 Good afternoon everybody I'm starting on time today because I have a we have a long introduction and people Generally start coming in around five after two so That's fine, but we but I will begin. I'm Elizabeth Sackler and I would like to welcome you to part two of our spring series of states of denial the illegal incarceration of women children and people of color I Don't know why but I wrote this light-hearted Limerick this morning to begin a very serious afternoon On the second day of spring and it's still cold here at the Brooklyn Museum bringing art to the world to be see them and With states of denial and all of its guile we seek justice That sure ain't plebeian All our programming of states of denial is very close to the bone We have brought in Attica then and now we've had women come in and talk about how they birthed in shackles and we've heard the horrors of juvenile imprisonment and more in one year actually we have brought in Seven programs, which is almost 20 hours of public discussions about the truths of incarceration and the absolute necessity To fight the strategically built system of mass incarceration That disenfranchises and as we know permanently eliminates entire populations across this country Schools have become feeders to prisons Children are sentenced to life without parole They will grow up. They will grow old and they will die in prison and people of conscience both Political prisoners and others our political prisoners and others are Disappeared and all of this is a multi-billion dollar Business and this must stop all our programs are online So please tell your friends and other people who want to learn or people you know who ought to learn About what's going on in our front and backyards, and it is going on in our front and backyards if you go to www Brooklyn Museum Dot org slash EAS CFA Slash video you will see all of our programs over the last year And what you will see right now, and I'm very proud of it is that the entire video home page of the Sackler Center Website is all states of denial programming, and I think that's really important So if you are a member of an organization These programs will assist you in fundraising they will assist you in friend raising and they will certainly Assist you in consciousness raising so I invite you please to check it out This is a very formidable museum and encyclopedic museum and I Thank this museum and the board because I have the opportunity to educate our communities about injustice Injustice that is beyond the pale it is the intersection of art and activism That is so potent here at the Brooklyn Museum Malcolm Gladwell wrote in his book David and Goliath, and I quote the excessive use of force creates legitimacy problems and Force without legitimacy Leads to defiance not submission We will begin today's program with a short but very powerful work of art a Seven-minute film called the Black Panthers Revisited that I saw on the Times website by filmmaker in 2002 MacArthur genius award Stanley Nelson and Stanley's credits are long and very important, and I'm going to save the outstanding bio For an autumn program when I hope we will be hosting him and screening his full-length film The Black Panthers Vanguard of the Revolution, which was this year an official selection At the Sundance Film Festival and will be released this coming fall. I chose Gladwell's quote and Nelson's film to set the stage for Susan Rosenberg So please join me in watching Stanley Nelson's The Black Panthers revisited The stories in the news today Remind me of the sentiments of almost 50 years ago when many young black people felt that policing for them was unfair During that time period being black in America meant that you didn't walk down the street with the same sense of safety And the same sense of privilege as a white person There was absolutely no difference in the way the police treated us in in Mississippi than they did in California They may not have called you nigger every day, but they treated you the same way. They did in Mississippi Pull these jump on you eat you up put the gun at you here This is what we were going through on a daily basis Now as then the need for change is real Nearly every black man. I know has a story about an encounter with the police I myself have been stopped searched and had a gun put to my head for no rational reason One response to police brutality in 1966 was the founding of the Black Panther Party for self-defense We use the Black Panther as our symbol because the nature of panther panther doesn't strike anyone but When he's a sail upon that he'll back up first, but if the aggressor continues then he'll strike out when I first met He was about it. They were in the process of forming an organization For primarily self-defense. We didn't plan to have a nationwide Organization anything like that. We were organizing dealing with the problems in Oakland in 1966 California law allowed civilians to carry loaded weapons as long as they were not concealed as do many states today and The newly formed Black Panther Party took advantage of the law the California Penal Code section 12 0 20 through 12 0 27 and also the second amendment of the Constitution guarantees the citizen a right to bear arms on public property Here we said we're gonna carry our guns and we're gonna follow the police and If they stop someone We're gonna stop we're gonna maintain a legal distance and we're gonna observe the so-called law Performance of their duty We would stop we would get out of the cars we would walk up to the scene Those who had rifles would carry them in the open. I'm clearly visible We would stand at a Distance where the police couldn't say they were interfering with their arrest or their detention of the individual and Make sure that there was no brutality The police were confronted by citizens who were not just voicing their opinions but were armed they would Take the weapon and pass it across like this and it would sweep power over right over the officer No one would do anything until a policeman ejected around in the chamber Then we would all eject rounds in the chamber and all up and down the street. You can hear this And then when the traffic stop or the incidents over They bring the weapon down across by you like this and get back in their car and drive off It was pretty intimidating The Black Panther Party spread quickly partly because young African-Americans across the country had similar experiences with the police We would get calls from Atlanta Nashville Raleigh, North Carolina from Washington, DC Bridgeport, Connecticut every city small or large you can think of wanted a chapter of the Black Panther Party There's no question that the Panthers were provocative But there's also no question the law enforcement exaggerated the threat they posed and overreacted Do you feel the nation is in trouble? I think very definitely is What is the answer? The answer is vigorous law enforcement That's the only answer that's the only answer How about justice you hear a lot about justice with law enforcement justice is merely an incidental to law and order FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover today asserted that the Black Panthers represent the greatest internal threat to the nation Hoover said the Panthers have perpetrated numerous assaults on police and have engaged in violent Confrontations throughout the country when Hoover identified the Black Panther Party as the number one threat to the National security of the United States at a time when they're fighting in Vietnam, you know, of course that was crazy but it was politically very effective and It says to law enforcement at the local level. We can take the gloves off now We don't have to respect the civil liberties and we can go after them with everything we got Police say there was sniper fire throughout the early morning hours So they moved in cautiously and then began to clash in Houston, New Orleans and other cities The Black Panther Police didn't leave on hours in Chicago today. Police and Negroes fought a pitch Obviously, we are nowhere near this today. In fact, we may be at a transformative moment People of all ages and races are recognizing the problems with policing in black communities and our protesting Now there's a chance for real change But police departments and political leaders must not overreact as they did 50 years ago They need to listen 1666 I remember it well And the only disagreement I have here is that the police didn't overreact the police did exactly what The FBI wanted them to which is to take out the Black Panthers And it was a sad day but We are here today, and we are here together and I guess I'm here in hope I'm delighted to introduce the program prison women and change with Susan Rosenberg political prisoner turned writer and teacher and Nageshi Taifa senior policy analyst with the open society Together they will tackle How movements for change and justice have developed over the last 25 years What women's leadership has meant for present the prison movement and how mass incarceration has continued the long history of racism in American life Susan's bio Susan's human rights and prisoners rights advocate Lecturer consultant award-winning writer speaker and a formerly incarcerated person her memoir and American Radical which there are a few copies here and are for sale, and I Encourage you to purchase it Details her 16 years in federal prison. She was released from prison in 2001 through an executive clemency by the then President Bill Clinton upon her release she worked at the American Jewish World Service for 12 years as a writer and then director of communications Post AJWS Susan worked in the with the NGOs focused on human rights She is founder of sync it communications focused on the international Human rights and criminal justice. She is an adjunct lecturer at Hunter College a member of the prison writing committee of panamerica and Susan has spoken widely on prison issues and is currently at work on another book Nigechi taifa is a native Washingtonian. I haven't met many native Washingtonians. We're kind of unusual breeds I'm a native New Yorker, so this is kind of in it is a social justice attorney activist author who serves a senior policy award analyst as as senior policy award Policy analyst excuse me for civil and criminal justice reform at the Open Society Foundation to advance federal criminal justice policy reform She was found the founding director of the Howard University School of Laws award-winning equal justice program and adjunct professor at Howard Law and American University College of Law as a private Practitioner she represented adults and juvenile clients before the Superior Court of the District of Columbia and has written and spoken Extensively on issues of civil and human rights and criminal and civil justice reform She received her Juris doctorate from George Washington University Law School in a BA from Howard University and Before inviting our speakers to join me on the stage I'm going to take a few minutes to read from an American radical Susan's book Mid-book Susan cites the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights Article 5 quote No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment She then continues mid chapter Step out. They ordered. I was handcuffed and told spread This meant facing the wall and stretching out my arms and legs I was patted down and told to stand next to the door Four of them went in they searched every single thing. They unscrewed the light bulbs They climbed on the top bunk and looked at the windowsill and they went through every legal and personal paper one by one They dragged the mattress onto the tier. They took the shampoo and talcum powder and poured them on the mattress They scooped they took scooped peanut butter from an old jar and smeared it on my personal photographs They uncuffed me put me back inside shut the door and repeated the process in every cell down the line Everyone was yelling in the cells that hadn't been hit yet. Women were standing and watching The violence seemed to increase with each cell and then they got to the last three cells They popped open the door and one of them roared step out the woman inside was brushing her teeth One of them stepped in and grabbed her. She spit out her mouth full of toothpaste and saliva on him If they had waited 10 seconds more, she would have stepped out on her own, but she was disobeying orders So four of them began to beat her up with all the rest of us watching This small woman fought back Everyone was hollering and throwing things out of their windows and egg went flying and hit one of the guards Four of them dragged that woman up the stairs and into the entrance of the block The cops had bloodlust in their eyes in the hall. They couldn't get the cuffs on to her her fury matched theirs Eventually they overpowered her and carried her off. I had never seen that level of brutality Directed against a woman We were all crying from anger frustration and fear and yet in the DC jail. It was almost normal It was not extreme a little more brutal than usual, but only a little To administer by fear and control by terror was a tactic that was understood By the prisoners. It was a natural way of life inside or outside. I cried Because I didn't know how to resist that level of dehumanization Please join me in welcoming Susan Rosenberg Taifa, thank you So, thank you very much Elizabeth Sackler I really loved the way you opened up and really loved the clip that you show From the upcoming film dealing with that Black Panthers vanguard of the of the party I really want to thank the Elizabeth Sackler Center for Feminist art here at the Brooklyn Museum and for the series this phenomenal series That really brings to the public very very important issues and people's Susan I know I mean it really has been nearly 30 years really about 28 years when we first met yep at the DC jail I would say and you and an orange jumpsuit and Chains and shackles and me as part of the legal defense team But I just want to go back a little bit if I can just what is it that will bring a Susan Rosenberg? To the DC jail to Lexington to Mariana to Dan Berry. What is it that motivated you that inspired you that? Politicized you to take on this whole a life of activism that you have been a part of Always that's always the first question right so You know I answer it differently in different times because I lived and grew up in a time that There was so much going on that could motivate one to become an activist and a revolutionary. I think You know, I grew up in New York as Elizabeth was talking about in a very in a moment a unique moment of Sort of liberalism there was the war in Vietnam my parents were very liberal they were Democrats and They were actually left of of being, you know, Democrats. They were progressive. There was the anti nuclear movement There were all kinds of things the 50s had ended and the 60s began and there was this big Opening in the society and there was worldwide social struggles. So I was really I grew up in that time And was very impacted by a lot of things, but you know why I don't know when I was a little child. I Felt people suffering and I really Experienced and I had an empathy about that kind of suffering. So when I was really little, you know I would see people in the New York City who were in poverty and I would be completely freaked out by that and You know, I think kind of one Sensitivity about injustice led me to another and the times meshed with that. So I was in high school during The Panther 21 trial the New York City Panther 21 trial Which was this really major political trial that I'm sure is in the film in some way And I was 15 and I went to the courthouse During this trial and there were sharpshooters all around the courthouse And you know, it was kind of looking at what the government could do and was doing And so there were a lot of a lot of things that motivated me the war in Vietnam I think was another really critical thing that many of us responded to we were watching our Government destroy people on television with napalm and you know, this is not new people who've been talking about the 60s Have talked about this already, but it you know, it just penetrated My entire being You know Susan I understand that you went to school with a brother of James Cheney one of the three Civil rights workers who were murdered in Mississippi That's cool. I mean Tell us a little bit about that and whether that had anything to do with the Shaping of your political consciousness and this whole sensitivity totally justice. Totally. Yes, it did I mean, I went to a school that was called Walden like, you know, the pond and It was a progressive school and it was very involved in the community at that time it was in New York on the Upper West Side and Andrew Goodman who was one of the civil rights workers who was killed in Mississippi in 1964 had been a student there and His family his brother was in the school a younger brother who was still in the school and When he was killed in Mississippi in 64 I was in that school and it had a huge enormous impact that somebody that I knew Had taken an act of solidarity with the black movement at that time and had suffered the ultimate Consequences for that and it absolutely impacted all of us And I think then what what happened was a complicated thing that raises a lot of things about Racism and the north versus the south, but the school banded together and the board of the school and they did a big fundraising campaign and brought James Cheney and Mrs. Cheney who were the what? And I'm sure now I can't remember his brother's name who one of the civil rights workers who was slain with Andrew Goodman To come to live in New York and they had been in Mississippi They were from Mississippi and so his brother became a very good friend of mine and watching his Experience of being brought from the south to the north, you know where this whole traumatic Situation had just been occurring with their lives and their family in Mississippi had a very big impact I think and what happened with Ben Cheney. I'm sorry. I couldn't read Ben Cheney Ben Cheney went on and actually also joined the Black Panther Party when we were in high school So one thing kind of really led to another You know we both were Born really around the time of the mid 50s I should say and I just recall very vividly looking in the library of my parents den There was this book called a pictorial history of the Negro in America and I saw a picture there of a young black boy 14 years old who had been from Chicago who was in Mississippi Visiting relatives and he was found at the bottom of Mississippi's Tallahatchie River. His name was Emmett Till and it was that image that really Left an indelible print on my mind in terms of injustice in society and that it was not a very long time ago It was during my lifetime and I'm just wondering from your specific heritage and ethnic Background in the light. I remember reading in your book You I don't know if it's your grandmother or some elders arm you saw with some marks And you were very young at the time and you question her about it. Can you tell us about that? Yes, sure. I mean I I grew up in a Jewish household and while my parents were from had been born in the U.S other people in my family had been impacted by the Holocaust and So I grew up with a consciousness about People's people being attacked for who they are and you know what the role of genocide was in the in the Jewish in the history of Jewish people over the 20th century and so I had that frame of reference and And knew about that and you know while it wasn't the main thing it did I think from an early time inculcate a sense of Anger and and fury at injustice of all of all types But it also was a way then for me to understand racism in the United States And so the experience that I knew about and had had sort of in a second-hand way in my family Really did frame things and later when I was in prison, you know the the whole I I Spent some time in in a control unit, which I'm sure we'll talk a little more about but I I did have access to some books during that period and while I was in this control unit Experimental unit. I read a lot of history of the Holocaust I discovered Primo Levi who just completely changed my life and my thinking about the the Second World War Genocide the role that people play in their own oppression and repression so I had a I have a lot of connection to that Before we get to Lexington and prison all I'm still exploring some of your background in the like and Maybe connections to now. I know when I was a youth growing up. It wasn't uncommon To walk down the street and at the bus stop because there were no Metros at least I'm watching DC and in those days at the bus stop seeing someone standing there with a Copy of the autobiography of Malcolm X under their arm or man-child in the promised land or something along those lines There was there was a lot of consciousness of the youth. I'm talking about teenagers At that time teach you see anything similar from your growing up during the 60s and if so or if not what similarities or differences do you see with the youth of today? Versus the youth of yesterday and the issues of today vis-a-vis the issues of yesterday Well, yeah, I saw the same thing that you saw. I mean in New York City people were I mean There really was this major Movement going on that was a social and political and cultural movement that affected everybody So I remember when man-child in the promised land came out, you know, that was an amazing book and people were reading it Columbia I lived in New York and the student strike and the student struggles that were going on at Columbia University and an NYU Impacted people who lived in the city, you know impacted me as a high school anti-war activist. So people were there was a an explosion of of Liberation impulses Liberatory impulses from all over the society and all over the world. So yeah, it was a very amazing Kind of time. It was also a time when there was the backlash and the real intensification of US imperialism, right? So there was the coup in Chile there was what happened in Iran there was a ongoing lease stuff that was going on with the Vietnam War there was African liberation struggles beginning to To expand, you know what throughout Africa. So all of that could be felt in the street It wasn't it wasn't some abstraction. It was like right. It was like right next to you. So I think that there because it was a movement and people could join something and there were Organizations and there was ideas of a very expansive set of ideas That were engaging people There was a practice that evolved of radical activism and in that sense I don't it's been a slow It's been a slow move from from what happened as a result of the Defeats of those movements and the setbacks and the changes globally I think to now where we are seeing again. We're beginning to see this and it's totally exciting it's it's you know, I teach at Hunter and We are doing a class in memoir and People in my class are reading Malcolm X You know as one of the possible readings for this class and they have not read Malcolm X before they're reading a Sada Shakur They haven't read her book They're reading Sophia Bukari. They're reading the you know The memoirs and the writings now of people who wrote from their experiences in the 60s and 70s and 80s And I think you know as it showed in the film Black Lives Matter is is there is something about and I agree with Elizabeth I think the police are the state police. They're the political police and that's what they do And that's what they're supposed to do and they've been doing it all along You know, there's a study by the MXG Malcolm X grassroots movement that has done a whole Analysis of police and the role of police and there's a black person killed every 28 hours in this country by police Forces or paramilitary or other kind of state forces. That's an amazingly Horrible numbers. So yes, I think there is a similarity. I think it's a harder time Because the the contradictions in the world are so much more complicated and harder to understand but people are furious Just watching the clip with the juxtaposition of the Black Lives Matter movement juxtaposed against the Black Panther Party movement of the past Really shows it. We're talking about a continuum, you know, the struggle continues as the mantra we used to say You know back in the day Something happened though to stop that growing movement at least for a long while. I know drugs were poured into the communities and The music was not quite as conscious as it was in the past I know that the FBI had a one secret illegal program called the Cointel Pro Where and one of their goals was to stop the long-range growth of militant Black nationalist organizations, especially among the youth and they said the specific targets Specific tactics would be devised to stop that growth So when I saw and see what's happening today with Black Lives Matter when I just heard over the Email not too long ago that there was going to be a meeting of the minds and Sessions between veterans from the past from the movements of the past and the new growing movement among the youth today It made me feel Inspired and you know, you were one of those veterans of the past Susan and your book An American radical radical Yeah, an American radical political prisoner in my own country your book has been described as moving as riveting as mesmerizing as terrifying as Howering as powerful is described in in all of those ways rightfully so and I recall your book starts with You being on the New Jersey term pike in a 20 foot U-Haul truck with I don't know how many hundreds of pounds or whatever of weapons in and Explosives tell us your story You Well, you know, that's part of why I wrote the book so I just want to answer that but I yeah my story well Okay, I Think you know take a deep breath. Yeah, I know I will You know, there there's a lot to everybody's story and there's a lot to my story I think it's you know, what what is the moment the break with Saying that the that the current status quo cannot stay the same and that one must take Action in your life to make that change and it's different at different times for different people But I reached that point in my life where I made a decision to say I'm going to Join a revolutionary movement for revolutionary change. That's what I believed in That's what I thought was going to happen in this country And I wasn't that different than many many thousands of people at this in this current in that period of time And there was a war that was going on and you referred to it as the counterintelligence program We didn't exactly know what was going on But it we experienced it that way and by the time I was in my Early 20s, I was involved with people who were in the Black Panther Party and in the Young Lords Party And who were fighting for community control of health care in the Bronx and in other places and being involved in the anti-war movement and so there were there were all of these Struggles that were very serious and very radical about trying to take power trying to challenge the society at its roots Right radical. That's what it means so I think you know kind of one thing led me to another and I got involved with and supported Black Panthers who wanted to wage a Self-defense but to organize and and create the capacity to fight the state You know to really do that and so I joined Organizations that supported that and and worked toward that and in I Was indicted in a case that I talk about in my book That's a very still a very prominent and awful case in New York State And I I I decided not to go to trial in that case I didn't feel that it would be Advantages for me and because I was already leaning in the direction to say I'm not going to support the status quo in any way I went underground at that time. What does that mean go underground would you? Well, it doesn't mean the subway, which is something that you know people really think It means taking like taking your life away from the public it means Literally changing your identity. It means adopting another identity But really more importantly than that what it means is it says it's trying to say we were trying to say that You can't only work in the public to make change, right? You have to be able to move away from the surveillance state if you're going to be able to organize, right? Because that's what we were really trying to do and that's part of why I think it's so much harder now is Because the level of we live with a technology that makes radical politics of Really very public no matter what you do So being underground but part of it and I talk about this in my book being underground by the time I went underground which was late in the in this period of radicalism and social movements We were very isolated it we were very small in number and we had very little resources And so we were very like we really were isolated in in our little Apartments doing our little illegal work that we were doing and you know part of why you join a social movement Is because you want to make change because of your humanity Because you want to engage with humanity and organize and being underground was the absolute Antithesis of that so it was very difficult to be underground because it was on the one hand what one believed You should be doing but on the other it was very counter to Being with people so being underground was very challenging very hard. I Think I remember this from your book It really was the antithesis of what you were I mean you were Susan Rosenberg You had your particular look yet your particular style your particular stance. That's right. That's right But my understanding from your book is that when you're underground you really have to be quote-unquote normal fit in look like everyone else Looked like someone and act like someone who you're not how do you survive that? Mentally and psychologically and how long were you underground? It's hard to do right I mean I I was underground for almost three years and That was a long time of being away from your life your family your friends Etc, but I was doing it because I believe that it was the right thing to do politically I believe that I was part of a movement of people that were gonna make a revolution and I mean one of the things That I think happens when you're in that situation is there's a group think There's like a mind think that happens that perpetuates a View of the world that you're in that may not actually be true And I think that that was something that did happen to us that we really misread what was going on by the time We were still engaged in that level of radical politics and you know, I I don't defend everything that we did or Support everything that we did then but we were we our intentions and our our view of that our desires were we're I think legitimate Okay, so you were arrested Tell us about that experience and I also want to hear about your incarceration your incarceration as a woman your incarceration as a white woman your incarceration as a revolutionary All those categories were part of you were the differences or similarities and how you were treated while incarcerated in those various Categories tell us just a little bit about that experience not getting into Lexington yet, but just generally speaking I want to talk about Well, yeah, I think yeah Well, I say this at the prison the experience of going to prison of getting captured of going on trial was you know in some ways because I had been involved with radical people much of my My my life up to that point. I thought I was prepared. I thought I was ready I would know what was gonna happen to me in prison and actually prison and the experience of being in the hands of the state and being hated so deeply by the state for being Primarily a race trader, which was what my jacket was when I was in prison Really blew my mind prison blew my mind in in every way Did you say it's a race trader? Yes on your jacket on your didn't it didn't say that No, it didn't literally say that but I and I want to come back and talk about I'm sorry. No, no, it did say on my jacket do not trust Very personable do not trust. I I I did say that so I always find that amazing that they actually put that on my jacket, but anyway, I I I think Yeah prison so prison really blew my mind I think and and in every way because Because of the Suffering in prison really it was I talked about suffering earlier as something that I think really I Felt when I was young and I felt it throughout my life, but in a very organized way a Continual wave of relentless suffering by everybody inside the prison system just really Changed my thinking and consciousness about being a human being and being alive So, you know, that's that's number one I think we talk a lot about prisons and I've been in the prison movement for many many years and There's a lot of reliance on numbers and statistics and what what is You know all of that and and really what we have to remember and this is why I wrote the book and why I'm so happy I I I can still speak about this is that every One of those two point three million people is a human being is a person and it's not a statistic It's it's it's and that person has a life and they have a family and they have their own Desires, you know every single bit of what everybody feels as being a human is completely obliterated by the experience of prison and I really I felt that quite acutely in prison. So I mean just to answer your question, you know, I from being a woman and understanding the misogyny of the prison system the profound hatred of women who who Step out of line, right the the gender normativity and the need for this binary and Oppressive set of conditions in American prisons, but you know, it was just very profound and then watching I was imprisoned through The course of the race war. I mean, I'm sorry the war on drugs Same things married, so and and the drug war when I first went to federal prison, which was in 1984 The population of women was a third black a third Latin and a third white I mean there was some Latin meaning also people from Central and Latin America And that was the numbers of the population breakdown by the time I left federal prison in 2001 It was 90% African-American and it was you know, just to witness this to watch this when the DC prisoners In jails in DC all were brought into the federal prison system for the what the drug war had done It was an incredible experience to see to see this number And so in some ways going to prison confirmed everything that I had thought before I went to prison Only now I was in prison and so the options of what to do about that were so much more limited, right? so Let's get to Lexington now I saw film quite a very long time ago called through the wire that Chronicle really the experience of you as well as several others Sylvia Ballardini, Yala Hadrina Torres and I think one or two others in this underground unit managed by the Federal Bureau of Prisons and I know that I used to work in national prison project But I wasn't there at that time during that suit But one of the experts that we used to bring through the facilities Decoyne he featured prominently throughout the film and he called it torture Can you talk to us about this unit that you were sent at why you and the others were sent there and What they said you had to do if you were ever Able to have the possibility of leaving Yes, I mean I This brings us to this question about what is the US doing now about Torture and using isolation in solitary confinement And it also brings us to this question of why I put in the title of my book I'm a political prisoner in my own country because I was one of Long line of political prisoners in the United States And so I want to talk about that and come back to to that but in terms of in terms of Lexington This is in 1986 and 1987. So this is a really long time ago already where the the Bureau of Prisons in conjunction with other prison international prison systems in Ireland in Great Britain in Germany in Italy in France all are Beginning to implement what then was called the dead wings which were the isolation wards for Revolutionary prisoners who were captured in each of those countries the long-cash prisoners in Ireland the people who were in the Irish Republican army were kept in these kind of units And there was it was very clear that this was a Strategy to to break and destroy radical movements in Europe in Western Europe in particular And the United States didn't quite have that level It had a different level Based on racism and the way that the prison system has always treated African-American and other people of color with solitary confinement and the whole and segregation But as an organized system as part and parcel of the actual state and Punishment in the paradigm of punishment. There wasn't this system This organized level and Lexington was an experiment by the Bureau of Prisons to implement a dead wing prison for political prisoners in the United States and They thought that they could do it because we were women and we you know There would not be support for us and that they would be able to to do this experiment It began I was one of the first people sent there with Alejandrina Torres Who is a political prisoner from the Puerto Rican independence movement and the two of us went there? it was literally a basement in a prison that was a federal women's prison and it was a 16 unit cell series of cells and it was all white and the lights were on all the time and Nobody could talk to anybody and we had no contact with anybody for 14 months while we were there And so there were cameras everywhere and there were cameras in the showers and you know, et cetera, et cetera I mean in some ways it's Describing it it's not as bad as Guantanamo, right? But it was the beginning of what then ends in Guantanamo Where these conditions exist and so we were put there because of our beliefs The three of us who were political women who were incarcerated for our actions against the US But who had been motivated by politics to take these actions. We were all put in this unit and And we were told and there were a lot of things that happened in the course of this And but we were told after we'd been there for a short period of time And I think this is what you're asking me about is that if we want if we would renounce our beliefs if we would give up information to them about whatever they Wanted us to talk about we would be able to leave that unit We would be able to get out of the Lexington high security unit and we would be able to go to general population They weren't going to free us and they weren't going to let us out of prison But we could go to general population and and so When they first said that to us, I remember it really I actually remember it rather vividly I thought this is how we can fight them This is how we can defeat them because they're not supposed to do that in America I actually believed that right that I I thought wow You know they're torturing us and they're saying to us if we renounce our so anyway What happened from there was that? We spent months trying to get them to put it on paper So that we could sue them and we could take them to court and so there was a whole huge human rights struggle of which You know so you did sue them. We didn't know there was a very brave judge Tell a little bit about yeah, there was a very I mean we did sue them There was a movement it was one of the early human rights movements for women in prison in this country And it was fought on the basis that they the Bureau of Prisons was violating our human rights and our first amendment rights And as a place of torture So it was very early in this period of trying to expose these kind of things that people Didn't believe the United States government did but we took it to court the the National Prison Project of the ACLU Litigated this with us along with many other people and Amnesty International Intervened on our behalf and came and saw the the unit and condemned it It was the first report that amnesty had ever written about Making a condemnation of US human rights violations It was a joint report on what was happening with us in Lexington and with men in the Marion Prison in Illinois And so we did sue and this judge who we had a Barrington Parker Who was an African-American judge in the District of Columbia? Ruled in our favor and basically said that what was happening to us in Lexington was inhumane and Was our violation of our first amendment rights? So we did not win our litigation on the basis that it was torture But we did win that they had put us there because of our beliefs not because of something that we had done And I understand that that unit was in fact shut down But I'm unfortunately Judge Parker's ruling was over turn and you know, it seems like solitary confinement is the Order of the day now as I said before I will always say the struggle, you know continues But that was a really heroic battle that you all waged to illuminate the issues bring it out to the public eye and You get that unit shut down since we deprivation. I mean, you know You all were sick. I mean when I saw you we came to Washington know if you're beautiful you were horrible I mean just what to talk to us a little bit about some of the health impact of The conditions that you suffered under that type of sensory deprivation solitary confinement Underground cell at Lexington Well, you know now I there is I'm so happy that there's this movement going on against solitary confinement because solitary confinement is torture and now it's understood I think that after 15 hours or something like that you have total isolation one's brain Patterns begin to change, you know that right away. There's an impact of being in solitary confinement We just got sick. We were really we were in these conditions for 28 months and Everybody got really sick one person. We all got this kind of White blindness where everything is white and it's illuminated all the time. So all you you see is white This was of an impact Everybody got sick in one way or another and I think you know We we spoke and we talked to the experts the psychiatric expert for the ACLU About our conditions and one of the things that we said to them or I said to him Which then became a whole a whole kind of piece of this Fight we were in with the state was that I said to him. Well, you know, we all I have a suicide plan and and That was like that showed and I thought it made sense Right because I felt that you know if if we were going to lose our minds From the torture that we were facing that better to commit suicide as the last act of resistance in a way where we had power to determine our own destiny rather than to become totally Tortured and destroyed by the state Because I said that it it, you know, it meant that they were Trying to kill us and it was actually it was very difficult to admit that I didn't want to admit that because I was supposed to be You know a militant and a strong revolutionary, but I also felt like it was the right thing to Consider under those conditions. It's I I know it's hard to understand that but in any case That's that's something that happened. And so There was a real response that what was being done to us this way was Causing us to be suicidal and that really I think had an had an impact on the decisions that Barrington Parker made so Alejandra Torres had a heart attack while we were in that unit Sylvia Baraldini Got cancer while we were in that unit and then it was luckily was treated outside of that unit Everybody got really really sick from those conditions. I Just want to say one segue back though to the other point, which is that out of the Resistance and what happened at Lexington and post Lexington and I don't think people really know this even people in the prison Movement don't know this that much is that our the decision on our case was overturned and What it means now is that the Bureau of Prisons? Can take a prisoner who's in prison for something relatively minor and they have Complete control over that prisoner and can put them in any prison in any place for any length of time No matter what with no do process and so this idea that we have this myth that there's due process in our country Right when we look at prisoners there really is almost no due process, right? That the idea that we still have habeas corpus has really been undercut by this and it happened in Prisons so this idea that prisons reflect society at large is really true Right, so if you can do it in prison you can do it to everybody else And I think that's something that I really understood in retrospect about the experience of Lexington So Susan there was another indictment than you and Cody finish. Yeah, they just never let me alone You know they just wouldn't let me alone and this indictment at something to do with a number of different bombings including the bombing of the US Capitol after the Invasion of a Grenada and a number of other actions And the indictment said something to the effect of seeking to change the policies and practices of the United States And the different things that I saw through some of the documents was that many of these Actions were in support of liberation movements and Solidarity and I just want you to speak about that solidarity with liberation movements as motivation for Some of the actions and activities, can you just speak a little bit to that? Yeah Yeah, yeah solidarity. I think is what motivated us as People in the in the left. I was from that part of the movement and came from that that Part of the what we called then the anti-imperialist movement And so solidarity with national liberation struggles was what we were trying to affect whether that was against the war And solidarity with the National Liberation Front in Vietnam, right? We were not just against the war We were also for the right of the Vietnamese people to take control of Vietnam So I think for us we were and I was really Moved and motivated by wanting to support Revolutionary struggles around the world and in the United States at the same time so I think for us We were and again, I said this earlier. I would say it again I think we were we were we were wishing that there was a revolutionary movement when in fact There really wasn't but there were still struggles that were going on in the world that we wanted to support and the US did a takeover of revolution that had happened in Grenada and And there was a finally a response to that, right? So there were there was central there was a war going on at the time of these actions in Central America That the US was sponsoring and supporting and so there was actions in support of the people in Central America around that And so that I think but you know more broadly I would say that I think human solidarity is what makes it worth living You know to me solidarity is like the most important concept. There is you know I'm an atheist but what I do believe in more than anything is in human solidarity and that in the human spirit that we can actually Feel each other and deal with each other and and so you know that might not be exactly what you're asking me But but that's kind of how I came away from the experience of prison was that solidarity Put me in prison and solidarity saved me from prison, you know in both ways You know Susan, I remember When I met you in the DC jail was part of the legal defense team. I met you and your co-defendants Did not look like terrorists Not one person lost their lives in any of the actions or anything along those lines I remember and I probably shouldn't be saying this okay But you know rather than really dealing specifically with the legal strategy and all like that you all were talking about What are we gonna do with me? And you know what what what what is the strategy to on this was in the early days when we Yeah, I didn't really know me a boujambot was really back then you won't that those were the discussions that we were having discussions about Making sure that you all were not coming to the legal room and shackles and chains discussions about how are we gonna Take down the wall, you know, what was this wall that would tell the people about the wall Yeah, I'm gonna tear down the wall. Are the walls now standard the walls is still there. Yeah, never got down, but it was a It was a movement to educate people that you were not Terrorists you did not need to be protected The audience the coming to the courtroom didn't the judge did not need to be protected, you know from you So, you know, we spent a good deal of time with that type of Education, I don't know if you want to say anything about that Well, I think I was saying it somewhat before which is that if you can do it to the terrorists and you can do it to anybody Right, so it's this whole idea of dehumanizing and and criminalizing people in a major way and that's what they were doing with us and so you know when I was going on trial as a As a plaintiff ensuing the Bureau of Prisons around Lexington and I was going to go to court and I had You know, I hadn't been in a public place in a long time They put up this wall in the courtroom between the well of the court and the and the spectators And you know, that was the beginning of the kind of repression that now we think of as almost standard Right, but then it had never happened and there was this plexiglass wall that was Erected because I was so dangerous to the population that would be watching the trial and Fortunately, you know, it wasn't totally consolidated at that point. I remember when Barrington Parker He refused to have his trial in that courtroom and he was he said this is ridiculous I'm not gonna do that and But now that's what I mean about how it, you know, we were we knew we were we felt so strongly that if if we couldn't stop it then it was going to proliferate and that's part of why we resisted so strongly was that we Really understood that once that kind of level of repression would take hold It would proliferate in the society as a whole these were also the days when crack That was beginning to hit the streets the days when HIV and AIDS was really really proliferating you did a lot of work in that area while you were in prison, I mean you were one of the main AIDS activists, can you talk a little bit about your experiences along those lines? Well, we were in prison I was in prison when when the AIDS epidemic occurred started, I mean and Watched the AIDS epidemic Happening and then I was in the as Nikichi said I was in with my other Codependence in the DC jail This is in 1980 889 and 1990 so this is in when the AIDS epidemic really is Begins and begins to become Larger and it was also in a period where People were people believed that women couldn't get AIDS I mean it's almost unbelievable to say that now There was a long period in the AIDS epidemic where women were considered vessels of the Epidemic but not trans could could not get that they could transmit it But couldn't get it and while we were in the DC jail We watched people wasting away from this unknown disease and it was an Incredibly horrifying experience to witness people Dying of AIDS three women died the first year that I was in on my unit in the DC jail There were nine deaths overall that first year in 1988 and we were we we just couldn't There was no health care. There was just fear people were wearing plastic gloves and you know Hurting people who were sick. It was just an incredible The fear and stigma of a virus that then people really knew almost nothing about or if they knew That knowledge wasn't in the prisons So in response to that it seemed it was such a crisis of such profound proportions that we needed to organize and so because we had some background and one of the Defendants in my case was a medical doctor We had a big fight with the administration of the jail to start the first And I think it was really the first AIDS education program inside of jail in the United States So and then we went on there was this moment where this epidemic hits the prison system and the prison system Nationally has no capacity to deal with it So they let prisoners they gave a tiny bit of space for prisoners around the country to organize as Peer-to-peer to build AIDS programs It's a very interesting thing that happened in the in the prison system And I was one of those people who was able to do that and then did that in every subsequent prison that I was in but David Gilbert who is a prisoner in New York State is Was it actively involved in doing organizing around the HIV AIDS epidemic Judy Clark and Kathy Boudin did Incredible work at Bedford Hills prison Laura and Marilyn, but Laura Whitehorne and Marilyn Buck did organizing in California And there are countless places where prisoners still are trying to do organizing now around hep C the other the other Related epidemics because you know, it's a misnomer when we're talking about prison to say health care. There is no care Right, so this is a still a huge issue today so then you left DC jail and you went to Danbury Danbury that is the Site of the Hollywood production should we say orange is new black I'm gonna ask you about that but first I know that you also met Kimba Smith there Kimba Who was serving a twenty four and a half year sentence as a first-time nonviolent girlfriend of a drug dealer? All this was part of this whole mass incarceration that you talk about that Michelle Alexander writes about in her book the new Jim Crow just curious with the Hollywood paying attention now to prisoners and without dear friend Piper And I think she's going to be gracing the stage Soon Piper Kermit tell me what you think about the series or her book In terms of the reality of the situation and whether Hollywood shooter should not be it means a good thing Is it a bad thing? It just curious? Okay, I Think the book isn't really a good book I you know, and I think that people should read the book Because I think one of the things that happens to white people who go to prison is that they get completely challenged about their own Racism and what they think about the world and how to deal with that right and so what's really I mean Why I'm talking about solidarity and what I think is so interesting about Piper's experience Is that she had her mind blown to about the fact that she was had so much solidarity given to her by other people who were in prison principally who were her Her peers in prison who were black women and that's a really an interesting and important part of that book and The strains in that book that are very much similar to my own experience though We had different some different experiences so yeah, I think You know, I would I think the book is important You know, it's always it the question of getting our Views in the culture and how do we penetrate the culture? You know is really it's something that Leftists and radicals and movements for social justice and change have been grappling with forever So we're not this isn't new Is it infotainment? Is it entertainment? You know orange is the new black I as I said I teach and all of my students all ask me You know, what do you think of the what do you think of that? because that's what they've seen and that's what they know and You know unless they have people in their family who've been to prison, right? So it's either people know nothing or they're completely connected to the criminal justice system It seems less and less there's people in between So I you know, I think I think it's important that there be Positive stories in the culture about people who are incarcerated So I'll say that about it on the one hand So I think in that sense It's an important thing because it puts the issue of women in prison out there on the other hand I you know as always when Hollywood puts its hands on something And they've done their market research about what sells and what doesn't and how to tell the narrative or not I'm very unhappy about the fact that once again We are shown images that show us the same Stereotypes that put forward black women in a way that are derogatory and I think you know Extremely racialized. So I have a big problem with that So I'm trying to be balanced in my what I'm saying You know I'm going really out the distance on it because I I don't I think overall the book is really important So, you know, but I think our images look there's this whole idea about prisons that Let me just say a little more about this which is that you know prison I think Angela Davis who has written a great book that I urge everybody to read which is called prisons are obsolete Which is kind of the primer of prison abolition writes this whole piece about you know the prison is this institution on the hill this the Prison is something that we live with that is both seen and unseen and that we Know about it. It figures prominently in our consciousness, right? Or it's you know It's the pipeline from one institution in the community right into prison or it's Something that we know nothing about that's kept secret that we shouldn't know about you know, so I think When images of prison are in the mass culture, it's very important to Ensure and I know that orange is the new black is trying to do this But you know to make real what prison is and and I think that that is is the problem Okay, I just have about one or two more questions and then hopefully we can open it up with some Q&A But you're out of prison now, so we're barrel D&E is out. I'll her dream. I told her this is out Are there any more political prisoners or prisoners of war in prison today? Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked me that Yes, there are I you know, and I think this is something that You know, I feel like I'm so lucky that I got out of prison, right and I could just as easily have Been in prison today I would still be in prison today if I had not gotten Clemency from President Clinton and sometimes I think about that You know like what I've been able to do in these 14 years of my life and what I would not have done at all So I feel very very privileged and lucky to be able to be out of prison at this point But there are many many many US held political prisoners in the United States still to this day and now They've been in 30 and 40 years more than that and these are people who are from that film that clip that we saw That that seven-minute clip it belays the basis for understanding that there are Scores and scores of people from that period who are still incarcerated and I mentioned some of them before but there are six prisoners in New York State Who are all parole eligible but who are all part of the revolutionary black nationalist movement of the 60s and 70s who? Because they are convicted of violent crime are not will not be given parole And so there's a big fight going on now in New York State about these prisoners to say when is it enough punishment? Isn't it is there never enough punishment for the crimes and the actions or not even crimes? But the actions and activities that people took when there was a civil conflict going on in the country Obviously there's never enough I mean there isn't enough because we live in a society that still holds dear the death penalty So obviously anything goes as far as punishment is concerned. But yes, I think there's other there's the move political prisoners There's mumia Bujumal. There's Leonard Peltier. There's Oscar Lopez These are all people who've been in prison for decades who should all be released And there's a new wave of political prisoners people who come from the environmental movement And now there's another group of people who are being incarcerated who are the hackers who are the whistleblowers, right? These are just a whole other group of people There are always going to be political prisoners because that's the kind of we live in a world where the Political state has to keep controlling if you're outside of that then you're you're in big trouble Well, my last question for you Susan is basically why is it important or is it important to? Stand up and to speak out and I asked this because I know the Frederick Douglass once talked about change And he said if there's no struggle, there's no progress He said those who profess the favor of freedom yet depreciate agitation of those who want the crops without plowing up the ground He said that this struggle has to come about because without it. We don't move on so for you Why is it important? Why do you why stand up? Why speak up? What do you say to everyone here what they should be doing? I think we should abolish prisons You know and and I think I think we can do it I mean, I actually think you know we can we can do it we can do it in our lifetime, you know, I mean Prison is a crime Itself, right? I think you know People don't say that enough. I look I am completely in favor of reforming prisons I think we need to reform prison in Every way possible as quickly as we can and because for me any positive change for the lives of people who are currently incarcerated is something that I want to see happen because I Want to see the elimination or the alleviation of people suffering in prison, right? This minute not tomorrow this minute so You know on that level. I think this movement that we're seeing is is really important and fantastic on the other hand It's also true that until we deconstruct the Multiple systems that make up the prison industrial complex that make up what this system is and who benefits from it And how they benefit from it and how it keeps us in a perpetual war the relationship between Militarism and the prisons right the fact that our country is doing what it's doing around the world all of that is Actually can be looked at in the prison industrial complex and so for me Saying that there's a different way. There's a different Way to think about justice if we think prison has anything to do with justice We are kidding ourselves. This is a complete myth. It's a complete misnomer so for me, I think it's important to stand up for a Human solidarity for making the world a better place for the fact that you do one thing in your life You have no idea how it's going to impact down the line and you know I want more good than bad I mean I used to want a revolution and I in my heart of hearts I still do but I also believe that that's really far and a certain way But I actually think prison abolition can help us rethink and restructure what we believe about What's important in society? So, you know, I guess I just think we we We need and we want and and we can have a more socially just world Susan all I can say is thank you. You are your story is just so vivid Embarrassed I used to always call myself an armchair revolutionary But I mean, you know, thank you so much for sharing I hope there's some questions or some dialogue from the audience I see a microphone there if you're interested in asking a question or making a comment going to make your way to the Microphone and as we're waiting for people to do that. Let me just ask you something else I noticed that in your book you talked about the Joint Terrorist Task Force and one of the Persons that was part of the task force at that time Bernard Carrick who later became Police Commissioner in New York under Giuliani. I know he went to prison and I think it's very interesting It appears that people go to prison No matter where they are in the political spectrum are Touched by the conditions are touched by the humanity of the people that they see there And I've heard them speak on certain cases. I'm beginning. Is that Bernard Carrick speaking? So you don't have to respond to that. I was just waiting for people to come up I just saw that as an interesting scenario and I thought maybe if more conservative white men Went to prison maybe we will be far along on that task of abolishing prisons How are you my brother? I'm doing good. Name is Carl Dix Co-founder of the stop mass incarceration network representative of Revolutionary Communist Party just so everybody knows Okay, going back to some of the comments that Miss Sackler made opening this up in terms of Situating stop a mass incarceration in the abuse that black people have suffered Since they dragged the first African here in chains I mean that is exactly the case and it is a conscious policy not just something that happened or Black people commit a lot of crimes but a conscious policy of social control targeting blacks and Latinos and Look it is built into the fabric and framework of this system Which is why I say two things on it one is it'll take revolution nothing less to get rid of it once and for all and Look we in a revolutionary communist party We build in a movement for revolution and we've even put together a constitution that talks about what a revolutionary society Would look like and how things would be different on that and people really need to engage that and then the other thing that we say is that people need to stand up and Resist this right now, and that's the very heartening thing about what people have been doing around police killings which kind of concentrate this program of punishment and We're moving to Stand up on April 14th, and I encourage everybody to get with me and talk about that now I wanted to pose to you because It's a specific question to Susan. I mean you can comment on it too, sister But I was posing it to Susan because you talked about we can end Prisons abolish prisons in our lifetime But revolution is far off. So I'd actually like you to discuss How we could do that because it's I'm with you on a lot of things But I think we need a revolution to do that and I just like to get your perspective on how we could move Towards abolishing prison In a shorter framework Well short is good. I agree with you the shorter the better I mean I think well, you know It's like when when I first came out of prison, which is 14 years ago. There was no Concept really of abolition in terms of prison, right? I mean there was critical resistance had been doing certain kind of work and I think Angela Davis's book about the prison industrial complex and prison abolition came out in 2002 I think or some somewhere along that line. I mean the the level of discussion and action around abolition as a concept and as something Potentially real is so much broader than it then it was even 10 years ago It's at least it's not something that people just immediately say. Oh, absolutely not I mean because nobody is talking about abolition in the sense that you know There isn't a form of Justice it's not to it's not to say that if we had prison abolition there wouldn't be Justice no, it's more about what would community control look like what would how would we be able to? Organize the society in such a way. What would we do in the schools in order to prevent prison? So I think there's there's many components to it because it is this series of interlocking systems So I you know I I know that's not exactly an answer to your question, but it's part of an answer And call I'll just say also A keen to that people are really beginning to look at law enforcement now It's well particularly in the wake of you know all the incidents that have recently Occur people really seriously looking about not specifically law enforcement before but law enforcement Restructuring so I like to look at that in context with this whole concept of making prison abolition of reality As well and see how the two of those can work in tandem because people don't get in prison unless the police put them there So that's a great question. Hopefully everybody will Take in the activities that you've been at the helm of for so very long Yes, you do Thank you. I have two questions My name is Sheila Katzman and the chair for cities for the convention and the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women and Girls and it and just came up on this thing happening here today. We came for something else My first question is President Clinton Grant clemency to you Were there any black revolutionaries included in that because for some unknown reason I don't know why Jews are always seen as considered white I don't know why that is and could you answer that question? You know who else were Granted clemency and the other question is more personal because I'm sitting there and I'm I Don't I don't know if I'm a revolutionary I stand for change and justice and worked in some really hardcore place of places of war around the world You said as a revolutionary You didn't mind dying for the cause which most of us maybe feel that way too and Prison is another thing, but what really was heart-wrenching for me is You'd never realized until you're there what Prison life was like and the bit of the light and the torture that you went through That that pain I think was felt by everybody coming through here So it drives a certain kind of fear had you known, but we never know what will happen when we're fighting for fighting against injustice What 14 years now? What was it like what did you do to normalize? You yourself Psychologically and I asked it because I worked in peacekeeping operations and Even I'm still Traumatized nine years after you know, but there's some triggers that happen that Really make me into something that I'm not or don't want to be Thanks Thank you. Well that Yeah, you asked several questions, so I think I'll take the last one first Yeah Well when I was in prison, I felt that we were being tortured in this unit and We didn't really want to say at the time we were being tortured for some reason We felt like if we admitted that we were being tortured that then it would there would be more success of Their ability to torture us. I'm not sure why we thought that but So but I in my mind I really thought that what was happening to us was torture and that if I ever could get out of prison Which at the time I did not know or have much of an expectation of That I would go to a torture clinic if I ever could get out and when I got out I did and I went to the NYU clinic Torture clinic and I went there because I felt like I had been very severely damaged by the experience and because I Wanted to go to a place where I wouldn't have to explain About being political like I wouldn't have to prove that I hadn't made all of these things up about How I was treated and so it was really important to Recognize the psychological impact and I think about that in relationship to people coming out now You know all the hundreds of people who haven't been tortured in the same way But prison is so traumatizing to people that there is a need for serious Psychological stuff that has to take place for people in order for people to come out and be Reclaim their their sanity and their humanity. So I You know, I think I did a many things But because I was conscious that there had been such a deep impact it gave me the tools to be able to at least Try and get some healing going In terms of your other question President Clinton was Released on clemency in those clemencies. He pardoned gave clemency to a number of Puerto Rican Political prisoners. There were 11 political prisoners that were in that same period released under a clemency and There were drug war prisoners but in terms of African-American or new African political prisoners there were none given clemency and Leonard Peltier who was Up for clemency was at the very last minute denied clemency And you know, I I think I said this earlier But I think that you know, this is a question also of where in the privilege exists in every Sphere and in this it existed as well, you know, and I I feel that about my my clemency Okay, let's go to the next question Hi everyone, my name is Jenny and I'm with the people's power assemblies which is a group here in New York City That has been organizing a lot of the protests demonstrations action direct actions against police brutality since the killing of Eric Garner last year and We are organizing a people's tribunal later this summer which because of the fact that the Justice system the so-called justice system has failed and The the goal is to put the police on trial and let the people judge And we will have an opening session to this people tribe people's tribunal, which is taking place April 2nd in about two weeks at the national black theater in Harlem From 6 to 9 p.m. And I have these yellow flyers which I can pass out to you But they're also outside on the table and and I invite you all to come there will be Testimonies by people affected by police brutality But the name is the people's tribunal on police violence and structural racism because we really want to emphasize That this is part of a larger system of Structural racism that it's not just the police that we don't just need to reform police practices But we really have to abolish prisons. We have to overhaul the whole system So I would invite you all to join us as I said, there will be Testimonies there will be a town hall where people can participate it and a few speeches by people affected So, please feel free to grab these flyers and come see me if you have any questions. Thank you Thank you so much for the for the talks Thank you. Thank you for your comment. Let's go to the next question on this side Hello, hello, can you hear me? Okay, my name is Alexis Haney. I'm not with any group I'm a college student in the City University of New York and What I have is more of a concern than a question because whenever I approach a space that is Designated as the flyer says for people of color and there is a white body as the presenter I get a little concerned and I want to know You addressed in a lot of passing about oh and also the black women there and also my experience of their experiences, but When you put your your face in the front or you use a voice like Angela Davis How do you address the the audience when you're you're basically repackaging someone else's Experience you're repurposing in a way that is easier to access for a lot of people and I think about the you use Piper Kerman show and I think about who can afford to not know about prison like where do you have to be in life to not To own your only experience of prison is a TV show and even that show the only experience is through a white woman's experience of prison What there there won't there would never be a show where there's a black woman's experience of prison I want to know just your thoughts on that or how you would work to maybe address that because If I'm very uncomfortable for me and for I would feel a lot of black bodies in a space when you're speaking on something that is So immediate to their lives and it's coming from someone who Although it has been a part of your experience when it's repurposed through you The white bodies in the audience can access it through something through a distance They don't have to actually see it the way kids can watch Piper Kerman's experience of prison And then the black people rotate in the background And you say that you are a revolutionary and what's really revolutionary about a white woman speaking about being a revolutionary Okay, go for Susan Yeah, I Listen, I feel very acutely aware of this. Thank you for the question Actually, because I guess I would I would say that I Didn't want to write this book for that very reason because the The reality is that American society can only access things Through the eyes or the people that they have in common with so it is through my white eyes that Disexperience and how I have experienced what I have has been has been written and Actually, I actually agree with you I don't really do this very much because there's a part of me that feels very strongly that That there it is it is primarily Not my role to do that but on the other hand I did have this experience and if people can access some of the Incredibly destructive issues that prison and prison life and the experience of prison Raises then I I think it's worth it. You know, I think it's a good thing. So Yeah, I that's that would be would be my answer I don't feel that I'm repurposing or repackaging Angela Davis I feel that as another person in the prison struggle and there are many many people in the prison struggle More and more voices like mine like Angela's like anybody who's coming out of prison Who embraced this idea of abolition is how you build a movement and it's going to take a lot of different people to build that movement But I I I really I respect your question And I'll also say that many times the majority culture Feels and accepts Things more so when it comes from people who look like them That's one of the things I found Throughout that's one of the reasons why Piper Kerman's book and her film has been so very successful. I work in Washington and the legislatures Saying, you know, can we get Piper Kerman on the panel? You know It serves to help to illuminate issues in cases where It's otherwise swept under the rug What we really want to do is for people to also lift up other books other cases Kimba Smith Has a book out called poster child she is one of the drug war Persons that Susan spoke about who was granted clemency asada Shakur who also was a political prisoner of prisoner of war Who was granted exile and slimming Cuba has a book of course Angela Davis has books They're different things for different environments I guess you could say but everyone's talking about basically the same central Issue and same central concern just everybody's ears are not receptive the receptive based on who the messenger Is and Susan being the messenger has been able to Go into certain areas and break down barriers where a side of Shakur might not have been able to so I appreciate the Question as well. So we're gonna I forgot which side we're going this side. Yes Hi, my name is Chad Kaltzer. I'm a philosophy professor in Denver and had a chance about ten years ago to interview Angela Davis about organizing and I Was still a student at the time and it was very influential interview for me because it was for abolition democracy her book abolition democracy And she said, you know the way I was asking the questions. She said, you know at the time We didn't know what we were doing You know, we had an analysis of the state of power and racism But in terms of organizing, we didn't really know in retrospect. It looks like we knew what we were doing Because we were pretty successful at gaining attention and growing But at the time we really didn't know what we were doing and so it's really important for every generation to experiment in organizing and that just Changed my whole world to think about that And This is in connection to the the last question because I think it's really important and this is the question I want to address to you both which is I think it's really important for white people to speak out and challenge white supremacy Actually, I think it's an obligation of white people to challenge white supremacy so I think it's really important that white people speak out not speak for but speak out against white supremacy and It was that encounter with Angela Davis that made me think about that and so for the last 10 or 11 years I've been speaking out and teaching and writing about white supremacy and and criticizing state policies that support it and I guess my question to you both is for those Who are listening to this? Who are exposed to this who are? Not experienced organizers. They're not self-defining as revolutionaries. They're all of this is just overwhelming to them and Sometimes it seems like everyone's got an inside track somehow and they don't know how it's even possible to get involved Or they're scared to get involved. What kind of advice would either of you or both of you give to young folks? Who knows something's wrong? they want to get involved of things that they can do Places that they can go books that they can read such as yours Susan to get them Connected and thinking about this stuff in ways that are really practical in every day because sometimes when we look back at these movements And I know my students look at Black Lives Matter often as this movement That's over there and not happening right in their community even though it is happening right in their community How to make that connection to get them from being interested in observing into participating in social struggles and Thank you again for being here. It's fantastic Thank you, you know, it's funny. I always I feel like well, you know, I wrote the book, right? And so I I don't have a program for for for social revolution, right? I just wanted to start a conversation. So I don't really I don't have a really great answer to that But what I what I do think is I think every person needs to become immediately Involved with prison and prison work in one form or another and protest of how Policing and criminal justice happens and there are lots of ways to do that There are multiple organizations that are doing work around this I mean, there's from the lowest level to a much more militant level You know, it's like you can be a pen pal for somebody in prison If if if that's the level that first takes you into this world if you're not already in this world There's I mean, there's just a range of things. So I I don't really I don't have I'm not I don't have like a specific program that I that I'm pushing in this And I don't have the answer either but I will say going back to a slogan from the past Agitate educate organize how we're going to make the black nation rise But I say that to say there are a lot of people who are on the streets I'm now with the our hands up movement, etc. And doing dynes and all of that and that is absolutely excellent I mean, that's part of being part of the movement part of being part of struggle That's part of the agitation But you got to educate yourselves as well the books that we're talking about this to two others We're going to lift up the black folk who have written books to Jamal Joseph who was Featured in the Stanley Nelson Panthers at the vanguard of the movement He has a book called Panther baby Panther baby. I think it is Safia Bukhari Longstanding The former political prisoner prisoner of war who is since I passed there is a book out You know about her so we need to educate ourselves to what's out there We need to learn it ourselves and we need to pass on the information and then we need to organize We need to find organizations who are out there doing things that organize the folk who just up at the podium and die is talking about rallies and demonstrations and And tribunals and things that they organize and we need to be a part of all of that and as We become part of the movement the movement can Go on we actually have I think we're about ten minutes. Is that correct? We have about ten minutes I think we have a couple more questions So let us know who you are. Hey, hi, I'm Karina. I'm a college student at Bard College And you'll have to forgive me if this question is a little bit grounded in pop culture but I wanted to know how you feel about the topic of Norwegian prisons that have been really popular in the press and the idea of open prisons where Prisoners have a very fluid life with the community and are able to see their families and have I guess as much autonomy as one could imagine in a prison But I was wondering if you think that those are maybe a step in the right direction or counter to your ideas of what justice means So if you could just say a little bit about how you feel about that You know, I think look I think that the fact that they have a view that people should maintain Relations that prison shouldn't be You know only punitive right that they have a rehabilitative view of prisons is is a nicer But I'm not sure it's that significantly better, but it certainly means it's less Aggregious to the to the people they don't have the death penalty in Norway and they don't have a life sentences And so in that regard, I think it's really important as you know another that there are other examples out there of Criminal justice that I don't and contain the same things that the system here does in on that level But on another level, you know, I think it's I really do think we need to think harder About what kind of justice do we want to see what kind of what is transformative justice? What is another way of looking at? Punishment why do we have crime to begin with? I mean, I think we have to get it to it at a deeper at a deeper level And actually I really appreciate your question because I don't know much about Norwegian prisons But this is what I'm talking about when we say educate us ourselves. You have put it out there I'm going to go and do the research and background so I can be articulated on that and next time And just before we bring up the last Commenter or questioner, you know, the United States is an issue No, it has the highest incarceration rate in the world of 500 percent increase over the past You know 15 or 20 years and these excessive sentences is really what's driving this the sentence you got 58 years for a possession Charge, I mean a 58 year Kimber smell 24 years for a nonviolent first I mean the sentences that are being made it out in this country are just Absolutely deplorable, and if anybody wants to organize about something also do something about the these sentences are becoming the new No, yeah, they are and you know, it's really I'm curious what's led to this massive incarceration this carceral And you know in conjunction with that it's there's this there's this idea that our system is Has this sort of relief in it, which is about parole But people are not getting parole either right so then really it's just a continual punishment. You know, it's like continual war It's continual punishment. So people in New York State There are 8,000 prisoners in New York State who are over 55 Every single one of them are eligible for parole But because some number of them have are inside prison for having committed quote violent crimes They won't be released so really they have life sentences the judge didn't say they had life sentences But in effect, that's what's happening So there's this lengthy sentencing that's going on and there's just a complete continuing acceptance of increasing repression Why do we accept the fact that there's increasing punitive measures every day? And I think that's a place where we also have to start like why are we accepting it? Thank you. You have the last question or comment for you. Thank you Howard Katzman Yeah, I feel very removed from this whole thing in the sense of Understanding the prisons the prison issues and things like that But then like the people who are not directly connected to people in prison to the prison You know that whole class type of things you say hmm Now on the other hand when you just when I hear the descriptions of people in prison and the life in prison I hear this power story the story of violence the way the violence of the state being used upon people and then people using Trying to use violence back and violence working against them And what I hear is very much the theories of Jean Sharp Talking about non-violent struck struggle which had been used very successfully in a lot of these revolutions around the world like the Egyptian and What was it Serbian? These different revolutions and it's like hmm the model sounds very similar to what's happening in prison Where the prisoners are made created a first sort of violence That they act out on each other divide and conquer and all these other things But the truth of the matter is the state has the monopoly on violence and all those just it just seems to describe that thing very well and as a means of organizing and Breaking those down and directing where things are actually coming from to look at the writings of Jean Sharp Anyway, thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. I don't know that writer Okay, I really want Everyone to give Susan Rosenberg a big hand Really want to thank Elizabeth Sackler in the museum and I'm going to turn it over to you Elizabeth the closes out. I will close you out. There are a few things. I do want to say before I do I guess I have the option to do that because I stand here and there's a microphone for me Books the new press the new press has published 61 books about incarceration Brian Stevenson's just mercy if you think you know everything that's horrible Learn some more So there are a lot of books out there right now Including of course the great new the new Jim Crow