 Okay, we're, we're live. This is the April 26th meeting of the disability access advisory committee. In Amherst. And present at the meeting are Elise link. Marty Smith, Sarah and Darren, and me, Myra Ross and Maureen Pollock, who is the town. I don't know if anyone else is here. We have Marty, sorry, did you, I was multitasking. So Marty Smith, Elise link and Sarah and Darren are here. I don't know if you already said that. And then we have some guests here. We have Guilford mooring our DPW superintendent. And we have Jane walled of the Emily Dickinson museum. I believe she's the executive director. And let me pull up the agenda because I can't recall who's going first. Sorry, are you there? Yeah. All right. I had, I don't know what to do when you get a phone call in the middle of the zoom when the phone is sitting right next to you. Okay. All done. So the first level that you said there were other people here. Yeah, Guilford boring is here from our DPW and Jane walled. The executive director of the Emily Dickinson museum. Okay. So the first thing we, does anyone have any announcements? Elise, did you attend. The demonstration. I wanted very badly too, but I was not able to get there. Okay. Okay. So. Mayor, do you want to mention what the, what, what demonstrate, can you. There was a disability advocacy demonstration in North Hampton. Oh, on Saturday, I was in New York. I don't know where. Elise was the only person who thought she might be available. But you know, people with disabilities have trouble getting places. So. Yeah, I attended. You did. I did. Yeah. It was really well attended. I attended part of it. I didn't, they did a parade. I think from the train station in North Hampton to Pulaski park in downtown North Hampton. So I, I didn't. And they were escorted from the, with the assistance of the police. For the route. And then they had a rally at Pulaski park. And it included various speakers and they had music at the end from local musicians. And it was really well attended. I would, my guesstimate was probably at least a couple of hundred people. For there. And I believe the first speaker was. I believe she, she mentioned she was the chair. Of the disability committee in Holyoke. And they had various other speakers. Something with different perspectives or in just different disabilities. And so. Yeah, it was, you know, a gathering about promoting, you know, disability rights, you know, it's, it's the law. It promotes. You know, diversity, equity, inclusion, and it's. It promotes good urban design. So it's, it's really a three fold of why disability rights in designing for that and, you know, fixing problems when they arise are really important. And they had some really good examples of. That the North Hampton disability committee had noticed issues with particular restaurants or businesses in downtown North Hampton. And they approached a few of them and had really good success stories of the, you know, the particular coffee shop just, you know, was naive and didn't realize something that they were weren't doing properly. And they, you know, quickly alleviated the problem. I feel like they, it was like familiar coffee shop. It's on strong street. And they were providing like curbside pickup and they have two entrances. And I believe both of them weren't ADA accessible. And so the disability committee was saying, Hey, that's not right. And so they were able to make one of the entrances. And it was like ADA accessible. And it was, and I, it was like a nice success story. It was like the story you want to hear is that the business owner is like, Oh, whoops, sorry, we never thought of that. Yes, we're happy to work with you. And, and then, you know, they got into some stories of, you know, businesses that just don't necessarily are willing to have, you know, conversations or to talk to each other. And so, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the, the, the, the, the, the improvements were needed. So, but it was a very positive rally and. And I felt very inspired. As an ally. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for going. Thanks for telling us about it. And did anyone on this committee know about it in advance? Of the, of the announcement. Somebody said, I didn't know until a couple of days before. I didn't either. There, there was a nice article in the Gazette with pictures and everything. It was like a, almost like a. In two pages. So it was very detailed. That's nice. Wish that our committee had been notified about it. I did actually put it in my email last week, but I guess it was. No, you did put it last week. I mean, they obviously planned it. I mean, they obviously planned it. They set it up. They have speakers. They had presenters. I mean, this didn't happen spontaneously. And somehow didn't get to this side of the river. So I think that's an interesting question. Well, it was very North Hampton centric. It was for the community of North Hampton. It wasn't really sort of for the. You know, for the, like the whole Valley. It was very specific to the city of North Hampton. Not that, you know, non North Hampton residents were invited, but. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, it's a. It was very nice. Thank you for going. I was in New York. Yeah, it's a good start. Yeah. So actually. Since you've mentioned it this way, Maureen. When you mentioned it as part of diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm wondering if we should have an agenda item. That invites the director. Yeah, that sounds like great plan. I believe that person hasn't been. Hired yet. And I've been seeing a lot of interviews. Here in town hall. I, so I don't really know the status of that yet. But yeah, once that person is hired, absolutely. They should be invited to one of these meetings. Okay, cool. Excellent. Thank you for going. So the next item is public comment. Is there anybody here to make a public comment? No, just the, just the two applicants, Guilford and Jane are the only ones here today. All right. And we can move on. To. The evergreens is the first one, right? Yep. So Jane, I'm going to make you a, a panelist. So you'll switch over in one second. And Jane, before you, wait, she can't hear you at this. Oh, she can't. Oh, now she can. She was just switching over. Sorry. Okay. So before you make your presentation, the written material that you sent had a lot of diagrams. And at least I wasn't able to tell what the variance request was. I wasn't able to tell what you have been working on thus far. But so if you can really pinpoint what the issues are and don't assume that we've all been able to read it, that would be really good. Nope. So welcome to our meeting. The evergreens is a really cool place. It was owned by Austin Dickinson, right? And his. His wife. Well, yes. And then he took up with Mabel Loomis talk. Right. Okay. Yes. Thank you. It's a very storied place. As you. As you mentioned. So thank you for allowing us to, to come and explain our, our project and the variances that we're requesting. I do have some slides to illustrate some of the points, but there's really nothing in the slides that I'm not going to explain. During my remarks. So would you. I can keep the slides off until I get to the point where I, where something should be illustrated. Do people want to see the slides? I'm the only one who can't read them. So I mean, people might want to read them. I don't know. Yeah, pull them up. Yeah, I think you can put them up. All right. Okay. And is that clear? Is that. At a size that's. Sure. Why don't you, could you do it? The presentation. I love. Yeah. Okay. Well, so I'm here today because, you know, we've been, we've come to you before for a large project a few years ago, and the variances that were approved at that time, this is back in 2016, they're expiring because the value of a pending project exceeds 30% of the assessed value of the property. And essentially we're asking for continuation of the previously approved variances and don't have, don't really have anything new in them. In February, 2016, this committee offered its support for the museum's variance requests, saying that this is a quote from what you approved. And they've made reasonable accommodations while trying to preserve the historic significance of the structures. And that's really, it's the same thing that we're trying to preserve the historic significance and want to. Just explain again, what those are. So I'll give you sort of an overview of the museum property, sort of physical setting. The project for bringing to you. The specific request for variances, there are at least six of them. And just a kind of a summary of our existing and pending ADA improvements. So the Emily Dickinson Museum property is comprised as I'm sure you know of two historic houses connected to the Dickinson family, the homestead and the evergreens. The current project is proposed specifically for the evergreens. And that property has a number of historic designations. In 1977, it was made a contributing property in a national register historic district. In 1982 on the state register of historic places. Then in two different times, 1996 and 2007. Entered a preservation restriction with the Massachusetts Historical Commission. And in 2012, it became a contributing property. In the Dickinson local historic district. So the, the Emily Dickinson Museum has developed a plan to improve the environmental conditions at necessary to preserve. What is really an extensive Dickinson family collection. Most of which is stored at the evergreens. The, the collections environment or the kind of quality of the atmosphere within the house. Over these, you know, 150 years and more. Without, without adequate ventilation or, or distribution of both heating and cooling has created an environment that is actively. Adverse to the preservation of fine collections items such as a good example is that the Dickinson, the Dickinson, Austin and Susan Dickinson at the evergreens. Collected at quite a number of oil paintings and those are probably some of the most sensitive. Materials. That needs to be in a controlled environment and they just have suffered over the years. So this project includes both non mechanical work, which is mostly. Carpentry and architectural alterations. And then, as well as mechanical and electrical upgrades. So mostly an upgrade to the heating ventilation and cooling system. So these improvements, the goal is to decrease moisture infiltration specifically to inhibit water intrusion. In areas such as a, a bulk head. To improve thermal and ultraviolet barriers and ultimately to stabilize the interior environment. At the evergreens. So the. So they'll just kind of briefly summarize the, the components of this project. The first is to reconstruct an area away foundation wall. The, and the entrance steps and plank doors to. To the seller. So this construction right now, the, the, the stone walls that create that foundation structure for the steps that lead down into the seller are porous. And they need to be rebuilt and, and water sealed. This area away, this. This area under the bulkhead acts a little bit as a stream. When, when there's been a lot of wet weather or rainy weather and just water kind of pours down into the seller. So that's, that's one of the work items. I mentioned membrane water proofing and subsurface drainage in this very, in this same area. There's a very complicated set of roof lines that come together. In a very constricted area. And so the water, the runoff water from the roofs. Is, is very concentrated. And so more water proofing and subsurface drainage will help to alleviate that problem. Can I interrupt. I'm fascinated by all the historic preservation, but I'm not sure what you're looking for. In the interest of time, because we have other agenda items, can you get to the, to the questions that might have something to do with this board that have to do with. The accessibility issues. Cause I mean, I'm sure we all want you to fix the roof. And I'm sure none of us have an objection to climate controlling the inside of the building, but I'm not really sure what you're looking for. Yeah, so I'll get right to that. So the, the variance request. So we've submitted a already submitted our. Application to the Massachusetts architectural advisory board. And there are six variances that we are seeking to continue. One is section 25. And the other is section 25. Concerning entrances. So our request is that a variance be granted. To be relieved of the requirement to provide. An accessible entrance at the main front door on the south elevation. So this relief is requested. Owing to the preservation of the main entrance, exterior fabric and the structure as it. The, the main entrance. It's not uniformly used for public tours or programs. There is. There is now an acceptable. Approach on an accessible path. So the alternative accommodation. That we propose is that the existing accessible ramp. On the east elevation, which is used by all visitors and staff to the building shall be maintained. The existing accessible ramp. Is approached from a newly built. Accessible path installed between the evergreens and the homestead. That connects the two properties on a compacted. Organic block surface that provides a. For the first time now provides a. A steady reliable. And firm surface for. For pedestrians and wheelchairs. The second variance is concerns. Signage. And that request is that a variance be granted to be relieved of the requirements to provide. The existing accessible ramp. And we're asking for this because. Because of our goal to. Present the historic landscape as it was during the Dickinson family. Period. So the, what we propose as an alternative accommodation is that it should be escorted by a guide led docent led tour. And brought to the access ramp and rear. Entrance where visitors. Typically enter the evergreens. The third request is concerns handrail height. In for the main staircase, the original staircase is. The main hallway and it's still furnished as it was at the end of the 19th century. So that includes its original wallpapers. Works of art that. Line the wall up the staircase. And the furnishings for that hall. The addition of an ADA compliant handrail on the wall would. Significantly disrupt the historic character of that kind of unusual preserved interior. The, we know that that hallway was last decorated with that wallpaper in 1892. So that gives that, that whole environment a kind of distinctive, you know, 125 year old atmosphere that we hope to conserve and stay in. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to be very, very stabilized and conserve. Is there an open banister on the other side? Or the walls on both sides. There is a banister on the outside of the staircase. So it's open staircase on one side. Open staircase on one side. That's right. Okay. The. I'm sorry. Were you going to. No, I just wanted to know what it looked like. Okay. All right. So if, so on the wall side, if we were to install an ADA compliant height of 34 to 38 inches, that wall would. It would disrupt the. The artworks that have been in, in those places since 1930. And then the installation of a handrail would also will be. Impeded by a door to as you get up to the, to the first landing on that staircase. That leads into a backhaul. That would constrict the entrance into the backhaul. So our eternal proposal for an alternative, alternative accommodation. Is to, so should, if the absence of an ADA compliant handrail were to pose any kind of difficulty or barrier to a visitor. So that could include. The interpretation of the second floor, historic space would be accomplished on the first floor through a means appropriate to the needs of the visitor. So that could include. Printed or visual materials. We also have an iPad accessible virtual tour. And we have quite a number of. Illustrated essays on our, on our website. And we also have a lot of information about the, about the second floor experience. And though, and there are guides. The guide who is leading the tour is usually accompanied by a, an assistant who can remain with visitors. And, and give in-person explanations, answer questions. If, if. Certain individuals can't. Go up to the second floor. And then the fifth. Yes. The fifth variance request concerns and elevator. And it is requested that a variance be granted to the requirement to provide. A vertical access elevator within the evergreens. For access to the second floor. There's not, there's not a space within the house that, where an elevator can be inserted. Without significantly disrupting its historic. Fabric and character. If a, the, the building itself is. Is not a large building so that. If, and if some kind of exterior structure were added. Then the unique state of preservation of the, of the evergreens itself would be compromised. So as an alternative, the first floor of the evergreens is accessible to all visitors on those guide led tours. Museum staff. Assist visitors needing. Assistance with interpretation. And with an experience of areas that they are not physically. Or visually or orally able to access. Interpretation of the second floor historic places, spaces takes place on the first floor via again, via in-person staff interpretation. And iPad accessed virtual tour. And the, the information available on our website. That can be, can also be accessed. Right, right on site. The, our public programs, we hold. Public programs other than the house tours that go to the second floors, all of those programs are held in fully accessible space. And then the, the last variance request has to do with a public toilet room and a drinking fountain. So we're asking that a variance be granted to the requirement. To provide an accessible toilet and drinking fountain within the evergreens. And this is because they, they do not currently exist. And we. We're asking for this relief because of the preservation of the historic materials that they, that they are able to remain in. So the alternative there is a fully accessible unisex toilet room. And a water cooler that are provided by the museum. At the tour center located at the homestead. So that's, those are the variance. Requests. I think, you know what, there, maybe just four more things I might say, and that is that. You know, I think it's important to maintain the accessible exterior ramp and entrance door located on the north elevation as, as been, as it has been functioning for these, these several years. Print and video with alt text and personal interpretation of the second floor spaces. For visitors who can't send the stairs will be maintained. The toilet room and the water cooler and the homesteads tour center. And there will be expanded, expanded, accessible exterior parking at the homestead, a loading zone and signage at the, at the homestead. So that's, that's our, a summary of our request. And if you have other questions, please let me, I'm happy to answer you. That was very thorough. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I don't really have any questions for comments. Marty's raising your hand. Yes. I just want to sort of recap this in a different way. As I understand it, this application is required because you're doing. More than 30% of the value of the building and doing these. Infrastructure projects, because that's what they really are. So, that's why this is required. These variances have already been. Approved once before. And we, you have to come back because if you exceed 30%, you then have to bring the entire building up to code. And as an architect, in my mind, the footprint of the building is too small to even begin to address. Those issues, but because this is an infrastructure project and not a renovation project. That affects. The architecture. I make a motion that we approve this variance. Is there a second. No, I have questions. If you don't mind. Can I ask first place? Well, it's a, someone makes a motion. Someone seconds it. And then no. And then you have a discussion. There's no second. Oh, oh, oh. So. I think the motion is premature. That's all I'm trying to say. So. Yeah. Okay. Um, um, Sarah. Okay. So the first question. Is on the. Sign. No. Direction sign. So this is going to. The accessibility signage. Is that what you're asking? Is that what you? I don't know. Is there any way we can see what those, the list of the. Wave variance request is. Again. I think it was. Okay. So the first question is on the. Signage to the direction of the accessible. Entrance of the building. Is that right? Yes. So what is the, what is the reason for requesting that? Uh, the root, the root. Well, the reason. Let me, um, maybe I'll keep this picture here for just a moment. This excess, this path. Has been newly constructed as an accessible path between the homestead and the evergreens. Um, as it appeared. Uh, in period photographs. The difference is of course that it's, um, you know, it's a, it's a. A path with a. Significant foundation and drainage. So it's really. It's to serve visitors to move from one house to the other. And, um, here at the end of the path, this is the accessible entrance. So the route from the homestead to the evergreens leads directly to that accessible entrance where all, all visitors will go. Um, the approach to the evergreens. Um, the, the landscape. Um, the natural world and landscape is, um, kind of a significant component of the Emily Dickinson museum's interpretation of, um, the family's life, uh, on this property between these two houses in the 19th century. And, um, we're, um, we're hoping we'd prefer to keep the amount of signage kind of. Keep the amount of signage, um, down so that we're not interfering with that, uh, with that natural and cultivated landscape. Yeah. That was. Do you, do you look into. The inconvenience that this might create. The people with mobility impairments, because I remember you saying there'll be staff positive people that are available to assist anyone or show directions. And I personally am a woman with a disability mobility impairment. And I know those things. How difficult is to find somebody who can even answer the question. Or who knows what you're talking about. So, uh, I strongly have strong feelings about that. The signage. It could be painted in just, uh, in nice in colors that, uh, matches with the background. I'm sure architects and, uh, have more, uh, information on it, but it's a major issue. Another thing also was the handrails inside the ramp, but I couldn't quite understand where is this ramp located that you need the handrails. Um, so let's see the, I think it's the next, the next one in that. Variance. I think Sarah is for the staircase going to the second floor. They don't want a hand, they don't want a handrail on the wall side because it interferes with the, with the actual art on the wall. So like if there is an old person. Trying to get a little support. Or somebody with MS or something or. Right. They would have to go on one side only. I mean, you could clear that. Staircase so somebody could get up or down on the exterior banister side, but there wouldn't be any way to have two way traffic. If somebody needed to go the opposite way. May I ask what side of the wall on the, what side the handrail will be on the one that's existing? It is on the right as, as you ascend the stairs. Okay. So I may, if I may try to answer a couple of the questions raised. The, to your question about how to find the accessible entrance. All of our tours. Are led by a guide. So that. Anyone in a tour group will be personally escorted. Across this path. To the, to the accessible entrance. So you're saying a person cannot go directly to the evergreens. No matter whether they're completely able bodied or disabled. That everything. That is correct. Okay. Because there used to be. So. Okay. Yeah. So I guess what she's saying is the gateway is the other house. And nobody can approach. That was actually my question. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what anybody can approach. That was actually my question. It was a programmatic question, which is, does everybody need to have an appointment? Does everybody need to filter through the same. Set up. And I guess what you're saying is. You can't just show up. You have to have an appointment. And you have to filter through the homestead. That's correct. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. It is possible to come to the homestead now. Without an appointment and find a place on a tour as space is available. But no one. Can enter and tour the houses without. Without going through. You know, the central tour center. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have the right to go in on their own. So it doesn't matter where the asset, the accessible entrance, whether it's marked or not. Cause no one has the right to go in. Without no, you know, without. Accompaniment. Like if you could walk in off the street, Sarah would have, I would support. What she's saying totally. Because if you can walk in off the street, you need to have signage, but if you're not allowed to walk in off the street. So that is a, for the time being the rules, the. The society will set might be different. So maybe it is not open to people. Maybe maybe somebody came for an event and they said, Oh, what the heck? Let's go and make a visit. And let's see where Emily Dickinson lived there and things like that. You know, I want to make it open to anyone, you know, like if you pay a certain amount of money to visit, make a visit or something like that, you know, but limiting the number of people in the building at some point, it might come to that at some point. You know, and I think it should, it shouldn't only like making appointments. Not many people can when they're visiting, you know, they're not coming to say for a wedding out of town. And they say, you know, they, they wouldn't know what they're going to do. They walk around and then they discover, oh, this is a good thing for us to go and see if we can get an NC, where she lived, you know, that kind of thing. So it kind of eliminates those people from. Visiting the site. So. You raised your hand. Yeah, I did have one thing to say. And to ask, it appears from the photograph that the only pathway from the main building to the evergreens is this path. I don't see a path to the original house front door. I don't see any other path. There is no, and my, am I correct? There is a. There is a front walkway that is directly. That leads from the front door down to main street. And that leads down to. Flights of steps. So the way we're wanting the site to, to operate, to work is for. People in vehicles. People who need an accessible route to the evergreens. If they're in pedestrians or vehicles. To come to the homestead, which has a less steep incline. There's accessible parking right at the homestead. And then this is the only path from the homestead to the evergreens. And it is a way to manage. To get around the two flights of stone steps that lead directly from main street to the evergreens. Do you allow people to enter. From main street. The purpose of this past is to. To it is to. Eliminate as much as possible. The need for a docent led tour to take people down to main street across the evergreens on the public sidewalk. And then up the front walk. Which is not an accessible. Path to the evergreens. So we want to minimize. The difficulty that that front walkway. Is that a flat surface of flat and accessible route. I understand that, but do you allow the public to enter the site. From that. Walkway was steps. We do not prohibit. Access to the grounds. People. People may. Walk on to the property. From. From that main street gate. We do enter the house. They do not enter the house without a guide. So the front door is locked. That's correct. I would suggest. I'd like to suggest that you consider closing that entrance to the site. And have everyone who comes to the site. Go to the main entrance. That way. This becomes a moot point. I think it's a good idea. Yes, I. She's right. I think it's a good idea. And that way, you know, class citizens. You have to have every, everyone has to have equal access to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if people want to get onto the grounds, they can go in through the homestead and they can walk on to the path and they can deviate from the path onto the grass. Okay. So that everyone is using the same entrance, whether it's open or not. If you're allowing the general public to go on the grounds. You still need to have. It still needs to be accessible. Correct. Everyone should be, you have the same experience. Okay. Okay. So that's. That's a very important thing. Now, I want to say I wasn't on this committee in 2016. The only one here who was was sarin. But since that date, Emily Dickinson homestead has come with a presentation and we gave a variety of suggestions for accessibility, many of which you have included in the presentation that you made, you know, the public accessibility and stuff like that. And it would seem to me that since it's all part and parcel of the same experience or really the same, you know, the Dickinson homestead tours, people could go on one of them or both of them. That we incorporate the statements that we made about accessibility from the Emily Dickinson house presentation that you mentioned earlier. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point because I thought we had a very good discussion. I thought we were all very pleased with the outcome. Of that presentation. I don't know if you remember it, sarin Elise. I don't think you were here at the time Marty. Yes, I was. Very first ones I attended. Ah, okay. Cool. Yeah. I remember it. I remember. I thought, you know, this is all the same thing. It's just a different. I agree with you. Okay. The way it works is each structure is uniquely separate. Oh yeah. I mean structural for sure, but programmatic. I have made a lot of programmatic. That they consider each building separately. Okay. Well, you start selling more about it than I do. But I think Marty's suggestion about access to the property. Is correct. And that way we don't need accessibility signage. So that we wouldn't have to have any, you know, Discussion about that. I guess the stairwell. Handrail. I don't know what could be done. I mean the handrails going to the second floor on the, I guess what you're saying is that it's. It's something that would. Not only interfere with the character, but it would interfere with the wallpaper, which is historic. And so I don't know the rules about that. Marty, what do you know about that? Well, a couple of things. One is that stairwell is too narrow for two people to even pass. Okay. So it's a moot point. Okay. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point in my mind, because you as you go up, you'll grab the handrail on your right side as you go down. You'll use your left hand. Okay. When you have a really wide staircase, you do need to rails. I mean, if this was a six foot wide staircase, I'd say, yeah, we're going to have to do that. But it would be also very difficult to do something that was in the way. And this is just such a small building. Yep. And I just, I can't imagine wanting to do that. And this is a standard request for historic buildings. This is, I mean, I've been in a lot of them. And you never see the second handrail because it just reduces, it destroys a character, the visual character. And again, the staircase is a residential size staircase. It's not a public staircase. This was a home. Yeah, it's just a, it's just a small. Yeah, it's a very, I mean, I've been up there. I've been up there. It's what's really cool about that place is all the furniture that Susan Dickinson ever owned is still there because she never did anything away. So it's all pushed up against the wall. And the new stuff she bought is in front of it. And I think what I would love to see is a wait for people like me to get a sense of the changes. Like if you had gloves and I was able to touch the furniture that she's got stuffed up against the wall. And then how, how, how it all changed over time. That would be really, really cool. She's got a lot of furniture in there. Were you going to say something. Oh, just about the furniture. I once counted that there were, there was a lot of furniture in there. She had enough chairs and sofas and so forth. 100 people. So in the interest of time. Yeah. No, do you want to amend your motion, Marty? Sure. I'll amend the motion to approve. Our. Grant approval for this. For the variances. With the concept of the. Museum. Close the entrance from main street and have all people entering the site come through the main entrance. The main accessible entrance. I have one question. Yeah. I'm sorry to, to postpone this. Given that there's only one entrance and one exit. It's not out of the building. It's not out of the building. It's out of the site. Oh, okay. It's not out of the building. Thank you. She's closing the front gate to the. The walkway. That there is a gate. And she doesn't want some people to be able to enter through there. And the other people who can't. Go up the steps to have to go a different way. Okay, sorry. I couldn't visually picture that. Thank you. We have a second. Yes. I'll second it. All right. So is there any further discussion? So we, the motion is to approve all this one, two, three, four, five, six of them in one package. Right. Approve them all. Yes. Well, to approve the variances. But to also close the, you know, so it's yes, approve and to close the main gate. So that everyone has to go through the homestead accessible entrance. They sort of go together to make it. An accessible project. Can we do a roll call? Yeah. Yeah. Elise. Yes or no. Oh God. Yeah, I'll say yes. Do you have a, well, I get a voting, but Sarah. I'm abstaining. Cause there are still some things in my mind that doesn't satisfy my. The way I look at this. Okay. I would Marty. Yes. I'm inclined to vote yes, but I'm really. Concerned that two people are not voting yes. Because. It seems to me that they've done the best that they can. With programmatic access, but I don't know. I don't know. Is there anything that can make you change to a yes, either Elise or. Or a seven. No, I'm going to change my to yes, because the problem I would have with that stairwell is a personal problem that just pertains to me. And then I'm going to vote yes. And I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes. What I have with that stairwell is a personal problem that just pertains to me. And people with guide dogs and that I just, I want to say yes. And just not, you know, I say yes. Okay, Sarah. Is there. What happens if I stay is still abstain. That's fine. You could abstain. I just wondered if there was anything that could make you. You know, with the, with the inappropriate, inappropriate look of signage. I'm not convinced on that. So. That's why I still want to abstain. Yeah. But you know, that's a simple thing to fix that's on further time. What's, you know, how the, to enforce the ADA, right? You have to sue. That's the only way. I'm not saying that as a joke. That is the way the ADA is written. So someone in some form or time in future time would have to make a complaint. And that would be the way that try to negotiate it first, but that's not a big change. It's not a structural change. I'm going to vote yes. So I guess the motion carries three to one abstention. And I do mean it about the box of gloves to touch that because that's an accessibility issue for people who don't see well. Yes. That is such. That's really an amazing. Aspect of that house. You know, it has to do with who Susan Dickinson was, but it also has to do with the fact that we get to see a lot of historical furniture and those of us who can't see it. Need to touch it. So you really need to have gloves. And you need to make it possible for people to, you know, visually impaired people to touch the furniture. And I don't know how to put that in there. Okay. That's a good. Thank you. That's a very good idea. We are. We're, we're, as you probably know, doing a restoration project at the homestead right now. And we will be. Opening that building with kind of newly. Decorated configured spaces and. That I think. And the evergreens will remain closed while we do this project, but I think the opening of the homestead gives us a perfect opportunity to. To implement. Kind of please touch with. Thank you so much. I mean, I've been so many places where they don't let you touch it, but it's not. It's just like a landscape. It's just like a landscape of sculpture. And I'm like, oh, man, give me outdoor sculpture. So it's not like nobody ever touches it. Cause the weather's on it all the time. Thank you so much, Jane, for attending. We need to move on to the next. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Guilford. Are you here still? He is. Making him a panelist. So they'll just take a minute. I'll be right back. where you are. Are you at 75% now? We're pretty much at 75, not 80%. Okay, so. You have me. Again, the pictures. There wasn't a lot of text. It was all pictures. So I really have no idea what you said. Let me hold on. I'm just adjusting after I turned you guys all down when you were in the other meeting. Sorry. Okay. Okay, I can share. Let me share this with you. All right. This is the basic layout for the roundabout. Let's see. The centered well enough. That's, I can make it larger if I need to. That would be helpful. It's hard to read. We'll start the south end down by Mission Cantina that I'll make it there. So there's actually going to be five crosswalks in this project. Not just the floor around the roundabout. So what you're looking at now is the south end of the roundabout. So you're approaching from Atkins corner. You'll come up in the islands and they'll be the roundabout across West. West street here. There are. There's a little notes here. There are two proposed RFPs. At this center at this crossing. So when you walk up to it, you'll hear it beeping. Draw your attention to the rapid rectangular flashing beacon. You'll be able to push the button. The beacon will when it turns starts flashing, it'll say the lights are flashing. You can. Actually it just says the lights are flashing. It doesn't say whether you can proceed or not because there's a lot of traffic. It doesn't say whether you can. Stop control with it. It's up to the. That's just the way that these beacons work. So. Right here. It's right in this area. I can't see it, but whatever. Sorry. Go on. The lights are flashing. You are crossing West street. Or does it? Yes. It can say. It can say their lights are flashing. You're crossing West street. You're crossing West street. You're crossing West street. That's what it needs to say. Okay. So how far from the end of the roundabout is that? It's actually like one and a half car links. So it's about 30 feet. Oh, so actually when the cars, before they really speed up. After they left the roundabout. That's sort of where it is. I don't know. I don't know. No, they won't. Okay. Okay. Cool. Thank you. And. So then. That's the South one. The two on West. Well, one's on West Pomeroy. One's on Pomeroy. They're set the exact same way. There is the round, the RR, our RFPs at. Both sides. You can push them. They'll be, they'll be beeping at you as well. There's about 30 feet between the roundabout and the crosswalk. And then the north side of West street. The same. The crosswalk we added are actually while we're here. There is no diversion. There is really no diversion in the island, the center island. It's just lined up straight across. What is that? There are tactile pavers. There's no diversion. There's no diversion. There's no diversion in the island. So when you're walking across the street, you'll leave one set of tactile pavers across the road. You'll hit another one, which means you've come to the other side. And then there'll be another set of tactile pavers before you actually venture into the next travel lane. So you'll know. Can I go back when you said no diversion. You mean it's a straight line. It's a straight line. That's what that means. Okay. Yes. So essentially, if you're walking, you're going to be. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. You're going to cross the street. And you'll know you're on the island because there are going to be. The little domes. But you don't have to deviate from your direction. Correct. Okay. People had talked about the fact that they would like to go up to the island and then make a right turn or left turn and go down a little bit more than cross again. Okay. So you can cross through the island and you can cross anywhere around the island. Yes. Okay. Then then the north side of the roundabout set the exact same way on each side, you have an RFP. And then you can cross. You can cross the roundabout and then you can cross the road. And then you can cross. The audio of the ones that tell you it's there. And then tells you when the path you can cross and what you're crossing. And then we actually put in a second crosswalk. Down by the bus stop. In the moan and dove. We make it a little bigger. And that is north. Of the. This is north of the intersection. So if you're coming from Mackinj, station was on your right. There's a new bus stop and pull off on the right. And there's new bus stop and pull off on the left. But then you can walk forward, you can walk north, and then cross over to go towards the USDA facility or Amherst gymnastics or that that facility there will be a crosswalk there. So it's about 300 400 feet away from the intersection. So that people on the go using the bus system don't have to walk so far to go back and forth to the two of the apartments that are in the area. Nice. And that's the basic layout sidewalks sidewalks are at least five feet wide. There's a bike share station for people who want to get to the bike share station. There's a sidewalk to that. New bus shelters. That's about I mean that's the basics of what we have for walking and crossing the travel lanes right now. Any questions? Yeah, Myra. Yeah, I know you're concerned about the separation of bikes and pedestrians. And they've done a real nice job of that the bikes are on the road level and the pedestrians are on the curb side. Good. Thank you. I know that's a major concern for you and me and Elise. Yep. Well, and anybody who doesn't want to compete with 25 mile an hour electric bikes. I have a question. Did you talked about a gift for you talked about blinking lights? Do we press the light to go off when we're attempting to cross the walkway through the walkway? Yes, you'll hear a you'll hear the beeping sound, which will tell you where the light button is. And then yes, you can press the button and then the lights will come on and you can cross. Oh, I like that. So the location of the light posts. Are they in the same place? So when you approach from any point? Are you going to find the button on the right side of the pathway? So if you're going forward, the button will be on your right. You know, like no matter which direction you're going, the beacon button, the pole will be on in a constant place, or you're going to have to sort of bang around with your cane to try to find it. The button will be facing the direction that you'll be walking the direction of the path. So some of the poles are on the side of the sidewalk. So you'll walk in front of them and they'll be off to your right if you're heading south and they'll be off to your left if you're heading north on that sidewalk. And there's a few poles that are actually at the end of the sidewalks. So that when you get to the end of the sidewalk, the pole is at that end and you push the button and you can cross. Marty, I can't see it, but does it look to you like there's any consistency to it that somebody would? I think there is. Guilford, can you go back to the roundabout, please? I just want to verify that. Myra, they're on the, oh, they're not consistent. No, it would be best Guilford if they could be on the outer edge of the sidewalk if they're consistent. So the one by mission cantina, if it were on the outer edge of that sidewalk, it was just across the sidewalk, then they would all be consistent that they were on the outer edge of the sidewalk because most of them are. There's only two that aren't. The one by, across from the gas station isn't. But if you could move it to the other side of that sidewalk, then they'd all be consistent on the outer edge. Does that make sense? It should be pretty close to the street so that after you push the button, you don't have to walk 10 feet to find where to cross because you want to know that, you know, you want to have a sense of when you're going to be able to cross. So here's the button. I pushed it. I can line myself up with where the street is and I can cross it without having to walk far to get there. It would be the width of the sidewalk you'd have to walk. To make them consistent because of the situation that they have across from mission cantina, the sidewalk butts up to the curb. There's no place. You can't put it right. Yeah. And there's a couple of other locations that you can't put it inboard. So would it be better to have them all outboard or they're a mix right now just because of the conditions? Can you describe what inboard and outboard mean? Well, inboard would be on the roadside of the sidewalk. Outboard would be on the outside edge of the sidewalk. Well, it would seem to me that there is a standard that has been developed by people who know this stuff better than I do professionals in the field, which is why I wanted you to have a consultant to figure out where those lights should be placed so that people can expect to find them there based on a standard. And I don't know how you feel about it. At least you can probably see where the pole is. But no, I can't really on this thing. But I mean when you're walking, you can usually see it, right? When I'm walking, yeah, if it's clear, I can usually see it. I'm going to also teach my guide dog where to find those things. Let me ask one quick question. When you're crossing, is there an audible signal when you can walk? There's an audible signal that says the lights are flashing. Okay. It's not a stoplight. Right. So it doesn't say it's safe to cross. It says the lights are flashing. And the lights flashing signal the other drivers? To yield to you, yes. Okay. I've never used a roundabout before. So I'm asking a lot of questions about it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know the answer to Marty's question about inboard or outboard. There is a standard though that people who know this, who've studied this all over the place have developed. I don't know the standard, which is really why I suggested that you hire a consultant. I don't need her. Ask the consultant about where they should be. They shouldn't be just haphazard. There's a standard for how to put them in. There is a standard and they're all pretty much within the standard that you need to be. There are two of them that are a little far away, a little too far away, but they're the only place they can go without being hit by traffic. So that's where they are. The rest are in a spot where they meet the requirements for the distance from the crosswalk to the travel way. I have a little question about the south entrance to this roundabout. Say people coming from Hadley through the Luch and through Atkins and everything, it seems like the distance between Atkins and this intersection is how it's people just go at speeds maybe around 45, 50 miles an hour, I would think at least. So is there some kind alert to the drivers like there's flashing lights right now, slow down or something like that? So with this project there are signage alerting you that you're coming to the roundabout and the slow down. In the future, we are actually hoping to put at least two more of these roundabouts going farther south. So one will be in the vicinity of Deepwoods Drive and West Street and the other one will be in the vicinity of Glendale and West Street is kind of what we're hoping to create sort of a corridor where you go through a series of these and it kind of slows you down the whole way through the village center. That's the long term. For the short term, when we put this in there will be signage that warns people you're coming into the roundabout. I see. Okay. I want to go back to the consultant. Who did you ask for the standard of where to put the RRFBs? We use the standard for mass DOT for the RRFB placement which is based on what they've developed with the architectural review board. Okay. So from what I can tell, everything that you presented is done with the best that you could do without having consulted someone who knows about this from experience working with blind people. The mass DOT may or may not be up to date on what those people who have made a career of studying how people can cross streets safely have done this and that is why I sent the name of a consultant to Maureen and it was allegedly a fort where you were allegedly received it months ago and all that person would need is this picture and say are these lights placed in the best possible way for blind pedestrian safety and I would like to make a motion that we make it make I mean we can't make you do anything we're advisory but all along I've been asking for this because I don't know the answer to the question but before you build it I would sure like you to consult someone who does know the answer to the question. So the consultant is going to charge for that so I do not have funds to you know some of them might charge for that and some might not because all you're asking is is this have I placed these lights in a way that it you know given what's here you know there's a guy who works there are people who work for the commission for the blind in Massachusetts who you know who have this as their field of expertise and if they looked at it they might be able to give you some suggestions they could not charge you because they work for the Commonwealth they would not be allowed to charge you there is the woman that I referred who used to be the head mobility instructor it wasn't even clear to me she would charge you nobody investigated any of it so I am I am I'm sort of all right well we'll put it in the memo and and you know and well we're going to put it in the memo but that you know you know where things are suggested in the memo go so I think it's a I have said all along I said to the town council I have said everywhere I don't know the answer to this question everything you did Guilford might be perfect I couldn't tell you I can't see it and I don't I don't know what the best state of affairs is I know that most of what's around in most places doesn't work very well but if we're going to build it we ought to build what does work well and when you said lights you meant the flashing beacon yeah yeah all right well so point taken Guilford heard you and I don't feel like he needs to provide a response but he has heard you loud and clear Myra so are there any other comments or questions about this project could we also know what the outcome of Myra's suggestion is yes or no or there's no money and we cannot do it or it's going to cost this much and so because many many times my frustration always is you all know is you bring up something and nothing happens or you have no idea yep so we put it in minutes and we ask for this or that and then we find out that it wasn't done and it wasn't an insignificant thing that was requested so yes I mean this is not the first time I brought this up it's not even the second time or the third time so I mean what he did might be perfect it totally might be I don't have a way to know that's all I'm saying and I wanted somebody who knows much more than I do and much more than looking at regulations would help us find out so I'd like somebody I can make the motion if you want but I already did you have a comment or question you've raised your hand yeah oh good yeah I raised a hand Pat's not here to answer this question but I thought we were given a line item budget no the this committee was not given a line item budget okay but the town has for municipal buildings for ADA improvements well you know if it's helpful to all involved I'm happy to reach out to the consultant on behalf of this committee and see if the consultant can provide us some comments uh you know over the you know I could talk to the person on the phone or by email or see if they could come to a meeting so we could do the leg work ourselves if if that's of interest to everyone that's of interest and I don't see why that yeah I like talking to people so I'm happy to hear hear what a consultant would say particularly if it's free right or exclusively if it's free well morey we pay so much taxes anyhow so I think we can find like five hundred dollars to pay for that if that is the case um I that that I I um I would need to talk to my supervisors you cannot you know I mean I don't know five hundred dollars in the world we live in right now is always a lot of money I mean if they're if they're kind of charge anything we can ask and we can see what they say if they want to charge us we have to regroup and decide what we're going to do yeah well at least I could have a you know a quick friendly conversation on the phone with someone and and I mean it seems like it's a sort of a a minor detail that they you know would not spend you know longer than five minutes looking at if it is purely just looking at the location of the flashing beacons so we could just see see if they're willing to provide free quick guidance and also they can look at it and you know it would be nice if they have the plans right in front of them they can say oh also you know if you did it this way that would be very beneficial for the um for some folks with vision impairments and blind so they might have some other suggestions as well I'm actually reading the federal highway um manual on uniform traffic control devices and it's not in there they say that they say that these controls have to be within uh six feet from where you step into the roadway and they have to be within five feet to the side of that uh curb cut and that's all they really say other than it has to be on a paved surface so having a consultant might really help someone who is specific knowledge is in this about the location of where it's supposed to go yep okay so does someone want to make a motion that we go on the record with on this sure I'll make the motion that that um Maureen speak to uh the consultant that that you've recommended and see if we can get someone get them to review it quickly a second okay vote oh sarin yes Elise yes marty yes and me yes um so I thank you other than that it seems like you've done a lot of really good thinking as far as you know what we can tell um from what we know it seems like we don't have any other suggestions right yeah I want to say it looks really really good gilford thanks it's gonna be I drive through there all the time and I am really going to appreciate it I like the islands they're great I think that'd be very protective and I'm sure all the island at each yeah there's an island each so each crosswalk each crosswalk has an island on either side of it even the crosswalk that's at the uh north end by the um moan and dove has a island in the middle yes okay I just figured you were putting the crosswalks at the after the roundabout 30 feet so that there wouldn't be an island no there's an island protecting each side and yeah that's cool those also help to slow traffic yes it's yeah and it's one lane each way right yes there's only one lane on each side okay um maureen I just noticed there's a member of the public uh that's raising their hand um did you want to entertain I'm certainly willing to um let's see here oops asked to unmute can you please say your name and your address I don't know somebody there maybe they didn't want to speak oh I believe it's Tracy yeah I did unmute her maybe she I don't know what's going on no she's still there she's still there maybe she doesn't want to speak I don't know well all right well if you want to try but she's raising her hand again well maybe she's having technical difficulties because you are unmuted Tracy uh try to press star six and try to talk maybe that'll help I don't know oh okay we hear you there she does okay sorry I was just testing the mic I don't know what was up with um so I I just want a quick question about the one the crosswalk that's going to be here the voted does so how can't hear her very clearly can you guys hear me now a little bit into my mic but can you hear me sorry can you hear me now um yeah go ahead my question was about how far away the the roundabout crosswalk is from the moon and dove crosswalk and just that you know sometimes when people come out of crosswalks I mean out of roundabouts right their first instinct as a driver is to accelerate and so just to make sure that people and I understand that um the moon and dove crossing is gonna from the diagram it's gonna have a rapid rectangular flashing beacon too but just you know there's a way to keep the traveling narrow or something just so that people don't get that instincts or how far apart they are I guess my question good point so it's 350 feet from the center of the roundabout so it's about 300 feet from the exit to the roundabout so okay well I mean it's that seems like I guess that's not so far but hopefully hopefully people won't try to accelerate much or if they do you know the road could be narrowed a little bit I mean that's where the bus stop is to and stuff so so is the if you were getting off the bus on the northbound bus is the crosswalk going to be north of the bus stop or south of the bus stop no we couldn't do the crosswalks the way pv piece or pvta likes them we actually ended up having to move the crosswalks north of both the bus stops so they're not behind the buses when you discharge okay well it's good that they're not behind the bus is just I just know from driver safety and where pedestrians get hit disembarking from buses right that um you know there are cases where just the drivers aren't aware that the disembarking passengers are going to cross the street and then sometimes the drivers will go around the bus or whatever so that's a pretty common way that bus riders get hit when they're getting off so just to like think about the safety of that but I mean hopefully hopefully people won't just get off and get hit but just okay thank you thank you thank you Tracy all right um I think we're done with this topic um can you come back in May and let us know or Maureen I guess you can Maureen you can let us know what the outcomes were of the conversations meaning that if they think that the project was great um well done no suggestions we we just need to hear that and if there are suggestions then um we need to hear that too and probably as soon as you can find out perhaps before the well the May meetings only in two weeks so that's fine hard to believe May is around the corner when you said May I thought that was months from now well that's next week because it's not warm yeah that's why there's flowers out there though somehow they think it's spring okay um all right thank you Guilford all right goodbye thank you thank you thank you um the next thing is just the minutes right oh no um but I don't even know what time it is well we're almost one yeah we're running out of time Marty so I just want to say about minutes um just can we do those quickly because it would be nice if we could put them out um I have one suggestion on the one that had to do with the oh god was it March or May you wrote Myra Smith on one of them of course I did and well both of us both both of us were the people who talked about the topic but the one that says Myra Smith was my comment the one that was her comment does say Marty Smith sorry I try and that was on the March 8th you know I don't know which one just I'll check both of them check uh Marty versus did anybody read the minutes is anybody willing to able to approve does anyone have suggestions or can we just approve them both in bulk don't all answer at once I make a motion to approve both sets and minutes cool all right anybody second it I'll second Elise okay all right um so we should vote Marty yes Sam yes Elise yes and I vote yes too with the change of Myra Smith okay and it sounds like every uh all other items on there on the agenda will need to be postponed to the next time because we're out of time oh I just have one thing I need to okay you can say one thing but that's it and that is I'm participating in the library um open house on Sunday there's an open house yeah this Sunday and I'm I'm manning the table for excessive universal design and accessibility just so you know I have to be involved I wish I could be there um oh yeah okay well that's good information Marty can you email me that information pardon Marty could you email me that information yeah sure all right so the next meeting is um usual time Maureen um since Ruth and um Tori aren't here that might be really good for them to know yeah if they could get to it yep yep so the next meeting is May the 10th at 1130 right here on zoom so we'll see each other next time yeah and that's only two weeks so next week the stuff will come out and um yeah I think um those were important conversations to have great thank you thank you bye everyone thank you