Uh, hopefully we've talked about some stuff that could Affect most people who listen to this show. Again, I don't think much, but what daniel What do you think these podcasts so it sounds like these are going to be new podcasts completely new not just Made exclusive. That's a good question. Are they going to do both? What I'm wondering is what kinds of podcasts do you think these will be? Hmm They're going to be for They're going to be ads for arcade. They're going to be ads Look spotify spotify bought a music podcast for a reason Right, that was me. I'm I'm like, what does the typical apple user look like Apple has a little bit of data to figure out what does really well on apple podcast Daniel probably has that data But that's where if you can figure out Who your target? That's the same thing. Who's your target audience? Okay, I want somebody who uses a computer 24 7. Okay, let's make a podcast for that person Are they are they trying to funnel people to oprah? Then they're going to aim at that demographic or like paul said let's if I can't If I can't steer them to a bunch of hardware Let's make behind the scenes of apple plus with interviews of oprah Talking about how she's getting ready for a podcast and how jennifer aniston can't get along with anybody on the new Set of the view or whatever they're calling it and you know, etc. etc. Give us the behind the scenes of that I think they might want to do something that's story based And that's where a majority of the investment would need to be is something story based like you look at I haven't listened to the podcast, but the wolverine podcast that came out A couple years ago. I think in season two is coming out or just came out in 2019 That was a stature thing, right? I think so. Yeah, I think season one was exclusive season two though I think is everywhere. Maybe I might be getting that wrong. But anyway, the point is season twos go everywhere for a reason, by the way audio drama and heavy on the story A story that a lot of people wanted to follow because of all the popularity with x-men and someone hears Oh, there's a wolverine podcast. They already instantly know. Oh, wolverine. That's the character from x-men So it's going to be something I'm already familiar with maybe they're going to do something like that Maybe it's going to be like, you know, the the woody's roundup podcast or the buzz light year adventures podcast for Kids or something like that building on stories that we're already familiar with but whatever it is I think they're going to make it story focused Sure, that's the and that's the that's the that's where you get the All the attention all the rave you bring in writers producers. You tell a great story You tell a good story and you average money hard to find you a image. But yeah, it's cause millions of dollars It's not really a podcast around with a microphone You know or give give Ron more a digital audio recorder and say give us commentary on the show Uh apple's not going to do story. It's way too expensive right now. And and it's just not Um, um, yeah, it's just I'll I'll I'll go on record for that one But what if they did a what if they did a story that if it did really well Would be a great thing on apple tv So the podcast becomes your uh, bushing. Yeah, it already is. Isn't it? Isn't that the whole isn't that what they're saying? I mean it does, you know, it sounds like it happens a lot because there's lore and there's homecoming But when you look at that compared to the actual number of podcasts, but the more people I talk to Uh, when you get into the pineapple whatever the pineapple street or whatever the the different production companies that said, hey I can produce a year of podcasting for the price of one tv pilot You know, it's like, okay. Well, let's throw it out as a podcast see if he gets any traction if it does we'll turn into a a tv pilot See if we can get some traction Oh, man randy in the chat room was saying a reality podcast because the cost is low. Oh dear. That's how we got cops It's clearly how we got cops There was no budgets It was like writer strike or something and they had no budgeted And they and they said and someone came with I said this costs nothing like ride in this car Oh, wow And then I mean there's a whole isn't there there's a whole new podcast not new but newish podcasts about Uh about the tv show. It's like the longest running tv show. It turns out it's just a funnel for pr But whatever, you know talking about tv show podcasts as well and kind of building on the ron moore example A friend told me about a podcast I checked out recently. There's this tv show called the good place And it stars christin bell and some other people in it and it's on its third season right now It's a hilarious tv show sitcom I really enjoy it and there's an official podcast for it from nbc now the way they do their podcast Is it's one of the actors from the show Is interviewing other actors and producers on the show Providing all of this great commentary. That's like a dvd commentary Or not you need to update the language like a blu-ray commentary. Is that really updating? It's a little bit more updated and it's this great content funny insights behind the scenes stuff Really valuable really interesting very entertaining And dirt cheap Yeah, and it can be easily written into the contracts with the actors to say all right You will be an actor for our show for this many years as well as Host our podcast for us or be a guest on our podcast for us week after week for this many years Daniel when you get a chance, can you put the audacity to podcast and tired catalog on blu-ray and send that to me in the mail? Thanks That's awesome I mean again, we're just like we're just sort of guessing right um The rumor is apples and it's funny because it's talking about money Like apple is the one company that I don't think has to worry about money So I they're just going to try to create something good. I would think but uh, you know, that's also subjective like who gets it put in charge of creating it Do we think Do we do we think that it will be completely original or that they'll actually try to go and buy just buy shows Will they approach the catalog original and say Well, we don't think I mean you guys don't think they're going to lock it down to apple podcast So they're not going to say hey Pull your rss feed from you. You can't be available anywhere else here your apple podcast only now, but You know that seems to be what other platforms do well look at what they're doing with apple arcade So for apple arcade, it's a subscription service that you will get access to I think they said a hundred games And those are brand new games exclusive to apple arcade But they're from some of the creators of other highly popular games I think that's the kind of thing apple might be looking at doing is Seeing here are these people making great content already Let's hire them to make other great content But that new content will be exclusive to us and so it has that exclusive Free exclusive paid Has that worked it hasn't worked has that that doesn't work if I had a hundred dollars I would get in this betting game with paul I I mean we've given the example before I think uh, right cobra kai paul's favorite show. Oh, yeah Free right you don't have to I used to have to do youtube red free now whatever that is free now second season now free It's so true though. That's what I love and third and fourth I think actually luminary now has more shows than subscribers. I don't know if anybody ever did the math on that but wow I think that's it. Come on admitted. I know it's true. Probably true. Um, I would love to know what their facebook ad Budget is because every time I fire up facebook. There's rustle brand begging me to come listen to a show Come on. It's a good show. Check it out, right? And I'm like Right, so apple's not interested in that, right? Are they just gonna fall right back and we're falling to the same trap Well, see that's where my thinking is a little bit different with some of these exclusive shows So I know luminary has exclusives and stitcher premium and you know, these different places have exclusives I'm not interested in checking out any of them but I am interested in what kind of exclusive show or what kind of Original content apple will create but if it's behind a paywall, then i'm not interested Right exactly But paul thinks it will be you're gonna have to pay for it one way or the other in paul's world It's not gonna be a high to pay. Well, you're not gonna. There's giving no exclusive podcast on apple It's just not gonna happen But I thought you could I thought in your world you you could buy it doesn't matter what device you're on You could buy it, but you still gotta pay for it They're gonna do the gary leland gary leland does a show about softball Uh, women's fast pitch softball and it put a hundred thousand dollars to his bottom line because he quit buying ads on whatever it was some sort of google thing And so, you know, we can we can buy ads which are pretty expensive on tv Or we can just make a podcast and advertise our own stuff So I think that's what apple's gonna do Maybe maybe they're gonna buy gary leland Oh Maybe he's the one who leaked the story Then he's out You know in in thinking about The siloing and the aspects of that something I think all of these companies that are trying to be the netflix of podcasting The major problem That they have that they don't realize is we don't need a netflix of podcasting We needed a netflix of tv shows. Yes Because before netflix and hulu and prime and all of that stuff There wasn't a legal way to get these shows through the internet You had to watch them live or tivo them or you had to bit torrent them, which was the illegal Now that there are these legal ways to do it and easy ways to do it to get content You couldn't otherwise get in a lot of content So you don't have to be there to watch it live if you know, oh, I can just watch it online tomorrow something like that Netflix and and all of those companies are solving a real problem that existed That problem doesn't exist in podcasts. It's not like oh, man I want to subscribe to school of podcasting, but I can't be there when it's recorded live So I guess I just can't watch it unless there's a netflix of podcasting coming out There's not even a need for that kind of thing. So it's It's the wrong model and I I really hope that apple isn't just trying to jump in on the Netflix of podcasting bandwagon I really hope that they're smarter than that and I I think they are Well, can we go back one step further? Netflix originally was shipping dvds back and forth. What they were doing was killing The blockbuster video late fee and people were tired of playing late fees. They said here take a movie Keep it as long as you want when you're done. Send it back. We'll send you another one And then they were smart enough to Migrate so they solved a problem that was one That's what a lot of these netflix of podcasting stuff. What problem are you solving? You're not And then they found an easy way to have all these that's that's to me. They've ruined their model I went there because everything every movie I wanted to watch I could probably get on netflix And I was the guy that the minute it showed up in the mailbox. I would watch it that night and ship it back I was watching five or six movies a month for I think back then was seven bucks something like that Netflix evolved again, right? They went from dvds They went to they went to streaming and then they figured out Yeah, we can't have everything or we need more people and then they had original content And that was that was a windfall for them, right? Like they figured out that pouring tons of money I guess into original content apples looking to do that got people to netflix On tv there there's there's there's different platforms. I think to what daniel was saying, you know, it's it's This was the thing that needed solving in tv and and you know boob tube kind of stuff but not Not the podcasting space now netflix for the record. They always knew they were going to go in this direction Right dvds was was was until the network caught up Right and so netflix always knew and that's that's just important in the grand scheme of things Can can I suggest that we examine? And A is there anything to learn from this B. Is there anything that we can do strategically about this? You know does this affect us at all or are we just a bunch of prognosticating podcasters? You know, is is there something that happens here that we can take? And and we can even go to the larger question is undoubtedly there's a ton of money being spent on podcasting this year There's a ton And a huge chunk of it will be the parties of podcast movement. So if you're not there you're gonna miss out Um, I'm not that it's all a bubble. What do we do? Well, well, but enjoy the bubble while it lasts, you know, um, um Once you're lucky twice, you're good, you know, and so what do we learn from? You know, let's say apple doesn't do it. Let's say somebody else does. How do we be indie? How do we the smaller? leverage Attention, how do we leverage money? How do we leverage? You know? Steve Corral going on the morning shows and talking about his tv show. What do we do with this? Or not Lots of good point. We'll have to kind of I guess wait and see what happens You know, and in the meantime But Dave, how did your show change? Nothing changes a ton of money. Nothing changes for us Nothing's changing podcasting. Nothing should change for us. No, I'm saying for us If you're talking about how to what do we pull out of it? What do we do different? I mean, everyone's got different goals like some podcasters just want more listeners to geek out with them Paul you want clients? I couldn't tell you what I want. I don't know. That's why I just published once in a while Dave wants members of the school podcasting We all want different things like and it most most of the things that we want as indie podcasters aren't affected by the moves of giant corporations in general Even when people freak out and think Now I can't get the thing I want That company wasn't helping you get it in the first place Like you got to make good stuff and go out and get the audience find the audience like No one else is going to do it for you. They're also not going to crush you I mean, I think we also, you know, bigger conversation around RSS. I mean, Paul there was Tom Webster came out with the article today and he's talking about ad Ad models and revenue and quite honestly, I mean, it was a great article But I think he brushed off the idea of Of podcasting as an open platform. I mean it was created and It's meant to be, you know, we're talking about the siloing and maybe the The get rid of, you know, the downfall of rss and all that stuff and every platform having their own podcast that you can only get it in this one place What about the what about the sort of ecosystem that we've always existed in where it's Make a podcast put it everywhere Anyone can get it Doesn't cost it's not restricted to platform, you know, is any of that in threat and does it doesn't matter? I mean he you know that he kind of held out in his article today that the death of rss like is not I don't know. I kind of seem to brush away the idea that That the idea of open podcasting being in danger is It matters It doesn't matter Like back to the original question if it is it a podcast if it's only found in one place I mean, do you think it's a podcast? We still call tv shows that are on computers and phones tv shows even ones that never Are on tv's we call them tv shows too So I think the term podcast is probably here to stay for those people that know what a podcast is I think the term is going to well and that's what i'm saying Did we just build something that becomes an idea and that people are listening to audio on apple or audio on But it doesn't matter what you call it like if they call it a podcast So what but the the the idea of creating something and putting and having it available to everyone Not sealed off like the whole point is that we now have a global voice The barrier to entry is almost nothing No corporation can stand and turn it turn us away or turn us down because we are available via an rss feed We're open everywhere, you know Is there any is there any challenge to that as we see more podcasts more companies? Develop their own show and and whether people call it a podcast Or not It doesn't matter. I mean great. We've sort of put that into Zeiss guys the Zeiss guys like people Oh, i'm listening to a podcast even if it's not right they could download They could download an audiobook and and think there was you know a podcast cool But I hope they call it a podcast and then they spread that But for the people who want to create something, you know used to be we didn't create a lot of us have shows Because something was created that we could then that we could actually put a show out into the world Right and have to go. Hey apple. Hey spotify. Can I have a show? No, okay? I'll just go away so are you asking if If apple creates this exclusive content if it changes the industry so much that the Independent ones that are produced will no longer exist or people won't want them Is that the question? That's more about like the death of rss and does it matter? We'll go ahead Stephanie if you have a No, i'm still thinking okay. I don't think it's gonna kill rss because here's the thing I'm reading this book right now. It's called so you want to start a podcast by christin meisner Who's first three pages of her book are her resume? She is an official big shot smarty pants. She's worked with cnn nyc She's really cool and I get to interview her on monday hence. I have to read the book this weekend It's a really good book so far, but it's a completely different thing This is very much again where you go to a network with an idea And then just like in the movies you get green lit or not and if you get green lit you get money to pay your staff You make this really high quality stuff not everybody's going to be able to do that And that's why I think podcasting In the same way if we go back to 2005 the great thing about podcasting was I can't get on the radio I can't get on tv. I want to get my message out. This stinks. Oh here. Here's podcasting You can reach the world for five bucks a month. So I think that's Probably why rss will never go away Because there is always going to be that kind of punk element of it That like we're going to take it to the man and you know, you can't tell me what to do And exactly, you know, that was taken to the we were when when podcasting first started out We were very anti radio We were like we're sick of these people jamming the same 10 songs down our face We're going to do what we want to do and and that was kind of it So that's why I don't think rss the same 10 jeff smith songs down your face Yeah, so, you know, oh well yeah Now tell that to alex jones alex jones still has the same Syndication that anybody on the planet can have he's just got to teach his audience how to subscribe to a podcast And he could he could host his stuff on amazon s3 I mean, if he really wants to get stuff out there alex jones has the opportunity like anybody else Yes, he's been and I listened to alex jones on uh, joe rogan I think he kind of got a raw deal at times But I'm not saying I agree that he's just let's not even go down that rabbit hole, but um He still has the ability to reach a global audience as does glenn beck as does anybody else any insert disgrace tv reporter here You know, that's the beauty of podcasting. You just got to teach your audience how to subscribe and that's always been The number one hurdle is people are still going wait. What you got a what? Yeah, we've worked pretty hard to establish How to listen to a podcast and there's still most people say we have a lot of work to go What's a podcast? Where do you get them? How do you subscribe? Right, but then You know, there is a shifting there is a shifting paradigm where you've got these big companies who Well, you get you get that here you get that at spotify Like I don't You don't even talk about podcasts like it and then people they're teaching people something else, right? Well, that's where apple's jumping into this with skin in the game could be really good that Look at everything that apple has created. They create commercials about it They create marketing campaigns for it and they're commercials that make people laugh. They stick in people's minds And they're they're surprisingly simple and effective. Maybe they're going to do that same thing You know, imagine during the super bowl or during some major prime time television show They're being a commercial for some new podcast or something and then it says Listen on apple podcasts and that's the call to action at the end just like all of their other things They don't really explain This is how you use a phone. They just show you look how great it is to use an iphone Look how easy this new feature is look how much this changes your life Look how much you can enjoy your life more because of this thing we created And by the way, this thing is called iphone and maybe they're going to do that same thing and that I think could be what helps this industry so much more has there been A prime time tv commercial for a podcast Hmm No, not that I know of there have been prime time show commercials for netflix content for apps For browsers for alex ink Right a show about a podcast not a podcast too soon Too soon. No too late d o a I got that one right Yeah, I let my alexpodcast.com and alexinkpodcast.com domain expire you can have them They wouldn't buy it Yes, I think in any in any medium you're going to have people who Explore a lot And we'll see all the different places and all the different kinds of podcasts And I think you'll have people who just go to one Spot and just go there and will they go to exclusive stuff by apple if they start producing it? Probably there are some people that'll just do that And there are people that'll come in that way and then explore all the other places that podcasts are and that exists In every part of technology I can think of every entertainment Part I can think of people some people don't need a lot and some people want to be told where to Consume stuff and some people like to explore and I think that range is going to exist in podcasting too I also think there's such a large chasm between there's just so there's just two different podcasters There's there's the 1% and the rest of us. No, I mean there's the ones that Yeah, it's a different game like I mean, I'm not in it for ad revenue. So all those conversations about I be downloads CPMs like I'm interested as a space like what are we interested in as podcasters who are part of a of its own medium, right like what interest do I have in podcasts and in apple succeeding In spending millions of dollars On two podcasts that have nothing to do with me Right. Do I care? I mean is there a divide? Is it what's the connection between me? And what is happening in the space where we that gets all the attention this money and this news Where I've just put out my podcast podcast around table One big advantage people stop asking what's a podcast right which I think we've got there which Well, and and when I went to nab and I saw I think it was a 12 k TV and there were eight k's and all this other stuff and it was ridiculously clear And there's no way Not clear enough eight k is so freaking murky. Oh, yeah, gotta go 12 gotta go 12 Yeah, and so when I see that I go wow, that's really amazing and I know in about five years I will probably have a 12 k because of black friday for 400 bucks in my living room And you know, I'll throw my 4k that's in my living room now into the dumpster because it's you know So so when I see these big things happening that don't affect me now It may be the audience that they bring in and all the talk about oh my gosh Will smith has a podcast on apple or whatever You know the audience that he brings may eventually trickle down to me I feel like I feel like we see more negative reaction when this stuff comes up Then we see good reaction and that could just be my twitter feed, but it's a bunch of what I would consider Um people like us who talk about podcasting or their head in the space or independent podcasters Um, I see a lot of fear right people always though. What's this mean? What's this mean for the independent independent podcaster? Um I don't worry about it. Honestly. I life is much easier if you don't worry about it, but I mean when I was in a band, you know, we weren't the only blues rock band in town And on occasion a new one would show up and I'd be like look as long as we show up make the people dance help people sell beer Show up on time leave on time pay your beer tab. Nobody's leaving. We're going to hold our audience It's when we quit doing those things when we quit learning new songs When we quit playing the smaller clubs because we thought we were too big that we started to lose our audience So as long as you are continuing to deliver value and unless you know Tom cruise will smith insert other big name comes along talking about the very same subject that you do Okay, that might be a problem and when house of blues came to town You guys had to shut down right because when house of blues built a restaurant in your town all the blues went there, right? And the band was over right no actually that was our goal then in fact I remember there was a place called fat fish blue that was the big place before house of blues It went out of business, but house of blues became the new big house you know so so So you were an independent band more money was spent, you know, you wanted to play on their playground Well, yeah, and more people were talking about the blues because we had a place called house of blues bingo bingo Is there any downside? No, no one here seems to be very no no very welcome to have more people know about podcasts and If the end more choices for the listeners honestly, we know when the money comes though when it becomes about the money We're not a space that was that started out about the money, right? Is there a negative side to that? There's already a podcasting. That's about the money that that already exists in the spectrum of things in In podcasting that's already there. There are people in it for the podcast They're more sorry for the money there are people more people getting into it for the money all the time because the more People know about it the more they want the money that they think is in it or those people don't last I had I had a conversation with somebody last night That was left a comment on my youtube video saying how anchor I don't think is a good choice And she goes what am I supposed to do? You know, I've got all this stuff and I I live paycheck to paycheck and I'm like look If $15 for a media host is going to break the bank you have bigger problems than which media host to use and those people You know, it's just I hate to say don't need to start a podcast, but They don't need to start a podcast Sure, sure But that exists it is it is attracting more people coming into it for the money. That is They're right now already. So will it increase if there's more Exclusive content on apple who knows? Well, I mean part of that tom webster article that you tweeted out Paul had to do with the the bad advertising that that could also follow right behind that money and ruin the experience Right. Oh, it has it absolutely has You know, you know, there's always this thing about you know, are you in podcasting for the love or you in podcasting for the money? And and I always get a little frustrated because because there's actually an option for both You know, and um, I think that gets lost in in in translation. You know, I've always said I absolutely No beyond a shadow of a doubt that the best marinara sauce out there is made by some grandma somewhere To her family of like seven and her marinara sauce kills and is the best thing out there And I know that the restaurant I go to get my marinara sauce isn't as good But you know what? I'm glad that restaurant is there, you know, and that's about podcasting is is is if it is so much freaking fun That it's that it takes, you know, our off work hours. What about the opportunity to let it take our work hours What about it, you know to be our passion? I I think that's an interesting thing that You know becomes passive, you know becomes almost cliche to um, you know, you know Poo Poo those of who were in the money? I'm I'm having a blast running this company because I get to help other people make podcasts and so am I in the money? Yes, I'm in it for the money. Yes, but The love as well and I just think that gets forgotten sometimes and I don't think it's either You know, you're destined to be poor on a podcaster or or you're one of those evil capitalist I think there's something maybe in the middle Yes, and I to clarify I was talking about people coming into it just to make money Not for people who are doing the overlap in the vent diagram um Right, and I think that that's part of the problem is when when people see a gold rush or companies see a gold rush So like like these horrible ads that are getting injected and And people and podcasters taking these ads for pennies on the dollar because it's the first money they've seen Or or a network taking a whole group of five dollar cpm ads of garbage Stuff and you know, what does that do to the space? I mean there is some element You know if you have If you were if you're here if you have any love for the content You're good like I'm I it's it's not about that like it is I'm more concerned with the the the stuff that comes with success and pouring in more money With that is just there You know for only that purpose like there is no love involved like stephan you're saying it's just People come in like Dave like I I need I need money. You know, well, that's not gonna work, right? But on some level You know the ad the whole ad thing with the cheap ads and garbage content You know that that could become a problem as tom was Stating I don't know what it was tom saying basically there. What do you agree with? Well if apple spends a ton of money it mom to listen to podcasting for the first time and then mom listens to Podcasting it's a crappy experience because somebody bought a bunch of forget the five cpms, dude We're seeing two and three right now Um, that could be the damage and there should be a little bit of policing there. That was what tom was saying Yeah, tom cool him on show Yeah, I know i'm just fishing for i'm just fishing for for feedback here all right We are we have run long we have we're beating dead horse, but we're having fun just making stuff up Slow energy today. Oh, is it hot where you're at? Yes Is it hot everywhere china Uh, well, I can't speak for everywhere. I'm very intentionally only in shanghai It's 81 right now and it's eight. It's nine o'clock in the morning It's been in the 90s for a while and it'll probably be like that till november superhuman Oh 90 percent. Oh, yeah, yo Yeah, clear that in me all the china that would be a little hard to cover the weather report Oh gosh, no Uh, all right, just taking the uh the temperature of the room so to speak. All right Let's get out of here. My goodness Dan j lewis Two in a row buddy. Thanks, man Thank you. It's it's been great to be back and I will be back more often now I for people who watch the video or maybe this is a reason to go back and watch the video There is a studio rebuild in progress behind me So I will be getting back into podcasting soon over at the audacity to podcast.com awesome Dave jackson, thanks man Yep, always great to be here and hang out and have some fun And uh, you can find me at school of podcasting.com I think dave was the one who put 90 minutes in the chat room. So he's the hall monitor today Appreciate that just letting you know dave actually has he has other shows to do I only have this one. So why would I want to go night? Yeah, who cares it's friday. This is what i'm doing Dave actually has more podcasts than luminary has subscribed And audience Paul, thanks for joining us always a pleasure looking for my shirt Keep looking Stephanie first time Roundtable, thanks so much and you're popular in the chat. We have to bring you back Yay, Stephanie brings eyeballs Man, I need to do a shout out to my four podcast because I am a crazy person You can find that they're like expat life technology creativity and books We've rebamped one of them to be bookish expats to include books and living overseas combined Steph fuchio, which I always have to spell s t e p h f u c c i o dot we blee dot com is the current site It is changing, but that's where you can find all four of them Very cool Roundtable dot com or on youtube. We are rocketing towards a thousand subs. So We can't get there without your help Subscribe if you're still listening Um, you're the type you would subscribe. So check us out once in a bloom You just hit subscribe people use the subscribe button the way to use a like button So we don't actually expect you to show up Just press subscribe. I just want numbers money two dollar cpms Five cent iTunes gift card commercials iTunes gift cards. There you go All right, I think I'm gonna sell this show to apple podcast. There you go. We've established it's gonna work Awesome. All right. Thanks everyone podcast roundtable dot com. See you next time. Thank you later