 All right, we're recording. Go ahead. Okay, so. Good morning. I would like to call the meeting of the finance committee of the town council, the order at. And this is May 31. And it's two minutes after nine. So, I want to thank everybody for being present and I will. First start by. Making usual announcement that pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 22 the acts of 2022. This meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom. Telephone. No in person attendance of members of the public who's being permitted, but every effort is being made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by technological means. So, with that, what I would like to do is the next step is just a second. I think we've already heard last thing. Okay, thank you. What I would like to do is call on each member of the finance committee to assure that they can hear me and we can hear them. And then I'm going to turn it over to Lynn as council president, because I think that she has to convene a meeting of the council since there's a quorum of the council. And I'm going to turn it over to the council president at the moment. So, with that said, again going alphabetically by last name. Lynn present Bob. Matt morning present. Bernie present Michelle. Yeah. Kathy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. So we have all members of the committee are present and it's truly noted. Lynn. I'm calling the town council together for its ad hoc. I mean, excuse me for its committee of the whole meeting with the finance committee at 905. Check and make sure that Jennifer Todd, you can hear me and I can hear you. Yes, I can. Thank you. And Patty Angeles. Yes, I'm here, and I can hear. Thank you both. Okay, so let me do a quick agenda review and I can put it on the screen or somebody can put on the screen if they wish, but in any event. We've got done the call to order now with the agenda review. I'm going to do public comment early in the meeting because, as I had said previously to the committee that since we are going to be making decisions today. It's more important that we have public comment earlier, rather than wait for later in the meeting because it would be very important for us to be able to hear from the public in a timely manner so that we can consider their views during our discussion. We will see if there any additional questions or discussion about the budget now comment on that. A little bit further in a moment, and then do the budget review and planning for next meetings. As of the committee, I wanted to explain a little bit more about the process for and for the public for members of the about the process for today, which is different because we're now the point where we need to make some recommendations for the council. As I have pointed out, in several things, including a memo to the council itself. The charter requires that the finance committee make a recommendation on the budget within 30 days of referral referral is on my second tomorrow is the 30th day. So, this is the day we have to make the decision, and I have to then send them on. We're going to do the report in two parts this time. The report that's going to go first to the council will be a very brief report, just stating what recommendations we're making, but not have a discussion of the recommendations, which will then give us more time to actually have it. We have further discussion of our further process to really develop the discussion in a more thoughtful way. So by splitting it we've achieved the goal that's required by the charter, and we will have a fuller explanation. And more thoughtfully written explanation available with the council and the community when it looks at what our work has been. We had an agreement that if any two members of the committee identified issues that includes today that they would be included in the discussion that after we discuss budget and all of the issues that are identified. We will then see if there's a motion on budget itself. And I also want to remind you that the capital improvement program will be done in a separate process on a separate timeline as provided in the charter. So the other thing that we did was in the last meeting, we identified two issues for discussion today. One was through school funding request made by the school committee. And so that is going to be one item that we will have some significant discussion on. We have heard significant public comment about the public safety budget. And given that we agreed that we would talk about the public safety budget, because it would be important to be able to have that discussion and to be able to be included in the memorandum as a matter of fully informing the community and the council about our discussion of these issues and our analysis and the third thing that I wanted to add is that I was beginning to work on the sort of the outlines the very beginning of the report. I became concerned about questions of long term planning and whether we are thinking through not just FY 23, but the parts of the budget that are presented to us that are not the FY 23 budget but are FY 24 and beyond and whether that both effects are thinking in general on financial planning for the community in the town, but also whether it affects our thinking about the budget that we're going to be voting on today which is the FY 23 budget. I did talk with this over with the Vice Chair, Kathy, and she agreed that this is an important issue. And therefore, since there were two of us who identified the issue. I went ahead and added it to the list without having a further process because that meant that there were two of us who had identified the issue. I tried to frame it in a series of questions that I sent to Paul and to Sean and Paul and Sean responded and those responses. I only sent this yesterday so and I only got the responses last night in this morning. I think we're now been forwarded to the committee and because there are others who are interested. I asked Athena to add them to the packet for the meeting, the questions and the responses that we received. So that is the third issue. So with that, I'm going to pause and see if there are any initial comments, questions from members of the committee. About the process and or about issues that you would want to make sure are discussed and after that I will turn to public comment. And see your hand this up. I want to recognize that Dorothy Pam has joined us Dorothy can you hear us. Yes, I can. Thank you. And Andy, the list also includes responding to the AHR a request. We actually I think we're not. I mean we let's discuss that I guess that we should we can discuss that today. And we have to decide to what extent it is an FY 23 budget issue or is an issue for a later date. And I do want to acknowledge that we were asked by the council to consider the issue and if we end up deciding that we're only going to look at the FY 23 piece to it that there are other parts to the reparations discussion and to address that we will include it in our next agenda when we will just identify the date for that meeting as noted later this morning. But thank you for bringing that forward. So anything else in the way of questions or comments at this point. Hearing none what I'm going to do is see if there are any members of the public who wish to make public comment. This is a standard process and if I see any hands raised. I will have that person brought into the room and a lot for the public comment as in a consistent manner of policy. I see no public comment at this time. We may come back to one more round of public comment later but I appreciate that we were given the opportunity to do that soon. So are there other issues right now that any members of the committee or the council think we need to have a discussion on other than the ones that have already been identified. I'm just looking for hands and seeing none. So, I think that I would propose that we go to the as a first item, the school committee request. And I don't know if anyone has any introductory comments to make about that but I hope that what we will do in the course of the conversation is really help identify for the committee and all of the issues on both sides of the matter. So, Lynn. I just was going to ask Andy whether you want to frame the question before finance committee and the council. I mean I'll be glad to do it but if you want to do it please do. I think that there's, it's fairly straightforward question that this is one, we are limited as a committee and as a council to considering the budget and we cannot add to the budget for the most part, we can only delete or reduce items within the budget. And the exception is if there is a request from the school committee. For additional resources, the state statute and the charter provide that by a two thirds vote the council can reverse, add money to the budget for the purpose and amount requested by the school committee. And so, and I, but I think this basically is school committee has spoken on it before by memorandum, but it has tried to frame the budget within the amount that was voted in the guidelines and was provided therefore. In the guidance to the town manager. The process that was that took place at the school committee left out funding for one specific purpose. And that was in, to be more specific, the superintendent did not make a recommendation to add time for positions for art and technology teachers that had been produced from full time to 80% in the FY 22 budget. It was not within the priorities, apparently of the superintendent to within the amount of money that was available. The school committee felt that it was important to do that identified a series of sources of funding, one of which was to ask the council vote an additional approximately $54,000 in funding for FY 23 for the school budget for a portion of the cost. I think that there are a series of issues that we will want to talk about as a committee and as a council. And I can frame a little bit of that but I'm hoping that the discussion will do so. Matt, let's see your hands up. I thought I don't usually jump right in terms of first comment but I thought since I spent quite a bit of time chatting with school committee chair and finance director I would just weigh in again on my thoughts on this and you know I, as I said before, for me the is in the in the general ebb and flow of a large school district budget relatively large school district budget 54,000 is a sum that was a surprisingly small amount to be controversial in any way, and, and I did speak with Doug slaughter at length and he was really helpful in providing me some some descriptions and context around around the numbers but it became clear to me just, you know, a school district budget, because there is so much there are so many positions in a school district budget that from week to week are unfilled or you have legacy positions. I got the sense from Doug that, you know, that these 54,000 to support these really important high profile positions within the school department that 54,000 could be found within the operating budget that was proposed in the guidelines originally. And so, you know, although I think the school is definitely face real challenges. The number doesn't to me indicate a large structural problem. You know, instead I think it kind of operates. It's an operating budget number that that I think can be solved within the school department. And I also just want to kind of highlight what what has been said by many other people that, you know, the ongoing challenge between the manager's office, the council and the schools is going to be to rally public support for an override for a very substantial school project in the very near future. And so I don't feel that this is a topic that we want to it would be better to present a unified front with with the manager's office right now then it would be to sort of override that decision on a $54,000 question which is not the name of game shows $54,000 questions kind of funny. Anyways, I just want to make those comments and, you know, I mean I say, I have utmost respect for for Doug and the superintendent and that whole team. However, I don't personally think this is an area that we should overrule the town manager's recommendation. Thank you. I'm going to build on what Matt is saying, and I'm going to start by saying first of all, with all due respect to the superintendent, the school committee. Doug Slaughter. We gave them guidelines, and they came back with something above the guidelines. That sets a precedent that in the years of the council which are short. We have not seen. And if we start doing it now, there is no end. And we. So I am not supporting adding the money into the school budget. I also agree with Matt that it can be found elsewhere. And at some time in the future we may, and I do say may want to reconsider giving them more money if needed, but because of many other constraints on this budget, I do not see supporting this at this time. I just want to clarify one thing. Just to clarify what Lynn said, so the superintendent and the finance director did present the budget within the council's guidelines, the school committee. After that presentation decided to increase it. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yes. I see that there's a handout from another member of the council. We're sort of in a very peculiar situation. We are now into committee deliberations I will recognize all counselors, however, but I'm not going to follow my usual practice of order. So please leave your hand up that I am moving around and hearing from members of the committee is because ultimately this is a committee decision that I will recognize other members of the council. Kathy. Thank you, Andy. I just want to build on what both Matt and Lynn said. I also listened or read the proceedings after the fact I wasn't there in real time. At the school committee discussion there was a discussion that there are some internal funds that could make up this 55,000 so it goes with what Doug said that and it was pointed out by at least one member. And I think we're in really tight budget worlds with the ESSER funds, creating a buffer, but, but going over the amount right now doesn't make sense to me with what I see that there is room in the budget that they have now. So this is a high priority and the school committee says, let's go from 80 to 100%. They could find the money so I'm not making a judgment on these positions. And I just think that we need to stay within the guidelines, because when we get to the later discussion about the rest of the budget. We are barely making FY23 work. FY24, I want to understand better and then the next several years we. And, and the point about the school building coming down the road, I think we need to show that we, we have discipline the school committee has discipline and we're making hard choices but in this case I don't even feel it's a hard choice because I think there's enough room in the existing budget that they will have that there is some latitude and Matt did a lot more conversations with this, but on some funds that they know they come in under each time. And they know where those monies are. So that's my point of view on this. Bob. Yeah, I just want to agree with the other members of the committee that I support the idea of fully funding art and math and tech teachers but I do think that the superintendent can find the funds within the, the manager's budget town manager's budget. I don't see that. I mean, my, my experience from the private sector is if you can't find $50,000 and a $25 million budget, then you're not really managing well. So I think, I think the money is there if the priority of the school committee is such that they want to fund these positions fully. Thanks. Okay, Michelle. Okay, excuse me. So, from my perspective and I'm fairly new to this. I, it seems to me like there's an elephant in the room. That's not being addressed. And to me, that elephant is a sort of power struggle that we're not really talking about. And I've heard Allison speak to coming out of pandemic. And I agree that $50,000 is not it does not feel either like a meaningful enough amount to, you know, be addressing it also doesn't feel like an amount that couldn't be found potentially in the budget. I think the request to me has more symbolism than anything. And I would like that to be discussed and not just dismissed because I heard Sean say several times throughout our process here looking at the budget that certain departments have received extra funding because we're coming out of a pandemic. And I think that's fair. And I think that's what they're saying to is like hey throw us a bone like we're coming out of a pandemic. This isn't we are responsible. We're not this isn't going to set a precedent I haven't made a decision on this I just I want to I'm just putting this out there I really, I'm very torn on this. I just want to address that. I don't think this is about the money. And I'm wondering if we have a way that we can address that underlying, in my opinion, issue that that is actually manifesting this request. Yeah, I want to thank Matt for his, his diligence and the research he's done and I, you know will end up supporting the manager's budget. From my perspective is always been a great degree of collaboration between the school committee and select board, and the manager, or the regional and the regional group. I'm used to real contests in other towns that have been involved. So 50 to 50 $4,000 seems like a lot of money, but I firmly believe that it can be found in the budget. And I also know that budgets are not written in stone that at some point in time, we may need to make adjustments I trust the management of the schools. I have every effort to find the, find, find the shortfall and they get up within their budget, and that if they absolutely can't, I trust they will in honesty come to the manager and counsel say hey we need to end their budget. So, you know, right now, I'm, I do agree with Michelle that's sort of a test. And my response to it is, is that, you know, you had a target, your, your administrators hit the target. Let's move forward. Thank you. I'm going to stay with the committee a little bit longer than I am going to go to other members of the council who have comments to offer to the committee before we get to an end. Lynn. Two points. Very quickly, I want to clarify. It is not that I do not support the art and technology, or any other efforts to bring kids out of the pandemic. That's not the issue. Yes Michelle there is an elephant in the room. The elephant in the room is that the town council adopts budget guidelines after discussion, starting in November, and in December. The budget coordinating group, which I was a member, Andy and Kathy I think was a member. The school was never happy, and they started not being happy because we decided in the initial look at the budget to take money from reserves for the crest program. The initial comment was that the crest program had nothing to do with the schools, and that is just wrong. It has everything to do with the schools. And in fact, one of the things that Earl, young Earl has made a strong effort at is reaching out to the schools and working with the schools and if we want to write off an entire generation of 18 year and under kids, because quote crest doesn't apply to them, then we need to learn what crest is about, and what our future is about. For me, these are the guidelines, and this is where we are. They want to have a battle. Fine. I'm ready. Kathy. I think Michelle's comment was helpful because I think there's a way of framing this that we are in fact doing a lot of support for the schools. So it's what Lynn just said about crests, but there's a huge amount of our money that we're we're helping the elementary grades, the sixth grade plan we dedicated Sean probably has all these numbers memorized Sean boat. The amount that we're we've got pencil for our bus is $800,000 of our ARPA money is going to make it possible for the sixth grade to move up so that we can accommodate an elementary school of K through five. So I think there's a way of framing how much of our total budget is schools, and how much the elementary school budget is compared to everything else in our budget, it's about equal to the town budget. So it's, it's not, it's not. If anything, we're, I think the town has been bending over backward for decades, but particularly during COVID to maintain and support our school systems and it's reflective in these other parts of the budget to, I mean, it was pretty telling when we had the conversation with crests where we don't have a full workforce yet but the first place our director was was in the school system and working hard with them. So I think that's going to be a resource that is not in their budget line, but in the town budget line that will directly accrue to them where they've done a very good job rightfully of not drawing on the police force. The other towns have police dedicated to different schools, as we've seen not too successfully in Texas, but, but we're going another route so I think we should make a strong statement of support for the school support for art and technology, and a belief that there is funding within the budget, within the budget guidelines to do the right thing with these positions. Michelle is okay if I asked Dorothy to comment. Dorothy. Thank you for your patience and Dorothy. Okay. When Michelle talked about the elephant in the room. I thought she was going to refer to dead and traumatic traumatized children. I understand the technical discussion. I think that we also have to realize we're not just bureaucrats but we're also leaders, we have to be concerned with public perception. And all that we hear about now is is about scared children traumatized. And we know that five days of art and tech are part of a healing curriculum. We know that the arts and technology where children can make things with their own emotions and come up with new ideas are things that are healing. I understand that the budget game you can take it from here and move it from there and that maybe it'll all turn out. But I think that we need a strong statement that we are understanding where with the children we want to do. We want to support them and we want if you want to have really good teachers you pay them five days a week. Okay, instead of these kind of crazy mixed up schedules. So, you can be right. I mean, of course I follow your discussion I understand that I was on the finance committee, you can be right, but you can be wrong. So, I don't think that we have to think of this is a power thing where if you let them have this, then they're going to think they can take it away with everything. I think we're at a special moment. And we've had discussions on this, and that you can frame it with the understanding of what what you believe but I think that I think that that budget should include five day funding for art and technology at this time. That's not the question. I think that Dorothy has the floor now and then Michelle has the floor so need to keep in order. Michelle, thank Dorothy is not taking your hand down so to you. Okay, I just want to acknowledge that in this case the charter does allow for us to make a change so when we are talking about, you know, we've given them guidelines and they've gone over the guidelines, I'm not sure why the charter has this allowance in there if that's the perspective that we're going to we're going to take with this. And maybe that's not something that we can solve but I'm just a little bit confused about the sort of cross narratives there, or the guideline that allows us to make a change and then the narrative that, you know, we've given them guidelines and they don't accept those guidelines. I want to respectfully disagree with Lynn, I do not want a fight. I do not think we need a fight I do not think that a fight is helpful or appropriate at this time especially as we're trying to get the community to band around this new school project and I one of the things that I hope to bring to the awareness of the, maybe some of the underlying kind of sense in the community and I feel like these sort of comments about if they want to fight and again I respectfully disagreeing here with Lynn to say that those comments are harmful and they get out and they get into the media and then we're in a divisive circumstance within our community. And so I really want to support what Kathy said in the sense that I feel like we should be thinking about framing this and how we can show strong support and bring together some numbers to really demonstrate what we are doing to support the schools and also make it really clear that we see that they're asking us for help as they come out of the pandemic and have children that are struggling and traumatized and and all of these things and that we acknowledge and we see that and we're we're fully with them. And that we still think there's other ways in the budget that they can find this money and so I don't know what sorts of reports go out but I would like to make sure that the reporting really makes a strong statement about that. And so that's my thoughts on that thank you. Andy I just want to ask a piece of history because you were one of the people who followed the Charter Commission. And that is the issue of the schools being allowed under the chart new Charter to be increased also was true under the previous Charter. Andy, I don't know is it in the Charter is a master. Actually, it's provided in state law as you indicated. And the Charter. I'd have to get the exact language I don't know the Charter right in front of me at the moment, but essentially says that the council can make whatever take whatever action is consistent with state law I think essentially. And therefore, because of that provision and state law, even though it's not specifically stated in the charter. The Charter in effect has adopted it because state statute has has it in there but it was never just specifically considered. I'm going to answer the question there. And so I'm going to do is I'm going to call on other members of committee I do have some thoughts under myself I've been holding back on it and I'm going to continue to do so for a little bit longer. Bernie, and then Alicia. Thank you, Andy. The school committee is authorized to spend their budget for any lawful purposes they don't have to follow line by line by line what what's in the budget. I feel comfortable that in that budget that size you can make up $54,000 over the course of the year, and will again repeat that these are not carved in stone that budgets get amended over the course of the over the course of the fifth year so there's a majority later in the year when we have a firm grasp on what we have for revenues to make changes if they're necessary, and I read at this point in time do not believe they're necessary. I appreciate the advocacy that are shown by some folks I've got three to grandkids down free in the fall, who will be in the school system so I've got skin in the game literally. I feel they're well served, and I don't feel the need right at this point to put the additional money in this budget. And we don't have to make a contest out of it, we can say let's wait and see you guys do the best you can to manage. We'll do the best we can to manage will watch very carefully how the funds unfold will know much more in October. We need to revisit it, we can revisit it. And it is a special every budget special circumstance I did COVID has added a twist to it. You know and for the record I'm not happy to we're using money out of the reserves to start a program, but it appears to be necessary. But I reject the, I reject the special purpose. You know this is a special situation argument, and I do think, as Kathy suggested, that if we had a comprehensive overview, all the funds that go into the school budget that would add people will be able to see exactly what what's contributed. But the advocacy is there. It's, you know, people are very well organized. I understand that, but I'm sticking with the manager's recommendation. Let's ask for a quick clarification. Yes, because I think it was said twice. Bernie were you referring to the crest program when you talked about reserves to start it. Yeah, just just to clarify so the. So the extra 300,000 that was added to the municipal operating budget that did not come from reserves. That came from the budget process and balancing our revenues and expenses and determining that the town would need those funds to fully implement the 10 person crest department. If we, if we didn't do that, those funds would have been available for other purposes within the, within the larger budget. But those did not come from reserves. The only use of reserves in this years. And this budget proposal is for the, for the building project for the Jones library building project, you'll see there's 500,000 proposed, which is consistent with the plan. Thanks. Thanks. My apology for the. No, no, it's okay. I just, I think Lynn may have mentioned it before too, so I just wanted to clarify. Thanks. Alicia. Thank you. So I'm, I'm also, I'm slightly conflicted by this conversation and partly because I'm trying to understand. And I know we haven't like come to a full consensus as a committee yet, but like theoretically, I'm trying to understand our position on this and whether or not we are saying that we don't believe we have the money in our budget to do so or we believe that they already have the money in their budget and they're not managing it properly and so that they can find it. So like I'm trying to understand what the argument is in terms of the no here and I'm a little bit confused. Thank you for that comment because I sort of share that concern because I don't. You know I find this whole things rather peculiar and this is sort of one of the pieces of my comment to is that I've been conflicted by it also the superintendent made a choice in the budget that he presented. And he chose not to include these portions of several positions. Then I went to the school committee, the school committee had the authority to say, we don't appreciate that budget we'd like you to solve that budget within the amount of money that has been provided within the guidelines. Instead, they chose to come to the council and say, please add more money. So the, which was sort of a decision that they made, why did they make that decision as opposed to taking the point of view that they could have otherwise done, which is the one that I described. So, there are a whole lot of things that I just don't understand in the budget. There were one thing that I wanted to put out there just because I want to be able to include it in comments and that is whatever we decide for that matter. One of the arguments was made was that there was additional money that was voted by the legislature along the path of the legislative process for chapter 70, which is the school aid. And I don't agree with that as being a valid reason at all, because we are so much above the amount that we receive in chapter 70 that is going to the schools and we are so much above the minimum tuition requirement for communities to support their schools that to essentially say, well, the money was voted by the legislature and therefore it has to be spent as it's a form of earmarking and I am totally uncomfortable at any time with the discussion of earmarking of funds and so that piece of it makes me uncomfortable. The last thing that I've been struggling with is I've thought about this that hasn't been mentioned is that I always look at budgets over long term, not just for the year we're voting the budget for the future years. And so then you get into the question okay you add the, if we added money for the positions for next year is the amount. You know what is the amount that we're going to be voting for the next year. Is this a decision that we're going to be expected to make for future years. What are the plans, then, if these are positions to be continued to continue the positions and I just don't see where that fits in so I that's the other piece that has made me uncomfortable. Yeah, I just want to add two little things. So one thing I think the school committee set as an early parameter that the superintendent discussed was they didn't want to see any cuts to level services in this year's budget. And I hear everybody saying, you know, you can find $50,000 and $25 million budget I don't disagree with that. But I think it's one thing to find it, you know, once the year starts and you realize where savings are where you see areas that are starting to come in under. You know, actually budget positions and to identify that up front before the year starts that goes to school as it goes for the town to it's not as not as simple to budget for those positions is to find that money at the end of the year. And I think the second thing I'll say is both the town and the schools have considerable uncertainty for next year's budget which you know it was one reason I could see the superintendent and the finance director being cautious is that you know we're in contract negotiations and I don't want to dive deeper, you know, because we're in contract positions but because contracts are not settled for next year that just that causes more uncertainty than in than in a year where we know what those those what compensation levels will be. Okay, thank you. That's helpful. So, we do need to get to a conclusion and I don't see any further and learn. I just maybe you can remember this was the were these positions in technology and are funded at the 80% level or at full time during FY 22, not that it makes a difference I'm just curious as to what level services were considered to be. I don't know the answer for sure but my understanding is these are additions that these would be ads to level services not continuing level services. So that so that would make me think that they were 80% FY 22 but I can try to find out the answer. The other thing is, I just want to clarify, I have no problem that the school district wants to fund these positions. That's not where I'm coming from at all. I'm coming from, you know, we all have budget guidelines and we only live with them. That's Michelle. I just, I want to clarify so I make sure I understand. So the process that happened is the school superintendent put out the budget and removed the art and technology. The school committee, instead of going back to the superintendent and saying we need you to find a way to include these things. Ask the council to make up for that gap. Is that, is that right. Yes. Okay. And so, can I just ask, so I don't know for sure that that's 100%. I think they may have gone back to the superintendent and the superintendent. Again, I can try to confirm this I think they may have come back and said, this is what we would have to reduce in order to have those positions back in. I do think there was a little bit more but back and forth between the school staff and the school committee. And thank you for saying that Sean because what I'm trying to understand or think about here is in what circumstances in your experience maybe Sean and Andy and those of you have been doing this for longer. Would that happen that they would come in and ask us and not work it out with the superintendent, you know, over this $50,000 like it. In what circumstances, did they have to come to the council to ask for that money and not be able to work it through internally with the superintendent. Because there's something I'm missing. So it's never happened since I've been here where the, where there's been. The only the closest example that's happened to this is, is when there was a, yeah, the library paras were proposed to be reduced 2015 or 2014. And there was a motion made from the floor of town meeting to restore them and the town town meeting restored them. But under this form of government, I don't think it's happened yet. I think that's correct. I guess I'm just, I'm, I'm that that piece is, is making this decision difficult for me because I'm not, I don't think I fully understand what happened in all those steps and like the coordinating group and what, what, I mean, it's my understanding that in the budget coordinating meeting, there was one meeting. There was a conversation about this in that meeting that they were going to need more money. And so there weren't additional conversations that occurred. And so now we're at this place, you know, there's nothing that came up in the coordinating group about the question of these positions specifically. The discussion in the budget coordinating group, it was actually very brief in the end, because the school committee had expressed a concern that town was being allowed to have a higher percentage of growth between FY 22 and FY 23, then the schools or the library and that the sort of like, this is generally not fair, we should be given an equal amount of increases the others. And the reason for that differential as was identified was in order to enable us to create the CES program that that recommendation was made. So, that's what the, I think happened, but to the other thing that I want to note and I see Lynn's hand was up is that I believe that the positions are part time in FY 22. And therefore, what essentially is that they're asking for not low this money not to level fund but to add back positions and I say that as if you go back into the public comment that we received, including some comments from teachers who were were affected by this. They talked about the difficulty of having sufficient time to do what they thought was needed for the kids with the within the reduced time. You know, just that statement having been made I have to assume that that's what we would find out if we delved into the details of the budget. I'm fairly confident in that. And Mike, I did check with Mikey confirmed that they are 80% are intact or 80% this year. Okay, thank you. So just filling in a little more. So we start in November with the financial indicators. We move to the financial guidelines, and then everybody goes to the town does its budget development, the school does its budget development and the library does its budget development. Okay, and then they all come together and the only thing we all know is that the regional schools are taken out and done before because of all the reasons we discussed. So what the superintendent did was basically propose a budget with level services, what the school committee did was say, you know, we want more than level services and for all the reasons that they're arguing you know these should be full time positions it gives teachers the amount of prep that they need which I think is what's gotten cut is the prep, and having been a school teacher believe me prep was important. So, but then the dialogue back and forth between the school committee, and the superintendent is already been recounted we assume that took place. The other missing piece would be is if we were going to give the schools more money. Is this what the superintendent would suggest to be used for. And he didn't ask for more money he came in to the school committee with a budget that was in the guidelines. And, you know, that was after lots of debate with the school committee. So I, I also want to make sure that we don't cross the line of trying to tell the school how to spend their money. They, they are a good committee. We have an outstanding superintendent and staff. And they need to make the decisions about what's best for the school. So that just fills in a few of the pieces Michelle that you were asking about. Okay. And then I need to get it to the committee and because we need to get to a resolution, Dorothy. The school committee represents the parents students and the town. I think they have a voice then they're trying to use their voice for something they think is important for children and parents. And I'm just saying in the context of Amherst talking about its wonderful school system. If you want to have that reputation you have to live up to that reputation. I was a grandparents day at Bement on Friday, and the head of school said, at Bement, we have arts and music technology, five days a week. I'm prompted there was no discussion going on as if this was self evident to everybody that it was very important to do that. And that they were doing that. And Amherst with this wonderful school system and it's the creativity of its students. I just, I just can't see why we're having this symbolic argument. I, I understand it's about whose role is this that and the other, but there's, there's no real downside, as far as I see. I don't think you're empowering an out of control school school committee. I really don't. And I think it would be a strong statement and that would be good for the children of Amherst and would be good for the town of Amherst to feel, yes, our school is doing this. That's it. Thank you, Dorothy. So, we now need to recognize, of course, that this committee will choose to make a recommendation, or decide to leave it in some fashion open. But we do need to get a motion so that we can move forward with this discussion with the motion before us. So I'm hoping that a member of the committee comes forward with motion and I will say that all members of the committee. Now I mean resident members are welcome to suggest motions. We're into this peculiar process of how to deal with it, but if a member of the resident member of the committee wishes to suggest a motion. We invite that and then somebody makes the motion that is suggested. It's on the second to some of the floor so I'm recognizing all members of the committee. But I think we do need to move forward so that we can get on to the two other identified issues. Okay. I think Lynn was waiting for someone other than herself to raise their hand. She usually makes the motion. I'm, and I'm not good at this so make sure you word Smith me I, I move that we recommend to the town council that we support the town manager's budget for the school elementary school system. Is there a second to the motion. The second but a slightly friend friendly amendment. I move that we recommend to the town council that we adopt the town managers recommended FY 23 budget. I totally accept that. I second. I need to get clarification that as worded. It's, it's the all encompassing motion we were looking for. In the end, it is not specifically about the schools. If you want that to be the motion. It is the motion. I think the one that the town that the town manager recommended included the budget as proposed by the town by the school superintendent, and did not include the additional 54. I think that is that we were going to at least have a discussion about public safety budget before we got to an all encompassing motion. Then why don't we hold off on voting on the motion. Okay. Okay. So you're, you're thinking Lynn and Andy that we don't need a separate one saying specific for the school we just go for the, unless there's some other issue with the budget, we're recommending support of the budget as presented is what's being suggested. Okay. Yeah, and I think that what would then happen is that when we get to the longer report this. We will definitely include a significant discussion of the description of our discussion about this particular issue and indicate so that it's clear that it was the committee's process. If there's any member of the committee, however, who feels that there's a different motion that's appropriate, because they would like to deal with this as a separate issue I think I need to hear that. I raised my hand just Andy, I'm comfortable with this broad motion, but I'd like the wording when we talk about the schools to say we strongly support going to full time. You know that this issue of art and technology, and we believe that it can, from what we can see it can be managed within the budget. I mean I've actually had supportive of the schools be writing me about this but maybe we can't use that wording and we just leave it leave this more general, because that's that's the reason it's not that I'm not sympathetic for going from 80% to full time but I think that they can do it. So, it could be a separate motion. Okay. So if you're going to make it a separate motion. This was, I was just talking about the wording when we when we describe the discussion we just had that we talked about the support of the school system. So we don't leave it that we just a blank and it. I'm going to trust Andy that you can write some sentences that reflect what we were the conversation we just had. Certainly can be done if that's the committees will because as you know what I've been looking for today is discussion on a number of issues that are going to going to inform the report. Michelle. I agree that I would very much like to see that in the report. I also wonder is the report the best mechanism for broadcasting that or the only mechanism for broadcasting that I mean, do people read the report. I do, but I'm just wondering if others do. Are there other ways I heard Lynn just say would have to be a separate motion I also heard and say there could be right. And I also heard Lynn say something really important about, you know, our role in not directing the superintendent and how to spend money and so I have no concern about what a motion might do in that. So, as long as we include it in the report and find good ways that we can get that message out. I think that we're safe doing it that way. Michelle I think you're right on. And I think it's a matter of process, just so that everybody's where process that we will. I would work on a draft of the report, the longer version. And that explains our reasoning, and I will include something about that. But the draft as I have done with other committee reports will go out to the entire committee. We cannot discuss that in any fashion by email that involves an actual discussion. But I will certainly be looking for comments from all committee members about the draft that I will be sending out. The reason that I split the report process is that it allows a little bit more time so that we can actually have a back and have that process occur where I get comments from the committee and can consider comments from the committee and suggestions about changing wording in the draft. But I have to keep it as it is because we don't. We don't want to have to post meeting to have just word smithing. So that's what I was trying to do. I think that at that point, we probably should hold the motion for later discussion and go on to at least the two other topics that we've identified and any others that might become identified as we go along. And one thing that therefore we need to move to is the question of the public safety budget. And whether there's any discussion that people want to have we know that there are members of the public who have made very strong statements about the police budget. And I wanted to at least provide the committee an opportunity to discuss whether there was any with what their reaction was and allow one more round of public comment on that subject because I think that we would be going to reduce the budget we need, we do have the opportunity to make that motion and the before we get there I want to see if there's anybody who wants to have discussion on the topic. So that's it I'll turn to Bob. So, Sean I have a question for you. What if we look at the actual expenditures in the, but not just the police department but the fire department together. Are we seeing any trends over time in other words we've budgeted X, but we spent a little less or we spent a little more. Can you give us a little bit of background on that. In Sonya you can feel free to add to this since you do the quarterly reports I think for at least a little bit of time the police had some vacant positions. However, two of them were reduced in the budget a couple years ago or it was just this past year. And they have moved to fill all those vacant positions I believe so. So I don't anticipate there being that same type of savings that we've had in the past. The fire department I don't typically, I believe typically they fully expand their budget, or maybe go a little bit over but I don't think they have a lot of savings either but Sonya maybe you can pull up your report and double check that. Yeah, I can say from past history, police and fire have always been really tight budgets. When we had a lot of vacant positions in the police department last year. That created a lot of turn back there, but for the most part, we're watching it really closely from the third quarter on to make sure they're not going over. It's basically just vacancies of timing or filling vacancies that turns anyone back. The departments both have quite a bit of lead time for filling vacancies because of either the Academy or getting certifications and things like that. So that's one of the reasons why their vacancies are open a little bit longer than other other departments. Okay, thanks for that background. I thought the discussion we had and I want to come back to the larger budget issues later on this Andy because some of the questions I sent in were more about this as we bring in crests and how does it interact with dispatcher with police with fire. I thought we had a really good discussion on the very thoughtful careful way of bringing on this new innovative workforce with Earl in particular talking about trainings important, making sure we have protocols and, and the sense of teamwork that was going to, that we're going to know a lot more a year from now on on what can move off a list of things the police are doing that can move entirely to crests or, or sometimes in teams and it sounded like that crests will also be interacting with EMS in multiple ways and we, and, and the spokesperson for this that was the most eloquent was Earl, talking about how he really wants to have the time to bring the right people in to give them the right training and to learn by doing and then to learn again. And so this we're in this learning year so I thought it was a very strong case for this budget reflects this transition period. And, and we will know more a year from now. And even with dispatchers we got an estimate that about 10% of the calls and they said they don't know yet because the protocols aren't in so they were doing hand sorting on what could be directly shifted but that there will be some going out so I think we'll have a much better generating new work that wasn't being taken care of before and mental health work in the schools and how much we can take over some of the functions that the police have traditionally been doing. I felt very comfortable with the discussion that came out and we pushed Earl pretty hard on some of these issues. And he, in particular I wrote some quotes down from that day because he said the, the one thing he doesn't want to do is undermine anybody's confidence of the people we're bringing in. And he wants them to feel confident and competent when they go out. So they, they, they, they feel like they can really be proud of the work they do and not put them in an at risk situation. So it seems so thoughtful and, and I guess we're going to have our first hires pretty soon. So it is this is our FY 23 really will be our first year that will have a lot of experience 12 months from now. That was my general impression of the discussion and the collegiality was amazing. As people talked about how they plan to how they have been working together but how they want to work together, looking forward. Yeah, first of all, I want to commend the people who have worked hard to bring Creson. One of them is here in our committee and the other one is in the audience, Brianna Owens and our police department and our fire department. Looking back over the last, I think now three budgets, two years ago, we took two positions out of the police, and we have not restored them. Last year, the town manager came in with four responder positions. And I think it was a race for whether Patty angels or I were going to do the motion to increase it to eight. And the town manager came back to us with a budget amendment in the middle of the budget process that included eight, and that was established on a piece of faith that we could get in fact grant money and in fact we did. In this year's budget, we've maintained all of that so the crest is now funded at 10. We have added four positions for fire, using the ARPA money for very needed positions for fire, and we still maintain the two positions for police. The bottom line is, we will not know the impact of where we stand today, until a year, maybe even two years from now, and we will only know that if we have a serious and comprehensive evaluation system that will allow us to not just look at but to look at the stories. This is a quantitative and qualitative evaluation that is needed. Up until we get that, I would like to see us not agree to any more changes, but to embrace what we have, support what we've started, and allow people to get going on the jobs they're being hired for. Thank you. Michelle. Andy, I'm wondering if you would be willing or somebody would be willing to frame the advocacy so what did what did you, what was in that in that public comment, what did you perceive was being requested. And I have several other questions and comments but I first would really like to have that to know that from your perspective or anyone's perspective. I'm trying to understand what is the ask. I'm wondering because I think that there were numerous comments from various individuals who raised different questions some are raising questions about too many. Whether we needed all of the officers that we have on staff, some people were raising questions about whether the officers being are police department staff is being overpaid. And some questions being asked about other expenditures made within the police department that were really not personnel issues, but where there could be cuts possible so there was this whole set of different arguments being presented and gets to my just general observations, which is that I'm sort of uncomfortable going there because salaries are determined by collective bargaining bargaining and I respect the collective bargaining process. And the council is not a part of the collective bargaining process that's up to the executive branch of the government. And so we don't really have a role there. And I think what Kathy was referring to earlier was just sort of the concerns that were raised by the question of staffing that feeling that being expressed by Earl and others and I think was generally been our philosophy as a council previously is that we're looking for experience to inform us about what is going to be the appropriate staffing going forward that we don't have the ability to make that determination. Now, I think that the last thing that I would put in my own comment on the subject and then I want to get back to other members of the committee is that we need to sort of recognize that it's really not that huge a police department staff when it comes down to it because by the time you covered the number of shifts that are out there that we were told during the budget hearings that we had in recent meetings from the public safety. It was had that in most times of the day there are only three officers on patrol. And we want to make sure that they can respond to critical situations that have to be addressed by the police department. And that we not put crests staff at risk by going out into uncomfortable situations where there may be a risk factor, even though it could be determined fairly quickly that either on an individual call basis or a larger call basis that we don't need that level of staffing but I think we need experience to find that out and we don't want to risk going forward which is I think what we heard from Earl. So those are the things that make me feel like the recommendation from the 10 manager was well thought out. Alicia. Thank you Andy. So yeah, so I think like I share some of the concerns of constituents in regards to the budget and I just want to explain why. And so I was a member of the CSWG, our purpose was to look at the police department and figure out what services that they currently perform can be outsourced to other departments that was like our specific request of our group. And so we identified and a lot of this, the like final information in this is in the LEAP report specifically because they analyzed all of the call data from the APD over a number of the last years to figure out which call types can be moved to the crest program. So that is there there is already existing data to back some of this like we're not necessarily waiting for data to come in to figure that out. But we already have identified which calls we think can be moved to the crest department. And so we're not creating new work. Right. Like this is not crest responding we moving some of the responsibilities from the P concern there I think is that how come the funding doesn't reflect those changes and that they're being looked at a separate because again, these programs are working in conjunction because they're addressing the same thing public safety. And so I think that's where some of the concerns come from in terms of the budget and how it's set up. All sorry, also additionally, another recommendation that was made by the CSWG was that vacant positions not be filled. And this isn't another important step in terms of assessing where we are at, because like, for example, if we were to come and see for next year that maybe one of the positions doesn't necessarily need to be in the PD and we want to move that position, theoretically in terms of funding to the crest department. But we have already filled that position with a police officer. Now we have to fire somebody and rather than firing somebody we have a vacant position which can be moved over. So that those were our thoughts in terms of approaching the situation and sort of setting ourselves up for the transition, rather than continuously waiting it out to see what else we can do next and sort of being prepared for the next steps. Thank you. Yeah, two things made me feel comfortable with the community responder proposal the crest proposal because I frankly was underwhelmed by the community safety working groups version. The first thing obviously was Earl. The day it was announced that he was hired I sent him an email saying, it's nice to see somebody who's had substantial human services street level human services experiences, coming in and willing to take this job. And that's what he did with the lot of the territory he covered that was one. The second thing is the leaps report which really does take a hard look at how crest should operate, make some great suggestions, and as Earl said will be blueprint for implementing the program. So what about the cahoots, which is the grandfather grandmother of all these has been around for over three decades in Eugene Oregon. It's funded through the Eugene Police Department, and folks are still debating how much goes back and forth. So it's going to take us I think it blends right on target that it's going to take us a couple of years to see how this plays out. Who takes what role, how much time it takes. I don't look at the police department EMS and crest as competing organizations I look at them as collaborative organizations. And that matrix, how things move and how things, how things, how things panel. So, you know, I think I'm in favor right now of keeping the police department is is as there's sufficient funds and sufficient personnel to implement press. And see how things go. There may be some benefits to, you know, increase, you know, decreased response times on the part of the police. There is, is some of these calls are handed off to crest that they already would take. So we're going to have to figure it out. And my guess, my guess is from building programs. It's going to take two to three years to really get a handle on where, where we're at what works best, because the kinds of issues that press and police and EMS deal with, don't come in neat little packages. Taking one police officer off the street, you can't take one police officer off the street necessarily it's like it's basically same issue as a school face. And kids don't come in a neat nice neat even, even bunches. That's the same thing with public safety. That's, I, again, I appreciate the advocacy. But my preference is we maintain status quo until crest gets in place and we have some substantial operating times, we can make some good decisions. I'll go back to you and then where I'm going to go after that just so that you know, as I'm going to allow more public comments to send other pianists in the audience and if she raises her hand when I asked for additional public comment. I wouldn't bring her in the room but Alicia, when I got to you first for doing that. I just wanted to make a couple of clarifications, because we, I mean, we studied the other safety services around the country, as well as in Amherst, and the community, and their response and we studied very in depth the cahoots program which is an internal program which is why they're completely funded by the police department because they are quite literally a part of the police department. And we crafted crest specific to Amherst needs, which is different than the cahoots program and we were also very specific about that in our report. And we identified it as something to be separate from the police department, not an internal arm of the PD. And so that is why. And so we're not trying to create to competing like departments just two different departments. And that they will address situations in different ways. And so, when we had some of these conversations with the PD, there are certain things that they said that they respond to simply because there is nobody else to respond to them. And that they're not necessarily police matters. Those are the kinds of things that we're looking to move to the crest department, not like obviously crimes emergencies those things will reside with the police department we have no intention of moving those things. And so we'll again just emphasize we're not creating need that doesn't already exist where we're shifting things. And I think that is what is being missed in the conversation is that we're looking to shift some things from one place to another. And so if you're like thinking about it like the schools and you have a program in one school, and you're moving it to another school you're going to move the staff with the kids to the other school. And so I think the funding is going to follow where the services are being completed. And so I think that's what we were looking to happen. And I do agree that it's going to take a couple of years to get a good sense of exactly how this is going to work. And so that is, though, again, why we suggested it to be set up this way, because we do know that there is a significant strain on the budget and we don't want to be coming up to this into in three to four years when we already know we're very strained. And then at that point being like, Oh my goodness, what are we going to do we don't have the funds we didn't plan for this if we start planning now. It's a little bit more feasible and I feel like we're just saying we're going to continue to wait at this point which in terms of how our budget is structured is not going to be the wisest decision in terms of the longevity and the success of the Crest program. So I'm not saying I know exactly what the right answer is because I do not and I'm very new to this, but I'm not sure that just waiting and seeing what happens is the correct or going to be the correct approach. Okay. Thank you that's very helpful. I am going to pause. If there's anybody who is an attendee who would like to make public comment for the committee. They certainly are welcome to raise their hand now and I see any hands go up from attendees. We will bring that person into the room so that they can speak to the committee on the discussion that we've just been having. Seeing the indication that anybody's requesting to make comment at this point Michelle. Yeah, I really appreciate your comment Alicia that was really helpful and I think this really gets to the larger question that Andy was posing in his memo to Sean and to Paul. Yesterday, because there's concern that we won't be able to continue funding these programs and what I'm hearing is that the underlying sense is, and I agree that we, you know, even speaking with Earl I had a chance to speak with him last week, and he said I think even if I had the money, I wouldn't be able to spend it right now something to that to that effect, you know, so I think his senses he wants to stand up that's his wording, and he wants to get the program started and really see how things as Alicia said may shift around as a result of the various calls that come in services being offered. There's one department it's public safety I don't think I totally agree with Bernie I don't think that we need to set this up as competing, rather really, as Lynn said, evaluating very very closely how the new program is being is being used. Again, the larger question is how to, how do we ensure that we are able to continue to fund, even at this level, press, and is the question, if, if, if what's before us as a town council is the ability to reduce the police budget. I mean that that money if it were reduced would automatically go into press and who's, you know, so. Yeah, that's my thoughts right now. Okay, thank you. Paul I see you, you have now able to join us so we're going to welcome you to the meeting and just in case you are not aware of it. We have a motion on the floor to recommend to the council to adopt the FY 23 budget as recommended. We have had discussion about the school funding and we have had discussion about the motion that we've been hearing for the last few minutes, but there has been nobody has made any motions to amend the motion that is on the floor at this time so it just wanted to bring it up to date on the process, but your hand was up so please. Thank you Andy and I apologize for being late we are actually interviewing press responders this morning that it was scheduled before the finance committee had scheduled this meeting so I apologize for not being here. And a couple things one is, you know, I do recommend ask you to vote in support of the budget as presented. I don't think it's an, it's not in any it's not in crests interest nor are our interest to reduce the budget of the police department if that's what people are talking about at this point in time. Earl has done a spectacular job of building this department. It's not just shifting 911 calls we even heard someone today from the community who we are interviewing who talked about people aren't calling 911 and that, and this is some of the testimony that came out from the CSWG work is that people don't call 911 and their calls are going on called because of lack of trust and that part of trust's job is to reach into the community and create some kind of trust that way. And I thought it was a very important comment for us to hear from a potential responder to say that that's one of the reasons she was interested in pursuing this. And in terms of, you know, building this is the third, a third leg of public safety that's been a really important task that Earl has taken on because our goal is to establish this as a legitimate program for years into the future part of that is through funding part of that are some steps that we've taken specifically to build this program that we've done it very judiciously. We've planted it in public safety. The city of Northampton is planting it in public health substantial difference between the two approaches we think we're on the right track. We think we're looking at this in a really positive way. The jobs we're creating the responder jobs are unionized jobs. We want this program to succeed and be established in the community. And I think we've got really strong leadership and we're going to have some great responders who are very representative of the community I think it's really geared up for success. The long term funding is will be a challenge, but I think we will continue to work on that because we're really committed to making sure the Crest program becomes a success and a model, going to the future. And I, you know, I would, you know, if you start looking at the relationships with a PD and AFD are really crucial to success because it's a team effort and with very distinct roles that we are recognizing. So, so that's why I want to mention at this time. One other thing that came up all during the discussion. Oh, it came. Actually, and I see Alicia's hands cups all get back. Alicia, we'll get to you in a second. But the question that came up is about if vacancy occurs one of the recommendations made during public comment at the budget hearing was that if vacancies occur that we not fill positions. And we don't, if we decide to reduce the police department after gaining the experience of the Crest program and action that we can do so without having to actually lay off officers. And I do recall that comment having been made and because you would have the judgment just because the budget is there if a vacancy occurs you have the judgment whether to fill it or not. So it would seem that at this point we're not aware of vacancies and that we need the funding. Am I correct on that. The staffing model that the police department has put together requires the staffing that's been recommended. Thank you Andy and thank you Paul that was helpful. I think another thing that would be helpful or that would help to sort of alleviate some of the concerns of the public is if they could see or understand what our plan is to support Crests. Again, that was our, that was our proposal that was what we came up with as a CSWG as to what we thought would be a good way to be able to make sure that there is funding, because again, essentially it just means we're not looking for funding that doesn't already exist within our budget we're moving funding. If that's not the right way that's fine but I think we want to know then how are we going to do it and I think that will help sort of alleviate some of the concerns because again it's the well we'll wait and see how it's going to work or we'll figure it out as we go along that is is the concern. And then sorry I lost my train of thought there but basically, I think that is the main concern is that we want to know what the plan is to ensure that Crests. What is our plan of activity, like is our plan just we're going to continue to look for grants this whole time to fund it for the next X amount of years, or like what is our solid concrete plan and also, I remembered, what is our evaluation mechanism so like what are we going to be looking at how are we going to be able to tell what should happen. That's one of the other things that if we can set that up in place now, or like have an idea of how we're going to be evaluating the program that that will be helpful for the public to know so that they can understand what the process is because I think that is where the, you know, some of the concerns are coming from right now. If I can yeah, so those are two great questions and I think, you know, we as as Earl has been saying all morning we're moving at rocket speed in terms of getting people hired and in place and it. These things take a lot longer than we always anticipate and I think the evaluation questions are really key one because that's something we really want to focus on is. Is it working as a successful and how do we measure in the community. And so we need, we have to move in that direction in terms of a long term strategy for funding, you know, I think we can put that together and sort of identify what we know and what we don't know, because there are a lot of unknowns and things that we're discovering along the way that I think our, our. Our vision is one thing and then, and, you know, we put a lot of trust in Earl to say to build this program and he's really done it in a very thoughtful collaborative way, which I think will lead to its success. So, and what but you're asking for some specific questions about that all sounds good well and good but tell me how how the money is going to work and I think we can look at, look at that. We won't have all the answers for that but we can put something on paper for you on that. And if I could just add to that quickly I mean it depends on how many positions we fund so we have 10 positions in the budget that are going to be funded into the future. I think the evaluation process will tell us if we need more positions and if we do, then we'll go through the budget process to figure out where those funds come from but as of right now we have the 10 positions fully funded within the budget. That was the council's directive and so that's, that's there. You should. You have anything more. Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to follow up a bit thank you both john and Paul that was helpful. I also just wanted to re emphasize that the, the info and the information that I think I would be looking to have is not only like the concrete plan for the funding but for the funding situation in terms of the funding. So like, we can evaluate the program and determine yes it's successful, but at what point do we determine they need more funding they need more positions. I think is the real question because a success can also mean that this is how it stays and it's successful like this and we're just going to leave it as it is. I just want to know like what we'll be looking at to determine whether or not we need to find more or increase the funding for crest specifically. And then also additionally, just to re emphasize the concern is that we don't want to say, we're going to wait till the budget process and then find where the money is going to come from then because we as we see every time in the budget process. It's going to be hard to find money for positions when you're in the midst of the budget process. And so I just want like a clear plan as to how will we be approaching that in the years to come. When you see a response. The only hand up is Michelle so shall. I was surprised when I spoke to Earl to learn and Paul correct me if I'm wrong but there hasn't been a new department since like the 80s or something that has been added is that is that true. I think and I don't even know. I think it more than much farther back than that. But yeah, I was. This morning he said horse and bug buggy. The last time. And I think that's really important for us to recognize is that you know this is a new department we have and I'm actually very curious to know how a new department is evaluated. Who does the evaluation I think with this innovative new department it's it's especially important and as Paul said, the world is watching us I mean we really are leading the way on this which is really amazing. So how will we evaluate success as Alicia said, but also really understand, you know, whether we need more or less of some other version or whatever it might be. So I hope we'll continue to have that discussion with respect to evaluation. Further at this point because if we're like to turn to the last topic of the morning then and will again put out as I have before just but just want to make it really clear that we now have a motion on the floor it's been on the floor for a while and we understood what's going on that any further motion would be in a motion to amend to reduce a section of the budget and if there is no such may motion offered at the conclusion of the discussion we will learn vote on the motion as it is. That motions to amend is the only thing that's available and since none has been offered I want to turn to the last subject. And that is the sustainability of all of our planning including the Crest Department going forward and the issues that I raised in the memo that afforded to you in the responses, which I very much appreciate from Sean from Paul earlier. And if you want to go and start. That's fine. If you want me to start. I'll start with my list of what's making me nervous. Go ahead. We are looking at a budget like we are this year. I actually think we can sustain all of it, and I hope we will look toward the future. But I'm looking at this budget and I'm nervous and here's why we're in unprecedented inflation that is not in this budget. We have to build a new elementary school, or we're going to be spending untold amounts of money to repair to old elementary schools. And we have two other identified capital projects on the books and others that are being asked for. An extraordinary and unprecedented amount of grant money right now. This is one time money. It's spend it and done. And we're relying on it to in fact balance a budget that is rich with program. We have 16 new positions in this budget. One for EMS for for fire and EMS and two for DEI. And we're in a year of contract negotiations. All of which could change what we're looking at. So I applaud the town manager for giving us what appears to be a balanced budget. The next year is going to need to be scrutinized as Sonya has said on more than one occasion and Sean has cautioned us about because of all of the issues that I just laid out. Thank you. I'm looking for hands go for other thoughts about it, but you know, to Kathy. I just go ahead and give it to Kathy, because I know you have some questions. Well, I want to build on what Lynn just said, and it's a request not for right now Paul and Sean but going outward you can't really see the fact that we just added all these positions on line items. And I know where some of it is being supported by our money. Some of it was supported by mental health grant some of this was reported supported by, but I think at some point it would be nice to see some of these as line items and I went back to try to piece together. I think it was a good job when I first looked at the budget so you had given us a great memo on crests on the cost of it and then I looked at the cost for the 10 positions and realized I didn't see all of it because we still had some mental health or other grant offsets, but I understand more about the way the budget's done that if you have a grant, the general fund is picking up the part that's not picked up by the grants so we're seeing pieces of it. So I think as we go into the fall, it would be really useful to see this five year budget with it all works because we're assuming two and a half percent that we can live with it. And two and a half percent worked pretty well when we didn't have inflation, it may not have actually worked great, but it worked better when there wasn't inflation. But when we hear that we can pay fewer roads because the cost of tar is up because the cost of oil is up. I mean the, the way inflation will trickle through our budget, we're going to know more. I don't know the sonius reports but it lens meant phrase of making her nervous this makes me nervous. We don't know at the federal level, and at the state level, whether we will continue to have a federal government that's supportive state governments who's then are supportive of municipal governments, and I would hope that we are but if the state would come up with money. The strategic negotiations for the programs would come up with money. It would ease my feeling of what is FY 24 2526 27 look like. And I add up step increases forget cola increases but step, and I made this, I said this last fall so I am repeating it but if I had health insurance increase pension increase step increase cola increase supply costs. I added up to two and a half percent increase in labor intensive budget so I just think we will need to be taking the close look in the fall the way we have in the past but really with where are their storm clouds on the horizon and where do we see the relief and Andy's at MMC with policy, MMA, you know, bringing state funds in not just in a one time level but if we ever got an infrastructure bill that actually said we're helping you with your infrastructure be great. I just want to end there but I just feel like we're underfunding at the state level. You know the idea that the school granting authority is not living up to its promises in the past of matching that they're just cutting down what they're putting limits on it, because you know a growth in the pot of money to expand and not doing it to be mean. Means that the state is not robustly funding the support systems that have been enabled municipalities for at least schools to build their schools so it's that it's across the board and it's not just construction costs but it will be our food costs. We haven't seen what's going to happen with food inflation yet. If grain products, if it starts rolling across between weather and what's happening in Europe. So I'll stop there but it's, it's nervous making, rather than we, no one is predicting where this is going at a national or state level yet. So, I'm just going to echo lens on what what's making me nervous and I put together a bunch of numbers but I'll just do them on what what it's hard for me I have to be a detective to figure out what's holding the out years together. And I'd rather not just have to do detective work I know you all have done this work and where you think you're going to fill the holes. Yeah, thank you. So I think those are exactly the right questions right focus area when we're talking about all the new initiatives that are being discussed in the budget document you know we do have the five year forecast. When I look at that five year forecast this is the high level the big picture budget. I'm not, you know I think there's some cautions when I look at that I don't think there's anything that's a stop at the high level. I think the area where we start to see some more. You know where we really need to buckle down or within the operating budgets, which again is Kathy said you can't really see all that detail, but at a high level in terms of our revenues matching our expenses. We seem to be in pretty good shape going forward. I think we try to emphasize it this year and we'll continue to emphasize that that we really need to focus on the operating budgets, because of inflation because of these new programs. As we all heard from many departments this year that they're stretched with all the new new responsibilities that they have. And that we really need to shore that up before we we take on new commitments. So I think you'll hear Paul and I echo that going forward. There's lots of new initiatives and they're things that are really worthwhile it's not like they're, you know they're things but you know I think doing for building projects in a decade, adding to new departments, the car plan that came out like to me that's, you know, maybe I'm crazy but to me that's that's 1010 years 15 years worth of work. I mean in terms of funding in terms of new things. You know I think Paul said earlier, you know usually do a building project once a decade. I think we're trying to do for in a decade because they haven't been done the prior three decades. So I think we just we have to keep that in mind as we, you know, we've got sort of these priorities which I think the council has stated that the EMS staffing crest program the for building projects de I think those are all sort of widely accepted priorities and then the carp as well, or at least making progress on the carp. So as we start talking about new things again it would be really helpful to keep keep those in the context of the stated priorities. Thank you for me. Yeah. I think as we go forward with this it's helpful to remember the damage mix up about one half 1% of the Commonwealth's population. So we, we think highly of ourselves actually we're a small place. We're trying to do some things that are a real stretch, and that's not to say that we shouldn't do them. It's my admiration that we're trying to do things. We're doing stuff that prop two and a half was designed to prevent was designed to keep governments from serving populations. A couple of concerns out there is inflation is is going to drive up buyer expenses. It's also going to drive up the value of housing, which is going to have an impact on taxes and I know that citizens are going to feel that they're going to feel that pinch if you know when their properties now all of a sudden worth 1112% more than what it was the previous year. What we have to pay attention to is the muni market because we're going to have to bond this stuff. And right now, things are sort of fallen out with munis people have been passing them by, which means that we may be facing higher interest rates and we've projected. So those are things that we've got to those are things that are way out there, we have to keep in mind and I appreciate the fact that there's a five year project. We're not seeing the budget in the budget book. But again, not seeing that detail. Not seeing how those for fire firefighter EMS staff come get folded into the budget. I think seeing some of that would be would be helpful, at least for me. So, as a geek. The other thing that I'll mention again. I do think that the town administration is under staff. I think the Hispanic control that Paul has is too large. I appreciate the fact that he's willing to roll staff off into new roles in new departments. And I said, I announced a couple of weeks ago was going to form the friends the finance department organization that helped promote that department and the need for staffing in there. So as we go forward, the thing that makes me nervous is when you apply the hit by a bus test. We don't have a lot of, we don't have a lot of depth. We don't have, I think we're not staffed as well as we should be on an administrative level. So that's my, that's my advocacy, not that I don't. You know, we're, we're messing with a wide variety of priorities and needs. I think having a community response program having worked at human services for 30 years. I think having a community response program is essential. I think having one that's cost effective is equally essential. So we need to be in a look at that are EMS ability is stretched firefighter ability is stretched. We need to be careful and look at that. So I want to thank you guys up Sean Paul Sonia for the huge amount of work you've done on this but like some of the other members on the finance committee I think it applies in my stomach over some of what's happening. So thanks. Yeah, since I see my hands going up I'll take a moment. I mean, as, as I said at the beginning of the meeting, raised this question yesterday and consulted with my vice chair about it and Kathy agreed that this was an important issue to bring forward and so I did on behalf of the committee with that endorsement. And I, you know, part of it goes back I do think to what you just said about proposition to an AF being the source or the beginning of sort of my analysis, because it does cap what we can raise ourselves. And we don't have the ability to do anything else. So, whether we would even choose if we had the ability to raise taxes more bio, we do have that by override but I think we're all anxious because of the recognizing the stress that our own residents are under and that that's a caution there too. We've survived the two and a half follow these years because the legislature is stepped up to the plate and has done as much as they could with local aid and I appreciate that that has enabled us to stay at two and a half percent for increases. But I always felt in the end the two and a half percent only works as long as inflation is low. And over the years, it has been relatively flat and we've been beneficiary of that. But we're in an inflation period where we're just we're just not certain whether that inflation is going to continue I think that it's been already mentioned today. So, I'm not sure the two and a half percent, assuming we achieve two and a half percent for growth in these next years is going to work and even when you do that, the projections going out were for a deficit. Not in the in the first years but further down the line. We have the other problem, which I don't think is necessarily a problem, but on the financial side it is. That is we have a very ambitious and creative community and there's a lot of other things that are out there in sort of the wish list of what we could do as a progressive community to make the lives of everybody better. And so, whether it be on the reparation side or on the side of doing more to implement the climate action plan. Or any or to try and follow up with additional CSWG recommendations and create a cultural center, BIPOC cultural center, any youth center that was recommended. There's just a lot of good ones out there and we, you know, I think that two and a half percent. It's questionable whether it can keep us where we are, and then what do we do with all of the other recognized done met needs. So, all of that makes me nervous about the future, and I think we just have to be willing to recognize that I don't know what else we can do, because we are where we are. Well, we have Sean and Paul in the room. One of the questions that has been brought up is the price of homes and the sale. And through a reassessment some, some, please tell me what year it was. And then for those of us that continue to live in our homes but if we sold them, the price would go up. Will our homes be reassessed in a shorter time period than expected or when will they be reassessed. So I won't get this perfect, but our assessor would do a better job of it, but there's there's sort of cyclical valuations where every so many years they're looked at. But the thing that's happened recently is the assess value of a home has to be within so, so much of a range of the market value, or the sales value that the assessor saying and if that assess value gets, I think it's 10% out of whack with what they're doing with sales, then they have to do an immediate adjustment in the upcoming year. And so what you just experienced was an immediate adjustment because sales values have been going up so rapidly that the assess values were getting too far below that. You'll probably see another one of those this coming year again because of how rapidly sales prices have been going up. But it does raise the assess values, we're still capped at two and a half so it doesn't mean the town is is raising more from the tax levy. But it does sometimes result in and volatility in terms of how the taxes are being distributed if some houses rise at a faster rate. But it doesn't mean we're collecting taxes at a higher rates, it's still capped at two and a half. Thank you. So you'll likely see the tax rate that the, the positive side of this is that you'll likely see the tax rate either stay flat or go down a little bit, which for Amherst is actually pretty important because Amherst were, you know, we're one of the higher tax rates in the Commonwealth and the thing that we're always mindful of is there's a $25 cap on the tax rate that we can't literally raise taxes over $25 per per thousand. So this we've seen the tax rate drop a little bit and hope to see that keep going that way. Michelle. I'm hesitant to ask this but I'm going to do it anyway. I don't want to get into the weeds but I am curious about the partnership agreements that we've been discussing and I know that they're in negotiations. Is there, I have no sense of what they would yield, like, zero cents like $100 or millions of dollars you know so I'm just wondering is there state percentages or something that are that we can look to to say okay, in our best case scenario, this is what we would receive in our worst case scenario this is based on some regulations or are these numbers purely privately decided upon in the negotiation process. So these are our voluntary agreements that the institution's entering to with the with the locality so there's, there's no baseline you know we do look at other locations that are similar to us so we look at North Hampton and Smith we look at Burlington Vermont with the University of Vermont so we can look at some similar communities. So there's no, there's no, you know specific framework. I think the best framework for us to look at is what have we done in the past because we've had these now for 20 years maybe longer. And so you know we look to see what's been done in the past and then the narrative that's happened and try to build upon that. So we're in those discussions now so we can't speak to them too much. We hope to have them, you know wrapped up sometime in the not too distant future. We can't say too much while we're still discussing them with them. Understandable if I could just ask the follow up so are the numbers from the past available somewhere publicly. Yeah, so I can I mean I can tell you in the past like in our specific agreement with the University of Massachusetts. There was a, I think the most recent agreement, which is no longer an effect per se. There was a reimbursement for ambulance services, which there was a formula that looked at the volume of calls that went to the university and so on. And that right now that pays about $400,000 per year to the town. And then there was a sort of general payment to the town of about $120,000, which was for sort of all the other services that the town provides that ladder payment has been sort of shifted, so they're no longer making that ladder payment to the town. Instead, there was an agreement reached to give $185,000 to the schools. So they're giving us more than under the previous agreement but it's coming to us differently I think that might been one of the questions that was asked. So, so the funds that Paul and I have at our discretion in terms of putting the budget together those did go down a little bit when that expired, but the overall funds coming to the town are higher, and the schools have more funds at their disposal. And sorry Andy one more follow up the Amherst College are those numbers available or has there been an agreement with Amherst College previously. Amherst College correct me if I'm wrong Paul Amherst College didn't have a formal written agreement we are looking to do that going forward so that that is also in the works to actually get everything put down into a formal document moving forward. But they also followed a similar ambulance reimbursement formula as you mass. And they, again, because it was not written down. They've been, you know, helpful in terms of like rounding up or not doing like the exact amount things like that but in terms of other contributions. I think it's just the ambulance payment. Sonya less I'm missing something. They used to make some donation to the school for a program. I'm so I shouldn't obviously I should know that. Yeah, they also contribute $75,000 to the schools each year. Also, again, there's not really a formal agreement currently but they give money to schools to support the family center and after school tuition vouchers. But, but that's where we're working right now with ultimately all three institutions to have a formal agreement with them about what to expect so that we have more predictability is and they have better predictability as well. And is that is there anything that this committee can do to help with that process is there any drafting of anything. Is there anything within our purview and of course I looked at Andy as the chair but that we could be doing to help move, particularly with Amherst college that process forward. Yeah, that now but yeah I think to be determined. Thank you. Court of public opinion can be loud. I hear you. Thank you. Come back to others because I see free hands up at this point and just in order. Bob. Yeah, I mentioned this in previous meetings, but my biggest concern about sustainability. People costs. I mean, that's the bulk of what we spend on an annual basis in town. And we have long term liabilities with OPEB and pensions that are people costs that will be in the future that we've already committed to. You know, we, we, you know, Sean in your responses and Paul you know you talk about, there's an uncertainty because we're engaged in collective bargaining now but I'd like to flip that around and say we have an opportunity because we're in collective bargaining to look forward about the people costs and make sure that we try to stay within bounds that are affordable. Because otherwise, we could just blow the budgets up, and then we'll really have to start cutting services so I just want to reiterate again my concern about my worry about people costs. And, you know, here's we have an opportunity now to try to address what the future will be on them. Thanks. And Andy maybe if I can step to that real quick just since we're having sort of a general conversation about the long term budget. So the two I think really important things that will be coming up one really far in the future but one not so far in the future is a budget school project that will consolidate three schools into two so that will be an opportunity, hopefully to identify some efficiencies that can help all operating budgets. The other one that's a little bit farther in the future until 2034 unless the stock market really goes crazy is our pension costs of Bob touch on our pension costs so we right now we are in a pretty large portion of our pension assessment is for all the past underfunding of the pension system in those in 2034, our pension assessment should begin to drop off pretty precipitously, which will be helpful. We sort of are planning at this point that that will then go into OPEB or at least a portion of that will go into OPEB to fully fund that liability at a faster rate than we currently are. It will be another opportunity to see some realize some structural cost savings and a pretty major way. Sean man. Thanks Andy. Sean knows I was going to make that comment about the school consolidation in terms of Bob's point as well and I guess I'm going to just raise something as a question and it'd be interesting hearing this committee's perspective on it, you know, definitely Sean and Paul but others as The school building committee right now is obviously trying to make a site selection, you know, we know there's a relatively small difference between the two projected sites. I think something in the in the ballpark of four four and a half somewhere between there. It was a difference on an early price projection for those two sites. But I think, you know, speaking about long term efficiencies and also opportunities for raising revenue and addressing other needs. You know, I just looking at sort of the discourse that's out there publicly. It does feel as though a lot of a lot of questions about what what to do with the other building are being folded into the selection of which site is the appropriate site for the elementary And so I'm just I'm wondering from a finance committee perspective if folks have any thoughts in terms of, you know, to use to use Bob's language in what way, you know, what we can have be an opportunity for the town fiscally in terms of the that decision might not be an easy answer but I thought I would ask the question. Yeah, we'll get other people's comments on it, but could be an opportunity for settings could be a liability if there's demands to use it for other purposes, whatever happens to taken building. And that depends on how we proceed with it. And it's one of the things that I think needs to be recognized, but I want to consider and continue on. Jennifer, have a morning. Good morning. I don't want to sidetrack, you know, but I wanted to pick up on Michelle's question regarding the strategic agreements or the partnership agreements with the particularly you mass I was going to, you know, actually request to meet with you Paul on the opportunity of the public meeting just to ask if or request that this be part of the partnership agreement with you mass. Last week in district three we had a meeting between almost 30 neighborhood residents and representatives from the town and the university and a major focus was the two new dormitories that are being built at the corner of Massachusetts this week and that will bring 800 additional students into precinct 10 I guess it's now precinct for a of district three, and the dorms are much more in the neighborhood than they really are located and what we think of as being campus, the campus and because you know again there will be 800 additional students that the only way they can get to downtown from the dorms is to walk through a quiet residential neighborhood is it was explained that University of Massachusetts police literally cannot set foot and do any patrolling outside of campus. So as soon as very soon after the students leave the dorm, they will no longer be literally in geographically in an area where the university can provide any security, and it will be completely dependent on the town, and the police officer. The police officer that was there explained how there really isn't the capacity to be able to really provide any kind of, you know, on the ground security for the students or the residents. So I wanted to ask if, if it's not too late in the negotiation with UMass in the partnership agreement, if the fact that the burden of these new dorms in terms of providing security to the students and the university is going to fall on the town if that could be part of the negotiation. So I can just add quickly the agreement always leaves the door open for new things arise or if circumstances change for further discussions to be held related to the agreement. So, too late to have that be part of the, I mean we know this is going to be a need the dorms are going to open in 2020 fall 2023, there will be 800 additional residents basically in the district. Yeah, I don't know if it's too late I guess the question, it would be what is the, what is it that we are. What is the, I think we'd have to discuss it more to find out what is the thing that we would be discussing we would be asking for. I mean just as an example, you know, I don't want to be labored this but currently at three in the morning, lots and lots of firecrackers went off at a student house on hearing. Oh, I'm sorry, cause I'm fearing and sunset and fearing street between sunset and university is actually University of Massachusetts Street, and their security was there but they literally couldn't walk, you know they couldn't come whatever it was the 50 feet to be of assistance until the Amherst police department got there. So it's not. You can imagine the situation. Thank you, we can talk further offline. Yeah. No, it is a difficult issue and some of it as I understand it has to do with policies within the university police department and their collective bargaining with their officers. So it is not a simple issue, but thank you for bringing it forward, Lynn. Yeah. Matt, and many other people I appreciate the ongoing question about the remaining school site. I want to be very, very clear in urging the fact that it is a decision of the school building committee to select which site. And if we start weighing in on what we might do with one site or the other, we start prejudicing their decision. And it has to be based on all of the unbelievable amount of information that they have received they are debating. They are looking at their weighing and only after they make that decision. By the way, the school then decides the other building is no longer something they need. Does it ever become a discussion of the town as to what to do with that other building. So we're several steps away from that. And I appreciate the universe, the town and the residents creativity about what might be done with that building, but we're not there. Because the school can the school building committee needs to be allowed to make the decision unencumbered as to which building is best the best site for the new school. Thanks. Thank you for calling with shell Kathy is your comment to be directly related to what's just down this discussion. I'll just do it as a footnote. Of course, I completely agree with what Lynn just said but we, we do have to get the voters to want to tax themselves for this building. And one of the selling points, a strong selling point is a green net zero climate building. And right now, we can save $250,000, because the two schools were no longer be operating that's that's the cost of their utilities every year that's annual. And that, so far we're saying accrues directly to the town budget. So, we just need to be careful going forward because that that will be a very that's how other towns have actually argued for photovoltaic they've said look you're getting something for your investing money and there's a return on it. So we need to protect those kinds of arguments. We need to get through the vote. You know, so this is going to be a big ask. And it's next spring, assuming MSBA approves our choice we still have these hurdles we have to go through it's a really complicated granting authority, which sometimes makes great footnotes on the sentences and sends it back and says would you rewrite the sentence so it's it's not just do they like what we're proposing but they want, they want to wordsmith it to so we do have to sell it. I mean sell it we have to make a good case for it is is what is the way I would say it's best foot forward. Thank you Michelle. I do agree about not encumbering or giving agent is giving the agency to the people that are that are going through the process. However, I do think from a proactive strategic standpoint it is really important for us to be looking at possible uses for the vacant property building as this decision is made. And I also just want to say that in the community. It's been noted that in a town council meeting last year. This conversation actually did occur and I think even when you may have been the one who raised the question about how the vacant property should be used, and what role the town council should have in in thinking about that. If we are addressing these questions I think it's important to remember that there is a history that's on the record, and that that is being raised in the community. Yeah. Okay, by one comment is I would distinguish several pieces one is who makes the decision but also that we get back to the question that we started with in this conversation which is forward to do. And we looking ahead, looking at all of the demands on our budget and what two and a half percent increase in the operating budget, and no more in the increases for the capital budget being driven largely by building projects that we're already committed to. And the increases in cost for things like asphalt which and other things just general inflation questions that the whole bundle of things that are happening and we have to be realistic about what we can afford to do in addition to what we might desire to do. Sean, you had so common that I want to get back to Alicia. Yeah I was just going to add that we also raised this during the four building project presentation, and it was raised in the sense of one of the items that would provide a buffer could potentially provide a buffer should estimates come in higher should things change. We raised the potential benefits of reduced operating expenses, you know, one of the concerns during that was that operating expense of operating budgets could get pushed out a little bit by capital, and the cost savings from operating one building versus two was identified as one of the things that provide some relief there. And then the other issue was just what if the interest rates come in higher things like that, and the potential revenue to be gained from one of the sites, or actually I think we identified central central fire stations potentially becoming available and then also one of either one of the school sites becoming available to actually generate revenue for the town is being one way to buffer those impacts. And you know, I think the thing we'll say is obviously things have changed for the worse since that presentation in terms of construction costs and interest rates. So I think again those things will be really important to consider. You know, when the count when when everyone makes their decision. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, so I also am wondering because I think this is an important conversation for us to have and I'm wondering like what is the time and the setting for this because I know the elementary school building committee will choose the site. And the, though, in our report to the MSBA, we do have to indicate what we plan to do with the vacated school. So I know that this is a decision and conversation that needs to happen sooner rather than later because that is something that we're going to have to submit to the MSBA at the end of this process. And so I also know the school committee is going to have their vote on consolidation as to whether or not they're going to consolidate the schools. So we don't know the outcome of that yet but I'm assuming that they would do so. And I'm wondering is that when they would have the conversation as to whether or not they would keep a building or when that happened like I'm looking for a timeline here. Basically is pretty much what I'm asking is how all of these things because they all depend on each other right and then after this also the outcome of all of those decisions will affect our budget. Also, looking at it as I would like to see us looking into how retaining those build the extra town properties might affect our budget. I would have to know what those decisions were first. So if that makes sense. So I guess I'm looking for like a clear timeline as to when these things happen and where they happen. Because I do think that ultimately it will turn into an important conversation for the finance committee to have and possibly some research being done on the budget effects for years to come in terms of utilization versus not utilization of those properties. I think Kathy may know I think Kathy was going to jump in on the sort of decisions that have been happened but I'll just quickly add. So one of the ways that the capital approval program, one reason why it's it's more balanced now than it used to be is because again we were sort of operating under the assumption that whatever school is not selected, we were not going to invest in significant capital funds into that site because those schools need so much. I mean they need new electrical systems they need both need roofs at some point in the near future. You know that they're not accessible in many ways and we had accessibility study done they have lots of work on accessibility there I mean they have really significant capital needs. So just one impact that's really, I think easy to see is that it would add a lot of money to the capital improvement program at a time where we are trying to actually reduce what we're spending from the capital improvement program because a bigger portion is going to go towards these four projects. So we actually have a period of time or we have to sort of tighten the belt in terms of other capital needs outside of those four building projects and this would add a significant significant new, you know a new building to to maintain. Beyond what we were planning. Kathy. Can I just follow up to that because Sean brought up something that I had meant to mention but I forgot because I had so much in my head about the capital improvement project because then my next question was going to be. Is that the time we would look at some of these things because I know at one point both of the schools were on the capital improvement plan. And I think that was prior to us making the decision that we would move forward to to our current plan. And if, and I know that we're having like the public forum and we're going to start going over that that soon also. And so again, like I think what would be helpful for me at this time, despite all of these general comments I'm making is a timeline as to like when these decisions are made because I think a lot of them affect each other. So and real quick this this won't be, I mean this won't be a decision pointer but I think it'll contribute is, we will be updating the four projects, the four building projects presentation, given sort of the new realities that we're dealing with. And I think that will contribute to whatever discussion happens from there in terms of, you know, can we maintain these buildings within the amount of money that would be available for capital. Kathy. I'll just on MSBA. My understanding is we need to give an indication but we don't need to sign in blood. I think communities go through resource evaluation and our first action as a council way back when was I don't know what what point we got the East Street school, but was to take the East Street school and leverage it, and now we've put it into a multi housing units so that sat on our books for quite some time so I think the urgency on the one thing we have to do is we have to choose a site for the school. But the rest is they asked for sort of an indication of what you might be doing, and they, the granting authority. I can't under overestimate under underscore enough on how stingy they are with their money. They know the stress they're putting towns under. So I just go, that's your problem it's, it's, it's, we're not going to get the kind of matching grants that we had thought we were going to get because of the way they're capping the awards. So I just, you know, stay tuned but we will have that more concretely by the early fall on the turn current timeline. Hello question. Yeah, thank you because I mean all of these comments are helpful but I still think I'm maybe missing what I'm looking for and that's just so what's happening in my head is so we would have to indicate to the MSBA in the early fall what we possibly may do with the school committee doesn't have to be what we actually do with it but what we're leaning towards doing with it, but who would make the indication as to what we might possibly do with it if it wasn't the council. And how would the council have an indication if the school committee hasn't already made the vote as to whether or not they're going to retain the school. So what I'm like confused about is when do we think do we have like, are these on agendas and we're going to be voting on these things soon or like I'm just confused as to how we're going to come to that. It won't be super helpful, but the good news is there's so we won't know for sure that there will even be a school available until the vote happens in the spring so, you know, once the vote happens that exclusion vote or whatever the council decides to do with it. Then you'll know for sure that there will be a school available. Who will make the indication that goes in our report to the MSBA is that something that the school, like we will decide with the NISCO that we don't need any other input from any other bodies. I'm just trying to decide where the authority lies like within which committee in which process we we sign the just the simple answer Alicia, that they're signatories to everything that goes to MSBA it's not to this go Paul is going to put up on it, the chair. We are right now for the school project. The, there is not a town council sign off on this document. And that's why I said it's not binding. It's an indication. And so we can write the word, write whatever that language is pretty broadly because they're not going to come back and say oh this is what you said you're going to do with the other building. And we don't have that discussion. I'm just saying that that doesn't have to be tied to the trying to get the grant, the granting authority to agree to give us the money, so that we can go out and get the vote to do the school. You know, I can send you the last document that was sent for the project that didn't go forward and see what wording they put in it. We don't have a separate talk about, you know, who needs to do what but but Paul and Sean and others have looked at every piece of wording that went into any document that went forward. And we can't bind the town as the school as the building committee we can just do the building committee. Part of it. And then Jennifer. Yeah, Alicia, I have to say I just totally appreciate your questions, because I've asked many of these questions along the way. And it's the whole MSBA process has been a learning process for me. And the whole issue of how the school may move from being a school property to a town property has been a learning process for me. So you're asking questions that I think are incredibly relevant to what the town residents and the council has come to understand. And part of my reason for wanting to understand them is the same thing you and other residents are looking at and that is, is there any use for an existing empty building and is there any use for an existing piece of land. And the answer is, I don't know. Okay, and as soon as it becomes relevant to a town council discussion, then it would go on an agenda, but we don't even know when we don't know what. And that's kind of where we are, it's a learning process we've all been engaged in. So my questions in the past about, well, what about this vacant school have been very much like the ones you're asking and my learning process has been very much like the one we're all now going through. Jennifer, I'm sorry. Yeah, thank you for being patient. That's okay. I just want to say that I, in terms of, so will there be a discussion of how the the vacated building might be used before the funding goes before the public on the ballot for the override because I do think there are residents for whom how the vacated building will be used will actually weigh into their decision, you know, for better or worse, in how they are going to vote. I mean, there are many people that feel like we really need a, you know, a youth center, a senior center, and that if they knew that that the vacated school building could be used for some of these services that they really, really want that that might actually be a factor in how they vote so I think the timing is important here. Yeah, no, it's a good point but it's also a very difficult one to deal with because we get back to the question of what we'd like to do and what we can afford to do is to separate questions and I'm not sure what we can afford to do given what we already talked about this morning regarding where the budgets are going in the future and the other thing that people who are voting on whether or not to support a debt exclusion override will be voting on is the effect on their taxes. And to the extent that we make decisions that are going to otherwise limit their taxes so that we get they get the most bang for the buck that that's a thing too and they're making essentially the same decision then that we are the desire for the senior center at the old site for example versus the cost and you know it's a difficult balance and I agree I'm just relating what's been, you know, expressed to me. I think it's important, but it comes out on both sides, unfortunately, which was an easy answer in other words. Lisa, and then I want to try and draw to close. So I also wanted to quickly emphasize what Jennifer just said because I had a similar thought but I think that that also is something that the school building committee can look at and think about because that's going to be really like what they should be thinking about when we're deciding how to do outreach and get people excited about the project when we do come to the end. I also want to go back to my previous questions because what I'm still missing is the timeline and I hear that like we may possibly be not me making this decision for a long time so there is no timeline is that like the answer to my question because I'm still slightly confused as to how we plan this then. So do we just like wait for this to happen and then we decide what we're going to do, or do we have like a plan for either which turnout just in case or because I'm just like confused as to how we will prepare for the outcome if we don't discuss it or anything about it until we get all the way to that point. Because again, I think that we would want to be able to study specifically how these decisions will affect our budget moving forward, and our find our town finances, and also like we gave 500 K of the ARPA salary for a feasibility study to the rec department. And so if they do a feasibility study, which we don't know the outcome of that yet but if it comes to be that it is feasible, where are we going to house it, and when is that going to happen, and are we going to be prepared. And so I think that there are so many things that we should be looking into. And so again, I think a timeline would be helpful like when and who should be looking into these things, that's what I don't know, like I don't know where to put these ideas. And I guess like I know we're coming to an end so I don't necessarily need this answered right this minute. But if there's somebody that can like write down this timeline or like, is there a deadline or a time of the year that we look at these things. That would be helpful for me. That's actually a helpful way to get to conclusion because maybe we should have a discussion or Lynn needs to have a discussion with Paul and with Sean about what is the timetable for all of the pieces and what decisions have to be made at which point. The extent that they're financial I can participate as finance committee chairmen, the extent that their MSBA related Kathy should be participating as chair of that committee. But it probably ought to start with council president and town manager and finance director trying to figure out what decisions to need to be made in what order. I agree with that. I accept the challenge with serious concern. And just know that there could be more question marks in timeline then there might be answers but I absolutely accept the challenge and I do think a lot of it depends on Sean's timing and ability to update the plan for the capital expenditures which includes not just the large projects, but includes what we put aside every year for other capital projects as well. And then the other thing I wanted to notice that this is for the minutes that Jennifer Todd has left the meeting but we still have a quorum of the council. Sean, thank you and then I'm going to bring this to a close. Just two really quick things. I just wanted to clarify the 500,000 from ARPA. And it must be right. I think I saw it written down somewhere in a way that was confusing but just for the record, it's not for the 500,000 and for feasibility it's for implementation of whatever outcome there may be with it. So the original intent of that 500,000 was to solicit outside groups to potentially create a youth empowerment center to provide some them some grant funding as sort of startup costs, or transition costs as they would come in like a YMCA or a Boys and Girls Club. We transitioned to study in an in house program first before we would move forward with that. So just, again, not the whole amount is not for a feasibility study. And the second question we so I think today, if Kathy is here today or tomorrow we're supposed to get updated cost estimates on the school building project again I've been a little reluctant to dive into it too far until we get solid cost estimates now that we have the designers on board and as Kathy can attest, they're changing frequently the cost estimates because it's just how volatile the market is right now. I think we will have a solid basis of cost estimates for the school project to move forward with, and then your future so I'll work with Paul and Lynn to come up with a timeline. Thank you. So where we are at is that there's a motion on the floor to recommend to the council to adopt the FY 23 budget as recommended by the town manager. We have had no motions to amend that and either to an amendment could be to reduce any section of budget or to increase in the one area that's permitted by state law. So I'm going to just keep an eye now really closely for hands going up if there is no motion. To amend, then we're going to move to a vote on the motion that's on the floor. I see none so I'm therefore, I think we're at the point of voting for the motion on the floor and I am going to pick in the middle and just go alphabetically in order but started with Michelle. Yes. Kathy. Yes. I'm a yes, Alicia. Yes. Then. Whoops. Yes. Bob. Sorry, support. Yeah. Yes. So you're supporting and Bernie. Support. Okay, so the motion has been passed unanimously with support indicated from all resident members and a lot of good discussion that will be, I'm going to work hard in the method that's described, I will submit a report within the next by tomorrow to the council that states the motion and explains a little bit about our process and a further report in explanation will be coming and I will work on the draft and get the draft to the committee. I'm going to move to the committee, not to counselors and other counselors so that nobody expects it. Who's not a member of the committee, and I will welcome any comments received as I do in all of the reports. Lynn. I'm going to go back to my questions covered. And the other thing I need to do is adjourn the council because we now only have six counselors in the room. So the council is adjourned 1148. And so I go back to my question, do we have all the sections of the budget draft covered. And if not, what else needs to get done and by whom. And when do you want our absolutely want our drafts. Thank you. Michelle's. Yeah. At this point, I think that I just need to do it by email because I don't want to put anybody in the spot during the meeting itself. But I will try and address that question in an email. I think that's probably the fairest way to do it. I need to take a break for just a second. I'm going to ask Kathy is vice chair just if you are able to, to just go for a moment and start the discussion as to when we can next meet. Because I think everybody knows what the date problem is and I'll be right. What I'd be happy to what I, what I think was the June 7th date did not work. The morning time didn't work. So what I don't know is whether Andy said out alternatives. For a different time, you know, either later on. So Alicia was, was it you that the juice June 7th they didn't work for. Yeah, I can't do the morning time. I can do after three, like I could do like a three to five meeting that day but otherwise I would have to do a different day. So, let me ask what was on. So, so that is next month. Let me ask on my calendar that's fine so what is three to five on June 7th look like for, let me see. What should I do should I say raise a hand if you can't do it. Or you can, if everyone raises a hand if they can do it. I think. Yes, I think we got a. Okay, I'll tell Andy we just found June, Andy is back and his hand is not up. I'm not sure what's being asked. Okay, so either June, June 7, three to five, Alyssa can make it and it looked to me like everyone said that that time and day so it's keeping it on to say the seventh. It's a definite maybe for me, I don't. The morning meeting would have worked the afternoon meeting is if he but I'm, you know, I'm not a vote so let's go forward and schedule your meeting and if I can make it in I'll make it. So Michelle is your hands still up on it. It didn't work for you, or. Well, just selfishly, given that will be to discussing reparations it would be, I'd love for everybody to be able to be there. But I also had something on my calendar and I don't know if this is a council thing mass safe. Is that anything Lynn ringing about to you. It's two to three but which wouldn't really, but I don't I don't know what it is so I'm just. It's not. I have no clue what it is. Sometimes that happens. When you figure this now. So, I mean three to five is fine for me but again would love for the most participation. But it looks like there's one person who's iffy Bernie and everyone else said yes, is that correct. Okay. Yeah. So Andy that's that's what I did what that's what I did while you were going for your 30 seconds. Thank you. I appreciate it. Solve the problem. This is sorry to interrupt. Paul and I might have a library building committee meeting on that day. So if we do, we would just have to leave a little early. I don't think we have one this week Paul so normally that would mean we would have one next Tuesday at 430. Do we do, do we do have a library building committee meeting at 430 on the seventh. So if it's three to five just we would have to try to get through the things that would require us to be there. Which is fine I think we probably can. So the agenda is going to be basically. Unless there's a large amount of questions or comments it's all about capital improvement. Program and the reparations discussion, at least we need to get as far as being able to respond something to the in the first report on that issues or were there other issues. Anything else. Yeah, we also may have Centennial because of being accepted into the state revolving fund program we have to make sure we have funding for the entire project in place. So that that would be another agenda item. So it's capital reparations and Centennial. So capital, we've already discussed that with the finance committee at two separate meetings so that one I imagine less. It'll depend on what comes up at the forum, but that one may be. Yeah, exactly. And we're just holding off voting on the capital as a recommendation to the council till after the forum, but the vote at the council will be the same night as the budget vote, which is the 13th. And that's why we were trying for the seventh for meetings so that it would have a natural flow to it. And then, because we're desiring to have only one meeting during the month of June, we wanted to get reparations and other issues like Centennial into the same meeting. Michelle your hands up. There are members of the HRA that would like to contribute to the discussion, Andy and I was going to speak to you about this offline but how do you recommend that that would happen, do I have to call a meeting of the HRA to be here during that discussion of the discussion, or I mean I know it gets kind of, I don't like when people are getting brought in and brought out so I'm looking to Lynn and to Andy about that so I make sure I post that. If you have a quorum that's going to be there for the discussion, you should post a joint with the finance committee, we can bring them into that portion of the meeting, and then you join them and we'll go on. Perfect. Thank you. So, is there anything else. Is the other thing that I'm getting a little bit concerned about but I'll talk with Athena about this separate discussion offline as we need to move forward with minutes. Getting a stack of minutes backed up. Are there other issues that people would like to raise them just to look at hands and that includes whether Paul is shot up anything you'd like to just to the committee at this point. Otherwise, I think we're ready to adjourn in looking seeing no hands. Coming up I guess that point then we are ready to adjourn and I so I do adjourn the committee and thank you all it's been a very good discussion and. Thank you Paul and thank you, Sean for your help and being so informative including your responses to the questions which I can help the discussion that we're going to incorporate into the report about concerns about the future but recognizing that this is solid that we support the budget. That's proposed for FY 23 and we recognize these issues, obviously, they're going to be with us for a while. So thank you.