 Frustrated by the unseizing reign of terror and banditry in his state, the Katzine State Governor Aminu Belou Kat Masari has officially approved a resort to self-help and has asked his people to acquire weapons in defense against terror and banditry. Meanwhile, in June, Sani Umar, a resident of Bastari Local Government area of Katzine States, spoke on how Nigeria's porous borders with Niger fuel attacks in the Northwest. Well, joining us to discuss this is retired Air Vice-Machal Femi Wadibor. Thank you very much, sir, for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm just going to go straight off the cuff. A governor is asking his people, out of frustration, obviously, to resort to self-help. In a country where we have the army, we have the Air Force, we have the Navy, we have police, we have, I mean, we have so many security outfits and the governor of that state is saying, well, because we're unable to deal with this situation or our security agents are not able to deal with this situation, maybe we all have to arm ourselves. And the last time I checked, it is illegal to have own a weapon or a gun in Nigeria. If it's not licensed, then it's hardly easy for you to do that. So please help me out. What exactly do you think is going on here? I think we've, unfortunately, some of our leaders have shot themselves in the foot. And there seems to be a lack of coordination in the utterances that are coming from major state actors. So you'll find one governor saying something, the police is saying another thing. We see in some states where the police is working hard to mop up what they call illegal weapons. Even regional security organizations that have been set up are yet to be officially allowed to carry weapons. And then nobody is officially selling weapons. I don't know anywhere where you can go outright and just buy your own weapons. So I know the situation is really getting out of hand. And that options from Dr. Masari, who we know about a year or so ago was visibly seen to be romancing with the bandits or insurgents, is another of these complicated cries and calls that we're getting from our leaders. They need to come together and discuss these issues and have a clear directive from the federal government which will affect the police and then let us know exactly what the people can do. You cannot call people to take off arms and defend themselves and then have the police come next week and start arresting people because they have illegal weapons. I'm really curious because this is the president's state obviously. This is his backyard, literally. But like you have said, the governors including governors Zulum, all of the governors in the states that are facing this insecurity, we get mixed messages from them. But the governors are number one chief security officers in their states, whether it's on paper or not. They are. Why do they have to go to the federal government for a directive? They know what is happening. It's he who wears the shoe that understands how bad the pinch is or the pain is. Why result to the federal government? Does this also mean that there's lack of leadership in these states that they have to go to the federal government who may not have the slightest idea of what they're going through? Well, the idea that a governor is a chief security officer is something that can sometimes be laughable because they have no control over the commissioner or police or the other security assets that are in their state. They still have to lay eggs. For instance, if a governor needs like the brigade commander or some other person to come out and help out, the law still says that the first point of refusal is a commissioner of police who has to say that I am overwhelmed. I need the military. And when the governor, even though they have a state security council, when the governor calls the military, the military has to go through the back door and get a clearance from his service chief and so on, even though there is another way that the governor can get to Mr. President and Mr. President can direct the service chief to go ahead and give the go ahead, you understand? So yes, there are what on paper may look cumbersome, but with a finely walking mechanism, it can be just a phone call away. The only problem we're seeing here is that when a governor gives this kind of directive, we need to be sure of the response that is coming from the superior to either the commissioner of police or the security agencies that are in that state. And I think the governor should stop just going to the press and making statements like this. They should get the very clear mandate from the presidency. He should go to, I mean, I don't know, are they trying to give us an impression that they cannot be Mr. President? Because that's the first point of call. And then the next thing should be federal government giving a new directive on the use of personal arms and how the registrations and the licences can be done. And then at the various state levels, we will begin to have people who have license to sell weapons and they will import them. Yes, you can limit the caliber of the weapons that they're getting. I mean, I get where this conversation is going, but I'm trying to understand why we have to resort to now introducing weapons into our system because we really already, we have so many weapons that are illegal that are in the system that we can't even account for. And now we want to go to a legal way of really, does this not make our security outfits or our security agencies look bad? Does this not also send a message to the so-called bandits that we are extremely overwhelmed and we're running out of ideas? I ask this because, I ask this because early this year we remember a service chief who told, it wasn't a service chief, it was the minister of, I think, the minister of defence that said that we should defend ourselves. So if this is coming from people who are in the federal government, when we say the federal government, it's not just Mr President, why are we still having to want to speak to the president if someone in his cabinet is also saying we should go resort to his self-help? Well, resort to self-help doesn't mean that everybody should drop part of the streets and just shouldn't away. But let's, you see, it still beats my imagination where a community will continue to be ravaged and they'll go to sleep at night and waiting for some miracles to happen. Every group of bodymen, there is what you call neighbourhood watch, there are vigilantes, they're organised private security networks. Working with these people will gather intelligence. You see, one of the schools children, a set of school children that were kidnapped in Cassina, when the whole thing was sorted out, it was revealed that these individuals had to go to markets to buy foodstuff for the children because there were about 300 or so. And so definitely within the market it was noticed that somebody was buying large quantities of certain things. And from their intelligence status pulled up and that's how the whole thing got unraveled. And so the thing is that our people in the villages, in the rural communities, they are not doing what they should do. You cannot have even a hundred men in the bush and they'll be surviving without foodstuff, some basic amenities. They're very little, they can get up the land. In fact, from history, I know that there used to be some women in some communities that used to cook for these bandits and terrorists who are staying out in the forest. And so it's a question of intelligence gathering, in the question of everybody knowing that they are part of the security network and they can pass information and build in a system where it's done. But the other one I'm talking about is that in communities, they must also build up their own security network where there is a group of people who are staying awake at night, even in shifts, so that you don't keep having this situation where they seem to come out of nowhere and then people are sleeping and they start vandalizing them, burning houses and so on. We must wake up and this is part of what the governors are saying when they say, defend yourself, organize yourself and prepare to face these individuals who are coming. Let's talk about the porousness of our borders because there is a man who gave his story about how he and his community was attacked in the same Katsina state. And he also pointed out that these porous borders between Katsina, that's Katsina and Niger, is what feels more of this banditry because that's where these people are coming in and out of. And it really takes my mind to the fact that there are also people who are surrendering to the army and saying that they are repentant Boko Haram members. How do we know that these people are not the guys who are coming in through Niger and claiming to be Nigerians? I have asked this question over and over again, what is the modus operandi? How are these people being debriefed? Because if we are getting these many people surrender and we're still unable to deal with those who are in the forest, then maybe we're missing something. Are we? Oh, yes, we are missing something. The idea of them being debriefed and so on, it is too fast. Under normal circumstances, they should be held in some safe area, reasonably distant from the crisis area. I noticed, for instance, Dr. Zulun in a quagmire now trying to figure out how to handle the issue of the repentant Boko Haram people. It's not supposed to be the government's problem. It's a federal issue and it's a national security issue. And so it's not for him to be trying to figure out how to settle them. It is for a government agency to take responsibility for these people, take them somewhere. Because like you said, there could be people there who are coming undercover to lie low and to begin to work as double agents or spies. And when the time is right, they just join their colleagues who are coming to pray at work in our lands. As far as the borders are concerned, our borders will continue to be porous because of one simple thing. When the white man sat down in Berlin in the 1800s and decided to share Africa and just draw borders, more or less straight lines or whatever they did, they failed to take cognizance of ethnic groups. So you have ethnic groups that are on both sides of the border. If you go to certain parts of the north, and I know a particular town in other vast states, where the border runs right through the middle of the village. So one side of the village is Nigeria, the other side of the village is Nigeria, and so on. And that's what happens in most of our border areas. So these are relations. These are people. I mean, even when you talk about five kilometers apart, there are the same people who interact together, the farmers together, and so on. So when you even talk about bandits or terrorists, cross-border terrorists, I tell you, when you get some of them, all you can see is that because they're in a from a French-speaking country, they don't speak English, but they probably speak the native language, and they have the same facial features as our own people. So how do you easily differentiate A from B? The only thing that is that when you see those terrorists that are from Niger and Chad, particularly the ones from Chad, they're very hostile, you know, because they've been living in, you know, what you call, in a very hostile environment for a long time. And then there's something, you see, when you talk of Nigerian troops dealing with people in cross-border areas, it is difficult for you to deal roughly with people who look like you and know. I've told people before, when Nigerian troops go to a peacekeeping missions far away from Nigeria, they're very effective, because it is clear that you can differentiate one group from another. But when you are in the Nigerian border area and you are having to deal with people who look like your people and who speak native languages and so on and so forth, it can be, in fact, some of them look like people who are in uniform with you. And that's where we even have some problems that some of our troops may be having sympathies, because when you see somebody who speaks your language, it's difficult to now treat them like enemy. But is your training not to deal with the enemy, no matter what he looks like, especially if that enemy that looks like you is killing your people? Should that even be, should we be even having that conversation? Well, you see, what I'm talking about enemy here. I mean, I've never been to war, so I probably don't understand, but please help me understand. When he's killing your people, or when you catch him red-handed, he's the enemy. When he takes off his clothes, like all those people who are in Bernouste now and say, we are sorry and all, look at those pictures, do you see any enemy there? That is the problem that we're having to deal with. And there's a lot of psychological problems, a lot of issues. So like I said, the simplest thing is to take them on their word, but remove them from that crisis area and then do what we call proper profiling. It is after you've done the profiling, you can determine who is true and stuff like that. But definitely there's no, I mean, if you have a lion and you pick a baby lion or a tiger from the forest and bring it up with your dogs at home, it's going to be friendly up to when it is big and so on. Because you are given cooked food and you are treating it in a certain way. But honestly, the day that lion or tiger tastes blood, you will suddenly see a change in them. And that is true to its human beings. As people who have been into Liberia, all these boy soldiers and everything, it's difficult to rehabilitate these people because they've been through some psychological mess up that they can become for a few days, but just in a bus or in motor park, a little fracas break up and then you will see a tiger coming out of a human being. So does this mean that we're wasting taxpayers' money trying to rehabilitate these people? Because I always point to the fact that we did have some form of amnesty thing for the former set to Boko Haram members who said that they had surrendered. But we also heard from the army that these same people took back information, they became informants and went back to join Boko Haram. So this also goes to Beatrice, what she was saying. So should we not waste our money in trying to rehabilitate these people? Should they be facing judgment? Because we also have to take into concentration that fellow soldiers have been killed. People who are living in those communities have been victims of these same people. The girl that returned with her two children and one of the men who said he's her husband has obviously been, she has been subjected to abuse and God knows what happened to her and now she's been made a wife and a mother. Shouldn't these people be facing justice or rather facing the law so that the people who have been victims can get justice, including our soldiers who have fallen in battle? You see we have family members, wives, children, parents whose children have died in this crisis. We have communities that have lost their people and not just being shot but who have been dealt with badly. I remember one of our Air Force pilots was beheaded and they carried his head in one of the videos. How do you expect these people to feel when you say that you're forgiven? Nobody has a right to forgive people who have done something like this. We talk about amnesty, we talk about you know even you hear about backslides matter and people are still talking about you know rights, things being made right. Psychologically when a people are destroyed or damaged it takes years to get them back and that's why I'm saying that what Governor Zulum is doing it should not be his business. It's an Nigerian business because some of the soldiers who died are from different parts of Nigeria. So it's not just about talking to communities there whether we really take them back and I don't know if anybody's thinking about it but the psychological damage that is going to do to the troops that are out there that are still fighting is something that we cannot afford you know to let happen to us going forward. So there is a problem that there are ways just as we are able to take you know refugees and put them in all these camps we must take these individuals and remove them from that area and then profile them to even see how much involvement they had. That's why the International Criminal Court is there. We see what's been happening even to super presidents in Africa. Charles Taylor went through a long period of you know trial and so on because those things cannot just be reached in a way. We see when they say when justice is being done it must be seen to be done. It must be seen to be done fairly to all concerned. Yes you are sorry but what does that do for me and then you're talking about you know you know you are trying to rehabilitate them. Have you rehabilitated the families that have been messed up? Have you paid up the compensations to them? If this thing has to go both ways for us to get out of this mess we know clearly that Nigerian troops the soldiers that I worked with and those that I trained given the right tools it's not just buying new aircrafts and so on but it also includes giving them the powers to do. A commander in the field is responsible for the actions to take. When orders come from behind to change the game and it's very confusing okay and so at the end of the day we must understand what we're doing and we must do it and be seen to be doing it fairly everywhere from left to right and so on. If you remember in the first maybe major part of the Boko Haram crisis the North West was peaceful. The North West was not affected. When they started having problems it was cattle wrestling but it quickly turned into something else. Now we are seeing kidnapping and people think it's a simple thing but that's part of why do I deny the matter has been messed up because like I think it is a former senator who sent it for our lives. Sani who said every time you capture these terrorists and so on they don't look like people who have handled the millionaire in their lives. Yes they collected 300-400 million naira. Where does it go? It goes to a bureau to change and so some people powerful players central advance say they'll name these people from time to time some top government officials say they'll name the people who are behind all these things. Why are we keeping fire? Why are we handling it? The truth I'll tell you. You just played to my last question because I was going to ask that have we maybe over politicized this issue and that's why the insurgency is seemingly growing in its lips and bounds and now has different names unknown government bandits and even Boko Haram that has been there for over a decade. Absolutely you see 2023 don't any politician who says 2023 is not yet an issue he should go and tell it to his grandmother. People are stashing money because the only politics that our politicians understand is temporary use of money to confuse the masses get the votes and get back on track. So if you have a let's say even a hundred thousand dollars now and you keep it at the rate they are messing the dollar up you're going to get a lot of naira to used to play around when the time comes. So certain things are going wrong and we need to understand it and we need to get to bottom of these things and so politics has no business in war they tell you that when politicians go to war it's young innocent men and innocent civilians that die and at the end of the day you can see what's happening in certain parts of the world right now. So people also have to begin to rise up and complain and protest and not just wait for their politicians to do the right thing when the pressure is on politicians will wake up but when people continue to sit down and wait quietly it's not going to change and the day our soldiers decide to just lose confidence in themselves it will be very sad for this country. Well we pray that it doesn't get to that point the retired Air Vice-Machal Femi Gladibault thank you very much for speaking with us we appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right well that says on plus politics as we end on that very sour note I'll see you tomorrow when we talk more on Nigeria's politics I am Mary Annickle and have a good evening.