 All right, please go ahead. Okay, so I'm going to call the finance committee meeting of December 11, 2023 to order at 3pm. And given the current changes that have been made to the open meeting laws and stop local. This meeting is being held. By electronic means and members of the public. Have access to the meeting quiet zoom and by telephone. I do want to remind everybody that this meeting is being recorded for both audio and visual purposes. And the agenda for today's meeting subject to, of course, the order can be very. But we have public comment. We were going to go over the budget guidelines discussion from last night and see what changes that we would propose to make for the final draft. Which we'd go back to the council on the meeting on December 18. I think Kathy is prepared to lead us in a discussion about to carry over memo. And that that's essentially it because well it says schedule next committee meetings I don't think we. At the conclusion of this meeting are going to feel that there's a need for this committee to meet again and then it really is up to. Whoever is appointed to the next committee. So. Is there any questions about the agenda Athena. There are also I put several many, many sets of minutes in the packet for today. I don't expect the committee will get through all of them. I don't expect that members have reviewed all of them. So my suggestion was to authorize a member. To approve the minutes from March 28 to December 12, or if you're planning a meeting on the 15th, then December 15. Okay, and you added that to the agenda. So, thank you for reminding me of that. And we'll add that anything else in comments about the agenda for today just reading a note on that. I just want to remind myself. Seeing none, then, let's see if there's any participants from the public. You need to make sure we can hear and be heard. Correct. We got through the list just to check attendance. Anna. Hi everybody present. Lynn. Present. Bob. Present. Is Matt here I don't think so. I don't see that. Bernie told me that he would not be available today so we know that he's not going to be here. Kathy. Yep, I'm here. And I'll show you said was going to be a few minutes later. Just for her. As far as attendees from the public, there's nobody from the public presence at the current time. So we could come back to public comment later if members of the public do come. Since there was no public comment last night, I didn't know if there's going to be public comment tonight at this meeting about the guidelines. Therefore, what I was going to propose to do is to aid this discussion. I took the notes from last night's meeting and Mandy sent, who was one who offered some significant comments, sent a copy of what she had written. They were handwritten version. And what her thoughts were about the guidelines to me. And I, she did not speak to the all of the little edits that she made she only said to what were her major concerns. And those were the only ones that I reflect on the document so what I was going to do is have Lynn put a document on the screen. And what I did was where there were significant changes that she mentioned during the meeting. They are incorporated in the document so that the sense that you're seeing now has several things that came up in the executive summary section and things that she had suggested for changes. So, and then, but there are some some further down. You will see as we go through it that there are things in the comment boxes section that actually need discussion. And that's for a moment so you can see what these suggestions were. I think that a major one was that she just wanted to make sure that we didn't imply that breasts and DEI were more important than other departments, but that all services are equally important, including those two departments. So I took that comment and suggested some changes in that longer section. So Andy, as we go through, if we pass something, let's indicate we've accepted it and I will show that in the document. Whatever. That's fine with me. I'm, if you want us just to chime in to make it easier, I'm fine with that. And as I can see it, Lynn, will you just be You can do it anyway you want to do the revised draft or keep it in track change it but I would accept that, you know, as Andy said the, the change that's a lot of blue ink was just to make it clear that these weren't the only essential ones. I think the rewriting does that. Right. So that this is really good. Thank you Kathy for mentioning that I think what we have done in the past is to show a marked up version and then a clean version so I will leave this is marked up unless we change it. Okay. Okay. So I'm fine with those changes. So am I this for the record. Do you want to go on. Yep, yep, yep, because I think the next one is actually going to be a little bit more problematic because it's going to come out as a comment box I believe. Yep. Okay, so what happened to us is that this one I did do changes. The suggestion was to be that I think it was the suggestion was to be more specific and clear about what will happen if there is an increase in state aid that the state would first go to reducing any deficit. And then afterwards we need to make sure that we would know if there is more of an increase than just needed to balance the budget, how a decision gets made. I suggest the word in order to address that point that Mandy was making that what do we do if there is more of an increase the needed to balance the budget. What is our recommendation so I wrote this up, but that's, this is the needs to have your discussion and as to whether it's what you want to say as a committee or whether you have an alternative suggestion. I, I do. I have an alternative. The way you've written it. We're talking about the paragraph you projected no increase right that's the paragraph we're talking about. I'm just going to refer saying if there's a significant and I'll just try to say it quickly if it's a significant increase in state aid. Beyond what would balance the budget. So Lynn. It's going to go in the upper paragraph but you can write it here because he's got. A recommendation that you come back to the council with a recommendation. As opposed to giving it to the. Invening the budget coordinating group. Exactly. So, if we want to focus first on the policy discussion. So this is, I think, what happened last time, Bob and others may remember we did get more than we planned. Sean came up with everyone gets this more money. It was a done deal because the library built it in right away as did everyone else. I think it would have been better to come with a recommendation and have a discussion about it. We may end up with equal increases. So I would like this wording and then up above where increases, if there was a deep reduction in projected revenues, I think that's still fine. So I would delete the increase in state aid if there were rejection. If there's a reduction, we have to come back to the whole thing. So I would leave that sentence without the increase in state aid added in it. He's trying to figure out where you are. If the, just after that says, if there's a significant, it says, if there's a significant increase in state aid or rejected, I would remove the words that Andy added there completely. So it and leave, if there's significant reduction, that's fine. And then put this if state aid. So it was, it was to go with what Mandy observed is that we're a deficit is projected right now. If the state went up by more than the deficit, what would we do. And so, so this sentence addresses our recommendation on what to do. So that's my suggestion of the way to handle it. So she, she asked us to come back with a policy. And so I'm, I'm proposing a policy, which is different than what we did a year ago. My memory of it. Yeah, it is. It was kind of a done deal. Sean came up with we've got this much more money. This is how everybody's budget adjusts. There any members of the committee who have a different view from what Kathy just expressed. I just want to point out that I added to that sentence. Recommendation regarding the distribution of those additional funds. That's exactly what I meant. I didn't know what to exactly where did where's the money go. And because we get the state aid information pretty late. But by then we might know whether we've really got a gap somewhere that we need to fill. So that's why I wanted to have a discussion first rather than it's 333 right now everyone gets 3% rather than deciding everyone goes to 3.5 or whatever the number is. So that's my suggestion of what to insert there to address Mandy. Mandy basically was asking that we give put in the guideline what to do. If this happens. Okay, but what is this suggestion. Wait a minute. Let's see. I remember wanting to get the council sports continuation of the policy that reserve funds should not be used to support recurring expenses for reasons. Okay, that was just to move. Right. So that's okay. The next one. This is actually a fairly significant point and Kathy agreed with it, but it requires help from Holly, probably, or for one of our finance experts but Mandy's question was, one of the $3,294,285 needs to be reserved just to continue this compensation of current employees because we don't know what the cost of the salary increases or are negotiated increases and the funding agreements is required. And what if there's anything left over afterwards, or any other purposes. And I think you then made a statement a little bit later in the meeting, supporting that position and pointing out that this requires the information from our finance department staff. So Holly and Jennifer the, I don't know how difficult or easy this is but of the, the idea is to cover the wage, health insurance and pension increase compared to baseline. What is the cost of that. And so is that a million and a half is that 2 million. And I know you've got it in all sorts of different parts of your budget so we're not trying to give you a major research project on. Two weeks before the holidays. So it was a question of, is it possible to calculate that. So like health insurance is you know what the 12% increase will cost us presumably you know on the pension side, and the wages, this would be particularly it would be schools library and our staff. I want to point out, you've already said this. Those are presently in the budget. That's the projected budget. So it would mean a mad aggregating them. Basically what we've already learned with the projected budget is that with those built in and anything else projected forward in the budget. We have a $200,000 deficit. Exactly and, and if this is a really difficult number to do it it was a suggestion and then maybe in future years so I'm just looking on. Lynn that's exactly the point you know that if, if wages and benefits alone, take up a lot, you know, so people keep thinking there must be some wiggle room in this budget, and the answer is no it's really tight. So I just, I'm just looking to Holly and Jenna on how difficult, so we can we say this, it's much time for pressure to calculate this or if you've got a number we just would write a sentence with a blank in it. Okay, so I would you like me to quickly speak to that. Yes. So it certainly can be done, but it is going to take a bit of time because I mean, unfortunately, the way that we budget is literally by the person. Two of our unions have very, very recently settled so I have not got all of their projections for the next year in yet, because we we literally go person by person for this one. I can, I can work on getting a number there it's not going to be something that I can just answer quickly it will take time by the time the budget is is ready to be presented we certainly have all of that in there but that right now is still a work in progress. Should we, I mean we can say this would be nice to have in the future but not do it now is what I mean I don't think this is urgent enough for you to spend time. My opinion is that asking you to spend time between now and next Monday does not make sense to me. If it's not kind of easy to do. It's not that simple I could get some some rough numbers but it. I'll have to take a look at it. So, so my recommendation Andy is to say we can't do this right now but if a number appears we can insert a sentence. My assumption had been I think when we were when we were writing the draft. The first time is that prior experience has been that by the time you do salary increases and health insurance increases. It really has spoken for virtually all of the 3%. We just were making an assumption and what Mandy was asking is. And we prove it. And I think the answer is no because at this point in time, we're making you were going under the best estimation possible and that's what we were acting on, which is what you were acting on on the budget that you presented at the financial indicators meeting. So Bob has his hand up Andy Bob. Yeah, I was just going to I agree with Kathy that this is a nice to have this year. But I don't see how I don't think it's worth it worth all these time or the time of staff to do this. I agree with you Andy that it's probably going to eat the 3% is probably going to be taken up by people costs. I think going forward it would be good to have a summary of what we're spending, you know, on various, you know, capital projects, wages, you know, I mean, it would be nice to have that broken out in a table at some point. So that we can, we can understand where the increases are going. But again, I think this year. Given that I think, you know, I think the. The settlements with the unions were we're just. We just renegotiated everything. Is that correct Holly? You know, this year. So. Next year we'll have a much better idea of what the salary increases are. Going forward. I believe four of our five unions settled into of them, I believe, or like within the last month or so. So those ones I don't have. I'm working on it, but I'm just not even close to finished yet. There's another problem here, and which was the 3.294 million was in the revenue, but the revenue then gets split up also with. Regional schools. Amherst schools library and other expenses. So it's not like that's a number that is attributable to even the expenses that are the municipal budget expenses. I think what Lynn has done is in a common bubble is the right way to do this and then say, you know, we can do a cover memo saying we didn't do it, but we recommend that we think about it for next year. And so we could just move to the next part of this. I don't want to make a promise for our next create an expectation for next year if it's not. No, but it's just this time. I would just say literally that it's too time consuming to do now what Lynn has done makes sense. This time of the, at this time of the budget process. It's not just this year. Yeah, Holly's gutter. Don't create expectations for next year. Okay. Andy Holly has her hand up. Yeah, Holly. I'm sorry. I just wanted to briefly respond to and saying that when it comes to the elementary schools. Personnel, I do not do projections on that that would be a request to the school. We don't do there. We don't do their personnel. So I just wanted that to be clear. So this is a difficult exercise period yet to me. A little bit. Yeah. I want to just clarify. What we're trying to point out to people is that whatever increase in this case, 3 million something that we are expecting. It's already spoken for. It's not like all of a sudden we have this much more cash we can distribute. Do you propose saying that? No, I'm just, I want to even this will be needed. This will be needed to cover employee wages, benefits, supplies, building and more. As these costs are known, they are already included. And we do say that. I mean, I know we're reading on the revenue, but when we get expenses, we point out that salaries are going up by this much. What health insurance is going up by that much pensions. This is like, makes this a really tight budget. So we've got all that wording later. Yeah. I think this is, I think this is fine for now. Actually to hold on for just a second. I might take out two words and just say, as these costs are known, they are included in the budget. And the reason is that. Holly. And. We'll be. Working with Jennifer and whoever else in the department. In coming up with numbers to put into the final budget. And that's where they really develop that information. And that is, we will see that. As the increases in the budget. When we're presented in May 1st. So, Andy, let me push further on that. As these costs are known, they are included in the budget. But they are actually included under different departments and units of government. So it's not like at one point in the budget, we say here is what personnel and benefits are. In the budget, we say here is what personnel and benefits cost. That's true. You want to add. You can say in the departmental budgets and then you would get the plural. Right. And then you got to take the other budget out. No. It's satisfactory to everybody. Yeah, I just, I don't want somebody to think that somehow or another, they're going to look at the budget book and see a salary, a benefit. Number for everybody. Okay. Okay. All right. This was language that. I'm perfectly fine with this. Yes. So what do you want me to do with the comment? Just get rid of it. Yeah. When we. I can just say resolved. Yeah, we'll have to decide what are we. In a final draft, all of that goes away. But here for the purposes of people feeling they've been heard, we can just say resolved. Yeah. You know, you've got that reply button when that you can just put, if you hit reply, it says resolved. Yeah, I know I already did that. Yeah. Okay. Moving along. See, I just hit resolved. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I didn't see. Okay. Moving along. I think this was one where. She just made a. And written suggestion on rewording. I want to push on this. Are we saying to we ensure that the grant budget. Or that the town's budget. I think that what she was referring to actually is that we make sure. That we have the capacity to apply for grants that would be a value to the town. Then I think, because this, this has been brought up several times this year. Okay. This is the world I worked in for many years. So we want to make sure we want to ensure. That the town has the resource enough resources. Either within its own budget or the grant to support these goals. Yeah, her wording, this change in wording doesn't do that when I think it doesn't work. No. The old wording. Basically was saying we need, you're probably going to need more money. We urge you. We urge you to take steps to ensure or seek financial enhancements to ensure that the budget. And that's what we had. So maybe. But I think before it didn't say the budget has resources to. Achieve these goals and shifting it to say. That you might need to seek financial enhancements, but that the budget should support these goals. I think it strengthens the idea that the budget should support financial enhancements. That's the only way to prioritize climate action. So it's urged you. So I'm agreeing with you. So our original wording. Was we urge you. To seek. We originally said we urge you to continue to seek financial enhancements to support these goals. I think that's good wording actually. But I think, but I think I agree, Kathy, but I think that what we could do to get it. I think that's good wording. I think that's good wording. I think that the seeking financial enhancements is one way, but what's more important is to ensure that we have the resources. And so in my mind, it would read. Best as. Urge you to continue to seek such financial enhancements to ensure the budget has enough resources to support these goals. It's just moving that. Or and ensure. I think that's good wording. Yeah. Thank you. Can I also look at the sentence. It's not just in climate action. That we've been very successful with grants. Yep. I would also, I would almost say. I think Lynn, I think we should add it elsewhere. I don't think we should take it out of this. Well, then why don't we say climate action and other goals. Well, it does say, and other needs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lynn, if you want to do comma, including roads. No, no, I'm, it's more than just roads. I mean, we get so many grants. We get them for police. We get them for fire. We've got them for, we've got them for parks. We've got them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's why we. Had written it originally. Climate action and other. Needs. And that was because we were getting so much pressure. Around doing more for climate action. And we were trying to point out that climate action is a place. We can get goals. I think that. It was all a criticism. That we were getting around that one specific. Need that got us there. How about other goal areas. And other goal. You can say other goals. Right. That works. Yeah, it was just a lower. Um, I'm going to pause for a second by the way. We. Members of the public have come into the meeting. After we started, when we started the meeting on time. There were, we admitted public comments solely because there was. No one else that no one from the public was present. We will come back and do public comment, but we are now proceeding. Through a draft of the. Guidelines. Which has comments that arose at last night's discussion. I don't know what's going on now, but we will get back to public comment. Thank you. We're back to the. I think Bob was. Yeah, I. If I, I know I wasn't at the meeting, but. I'm wondering whether what Mandy was trying to say is. We need to show we need to ensure that we have. Enough money in the budget to pay somebody to. Right grants. I mean, I think it was. It's, it's that part that's not in what we're, what we already have there. It's not just right. It's actually managed them once we get to manage them. Yes. But I mean that we don't, I think that's maybe what we need to say is something to that effect that. That we need. Staff time in order to. Right. Get these grants and manage these grants. So do you, Bob, if you would you put has enough resources? I hate long sentences. Comma, including staff comma to support these goals. That's fine. Because that's been one of the issues that. Bringing in money and not being able to. Do something. I think one of the clarifying points is that not every grant we get is for a continual program that needs budget support forever and ever. Right. And so I think that that's my one of my other things is just because. It won't be in the budget forever doesn't mean we shouldn't still do it. We just need to make sure it's explicitly stated that this program will end at a certain point or will, you know, I think that that. For me, that's more important is to seek out that funding and. You know, if it's something we plan to continue in perpetuity, then a funding plan beyond the grant needs to be presented, but. Not everything needs to continue in perpetuity that is grant funded. And so just, I think it's more about clarifying and managing expectations. So I think that support these goals is broad enough that some might mean permanent shifts and some might mean. One time grants that fund one specific thing. If that. I think that's, that's, I think with the concern that was being alluded to last night was that if we. We don't want to put language in here that is discouraging seeking out grants just because we don't have staff or because we don't know that we can continue them forever. And I think what Mandy's point was is that we, we kind of need to get, we need to pick either the keep using the chicken and egg metaphor, but we need to pick one. We need to get staff to seek out and manage these grants in order to continue to pursue them. I think I just talked to myself. There is another section on grants later in the guidelines because it comes comes up in this. Actually expenditure section. That's what I was trying to pull up Andy. Thank you. If we could. There's a comment box there too. Yeah. I think the wording actually covers it to tell you the truth. I think so too. Yeah, I do too. All right. Remind and when we go down the document you get there, but let's hand them an order. This is the biggie the next one. We spent a lot of time. We probably spend more time. Last night in the end talking about. But. But, but Andy, you mean on council compensation. We had a specific no other elected boards. Yeah. So we said if the language we came up with last night. That was if there is a decision to increase compensation for other. Elected boards. We recommend you include them in the budget. When did the recommendation have to come? I think that there was also discussion. About timing of the recommendation. And when. The budget is being developed and. Recommendation is made. After the budget development, then what is what are you going to do? Well, maybe you say you propose a way to fund them. Because it was a. If something happens, you need to be prepared. Was the way it came up. Provide a recommendation on how to fund them. It's like an awkward sentence to me, but let's read it. By the way, the only other board. I mentioned this last night that gets any compensation is in fact the school board. Yeah, but you have to remember if you go back to the charter. The charter didn't limit. It just provided in the transition section. I don't know if only the school committee was. Getting it, but I don't think that the charter. Says that there can. The other board can. Compensated, I don't know. Bob has his hand up. Yeah, I just. I mean, I understand what. Mandy is getting at here, but I think it would be. I don't see how we could fund these in FY, in the FY 25 budget. Or the FY 24 budget. You know, it's. You know, the FY 25 budget. Sorry. I mean, if it. If we decide, if there is a decision to increase compensation or to compensate boards. I think it has to wait until the next budget year. In order to be implemented. I don't see how we have any rule in this, this year's budget. To do that. And I'm. I have years or hand up and I do to them. So I would edit your sentence to address what Bob, we, we take out. We. We ask you to provide a recommendation on how they may be funded. Take out the rest because I don't think. You know, we ask that. So. If there's a, if we ask that you, and then take out the funds sufficient. Yeah. Provide. Yeah. Because if you say it that way, it's, it can come back as this can't be funded until FY 26. Yeah, but I just want to point out the discussion in the past was $1,000 for school committee. There are only five school committee members. It's only $5,000 more. And I realize that's 5,000, but. I'm having a hard time figuring out. Well, I don't think that it precludes. Doesn't preclude that. That, you know, $5,000 in FY 25, I just think. You know, we shouldn't open the floodgates. For other boards. I would agree with that. Yeah. And this language doesn't stop him from saying. It's small enough. We've got the wiggle room and the budget. Right. It doesn't stop anything. Can I ask a question? How does this decision get made? I think somebody from the. Council has to. Make a motion, but. You know, it's a practical matter. You probably would get there. It would be because of a request from the school committee or because they asked the school committee whether they thought. The compensation. Increase was appropriate. Okay. So it, to me, it's highly unusual language to put in at all since we're not facing it, but we, we have a. Okay. This is what you would do. I think we need to include something. Yeah. So that wording seems to be fine. This cover. Okay. With this wording. Okay. Got it. Okay. This could include something happened here. Just one second. Probably just wouldn't put in language that she. Mandy had actually pointed that out too. And then it was a suggestion I have to go back. This is just a random. It's, it's done. Okay. This is a. Now it's off again, but the. I think this is a big thing to add in a financial guideline for the following year. It's more we want him. The suggestion was. How much revenue are we getting from the solar that we put in. And what are we doing with the savings? You know, so I think from the. Big installation we have apparently it's. It's offsetting most of the utility cost, electricity costs of town buildings. As I recall the, the revenues from. The solar on the landfill are going to the solar waste fund. Is that correct? Yes, I think so. Alicia has joined us. Hi, thank you. And I didn't want to interrupt the conversation, but did just want to let you all know that I was here. Thanks. I, you know, Mandy's wording land is that we're recommending that he report on it, right? We recommend that he report. You know, based on president, we, we recommend you report. On revenues. I think that wording is okay if people don't think it's too. You know, and I'll give you an example in the, in the future next two years, three years from now. The school solar panels will be offsetting utility costs in the school. And we have a, where does that go? Yeah. We recommend, we recommend not read recommendation. We recommend. How's that? I, to me, that reads fine. Yeah, I agree. Okay. So we resolve this. Yeah. Before you go on, I think that the problem that we still have about corrected. We don't need to worry about it now. Just above this. Good include. I corrected that Andy. It just needs to be closed up as a single. When she does simple markup, it's fixed. It's fixed. It's fixed. Okay. It just isn't showing as fixed. Okay. Alicia, what's happening is that I made notes. Last night's meeting and then they're recorded is either changes or comment boxes. So these were all things that came up last night. So can I speak to this next one, Andy? I think. Okay. Replacements is cool. The one that. And I think we should literally say here, which is what was our understanding. We recommend that any. Rebates. Obtained for the entire inflation reduction act from these investments. Go back to this capital stabilization fund. That was always the intent. We recommend that any rebates obtained from. Re. Refunds from what? It's the same from the inflation reduction act for. The, if you want to say for the state, I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. So, um, the, if you want to say for the solar and geothermal investment. That's where it's coming from. Can I suggest that there may be other. Funds besides this. So. Or other fun or similar funds, comma, or similar funds. Yep. That they should. Go back to the capitalization. any rebates obtained from the, or similar funds. Just, I would take out that they just should go back to the capitalization, capital stabilization fund. Yeah. And Andy, I made a comment I shouldn't have last night on North Amherst Library. Hey, I don't think there is anything. So I would just take that out of your comment box. Okay. I mean. Because I double check, we're putting many splits in there. We're putting air source and they're not eligible. So I would just, I would just take it out. There, since it was said we can't take it out, but I said not applicable. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so this is resolved. Got it. Molly has her hand up. Yeah, Holly, hi. I just want to go back to what you were just speaking about with rebates from, and I'm not 100% sure what the conversation was, but I just want to caution you that if that is something that you think that the town council is going to be interested in doing, it's going to be one of those similar type of situations, similar to the cannabis money and the opioid settlement money. It's going to have to be general fund revenue. It's going to have to fall to free cash that you're going to have to move it in a subsequent fiscal year. So it's going to take that sort of process. It can't just go back, especially if it's received in later fiscal years and things like that. So in order to put that money into the stabilization funds, it's going to have to go through that process just so you're aware. Is there anything we should say here that says it should be tracked or something like that? First of all, thank you for reminding us of that, Holly. I think this stuff, it's just that we recognize there's a process to put it back into that fund. Right, and that's all I just wanted to make sure you folks were aware. It's not that simple with a lot of these things. It certainly can be done, but it's not something that when the money comes in, we can just dump it in there. It has to go through those processes. It will fall to free cash and then it has to be appropriated to put back. Yeah, thank you for the reminder because... It's complicated. That's where I mentioned there was more discussion about grants. Yeah, I think it was a comment on this paragraph, not a question of changing it. That's what I thought, but I was duty bound to take my notes from last night and place somewhere. I don't have any issue with this paragraph. Yeah, I don't either. All right, and I think I said that actually, but I think that was it actually, I'm pretty confident. And I don't think I missed anything. So I think what we should do next is go back to the public comment because if any public comment has to do with the budget guidelines, I don't want to take action to say, okay, send it back to the council. We just amended it. So if it's okay, I will ask for public comment. And so as a matter of policy, Finance Committee always provides an opportunity for public comment. We ask that comments be limited to a few minutes, but can deal with any subject that is relevant to what's assigned to the Finance Committee. It does not need to relate to today's agenda, but can relate to any agenda item. And with that introduction, somebody could bring Tony into their meeting so that, because her hand is up. Lynn, would you stop sharing your screen, please? And Lynn, I saw the type title, when you get a chance to it should say revised draft. So we're responding to, just so that this is actually the revision. Thanks. So Tony, hi. Hi, thank you. Good afternoon, Tony Cunningham, Owen Drive. I'm calling about the library project. I know you already voted to recommend that the town council approve it. But since you took that vote, it's come to my attention that there was a document in the packet of the building committee from it's dated November 20th. It was in their meeting on November 27th. And it has a line. I don't quite know what it means, but I'd love if the Finance Committee could explain it since that's under your purview to understand the finances. So it's got the 3.3 million construction and owners project contingency, but it appears to have a deduction from that. And it's called additional need. It's 2,864,800 dollars. And then it has a bottom line total contingency $446,000. And then there seems to be a line above fees and expenses of the same amount. So I don't know what it means, but I would love it if the Finance Committee could explain it. Does this mean there is no contingency left in the project or is this contingency still there? What is the additional need line, the 2.9 million dollars? Just trying to understand the financial risk of this project. Thank you. Thank you, Tommy. We can take up the library project again under other business not anticipated. Let me just mention that we are in the process of getting a response to that question working with our building commissioner, whatever Bob parent's name is. Is that the building? It's good, that's Rob Bora. Special Projects Manager. I mean Bob parent. Yes, special projects, coordinators that it? I believe so. Okay. And it will be in the responses to the questions that we're still working on. Thank you. So I guess as a Finance Committee, at this point, since we don't anticipate another meeting for the council, we just recommend that there be an explanation for the council meeting. That is correct. Okay. So I don't think there's anything else to be said on the top. So is there any other requests for public comment? Seeing none, then give back to the guidelines. Do we need a motion to submit the amended or can we just do it by agreement? I'm fine with not doing a motion, but if somebody wants to make a motion, we can. I suggest you make a motion to recommend the budget guidelines. Okay, then we need, then I will make a motion that we submit a second, a new draft of the budget guidelines in accordance with the discussion and changes made at today's Finance Committee meeting. Can I change submit to recommend adoption of the revised draft? Okay, the Finance Committee recommends adoption of the revised draft from the Finance Committee meeting of December 11, 2023. You got, is that the motion now? I'm going to change 11 to 12. Yeah, because today's the 12th. Got it, thank you. Anything else? Do we need a second though? I second. Okay, so we have a motion that's made a second. I need a discussion on the motion. Hearing no discussion on the motion, I will go through the committee as President Anna. Hi. Lynn, Bob. Or? I believe that Matt has not joined us, so he is marked as absent for this vote. Bernie, we know he's absent for this. Kathy? Yes. And I'm a yes. Alicia? Abstain. So we have four yeses, one abstain support from one resident member, two resident members absent, and the motion carries. So thank you. I just want to, I want to say thanks to Andy and Kathy for the heavy lifting on pulling this draft together. Pretty awesome. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Kathy, you've been giving, while I was doing my piece this morning, which you've just dealt with, Kathy was giving a few minutes thought to the question of the transfer memo. And Andy, I like the way you summarized that a few minutes because right after we, we talked a half hour before the meeting and then I got two phone calls. So it's a few minutes. So we need to do a carryover item memo and there's a format. And I'm just wondering whether we can ask how, Holly could leave if she would like to leave for this discussion. But we need to a formal carryover memo. And I've looked at the way the other groups have done it. And I can show you an outline of what it will contain. But our four items, as Andy has said before and several of our reports is the HRA financial options discussion. We did do a report on it. And we will, in the carryover memo, we'll say the date it was referred to us when we discussed it, a little bit about the discussion and we're holding it over to 2024, pending decisions on the committee structure and answers to some questions from KP law on a variety of issues. So that's, I can show my screen but this is in pure outline form. The other item is street lights. It was referred to finance, but we never discussed it because it was then substantially amended. And so we postponed the discussion. And now it's been referred out to the town manager to come back with a recommendation. So it's a carryover to 2024, pending hearing back from the town manager. The rental, the next one is the rental bylaw free structure. It's now back in committee. And if there are substantial changes it's likely to come back to us. So right now it's a carryover for potential additional meetings in 2024. And the last is disposal of surplus property. We got a, we showed the original document and Athena did a draft, an early draft that basically updated terms to fit our council structure but we've never had a discussion of it. So we are carrying it over to 2024. That's what my memo will say. Right now it has bullet, bullet, bullet, bullet on it. And cause I didn't have time to write it out in a formal way. Most of the other committees, what they did is the date was referred whether they had any discussion and then the carryover. So I've given you what the text will say it's in a pure outline form right now. And I don't think I'm missing anything, Andy. We talked quickly, those were the four items that we're carrying over. Andy, if I could really quickly can we just confirm that Matt can hear us and be heard? He's joined a couple of minutes ago. Hey there, I'll set. Thanks Matt. And Kathy, I just wanna check as you were going fast. You have HRA, street lights, waste hauler surplus property. Waste hauler was never referred to us. It was TSO, TSO got the referral with input from finance. I believe I can look up the motion. I can't remember ever seeing it on our list. Because I don't can double check Athena. There was an issue of getting competitive bids and stuff but I don't think it ever came to us. No, because it's never come back to the council even for a referral to finance. I'll check on the motion. She'll check on the motion. Okay, so it was to refer the proposed amendment to the bylaw to TSO in consultation with the finance committee. So it is in finance committee. It just hasn't, finance committee hasn't participated in the conversation yet because we're not really there yet. And then the other thing that I wanted to mention. So the committee's typically separate what's automatically carried over and other things that should be carried over. And your point about the rental registration fees wouldn't be in an automatic carry over because it hasn't been referred to finance committee. Finance committee has already finished their recommendation. So that's a should be carried over if it comes back to finance committee or if CRC has substantial changes to the fee structure. Okay, so it's a wording issue on how I write that one up. Yes, and then for waste hauler, I mean, it should be included in the carryover memo as an automatic carryover because it has been sent to finance committee for input to TSO, but it can be very brief. I can send you the motion and it could basically just be that because you haven't discussed it at all. I think not just not discussed it. I don't think it ever got on an agenda. No, I don't remember any of our agendas. I just was talking with co-sponsors because I'm one of the co-sponsors of that by law. And we were discussing the carryover for the TSO. But TSO never got far enough into it because there was that request for information RFI that was funded to by several haulers and the person who had been doing consulting services from State DEP was then going to summarize those and get it back to TSO. And that did not happen. And so TSO just put it in its carryover memo, which is why we don't have anything. Yeah, Kathy, I just sent you the language of the council motion to refer. Okay, so I will do it so in there. The initial motion recommended consultation with finance. I would just say the consultation didn't occur because we never received a proposed document. Okay. Or TSO hasn't reached the stage in the process where finance could be consulted about any of that yet. Yeah. So what I would suggest is as follows because I'm still working on the assumption that we don't need another meeting of this committee before the end of the term is that we ask Kathy to in consultation with any other members of the committee that she may determine is that she needs which then they will sort of consult me. But Kathy will make the decision as to the final wording and then send it out to the committee for comments. And if they don't comment, then we will submit it. And what I'll do is a big personal consult with is Athena because there's a very official kind of wording in the other memos. I would never write it quite that officially but I'm willing to conform to precedent. It's only been one term that's kind of set that precedent. So there's some leeway. So it sounds like Andy, what you're suggesting is the committee reach a consensus that Kathy's authorized to finalize the carryover memo? Yeah. And then I'll draft it today is, what is today, Tuesday. I'll try to get it back to people by Thursday for any comments. I mean, that doesn't need to be in the motion but if people are willing to free it up to me and then you'll get to see a draft of it. So do you need to take a vote on that, Andy? Everyone's changed. Yes. You think we need to take a vote on it? I don't think. Okay. Okay. So that said, we're getting to the end of our service on this particular finance committee because I'm gonna open it up to see if anybody has any final comments or requests to take any items up otherwise. I can't think of anything. We have the minutes, minutes on the agenda. Oh yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just want to see this handle. So the proposal of the minutes is actually that I take, I have been in the past reviewing minutes and then letting you know that the minutes have been reviewed but you've just been adopting them but actually we can just designate the authority to adopt and it's just to a single member and that will require a motion. Kathy? I'd be happy to move that we designate one person to review and finalize the minutes that are in our packet going back to March. And just that's my motion and that was a process we used for the first few years. So when we convene again next year, I'd like to have this be a topic right away and whether we should use that process again. But I think we have a backlog and we need to move them. My question, Andy, I've made the motion. My question is, who are we designating? I need that for the motion. Yes. I'm willing to continue to do the minutes. Feel responsible for the fact that they got bogged down. So then I move that we designate Andy to review and finalize the minutes dating back to, Athena, you have it in the packet already, but dating back to March to 23. March 28, 2023 to December 12, 2023. Okay. I'll second that. Okay, so there's been a motion that's made in second. The seconder was Anna. Yep. And I'll just so that you know, if I feel that I need help, then it gives me the ability to still ask for help from some of you to take to help me with some of the minutes. If it gets bogged down, but it's easier to do it this way, to have one person have the responsibility and be able to approve. So having said that, let me just, right, we'll go through Lynn and start with you in the vote. Yes. And thank you. Bob, Port, Matt. Support. Bernie is absent. Kathy. Yes. I will vote yes. Alicia. Yes. And Anna. I. So it is, this one is unanimous with two resident members in support and one resident member absent. And so that Matt, you missed, I'm sorry you didn't get here earlier, but understand and appreciate all you're doing. We went through the guidelines draft from last time and discussed all of the sections where there were comments made at last night's council meeting and made changes as deemed appropriate. And that was then approved as the new draft to be sent to the committee. And so when that gets put together, you'll get a copy. But there weren't major things, but there were important comments that needed to be considered. We did so. So that said, unless somebody else has something to say, I just want to include by thanking all of you because I think it's been a really good group process that we've worked together very well and I just appreciate the hard work you all put into it. I just wanted to say that given my election to the council, I will have to resign as a resident member of the committee. And there's no guarantee I'll be on the committee next time. So I hope I am, but there's no guarantee. So anyway, if for some reason I'm not, thank you for your time. If for some reason I'm not, thank you very much. I really enjoyed working with everyone and it's been a great committee. Well, Bob, and none of us are guaranteed that we'll be on the committee again. Bob, I just want to make sure that your resignation is effective January 2nd. Yes. I'll make it effective January 2nd. Okay. And so I take that back. Matt and Bernie are guaranteed that they're still in the committee. That's right. So I just want to say, Bob, I totally encourage you to say you want to be on finance. Just so everyone knows, Lynn has sometimes had to encourage people to fill all the slots and it's fabulous that you've been with us as Matt and Bernie. I mean, I've always thought the slots given opportunity to learn so much about the town and the budget that when we're elected as counselors, especially the two year terms, it's so short. And to have that depth of knowledge has been and will be critical. And Andy, you brought that to us from day one a long time ago because you'd done it before on the select board. So I think it was wise of the charter to allow us to do this. And I would like to do it in other committees as well because it's a continuity that serves the town really well. So Andy, I'd like to do the following. I'd like to ask our two less experienced counselors. I don't want to say new because you've been with us for two years, at least. Well, what else we could do to help you learn the financial ins and outs of the town and how can we get our colleagues down the road to be more engaged even if they're not on finance? Lynn, I'm assuming you're talking to me. I've only been on finance for one year, actually. So for me, this is definitely a steep learning curve. I think what would be helpful, there was a lot that was covered in finance that isn't necessarily, it's part of the larger picture, but we got the audit reports, we got all of the updates on OPEB. Those are all elements that aren't, I don't mean to say they're not exciting, but they're not necessarily as flashy as some of the other things that we do or as blatantly impactful to most residents as other things we do. I think it would be helpful to think about the responsibilities of each committee beyond the charge. So things that you know the committees will do every year and an annual workflow that committees do, I mean, this is, I think it's especially true for finance because finance has an annual workflow that the other committees don't necessarily have, but or with the regularity that I'd say other committees don't necessarily have, but generally speaking, I think an annual workflow for finance would be helpful as well as an overview of things you're going to be discussing that maybe aren't as front of mind for some of us as we run for counsel. I actually did that, I think after the first year on the count of the council and in sort of the replacement for a carryover memo saying we had nothing to carry over, but it'd be good for people to know what the committee did. And I think that that can be found again. And it really did do exactly what you said. And we do have the budget calendar as well. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, but I understand what you're saying, but there is at least that in terms of what happens to the budget. I think it's a great idea to also post for the full council on that, there's certain things that are going through finance because we got the accountants report where we subcommittee when we first started and then we folded in that this is coming to us. And it's not going to, for the most part, the details of it aren't going to come to the full council but this I'll make and it's going to come in this cycle. Right, yep. I think that because people might want to, your eyes may glaives over, but OPEB, all of the funding decisions for that were set just before the council was elected on setting it up. And we continued those policies about funding, but most people can't even easily define what it is. I mean, yeah, Kathy, you say eyes glaives over. I had to turn my camera off because I put my hands on my face and I was staring about two inches from my computer trying to make sure I was following it all. There's a lot of information. And I think it would be helpful to define and clarify. And I'm sure that that's somewhere I could find, but I think when folks are assigned to finance that could be something that's helpful for them to receive or as people are deciding committees. I'm not sure, but yeah. I want to come back to Anna in a moment, but Alicia, how about you? How about you? Yeah, I actually, I really agree with Anna and I almost think that like, I also experienced a very steep learning curve even being on the finance committee for two years. And I think that like, even if when members are appointed, there's like, if you want, there's this info packet and it can include some of the things like what Anna was describing. And I do think that that might be helpful in terms of setting people up who have not been on finance before. And I'm not sure this is something that can always happen, but it was also really helpful for me to serve with people who have been on the finance before. So not that I didn't appreciate every single one of you because I did, but like Andy and Kathy have been really, really great resources and like they are always willing to answer questions as well as Athena, of course. But I think like being able to have people who are very experienced and who know what has happened in the past because I realized that in terms of finance, it's really important like, what has already happened even before I was really paying attention to what has happened in like town, fiscal precedents or just our regular practices. And I think it took me a while to sort of catch on to some of the things that aren't necessarily written rules, but just the way that we do things. So it has been really helpful to have the senior members of the committee to sort of lean on and to learn those things from them. You know, I'm sorry, go ahead. Alicia, one of the things that strikes me about that is there's also a bunch of things the council inherited. Kathy just mentioned one of them, which was the OPEB commitment. But the first council inherited some things that even the second council may not realize. We, it wasn't, we didn't start this, okay? I'll give you an example. The North Common was not something this council started. It was something we inherited. The 132 North Hampton Road was something this council inherited, we didn't start it. And that's even going back five years. So that's kind of an interesting reminder for all of us that keeping track of kind of things that came along in the continuation of one form of government to the next is important. But Anna, you brought up something a couple of times and two things that I think have been very interesting to listen to. One is how can we make the budget review and the budget process more meaningful where we feel like we have impact and all we're doing instead of all we're doing is reviewing a cooked document. Okay, that was one of the things you've really mentioned several times. And the other thing you've mentioned is the budget process being out of sync with town manager goals, town manager financial guidelines and town manager evaluation. And I believe we have already said to GOL we want you to look at that in the coming year. But I don't know that we've ever gotten back to the discussion of what can we do in the budget process that makes it feel like all of those meetings we spend in May are as impactful as possible. I mean, I'll hear Kathy's response, but I do think I've shared my thoughts on it, which is to not put those meetings in May. I don't mind reviewing a baked document. Paul is very good at presenting a balanced budget and I don't necessarily think he should present something else other than a balanced budget. That's what we ask of him in our financial guidelines. For me, it's the fact that Paul is very good at sending us a balanced budget because he listens to his staff and creates a budget in accordance to that. But for us to hear where staff are at while getting a balanced budget doesn't see those, what are we trying to get from those meetings, right? And so for a lot of us, it's to understand the priority areas for them to talk through where their needs are. We can read a budget document and I think we all really appreciate hearing from staff, but for us to think through, I mean, I'm thinking about the financial guidelines we just created. For us to say we wanna prioritize grants and climate action, is that something? And I know we didn't say that explicitly, but is that something that the sustainability director is looking for at this time? I think that for me, it's not creating, it's not about adding work to staff or shifting any work away from Paul. And I think this is a needle that we need to thread really carefully because I'm not, in no way am I trying to step on Paul's toes or in his work. But I think for me, hearing from staff in October and November would be more beneficial for us as we go into creating the goals and the budget guidelines. And I don't know, I mean, I think that's what's, or maybe it's that we don't necessarily, I don't know. I'll think on it a bit more, but for me, the purpose and the workload in May doesn't align with what we get out of it in terms of what we're producing with the, or what we decide on with the budget. It's incredibly beneficial to hear from staff, but I don't know that it needs to relate to the budget if we're not going to change anything about it because we get a ballot document. I'm still working this through in my head and I'm happy to brainstorm it more, but those are my initial thoughts. Yeah, I see. Yeah, I'm actually on, I'm not gonna speak to that at all. I think it is, it's a challenge. And one of the issues on this raising is do we find our own time well spent meeting twice a week, every week in May, when the budget is sort of set. So it's looking for, is there a way of adding value to that process? One of the things I, we haven't done very much, but we've been shown when he was pulling together this big budget book was asking us if we had any suggestions about the way the information is presented. And we didn't, did and did not necessarily respond to it, but when we just did these guidelines, the question of what share of our budget is supported by property tax versus receipts versus the state came up. And I went back and thank goodness that there's this thing out there called the internet that I could put town of Amherst budget 2003 because there was no way I could find it on our own website. But when I went back to two decades ago, there was regularly a table that gave you the answer and showed you state revenues in each of the other pieces. And we don't capture that anymore. You can do it, you can do the math each time but it was literally a diagram that made me really easy. So I'm gonna pull it together since I found, I want to go back to, we moved here in 1982 and I probably can't go back as far as 1982 but I was trying to make a continuous series to show people that there's been a shift, a very dramatic shift over time on the overall where money is coming for municipalities that this state has been cutting back and the federal government, I won't go federal but I think it's just a useful thing. So it's something I would like to see in the budget document on just a historical and Mandy asked on this one, we did 23, 2003 and 2015 because it was already in the document and 2024 but she said, what about 2023? And we can do the math but just thinking of putting that because it's useful for every counselor to understand that and it's useful for the public to understand that. That we're, I think of it, we're in this box that's a very tight box and some of it could be controlled but it's outside the council, whether that's grants. So it's something I'll work on Andy just pulling it together and then maybe we can make it as a recommendation that the staff just keep updating it every year. So we get, you don't have to do a Google search to find earlier budgets. The town was really different in 1984 and 85 in terms of the flow of funds. Amherstandmay.gov slash budget. Yeah. For the current budget. I can find back 10 years very easily. It was going back 20 and 30 that was typical. Yeah. I mean, you do have to decide how far to go back in history because Bernie made the point at the last meeting which I was commented on a little bit and that is that the passage of proposition two and a half in 1980 really changed how towns finance and state aid was not really a factor that before 1980 it has been since. So history, the history that's useful is what's happened since two and a half that don't try and go back further. Yeah. In any case, as I said, I'll just do it because I found it really interesting. Yeah. And just so there's no surprise later. I mean, Kathy, it would be great if you sent something about what you're recommending what your idea so that I could share that with Holly and Jen when we put together the budget book this year, but we're in the midst of looking for a new finance director and the budget book for this year is probably gonna look a lot like the one the formatting and everything is gonna look like what we did last year. We're not doing any big news. My biggest thing on the budget book has always been an index. So when if I wanted to know what page the police were on, I didn't have to put a little sticky tab somewhere in if I've actually, you know, so it's some of it's pretty simple. I don't think it needs a lot of work now. You say it's simple, but it's like multiple spreadsheets interacting with each other that we pull into a document. But I appreciate that suggestion. And once we get into it, I can see if we can include an index or if we could color code departments or something like that. Yeah, I think that is what Kathy was saying. I have the same experience. If I want to look up a particular department, I have to remember which area it falls under and then look through all of the pages in community services in order to find public health. There's no way to just get there instantly. So in any case, I hear that. I don't, I'm sorry. In word, you can actually code your headers into a table of contents. Right. Yeah, one at one level. I'm not sure what software this is structured in. And we're talking about it from the user side. So we'll do our best. Y'all need to do. If I could go back really quickly. I think, Andy, it might be helpful. And I don't know that now is the moment because what I'm pitching isn't something that I would pitch for next year given the staffing shifts in finance in terms of changing up how we do this particular process. But it is something that I would, I'd want to consider maybe for two years out, giving us a little bit of time to shift because this would be a huge change if it did move forward. I think it sounds like what might be helpful. I think I feel like it's possible. I'm not assigning you a reaction, but it's possible that there might be some feelings about changing up the timeline. And so it might be helpful at some point for either if Athena's willing to sit down with me and talk about what this could look like if it makes any sense. Because I think I only know my own perspective on it. And this, because it's really staff heavy, I wouldn't want to actually pitch a change without engaging with staff on it. So I think, Andy, if it's possible, or Lynn, I guess you asked the question, this isn't something that I'm proposing. We suggest as a change for the coming year. It's something that I'd like to continue to keep on the burner. And I can work with Athena or Paul or whoever would be appropriate to say, it doesn't need to look the way I'm suggesting, but if this is the goal, how do we, how might we get there better? I think that's a understandable and reasonable request because it's, we're not going to be able to do it this year, but certainly shouldn't be talking about it two years from now in the same way. That's the idea. Yeah, I do have a couple of concerns about your suggestion, but I think, and you and I can sit down and talk about that. I would love to hear your thoughts, but I think it might be a worthwhile discussion for the Council, for the Finance Committee to have early in the year about how, you know, the goal of the meetings with the departments and how best to use the time with the departments. I think in the past we've had a set of questions for each department that we expect they'll come back with answers, but just having a conversation about, you know, the best use of the committee's time and what you're hoping to achieve with the time that we have with staff, I think is really worthwhile. So if we could do that early on, so that when we sit down, that would be great. Yeah, all right, sounds good. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry to co-opt your meeting, Andy, but- No, that's all right. I want to end this. Thank you. Since I also wanted to recognize this is likely our last meeting, which we will confirm in just a second. I did want to have an open time for discussion and general questions and thoughts. So this is helpful. Thank you. Anything else that anybody wants to raise today? No, but we want to- Thank you for all your work, Andy. Anything people want to raise for the remainder of the year? Happy holidays. Yeah, so hearing that- Enjoy. We have a plan for the minutes. We have a plan for the carryover memo. We have no anticipated business, so I think that when we adjourn, we can assume that the likelihood is pretty close to zero that there'll be a notice that we need to schedule another meeting of this committee during this term. So with that, I thank you all in adjourn. Thank you. Take care, everybody. Thanks, everybody.