 Aloha and welcome to figments star of imagination and think that way. I'm Dan leaf. I go by fig I hope you know that because you've been watching before we get into today's episode I want to let you know that there'll be a special episode of figments on reality this Thursday more on that later Because we do have to get to this episode. I'm very excited about it The first the guest today is old friend of mine from being a young fighter pilot lieutenant colonel Rick Polini Cluso And the topic is a little deeper than the usual fighter pilot banter Imagined I could live with what I did and now coming to us from Okinawa, Japan Cluso Aloha and ohio goes. I am us Aloha fig and ohio I must to you. Hey, it's great to see it's been great to reconnect we go back Let's see 37 years or so to Okinawa. We're both young bucks flying fighters. And I was a little older than me then being here. Yeah, but I remember you which Since you were a young new at 15 by that could be good or bad But it's a good reflection because some some young pilots stood out and you were one of them You've written a book. That's what got my attention You wrote a book call sign Cluso an American fighter pilot in Mr. Reagan's Air Force And took it for you to go from that baby on the left to a book writing fighter pilot and the thinker that you are now That's quite a journey It is quite a journey and and as I outlined in my book I never really had an intention to write a book But it came to me one day at work that there was all these Unique little things in my life that kind of led me to where I am today And I highly I highly recommend the book desert storming folks. Yeah Whether you're interested in aviation or not, it's a good human story a very good human story Yeah, so that was my intent Well, I hope you're selling lots of them because people will learn by reading and I know you help there so you're selling lots of them but You weren't an author. You're just a fighter pilot and as we've discussed getting ready for this episode We were living the fighter pilot life. We're Young jet jockeys hanging around with other fighter pilots the picture on the left of the screen is me and my F-15 training class. That's you and in And your fighter weapon school class With your jet it now listen. I know a lot of those guys. They're great guys and real characters It was awesome. I could write a book just about my fighter weapon school class, but no It's classified and I'm not talking about the academics, but it was I mean, these are really uniquely vibrant bright Diverse believe it or not guys that you're hanging out with who are all extremely capable at a very difficult job Yeah, and you know that was a perception That I didn't have with the military. I didn't come from a military background. So when I got in the quality of the people that were around me is just like wow, this is This is quite an organization. This is something Happy to belong to you and it was fulfilling in that way. I learned something today from Active duty four star won't say the service of name since I didn't say I was going to tribute But 40% of Americans pursue some form of higher education after I slip Only 25% of Americans are even qualified to join the military Now that's not apples and apples, but From the lowest enlisted person to the most senior officer in general, there are always exceptions He will be astounded with the kind of the quality of our men and women in you Yeah, I have to wholeheartedly agree and it was but it was fun. We were in a peace time Air Force I mean, I know did you ever think you were gonna go to war? Well, you know at Kadena we have that that feeling and you show I think the picture maybe you have there I will now so there you go, but You have that feeling at Kadena and we were we had a poster on the 12th squadron weapon shop It said the war starts tomorrow and that's how we approached our business But yeah, definitely when I got to Aiglin and the Berlin wall came down which I was at weapon school and that happened it felt like pieces breaking out all over and We're never gonna have a war and then in August of 1990 that all changed and you went to war in Desert Storm and I'll talk about my combat experience which came later my real combat experience just to give a Bit of a reflection I train in air superiority in the mighty F-15 undefeated air superiority fighter And then one towards a wing commander in the air-to-ground mission dropping bombs and targets in Kosovo, Serbia And The one thing I have sure anytime I talk about combat stories. I have to say that on my first mission I was scared to death. They usually use a different term But I was so afraid that I wouldn't be able to perform It wasn't fear of anything else But I've been I've been being a macho fighter pilot for 25 years and I was scared to death I wouldn't do it I flew mostly nice missions Which was nice because you could see you when you're being shot at and that was information. I wanted to have Ignorance is not bliss in that case and they were intense, but they were grinding and unlike air to air Clueso We always knew we're gonna Expand ordinance and air superiority you can spend a lot of time in the combat air patrol before you see any migs, but That wasn't your experiences. I hope you'll share so tell me about being an air superiority pilot I'm I think you flew on the first night of Desert Storm Our first yeah, yeah, so I was the mission commander for the very first Fighter sweep into Iraq and as it turned out we got pushed early so we were literally the first at 15s to enter Iraq and It was night mission. We were well prepared. We rehearsed it. We're flying night visual formations if you can Yeah without night vision goggles right and And I would say I was afraid I think my biggest fear was going to the tanker with embedded thunderstorms. That was scary Mostly it was like that great Tom Wolf quote from the rights stuff is Lord, please don't let me screw up Yeah, that's not exactly the quote You didn't want to you didn't want to mess up To You know do something like take down friendly aircraft Or just mess up the mission Because once we pushed it was kind of autopilot The training autopilot A few times turn this Interrupted I'm purpose because I don't want our our viewers So to think that you're flying an airbus 380 or something. That's a figurative term That environment in an air superiority fighter is Is unbelievably busy. I think it's the most Dynamic multitasking environment So How about sharing with us everything you have to do from the time you commit to Attack an airplane to expending missile. What are what are you worried about? well just Operating the radar as it was at night and so we were going through some very specific brief Um techniques for how we maintain our separation maintain our speed Keep going same way same day We're going through different light drills as we got closer to the threat turning off more lights Communicating with AWACS and on that first night it was a radar They pushed us early because the Iraqis had launched Their alert aircraft early. So it was a busy picture We're trying to incorporate that picture building in the communications who's an actual threat Who's not because many of the Iraqi aircraft just turned away We had we had friendlies in front of us So you don't want to shoot by mistake? Yeah, and they since we pushed early they were complicating the picture Um, and then we just started to pick out things. I mean fortunately we broke out of the weather Just as we hit the the border There and yeah, you could see all the all the shooting going on which I'd never seen before it was amazing Yeah, it makes fireworks displays kind of boring doesn't it? So, um, at least you've got somebody to help you with this in your aircraft No, you don't you're flying alone And I think you're doing all this with your two hands on the throttles and on the stick And we call it playing the piccolo But the f-15 was I think the best engineered airplane ever for working the magic of all the systems you have Yeah, and and training had got us to that point where it just became natural So so what really was the That saturation was dealing with the unknown And being in combat for the first time In the contrast to say world war two or korean war The flight later would look for bandits and the wingman Would cover his six would protect him In your f-15 all of you are prepared to engage each of you has a set area to look With your radar and with your eyes in that area is defined both by altitude and geography So Everybody's busy. It's not just somebody hanging on flying formation. And I think that's a huge transition Did you know the guys you were flying with well? Did you've been flying with them for a while? I did I did because we had really been together as a squagger and you know for two years and virtually Everybody that was there with us and we had some great experience Especially in that first night cheese grater Was my number five the leader of the other four ship and then my number three was jb kelp They have both come from The pacific in europe so they had great experience and large force employment People I could just totally rely on And so and like I said, we've been flying together as paired four ships for four or five months So we knew each other You know upside and down and that just helped with the confidence You can't overemphasize the importance that it you can see a wide receiver and a quarterback who are in Bingie and the ball the quarterback just knows where to put the the ball But it's that times many For a four ship that's been flying together and you don't have to guess and the other beauty of it is You don't have to talk very much on the radio Nowhere near as much as if you're working with a stranger There was a lot of talking that night Really? I'm not I I don't know if you remember but I'm a big shut up I usually say it differently on the radio guy and The the wing at aviano adapted to that motor earlier. No color commentary Very it's what you're going to say is not going to make me do something then shut up Okay. Well, we're going to talk a little bit about the actual shootdown first. I would like to Briefly plug the special episode of on reality Figments on reality. It's going to be on if the not usual date and time on the one o'clock on the 26th thursday of Next this week boy. It's a busy week and I'm going to talk more about afghanistan. I'm going to go specifically into what went wrong in the withdrawal Again, this is non political commentary. I'm not going to Blame it on a person or a party or anybody but I'm going to talk about the things that went down militarily because they're Stunning and we have to learn lessons from things that go this badly so Back to flying combat, you know, I talked about my experience I appreciate you not giving me grief about being a bomb dropper because we who flew the f-15 or Okay, we're ego pilots not just the ego pilots But came late my career 20 46 years old for beats a one-star wing commander operation allied force and we But it was kind of a search and destroy mission Because there was a muddy situation with the ethnic cleansing that was going on in cosco We'd find targets and then we kill them. Sometimes we had pre-planned targets, but Most of the missions I flew we were seeking out the enemy and then attacking it And I'll share briefly On april 12th 1999. I was on one of those missions flying in the wing of my cleaning safety officer and At 16 also single seat. We had laser guided bombs and stuff And this is the very short version of the target we Found a convoy of serb the irregulars who were burning muslim homes in kosu and Is our job to stop that This is a much longer story when properly told But in essence, I dropped a 500 pound bomb that took out two or three vehicles enabled my Wait my flight lead The safety officer to take out the gas truck they were using to fuel their fires And it was the first time I ever killed people And knew it and saw it and two very Seemingly in congress things happened. I keyed the radio and said to my wingman even though i'm big on radio discipline I was in that moment We had stopped these guys maybe 300 meters from the next town they were going to build I keep the mic and said I love my job and At the same time I thought, you know, I'm a death penalty opponent because you shouldn't kill unless you have to and we have to There's kind of a moral epiphany if there's actually much more detail in that you Shot down in mid 25 thought you killed the pilot focus through the engagement and how this happens Yeah, so um, it started with the fact that this mission was not a fragged or a cast mission So that whole Idea in the book how things just happened on the moment and it seems by you know circumstance, but I think there's a bigger reason Anyway, we got launched on this special mission because we're the only guys available to go sit Cap for some skut hunters. This is day three of the war. So There's can't protect other aircraft looking at their destroyer. Yeah Yeah so While we're waiting a navy package is coming out of the bagdad area and They're being chased down by Iraqi migs and so the awacs commits us on those And we I'm leading the four ship now and We put ourselves in a cutoff position and get there in time And it's two big 29s and they break off the attack and head back northeast towards bagdad And right after that two more migs pop up about 30 miles north And at this point it looks more like an iraq iraqi tactic And we I would find out later. It was an iraqi tactic. Yeah, there's a reason we're trying to trap some eagles and so what happened was We I turned the flight into the two aircrafts of the north and they turned out to be make 25s We plan I plan bbr engagements with our the unvisual range and these fox fat pilots did a great job Defending against our missiles and our radars all the way up until we ended at a visual merge Which was not the plan Where you could see actually see the airplanes are fighting Yeah, and uh and that idea that all you'll never you know Dogfighting combat again that people were saying it's like well, that's not true. Look at this here Anyway, so it turned out to be a classic ACM air combat maneuvering fight with me and my wingman Larry cherry pits and the fox fat that I had targeted left the fight at high speed and low altitude With no chance for me to engage him and so it was two versus one in a visual About a one to to one and a half mile fight Classic bfm fight and cherry was camped behind his fox bat and I was supporting him and we're both shooting missiles and uh cherries And the fox bats were defending with chaff and flares very well And eventually one of cherries aim sevens gets there the pilot ejects my aim nine follows right after that And as i'm coming off that Facts that my auto acquisition mode grabs the other fox bat Coming back into the fight And cherry sees him also and calls him out And I was able to rather quickly convert to his six o'clock That about a little over a mile And I had issues with ideing him because it looked a lot like an f-15 Right, I didn't know where my number three important gone and I knew there might be tomcats in the area And so I go through a rather complex lot process and communication and trying to verify but Intellectually asked everybody that who was friendly to come out of afterburner because this airplane was in burner, right? Yeah, so that you could tell the difference I had actually figured it out by visual recognition at that point And I started shooting and I had some similar problems as cherry that he was defeating A couple of my shots But eventually my second aim seven Got to the aircraft and when it got there it was it was a big explosion And I had not seen the pilot Eject and so my assumption was if he was still in the airplane, he didn't make it out So the airplane basically vaporized, right? I mean it just it pretty much death star vaporized Yeah, uh, it was it was it was actually shocking And I I remember that I know that feeling from dropping my first two live two thousand pounder in combat With a secondary. Yeah, it was shocking Yeah, and uh up to that point. I probably had some tunnel vision and temporal distortion I was so focused on the fight and the task but when that thing blew up. It just like whoa I'm cleared cleared up You know the saving private ryan the opening scene When tom hanks is on the beach and he kind of comes out of that France right like that yeah and Boy, we could talk for a long time on that and would see the scene even longer because of dimple distortion But we got to move on because I want to get to the main point of this Discussion so you're a midkiller and you go back and land at your base How did that feel? I mean, this is the ultimate for a fighter pilot, right? Yeah, uh all the way back. I had already kind of passed on some other targets on the previous missions to other guys who got Got the kills and uh, this was my turn Uh, it was a fulfillment of a you know Of my career to that point as every fighter pilot wants to do. Yeah, we did eight or on in victory rolls nice and uh Me and cherry, you know had a victory celebration on the ground just like the top gun scene And we were just elated the ground crew maintenance weapons guys were just cheering And it was everything you thought about And so now it's back to normal life and life in the airport because you stayed and served Got some normal life pictures that I put together you and your bride You and the kids And then you in general pliever. I I suppose that's when you actually receive the dfc for the Should that doesn't yet distinguish flying cross folks. It's a big deal Um So It was normal life and you became a squadron commander Uh, and you're moving up. You're a midkiller. You're a weapons school graduate may lieutenant colonel. You're in command But you chose to retire Why? um, oh, that's That's well covered in the book, but I well that does work take like I come to the conclusion That I had grown a lot As an officer as a fighter pilot I had not grown very much as a human being And I just needed to move away In reconciling the fact that in your mind you believed you had killed another human being Is that part of uh I'm sure that was part of it. That wasn't a conscious part at the time I was making the decision that kind of came later As I was getting out and I turned to my buddhist practice and came to an ability to to To understand what was going on there And how I need to do that. I have a photo that asks you in In both modes. It's an early photo of you So non-air force attire and then your official photo So you you Began practicing buddhism and and due to this day And stayed in japan. So I guess you're telling me that this reflection on humanity and The fatal nature of war came later that you grew into it as you grew as a human being Yeah, because because up to that point I had buried that I buried it Within the hours after it happened because I could not get to sleep Thinking about the human being in that foxtap and so I I I came to a conclusion that it was him or me You know press on and so I buried that little dark Dark matter in my heart and carried it with me and that's not a good thing to do And I came to that realization Yeah, not good in How did it affect you? Is it kind of a PTSD or was it Just kind of forced compartmentalization and you know, I've never been diagnosed with that but I I have A sense that there's some level of anxieties or whatever that go along with it that if you if you Allow that dark darkness to stay there eventually it attracts more And and it can grow and so it affects your life. You have to come to terms with it at some point And you you eventually found out closer not to spoil the book Like said read it, but you eventually found out that the mig 25 pilot had in fact survived That's that's what I was told through Contacts, uh, what Doug will be in tom cooper in writing their book and also my book And but that doesn't Fortunately, fortunately he survived Fortunately, I don't think it changes the reflection because I don't know how many people were killed on april 12th 1999 Maybe nobody found that hard to believe But the reflection once you let yourself do it is Liberating and so I think yeah, it is liberating and uh, it's necessary for Not just for your own piece of mind book for the world Yeah, and we've changed the world by changing One person at a time and that has to start with us And it's so easy to not go there It's much easier to not go there than take the time to ponder and You know if it hadn't been that specific moment that I described that might not gone there I dropped a lot of other bombs. I saw targets blow up, but there was nowhere near as personal and the I thank god that I Had a chance to reflect and I'm on that same journey to grow as much as a man as I did as a fighter pilot Well, uh, we could go on and on and on and unfortunately we have a minute and a half left And we talked about doing a part two We could talk about other things you booked like how your dad encouraged you inspired you to pursue a career in aviation your music Which we haven't even talked about but people can see part of a guitar over your shoulder But let's give the book one more plug here and clue. So how can they buy? Or download call sign clue. So It's it's on all major. I have a facebook page call sign clue. So it's on all the major book selling Amazon Barnes and Noble and so forth case mate is the publisher So you can find it there plus all the links. So it's it's not too hard to find And it's much more. I've got an apple books. It is much more than a flying book folks. Let me say that and Let me finish by asking clue. So what's your current figment? What do you want to do next? Uh, I just want to continue my human revolution Um, that's that's Continue to grow as as a human and you know, um, that's you know, I I don't have specific Well, that's good But uh, it's it's really help others You know grow as much as you can. It's what you're doing right now fig You know, come to some self realization some and let self enlightenment and help others to do the same Well, you're doing that, uh clue. So it's been great to reconnect. We'll be in touch I'm sure and I hope you get to the wire sometime So what would fig do is one of the things I always say Here's what fig would do value of human life all human life even that of your enemy And as I said in my on reality last week We need to take more moral approach to the use of lethal force and come As a nation it's fundamental concern So I'd like to thank think tech Hawaii for giving me the chance to share my views and introduce them to clue so And remind you that they are a nonprofit. They need your support. So please go to their website and think about Donating Thanks for watching folks again Next thursday this coming thursday figments on reality special edition Mahalo and aloha