 Hello everyone, this is Ross at Teacher Talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK. Today I am delighted to be joined by Elizabeth Liber. Elizabeth is the EDHUP Experience podcast host and also LinkedIn's Top Voices of 2020. Good afternoon, Elizabeth, how are you? I'm doing awesome, Ross. Thank you for having me. I'm doing great. Thank you. It's, I mean, obviously we've connected through LinkedIn and your recent award as a Top Voice. How do you feel? I'm excited. How do you feel? I feel awesome. Well, I've got a mixed relationship with LinkedIn, actually, how about yourself? It's weird. I never really was active on LinkedIn until this year. It was like, I had my resume there. I've been at my job for six years, so I wasn't job hunting. So I never went on LinkedIn. And then this year with the lockdown and with being a little bit kind of feeling like displaced, I started to go on there more and more and try to connect with people and kind of get a little bit more of that social aspect of it. And it's been good in that respect, being able to connect with people like yourself that are doing great things. Yeah, for sure. It's great to get that recognition support. So I'm gonna talk about some of the things that you're passionate about, you know, obviously teaching, technology, diversity. So I'll talk about those things shortly. Just for context for people listening here in the UK, I do have one or two people over in the States who do listen in. Could you just give everyone a little bit of a background into your educational experiences? Sure, yeah, absolutely. I was raised in Fort Lauderdale. I actually have literature since I was 12. I'm actually from the UK. So I was born in London, in Southeast London. My family is from the Caribbean, they're Jamaican, and they actually went to UK when they were teenagers, met, fell in love and had me and my brothers and decided to move to Florida when they were like, I was 12, so they were probably like in their 30s, early 40s. And then they just felt, so they just wanted to do something different. My grandmother was living here and we came here. We were all raised here. So I went to University of Florida. I went there in a full journalism scholarship. I wanted to be a writer. And after being there, I just kind of figured, you know what, I wanna go into education. I just decided I wanted to try something else. So started working in actually K through 12 and then did some time working for nonprofits. So I've actually worked for the Salvation Army. That was one of my first jobs. I didn't know that you're passionate and they haven't experienced the Salvation Army. So I was a volunteer coordinator. I coordinated the Angel Tree program. I did that. From there, I went into higher education working as, I was like, well, volunteers, I recruited volunteers. Maybe I can recruit students. So I started working in admissions and I worked in admissions for almost a decade. And then I switched over to faculty and I've been a faculty member both full-time and part-time for the past decade. I've also worked as an instructional designer, which means that for the past six years or so for my school that I work for currently, still teach part-time as an adjunct instructor for a variety of online programs, community colleges, state schools, private schools. I've worked for pretty much all of them, like a dozen or so. So you're very busy. Very busy. But you know, I love to stay busy. I love to try different things. I think as a, because I design online classes, I like to keep my finger on the pulse of what's going on in the classroom, which is why I always still kind of teach a class here and there. And I've been designing online classes for the past six years, which is coming in handy right now because everybody's pivoted to online. I was just gonna talk, you know, the life of a teacher is endlessly busy, you know, not enough cash, all those types of things. So if we're kind of, steer our focus towards the COVID pandemic, Elizabeth. And, you know, I've been really interested in academic research of remote learning throughout the last six months. Just give our listeners an insight into the pressures that you faced in your own educational setting during the pandemic, how you've adjusted, and any insights you might have. Yeah, that's interesting. I think for me, it was not as much of an adjustment because I have already been teaching online for quite a, I started teaching online before I taught in the classroom. So I started teaching online. My first job teaching online was in 2008. I taught for Grand Canyon University, which is a huge online school. And I've taught for a lot of big online programs like Strayer University and Ultimate Medical Academy. Some of those schools have like 40,000 students, 50,000 students. So I'm used to like that course load and having to navigate online platforms, which I've done, you know, pretty much consistently over the past 10 years. So it wasn't as big of an adjustment. I think for students, it's definitely different because a lot of students have never taken online. A lot of instructors have never taught online. So I think for a lot of instructors, it has been a big adjustment because they don't understand like, well, how does it work? Do you have to do live classes? Do you do Zoom? Like a lot of people don't really understand that. What do you think it's been the pain barrier? You know, I've been doing webinars for 10 years myself. So it's been pretty easy to switch. What's been the biggest pain barrier you've observed in your colleagues who may not have got that online experience? I think a lot of it is not really understanding the pedagogy. Like a lot of people feel like in order for something to be in order for it to be beneficial or in order for it to be effective or engaging, it has to be like what we're doing. Like we've engaged with each other because we've been messaging. I've seen your posting and I've kind of seen what you're doing. I looked at your website. So I don't have to engage with you live in order to engage with you, you know what I mean? But I think people have this understanding that in order for me to learn, like I can learn from you because I go on your website and I can listen to your podcast and I can message you and ask you questions about concepts. I don't have to do that in a live setting. It's good to do it in a live setting, but I wouldn't want to do this eight hours straight. And I think sometimes instructors feel as though the only way to get engagement with students is it has to be in this live synchronous environment, which is what they're used to in the classroom. And the thing that we've all seen is that people get Zoom fatigue. People don't necessarily, being on cam, I'm aware of myself. I'm looking at the background. I want to make sure the kids are not going to make any noise. Is someone opening the door? I mean, up constantly, I have so many different... Or we do that in the classroom too, don't we? And we do, we do that in the classroom, but I think we're not as aware of it. And I think there's something to be said about the idea that synchronous and asynchronous, when we talk about online teaching, pedagogy, most of the big schools that have been doing online well for the past, since the 80s, a lot of them don't even have a synchronous component. So I think synchronous isn't kind of the icing on the cake. You don't have to have synchronous. You definitely can have asynchronous. And I think for a lot of the... It's just like sage on the stage. There was a time where... Has there been a bit of a... Our politicians here in the UK, or at least in England, have been really trying to push our state schools to do more synchronous lessons, which is... And the challenge for teachers working with vulnerable kids is that safeguarding issue. What might happen at home, online, behind the camera? Are there... Is there someone there to support a five-year-old or a vulnerable 16-year-old? Is there a much pressure on teachers over in the US to do that type of stuff? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely... I think for the K-12, there's the concept of trying to replicate what happens in the classroom because of the fact that students are not as self-directed. So they want to give that one-on-one interactive, making sure the students have that support. And there definitely is a lot of confusion about how to do that. And I think my daughter, she did high school online, and I think it just goes back again to pedagogy. There is a conflict between what is good online and how does online function. And my daughter did K-12... I mean, she was in K-12, she did high school online and never had synchronous was not required and she did great. So I think a lot of it is not understanding what online pedagogy really consists of. And a lot of people are very adamant that it has to consist of synchronous, it has to have web, it just like Sage on the stage. A lot of us have like, well, you have to do lecture. It doesn't have to be lecture. You can have, you can walk in a classroom and just do groups. And I've done that for like most of my career. And a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, the heresy! How can you not have lecture? You have to stand up there and blur out information and then do a test. We've learned that that's not necessarily the best way to do it. So I think it takes time. You have to, like I said, my daughter did high school very successfully. I had great relationships to her instructors. I talked to her teachers like once a week and never did she have live sessions. So I think a lot of this is people have to wrap their mind around online learning is different from face to face. And even face to face has evolved over time. So we have to really be... A bit of a balance and an adjustment. And what were tips would you give for, I'm hoping there are no dinosaurs left and we're all pretty much up to speed with Lumen teams and Google classroom. Any insights or what would be your top tips for people still reluctant? Because I'm sure there's one or two that still haven't quite adjusted. I think you have to just wrap your mind around the idea of just trying different stuff. Be creative. This is the same way we do in a face to face classroom. There was a time when people observed my class. They were like, you know what? Instead of just lecturing and just standing there, why don't you just say something and give them a little overview and then let them teach the lesson. And I'm like, no, I can't do that. I have to be in control. So we have to get safe with the idea that you can be vulnerable. I think my biggest thing that I've used over the past 10 years when it comes to online is discussion board. Discussion board is just like how in LinkedIn we've connected and we've talked. And in a normal setting, I might not come up to you and be like, hey, Ross, what's up? Let's talk about online learning and let's have a discussion. But we feel totally comfortable with messing each other on LinkedIn and being like, hey, let's talk. That's kind of vibe about this whole online thing. So it's the same thing. I've had the most great relationship with students in an online environment because you put a question out there, post it, just like on LinkedIn, you post a question and then let everybody jump in and talk about it. And sometimes people don't do that in real life. In the classroom, students are hesitant. These are digital natives. A lot of these young students, the digital natives, like we talked about our kids, my son lives on his tablet. So they're used to interacting in online. They do Minecraft. They do roadblocks. They're used to that. So do that. You're a big fan of new technology, aren't you? So could you give our listeners a kind of synopsis of your passions, your kind of day-to-day work in that particular field? Yeah, I mean, I've always an adopter. I think that there's so many different things that you can use that the technology is always changing. So there's all these different, when it comes to platforms, you can use a platform and you could integrate almost anything. Like I'm pretty much like anything that's out there. I just try it. So whether it's integrating different types of discussion boards, whether it's integrating different types of video. I don't think it's necessary that video is bad, but I just think that people tend to get inundated sometimes. It's just like, I wouldn't want to look at an hour-long YouTube video, but I'll look at a five minute YouTube video. So I think we have to just be aware that all these different technologies try them and see what works and see what students respond to. I think sometimes we are like, well, this is what works and this is what worked for me. So this is what it's gonna be. And students are different and students are adaptable. So there's all these different technologies that are out there. There's all these different discussion board technologies. There's all these different interactive technologies, but honestly, just from being in the classroom, students are not as into the technology as they ask into relationship building. It's just like me and you, right? Like if we can use whatever technology that we want, but at the end of the day, we don't have a vibe and I don't develop a connection with you. I think every conversation I have at the moment, and I think regardless of doing it online, we do work in a relationships-based education. Just kind of put me in the corner for technology. What are your kind of go-to tools that you are regularly using today on your phone or on your desktop? That's the thing. And people do that all the time. I literally have people that are gonna pin me down. They're like, what do you use? And I'm like, it really depends on the platform because I'm literally like bare bones when it comes to, I love technology, but when it comes to teaching students, I don't think there's any one technology because when it comes to platforms for us, a lot of times we'll use like a blackboard or we'll use whatever the LMS is, the platform that we use. A lot of times it'll have integrated into it like a collaborate where you use video like this and it has a chat. I'm like, when it comes to students interacting, I don't really think it's necessary about the technology itself. It's about how you utilize, and you could, I tell my students sometimes don't even contact me on the platform. Send me an email or text me. My students love, they could text me at like midnight and I'll respond. Cause I'm like, I'm awake. Why wouldn't I respond, right? And that might not be the same in the K through 12 because obviously it's young kids or whatever the case may be, but the fact of the matter still is, it's all about relationship building. So if you have parents that you're dealing with or students that you are dealing with and you're saying, I have an open door policy and I have the ability to be able to connect with you. When my daughter took classes online, I appreciate it, but the instructors would text me and say, this is where your daughter's at and this is what she's missing. I don't care about the technology. And I think sometimes as educators, we're like, oh, what's the next technology? What can I use? The academic in me, my question was poorly framed, I suppose. Context is what age, what subject, what activity, how long for? So I guess context is key, what works, works in a particular environment. And if I just shift towards diversity, Elizabeth, I just wanna talk about the George Floyd incident that happened, which has rocked and shaped many of us around the world. Can I just ask you for your thoughts on the mood over in the States? It's been really different. That race is a huge issue here in America and the context here is a little bit different than it would be probably elsewhere in the world, but it's an issue all over, I think all over the globe. Here, a lot of people just feel as though we have to kind of rip the covers off of it and it's always something that's kind of like a subtext of race is an issue, but it's very taboo to really talk about it and really put a spotlight on it. And I think for education too, we know that there are a lot of disparities when it comes to race. If we don't talk about those disparities then we're not gonna be able to improve and make it a better environment for our students. We have to have more teachers that are able to relate to the students in the classroom. So the only way to do that is to focus on how do we increase the representation of marginalized students? How do we increase the faculty that look like the students in the classroom? Students are getting more and more diverse here in the States. We went through 2008 with a huge economic decline. So we have less and less students that are from the dominant culture and more of our students are going to be students that are from more diverse backgrounds. So how do we handle that in the classroom and how do we make sure that the faculty and administration and those that the students see are representative of them so that we can be more effective for them? My mind's been ticking over as you've been talking away. Although it's my own memory, I have very few recollections of discussing race probably my entire education until maybe university. And then obviously as a teacher I help my own understanding. And then throughout the last 30 years in the classroom being really good to see, I talk here from a British perspective I suppose, it being a bit more of a prevalent and important discussion in assemblies, lessons, et cetera, et cetera. Where is that in your context, in your college? How often is it just left to maybe anecdotal conversations or is there a specific part of your curriculum where it's consciously discussed in an environment where students learn how to have very healthy discussions on race? It's not discussed and that's really a part of the problem. And that's why people are so frustrated and people have taken to the streets because of the fact that race is something that it's kind of taken as well. It's just like, okay, I'm a woman, I'm black and there's nothing to talk about. And we all know those of us that live in this culture that that's simply not true. And I've seen that in K through 12 as well as in higher ed that it's definitely something that's not talked about. It's not really a part of the curriculum. When I went to university, when I went to University of Florida, I think I had like one African-American studies class and it wasn't required. So it's definitely not something that is a part of the standing curriculum. And like you said, it's something that a lot of times you don't discuss necessarily until you go to college and then it says your choice if it's something that you wanna take a class on that but it will be an elective. So that's a part of what the discussions have been. How do we teach students in K through 12? How are we more responsive in making sure that we address history and accurately address history? We're coming up on Thanksgiving. What do we talk about? What do we talk about indigenous people and their history of this in this country? And typically I worked on the seminal reservation for a few years and that's, I lived right 20 minutes away from the reservation and didn't know anything about that culture because I just wasn't taught that. So there's definitely a lot of work to be done. I apologize. This is probably a big question but what would be your recommendation? And I know in America you're subdivided into states and then there's sub states within states, et cetera but if we could make a start to get racism just put into the curriculum and at least then maybe informed pedagogy, are there any things that you're aware of that's already happening or would you have some recommendations for policymakers? Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of talk and I think a lot of it is grassroots. A lot of it is coming from the students that are demanding now that districts be more responsive. There definitely isn't like a state level curriculum each national curriculum, each state is responsible and then like you said, each county or each school district is responsible for kind of making sure that the curriculum is disseminated to the students. So I think it's gonna really take students and parents being more vocal if the states realize that this is something that is necessary and the students are speaking out and that's what I've seen a lot of groundswell in these grassroots efforts where students are saying, hey, you have to teach us this stuff. We don't know any of this stuff and we wanna make sure that we're aware of what's happening and how to be more responsive to it as students and as future leaders, right? Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure you discuss racism and many other things on your podcast. Could you tell listeners about your ed up experience podcast? Yeah, the ed up experience is a podcast that was started in like January by my co-host Elvin is now the producer and I've stepped into a co-host role with Dr. Joe Saluccio. So it's myself and Joe and we basically have interviewed over the past 10 months, about 100, 114 or so. I think we're at right now, ed tech leaders, college presidents, those are the movers and shakers and innovators in business that are on the pulse, have their fingers on the pulse of education, the workplace and how we can be more responsive as a sector. So we have talked about race, we definitely, especially since George Floyd asking schools how they're being responsive. A lot of the same questions that you asked me well, how do you deal with diversity? What are some of your plans? How have you responded to the Black Lives Matter movement and how can we as a sector be more responsive? So it's definitely something that we're asking leaders because without these conversations then we're not gonna see change. So we wanna just have these conversations, make sure that these conversations are normalized because there has been something that has been a little bit undercover. Like we can't talk about that. We don't wanna keep talking about things and bringing up things that make people uncomfortable. The conversations if they're gonna be uncomfortable have to be had in order to make change. I'm reminded of a podcast I did with Dr. Tina Owen Moore and I believe it's the Alliance Wayne Milwaukee. I understand it was the first bully free school in America and she said then when people take time to understand one another there is less opportunity to do harm. And we mentioned about relationships and us connecting on LinkedIn and yourself and your podcast making that online connection that's led to a podcast. So thinking about online world and kids growing up with technology we'd mentioned earlier. What's your thoughts on the social media, Epoch? Everywhere and everywhere you go it's online, it's quicker, it's faster. You can see virality, videos, all sorts of things. What are your thoughts on this social media revolution that we're living in? I love social media. I'm like a true digital native. I had a MySpace page. I've always been like an early adopter when it comes to technology. That's why I'm not really set on one type of technology because I think technology changes so much that we just have to use whatever, grab whatever you have and bring your own personality to it, right? So I love the idea of utilizing technology and I think that as an adopter of technology that's why I don't invest myself in technology. Like Facebook was like the poppin' thing for like a couple of years, a few years and now it's like people are like, oh, Facebook, only my grandmother's, only my mom is on Facebook. So I don't really get invested in technology. Yeah, it was my space. I might import the Facebook too, if I'm honest. Right, exactly, right? So I don't really get invested in technology because I think at the core of the technology is gonna be the relationship building skill. Like we wanna be making sure that whatever, even if I'm texting you, I'm gonna be able to develop a relationship with you. So I don't wanna get reliant on it, has to be this type of tool that I'm using. Now these digital natives, they're not even using like Facebook, they're using TikTok, they're using, whatever is new, that's what they jump on. And if we get invested, I think for us older people, we tend to say, well, this is the technology they have to have. And then if you don't have it, then what are you gonna do? Cause they're not using Facebook. A lot of them are getting away from Instagram. Are you creating a TikTok account, Elizabeth? Oh, you already know, of course I did. I'm not seeing it, I'm not checking that. So I'm taking it. You gotta check it out. I'm dancing on there and everything. Because you know what? Anything that's new, I will use it. And then when it gets, like I have Snapchat, but when it's not popping anymore, I just stop using it. So I think we have to get in that mindset, just a little bit hipster. I've tried the Snapchat I gave up. I've done about seven videos on TikTok. And my fear is I've spread myself too thin and it becomes a bit of a workload issue. Do you feel the same? I don't know, because you know what? I still have to rely on, like I always have my tried and true. So a lot of those are just more like icing on the cake. Like if I want to connect with my students a lot of times it's like, okay, we have the platform and we can have discussion in there. If you really need to contact me, you can text me. And all that other stuff is just like fun. So it's almost like, I don't really look at it like, I'm spreading myself too thin. It's almost like LinkedIn or IG or any other technology. I'm just using them. It's just like a vehicle. It's not necessarily something that I'm gonna use to the point where it gets overwhelming, you know? Liz, we've passed my 20 minute barrier. Quite some margin when we get lost in our discussions or at my fault really. And so I'm not gonna throw loads of quick fire questions at you and my hope is that I can catch you off guard, but we'll see how it goes. So no pausing and hesitating. So we'll start off easy. If I visited Fort Lauderdale for 24 hours, where would you take me? I would take you to Las Olas. Las Olas is like the downtown Fort Lauderdale. So it's like the place that you go. It's like on the water and there's like bars down there. Can I say that? You might have an adult beverage or two, walk around and it's really laid back. It's not like South Beach, which is super hyper and it's like so much going on. It's a little bit like South Beach 2.0. So that's where I would take you. Okay, thank you. If I deleted all your apps on your phone, which one would you like to keep on it? I would have to see Instagram. I don't care about anything else. Like you could say Facebook. You could say, I should say LinkedIn, but like I use Instagram. I use Instagram like literally every day of my life. Like I cannot almost live without Instagram. So I would have to say Instagram and then maybe LinkedIn would be like my second. Fun memories of the Salvation Army, myself included. What would be, in terms of your experience with the Salvation Army, your recommendations for people that aren't aware of it in terms of the work that they do? I love Salvation Army. It was like one of my first jobs out of college and I love their Angel Tree program. I love the fact that they really focus on at the holidays how to make sure that children are not without. And also they do a lot with addiction and making sure that people have a safe place to go if they are recovering from addiction because that's been stigmatized a lot in society. So they definitely do so much good work with the homeless and so much good work with trying to make sure that they create spaces that are safe. And sometimes people don't really have insurance or don't really have the ability to go out there and get some of those services. So they provide really a safe haven. I love their mission and everything that they do. I'm like a real big fan actually. I was so happy to see that you are affiliated with you about them. Yeah. Are you a Zoom's team or a Google user? I would have to say Team Zoom just because everybody is using it. Like I use Google but not as much. I use Google for other stuff like Drive and for email and for YouTube but I definitely would have to say Zoom would be my go-to for video. Sure. What book are you reading? Right now, jeez. What am I reading? I think the last thing I was reading was The Souls of Black Folk. I'm reading that again by W.E.B. Du Bois. A lot of people have been talking about race and I'm starting to get into e-brom candy, how to be an anti-racist, but I feel as though W.E.B. Du Bois is a foundation of everything when it comes to anti-racism, like the whole idea of double consciousness, the whole idea of how black people feel in America and how they are perceived in America. So I'm actually rereading The Souls of Black Folk right now. One of my favorite books is, I forget your name now, it'll come back to me. Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race? Totally, I believe my mind is really, really powerful but I'll send you the link. Yes, please do. What's on your desk today? What's your current project? Wow. Right now on my project, on my desk is I'm just looking at different projects for the podcast. So different ways that we can kind of expand our reach. My biggest project that I'm working on for our podcast is working on the YouTube channel. So looking at ways that I can increase our diversity as far as talking to black leaders in the community and how to be more responsive with just not educating about higher education, but about topics surrounding race, anti-racism, social justice and things of that nature as well. Right, well, I've got plenty of voices I can signposted to here in the UK if you need to take- Absolutely. Black voices. And now I'm going to assume you're doing the best job in the world already, but what would be your off-the-wall career that you dreamed of but never did? Oh my gosh, what's an off-the-wall? I don't know, I don't think anything is off-the-wall but if there was something that I probably would have wanted to do- I don't know if I'm going to be crazy or a that deep sea doctor or a tea. I probably would want to be like an actress or something. Like I would want to like actually go and just like be a movie star and just like, I honestly feel like the other day I said that I was like, you know what? If I really would have done it again, I probably would have went to school for drama or something because I'm just like a drama queen anyway and I love to like hammer it up for the camera. So probably actress- One lockdown ends. Where do you want to be your next vacation? My next vacation, I probably want to go to the Caribbean. I'm like really aching to take my husband and go to Jamaica and MC like my family's like origin and where we are from. So yeah, probably Jamaica. Great. Biggest career achievement today? Top voices, just like you. Top voices, fantastic. Who can I interview next and why? Oh wow. Who can you interview? I mean, I think anybody on top voices would be good. Doug Liederman. I'm trying to get through the top 10 list. Yeah. I've been picking earlier today. So it's yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Doug Liederman was really interesting. We had him on the podcast early like in March or so. The founder of Inside Hair Education. He left from Chronicle Education and went and founded Inside Hair Education. So he would be a good pick, I think. Right. Well, I work my way through it. Yeah, for sure. We can listen to find out more about you, your links, your podcasts, working together. Yeah. We can go to edupexperience.com. That's where they can find my podcast. I also have a YouTube channel where I am the host of that particular venue where we talk about platform and we talk about race and issues surrounding the black community. So they can hit me up on either one of those. We have an Instagram. Obviously, they can also just look for me, search for my name on LinkedIn. Your Instagram as well. That's right. Yeah, definitely. I love social media. I love connecting. I love meeting new people. I'm glad I got a chance to meet you. This is all about relationships and connecting. Like you said, it's the keyword, the buzzword right now. So yeah. My final question, Liz, is what would you hope to be your legacy? If I can have a legacy, I think that it has become the idea. It has always been educating and making sure that I provide a better way for it for my students, but also in terms of race in America, helping to raise my voice to help people to understand how we need to come together to make this country a better place. And a lot of that has to do with inequity and how we can adjust and make changes and grow and evolve from where we are and be better. That's really the bottom line. How can we be better? How can we move forward? How can we make sure America as a country is fair for everybody? And I would want that to be my legacy. That would be a great thing to achieve. Elizabeth Lyber, thank you very much. It's been great to connect and start our relationship through LinkedIn Voices and connecting with you. We work quite quick, I think, to be fair. Earlier a week or so ago, we connected. So I hope it's the beginning of something that we can connect and share content regularly. I hope so. Elizabeth, thank you very much for your time. Keep up the good work. To chat on your podcast and listen to more of the content over there. Absolutely. And it's awesome to come and visit you in Fort Lauderdale. Come on down. You can come. The open invitation is there for you. Brilliant. All right, well, let's go to that bar. Yeah, for sure, right? Thanks, Elizabeth. Thank you. Take care.