 titled, Countless Palestinian Futures, presented by Dr Dana Abdullah and Serona Abu-Aqir. I hope I pronounced your surname well, Serona. But it's going to be a discussion around what do we mean by countless Palestinian futures and around a discussion-based game developed jointly between Dana and Serona. The aim of countless Palestinian futures is to stimulate the imagination by helping people develop tangible outcomes and ideas around Palestinian futures. I don't want to talk too much about what the talk will be about, but I would like to introduce our speakers. Dana Abdullah is a Palestinian Canadian designer, educator and researcher interested in new narratives and practices in design that push the disciplinary boundaries and definitions of the discipline. She is the program director of graphic design at Campbellville, Chelsea and Wimbledon College of Arts. She has previously had positions at Brunel University London and London College of Communication, which are part of the University of Arts London. Dana obtained her PhD in design from Goldsmiths University of London and is a founding member of the decolonising design platform, which is worth checking out on Google or on your website. In 2010, she founded Calimat Magazine, an independent non-profit publication about Arab thought and culture. Her research focuses on decolonising design, possibilities of design education, design cultures, the politics of design, publishing and social design. Serona is a poet, artist and educational outreach of workers. She graduated with a master's degrees in art and politics from Goldsmiths. Her poems have been published in Berfua Math Magazine, the 87th Press Digital Poetic Series and Blood Gang. Her essay, Suture, Fragmentations in Out on Return, was published by Koh-Hul, a journal for body and gender research in the queer feminism issue in December 2020. In 2021, Serona took part in notes on radical inclusivity, diaspora and poetry, a roundtable discussion and online poetry showcase, co-curated by the 87th Press and Camden Art Centre. Her debut poetry collection, Why So Few Women on the Street at Night, was published by the 87th Press in 2021. It is a queer phenomenology of collective Palestinian futurisms and memory building, utilising mixed media, such as visual cultures, essays and poems, to approach territories as different as Turtle Island, broccoli and Palestine. So, I note the absence of my partner in crime, Nargis Ferser, but she is unavailable today to help with the co-chairing. But what is going to happen today, everybody knows, is that Dana and Serona will be presenting using PowerPoint for about 20 to 25 minutes. And then, if you could put your questions in the chat icon at the bottom of the screen, and I will be posing the question to our speakers tonight. So welcome, everyone. I pass it over to you, Dana and Serona, and really looking forward to this discussion. Thank you very much, Dina, for that introduction. I'm going to share my screen and ask everybody if... You're me, too, Dana. Zoom. Okay, screen can be seen. Yes, and we can hear you. Perfect. Okay, so thanks very much for the invitation to present our work here today. As Dina said in her introduction, my name is Dana Abdullah, and today, me and Serona are going to be presenting our game, Countless Palestinian Futures. So we are living in a crisis where our imaginations have been kidnapped, rusting away in shackles, replaced by what scholar Henry Giroux calls the disimagination machine. A set of cultural apparatuses that functions primarily to undermine the ability of individuals to think critically, imagine the unimaginable, and engage in thoughtful and critical dialogue, put simply to become critically informed citizens of the world. Palestine-Israel is often referred to as complicated, a borderline branded as a wicked problem, problems with many interdependent factors making them seem impossible to solve. Israel's constant settlement building and ethnic cleansing is not only destructive to Palestine's physical appearance, but a politicide that fixes the Palestinian imagination. What solutions to Palestine lack is imagination, and what we have is an inability to imagine beyond what is right in front of us, beyond the damaging ideas and decisions set out by state governance institutions. Instead, we legitimize these institutions. So how do we utilize imagination to get what we want, to see real change, to take it back into our hands? Because imagination is the leader of willpower and it is the ultimate human resource. Thank you, Dina, for the introduction. Really happy to be here. So current discourse on Palestine is rooted in various conversations emerging mainly from the departure point of how do we solve this problem, this conflict, this refugee crisis, these clashes, flashpoints. And the tools that are often utilized to approach these problems or what is constituted as the Palestinian problem is international law. Human resolutions that were promised, ones that were broken, the references and reinforcement calling upon a peace process, a method of furthering colonization through diplomacy. The terms for these treaties are often dictated to Palestinians, as opposed to by and for us. And with the main demand of land back being pushed off the table to be dealt with when quote unquote conditions are right. And these conditions are dictated by negotiations as starkly as seen in the Oslo Accords. And these conditions, which are constituted as conditions for peace are often achieved through what is known as Palestine becoming an open marketplace for international investment. Palestine, as Karim Robbie describes in his book, Palestine is throwing a party in the world is invited is increasingly understood through Ramallah's shopping malls. And housing, luxury hotels, the building boom, it's placed on something the UN calls the World Wide Happiness Index. Campaigns have also become the main vehicles for for engaging with Palestine, issuing demands that are necessary to prevent an immediate material devastation in the continuation of the ongoing neck but as we've seen in the last few weeks, witnessing the expulsion and demolishment of the Sunni family home. And tandem with this, there is the NGOization of Palestine and of the struggle, creating a timeline that often does not go beyond the immediate ceasing of an action, I stopped the demolishment of the home. Palestine is often framed within a certain language, a language that stays within and reinforces the global governance of conflict, security and terror. And the pushing back of Palestinians material demands and forcing conversations in our ability to think beyond the present into a limbo and circular circuitry of thoughts and action. In this circular reinforcement is often an approach to cultural production as well in its route in its in its reflected in the rootedness that does not stray from traditional aesthetics. This creates a schism of attempting to address and a cease the eradication of the people, whilst also attempting to look ahead within global governance, who is ascribed the power to solve this problem of erasure. Who do we look to, and what does looking ahead look like. While culture is in cultural production that look at the future of Palestine, it is often situated strictly within science fiction and futurity was cultural production and politics are inherently intertwined due to the systematic efforts to criminalize Palestine as a discourse and Palestinians abilities to imagine themselves living in freedom and dignity. And the implication and way of situating it furthers the imposed binary between the cultural and the political. In other words, the imagination utilize to create science fiction is only applied to the fictionalized. Imagination is often not reoriented as a valuable and necessary tool for the day to day political landscape and imagining what the future itself could be. It is not just imaginary worlds, instead of using it as a way to confront situations in our own world and framing them as our reality real possibilities, real imagined futures. But even science fiction as Frederick James and once wrote becomes a testament to our incapacity to imagine the future into the limits placed on upon our political imaginations. One only needs to look at the metaverse to understand how empty or innovative these images of the future are. It gives paper, putting the right of return into practice and projects such as would not buy blood now, whose aim is to educate the youth about the neck and use 3D modeling to create actual models for return. As in, what would a village look like if and when it was rebuilt. Well this is important it remains a specific concept of return returning to something that once was in a modern form, rather than what it could be. Moreover, it focuses on rebuilding something physically, instead of a more expansive view of return that encompasses the material and non material. Edward Said believed ever more strongly that the name of the game was the war of images and ideas. A battle to make the Palestinian story as sophisticated and persuasive as Israeli Hasbara propaganda. The way forward for liberation struggles lay in quote flexible mobile political forces who relied more on initiative, creativity and surprise than they did on holding fixed positions. And quote, almost 20 years since Said's call for engaging with cultural production to make the Palestinian narrative more persuasive. Have we succeeded. Since the 2010s, there has been progress. For example, models Gigi and Bella Hadid who grace the covers of mainstream fashion magazines tabloids and have very active social media followings are unapologetically proud of their Palestinian heritage. They actively share posts about their participation in protests and do not censor themselves when expressing it. This has allowed Palestine to step into popular cultural discourse beyond typical news headlines. Some would say the events of May 2021, which flooded social media channels with images from Palestine is proof of this shift. We saw an increase in Instagram carousel posts giving context to the cause and the creation of materials shared for free from various cultural producers, including how to combat the algorithm that was censoring posts on Palestine and reducing views for many users. Fees were bombarded with Palestine posts, forcing those who were normally disengaged to be confronted by it. These events, which took place just as London was opening up from lockdown invigorated the both of us to act. And in my own personal experience, which I discussed in my essay melancholy and a Palestinian sadness published in the Journal of Visual Culture. I talked about this need to be a part of something, but something that went beyond protests and help people understand what was going on in Palestine, rather than resorting to hear read this 700 page book. Particularly as conversations around anti racism and social justice were becoming more common. And yet I was dealing with a lot of people who were progressive, except for Palestine, and the silence was deafening. At the same time, I was interested in capitalizing on this energy to move beyond ad hoc quick actions into something more tangible and effective, looking into the future realistically. An opportunity came when the mosaic rooms commissioned me for a workshop as part of the stateless heritage exhibition. With Edward Said's quote about the war of images and ideas in mind. I thought about my role as a designer, and the power we designers have in dictating lifestyles and shaping ways of being. While not everything is about design, design is about everything, and its potential within Palestine was untapped. I wanted to take the opportunity provided by this commission to begin considering these ideas I was grappling with. I called Serona and proposed we collaborate on this project. So we began to think about how we could talk about Palestine without getting into heated arguments, or having to go to a lecture or reading a dense book, or to be an expert, but rather an everyday type of conversation. We asked ourselves, what if we took Palestine out of this exclusive space and enable people to talk about ideas in a safe space. And I think a black feminist scholar Patricia Collins's concept of the safe space where she writes quote, historically safe spaces were safe because they represented places where black women could freely examine issues that concerned us. By definition, such spaces become less safe if shared with those who were not black and female black women's safe spaces were never meant to be a way of life. Instead, they constitute one mechanism among many designed to foster black women's empowerment and enhance our ability to participate in social justice projects. As strategies, safe spaces rely on exclusionary practices, but their overall purpose most certainly aims for a more inclusionary just society, end quote. So through these questions that we posed, we thought of gamification. Gamification is a strategy used in education and training where it helps make learning more motivating and engaging. The process can help retain knowledge and promote problem based learning. The games are often open ended rather than fixed and have the possibility of creating connections and are an easy way to start a conversation, particularly around Palestine. Zionists also utilize the power of games to push their agenda. On the screen are three examples of games used by Zionists with different aims spreading the ideas of Zionism and settlement of the land to those already in Palestine and amongst the diaspora. These games were mostly developed by the Jewish National Fund, which was founded in 1901 to buy and develop land across Palestine for Jewish settlement. The first is called a journey in Palestine from 1927. In this game, there is a trail drawn over the map of Palestine, and the players are tourists who arrive at the Port of Yefa and have to reach the endpoint, the Port of Haifa, by throwing a dice. The attached cards provided vast information about the various points and thus improve the children's knowledge of the land of Israel. Lotto of the Yishuvah and the land from 1945 was a lottery game, which included valuable information on the various settlements in Palestine. The aim of the game was to create a line sequence or fill the board with the names of Kibbutzim, Mushavim, cities, etc. Finally, Jerusalem ahead, a tour through the road of courage from 1951, is about reaching Jerusalem first, passing through various locations in Israel that had significance during their so-called war events. A further two examples included children's game from 1929 called Let Me Pass Through the Land, which is a game that sought to teach children the association between the entire country and Jewish history. The object of the game was to go through the many communities throughout the country and redeem their land. If necessary, eventually reaching the top of Mount Hermon to plant the Hebrew flag there. Each player had to choose one of the following figures, a pioneer from Russia, a Hasid from Poland, a citrus grove owner from the United States, a merchant from Spain, and a laborer from Yemen, all of them Jewish. The game Making Aliyah was developed in 1977 by a board Sunday school teacher to help explain the traditions so people have a deeper understanding of Judaism. Not just what they do, but why they do them. The term Aliyah refers to the immigration of Jews from the diaspora to the state of Israel. In this game, the first person to reach Israel wins. What all these games have in common is they bring together various entities in their production. But most importantly is they are all designed and require a designer to produce the work in an understandable form and in engaging in interactive form. Return is often conceived by international law as the re-entry to country of origin, a linear direction of travel from exile to home. The resolution return is often conceptualized by resolution 194 resolves that refugee that quote refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace, will be able to do so by their neighbors at the earliest practiceable date. This resolution was created out of the neck but in today, the majority of Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine than within. The return imagined and in what ways is return conceptualized in a landscape dominated by the materiality of territory home in nationhood return as being on the land as in land back is non negotiable. And we see it practiced already in a multiplicity of ways. We also see it reflected upon in literature and novel in a linear singular conceptualization through the economy's return in Salman Abu Sita's memoir, while stories such as returning to Haifa by Ghazan Kenefani poses the point. I always knew we'd return, but I always imagined it us opening the gate, instead of it being opened from the other side. What then and I are moved to expand in with collectivity is the conversation surrounding return return is often only seen as we go back, and then the conversation stops there. But what happens after what happens after we land, what would the material, the substances, the worlds that make return look like is going back to Palestine a return, if we are only resubjugating ourselves and perpetuating the oppressive systematic practices that we experienced in exile. Return should not be about reproducing debt, racism neoliberalism patriarchy under a different flag. These modes of domination already exist there and is part and parcel of the systematic practice. Nor will these modes of domination simply dissolve when Palestinians exist within a space. These are modes of domination that we need to destabilize. What we live in thinking through and reckoning with the different ways return is already embodied is an invitation to explore what Arturo Escobar describes as quote, the politics of the possible. Our notions of what is real and what is possible determine both our political practice from the personal to the collective and our sense of hope. One of the aims of the countless Palestinian futures is to empower players to not limit oneself by the political imagination of others. Our goal was educational at the same time to entice debate. We wanted to develop a game that did not frame Palestinians as victims, but rather as people who are taking ownership over their own narratives. This doesn't mean we're trying to replicate the past so ie return is something that is a backwards motion and something that we're trying to replace. With this game we're actually trying to create discussions that materially look forward worlds building, not imaginary worlds, but situations in our own world. So to develop the game, we first decided on the format. We looked at a few examples including school of life's 100 questions, Brian Enos obliques oblique strategies, the method kit and the thing from the future, which is a game designed by Stuart candy and Jeff Watson from the situation lab. This was followed by developing our own questions, settling on themes and what they encompass, which we needed to be broad enough and to include an explanation for this of course within the game. Six themes were sets so culture and media economy governance and policy infrastructure geography and people in society. We toyed with the idea of having Palestine specific patterns on the back of the cards but this could have teetered on the stereotypical and predictable Palestinian iconography. So we chose to go with solid colors and not those of the flag. So for the typeface the ideal scenario would happen to use a typeface made by a Palestinian designer, but we were faced with a few issues typeface licenses must be purchased which gets expensive. And we thought about the transferability of the game. We also need a typefaces with varying weights to set them in bold and italics. So we chose to fonts from Google fonts as these are open source and work well in both print and on the screen. And these are the two typefaces that are currently being used in this presentation. We also created a space called Tesc which was used for the titles and subtitles mainly including the theme, whereas spectral is the main body copy we set the questions in and some title headings. And while working on the form, we began collating a list of people we would like to contact to contribute questions and drafting email. We created a form for contributors to fill out and enable easy transfer of information from the form to a board that we created in Miro, the questions in categorizing them by themes set by the contributors. And upon printing the game and looking at it physically, we made some aesthetic tweaks to ensure better legibility for the second iteration. Then we looked at each one each each one of the cards and reviewed the language and the theme and started editing these collectively. Some questions were discarded some were rewritten, etc. Then we developed the third and final iteration before the event. Again, there were a few aesthetic tweaks for legibility and certain questions were reworded. This was the final version that we used for the session of the mosaic rooms in October 2021. In terms of the name, we wanted something that could translate into different contexts. For example, it can be countless Afghani futures or countless Lebanese futures or countless Arab futures. We were influenced by Umberto Eco's idea of the open work because it can be read in an infinite number of ways, depending on what the user brings. This approach enables more audience user participation into the process. Therefore, we don't see this game as a fixed entity, but as something open to interpretation and iteration. This is why the name itself emphasizes futures rather than a singular future. Design is currently defined as a problem solving discipline, which entails that the solution one finds for a problem is the only way forward. But I view design as a space of possibilities, the negotiation with the given. Therefore, the possibility presented is only one amongst multiple possibilities. So the rules of the game are simple. We recommend three to six players assign a moderator and players should choose no more than two to three questions per game and put a time limit on each question. Each game session should last approximately one to two hours. Depending on the number of players, the moderator should decide how different voices are heard. Players are offered two options to play. The first is to choose different themes. The moderator shuffles the cards from different theme sets. Each player has handed two cards. Players read their cards and choose one question and they put that down on the table. The moderator reads each question and the group chooses which question or questions recommended no more than two or three will be played. The second option is to choose one theme. The moderator chooses one theme for the group to discuss and picks one question from the chosen theme. We also included tips such as the instructions on how and where to play it. So as a conversational prompt over a coffee at a dinner party, etc. And then that we also offered the option that players can rephrase the question and that documentation of the discussion is also up to the players. Players can also establish goals for the conversation at the start if they choose to do so. So the game does not have an end. People can keep playing the same statement until they are satisfied. And we emphasize that this is a shared learning space, but everyone should contribute to the conversation, even if it is not their card. The moderator should aim to ensure that no one person dominates or interrupts the conversation. So we prepared for the session without knowing who our audience would be. We did not have the list of names nor their backgrounds. We knew 20 people signed up and we and we asked the mosaic rooms to open the session to Arabs and Palestinians. And here we were attempting to follow Patricia Collins's guidance on safe spaces where we have spaces to formulate a language before we take it beyond our own communities. So both of us were experienced workshop moderators and knew that we had to ensure attendees felt comfortable in sharing their views openly. So prior to the session, we chose the questions we would ask and how we would play the game. So we went with option two and played three questions at about 25 minutes each. And we chose to document the session with a large roll of paper divided down the middle. And participants who were speaking were not asked to write their thoughts but those next to them had to document some of the key comments. So we had a really great cohort to join us. And what we asked them to do was essentially to consider return as a material thing. And we had about 12 attendees so we divided them into groups of six, which was a perfect number then it took one group I took another. And good moderation was an incredible key to this and so setting the rules of how then and I would attempt to encourage facilitate or steer discussions really required us to think on our feet, especially looking at kind of the live action of the conversations themselves. So participants who attended came from varying backgrounds, some worked in campaigning were well established academics were involved in policy, while others were also undergraduate students. The range is important, because there are levels of people who have never been given the opportunity to discuss this and to engage in this sort of discussion. So as well what does it mean when the hierarchy is abolished or attempting to create spaces where people from varying backgrounds, class, racial gender are able to come together and what does that then bring to the discussion. Some of the reactions on social media that we're really happy to have. One of them says, it only just hit me how invigorating it was to imagine the complex in mundane aftermath of a liberated Palestine with other Palestinians. One of them says, while to realize how stifled my own imagination is for the potential to imagine our world outside of the current system. Another attendee said, this was the first event on Palestine I attended that wasn't depressing. So, what is the future of this game where do we want to take this. The first thing that we're thinking about of course is how we can organize a few more events where we can invite more people to play the game. We will also be putting a Google form in the chat so people can sign up if they are interested in participating in future events. One of the main things that we're really thinking about is translating the game into Arabic. And this way we can link the different worlds that are at odds with each other that make up both the Arab region and Palestine. There was a lot of requests in terms of how do we get our hands on the game, but I think what we need to do is that this is currently very much prototype. And so once we rework it with a few more sessions and are able to analyze how things went, I think we can then sort of develop a version that we can release that we can release out into the world more more publicly. So, this is an image that I came across two very interesting things on my way home today. The first was that I just saw Matt Hancock walking outside nearby which was quite hilarious. And the second thing is that this poster which was created by one of our first year students on the BA Graphic Design Communication Chelsea course was right outside of the campus and I thought it would be a nice way to end with one of the best lines about Palestine which is Révolution jusqu'à la victoire and we want to thank you all very much for attending this talk and for Dina and so as for giving us the space to present. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was brilliant and I'm sure we're going to have a few questions. I have one question which is not really related to what you're talking about it's someone asking a political question to state solution a possibility in the Middle East stakeholder and which acts as a direct adversary to the Zionist establishment and that talking about Iran. How is the role of Iran perceived by individuals in the Palestinian intellectual space. So I think you know it's up to you to decide whether you want to answer that question. But I just think it's out of the realm of the of the discussion, but there's just come up another question. So there's one from Saudi. Why did you choose not to include any artwork of Palestinian design of Palestine design elements. Yeah, I can I can take that. I think there was a there was a sense in creating the design of this is to be as simplistic and avoid patterns as much as possible. Now of course that doesn't mean that this is kind of the final look of it because design is quite an iterative process. It was also a very short amount of time and I don't believe in free labor. So it's if I want to use someone's artwork I think it's important that there is at least a, you know, a certain fee that's given to them to have their work on this on this game so that's basically the the the answer that I can give you to that question. And there's another question asking whether you could give an example of one of your questions that you ask in the game. Yes, but any modeling of the future of Palestine. That is quite interesting. How can we see the questions. We have if I'm not mistaken one of the questions that then and I first came up with was, what would we do with the material from the apartheid ball. When it came down. Would it be repurposed into a home or like public seating or something such as that so that was one of the first things I think that we came up with, but there's over 60 questions. So that's why we encourage you to come to one of our future events so you can hear them all. So what about the idea of modeling in terms of. I mean, did you come at the question by up the half of the half says that is there any modeling of the future of Palestine. So, as a result of the game, did you did you come up with with any modeling, you know, did was there a consensus about what return means so on. Big question but important one. I don't think there was a consensus per se I think the, in terms of like a model itself of. I don't think there was one I think the aim of the game is rather to. I think it comes in stages I suppose but I think one of the main feedbacks that we got from from the people who participated was that they didn't realize how difficult it would be to answer those questions. So that was hopefully one of the points of actually creating the game, which is we think it, we take it for an obvious thing, but then actually when confronted with it in in one shape or form. We actually realized the amount of limitations that are placed in our ability to concretely deal with the landscape in in that way. And so there wasn't a model, but hopefully what we're hoping is comes out of the many iterations that this hopefully will take place as is that there will be alliances and models created between the varying people who who who hopefully will take part. One of the things that we really wanted was hope this is something that we don't want to exist within just the space of where the game takes place we want it to be taken into other spaces and that's through potentially similar ideas that people have while playing the game or meeting someone that you didn't know, and in that creating a connection, and hopefully that kind of translating to something else. Yeah, I think it's I mean, none of the questions are quite utopian and scope, I think there isn't like, here's this. Just imagine what it all looks like I think there was, there were the themes and there were very specific questions that kind of that also related to each other I think that was one of the things that people realize is that this I can't answer this question without looking at this so it was leading to the and they were posing further questions along the process which is in fact what you want, you know, you know, I think one of the questions was you know what type of governance with with Palestine have, and that sparked up a lot of different views in the room you know some people had consensus some people were arguing differently. And, but that's, that's kind of what made it interesting there's no one view of what things would be. And but I think we were very careful in trying not to craft something like imagine this utopia you have this blank slate would you do, but actually framing questions where people could could think about yeah I could answer that I could tackle that. This is really interesting because I suppose you have already answered the question by Sylvia, we wanted to have a little bit more about the outcomes of the game and what were the most striking aspects and interesting ideas about what happens after So, I think you have answered that question but you could elaborate on that. And there's a question, is it similar to trivial pursuit. But I think one of. So, you're laughing down you can you can comment on that. But but also there's a question that says the idea of opening up the dialogue to other audiences struggling with refugee refugee as a theme is interesting. Are some of the questions open in that way, or is it just focused on Palestine, although I love the idea of imagining that this is a beautiful project so if any of you would comment on the possibility of going beyond Palestine. I think there are some questions that go beyond Palestine because I think one of the questions that was submitted which was a lovely question is, you know what happens to the Arab world if everybody returns. And I think this is a very legitimate and you know it's and also how do you integrate the diaspora who's always lived outside of Palestine you know coming into this place so in a way it's framed around Palestine but there's a lot of questions that touch on things that that affected. I wasn't sure if you wanted to kind of, I guess in terms of the findings I think both Serona and I are waiting to conduct a few more events in order to really to really do a full on analysis of actually what these, you know what happened and also interview the participants afterwards to get their thoughts and feedback on that which we weren't able to do this was very much a pilot a trial. Right now we just have like a huge roll of paper sitting in the back of just about like six different pages on top of each other with different markings from people. You know how do you begin to analyze that what does that say what does that contribute to the future of this game. And, yeah. And there is something from with Sam, it's really interested she's interested that the gamification method creates a spaceport into lectures and others to come together and discuss freely, especially if they felt comfortable the question is it possible to have such games and introduce them in Palestine and maybe tailored to fit the context of local Palestinians and maybe start with the universities to instigate critical thinking. A related question is whether you're being, you know, is there a possibility of running a version in Hebrew. And could you think of Israelis thinking about an ideal future Palestine. I think with with Sam's question. I mean definitely I think the would be quite exciting to see this game and that's I think our hope as well is that this isn't that this doesn't stay within, you know, within the geographical area that we're just presiding in. I think that was kind of the thing that we were. I think Dana mentioned this during the presentation we didn't really know what the reactions would be. And so that was really encouraging I think when people, you know, left and they were just like we're really, really struck by how, how fruitful that was, and but also how serious it was as well. So I think there are kinds of spaces that I think gamification opens up I would love to see that and have it be tailored to different, you know, for different audiences, especially different, you know, Palestinians wherever, wherever they are. In terms of Nicholas's question. I mean, the point of the game is for it to be held within different contexts. So, if that's, if that's, you know, something that someone else would want to do. So there's, there's, you know, is really NGOs that that are anti Zionist such as the whole, who do a lot of good work. That could potentially be be a great platform to run that by and see if that could be held there. And there's a question whether you could share some of the imaginative answers, and whether I think the question, the question whether different responses as outcomes of the games and I think you've already answered that question. But is it possible to share some of the imaginative answers you know like something that stands out in your mind right now about some of the comments. The only thing that always comes to my mind is with the apartheid wall question is demolition party. That was the main because it was written in these big capital letters. But you know despite the fact that I think it was an hour and 15 minutes or it was an hour 20 minutes. There was so much text and dense text in there that it's, you know, it's difficult for me to kind of remember everything that was said and recall the conversations that were taking place. I think one of the most striking things was when someone wrote demolition party they were like that's it the end. I'm like what are you going to do with all that concrete like I didn't think about that. And so then that kind of got into say street furniture, you know housing rebuilding villages, these types of things. I think that's why we were talking about the key is moderation, right in terms of how do you pose questions back. Because no one knows each other. I mean some some people did know each other but there was that sort of nervousness of I don't know you I'm not sure where you stand politically. I'm going to and you felt it kind of in the room and then they sort of everybody was a bit more relaxed by the end because in a way they made new friends that or or at least for that moment they did. Even if they disagreed. And I think that was one of the nicest things about the session because yes there were disagreements but they weren't. They were healthy disagreements I think. I think. Oh sorry Dina go ahead. No no go on. I was just going to say that I think one of the most. One of the most exciting things was to see the, because we had a lot of questions also around like class like would you would you want an elite, like what does class relations look like in return what would that. What do you see kind of, I think the negotiations, people were making like. Well if they don't, you know, looking I think at the negotiations of like class differences, how people negotiate I think like what's, you know, restorative justice, you know rehabilitation things along the line of well what happens with wealth distribution what happens if someone doesn't want to distribute their wealth and seeing the different responses to that. I think was really exciting as well because it, it shows I think the necessity of pushing that conversation forward, because of course those aren't just exclusive to Palestine. But I think it's so taken for granted within a microcosm of a place where there's the obvious, I think, oppressive, oppressive force, and then everything else that tends to trickle underneath but it's all obviously intertwined. And there are a couple of questions are going to pose them together in terms of the age groups, is it for different age groups, and somebody is asking whether whether the game is already available to purchase. You can make your millions here, it would be a great to be able to arrange events within the university through student unions or Palestine Solidarity campaign. And, yeah, so, so questions related to that. And then another question which is whether any of the participants are not Palestinian, and how does win the game, I thought that was interesting. So, maybe you could just respond to these questions and we'll go to other ones shortly. There was no age group, I think you know this, it's also whatever space you do it in you know that they have a specific audience that attends their events so I was very aware of. I mean, I think, as someone who's visited the mosaic rooms multiple times you kind of have an idea of who the visitor is, and of course you'll have an anomaly here and there. So, I think that it in another space, maybe kind of a bigger space that we know that we're going to have a different audience might be a younger audience. I don't think we really considered age as much in the production of this like but obviously it's not necessarily a game for teenagers or young children I think that would require a different framing, possibly different questions that it's not out of, it's not out of. We haven't considered but it's not something that we're considering at the moment. I think we were targeting people very similar to us based on the conversations that we've had so so academics organizers, and even you know undergraduate students who were interested, where any of the participants not Palestinian yes I think we had a few that were not Palestinian, but we're very aware of, you know, issues pertaining to so they had a knowledge of Palestine. And can you get a copy not yet. I think I, it is, it is an iterative. It's an iterative process I very much fight against this very quick way of designing something and putting it out into the world that's why we have so much junk in the world actually. In terms of just ensuring that we, we've gotten to a point where we feel yes we could release this so possibly hopefully maybe in a year's time. Yeah. Fantastic. There's an interesting question from Xavier pursuing a PhD in Scotland addressing nation branding within the context of Palestine. Interested to know from a design perspective how would you visualize a nation brand, the context of, of Palestine. Interesting question. I don't really believe in nation branding. I think, you know, nation branding is very much using a lot of these invented traditions in order to make it look like you had this kind of history and you sell it's sort of how and Burberry is associated with the UK or Italy or, you know, an Italian design and design is very much a very good tool to use this for for nation branding, you know, you use certain icons in order to define the nation. And we already have some of these within Palestine and I do kind of, but they are very much tied to the struggle so like if you begin to build a free Palestine what happens to that iconography. That's the question that I would be interested in tackling rather than okay what does the flag look like. Because it's just because so much of that imagery is tied to this context that we are in right now. And then I guess when you have returned when you're free. Does it make sense does it become like, you know, I think we do have it always go back to this Edward Said quote which is so important that war of images now, of course people think that Israeli propaganda is quite effective and from a branding and design perspective it's not. It's quite poor. But I think what they have is other things they have, you know, they have large centers that like, you know, here right near here is JW three the Jewish Cultural Center. There are these, you know, we don't have these. And now I've lost my train of thought sorry oh yes I think but the thing is is that, even though it's bad, what we're countering with isn't any better. You know, and so it's, it's almost stereotypical to think of what comes out of of Palestinian cultural production. Not all of it of course it's come a very long way in the past few years but I still think we are losing that war and images even within what was going on in May June. Even within the social media posts, a lot of it was I'm showing you what is going on but how do people respond to these images you know what images do they actually respond to. So you had some designers from Jordan like what she who did the safe, safe safe poster. You had a few kind of presses over here that were giving, giving away riso prints of Palestine posters you had a very famous designer called Sarah Boris who created this print. This print of Palestine and that's that's someone who's not Palestinian. But these things were effective for communities who aren't Palestinian who were in you know and they were, they were beautiful pieces that people would put on their wall. Rather than just kind of just what the stereotype would be oh you have the key you have the flag you have the woman it's like let's, how do we move beyond these and create a new visual language for Palestine in one of the questions that is in the game. But anyway I'm kind of ranting at the same time I think it's a much bigger question, but a very interesting one. So there was one question which is the first iteration of the game at mosaic rooms but at moments of heightened emotions and disagreements. How did you both as facilitators address these disagreements so probably the question is around the moderator. And, yeah, and then someone in you know somehow in response to what you said, just now the examples of games developed by designers movement seemed to target a much younger age, and to be designed for production at scale is there a possibility that this game becomes a more standalone product that can be explained to an eight year old, etc. So maybe, you know, but the first question around you know disagreements, emotions, rising tension, etc would be would be interesting to answer. I had a very brief one, and I think it came towards the end I can't recall a question we asked but I think it was. I think it was around police. And one of the attendees was like yes more police, and then other attendees were like what are you talking about so there was this moment where they were like well police does xyz why would you say more police. And I kind of gave it a second and realized that he never thought about what the other attendees said and he's like oh I didn't think that police was bad in that way and so he kind of in a way was diffused another another brief moment was someone used Ramadan as an example. And one of the attendees I assume was was like a Christian and said, you know that that Palestine has Christians and then she's like I know I'm not referring. I'm not referring to Palestine just having Muslims. And he's like, yeah but you know there are Christians or so he kind of pushed it. And then everybody, but it was it was really polite, I think in the way that they explained no she's just referring to Ramadan as an example. So, in a way we kind of I think everybody was respectful enough not to let it get to a point where it was, you know there was these big arguments, let's take it outside. And, but like at the same time I sort of said okay why do you think that, you know because I was genuinely interested in why this person was was saying this about the police and was saying this about like you know, the the Ramadan example. Yeah, I was just going to say I think there is definitely a few moments within the group that I was facilitating where there is. There's particularly two people who just kept on like squaring off but again it was respectful, but it was just interesting to see I think because because also I know them personally. So it's interesting to see how much their, their professions informed. I think their, their vision of processes of what would happen at a moment of conflict. So one of the points of tension was was something about the process of assisting refugees coming back. So what would it look like step by step to get someone from like. Lebanon to come back into Palestine like what would be provided for them at the airport, or what kind of supplies would they be greeted with to them bring them in. What would what would that look like so there's disagreements I think about a lot of logistics, the prioritization of certain items. There's also lots of. I think a lot of, I think, a generative conversation around the climate crisis. How do we think of return in the climate crisis. What would that do to the agriculture, all these things so I think there is different topics that I think where a lot of people came together and then there are some especially around class, where there's a lot of different approaches to. And the other person was like both people, you know if people who are millionaires and billionaires don't want to redistribute their wealth that's when like there has to be consequences for that, because they're harming society, and another person said well we need to sit down and you know go through rehabilitation process with, you know, financial redistributions of some sorts. And so it was really interesting to see that and like then I was trying to go okay well, can you give us an example of like what that would look like to you why you would go that way. Because yeah I think again that that was. I think for many, including then and I, these were the first time this, like many of these questions, speaking about them with people was the first time that we were actually going through it meticulously. And it was also just as generative for us to sit to sit with them. It will be fascinating when you, when you, you do a couple of more, or even more than a couple of events and see what you come up with, and how you're going to put it together. So the question about whether you could turn the paper medium to a digital medium or rather a more virtual objects and and another associated question is whether you could do 3D physical objects and the way they can impact on an everlasting memories and provide strong experience so maybe then I can answer that from her design kind of background, but also your most welcome to come. Thank you for asking for your emails. I'm getting bombart. So the digital one, I mean, it is, it's, it's very possible, right, absolutely anything is possible but I think the idea is that you're building connections throughout this process of meeting people in real life you're able to see their body language fully you know we've said two years where I'm a medium shot. You know there's a lot of loss through that. It's not not entirely possible to do this online, but I think a big part of it for us was this community that you create the space that you go to, and that you engage with people. And yeah, I think there's a lot to be, I think with a discussion based game, it is much easier to do it in person because what I can't imagine doing it on the computer I think if it becomes a digital thing. I don't think it can be replicated as a model directly onto that I think it has to be adjusted to fit to be more interactive. And what that is is something that I were not exploring I think we're just going to stick with with this way of doing it. If somebody wants to take that and translate it into an interactive digital experience that moves beyond a set of cards with themes. I think that that's more than more than welcome. I can't recall the physicality question and I'm very bad with zoom Q&A. The 3D it was a question around, how could you use the 3D? I think more importance could be stressed on the 3D physical objects and the way they can impact on everlasting memories and experiences. There's definitely questions that are around, you know, the built environment, you know, I'm assuming this is an architecture question urbanism. And so there are many questions about that because of course the built environment has affected the Palestinians perception. And does does affect them greatly and would in the future so I don't know if the question is framed around. Does the game consider the built environment, or if you're referring to one of the projects that we were showing that looks at the 3D modeling of return, which I think is a very interesting concept in terms of if you return to your village how do you modernize it again is important but I think is quite, I think we felt is still a very sort of narrow view of return and we wanted to be more expansive with that. Okay, someone is asking about the comparison with South Africa, and someone else and whether you know, you know, like Palestinians many South Africans lived in different parts of the world, and whether the imagination of return was kind of a post apartheid. It was interesting, you, you, you talked about wall as the appetite wall so maybe there are connections there and whether people talked about this in the game. But another interesting question which is probably invitation to you is listening to the description of the game creates the impression that this could be a platform for strategic and creative planning. This would seem very significant endeavor in light of very few limited, but growing success on the question of independence of Palestine. Well, I don't know whether there's any kind of success on that one. But do you want to comment on both questions. I suppose for the South African question. It's interesting because I think there's many South Africa, I suppose it's which which South African do you ask if you want to ask about what post apartheid looks like. I think many would still argue that apartheid still exists just in a very potentially in a different refashioned manner. I think it's potentially also taking lessons from that from the truth and reconciliation process and seeing what in what ways was was South African liberation commodified to make it more palatable for certain investors. But yes, there is there is a lot of commonality between a South African experience of apartheid and a Palestinian experience of apartheid but there's also many differences. And I think in those differences that's where we can take lessons from each other. But it wasn't really brought up, at least in my group at all, unless it wasn't in your standard. No, I think, I think it's interesting that that it is mentioned because I attended a talk I don't remember maybe it was about two years ago but I remember it was just saying you know, we make an overemphasizing the uniqueness of the similarity we just talk about apartheid and that it's much more participated in that, you know, there are more cases that are similar to Palestine and that apartheid is just, you know, more useful people understand it. And I found that really interesting and I think that there's, there is movement away from that, because there was, you know, these kind of just copy paste type of similarities without really understanding context. It did not come up at all during the discussion actually. So in reference to the other, I think it was more of a comment. Absolutely I think this is what we do envision for this game I think it's a great. Thank you very much for that comment because that's that's sort of where we hope to see it I mean obviously this is going to. We hope it goes beyond us right is something that we put out into the world and then what people do with it is out of our hands in a way. It's actually very exciting actually. There's someone also suggesting another way Alessandro who says, found it interesting echoes with Bill Hockbird becoming Palestinian, and the concept of archive of Futurity, the material that you are collecting through the game be seen as an archive of Futurity. And I think that works as a source of imagination of an unknown future by returning to or re questioning the present. So, it might be something so Bill Hock becoming Palestinian I think it's, I don't know what I wonder whether the book has been published but I have heard of it. It has been published I think quite recently. All right, that's that's interesting. Someone is always asking whether in line with the nation, identity, what is the period you will be building the identity on, you know. So it's a question related to the NACBA and identity and post NACBA consequences or before NACBA, trying to link Palestinians with Canonite period. Did you did you come across people talking about the NACBA or the post NACBA people talking about, you know, historical, historical memory in different ways. Yeah, I think one of the questions was around, you know, how do you, what, what memorials do you build? Yeah. And I can't recall the exact conversation. I don't know if that was one of the questions that was actually picked out it is one of the questions that we developed in the game. And I think there was maybe at least three submissions around that because it was like okay well our whole identity is based on resistance. When you don't have to resist anything anyway, how do you sort of document this resistance, what do you do with it? How do you historically, how do you remember historically but then also how do Israelis remember also that was that was something that came up during during the discussion with my group. And because obviously, you know, I think most people were on the page that this is this is a nation that would encompass everyone, you know, and how do they, how would they feel about seeing these symbols in the great Palestine and it was it was an interesting conversation that I think I wonder if it would come up again and you know what other groups would say about it. I think such, I want to link this question with the question that was asked about becoming Palestine because I think that was such a beautiful way of framing the game. I think, I think with the actual, there are many questions I think submitted to us about the aesthetics and infrastructure of what that space would look like in return. I think as Dan had just mentioned, how do we, how do we commemorate how do we have then the chance to archive without a razor, that's something that settler colonialism robs us and others of. How do we, you know, obviously archives of ours have been obliterated in or stolen and continue to be held in Israeli state archives. So what happens then when there's that movement between. There's no longer the theft, and then there can now be a consolidation. And I think, and I think yeah there's, there's a lot of concern I think about the materiality of the land itself and the kind of environment that we would be living in. And I think there was an influx of that and then there's a lack of questions around governance. So I thought that was quite, or so I thought that was quite funny seeing I think you know where does imagination lead us to and then oftentimes it's not towards I think policy which in of itself I think is, is quite a revealing thing. So I think as well this archiving of futurity I mean yeah absolutely. That's, that's I think one of our, one of our main aims, I think is, and that's why we encourage players to, to document this and that they that is comfortable and that they choose to it's because that this is these conversations are important. And this ceremony is an important method, and it's one that's often been under, under ascribed and undervalued systematically in favor of textual evidence which in of itself is a settler colonial method. So I think it's negotiating all of these things I think, don't know if they answered the question but I just thought those are really great points. Yeah, I think it's, it's really nice and I kind of going back to that I did the question about 3D modeling and the, and when we were talking about, you know, if you look at a lot of the techno futures that are developed now and we mentioned the metaverse is that despite these look, you know, we're looking into the future you look at everything and the gender relations and social relations and labor relations are still the same. So you're not actually imagining a future that is any different from what we have now. And I think this for us is like, okay, if you're going to build a 3D model of something. Are you following the same standards within architecture, for example that exists or are you going to go against these and think about what works, you know, because we all know that the built environment is made by men and for a world for men. Right. And it's a Palestine that is that we re envision a Palestine the built environment of Palestine what does that consider does that consider, you know, principles of feminist architecture, things like that so I think these are. This is what we're trying to push through with these questions. And at the same time this idea of an archive, because it's, I think many people who we envision played this game were never asked these questions about Palestine and they would never have a say in what Palestine would be. And we know very well that leadership and people who create policy are incredibly unimaginative. You know, I don't think it was a, it was, I think it was fate that I saw Matt Hancock today, you know, 1000 sort of extremely underwhelming and you know there's there is no imagination there is no thought there. And so bringing these together in some form of what do what do they say what do they bring and. Yeah, I think that's quite, I think that's a great way to describe it. That's fantastic. So there is a comment saying, following on imagining a future within part contain an element of planning in addition to forming a part of planning itself, and someone is asking whether you have thought about archiving the game. Or whether, as a, and another one as a Palestinian living in Haifa, can you organize something there. So for Palestinians with Israeli IDs. So, you know, questions to to think about. And I think the question about the gender difference, I think you, you kind of talked about because you. So the question, do you see any gender difference in interpretation of the game by the players. I think one of the questions was that was in the game is looks at like what would we do with family relations like what would they look like what would kinship look like what would, you know, in what ways would how would we tackle patriarchy. You know, it's it's definitely, we hope that the game addresses every dimension of society. Because I think there's often that kind of dialectical approach to it which is liberation, then all of the other things. And I think with this we're trying to resituate that and go liberation does not come after it is, it is a, it is a result of working through those things. So, so yes, I definitely do think there would be a huge gender difference in interpretation, the more that we bring this out, and the more different kinds of people who play it, especially with ages in different genders themselves. Yeah. And what about taking it for Palestinians with an Israeli ID. And that would be a great opportunity for us and I think would inform the game in so many different ways that we, again, again, the context is literally everything, you know, that's a huge part of my own work. And I think that that's, you know, wherever we take this wherever we can take this. I think we'll only make this better and absolutely we would love to do it there. If we are given the opportunity of course understanding there probably a lot of risks you know I think it's these. I wouldn't underestimate these things. It may seem like kind of a silly thing as an event that's taking place but actually it is extremely powerful when you exercise your imagination to imagine different worlds and worlds. It's an amazing possibility, but there are two questions very quick one one is that was saying he likes it. I don't know whether was a male or female but I like the idea that the imagination moves away from the contemporary world and things about the utopian you know, imagining governance. I think it's a game. Why not let people enjoy and think of innovative and crazy and interesting space, which is interesting, but you know that brings perhaps the question of why the game. And is the room to reimagine the game in the future for instance is the game capable of sustaining new questions have you added different or tweaked existing questions based off the answers during the game. You know so you could answer those and perhaps perhaps as a note of kind of ending to re emphasize why, why the game, you know, the importance of the game and the way that you have thought about it. You know it's a political it's it's cultural it's political it's social possibilities but and link it to the contemporary time you know the time that we are living in perhaps that'll be interesting to talk about. Yeah, I think we hope people can imagine things that I mean it's funny because what some people think is quite utopian is actually very realistic I mean there's a lot of things that we're living through now that we would never thought possible 40 years ago. But but we've, I guess since the 1970s you see people that are more about incremental reform and they are about actual kind of revolution and structural change and we hope that this game enables that shift. So in terms of, you know, as my, as my my practice as a design academic as a designer is is always iterative you know when you create something that's always. It's never for you it's always for for a user and that user uses in ways that you know you envision a way someone uses something and then they end up using it in a different way. And without that research of how people use and you can think about when software is in beta. It's in beta because it's seeing how you're using your thumbs what do you understand the language to the colors make sense is there are their bugs. And this is how we're really approaching the game in that way. And only through kind of trialing it with events and reflecting on what we've done. We have, you know, we had the contributions from, I can't recall how many questions we received we received quite a lot, but we also had our own bank of questions. And we have about 63 questions, I believe, ideally we can get to 100 and constantly sort of shuffle them I mean already after we played we realized, maybe the phrasing on this one needs to change. Maybe this one is too similar to this one. So there's always these these changes and of course that's probably going to, you know, as I said in the instructions is that if players are playing a game they feel actually I could rephrase this. They can do that, you know, because it's not it's not fixed. Well, that's fantastic. So if we, I think. So what is your favorite game chat similar message as a new game other similar games for the Balkan woman. I think that that might be out of, you know, out of the range of the discussion. But may I ask, you know, again to, you know, perhaps to end with a with a summary. I just want to say that has been wonderful. I mean, it's such an exciting presentation and discussion. And for me opened up a lot of perspectives, and I'm sure that, you know, it has to be for the audience for the people who came so thank you for the audience as well for your question, but perhaps, you know, you focus on Edward Said and the post, you know, and perhaps you could reemphasize how, you know, why this is relevant in this contemporary moment. Okay. I'm happy. I'm happy to say something very quickly but I want to give you the. We can we'll both go we'll both share it. It's because we're there we are witnessing an attack on the imagination from all sides. And there is, you know, we have to reclaim it and I think that's kind of the the shortest answer I can give you for me I think that's, it's one of the most powerful tools, it's this. Yeah, there's a war on it for a reason, because it is powerful it helps us imagine and these ideas can hopefully become a reality. Thanks, Sara. Um, yeah, just I think to extending from Dennis answer, I think to understand that their colonialism is to understand that it's not just the land it's, it's the collective memory, it's the, it's the, it's what creates culture which that of literature, prose, poetry, film, these things matter and being able to produce these things matter. And those are things that are equally under attack. To erase a people is not just to get rid of the physical body, it's to get rid of the memory, the ability for someone to point and go, that's me. That's where I come from. And I think that's why being able to use our imagination to produce things is so critical because it's a way of self and collective formation. And it allows us to disagree and to provide difference. And I think that's what Edward Said was so brilliant at doing. And I mean, he was someone who studied literature. That's what led to culture and imperialism. That's what led to Orientalism was studying the cultural production of empire and then having that inform his theory and his practice. And I think that's something that we really still need to take a look at today and in our own cultural production. Thank you, that is amazing. And I was thinking of the hashtag at Imagination Matters or at Imagining Palestinian Futures Matters. You can take that. Yeah, we need to think of a hashtag, I think. That's a very good idea. Yeah, at Black Lives Matter, why not? You know, why not say at Imagination Matters? But really, I mean, this has been so exciting and wonderful. And I'm sure, you know, you have infused our audience. And for sharing emails, it's up to you. People can look you up and find your email on Google and they can send you an email and share ideas. But we're really looking forward to the second event and maybe we can hold it at So Us. Yeah, that would be great. And I hope that if the forum was shared, that's a way for people to reach out to us as well. Yeah, yeah. So thank you both. That was fantastic and really interesting and looking forward to other projects, which are ongoing. But basically, it's a great initiative and thanks for starting it. Thank you and thank you for giving us this space to share it. And thank you very much to the audience for your wonderful questions. Thanks, Hall. Take care, bye-bye all. Bye-bye.