 So, I think we may start. Can you all hear me? Yes, okay. So, first of all, thank you for being with us on this webinar, which is the last one for the fall term hosted and offered by Eden and NAP, Network of Academics and Professionals from the European Distance and Learning Network. I will give you a brief introduction related to NAP, the Network of Academics and Professionals, and then I will leave the floor to our wonderful host today, Tim Coglan from the Open University UK. So, if you are connected, please drag the pink arrow to the place where you are connected from so that we can understand where is the audience based today. Anyway, you know that the webinar will be recorded and you will find the recording on our website afterwards. Anyway, aside with my presentation, if the secretariat can show the presentation, I will tell you some brief information related to our Network of Academics and Professionals and some other information related to the next and incoming events offered by the NAP. I can see my presentation. Here it is, here it is. So, my name is Antonella Poce. I thank you all, know me so far, and I teach Experimental Pedagogy at the University of Roma 3 that you see is indicated here. And I chair the steering committee of the Network of Academics and Professionals from the European Distance and Learning Network. What is the NAP? It is a network that supports individual members in the association provide effective meeting and communication forum. That is our main objective, the one of facilitating interaction and communication among the membership is coordinated, as I was telling you by steering committee, which is elected by a ballot of NAP members. And actually, you will see that in really these days we will open a new election procedure because this steering committee, which is indicated here, and that is the steering committee that is in charge at the moment, will be completely re-elected and changed. We are reaching the end of our mandate, so it is time for anyone of you who is interested and is desiring to participate, to be active in Eden and in the NAP, especially to participate in the election ballot to be part of the new NAP. As I was telling you, these are the main objectives of being part and being active part of the NAP. Another important role of participating in the NAP is that of finding partners, start new research consults. So it's very, very productive being part of such a network. There's, of course, a NAP members area in our website and you can connect here, you can have a look at our area here. And the benefits, as I was saying, are different, besides the one of being part of the community and participating with starting new, different projects. Of course, you can delegate up to 30 individuals in the NAP to the conferences and events that Eden organizes. Of course, you can attend conferences that reduce fees. You have free access to electronic versions of Eden conferences proceedings. You can use, of course, the Eden logo and you get lots of information about the community activities. And this is actually a true benefit. We try to, as a steering committee, to use different channels to establish this contact, this relationship that we need to support and which is productive for research, for development in the area of interest that we share. Two different channels. First of all, the social media and the Eden chat. Tonight, we will have an Eden chat at 6 p.m. Don't forget to connect. We work to support professional development and these webinars on the themes of interest are addressed to this main aim. We try to work on the improvement of the website where the different information are stored and, of course, we try to listen to our members' idea. We also have a strong connection with the Council of Fellows that is another network, a very important network within the Eden which support us with their ideas and scientific direction if we can use this word. And, of course, we all share, as I was saying, the same objectives and the main opportunity to meet and interact face to face are, of course, the annual conferences. And I'm very pleased to announce here our next annual conference that is, as you can see, focused on a very up-to-date topic, human and artificial intelligence for the society of the future, inspiring digital education for the next team, student generation. So, lots of very interesting inputs will come out of that conference, I'm sure. And the conference will be held in Timintoara in Romania from June 21st to June 24th. So, check the website and be ready to submit your proposal and participate in the conference. Now, I think that here are other information to connect with us. Here you have all my details. So, for whatever other curiosity or interest, please contact me. And now it's really time to leave the floor to Tim. And I ask Tim to introduce himself and to start his contribution, which will be very, very involving. Thank you so much, Tim. Right. Thank you. Can you hear me okay? Just checking. Yeah. Great. Okay. Yeah, thank you very much, Antonella. And thanks, everyone, for joining and listening. I hope this is an interesting talk for you. So, a little bit of background. Earlier in the year, I was asked to give a talk at a conference on museums and accessibility. And actually, that's where we met Antonella. We were both giving talks. And the topic was around inclusive innovation, particularly in the museum space in that case. But it's one of a few times recently where we've kind of started looking back over projects that either I've done or that have been done by my research group over its history. So, we were also involved in writing a book, which is kind of a retrospective on the group, which should be out soon, and things like that. So, it starts you thinking, which is, I think, really useful is going back over some past research projects and actually trying to define what it was that we were trying to achieve and the ways in which we achieved it. So, I kind of developed this talk around some principles and some projects just to get thinking about that. And I'm very happy if people have questions or thoughts to put those in the chat box. And as we go along, I can raise those or we can talk about them at the end. So, as Antonella said, my name is Tim Coglan. I'm a lecturer in the Institute of Educational Technology, IET, which is part of the Open University. And actually one of the projects I'll talk about here was from a prior role where I worked at the University of Nottingham on a large institute called Horizon, which looked at digital economy research. But mostly this is focused on the types of research we do in IET at the Open University. And that really kind of comes from the Open University mission really, to be open to people, places, methods and ideas. And really, as the mission suggests, we are aiming to provide high quality education to all who wish to have it. And it's that message of inclusion, pedagogic innovation and partnership that really is part of what IET has done for the past 40 years. So, long before my involvement, but that this has continued to be our aims. And so, to give a little background about what that means for our audience of students, we have currently 20,000 students declaring disabilities, so at any one time we have that many students studying with us who have declared a disability of some kind to us. We're open to anybody regardless of their qualifications, so obviously like other Open Universities, we don't look to have a set of bar for students to be able to join us, which is really important, but of course brings its own challenges in terms of preparing students and ensuring that they are able to study effectively. We also work with a lot of students in prisons and secure environments. And a lot of our students combine work and study. Studying part time to maybe improve their lives or just to understand a new subject while they work. And really that adds again to this idea that we need to develop people's confidence, study skills, digital skills, and these kind of things in ways that are probably true elsewhere in the HE sector, but it's maybe emphasized a little more for us. So, as I said, I work in the Institute of Educational Technology, which has existed almost since the beginning of the university. So in the olden days, this was very much around how do we use audio recordings or TV broadcasts or all these kind of things. And of course with the advent of computers, that became key to thinking about how do we innovate, how do we teach. So our role really is guiding the OU in terms of harnessing technology and developing technology. We host a range of groups, one of which is Open Education Research Hub. So that looks at OER and MOOCs and these kind of areas of education that are offered for free or lower cost. I work as part of the Securing Greater Accessibility Initiative, which looks at how we support and improve support for disabled students. And we also have a Learning and Teaching Technologies team, which are actually our development teams. So they actually, we can devise projects and have them work to do software development and maintain tools for us. So all of that kind of means that for me and colleagues, we're quite interested in the idea of designing and innovating specifically for the ideas of inclusion and engagement. So it's about kind of creating innovations in educational technology, but really about how we can engage those kind of diverse audiences, perhaps underserved or audiences that are otherwise not being thought about, being inclusive of everyone who wants to learn, thinking about pathways between informal learning and non-formal learning and formal learning. So not everything we do is about degrees. There's a lot of it about open educational resources and courses that people can take for free. We're very interested in areas around active learning, so getting students to create, to share these kind of things. And there's a big emphasis on encouraging reflection, so getting our students to think about their development, think about what they've learned, look back over what they've done. And that really kind of brought, was brought together for me in looking back on some of the projects we've worked on and looking at some current projects, was trying to think about some principles. So these will kind of be returned to in the talk, but just to kind of introduce here, there's three principles really. So the first one was to start with the audiences that face challenges, so actively looking for people in areas where there are problems, but then actually taking that and using it as an opportunity to innovate more widely, so taking those things that we do for particular groups and then looking beyond them. The second one is to explore simple ways of getting people to be creative, so getting them to do things that are imaginative, creative, but not necessarily difficult. And that's about getting them to think about, to think about participation and new ways of thinking and sharing. And the final one is really to consider accessibility from the beginning of a design process. So rather than building something, very novel and innovative, and then after we've done a lot of work to then go, oh, actually we need to make this accessible, rather than doing that, to actually do it in a way that we think about that from the start. So each of these principles I'll talk about in relation to a particular project that we've done. So the first project I'd like to introduce was called Out There and In Here, and the sort of tagline for that project was social inclusion through distributed theme collaboration. And this was a project that evolved from other work, so we're talking about that first principle here of looking for problems and challenges for particular audiences. And our challenge in this case was fieldwork. And actually, this was an area that we found in our own teaching. We know that fieldwork is important. We know that students really benefit from it and in some subject areas it's really essential that they have some experience of fieldwork. But it's also very challenging for students, particularly say with a mobility impairment so a student who uses a wheelchair or just has difficulty going into a particular environment. So as you see in the photo, fieldwork might occur in environments that involve climbing up hills and rocky faces just to, in this case, really look at the geology of the area. And this, the project out there in here really emerged from previous work that a colleague of mine, Trevor Collins, had led on. And this was actually look at integrating into our teaching where students were expected to take part in fieldwork how an experience could be given to those students from a distance. So Trevor was setting up back in the early 2000s setting up networks in a local area such that a student can communicate with those who can go in and take photos of the rocks in the area and can undertake those activities with that student. And if you can look at the photo on the right that's a kind of a tutor and a student working in a car are a little distance from the field site. And so this project was called Enabling Remote Activity and as I say my colleague Trevor led on that. And then what happened was we kind of took that concept that you would have learners in a field site location and other learners who might not be in that location for whatever reason. And you would look at this distributed collaboration and how that could be designed to be equitable learning act. The important thing here was that we started with this group of students who had mobility impairments but actually when we got to the Act There and In Here project we looked at it more widely and this was a project funded by the Engineering Physical Sciences Research Council in the UK and in collaboration with Microsoft. And what we built in Act There and In Here was really extending that idea that we could have students in a field site and other students who could also get a useful learning experience by collaborating with those students. So in this slide you can see the indoor space that students were given to work in and this was kind of set up like a command centre so they could see images of the field site they could communicate with their fellow students in the field site and what we tended to find was that these indoor students took particular roles and then in contrast we had another group of students with a tutor working at a field site so in this case in this image it's a kind of quarry where you can look at the geology and those students communicating with the indoor group taking photos, sharing observations these kind of things and this was really interesting to us partly as a at the time a complicated technology issue so nowadays mobile networks are pretty good and cover most areas depending on where you live you could hopefully get a network and share these things but back when we did this project that was actually pretty difficult a lot of these field sites are quite rural so there was a technical challenge to enabling this access but what was really interesting actually was the pedagogical designs and activities we could create that the people in the different spaces actually had quite different abilities and opportunities and it was about designing that and thinking about how they can work together so what we included really in a sense was that those out there learners in the field site really benefited from the information they were getting from the people indoors who could search databases who could do identification for them those sorts of things quite easy easy for someone to do in an indoor space with laptops and other technologies less easy for people who are in an outdoor site with a small mobile phone and perhaps for weather and other things like that so they played a very important role that was beneficial to those outdoors the in here learners they got some engagement with this real world experience so they weren't using artificial examples they were through the proxy of the people in the field they were experiencing field work but what we did find is those out there learners really had to help and take responsibility to create a good experience for the people indoors where this sometimes didn't work so well with the people out there sort of started forgetting about those people but where it worked really well was where they took responsibility for that and we continued with this concept and so it wasn't just applied in the kind of geology space we also applied it for historical investigations so this was an example where we had people in a this is actually in Cambridge historical sites in Cambridge particularly a large kind of graveyard lots of historical people buried there and we had a lot of data about that site that people indoors could explore and then instruct and share with the people outdoors walking around so we could apply the same concept to quite a lot of different groups so this was with school children for example rather than university students and we built this this concept of having students indoors and outdoors working together and that was really interesting not just because of the group around mobility impairment who could obviously benefit from it but from this wider group so to say the principle there was really to start with those audiences that faced challenges but then not to say well actually the only thing we're interested in is helping those students with mobility impairments we can actually take those concepts and be inclusive of wider audiences and innovate for everyone by having those starting points I mean so if anybody has any thoughts on that concept and whether it applies to your work you know very interested in any comments you want to make in the chat otherwise I'll carry on and you know be interesting to hear your thoughts as we continue so the second project and principle I'd like to introduce was called Art Maps and this is really where we think about this kind of idea of creative engagement, how we can create something that allows people to get creative in very simple ways so Art Maps was a project which was really about working with galleries and museums to think about what they can do with their data so Art Maps was a collaboration between University of Nottingham Tate which has galleries in London and other areas of the UK and the University of Exeter so it was quite an interdisciplinary project involving arts and humanities and computing and obviously the gallery themselves and their groups around learning and technology and the background really to this what was interesting to us was that the Tate were sharing open data about their museum collection so they collected this data about all the artworks that they had so thousands and thousands of artworks and they were now sharing this under an open license and that's become quite common now to share open data it's a really interesting idea but really where it leads people is well if we share this data what are people able to do with it what's the purpose and so for Tate there was a lot of discussion about how do we produce something that gets the public to engage with that collection data and one idea was that the public could help them improve on this data or augment this data through some sort of crowd sourcing so that was an initial kind of germ of an idea here we're also interested in how that data could be used for learning and particularly to engage people who might not be in the gallery so obviously Tate is geographically situated in certain places and lots of the public are not nearby so how can they engage with Tate and with Tate's collection and this is just some images if you go to github which is a way of sharing data and code you can get that data about the Tate collection and you can also view it through their website so you can see all the artworks that they have and you can engage with it in that way and one thing that really interested us about this was the idea of location so within Tate's taxonomy of data about their collection they actually had a place for places so which places were related to that piece of art and obviously this varies according to the artwork and what we did was start to explore how people thought about place in relation to particular artworks so you see in these images here that we had people walking around London and while they were doing so they were given various artworks that represented the River Thames and talking about doing trails or walks around London thinking about art and place so in this case thinking what perspective was the artist looking at when they painted this or what was their thoughts about what it is they were trying to capture in that location so starting off with a lot of low fidelity type events we hadn't built any technology at this point we were doing things on paper and getting people walking around but that led us to the art maps website which you can go and visit online and see for yourself but I'll explain a little bit about what happened when we put this in front of people and the idea of art maps was really to say that people could link the artworks in the collection to particular locations so they were supported to say where do we think this artwork belongs and some artworks obviously had location data others did not so we started off getting people doing this in various ways so doing it outside doing it in the gallery so there's an installation of art maps where people could do it on the screen whilst being inside other people could use it on a mobile device and walk around thinking about locations and art and the thing is it's quite a simple idea really we're just saying where does that artwork sit tag it to a location but it creates these really big questions about what it means to put an artwork in a location where an artwork really belongs and when we're talking about participation who decides if there's a correct location or what it actually means for there to be a correct location for an artwork in the world on the map and to take a few examples so this is Foner's painting of the Coliseum in Rome this is a reasonably simplistic example and we can see when people used art maps if you can see the image on the right I'll explain it they're basically looking at locations and marking this as having a particular perspective on the Coliseum as a location so they have different ideas about which perspective it might be but they're quite similar and actually what we found when we asked people a lot of them were going on to Google Street View and sort of moving around the area of the Coliseum and thinking well what angle where was he stood and is it a real angle or is it a combination of angles these kind of things as a simple example and people were saying this is fun it's like a treasure hunt I'm going around on Google Street View on the map and learning about new places through thinking about the artworks that were painted there it was having a nice effect of engagement but obviously a lot of artworks are not as simple and pictorial as that one there's another artwork that gives a slightly different example this is an artwork called Allegro Stepatoso by the artist Carol Way and it depicts a kind of fantastical zoo scene and from looking at it you're not entirely sure where this might be and when we started talking to people and looking at their suggestions they said oh well this could be a park zoo in London a particular location and then they started thinking again where exactly would we put this they weren't so sure really with this so somebody said the landscape seems to work but it's hard to know where this actually was it's interesting because what actually happened here is that people were looking at the information on the Tate website about the painting and about the artist and learning that this artist visited Regent's Park Zoo as a child but of course this isn't an accurate picture of the zoo but still people were saying well this is where it belongs but they were also aware that the painter had not painted Regent's Park Zoo so there was another quote here from someone saying that this is a painting of an ideal zoo not necessarily a real one it's a place in your mind it doesn't exist and to take this idea further another artwork we got people to look at was Radio Wind Tires by the artist Julian Opie and this is very much an artwork that plays with the idea of different places so it's depicting a motorway really which could be anywhere exactly what we saw people put this all over the world in different locations where they thought oh yes that's where I think that picture belongs so somebody was saying you can locate this through your own personal connections another person saying you know I can think of a memory of mine that relates to this but I've never put that on the map and that's kind of interesting so as I said this really kind of brings up the idea where is an artwork what does it depict where is it physically where did the artist live what does it remind you of these are all kind of valid answers to where the artwork belongs and this brought us back to various literature about the idea of being open to interpretation and actually allowing people to think rather than giving them simple answers isn't this idea that you know from Bill Gave's work thinking about ambiguity this idea that there's no easy interpretation and it requires people to participate and really make their own meaning so we thought this was really interesting because it's such a simple idea we're not asking anybody to do anything complicated and most of the people we ask could do it but actually it has a complexity to it because we're making them think and it's also relevant to inclusion and participation so Larry Bird Phillips wrote about open authority in the museum so really kind of taking the idea that somewhere like Tate has experts and curators and people who understand painting and have spent their lives thinking about it is their view on where this artwork belongs any more valid than any member of the public view so the idea of open authority is that you can use the web and you can kind of don't forget about that expertise that people have about art but you can allow people to really engage and feel like their view has meaning so you no longer relying on there being a fixed interpretation of what piece of art is and this is going to be really nice for including people in museums and including them in discussions of art so if we think about the question of where is an artwork really any of these places is valid there's not one right answer and on our research this kind of led us to the idea of a spatial footprint of artwork so really artworks can be connected and thought about in terms of multiple relationships with different places and actually we can create technologies now like art maps that think about the relevance of space and place in relation to a museum collection and it can also be very personal so it's not about an answer that's correct for everyone but an answer that matters to you and getting you to think about it so the principle there as I said was to explore these simple and novel ways to get people to be creative it opens up thinking and participation and it can also be really inclusive because you're no longer saying there's a right answer and there's an expert who knows everything you're actually saying well there are many valid answers and you should be thinking about what this means to you and the third project and principle I'd like to talk about is actually a more current project that you're working on developing and I hope it's of interest to you as much as it excites us so this is a project called Our Journey Our Journey is about allowing students to map their study journeys and represent the challenges and achievements that they've had and so the principle here is about thinking about accessibility from the start but equally because this is a new project I think it actually encapsulates the last two principles as well so where did we start with this well we did start with populations that face challenges so we did participatory research with our Disabled Students Group so the Open University as I said has 20,000 Disabled Students registered at any time and the Disabled Students Group is a really great bunch of people that we work with in terms of representing those people and thinking about what we can do to make use of innovation and the exercise we did with them was really to think about priorities so what were the big things they'd like us to do research on and a range of things came out of this there's some really interesting ones around how they found it difficult to get through processes that got them support or to allow them to register and understand what was available to them and the idea that diversity of student experiences wasn't really visible and we kind of took that and thought about how we could create something that helped them to communicate and represent their experiences and you know we really found that people were saying well I want better tools to communicate with the University and give my feedback and for my tutor say to understand me from who I am and so this was our starting point was really to think about understanding those challenges and allowing the University to understand them and the University staff to understand them and this was again a very collaborative project so we worked with our Disabled Students Group as I said we worked with Diverse Tuneability or a great social enterprise around helping train and support disabled students and JISC who are funding us in this work and have a real interest in supporting higher education and areas like learning analytics where we say well this is an alternative way of thinking about how we understand students. So we did a lot of participatory design work here we were thinking about how would a student like to represent their journey where does their journey as a learner begin and how does that integrate the events in their life because things happen in your life that affect study you know you may have a job you may have family issues things that happen to you those all impact on your study so as we talked to people it was very clear that they wanted us to include those kind of life events and the things that were happening to them in the study journey and the picture on the right is Snakes and Ladders Board and we kind of got this from various sources so I thought about being a student a bit like being in Snakes and Ladders so this idea that you know you'd make some progress and sometimes you'd make amazing progress and everything would feel like you know you'd just gone up a ladder and things were great and other times you slip up and you would fall back down again and feel like you've just gone back to the beginning so it was interesting that that came up a few times and this idea of sort of board games and things like that representing like being a student and so as I said we did a lot of workshops and we developed various tools and paper based tools again to think about what what it meant to represent a student journey and how we create a tool that helped and some other things that came out when we started this we were really interested in the idea of collecting and understanding the challenges students faced because we thought well that's where we can help you know with the university better understand the problems students have then we can help them but actually in terms of working with the students they wanted to represent their achievements you know they really wanted us to allow them to have a more balanced view and say well actually what my goals what am I trying to achieve here the other thing they wanted was to not make it feel like another essay or assignment that you know another piece of work that we're making them do so they wanted it to be fun and different and something that took them outside of study and what it actually meant you know to be completing their courses and another really interesting thing was around sharing the journey and this idea that we wanted people to be honest about what it was like to be a student but if we wanted that they had to have some control over what they were sharing and this has all led us to various iterations now and as I say this is ongoing work but we had this idea of students creating these cards which describe a particular event that happened to them so that could be anything like an assessment or getting a job or struggling with something and they create these simple cards which describe each of these events over the course of time that becomes their journey and in this slide you can kind of see the design of that so that they talk about what happened they talk about how they felt and they can add little descriptions to it and this was our original design I hope you can kind of see that okay where you have lots of these cards coming together to present the students journey and again you know this is this kind of principle it's simple, creative it's accessible it started off as something where we were really thinking about disabled students but actually we're now any student can do this and any student can benefit from it and enjoy it so it's got that principle in it as well and there's a website there which is kind of the old version one now but that's freely available to play with in this and resources there as well the actual images and cards that we use to do this on paper are also there and openly licensed so you can download those and use it in a kind of workshop situation to think about student journeys and this is what we're now working on there's a new version of this you know much better design we've had a lot of feedback about what the tool should do, how it should be presented so it's the same idea of creating a card but it's a bit more informative a bit more user friendly and again there's the new website there the address is on the screen I'll put it up again at the end and you know if you look at that you can have a play with it you can register and have a look at this tool that we're creating and yeah there again it's the layout of cards so that people can create their journey over time and we can look at that and see what's happened to them what is our journey for this is one of the interesting things is doing this in a participatory way we knew that this was something students like the idea of but we were still kind of thinking what is the purpose of our journey for us and why are we pursuing it and actually there's a few different reasons why this is interesting it's a reflective learning activity for students so when students create their journeys they're thinking about the challenges but also the achievements how they've overcome challenges how they might behave in the future differently it does have the potential to give feedback to the institution so we can collect journeys at scale now and we're really only just starting to do this we've done a trial with about 50 students and we have students in a few of our courses using it so we're building up to it but it can give us a lot of feedback it could also enable this kind of dialogue and personal support so we think about well if the tutor can see the student's journey or if support staff can see the student's journey then they can help them and we're also interested in taking this out informally if you've got students who are doing open education and things like that okay so there's a nice question there from Rita yeah mentoring based on the journeys so what we've done so far is to embed this in a course so it's like foundation students very early in their studies and at a level where we're trying to prepare them to get on with the degree and in the first instance it's an optional activity in a forum and they can share their journey in the forum and get some feedback on it either from tutors or other students but we're now moving towards testing a model where the tutor is being trained so each student has a tutor and their tutor is being trained to use our journey and then they will use that with their group of students we haven't done it yet but we're very excited about the idea there so yeah it is the idea that can be mentoring and that might take different forms it might be you have a large group of students and an academic can see all the students journeys or it might be it's more of a one-to-one thing so yeah as I said there's lots of potential of what our journey can do and we're really exploring all of this and very welcome to talk just about it if you're interested in using it we're getting it to the point where it's able to be used at scale by different groups and this all came out of starting by sitting down and working with a disabled students group and saying well what are the sort of things you'd like us to do and the other key thing that I'd like to introduce with our journey is we've always thought about accessibility technical accessibility of this from the beginning so whilst it for us it is exciting and innovative underneath it all it's fairly standard building blocks of web technology it's forms it's structured information and as we work through the project and we keep developing it you know we can keep testing it we can ensure that it's open to everyone to use we think about things like keyboard navigation through the tool, how screen readers do it and we run testing on it and that continues throughout the project and the key thing there is you know we're not thinking about this two years down the line and then having to figure out how to make it accessible we're just doing that from the beginning again that partly because of the audience we started with it was always going to have to be accessible otherwise we wouldn't be being responsible to that audience but really all projects should think about this stuff from an early stage so that's really I think our journey project is kind of embodying all three of those principles I started with so kind of saying well we should start with audiences who face challenges and try and find those people who have problems that we want to work on but then actually we don't limit ourselves to those audiences you know we really kind of say well this might be a good thing for everyone it might be you know just a limited audience but a really wide one think about creativity but simple ways of encouraging people to contribute and share and think about accessibility from the beginning of the process so don't leave that to several years down the line and really at this point you know I wonder whether people think these are the sorts of ideas that resonate with what they do I wonder if anybody has any thoughts that these are quite difficult things oh okay Antonia the evaluation of all the initiatives okay so they've always had what I suppose we'd call in the wild evaluation so we've always tried to get them out in front of people and make them publicly available and that's meant in some cases that's quite difficult so when we started without there and in here as I said technically it was hard so we ran quite a few trials where we got groups of students and school children and all these other things and we had to put in a lot of effort setting that up whereas nowadays it wouldn't be so hard because mobile network technology is just much better but we had you know several groups and we could analyse how they interacted with it and the different learning that happened outdoors and indoors with art maps again we did it publicly so the website was there and we collected a lot of data by having kind of challenges that we prompted people to to do certain things and with our journey it's really again trying to get students using it so we are doing trials where it's kind of controlled and we have students doing surveys for us and things like that to make sure it's getting better but yeah I think our evaluation is always kind of about making it naturalistic and getting people involved yeah absolutely and it was really engaging and interesting there are so many things that we could discuss starting from your presentation today I really hope that we can keep on reflecting on your input and I see there are people typing and encouraging you know to go on with this work as you said we met on a conference that was devoted to inclusion and accessibility and the use of technology in a critical way to facilitate inclusion within heritage and within cultural heritage so this is the area where I think we should do more and more focus to you know to develop certain citizenship skills that we really need in the contemporary work unfortunately and so I really thank you for being with us today unfortunately we're running out of time but as I said the recording will be stored on our website and I hope other people other participants can access this recording and maybe contact you I will contact you for sure because I really hope there would be the opportunity to start a new cooperation together so thank you yeah, thank you absolutely I have one, this slide has some contact details on there as well and yeah, very happy if people want to email and talk about the project if you are available tonight in a while actually in two hours, in a couple of hours less than two hours we will have an chat on a project that is devoted to very close topics and context, the digital culture project which is a European project on the development of digital skills the facilitation of the development of digital skills in the creative industries sector different partners are involved and so you know the topic is very much close to this one and different environments from different countries in Europe will be there and we will talk more about that. Thank you again Tim, have a nice winter break and let's be in touch thank you, thank you thanks to all the people that participated today thank you