 Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City. You're in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background. It's a packed house, I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante's on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis. He'll be back on theCUBE, but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it off day two with me. No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's really exciting. What you guys have got over here, very fun. We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. No, I mean, the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel it as people walk in and see what the future looks like for the telecoms industry. It's really exciting. And you've been a great job on the main stage. We really love on your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually, the keynotes are going on. We're going to have DR maybe fly by the set later. We're going to check that out. But let's check out this video tape of, this is telcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back. We'll talk about it. TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Ericsson space at MWC 21 and for building Cloud City in just 100 days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is their unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston, or DR, as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live, caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC 21. About 100 days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Ericsson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're gonna have three awesome experiences. We're gonna talk about the new subscriber experience. We're gonna talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. And I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months and we didn't know what MWC 21 was gonna be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go, we plan this amazing experience that we call Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud and telco. The second part of Cloud City Live is the queue. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud. Hosted by John Furrier and Dave Valente, Dave and John are gonna talk to a variety of guests focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk said on his mission to Mars, I like Elon Musk. I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements. And this year is no different. At this year's MWC, to Togi, a startup that I invested $100 million in, will be launching. To Togi is introducing two products to the market this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement engine, coupling your network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that to Togi is introducing is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM form Open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show floor. The public cloud is an unstoppable megatrend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. Sonating insight into the origins of telco DR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry, and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. Okay, thanks for rolling that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royce, and she's a star. I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision, and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud. This is actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. No, it really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting, and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months, it's that we need that in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. And I love the fact that she so takes a tiger by the tail because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here. And I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson who was with Amazon Web Services. She was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector role in DC and around the world. She opened up Regents in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman. She was just a power player and she was exceptional leader. ICDR doing the same thing. And people aren't going to like that. I tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? No, of course, it's always the way with pioneers. So isn't it? And then in time, people thinking, what is going on? We don't like change. Why are we being shaken up? But actually afterwards in retrospect, they think, oh, okay. I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. Making things happen. That's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February. But there's also a hybrid event, a lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual. You got a lot of content on virtual sites. In person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show. Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. Okay, we're back here in theCUBE. We're on the main floor. I'm here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one. I was watching your presentations and it's fireside chats. You've been hosting awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. Yeah, no for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing. And in 10 years, it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great. Everyone's excited. It's new content every day. And that's the thing. It's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a physical event. So it's since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and it hasn't happened since February 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry because of COVID. And people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation, migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though, John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. It has changed in the last two years. We know that. But what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to this show for a very long time, over a decade and a half. And it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving. And a lot of people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting, that this show is turning into a consumer-like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and fees. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday. He said, vehicle e-commerce is coming. I'm like, what the hell is vehicle-key e-commerce? And you could be on your app driving down the freeway and go, hey, I want some food. Instead of having it delivered to you, you order it and you pick it up. So that can be happening now in real time. You can do all kinds of other things. So a lot of new things are happening. Yeah, that's exciting. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry then? Is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer-focused, is there anything we should be worried about in that space? Well, I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that you don't see. And we've got DR on the main stage right here. Look at this. We're sort of walking out of the confidence of a pro. Yeah. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. No, well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see soon she walked out. That is what she tends to do today. I love her mojo. She's got a lot of energy. And back to the show. I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. I mean, even when Apple was tainted, they were about to shut down. They were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back Apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a seminal iPod with a seminal moment. Then the iPhone, it's just a restless history. That kind of disruption is coming. You're going to see that here. Oh, it's exciting though, isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof. But actually, I wanted to ask you something as well because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about Telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about? Why, as you're in AWS and Google Cloud, why do they want to have a slice of the pie? Well, I think they're hot and heavy on the fact that Telco is a ripe opportunity. And it used to be this boring, slow-moving glacier. It's almost like global warming now, the icebergs are melting and it's going to just change. And because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone. It's a commercial opportunity because it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where stadiums packed, everyone gets bars on their Wi-Fi but can't get out, can't upload their pictures to Instagram. Why? Because it's choking on the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning and it could be double zero or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different. We want something new. You did notice an open run is something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've heard quite a few of our speakers over here at Cloud City Live mention open run. What is it all about, John? Because why all the buzz if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about open run? That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. Open run is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux foundation has been the driver for most open source software. So they're trying to bring open software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas. We need more transceivers. We need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these proprietary aspects. What have we looked at? So on Wednesday we've got a great keynote from Philippe Longbois who is CEO and founder of P1 Security and he's coming to talk to us about cyber security within the cloud and within Telco. So you just mentioned there, open run is all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? I think it's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in a sense that could be excluded by hackers but it could be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said cloud's not secure, open source isn't secure and as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. And it's interesting isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security threats but actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech and they were saying actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment we are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being batted away but the number is probably the same as it always is. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because it's more volume but it's pretty much the same. And look at this money involved, they're organized. There's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomware at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government that's at individual freedom. So security is huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. Yeah for sure. And it's again about collaboration isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration the industries aren't going to be able to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk from Philippe on Wednesday. I was just saying security don't download that PDF if you don't know where it came from. The phishing is always good. Well we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live. We're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience, Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the action. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. I'm Daniel Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDR. But you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about Telco? It's go time. Let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up and to the right. Totally amazing. But where's Telco? Dare I add our stocks to this awesome chart? Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, American Mobile and Zane Group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep, I'm talking directly to you, senior Telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T than to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in Telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people. You are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street to finance all of it. You Telco execs are amazing at all those things. But because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far, you haven't had to. Every Telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's MPS is in the 30s too. Their mobile operating are just as terrible as yours. Everyone sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost RPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting to WeChat, WhatsApp, and the other OTT apps. But it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or TAM of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, how do we make the customer love this? Like, Netflix has easy monthly cancellation. Amazon does no questions asked returns. Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive, they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their MPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your 30s MPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you wanna have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, then network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm gonna show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now, let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscribers disposable income, movies, food delivery, financial services. Who are they and why does Wall Street give them such high valuations and like them so much? Well, first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You, hello. What I'm saying is that if you've got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAMs they throw around, you'd be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU without having to double the CapEx to build out the network, I say to myself, hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get it. For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a Southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focus started in rideshare, but then leveraged its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality and investing. ARPU is now larger than the telcos ARPU in countries where they compete. And they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with valuable services that helped grow your ARPU. That would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, DR, your pie in the sky sounds great, but it has no chance of success. Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Tatogi that is gonna help carriers build world-class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily act of users. It's not the average order value. It's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user. That's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top-up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to. Their business depends on it. They have to be customer-focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app every day multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences, like Apple credit cards, no information-required application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer-friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great App Store ratings because they do simple things, like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. Hmm, what do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, while you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day, you have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to, your crappy over-customized on-premise solutions make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it, the public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's gonna help you do it, Tatogi. Tatogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Tatogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Tatogi allows a carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have, but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focused to being customer focused. Tatogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive capex investment. Tatogi is gonna help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Tatogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be SoftBank? I'm investing in Tatogi because it's gonna enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage, which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your arpu. And once you do that, all those telco evaluations will go from down here brrrr to up here. And so, I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts. And I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click eh. Everyone says no way, telcos can't do it. Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with $100 million because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well, I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Tatogi and super apps are fundamentally changing the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Tatogi has to offer and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because Tatogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network-centric to being customer-centric, boom. If you wanna make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network-focused guys like the other telcos. Instead, you will be competing against the customer-focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you. You need Apple level loyalty. That bar is Uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of MPS in the 30s, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile operating in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Tatogi will make that possible. I'm gonna help you every step of the way starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. Okay, we're back here in the cube here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier. Chloe Richardson, filling in for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Daniel Royston. We just heard her and Huawei. Major action, Major, pump me up, punch in the face. Wake the heck up, Cloud people. Cloud is here, she didn't pull any punches. No, and I mean, the thing is, John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. And you heard her up there. If you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the Cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry's going to just give it up. There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight. Who will win? Who will win, but also who will build the next big thing? Someone needs to die in the media conversations. It's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead, but it keeps living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is telcos already acknowledged that they need to change. And the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration, look at Apple, they got their own processors and Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out. You got Qualcomm, you got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source. And I'm telling you, the cloud is just going to drive that bus right down Cloud Street and it's going to be in Cloud City, everywhere. And it's going to be peeping on the horn as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me, what does that mean? That means basically in mature markets and growing markets, things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. So the telco's been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing, but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone off for too long. Cloud is a growth market and it's about building, not just operating. And you got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together. Builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say wartime, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and the ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. No, of course, is it similar to the old sales adage of Hunter versus farmer, the parallels? Yeah, I mean, there's a mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, replatform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought, roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company which is super hot in the United States, a lot of roll ups going on with private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or replatform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. Yeah, sure, it's interesting there, isn't it? Because when we think of telco and tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad people process technology and we think the process and technology really take the forefront here. But like you said there, people are also so important because you don't have this right balance. You're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously it's got right on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, I'm interested to hear what that means for education. So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations, establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telco is now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society's changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at during COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our assets and everyone survived because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad Zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well, but for the most part, we survived and they really saved everybody, my opinion. So they should get kudos for that, but now they're dependent upon healthcare, education. People care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom's doing. That's why the edge is got trillions of dollars up for grabs, but education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree, you can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays $100,000 a year, American. You can make 100,000 pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs and people to fill them qualified. Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cybersecurity leader who was saying a similar thing. There are now three million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skills shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Because it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telecom's is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think to actually bring people in? I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university if they don't have to. Why spend the dough if you don't, money if you don't have to, you can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me, it's the relationships, the mentorship, you start to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear courseware. Nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now if they have to get a certificate or degree and a accreditation, no problem, but communities are out there, so that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. For sure, and also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't they? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into Telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at Telco to again drive forward, just like DR is saying, it's all about the next big thing. Daniel is also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area, so it's like, if you go to the school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now the jobs that are available weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. So you could, the democratization of the internet now is from a job standpoint is people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship and American immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. It's interesting you mentioned that John because we can't have more than five years experience in this space, we know that. But in telco, there is a problem and maybe it's, again, it's a flipped problem where telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition to the new skill set happening one. But two, I think you got to be like a chip engineer. You can't learn that online. But if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer. There's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely paths you can specialize. Space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on. I see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on a virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And Daniel Rosen always says, who's going to happen first? Mars, Colony, or Telco adopting public cloud. Some people think Mars will happen first, but. What do you think, John? I think Telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud. And the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret. It's fun to watch everyone jockey for the positions. Yeah, no, no, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip. And I wonder if with the edge we can really enhance this acceleration of product development, this efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times, John. Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? Hybrid is everything now. So we're the hybrid cube. We've got hybrid cloud. Exactly. You've got hybrid Telco. Because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. That is critical dynamic. And you're seeing it. Like virtual reality, for instance, now you're seeing things. I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. Exactly. You got companies like Roblox went public recently. Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, gamers. So all good stuff. Chloe, great to be with you here on theCUBE. And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. Great. We're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team. We're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City. And this is theCUBE from Cloud City. Back to you, Adam in the studio.