 Hey Ashley, guess what? What? I closed the deal today. Yeah. Yeah, I closed the deal Yeah, awesome deal big hurry though. They're in a big hurry Really great company Yeah, that's great. Could you tell me a little bit more about this company? Well Well, I did get on their side a little bit and they I think they sell like sport shoes or something it seems like a pretty big company and Yeah, they're e-commerce, but but they're in a big hurry, so yep All right Could you get me some information about this company? Is there like any summary like you're yeah, I'm either in a hurry Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean it's it's it's the normal right like you look on Dropbox Just do a search in your computer Dropbox and then we got them on Google Drive So I've got a few documents spread out there, and let me see I Think a couple emails I'll forward to you so you can read through those to you, okay? Oh But but listen actually You do need to read those in the next couple of hours Because I told them that we'd be kicking off like later today because it like they're in a big hurry, and I don't want them to I don't I don't want them to drop like drop out Kyle Why would you do that? Why would you tell this client that I'm gonna talk to them today for a kickoff? You know that I schedule my time and the team's time like weeks in advance Of course, I can't just pull everybody together read some documentation and be at a client call in a couple hours Yeah, well actually I know we have this conversation pretty often and Like the truth of the matter is that I've got to sell like we have to eat as a company So I got to sell right so sometimes that means we move a little faster Sometimes it means we have a little more time and you guys just need to roll with it. Oh We have to roll with it. I see So Where did you say this documentation was? Yeah, so just the normal spots, you know search it out and Listen, I got a go. I got another call. I'm really hot client really looking forward to this I think I'll close another deal here in the next week and Just make sure you send me the stuff for the invite the kickoff call tonight Great Awesome does Does that type of interaction sound familiar to any of you? So Hopefully not quite to that extent. Maybe not as dramatic But then again, you did choose to come to this to this session So presumably you want to hear how you might improve the transition from your sales To your project team. So that's great That means that you're in the right place because that's what we're going to talk to you about But first a little bit about ourselves Yeah, so I'm coffeeable I've been in sales for about well web sales for about five years now maybe six I started the Magento space working e-commerce and then moved on to Drupal through Commerce guys to blue spark So I've had a bit of experience working with project managers over the years I'm Ashley Tavenet. I'm director of operations at blue spark I started as project manager and still manage some projects kind of Changed my responsibility a bit over the years, but I've been with blue spark for about five years now And before that I actually worked on the client side I was e-commerce manager for a jewelry brand So I do kind of have the experience from the other side as well not just you know in an agency Yeah, awesome. So quick poll. How many project managers are there in this room? Okay, good and any sales people are brave enough to show up You awesome. You guys unfortunately are the brunt of the joke today. So How about any like non-agency folks Awesome. Yep. Okay. Thanks for coming. All right. Let's continue with our little poll Has anybody here ever experienced a difficult transition from their sales to project team? All right, lots of hands. Have you already ever had a project go awry because of a difficult transition? Still some hands definitely All right, and have you ever had a frustrated client or a frustrated team members because of something that went wrong in a transition All right, so by the miracles of modern technology, we have just graphed the results of that informal poll instantaneously and you will see that everybody has experienced this type of difficult transition at least at one point in their careers So, you know, that's great. That means you're not alone. We've all had these type of issues before and Even so you may be asking yourselves, you know, why should we care? Yeah, so why should we care? Is it really important that sales and and the project management office work together? Is it okay for sales to just do their thing and then turn over the projects and get things started? So a quick little story of my own that happened a couple years ago I just started with a new company in the Magento space and sold a project to a company called Pickett's Pickett's Press they were bespoke like card creation company and And so about 60% into the project after I'd closed and everything Why it actually got to 60% before they realized the problem is another story altogether But anyway 60% into it they found out that the project was a dead stop the solution I had sold was not even possible to like implement So the company I was with really didn't have the right technical oversight and whatever But the impact of that is really what I want to focus on here because we think about impact in terms of lost Client lost money, but there's a lot of other impacts that actually hit our agency So Yeah, we do lose clients. So in this case Pickett's Press did finish out the project with someone else They were both out of budget and you know out of time with us out of faith with us or whatever So they went a different direction. So we lost that money. I lost the sales commission personally for for what was left in that project The project was overall even a loss of money for the company and as a whole But the other side of it was that the project manager who was on it who is the second best project manager that our company had Left the company out of frustration. So we lost internally We lost, you know anybody who's lost a very good player in there and their company like agencies are our people I'm built out of people. So when you lose somebody like that, it's a big deal So the other thing that we lost was self-respect, right? So every project that's a failed project the team has has a question about like are we really doing good work? Are we really serving serving the clients well because you know, obviously, that's the heart of of us in here. So, um, yeah so this This sort of dynamic has made me realize that This is the number one reason why good agencies succeed to fail succeed succeed or fail to thrive because like a good and genuine agency Can really have a good heart about what they're doing But still fail to thrive and make good margins and really have good client success and loyalty If they fail at this particular dynamic, so So let's take it back for a moment. I'm not going to spend time really talking everybody through the PM triangle We all know the tight-knit relationship between scope timeline and budget on projects We know how critical it is that these three interdependent aspects of a project align But what's also important to realize is that you know, no matter how well project managers or the sales team Do their jobs? There's always going to be a gap between your clients expectations of you know What they can actually get for their money and in what timeline you can deliver it The reality of the project delivery Even if you're very good at managing this triangle, there's going to be a gap So it's just kind of like a fundamental truth that you know, no matter how happy your client may be with the end result And with the project They'll always want more. It's kind of human nature So, you know, it's just important to recognize that there is this gap It will always be there and what we need to do is to continually strive to reduce it. We need to bridge the gap So mind you the gap I think the first thing you start with is there is always going to be a gap like in sales You have I don't know maybe in in our world Ten hours to figure out a scope for a client and go through that whole process Maybe a little bit more maybe maybe a little bit less for depending on the situation But then you think about when you go through like a discovery of full-on discovery the design process UX process how much how many hours are actually spent and scoped out for those That's really when the projects kind of comes to its it's like final solution. And so there is a big gap There's always a gap there and we want to minimize that we want to like as on the sales side We want to actually be pointing out to the client right from the front It's not fair really to the client to not point out that there is a gap. There's risks there There's and point out where there is risk Maybe there's some areas where we've done a lot of work before we know that that that gap is pretty narrow But in other areas, there's sort of a black hole. We don't know like a data migration or something like that We really don't know how long it's going to take so so we have to like and in the sales process start prepping the client for that so in our In our talk what I think will be useful is if we talk through sort of what are the priorities of each of the parties involved In this process because I think that or what I found in my experience anyway Is that a lot of times we don't understand what each other's priorities are and we just kind of assume that our priorities are Everybody's priorities, so just kind of go through and talk about what are the sales priorities so that you project managers in here Can start to think about us sales guys in a different light and then the opposite side that That we start to understand what's important for a project manager and the client is also included in here and then finally Just going to walk through that like what does our handoff process look like because that's kind of a key point of Communication with the client where a lot of stuff can be lost so so What does the sales guy need? There's a lot of stereotypes about sales guys right and a lot of them aren't super positive, so Maybe greedy comes to mind or dishonest or whatever, but I actually believe that sales can be a very honorable profession and and I think that What's important To kind of get there is that first of all we decide that we're going to be honest and transparent in the sales process Like prioritized not just closing the client, but also bringing other you know the other aspects into it and then And then the other thing is really understanding our industries understanding our clients on the sales side Not just going for the quick and easy close, but actually understanding what are their needs and listening to them during the sales process More of a consultative approach So what do sales guys need? sales people need First of all to sell and to win So like our bottom line is that we have to sell so it's very important that we're closing business Because that's our job right and the momentum of a sales department is based a little bit on momentum as well So winning is really important So the other thing that's helpful for us because we're so motivated to to win and to sell We need technical oversight. It's not fair to a sales person to not have that checkpoint in there Where somebody who really knows what they're doing is going to walk through this because most sales people are not actually technical folks They're usually not developers Maybe a little bit more in the Drupal Drupal world that a developer actually ends up being sales person But but still it doesn't tend to be that way and then finally feedback So what's really really awesome is if you're able to track So we sell, you know certain number of hours. We're scoping things out We expect that things are going to turn out a certain way in the sales side And then there's the gap goes to the project management office goes through the whole project process And then there's there's feedback that can come through and say well this project that you sold This you got right this you didn't get right It was way off and here's why we think we have a discussion around that so that next time when a client saying something to me It may mean something different than it did before because I understand Oh, that's actually gonna be there's some risk there that I didn't even understand before so I get a better understanding So what about the p.m. You know a lot of pms are experts at juggling lots of different things and Kind of working to ensure that projects don't blow up in your face And those are really important skills to have But that doesn't really tell us what we need So the number one thing that pms need are projects, right? If we don't have any projects to manage then we kind of don't have anything to do So that is definitely where we have an interdependent relationship The sales team has to be selling these projects so that I can then deliver on them Otherwise, you know, I'm pretty much out of a job so that part aside You know on these projects that we're delivering on there is definitely an ideal right we would all love to have projects that have an ample budget and a realistic timeline and You know you can deliver everything that your client needs and the people are really pleasant to work with the client is great Your team is happy, you know, and everything just goes according to plan, right? That would be wonderful, but unfortunately that's not really what happens in in real life so, you know Getting out of that ideal because that's not what happens that the things that project managers need in order to be able To succeed on a project are realistic client expectations It's so so so very important that these are set early on so you can deliver on them It's not fun to be the cold shower for a new client as you're building a relationship with you know this new client It's really not fun to be the person who has to tell them No, actually, we can't do all of this within your budget After they've been sold that exact same thing by other people on your team So the real estate realistic expectations are extremely important Really, it's something that sets the project up for success from the very beginning The other thing that project managers need is a full debrief You know generally we're coming on the project after it has been sold It is the beginning of our relationship with the client But it's not the beginning of your agency's relationship with the client And so you need to know what information has previously been exchanged between the sales team and this client You know, what are the needs that the sales team is aware of are there any? Personality your stakeholder issues on the client side that you should be made aware of Basically you need you know a summary of as much information as has been gleaned during the the sales process And then the last thing that PM's need is resource availability in order to meet the expectations So that goes for both your team. You need to have the resources to be able to You know put on this project and actually build it design it whatever it's needed for the project at hand But it also goes for the client your client needs to be available and Hopefully the sales team has already kind of hinted at that with the client and let them know that you know There's going to be meetings and they're going to have to give timely feedback and things like that So moving on from the PM, you know, we've heard from PM. We've heard from the sales guy What about the client? All right, they're kind of the third part in this relationship So having been in the client position in the past I'm going to put that hat on and tell you a little bit about what clients need Really it boils down to wanting to feel that they are in good hands It's generally quite a long process for a client To get to a point where they are working with you on a project It starts off, you know as an idea that somebody in their organization has and you know They probably have to write it up in various forms and Follow, you know internal processes to get to this idea Approved and for you know to the point where they have a budget and you know It's actually a project that is going to happen And then they're writing up an RFP and they're shopping it out to potential vendors and getting Proposals and meeting with them. It's it's been a long process for them before they actually get to you So, you know this project it's really it's their baby and they want it to be well taken care of It's really important that they feel they're you know in good hands so From their perspective, you know, they You know, it was just saying about the the length of that whole process of them getting to you You know, it's difficult to select a vendor They've probably talked to a lot of really great Really great agencies. They've read through a bunch of different proposals heard great ideas but now they've committed to you and They want to feel that that wasn't a mistake That they hired the right people so You know, they want to know that they made the right decision They've chosen an expert vendor and you know, it's somebody who's going to be able to help them lead their project to success They want to feel heard and understood They want clear communication From, you know, the sales team and the project delivery team and then they also need to be able to plan for their business so That means, you know, there could be Perhaps this project means that there go there's a new role that's going to be created They're going to have to hire somebody new well They're going to have to time that with your project and make sure that maybe it's a content creator I think that this person has to be hired trained and ready to go by the time the site goes live or You know, maybe there's other internal processes that need to be chained Maybe there's a marketing plan that needs to be enacted PR that's going around around the site in any case They have, you know, very real business needs that are you need to be planned in conjunction with this project So they need to Be able to do those together And then they want continuity in the handoff. They want to feel like they have Like they are in this, you know, the same good hands with the sales team and with the project team They don't want to feel like they have to repeat themselves start over. It's the same relationship for them and it should be There should be real continuity there Yeah, so how do we create continuity for for the handoff so we don't drop the baton in the handoff So I think it's really important first of all that there's a process in place and that it's sort of we're a bit pedantic about the process So we're using the same documents. We store them in the same places They have the same sort of format that they go with Meetings that we're having we're having the same meetings with clients in most places similar meetings with similar agendas and And Also, like the same conference little things like the same conference Software service that you're using if I'm using Google Hangouts then project management shouldn't shouldn't use go to meeting because the clients having to You know learn a different process. It's kind of like an omnichannel online. You're trying to think about The client as a user and treat them well at every touch point with the with the process so Yeah, so Now there's two really critical transition tools. There's the communication and the process We're gonna go into the process a little bit more in the following minutes The process really is about having formal internal communication What I want to talk about right now with the communication side of this little equation is kind of your communication with the client So we already talked about the fact that transparency is very important from the beginning with your clients And that's it is really one of our founding beliefs as an agency that we need to be transparent You know within our team with our clients. It's just something that we really value But it's true that it's not the easiest way to communicate It means that sometimes you have to have really hard discussions And you may not want to have them, but you still have to It also can seem a little counter-intuitive Because you're working hard to sell this this project to a potential client It would seem that you should just tell them what they want to hear so that you can make the sale But that doesn't really set things up for long-term success You know making the sale doesn't mean having a successful Project or a successful building a successful client relationship and one that will endure right you want to build a long relationship That's what's going to really set your project up for success Yeah, and on that note of communication and I I've noticed obviously there's there's a weakness on the sales side to kind of say what the client wants But I've also noticed in the project management side that a lot of times really hard decision or hard hard conversations We'll kind of be put off because it's uncomfortable to talk to the client about it And so this this moment when you realize oh this thing was sold and the expectations are wrong here Like even maybe way off the budget's wrong We've come to this point where we realize there's an issue and and that's in the project management office that Conversation actually the sooner you have it the better and it is what it is You have to emotionally go through the process of just deciding to be a good project manager You have to emotionally decide that hard decisions Okay, maybe you have a conversation internally on how to frame and approach that the Conversation with the client before you do that but as soon as possible you're communicating to the client so that they they have a Trusting relationship with you because they're used to this clients are used to this Projects going wrong things coming up. They know that things come up if they've been around for any time at all So so the process overview. I'm just going to kind of what we're going to do is just jump through the process And then we're going to talk a little bit more about like who does what and then go into a little bit more detail about each step of the process and Hopefully that's very helpful Okay, so the process So the first thing is was whenever I get a verbal yes or I start to understand that I'm at 90 95% 99% sure that this client's going to close with us I'm immediately alerting the team to the fact that this like getting their minds ready. They're them ready to receive a new client So the next thing is hand-off email project one sheet will go in more detail So I'll just go through this fast and then part of the process is reading the documentation that I send Plan the resources for the project internal kickoff and external kickoff So Who does what in this process? Let's go over the responsibility breakdown So yeah, so I start with the alerting alerting the team as soon as I Know that I'm pretty close to closing the idea with alerting is to get The the project delivery team ramped up and ready Almost emotionally ready to receive the client so that their energy is high when I actually send the hand-off email And then as soon as they close I'm going to prepare the hand-off documentation and send that I send that over to the delivery team So as soon as I receive the hand-off documentation I need to be making sure that I'm requesting the resources needed for this project or if I Can just directly plan resources planning them You know that ensures that the project is able to start quickly as soon as you know You've had your kickoff calls in that you can get going And then I need to be reading this documentation that Kyle has shared with me going through everything you know writing up any questions that I may have and Ensuring that the team has also read the documentation So anybody who is going to be active on this project should also be reading through that documentation Yeah, that's good as soon as she's sort of prepped me on what timelines look like Then I can reach back out to the client let them know what to expect Again, that's about letting the client kind of stay engaged in the process and have a sense of where we're at internally in this sort of quiet period And then after that I would be working to set up first an internal and also a client kickoff call There may also be an onsite that's needed some of you were a distributed company So generally our kickoffs are just via hangouts But some of you may not be distributed and maybe all of your kickoffs are onsite But so if there is an onsite you need to coordinate that of course and if there's travel needed make sure that that's Coordinated and scheduled as well Then I would need to prepare and share the meeting agendas for both, you know the internal and the client kickoffs and then Like as a salesperson, it's very easy to disengage at the moment where sort of I've clicked the send button on the handoff email The project one sheets over there Maybe I've even made an introduction from the client to the project manager So I know that she's going to be sending the agenda out and Making the calendar invites and stuff. So so my mind of the sales guy tends to say check I'm done like I can walk away from that But I kind of encourage that that's not what we do we actually stay engaged at that point because We come into the the closing and the handoff in a really high energy because the client has finally made a decision It's they're exhausted like gone through the process They're really relieved to have found their agency high energy high hopes and the sales guys just made his clothes Right, so he's really happy as well Well, the project manager is on the other side Juggling all the balls right about to receive a new ball to try to juggle and so the energy Difference there is a big deal actually for between the the sales side and the project manager And it's it's important that I'm Making sure that the project manager and that the delivery team is actually caught on to the fact that this client's coming in And that they're getting their energy to the right level that it needs to be to receive that client in the right way, so And then we both need to attend the kickoff meetings So I'm gonna talk to you the handoff email and Honestly, like this may be slightly different for your agency I hope hopefully it's helpful to just go through this detail and then also the project one sheet and these other tools So one thing I'll say about the email is that I actually keep and a template in Google Docs With little subtitles for exactly where to put like each one of these things So first of all remember everything but second of all that it's always in the same spot So the project management and delivery team can sort of count on where they're looking for different information They get used to it So it's not an exhaust like it's a wall of text right when they receive this email or the project one sheet So I want to make it easy for them to find what what information they have So maybe I'll have like the client contact information the role in the company at the top And and titled there so it's easy for them to find client DNA sort of how the client is What they should say or shouldn't say what the client? Yeah Risks there to relationship is it gonna be an easy client a hard client in my expectation that type of thing So and then I'm gonna clearly reference in bullet points every document that they need So we use Google Docs a lot So it's easy to link the document, but maybe you're even attaching some documents, but you're still referencing You're not just attaching them at the bottom of the email you reference each document So they have a list and a complete list of what they need to look at quick summary of the project known risk factors Anything that it's kind of caught my attention that this needs to be sort of managed carefully or there's gonna be issues There and then actions and responsibilities put this in bold at the bottom of the email and it includes the name of the person Who needs to do it it includes the timeline that they need to do it in because a lot of times I'm assuming that they're just gonna catch on to this is a fast deal. I need this kickoff You know this documentation read I need some kind of activity in the next couple of days and they're thinking well You know usually we have five days or two weeks or whatever to kind of get this process going So it's important to put that to time of course and then the project one sheet has a lot of the same document You can go one more Angie Ashley So it's gonna have a lot of the same information now we we use JIRA So this is actually lives in JIRA So the project team who's constantly using JIRA is Accessing this here instead of having to go through a bunch of email to try to find you know initial information I'm not gonna go through all of this if you guys do want like examples of this type of stuff You can give me your email after this and we'll make sure that you guys get some examples of of template documents So the big thing about the one sheet is we use it more It's like a reference document that you would refer back to later on in the project when you're trying to remember Oh, you know What was the exact budget that came out of the sales process again because we're not there anymore? There's been different Yeah, there's been additional funds or whatever. What was the initial budget? This is where you could find that really easily in one place in our one sheet So moving on to the internal kickoff then So when we do internal kickoffs, we Tend to use the same agenda. That's what we're sharing here We want to make sure that we've gathered, you know, everybody on the team who is going to have an active role on the project Sales PM any developers, you know, UX design anybody who's gonna be working on this project The first thing that we want to do is go through a sales overview So that's where Kyle would just kind of give us, you know, the quick overview the summary of this project that he's signed You know going over some of the information probably going over a lot of the information that was already shared in the email But it's always good to just be reminded of those things So then after that overview We would walk through the project one sheet Just making sure that we're touching again on all of those important things that are in there with budget timeline the you know client stakeholders any risks that are in the one sheet kind of main Features that are, you know expected in this project, etc Then We would have some time for questions and answers around the documentation Because of course everybody on the team has read the documentation when they attend the kickoff So they all have tons of questions that they've prepared for this meeting because we all attend our meetings being well prepared so We would go through those questions and you know Maybe we're thinking that for this particular problem that the client has we should use this module But you know it's not ready yet in d8 and this is a d8 build This would be the time to talk through those type of things internally get on the same page before you meet with your client And you may find that when you're going through those questions and answers that you don't actually have the answer And that's okay That means that that's something that you need to be noting for your client kickoff call So you're kind of also through this question and answer preparing some of that agenda as well Then we would discuss any risks associated with the project so that module that's not yet ported into d8 That's kind of a risk if we have to use that module You know, maybe there's risks associated with the timeline Maybe this is a commerce project and my best commerce developer is you know going to be on paternity leave for two weeks You know right at launch two weeks. That's a short leave anyway So So in any case it's important to discuss those risks You know in this internal kickoff call make sure everybody's aware of them We all are you know what the issues are maybe you're coming up with a plan to solve them already Maybe not maybe it's a big risk and there's gonna need to be you know Some formal mitigation happening that you're maybe not gonna have all the answers in this meeting But at least everybody knows that it's there that it's a problem and that you're gonna have to deal with it later Then you want to prep for the client kickoff So just reviewing really quickly any questions that have come out of this that are you know That you need to make sure that you're asking in that client kickoff Reminding everybody of what that agenda will be one. It's going to be Who's probably attending on the client side and then any action items? Maybe in the Q&A you determine that somebody needs to follow up on or research a particular Solution that you talked about well then that would be an action item that you know you sign off on You'd sign off your meeting with so After then the internal kickoff we would do a client kickoff And the agenda for this one is a little bit different We like to keep these a little bit more informal. I suppose with our clients. These aren't like full-on discovery sessions It's more getting to know you you know so the first thing that we start with is Introductions so we're gonna go around the room or you know the hangout thumbnails and everybody's going to introduce themselves What do they do? What's their name and both you know both sides of the table the client and and your team Then we go through a process overview So just quickly explaining what our process looks like what are going to be the different steps on this project You know more or less we know what's going to happen when So that the client knows what's coming next so we don't generally go into tons of detail about the process There are a lot of p.m. In the room. I'm sure you all like to talk about process as much as I do I Don't do that in this meeting It's more of just an overview because not everybody in the meeting needs that level of detail I generally then will follow up and do just a specific like a p.m. Process one-hour call with whoever is Kind of managing the project on the client side But maybe the president of their company doesn't need to know that level of detail about the process of the project So it's just an overview here then Then we do you know quick project overview So that's again kind of just touching on the main points that are in that are in our one sheet or that were in the initial Email from from Kyle so you know just this is the budget. This is the timeline Who are the key stakeholders? Making sure that you're asking your client as well You know are there any important deadlines or any times where you're going to be unavailable that we're not yet aware of It's a good time to bring that up and get that information out there so Yeah, just going over the general overview of this project then we At the end well towards the end of of these kickoff meetings We do then kind of turn it into more of a discovery session where we like to start with the question of You know please define wild success for us What is wild success for this project and just get that feedback from the different? From the different stakeholders that are in attendance on the client side Some really interesting answers can come out of that Sometimes you may have somebody who hasn't really been involved in the whole sales process But you know there's somebody's boss and so they're in this meeting just you know as Bit of a courtesy and you know to show them. Hey look we're kicking off this project So it can be interesting to get that person's point of view and maybe you didn't already have it In any case Asking that asking these questions around you know what a success and kind of turning the end of the call into your first Discovery session also allows then your UX Your UX designer who's on the call to To start preparing sketches for the next call that you're going to have with the client That's going to give them some of that initial feedback that they're going to pull into their very first sketches So then after you've done kind of the discovery questions a little bit of you know defining success Then the last thing would be what are our next steps? So you'd explain you know when the next meeting is going to be who's going to be needed on it What's happening before that meeting so for us that would be that? The UX strategist is going to go and work on some sketches based on what we've heard here today We're going to share those with you will be you know iterating on them After that, but we'll share them with you in a meeting in about a week Get some initial feedback, etc So that is kind of everything that we'd go through in our meeting In our meeting agenda for our client kickoff so well, I Was going to summarize a little bit here. Oh, sorry. It is actually We really do believe that this is a number one reason why Agencies good agencies Succeed or fail to thrive. It's a big deal. We feel like transparency is super important process is really important quick Communication with the client trusting relationships for loyal like we're just humans working together ultimately and so it's important That we work with respect for each other. So um, so hey Ashley I I got a verbal yes on an upcoming project today really news. Yeah, that is great news Kyle, can you tell me some more about it? Yeah, sure I mean, I don't really want to worry you too much about it right now I just wanted to alert you to to the fact that the clients come in your way It'll maybe be another week before we sign or so and then I'll prepare the handoff documentation just like like you'll be expecting it So great so I can receive that email with all the documentation in like a week or so once it's Yeah, you know, you know don't worry about it too much because I'll send it over in the time I just wanted to get you starting to think about the project and then you know You'll know exactly when to get things going and you know what the process is from there So great. I'm excited about the new project Awesome. Thanks guys So we're gonna open it up for questions, but first we're supposed to plug the sprints tomorrow So or not tomorrow. It's only Wednesday on Friday So if you want to sprint, please come and do that and then also if you'd like to provide us some feedback That would be great. That's on the on the Conference website. So yeah with that any questions Thank you all for coming though Yeah, we'll put the slides up on the the link to the the session Yeah, yeah, so is your is your question more like how to sell that kind of project or is it more how to handle it when you find out Yeah Yes Yeah, right. Yeah, so I'll just say a few words from the sales side The question was at least repeat it for the microphone here is that you know, what what happens when you have larger projects where? Where well first of all how to sell into a large project where you know that the scope is unknown and the second part of the Question is what what do you do once you actually have sold the product project? Then you realize that it's not a thousand thousand hours or whatever. It's actually 1500 hours How do you go back to the client? Especially if they're not, you know a wide open well who who runs into clients with just wide open bank accounts? That's very very unusual So on the sales side I'm gonna say that like it's a smaller projects that I feel are the more difficult and the more risky because And this varies honestly this varies from country to country. So Like a Frenchman, I know that they'll they'll tend to sell their projects They want a fixed bid and they're pretty stuck on that Whereas in America if you're talking to somebody and you have a thousand or two thousand hour project your You're more likely to run into people who realize that that's a huge range and nobody knows exactly what the project's gonna be And they're gonna be more willing to deal with that through like well Let's let's have a discovery process and then we'll discuss what the actual scope is So so what to do in France or in countries where they want to fix bid? I don't know what Yeah, what to do in France good luck good luck No, I really don't know from from my side Because I just I like the transparency side if the fact of the matter is that we don't know what the scope is I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna let the client stay or go But if your your sole income is in France and you're like like I don't know what to do with that I think you have to worry worry about mitigating that a little bit differently I don't know if I have a good answer for that and this is once the project has begun Then you run into a crisis. Yeah, so the question is if you have a crisis on your project Who's dealing with that crisis? Is it the CEO of your company? Is it the sales team that coming back in? Is it your project delivery team? So hopefully if a crisis happens hopefully it doesn't but if it does Hopefully you've built up enough trust and enough client rapport and a relationship between the project team and the client that it can mostly be handled With the project team, of course, sometimes you're going to have clients who are going to want to see you know the CEO Step in That's that's okay. If that makes them feel better if it's gonna bring the crisis to resolution fine You know the end goal there is for you to find some sort of resolution where everybody's happy so And you know if perhaps the sales team has maintained a relationship with this client once it was sold You know they've been in contact a couple of times. Yeah, there's no reason why the salesperson can't come back in and help Help come to a resolution I mean I think definitely the more people you have working on the problem and trying to resolve it together The better your chances are of a successful resolution no matter where you are in the process Whether you're in sales or in the project management side of things The more you sweep stuff that should be talked about under the rug the more it's gonna come up later Right, so if you have developed a relationship with the client where you're honestly dealing with them and Something happens That's where you can point back to points where you said listen. I did warn you about this risk I'm sorry You know it's so there is some something there to not sweeping things under the rug because it does come back to bite more often than not right and Ultimately sometimes in telling the truth and having this kind of relationship with your clients you lose your clients But you don't lose your self-respect, right? And that's what's most important because in the end you can keep your head high, right? And you know that you're not internally battling with your own lies and your own sort of cowardice or whatever it is Well, well, I actually do But I understand that some agencies run a little bit differently So that some agencies actually have an account management office And so there isn't a like a clear answer just depends on how your agency works But I always want I actually want to continue the relationship and if there's a problem I kind of want to get pulled back in so I can keep the rapport and I Don't keep my dignity or something. I don't know Yeah Hi, I really appreciate your comment about trying to equalize out the energies between an incoming client He's super excited super jazz and the PM who's juggling a lot of things Yeah, so I'm actually a fellow misunderstood and awful salesperson But I'd like to I'm curious how you when when handing off and just speaking to the sensitivity of a project manager When handing off a project What kind of tools do you use to make sure that someone who is already juggling a lot of projects already isn't overloaded You have a forecasting type of tool for the opportunities coming up And you know, do you have meetings to get on the same page about resources potential resources being allocated? Not just for how many balls can the PM juggle but just the actual developers who might be on the task. Good question. Yeah so Yeah, I think we do a weekly tactical meeting and in that we report one of the One of the checklist items or is it a metric? One of the items that we report on in our weekly tactical meeting is Number of incoming leads number of proposals that have been sent out any important clients that are close to closing So we would already be aware of anything that's coming in You know, hopefully at least a couple of weeks out. Sometimes we've been hearing about it You know for a month or two when they're like, oh, we got this new lead and then a month later Oh, we sent a proposal and then oh, it's really starting to sound good. We have another meeting So the PM hopefully has is aware of it because of the tactical meetings that we have and Then as far as kind of the projections and the resource availability we once a project is very close to signing and We define close by like, you know, 75 percent Pretty sure they're gonna sign like we've had no proposal has been sent. We've had a couple of meetings. It's looking really good We include it in our projections. So we have this. It's a crazy detailed Spreadsheet that I love everybody else is afraid of But it's we call it the mega sheet. I came up with that awesome name It has all the projects and we use that for projections. So it's basically like Calculates your velocity that you need for UX for UI for your developers How many people you're gonna need and we then kind of can project out the resources and we've recently added like the actual People so we can look and see like, okay, like this person can't be running these three projects. They're all at the same time That doesn't work So, yeah, we have ways of kind of projecting that and making sure that we're not over loading our team or over capacity With something that's coming in from sales. So I am losing losing hope in the utopia and kind of wish that everything could even out in an agency and You know everything like would just just work. It seems like it's feast or famine a little bit So you're bringing in clients and it's always too busy or you know, you're a little thin and I don't I don't know Exactly how to even that out and I really I don't even know if you can what you can do is just be as responsible as possible When you bring the client in you're letting them know as much as possible, you know what the timeline might be But obviously you don't know if they're gonna close and so you're making promises into air you've got your And and the truth is that they're aware of that as well Yeah, I mean so some junior junior clients some like maybe new to new to the web or something They may be surprised by this smaller smaller businesses may be surprised by this, but if they're They're at all know about you know web projects and agencies. They're gonna know that they they've got a deal with this and I Don't know. It's something that you can just just be confident that every agency deals with this instead of feeling like you're the only one in the World who does it right so Yeah Two questions. I know you're working with Ashley now, but who's your second favorite favorite PM that you've ever worked with And we know the right answer is that a leading question So so my real question Kyle and Ashley when you're working in such a I know both of you are remote from each other How do you keep the pace of conversation? That's necessary for PMs and sales to have you know while talking about clients making sure all those needs are conveyed between both parties Beyond kickoff things pop up in your mind and you write them down or do you immediately ping each other? How do you how do you combat the remote worker syndrome? Yeah, because we are a remote company as many of us are so Hip-chat is one good way. Yeah, I think the general way of Bringing up anything that kind of just pops into mind like oh, I really have to tell so and so we just Yeah, we ping them in hip-chat I Find it better to do that immediately and even so we're distributed and we're kind of all over the world so people may or may not be online and So I don't really even worry about whether or not whoever I need to talk to is online. I just Send the PM and they will read it. All right, but we're all kind of used to working that way. So it works I Find that better than keeping like a list of things that I have to remember to ask you. Yeah. Yeah. No and I think that One thing to remember is just an agency is made of people and so who you hire and who's working on the team Is really important so you're looking for quality if the quality isn't there if they're not Remembering and reaching out. There's an issue. So like if the ball is getting dropped an awful lot Then it's sort of important to kind of check in and see why you know why the ball is getting dropped I would say that keeping each other accountable having that kind of culture where it's okay to Approach each other and say hey listen, I mentioned this to you and nothing happened Why not if we can't do that with each other then we're not going to grow So it's really important and I think that that really has a lot to do with that communication thing because a lot of times There's a real good reason. We're either overworked or there's a real responsibility problem Or maybe even a personal work issue going on there because there's plenty of ways to communicate these days So I have a question about the transition plan And when does it happen you mentioned that it happens after the deal is closed What does it mean that you have a contract sign or you have an okay from the client? And there is a contract sign most likely they will be scoping their timeline cost Resources isn't it too late to change that when it goes to the p.m. And it's already signed Yeah, it is who does that contract and all that information Yeah, that's so that's it's a big question Project yeah, I don't think the mic was picking up. Okay. Yeah So when the deal is closed does it mean that there is a contract in place or there is just an okay from the client and who put together the contract including scope timeline Resources cost everything that goes into the contract Because my assumption is if the contract is signed and it's a done deal and it's very difficult to change things after that Or at least a lot of people can be unhappy. Yeah So It definitely depends on the type of clients that you're working with and and the agency that you're working with as well Because some clients are going like you know nonprofits or government for example may have specific contracts that you have to work with Like you can't bring your own contract to the table and have them sign that a lot of our clients do use our contract And so our contract does not tie us in to a specific timeline or scope We are a time of materials agency So we note in the contract that we are aware of the RFP of the of the proposal of any You know information that has been exchanged about you know the budget and the timeline But that like it basically says in the contract these things are all going to change once we get working with you And so we're going to redefine this as we as we continue working So that works perfectly fine with time and material it works in our situation Yes, if it's a fixed bid if every all of those details are already in the contract Then it is true that you are probably not going to be able to do much to change things Once the project has been sold and in that case I would definitely say that you'd need to beef up the kind of sales Communication with the people on your team who are You know providing estimates who are actually so that whatever is contracted at that point is going to be as close as possible to Reality one thing you may consider doing is rather than having a contract for the whole Engagement you may think about it in terms of like steps along the way So maybe like a $5,000 engagement to verify Everything that you think is true So you're signing a contract still but there's an expectation at the end of it You're gonna have to verify the scope and everything that makes it a little more comfortable for the client To bite on that and go ahead and move forward because maybe they like to work with you But there's still we got to figure out a way to get things started, right? So you cut that down quite a bit so you get a chance to work together and then move from there But typically it's gonna start when the contract signed and if not I mean if you're trying to get a perfect scope before you start how many hours you're willing to spend on that That's an agency decision. Different agencies come up with different Into this Circa where the client would not sign until you give them the final budget because they have a budget and For them to agree into getting into that contract You need to give them a fixed price Yeah, yeah, that's right, and it's an agency decision. Am I gonna work with that type of client or not now? There is like there is a big deal I don't know like how much you guys have sort of been aware in the sass in the sass-based world because you guys are all open source In the sass-based world people are willing to put a lot more time into exploration Because if they manage to close the deal then they get they get a client for a very long time They kind of have an expectation of what the lifetime value is for that client an open source You're doing a lot up front in order to hopefully close them But if it goes wrong they can quit you just like that, right? So you do less up front typically an open source and you should be able to communicate that that's part of understanding your industry Say listen, this is open source I know maybe like if they are working with sass they have time because you can explain that to your client We don't have that kind of time because we lose every bit here. So we have to basically We have to be paid for what we do because we you know, whatever. So does that make sense? There's not an easy answer for what you're saying. It's it's a it's a very complex decision to be made So we have about two minutes left We're waiting before yeah Personally, I apologize for my voice. I lost it on the way here. Not part beautiful on the way here So secondly, this is a brilliant presentation I think all of us as PMs feel a little relief to hear all of these things and know where the gaps are and definitely I find When working that the gap seems to hit it at handoff And so I really like the process that you've displayed, but it's ideal. That's ideal and Often we get five friggin minutes to download that handoff before we get it as PMs And then have to start resourcing and having sending off the kickoff and and sales Who also are sales account managers? They want to deliver and deliver and they're pushing us and they want it They want that meeting they want the internal kickoff. They want the audit. They want it. They want it. They want it now And so we all know that that ends up at the what the F which I just read your blog It was fantastic on estimating through how do you guys deal with that and Just opine about what happened to a project when When the handoff isn't done because that it's like a one-page document, but it is so important First just a quick I'm gonna give my quick perspective on this and that is that this all Lends back to agency culture So if the executives have decided that sales are more important then servicing the client Then they're gonna prioritize sales over whatever and if the executives have made that decision There's very little you can do about that unless you can convince them otherwise, right? That's why I say this is the number one reason why good agencies You know succeed or fail to thrive because you have to be client focused and decide that that's the most important thing in your Delivery before you're gonna so if you if you're working for an agency where they're just pushing you and it's the executive all the way To the top and they won't see reason how this is is hurting the client relationship and slow the process down and Create a reasonable environment for you Then that's a personal decision as well because you you have your own personal self-respect No, no, I don't even know what agency you work for I'm just I'm saying I'm like this is a problem in every agency I'm with right that pressure point, but it is actually a culture decision Like you have to you have to decide that the client is the most important And if the client's the most important then a good handoff process is is paramount Well, the Kyle would never do that to me So one thing that One thing that could help is so Maybe just a quick conversation with the sales to say how long did it take you to read through this? Documentation that you received and then you know they can give you an estimate Oh, it took you about two hours great I'm gonna block two hours in my calendar and then everybody on the team's calendar so that we can actually read through this documentation and until we have that your meeting is spent, you know going over detail, you know Going over details that were in the documentation Which I mean of course you are summarizing what's in the documentation, but you know it's it's Essentially a bit of a waste of time right if It's really important to be prepared and to actually know what the project at hand is and come with your questions because other you know Those questions are gonna just come up later then So yeah, I would maybe if you're if you have a bit of a difficult relationship they're not Understanding the need to have enough time to read the documentation ask them how long it took them and Block the time just block it in your calendar and say well you can see my calendar This is when I next have two hours to read through it So maybe we can do our internal kickoff then you know two days after that or whatever when we all have availability as far as projects that have poor transitions, so I mean You can kind of write the ship there You know you can still come out on top and have a successful project But it's going to be harder, you know because I mean essentially what it is is just kind of a big risk right if you didn't have a good transition then a lot of key information that was probably already given to your agency in the sales process hasn't been Hasn't been communicated to your delivery team So when three months later you find out that the client is you know going on vacation for a month Well, you know that could be a huge risk to your project, you know, so I Suppose if the transition isn't great, you're not getting the information from sales then the backup plan would be to just do that much more That much more detailed communication with the client and kind of At the very beginning of the project If you're not getting it from sales then you have to get it from somewhere so that the project can still be successful But what that's going to hurt is the client relationship because you don't have that you know that continuity that we were talking about Where they feel heard they because you know They're repeating themselves and they have to like kind of start all over and rebuild this relationship and that's not cool for them So the project can still be a success, but it may hurt the the relationship With the client, maybe you won't have that, you know longer relationship that you're hoping to build As a result of the poor transition So yeah, sorry, I think we're out of time