 COVID should have made us realize the role that diet played in people's susceptibility to the disease. It's kind of most of all the discussions globally have talked about the underlying conditions that make people, I think, susceptible and make the disease prove more lethal. And they're often, they stop because they don't want to say it's diabetes, it's hypertension, it's obesity, all the things that are associated with chronic diet related illnesses. This should be a powerful moment to talk about, at least in the states, the standard American diet, how we grow our food, how much we pay the people who pick our food and the people who serve our food. This should open the doorway to huge discussions about senior meals, prison meals, military, seniors. Yet, tragically, I think sometimes the nonprofit sector that I love in a door just kind of wants it to stay the same as it ever was. Robert Egger is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Robert is the founder of the DC Central Kitchen, the campus kitchen project and the LA kitchen, which have collectively produced over 40 million meals and helped over 2,000 individuals attain jobs. In Washington, he was a founding chair of the Mayor's Commission on Nutrition and Street Sense, Washington's homeless newspaper. In addition, he is a founding board member of the World Central Kitchen with Jose Andreas. Robert was also the co-convener of the first nonprofit Congress and founder of the CF Board PAC, which worked to help elect people who ran nonprofits. He also wrote an award-winning book, Begging for Change. Robert is an international speaker and he has received dozens of awards over the years for his ideas and work, including being named a Point of Light and Oprah Angel Humanitarian of the Year awards by the James Beard Foundation. And a Washington, a Washingtonian of the year, he was also only direct service provider to appear on the nonprofit times list, the most powerful and influential nonprofit leaders from 2006 to 2009. And last but not least, Robert is a 15 gallon blood donor with American Red Cross. He has a long list. He's been doing this 30 plus years and he's been around the block and has really, I could go on for days with the accolades and the humanitarian service he's done and made into his life's work. I'm so glad to have you here, Robert. Thank you for being on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you, Mark. Man, it's a pleasure, a real pleasure. Brother, it's good to have you and I'm glad we can have this discussion and take the time just to talk and remove some bias and get into sensemaking. As I mentioned, we could probably go on days just about all the things you've done over these 30 years and what you've accomplished and really the lives that you've touched, not just the meals you've delivered, the jobs you've provided, the people you've helped make a transition out of some pretty different situations into better. And how you kind of just fell into this. Originally wanted to be kind of a nightclub owner and just kind of real, really be a superstar in a different sense. And you came upon this opportunity that's really changed your entire life and what I love the most is you you've really put your own personal feelings of history, and just a lot of fun fucking shit up so to say, which is also one of your websites just just having a lot of fun, making some mistakes but also have a lot of learning lessons and it's really worked out well for you for a long time. And all that being said, we've just experienced the most brutal crazy time ever, not just the pandemic and Black Lives Matters and the inauguration and the Brexits and any other craziness going on around the world. And that's happened. And how have you weathered all that how have you been with all that experience did you have some resilience to, to make it through there or did you see some things that that were some new learning lessons over this time. Well, brother, you know, you know, a before we get started, I really appreciate respect being referred to as a humanitarian but I'm, I think that word I appreciate it and I understand it but I'm more of a nutritional activist. I'm a real big believer in kind of liberation theology, you know, I've said many times but you know charity, the field I love but it's so often based on the redemption of the giver, and I'm a big believer in the liberation of the receiver so a lot of the work I do is much more bold and challenging than, you know, kind of the good deeds oftentimes associated the essential good deeds associated with humanitarian I'm, I'm more of a squeaky wheel, you know, a bad mofo who demands and challenges the status quo of this system. So, yeah, man, the, I think COVID, I'll give you a good example. COVID should have made us realize the role that diet played in people susceptibility to the disease. I mean, it's kind of most of most of all the discussions globally have talked about the underlying conditions that make people, I think susceptible and improve and make the disease prove more lethal. And they're often they they stop because they don't want to say it's diabetes, it's hypertension it's obesity, all the things that are associated with chronic diet related illnesses, this should be a powerful moment to talk about, at least in the states the standard how we grow our food, who how much we pay the people who pick our food and the people who serve our food. This should open the doorway to huge discussions about senior meals prison meals, military seniors. Yet, tragically, I think sometimes the nonprofit sector that I love and adore just kind of wants it to stay the same as it ever was. And to a certain extent, to be quite blunt to almost, you know, kind of la la la la la, not pretend that we don't have a role to play. In the decades of kind of pushing process junk food down the system on to the poor, poisoning the poor in the name of feeding them. This should be a moment where we stop and say you know what, man, never again, never again, here's the new nutritional bar that we will never cross we will never poison a person in the name of feeding them. And more importantly will amp up our advocacy so that the charity isn't the baseline for how we serve our fellow citizens. That's one of many conversations. I love that that is so vital and important and I knew that you you would mention that that's exactly where we need to go it's not just about the charity aspect and feeding people it's about transforming their lives with healthy food with different options that eventually they can get into a different situation also have the the resilience or the the health to fight some of these crazy things that are coming down the pipeline, whether they're their diseases or or pandemics or actually just the the simple societal things that we've been dealing with political as well. We'll kind of get into that a little bit later because there there's an aspect that I think that some realities I'd like you to kind of give our listeners about how they look at what politicians do and what you've done in the past because I think some of them don't understand but you guys get pretty damn political and you you don't put up with a lot in the type of people that that are in coming in to help volunteer or work or to to to give you the food and what you do have some pretty rough backgrounds and they also generate a certain amount of the economy and so we're going to touch on that but I wanted to let my viewers first and foremost know we met through a mute mutual friend Diane hats of mine does change food wonderful person and I just barely couple days ago on that was on Saturday had Dr Katie Martin who is the head of the Connecticut food bank and and does a lot around food bank she just wrote a book called reinventing food banks and pantries is it's very rare and in that air industry to find first of all good books that kind of talk about similar things which you've talked about in the past and I believe there's even a little mention in her book about yeah I don't know if you you've you heard about that but it's really interesting because it's it's hard to find materials like this around food banks and pantries but I wanted I was hoping that you could give us the distinguishment or the help help us help my listeners understand what's the difference between a central kitchen. LA kitchen DC kitchen world central kitchen and food banks and food pantries and and what roles do they play in how how does that whole process work that would be I mean we need to first get up to the same speed of what you're talking about so we can understand where and what they are so if you could help us there that'd be great. Sure. Now you know what's interesting is you know I've carried a little bit of a Jones for lack of a better word about food banks for a long time because again I've been frustrated along with other people. I have tried you know with love to offer ideas about the kind of metrics for example the entire systems historically been based on two incredibly in my opinion flawed metrics of success. And those metrics have influenced generations of donors politicians to believe that pounds move the amount of weight of food you move out, or the number of agencies you serve, more being good are benchmarks for impact, and they're not. In fact, they can oftentimes seduce people into moving whatever they can get their hands on to account for more weight because they conditioned donors to believe that only if you move more than you did last year, are you good, you know you have to keep moving more and more and more. And that led I think a one generation of food bankers to as you know kind of get bigger and bigger and bigger versus really stop. And again think about nutrition think about you know, political activism, and more importantly the idea of, and there is a dignity factor but you know kind of the whole system because you have those food banks and before I go from there I really want to your previous guests because I have to remember constantly, there is a new generation of food bankers coming up who are just as interested as I am in change. And I think sometimes those of us who get older can constantly frame and oftentimes carry junk on their back, because of a past slight, or a sense of those people don't care anymore. And you can lose yourself. In fact, you know years ago, I got this little tattoo on my finger here of a heart, because it can be tempting sometimes to do this too much you know and I have that to constantly remind myself, you know don't be a jerk dude don't act superior don't think you're smarter. Understand that it's a common human trait to get lost in your system to get lost in your program, and to defend it, and all that so, again, mad props for, and I'm looking forward to reading that book because Yeah, it just barely came out Dr. Katie Martin and the great thing about it is is her mom just so you know a little bit more her model is really that one of turning food banks into almost like a food bank a whole foods food bank type of a thing, a market where they go out and pick out their own food that there's a lot of healthy and nutritious food in there, and that it's not just handing out food. It's actually support services to transition them into others you know how, how can they get on to snap how wick or how can they get on to a different system that helps them kind of get get out of the food pantry food bank area to need those services at all. And, and she also mentioned you know in this cold that it's really had a huge impact on how much food people need people in their life would have thought they needed food. And now they lost their job they, the situation was such that all of a sudden they found themselves being in that position and what the terminology or the lexicon of words that we use in that area can just be enough for someone to go or not go or to say oh I'm not somebody who needs that but they actually are. But you know, in my personal career, I've tried to use this personal kind of metric of 4951 49% of my time 49% of my time is always dedicated to whatever business I'm running DC kitchen LA kitchen whatever, trying to make it better faster more efficient more effective but it that 49% has to be in service to a bigger cause of 51% that you know I have to be serving a bigger movement than just my own business. Now if you reverse that and it becomes 51% my business 49% cause I think you're lost because you'll always be feeding your little beast, and I'm not interested in that you know what am I part of what's what are we trying to do collectively. So I'll give you an example while it is exciting to hear food banks and pantries talk about you know kind of the whole foods dignity side $15 minimum wage you know what are we doing on behalf of making people be able to buy their own food. You know I'm always fascinated by the idea of the co op model I mean we historically think poor people need free things versus saying no are you kidding McDonald's Walmart all these companies make tons of money off poor people. Now we offer a revenue model in which they can buy stuff and that raises the responsibility when you when you when you're giving people free food it's baked in that you have there's a power dynamic I'm giving you free food come back tomorrow I'll give you more. That's redemption of the giver Liberation the receiver is why don't we create a co op model in which you're a part owner. And we'll work from there so again there's that there's that sense of trying to tinker around the edges of a system that is still based on come to me and stand in my line. And what I find awkward is the way we oftentimes segment people to get services so, for example, we oftentimes will say if you're old, you go over there to that line. If you want to self identify as a poor worker, you can stand in this line. And I must admit, it's, I become more and more intrigued by community meals and the idea of everyone eating together and this is another should be a byproduct of cobit. You know instead of the kind of understandable, but kind of fundraising the vocabulary of, you know they used to be the donors now they're the clients. It should have been a clarion call of saying you know maybe the power of fighting hunger is is the more powerful ally and hunger is community, not charity. And how can we put people together in this in this moment where a lot of economic lines have been erased, you know people who used to be middle class now suddenly come to the food bank wouldn't be great to put them together. And if I may mark I'm sorry man I'm a I'm a little bit of a talker here but an even more powerful opportunity is if I could do anything right now. I would be fascinated to work on creating an intergenerational political alliance around food. Food is such a unifying tool it's too often I think food banks and pantries view it as gas for the human body. Come here and fill up versus that idea, no come here, and let's plot, you know that idea of let's start to talk about politics, and how can we elect a generation of people who view food as an essential right who view nonprofits as essential economic partners. These are the kind of things that will diminish the need for charity and elevate I think the power of community. Absolutely and you can never talk enough I want to go deep I want to bring out these things and we I mean we could really talk for hours because there's so many that we've picked one of the biggest topics of life and and so there there are so many things that we can touch upon. Today is International Women's Day, and there is a big role that women play in and kitchens and in this whole movement of creating food which is. I've heard you say it before but I really want to go back to your words as well that not only it's an essential part of the economy which is kind of funny because originally women who now get in the workforce or get this empowerment to be like oh well you can only do these certain types of things and they did it so damn well that now that you know they've created this huge economy almost that's equivalent to the size of India you know it's this sector of what they do they do it so well and they've proven how how how successful that it can be and that's another thing that you really discuss as well you you have this saying that says there is no profit without nonprofit and and there's there's so much that ties into that but I was kind of wondering if you can give us a little journey or enlighten us on how the big part that women play in this movement and what things have kind of been suppressed and what are really coming to light. Well I really wish your audience with stuff for second really take in that that economic principle there's no profits without nonprofits because if you really look hard no matter where you go in the world. If you don't have arts and culture communities of faith healthcare education clean air clean water all the things nonprofits provide. You don't have a local economy is no vibrancy to a town you know so I've always hoped that we would own that economic principle or at least push it harder. But you know there's an interesting kind of parallel in that. Not as an international women's day but you know it was just a couple of years ago that we had at least in the states kind of a real record breaking election of women into political office and there was a lot of celebration yet. It took 100 years from the 19th amendment that gave women white women the right to vote to get these kind of numbers and that begs a big question right. So, you know I've always tried I tend to be an amateur futurist and work on probability women out live men women out number men. What does that look like and we can get to that. But I became fascinated on the fact that here was the nonprofit sector in America that has so much political. I mean so much economic such an economic role to play yet doesn't have an equal economic or political role to play you know we don't have for example, access to capital, the way the traditional businesses to mail the male dominated business sector the dot com world in the states. You know they have they can get loans all kinds of different access to capital, we have to rattle a cup and hope a rich person gives us some money. And I pointed out many times, even though God bless Bill Gates and Warren Buffett with the giving pledge. It's still based on this idea of make as much money in your life as you can by any means necessary, and somewhere near the end of your life give a little bit back to offset the damage you did it's never designed to work. So that idea that we are funded through that system in itself is kind of economic sexism it's it basically says, if you are subservient and quiet and you feed the poor will give you a grant, but there's no money for political activism no money for economics no money for voter, well there's a little bit of money for voter registration I take that back. But as I found when I really tried to organize kind of a pack, saying hey, what would it be like if we actually elected more and more people who actually ran nonprofit at least, at least, we had people who understood our role involved in the legislative process. So, but you know when you look at the role of women in the American workplace in the late 1950s. There was women were about 19% of the workforce and over the next 35 years they grew into almost 49% 50% of the American workforce. Around the nonprofit sector went from about 60,000 charities to almost 1.4 million and a $3 trillion in assets, 360 billion in annual revenue 14 million employees, 60 million volunteers, and again, you can't make profit without us. There is I believe a me to moment in the ascent of the nonprofit sector in which the women who make up 70% of the founders the volunteers the workers are women this is the feminized part of the American economy and I believe only only when our sector owns its history owns its power owns its economics and owns its role. Will we move beyond mere charity and see a door opening to a much more vibrant, deeper, more interesting, and more liberating time, not just in America but globally. I totally agree and you say it so eloquently and it tie it all together. Give us a little bit more insight on what you've seen in the past the type of employees and volunteers and people you have come and work at the central kitchens and even more so. Who's that food go who's up for kind of a little bit more explanation because I think it wasn't until Jose, really that even more awareness around this for for many people around the world was happening and through your child award many other awards as well at that that they're like saying what is this world central kitchen and that can give us more insight on that as well. Well, you know yes and there's the what we do but then there's the why and we'll get into the why a little bit later but it is important to give your audience your listener some sense of, you know what is this model. Now, just so you know again you mentioned earlier I ran nightclubs and my idea for a nightclub is the kind of Trojan horse that music theater comedy dance can be. You know, not unlike food. I alluded earlier that's too many people in my movement in this movement view food is gas for the body similarly. Many people view music and that stuff as candy for the ear. I'm more interested in the fact that when I was coming up and a child in the 1960s. I was 10 in 1968 when Dr King was murdered. Robert Kennedy was assassinated murdered says our Shavez who was working doing a 25 day fast to raise awareness about the plight of migrant workers. So I saw, you know, so many interesting people I mean again when I was a kid Malcolm X Gloria Steinem, surely chism, there were just amazing leaders. And so I kind of self baptized very early in the kind of the I chose my side very early. But again, what I witnessed was how speeches and talks tended to make people fearful, right. And I was interested in, okay, these ideas must carry on just because they killed the leaders doesn't mean the idea has to stop. There's that old. In fact, it's years ago I went to Martin Luther King's the assassination the Lorraine motel was assassinated. And before they built a giant kind of civil rights museum around it there was a very simple plaque right where he lay. He said, low, here comes the dream or let us slay him and see what becomes of his dream. And that idea for me is what becomes of the dream. But I again as I said, I was aware of how people were so fearful of political ideas yet. I was actually my parents had a party, and my dad put on some Motown records and everybody danced people who might have been fearful of the ideas of women's liberation migrant workers civil rights. And dancing to ideas that were basically civil rights ideas put to music, and I became fascinated by that idea of like, wow, I mean that they don't like it over here but they'll listen to it over here, maybe long enough to hear a new idea. So that was my intent I was going to open the greatest nightclub in the world I left, you know, high school didn't go to college, my college was nightclubs, and I came up in a very glorious time I mean you know I was in the music world you know the mid 70s, when you know punk rock and then 77 980 when the glory of the world, the tableau of global music opened up, and suddenly it was like, you know King Sonny a day. You know, and all the music of Africa's you know just it was a mind blowing time to be craft work suddenly comes out with electronic music. You know, I mean it was just it was a breathtaking time. So here I was enjoying life, planning plotting to open the world's greatest nightclub, yet simultaneously homelessness became more and more and more visible prominent and more visceral in that, at least in DC where I lived. Here were people in front of the White House behind the White House all up and down the ellipse, anybody's been to Washington DC or sadly, almost any city in the world now sees homeless people everywhere. And like most people I was empathetic but I felt it was someone else's job and I ran nightclubs and all that. And this is why I oftentimes refer to myself as a recovering hypocrite, because I talked eloquently about changing the world with music and theater and art blah blah blah. Yet when I was asked did I want to go out and serve homeless people in my own backyard. I looked for every excuse to get out of it. You know I was young and I was afraid I mean, I think too often we're afraid to acknowledge that we all have bigotries and we're all, we don't have fears. And then I allowed the image of the homeless to keep me at bay, you know so I look for every excuse not to go out to feed the poor one night, ended up going. And two things happen. It was raining. So here we were serving people outside in the rain, but we were also serving them food purchase from one of the most expensive stores in Washington DC. I was trying in my own business just trying to get through this night, but it was this nagging moment on which there was this kind of duality of saying wow they're buying food but I know restaurants hotels caterers farmers are American food system relies on there's a huge amount of waste baked into our kind of economic plan you know every time you buy a meal, part of the cost that meal covers stuff that didn't get no didn't make it out. So I thought, wow, I mean you could if you could get that food and bring it to a central kitchen you could feed more people better food for less money so there was an economic aspect of what is a cheaper faster better way to do this and I respect what they're doing but but more importantly was that that going back to the idea of here I was in a warm truck serving people outside the rain, and I just felt like I'm the one who's being served here, you know, I think this system rewards me with the great sense of I've done a great deed, you know, I can go home and sin relentlessly now for 24 hours because I got to you know I got a pass, but it almost mandated that somebody be outside the truck in the rain for me to be able to do that. And I just also thought look restaurants have all this food but they also have jobs. Wouldn't be interesting to create a central kitchen but a cooking school so that men and women can come off the street and be part of the solution versus perennial recipients of well intended charity as Morrissey once saying, you know, they were, they were hostages to kindness, and that idea of saying there's got to be a way in which both sides can be liberated simultaneously. As I've said earlier, you know, about the redemption of the giver I'm a sinner dude I need all the redemption I can get. I just refuse to do it at the expense of another human being. If you could create a system in which both sides were redeemed simultaneously, you know, wouldn't that be great. Now, you know, I was just a nightclub guy just trying to help I was a volunteer who wanted to help. Yet, every charity I went to including the local food bank in DC and all the other groups I went to seemed hell bent on trying to shoot down this idea and I'm like, dude, I'm just trying to help I'm a volunteer. But again, this is cheaper faster better. And you're going to shorten the line by the very reserve it how can you not want to try this. And it was kind of ridiculous it got to the point where, you know, people said, oh restaurants won't hire addicts or people out of prison and it's like, dude, you've never worked in a kitchen and a restaurant I mean, it is an island of misfit toys, you know, but that's when I realized that the charities that I assumed would have a by any means necessary culture, didn't. And they were so wed to their model that they couldn't see past it in fact they were so wed with that they were going to resist and fight against innovation. Okay, I launched DC kitchen because no one else would. But when I launched it, I swore, and it's been a massive part of my journey is, how do I never become those people how do I become how do I avoid that trap of saying no way and so again I became a fierce advocate of yes. Anyway, to really dig in here and I'm sorry for the long winded. Fine I'm glad we're getting it that's beautiful. I'm just saying look restaurants, you hate throwing away food restaurant tours hate throwing away food. They just don't want to be sued. So and what was interesting is there was an urban myth that it was illegal to donate food I heard this all the time there's never been a law anywhere in the United States at least that prevented the donation of food in fact quite the opposite. So when your patch worked. At the time of the late 1980s. Most states had some kind of a law that said unless you're really trying to hurt somebody, it's gross negligence or malicious intent. You won't be held liable if somebody gets sick if you donate food to a charity. So, you know the restaurants were pretty easy they were excited because, and my pitch was always kind of business it was saying, I'll give you a tax deduction for the photo. A receipt for the weight of food you donated to me and then you and your accountant can figure out if there's a tax deduction for you. But we'll also decrease the amount of pest control the amount of waste management you have to hire to come in and haul your trash away. There'll be a morale boost for your staff who will feel like now they're not just throwing away good food every day and more importantly, I'll take that food, and I'll train somebody for a job and I'll get them to the point where they're a certified food employer, they can show up on time, and they have good knife skills, and then you can do the rest and for most employers, it was like dude just give me somebody shows up on time. I'll figure out the rest. But it was a good piece of business most restaurant tours were like, dude, I give you food you give me you give me a worker. Life is good let's do business. Again, that idea of saying you know a who is most in need of those jobs, you know, so when I started, I worked with the homeless primarily, but when you open that doorway, you know you realize homelessness is a fancy word we use to avoid discussions about racism, a wage, housing, racism, drug abuse, all kinds of things. So, you know, it began this this journey of showing people the real power of food, you know, all the different things food could do to make society better. And then the governor generated a huge amount of volunteer interest because, you know, again, I opened up, I use my showbiz flair, but we opened up on inauguration day for George Bush senior January 20 1989 was kind of our official opening day. Again, media 101. I mean, you know what media outlet in the world could resist food from the inauguration going to poor people the next day. So it, it generated a huge amount of interest. But this is another big important moment because I realized, you know I'm sitting here in the nation's capital, and I've got access to the president and all these parties and media. I grew as the 90s unfolded and you had cable television the internet. So I really decided very early that I would be selfish and wrong to absorb all that light. You know, and I decided that the DC kitchen was going to be a reflector to a larger movement that my whenever somebody came and they came all the time volunteers media politicians. It was my mantra was going to be I am one of many, you know, I represent a movement of more and more and more people who want to really explore the power of food, not just a warehouse to redistribute food. And so that attracted enormous amount of volunteers and I became aware that if I could bring people into the kitchen knowing that like I was that first time I volunteered I never let go of that idea of a I was a volunteer be I was a volunteer who offered ideas and was rebuffed. That idea of really showing deep respect for volunteers you're giving me part of your day I'm we're obligated I'm obligated to be respectful of your time and your contribution. But like any good nightclub or any good business person you know your best advertisers are happy customers. So we embrace this idea we called the calculated epiphany. And it was based on this idea that if we set the stage knowing that most people walk in thinking I'm going to go into one of the biggest homeless shelters in America which is where DC kitchen was really growing it was right below the Catholic United States. And most people if you say come to the biggest shelter come around back it's in the basement we're going to be doing 4000 meals made with leftover food and training homeless people for jobs. Most people's imaginations go wild with images that are negative, you know, homeless people with knives, you know, big pots of gruel, you know, dirty disorganized because it's a nonprofit. And so what we decided is if we were really subtle and diabolical quite honestly we could lure people in with this kind of sense of come help us feed the poor. But once they walked in and they would say this was all the way from presidents to like fourth graders, you know, everyone walked in and they were like, Wow, this is really, you know, this is super clean super organized. Look at the quality of the food. I'm sitting here next to someone who did time in prison that I would normally be terrified, yet we're having this great conversation, while we together side by side, cook a meal for the community. That was a big part of our model was side by side, you know that idea of President States and the Obama's and the Clintons were regular volunteers. The idea that someone who might have spent 20 or more years in prison and may have at times considered ending their life. You know, I got 10 more years left on my sentence. I can't do it. You know, but they did it and here they are through some bizarre twist of fate standing next to the President States and for the predominantly African African American men and women who went through DC kitchen. The idea of here's the first African American president and here I am standing telling the president how to do this. You know, to me that was the real power and the kind of, if you will the nightclub edge of what I was doing was because anytime a president or somebody came here was all the media in the power of showing someone who's in prison guiding the president States and the smartest people around guiding them through this gently lovingly helping the president contribute to the city we shared. Dude, you know that's to me that's the kind of subtle. That's, it's almost remember I alluded to earlier the power of music. That's a love song. You know that's like one of those great love songs that every time it comes on the radio you swoon, or you grab your lover's hand, you know, that's what I wanted to do I want people to when they saw that to me, that was a social heroic. You know that idea of the president and someone from prison working side by side as citizens of a shared city to me. That was poetry in motion, you know, and that was a faster way I felt to change people's minds than spouting, you know, kind of statistics about who's hungry and why it's a beautiful story and I can see I can feel it when I hear it you know that's really tells listeners how you know what what is a central kitchen what is what is, you know, the DC central kitchen and later you really went on to to many more kitchens and collaborations and sit on the boards and advisory. Because there is this model it's a model that your mantra there is no profit without nonprofit it's a better operating system it's a better business model it's a smarter way to run an organization and I would suggest for anybody that is listening to this to go to your old website your new website look up your YouTube you have hundreds of different videos and most of them. You're standing right there in the kitchen and I know exactly what you're what you meant when you say you know when people have this vision. I've never been to a central kitchen before run or run with homeless people or people from jail and these God knows what they imagine you know it's these horrific visions, but not one of them is like that it's a very clean very fun atmosphere, a lot of good noise positive upbeat noise people breath nice looking clean making fabulous food, just some of them when I look in the background like oh man that looks delicious. And it's coming from a kitchen feeding people who who need it and yeah and so let's go with this. You know baked in there was also this idea of radical no waste, no waste, everything you know the idea of I'm going to squeeze every ounce of opportunity out of every morsel of food I get. And that led to you know again that that fierce sense of I'm never going to get set in my ways and calcify so that that constant hunt, just as a nightclub person would always be listening for that new sound. Where's that new sound that I need to know about and understanding that oftentimes growing up some of the sounds that I became most enamored by were ones that were so foreign that they turned me off at first it's like I can't you know that's that makes no sense to me. But the deeper you listen the more you're like oh I get it now. That idea of constantly looking and this led to campus kitchens, which was saying, um, this began in the 1990s when we started to mandate that every kid in American schools did some form of service to graduate right it became a prerequisite. Now most of it was mandated and most students just okay whatever I'm just going to go to my hours but it's like wow. You know but the model still said again come to me come to my kitchen and I will give you the you can get your service hours here. Well one day I was in rural Indiana and through windshield might might might was raining and through windshield wipers I'm looking and there was this brand new high school in this little town where my parents retired. And it's like, there's a brand new school, and there's a brand new cafeteria kitchen in there, and every kid's got to do service. What would it be like if instead of saying come to my kitchen, I went to their kitchen. And that reverse flow of saying, wow, there's 50,000 school cafeterias in America. And as the cable television kind of introduced the idea the celebrity chef, and more culinary schools were opening, and more people were excited by food. You know that idea of saying wow what a doorway right on campus, and not just in a high school but imagine a university where you have, instead of trying to say to a medical student, come and volunteer and spend one day shopping carrots, versus saying you're a medical student, you know I want your brain, you know I anybody can shop carrot. I want you to help me think about what we can do with the carrot. So that idea of the reverse flow and saying let's go right on to college campuses, and maybe we can look at and this one day again so many of my ideas have been born on these kind of spontaneous moments. But here I was looking at this new school thinking, not only is there a cafeteria but there's a big field behind there, you can do an after school gardening program, or maybe some of the elders in town, who are also very much a part of who's hungry in can come up, and they can have an intergenerational after school gardening program that could fuel the after school cooking program that might produce snacks for the after school mentoring program. And then maybe you alluded earlier we're talking about food banks or we were talking about food banks and pantries pantries, which are the primary distribution point for food bank food were developed in the 1960s primarily for able bodied unemployed people. If you really do any kind of even cursory look at who is hungry in America in most places, it's working women and elders, and for them both either the time of day or the weight of the box is a barrier. So I was looking and thinking about that too and thinking oh and imagine if those after that after school cooking club as a fundraiser to buy to basically raising money to maybe hire an art instructor a music teacher the kind of things that have been cut. Maybe they could actually do meals to go so that when working moms came to pick up their kid from the after school program, or the working mom came up to pick up the kid and her or his, his parent who was mentoring, they could get a meal to go. And so that was one of those moments where it's like boom, let's try that. And it was also because you know a lot of food banks were experimenting with kitchens and many cities, because of our kind of deft use of media we're saying let's build one of these kitchens in our town. Well kitchens are expensive to build. And again my thing is where's something that's already there in fact, virtually everything that the model of a community kitchen is saying, whatever you need, it's already there. There's in virtually every town in fact, this was a big part of our mantra. Everything we use exists where you are. We're taking food our society throws away. People are society into values kitchens that are underutilized volunteers who want to make something powerful happen. Chefs who will teach, but also have jobs, men and women who want off the streets, agencies that want better food it's all there. I just came along, kind of like somebody who said, you know that old formula for equals mc square. It's almost as if charity was saying m equals easy square. And they were trying to make it work and it's like, dude, it's all there it's just the wrong order the wrong formula. So a lot of times what I do is I can I consider myself kind of a social chef. And in that I'm not I've never been a chef. I mean everyone thinks I've been in kitchens in my life. I'm a front of the house man. I'm a show I'm a I'm a huckster I'm a carnival Barker. But, you know, a big part of what we're doing is saying, a chef is someone who comes into your home and says, and you're like so embarrassed. Oh my God, I can't believe I have a chef in my home, and I have nothing to eat this is really embarrassing. When I close in and 20 minutes later is food coming out and you're like how'd you do that. You know, I'm, I can do that with a town. Just like many people think my pantries bear met many towns think we're poor, we're behind it. You know we don't have anything to work with. And I'm like no no no no you're actually a lot richer than you think you just need a chef like me to come in and really understand all the things and show you what a feast is waiting for your community. And that is, I mean, there are so many deep dives that we can go deeper into that. I really appreciate you sharing that I've heard some other videos and seeing you actually even speak just spontaneously at firehouses and especially during the coven time. Great resources there are so you have these other lenses when you look at the world. It's more of not only one of resilience but it's more of the infrastructure, you know it's also front of the house but with what exists with what we're given. How do we how do we make this work and how do we make it work that that most people who are middle in the situation sometimes can't even see. Mark it's important to acknowledge I'm a white man in America. You know, I'm not smarter. I just had a lot doors that doors were already open for me. So there are, again this goes back to that idea of I am one of many and that idea of reflecting light because I was given visibility money proximity to power that there's groups all around the world there are tons of better than I am but they're going to get a president of the United States coming not once but multiple times, they're never going to get these big grants that I got, and that those big grants and that access and then we started our own social businesses we were really, I think one of the very first social enterprises in America, at least of the modern iteration. I would say one of the rarest gifts, which is time to take a deep breath and lift my head up from the urgency of making payroll and keeping the lights on and getting meals out the door. I could think, you know, and that's the rarest gift for somebody in the nonprofit sector so a acknowledge that gift, but I always try to be as accessible about these ideas and again dedicate them all on what's already there. Now you mentioned both you asked her or about Kobe and you just brought this up and this is another fun way to risk, because I was asked, I live in rural New Mexico now, and a place interesting enough, where some of the earliest agriculture in the United States, not North South America but just in the continental states, the three sisters of what we call the three sisters corn beans and squash, we're really developed in the poor blowing culture here. And it's enough right up the hill for me I mean I'm talking like stones throw is the first mine, am I any mine in America where turquoise was mine, and they trade it so you got this this area here where we live has a very ancient pedigree. But I was asked by the mayor of Santa Fe to offer counsel about food during coven. And again, my bag is always, you know there's the old way but is there based on these new set of circumstances is there a new model we can explore. So, I started looking around and I was actually quite interested in the role of convention centers all across America. And I told anybody who would listen. If you were in town coven's coming and we don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to turn Mayor about the convention center because you may end up needing the convention center floor to triage patients, if the hospitals overwhelm and underneath our labyrinth kitchens with loading docks for big trucks, so they're ideal this is where we should look. The convention center here in Santa Fe was open to it, but at the same time I also went out to the local community college. I've been really interested in community colleges and land grant universities, because I know why your audiences is global. One of the things that I think is most interesting about American history is in the late 1800s. They develop what are called the land grant universities that were in effect, the first time in the history of the world where people said let's educate the sons and daughters of farmers. I was always been intrigued by the state colleges in these places that were built around the ag schools these were designed primarily to get young students to come in to get the latest science to get what was known as yield per hectare you know how do we get all the energy we can out of out of land. But I started looking at this community college in lobal there was a big kitchen out there they had a culinary program, and I went out and the dean could not have been more enthusiastic. I was talking about the role that the students who had left school because the school closed down because of COVID. Was there a way to bring the back in. And instead of just volunteers could we actually give students credit hours that they were now missing because of COVID, could we in effect, re kickstart the culinary program and bring students back to get credit hours to prepare meals for the community. And we were like, boom, yes, we can. And not only that, but you know the dean said hey we have a nursing program. Why don't we give nursing students credit hours to develop the health protocols to keep everybody safe. You know and hey there's a big giant greenhouse here. We can flip the switch on that and get the greenhouse students credit hours and they can grow bib lettuce and bok choy and all the things that you might be able to use. You know soon there's this new system, but then it became fascinated because I started to go to fiestas here in New Mexico, which are community meals, you know, and a I became fascinated by the fact that the traditional meals of New Mexico meals people love are things like green chili stew, Pasole, which is kind of a hominy corn thing. There's so many amazing traditional meals that are actually really affordable. And they show respect for indigenous foods. So it's like wow, this is getting interesting. You know we can reboot the community college give students credit hours which to my knowledge no one had really done that before you know really incorporated volunteerism less as if you have some spare time come on over, but really trying to find a way to institutionalize and actually say to culinary programs not just at the community college but everywhere in America. Instead of focusing exclusively, which if you go to colony schools I guarantee you they pretty much all focus on European fine dining. You know that's what they aspire to teach students so that they can produce these beautiful meals. Well, now what you as a generation of chefs who, yeah, they want to learn that, but they want to learn how to be nutritional activists in their community, you know, culinary warriors. So saying to the community college, not only is this a great deal but this might actually boost the number of people who want to now become chefs because they see a chef isn't necessarily just a fancy fine dining person, but a hero, you know who really is part of, you know, a community response to COVID. So that idea though of, and it's funny I'm looking out the window now only because in this tiny little village of 300 where I live and you mentioned it earlier. It's a firehouse and firehouses are interesting safe places. You know if you're an addict, you're not afraid of the firehouse in fact it's the fire people who come and oftentimes revive you when you overdose. So they're their friend, I mean, friendly is the wrong word but they're safe. If you're undocumented fire people aren't there to bust you. These are and actually, you know, it's they're interesting spots and they're everywhere. So I became fix it and said he had let's use firehouses as distribution points, because fire people are oftentimes associated with public health and maybe there's a way we can layer meals with COVID tests or a variety getting free masks or whatnot. So this was another model that I must admit I'm kind of pushing now I'm really working with a lot of culinary schools to look at their curriculum and see if they can take a little bit of a minor in culinary activism and teach things like the role that food played in Indian independence where Mahatma Gandhi use table salt to get the British to the negotiating table, where Thomas Clarkston in the late 1700s began working on abolition, and the first modern boycott in England which led to England being the first country to abolish the slave trade. Cesar Chavez use table grapes in California to get migrant workers their basic rights. So the road, you know the imagine teaching aspiring chefs, the role that food is played constantly in social justice movements and helping them understand the role they could play as a new kind of chef in a new world. Well, really it's they're all essential services and if they're in the learning phase of becoming a chef or in their culinary career or even as you said hospice nurses medical assistants though those are those are all actually should be national cornerstone courses, you know, yeah, you can say it's their minor in their degree, but they're the basics because if you don't learn those things if you're not able to provide those basics when the hard times come and they will come. You'll be home, you won't be an essential worker you won't be one of the ones who provides us or it or you will, but you won't have some of those skills or some of those tools in your tool belt that are necessary to really help to have a different view of the world and so one of my earlier careers was was in medical services medical industry and nurses a nurse practitioner medical assistant medical aid and then on to pre med. And in that entire area, there was always that initial emergency phase right alongs with fire department with ambulance with with those same with the food industry you know there you know there was these basics you know you're the sous chef you're doing the garbage you clean you're cleaning the plates you're there's a basic startup and then you get to see how do we reduce food waste how do we do all these services I think it's a fabulous and a time of need, where we pivot on a dime and we we say, try because you can't go to school anymore you can't continue as your education let's work together with governments policies and cities and get you back in there delivering those essential essential services that are needed anyway, which build up a community's infrastructure sustainable infrastructure long term sustainable development actually to keep them going in times like this and need. There's a couple other things and I mean, like, like I said in the beginning we could talk for hours there's so many things and deep dives that we could go into. But the whole model, so to say, I've heard you say it before was based upon a similar model to FedEx, what FedEx had this as kind of DC kitchen was based on a FedEx model in some respects and I don't know if over the years that evolved and fine tuned even from that. But you wrote the book begging for change, and I don't know what the sub title of that is you can tell us that. Can you tell us a little bit more about the business models you use how you turn you know besides what you've already told us from your dream to be a nightclub owner and how you've kind of applied these different lenses of running this organization but also what you wrote about in your book begging for change which also has to do with the bigger food systems and what's going on as well. Well, you know markets interesting because you know as I said earlier I had time and that gave me a lot to think about anything if I also had an interesting sidebar in my career in that in Washington DC the local united way which is kind of an aggregate giving system for those in your audience who might not be familiar with the model. It was under. There was a great scandal. And here was an organization that generated almost $90 million a year and donations was suddenly tanking and I had no business, even even remotely putting my name in the ring, and I didn't anticipate but I thought they've given so much to the market that somebody has to help. So I wrote up some ideas and the next thing I know the phone rang, and they were saying do you want the gig. And I'm like dudes, you know I didn't get to college I'm a bartender who feeds people, you know, you, this is a giant sophisticated machine. There's no one else we need you. So I said great. Now, in the back of my head. I'm also thinking, Oh my God they just gave, you know, a nonprofit direct service provider, the keys to the biggest fundraising tool in DC. And this was like in my, my thought was every nonprofit in town it was like I was turning around saying to the gang. Oh my God they put one of us in charge. Let's go and really turn it around and making it to something that isn't just a pass through, but something different. But Mark they were none of the nonprofits were there. They were all basically trying to keep their own little ship alive and here was this opportunity that if you got any of them drunk on any given day this would have been their dream. And here was their dream came true but they still couldn't let go of that sense of but if I if I help you with something bigger I might lose my thing. And that caused me great frustration. So the book I wrote was that idea of how can the nonprofit sector why why do we settle went for literally begging for change when we should be begging for bigger change working for change the whole system was begging for change. So, the idea was, what led us to this point that we're so benign and so disjointed and so fractured and fighting each other for crumbs off the table and that led to a lot of the work I've done around the idea of the role of the nonprofit sector globally in politics, you know, we oftentimes rely on excess money to try to try and solve problems that are systematic to capitalism writ large now I'm not one of those let's destroy capitalism but I do honestly believe we should question some dictates and I'll give you a classic example of the kind of ideology that I'm thinking about. It's a fun little brain teaser but in 1986, roughly, the year that Bill Gates took Microsoft public. If you would invested $1,000 in Microsoft you'd have last time I checked it was one point something million dollars that $1,000 investment would have generated. Not yet you, but if you had given $1,000 in 1986 to Mohammed Eunice, when he was founding the German Bank, which has elevated millions of women primarily out of poverty through micro loans. It's eligible for a one time tax deduction because you gave to a charity. Now why not tweak the tax code and allow for an annual tax deduction of increasing value based on the same algorithm as a return on investment formula dividend, if a nonprofit can show a verifiable economic return. And that idea of economic return for nonprofits how many people didn't go to jail how much food was saved I mean, there's a whole litany of metrics you can come up with. Imagine what that be like if for the for a new generation of citizens workers activists, if they could attain wealth by investing in community. Imagine how that would hyper incentivize nonprofits to be to develop a new set instead of just, I fed the poor it incentivizes it doesn't say you still can't get a donation for feeding the poor, but you're going to have a lot more people donating if you find a way to liberate for people and get them working. That would incentivize the evolution of the sector. That would give younger people instead of having to invest in Wall Street. Imagine if they can invest in their hometown and help the nonprofit sector evolve into something a little bit more than what we are, which is, in fact, kind of a benign charity model on to me. That's business 101 that's just electing a generation of people who aren't burdened by the kind of bifurcated view that.com businesses drive the economy well.org charities do good deeds. Imagine if you could, you know, elect somebody who said this line is the problem. You know just as miles Davis said when metaphorically said when he released kind of blue in 1959. You know, I don't need a 12 bar blue structure. My music has no structure. You know, just as Jose Andreas came along and said, I don't need a four compartment trade to define a meal in which the main course goes here. Forget, you know, forget these lines. I've always been interested in that line between, you know, for profit and nonprofit, which I think is artificial and damaging. And before we go forward, I just wanted to loop back and talk a little bit about LA kitchen because I've based a lot of my work on probability. You know, what's around the bend so instead of because I had a big business I had to I had to know if I'm going to do 5000 meals a day and this thing I didn't know where's the food going to come from because all food that is in a food banker pantry every morsel represents lost profit. Somebody grew it somebody manufactured somebody cooked it and they couldn't sell it so they donated to cherry. You can I mean doesn't they get genius to figure out that's not going to last forever. In fact, you could make a case that the post World War two economy generated massive surplus, which allowed the nonprofit sector to grow from 60,000 to 1.4 million because there was always leftover food leftover time leftover money. Well that era of extra is closing. So you could predict that supply of food was going to do that. But at the same time, I became fascinated by aging global aging because nowhere there is no place in the world that is prepared for this unheard of moment in which people are going to live 510 1520 years longer than their grandparents or grandparents it's never happened before. And there's no plan for that and if you look at savings patterns you realize, wow, what's coming is supply demand. That's the future. So that that that quest for what's the system that's going to allow you to feed more people better food for less money, anticipating who's next in line instead of saying, there's a lot of old people coming. You know, make the pantry or the food bank bigger. Again, it's thinking about firehouses intergenerational after school mentoring programs. What are ways that you really engage elders. Now long, long story short, is the only way to do this is going to be plant forward. You know it's not vegetarian or vegan even though that's a very solid option. It's just saying let's, let's meet people where they're at smaller footprint for the animal protein. So I went to Los Angeles because that you know, pretty much unlimited supply of fruits and vegetables that I could experiment with. At the same time, it's one of the greatest concentrations of international flavors in the world you have the largest concentration of Iranians Armenians, South Koreans, so many cultures in which you can experiment with their flavors and put stuff together. But you know what happened one day organically knock knock knock on the door. This young guy was standing there come on in. He's like, you know, hey, I'm a medical student down the street. And I'm intrigued because I've read about a university program in Tulane, which is a college in New Orleans. That's culinary medicine. And we really need one here can we partner with LA kitchen to do a culinary medicine program. And I'm like, damn straight you can. Let's do it. Now it's interesting because they wanted to learn preventative care and to your point, there's a whole generation justice is a generation of chefs who want to be a different kind of chef. There's also a generation of doctors coming who want to experiment with preventative care, which is going to be diet. And what a great ally in not only helping elders kind of over this kind of carnivorous culture we live in. But just really let's explore what is a new generation of aging look like. But I was also interested because we're getting tons of fruits and vegetables. We're having, we're dicing, we're pure rain, juicing, everything you can do. And then we had a big compost pile, right. Now any chef in your audience knows that hey, you know, you can make vegetable stock with that, which we did. But given the volume we could not store that much vegetable stock. So I became interested in super reductions getting it down to a hyper broth, you know, a super fortified shot. We could do that but I want I say to the medical students, you know, look, we're dealing with a needle exchange program downtown, and they're like a 30 year old heroin addict. What would be potentially the vegetable fruit ratio combinations formula that would be perfect for that person versus an 80 year old diabetic and the idea of actually working with medical students to develop broth formulas specifically designed to be like these booster shots. These are the kind of experiments that I dig. And again, it's all it was all there. And we were just taking it even further down with that idea of like before we compost it, let's make something more out of it, you know. So again, I just, if anybody in the audience is really trying to absorb all this it's just that idea of a combination of as Quentin Tarantino says, you know, kind of a view a skew. Just tilt your head and try and see your community. See all the things that are there that if you're, if you're just walking down the street you see him as everyone else does it's a firehouse, you know, it's a garden whatever it's old people. And, you know, tilt your head and see the world differently and all the ways they can fit together, but also that idea of radical no waste, you know, it's just, when you stop and you think about philanthropy around the globe. You know what you what we what what we really reveal is the deeper hunger. There is out there. You've got an army of people who before they died, want to feel like they made a difference in the world, you know, I was a servant to something bigger than myself, I, I, my life mattered, you know, and that's what nonprofits can do is can give people a place where their life can matter. And you know there's a traditional way of like I serve the poor today versus no dude I was part of something fucking much bigger than that. And to me that's what's out there, that's the energy that is right at our fingertips. So instead of saying give me money, so I can feed the poor say you know give me your time and let us rock this world. So, again, so many words of wisdom and wonderful things that you've presented to us there. I want to touch on a couple of them. More so, we're going to put the link to your book and where people can get your book and read it review it in the show notes and descriptions so that that will definitely be there. Before you spoke a little bit about the LA kitchen and, and the opportunities for where you talked about some division you also talked about this, this separation but you also talked about these different cultures and types of foods and different nationalities and global nationalities. That brings real unique question that I asked all my guests and I want to see how you tie it together with your, your breath of experience. How would you feel about a world without divisions nations borders humanity separated one from another as you yourself being part of a global world global citizen, so to say. Especially during this, this past time where not many of us have been global citizens in some respects we've been on lockdown we've been separated social distancing can kind of confined our borders and nations and divisions, but the pandemic was global citizen foods been a global citizen during this time air water. Breathing's been been global resource or good, so to say, and species don't don't hold the balance so how would you feel about being a global citizen in a world without divisions and borders and humanity separated one from another. Maybe your personal thoughts or feelings on that. Well you know it's funny man. The other day somebody posted a friend of mine on Facebook it's like what's a song that never fails to move you know, and it's funny man because this young man, the song, imagine, you know by john Lennon. I mean, I think I was 22 when john was assassinated. And that song never so again I think those ideas were very deep in my in my culture. And so a lot of when I talked about a night club and also there was this there were these songs that spoke to a more unified global world that really resonated. So again that's that's very, very much baked into what I do. And so I'm always interested in what are the common things we have in common you know and food. One of the reasons I think Jose and the work with world central kitchen has been so well received because going back to some of these ideas of charity oftentimes when America comes to a disaster zone, we import we bring food with us and say over here to feed you we're going to tie food or whatever. And our model was always like, No, that actually hurts the local economy let's go and let's buy local food and employ local chefs and get them back to work and so you're, you're meeting the need. And that I think globally people saw a new, a new hunger or disaster relief model that really challenged the orthodoxy of whether it's FEMA the Red Cross and they're all fine groups but again, a much, much more interesting model. Dude that's that's the thing that interests me and, you know, going back to that moment when I started looking at colleges and universities and high schools and that that realization that there's an entire generation in there, and they're being raised to service this is probably Mark if you really get down to do probably the most interesting social experiments in the history of the world. Never before, and this is just in the continental United States where there's 100 million people under 35 who've been raised doing service. I mean, dude that's a, and to my knowledge there's never been any kind of researcher study. What did we get. I mean I think my generation was like probably baked in was this idea, boy kids going volunteer they'll see how good they got it and they'll be they'll come home and clean the room versus that idea of what happens if even a small percentage of those students I want to do something about this, but I don't want to be. I don't want to choose between making money and doing good. I don't want to choose between integrity and a paycheck. I don't want to choose between.com and.org. I want to do it all. And that's social enterprise. So here you have globally, you know if you add that 100 million here in the United States but globally a generation of young people who have a global language of hip hop. Connected through, you know their iPhones or whatever, you know tick tock there's just so many different ways in which this generation, who sadly I think are oftentimes kind of modified by this idea of like well your generation next, you know, and it's like fuck that your generation now our world needs bold dynamic new ideas but basically we need your, your voting power, and we need your economic power to challenge. I mean dude that's the history of the world, every generation, it's their right. It's their right to challenge status quo the previous generations, ideas, and I just would love to see that younger generation not fall into this trap of I'm going to start a charity versus no I'm going to run for office and challenge the need for charity politically or I'm going to run for business and the way I run my business every day is going to be my philanthropy via the way I pay my employees, I give them the day off to vote, I provide health care, the way I source my stuff. You know all these things speak to a much more powerful response to some of the ills that our generation is faced. You know I've always said man, one of the worst failures I've ever seen has been my generations version of success. I mean, I bought a lot of stuff ergo I should be happy. And I think what you see. In fact dude every single morning, every single morning, 10,000 people in the United States turn 70 every day 10,000 people and every day for the next 15 years. And you think you could put your head out the window and here aside as 10,000 people look in the mirror and wonder how did I get so lost. How did I get tricked. How could I have heard Bob Marley, you know, how could I have heard through the Aussie, or Grace Jones or 1000 others how could I have seen things, and got so tricked into thinking more stuff would make me happy. And to me that connection between a generation of older people who have so much more to do in their life, combined with the energy of a younger generation say let's try it a new way imagine the power. If those two generations could find common cause. And to me that's what food represents food to me is the greatest politically or political organizing tool, what be. Yeah, I am to the hardest question I have for you today really is the burning question WTF. And it's not the square word that we've all been asking ourselves since the pandemic and all the craziness that's been going on in our world but it's really the question. Robert, what's the future. The future is intergenerational. The future is going back to one of the things that I think is so powerful about where I live in New Mexico is the Pope low and culture, in which again there was that sense and it's almost an agrarian culture, in which everybody had a role to play. And somehow we allow this this segment to this kind of baked an idea of like once you pass a certain marker, particularly for women, you have no value anymore. A lot of what I was trying to do throughout my career was saying, isn't it wrong to throw away this tomato, because it has a small blemish on it. And I could reveal, look at, I can teach somebody to cook and a skill by cutting that little blemish off and look at what's left. It was, it was, I was trying to also bounce to say, but what about this person. This person has a wrinkle, because they're old, does that mean they have no value they have the blemish of incarceration or a bruise of addiction. And I suppose it is to throw away this piece of food, because it has this one cosmetic wrinkle, isn't it equally or doubly or quadruply wrong to waste this human. So I believe the only real future is to redefine aging and give elders a constant ongoing role, one of respect but also one of opportunity and, you know, just as everybody is to to the to the day you die. It's an opportunity to work side by side with another generation to make the change you want to see in the world happen today. The last three questions I have for you today are really for my listeners their takeaways for them to power them help them give them advice. If there was one message that you could depart my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change their life what it would it be your message. As much as I've, I haven't played as much a role politically and I, when, and I'm a global citizen so I watch what's happening globally as a younger generation desperately tries to hold on to their freedoms and their rights or their future. But that idea of never be afraid to run for office and be be part of politics, it is really truly hard but policy ultimately is how things get changed. What have you experienced or learn in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. If you chase money you run forever if you chase results money comes to you. You know, the last results. And the last one is really what should young innovators in your field, people who want to start a kitchen who want to do charity or nonprofit, go in the same direction that you have. What should they be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a true impact. And, you know, Gandhi once said I'm probably paraphrasing but the oppressed and the oppressor are equally afflicted. We oftentimes the charity will want to run to heal the oppressed, heal the oppressor, you know, recognize, in fact, you know I said in my work over the years I'm not in the nonprofit I'm in the bravery business, you know my job is to make people brave enough to see themselves or the world or the community differently, you know, to help people who say I'm an addict or I'm a, I've been a prisoner a convict or criminal my life. So you know that's what you were that isn't what you can be. You know it's brave enough to have people who say I can't stand next to someone who prays different next week. You know I can't work with somebody at a prison say yes you can and I'll help you there. Or even a politician to say, I've never thought about challenging capitalism through the tax code and maybe incentivizing people to give the charities as a as a wealth builder. You know, so that idea of bravery. Consider yourself as a charity. Consider yourself your job is to make people brave. And I think that will allow a real a much richer approach to building a business. If you view yourselves as a bravery maker, not a not a charity provider. I've given us some fabulous advice and some super tips for my listeners and that's really all I have for you today but it's been wonderful week like I said we could talk for hours. Is there anything that you would last message you'd like to depart my listeners something that we didn't get a cover here today that's absolutely vital for them to know. Mark a thank you very much brother it's been an honor to spend some time with you today and this was a really fun conversation. You know but I would just urge people to believe in themselves the power you know, again I'm a white dude in America and one of the things it's oftentimes overlooked is the confidence you're born with. I can walk in any room I can do anything. And that's, that's a massive part of what gives white men so much authority is they were born with that sense of confidence but that's what I'd like to see on this international women's day. You know, is it the idea of that women have always, you know, again man, dude, I, you know, not I don't want to pay her but I'm just so in all of the women in my life and the women I've worked with the women who have guided me and taught me. And this is one of the reasons I push so hard on the idea of the nonprofit sector, this is, this is where women have historically been put, you know, go do good deeds. And I'd love if this was the birthplace of a new era of the me to movement, you know, which I think is is an ongoing part of women's, you know, decades centuries, Millennials Long March for equality, and the role they they merit through their hard work and determination. Again sisters in particularly but everybody believe in yourself but always be part of something bigger. So your podcast will be number 83 releases on April 3. So it won't be on the day of International Women's Day which is today but so that people know why why we've been talking about it that is today, Monday, March 8. And it's a historical day it's an important day and it's one that needs to be every day. Yeah, as I was like okay we're picking one day to do this it's actually a world would be a much better place if it was that way, just standard every single day, especially for the women that have influenced me in my life and I know many other powers that that women empowered women and girls have to change and draw down and make our world such a beautiful better place. Thank you so much that's all I have for you and I really appreciate your time and have a wonderful day Robert. Thanks brother, I look forward to our next chat. Take care I do to thanks bye bye.