 We'll start laughing. No problem. Everybody's already left. Why are these two laughing again? We're starting right from the beginning of the damn video. I don't understand. Fire and ice. That was my fire. Did you like that? I don't know what you're doing for ice. I have no, I just like a, like a square. Oh, I like that. Yeah. I like that. Anyway, welcome back people. Fire and ice. We're at it again. Here we are. I think we missed a month, but that's okay. It's been a busy month. Yeah, it has been a busy month. So today we're going to have a little bit of a, I mean, I think what is a meandering conversation because I will, I will frame this for you. And by the way, if you do not, if you're not aware, this is Lauren Rosen. She is at the obsessive mind on Instagram. You should check her out. A hundred percent. And if you're following, or if you're coming here from my page, go follow Drew Linzalata, the dot anxious.truth. He's amazing. He's on Instagram. He's got a YouTube channel. Well, you know that because you're here and, you know, writes books. It's awesome. Yeah. I do whatever comes to mind at the time is what I do. So a couple of, I guess it was last week. So more and Kelly Frankie, who's another really great, you should follow. She's the, the OCD therapist. Yeah. Kelly is awesome. I know Kelly and I know you guys are BFFs. So Kelly and Lauren do a podcast called purely purely OCD, which is great. I'll link that also. And that's, that's part of your live streams that you do every week or every other week would have on Instagram. Exactly. So we record live on Instagram and we have a little bit of back and forth with, with people who are tuning in and who have questions. And, and then, yeah. And we put it on podcast apps for. So check that out. I will link that in the video description if you watch on the YouTube. So you guys can check out that podcast. It's really good. And Kelly is awesome too. So last week I happened to pop into your Instagram live, which I rarely get to do, but that was a bit of a treat. And it was just bear with me here. So Lauren and Kelly go back and forth. And they're talking about how they can support each other. Cause both of you guys have experience with your own OCD, right? Yes. Both specializing now and treating OCD. What a surprise, right? So, and, and different. So when they support each other and at one point, I don't even know if it was you or it was Kelly who said this, you know, it was Kelly. And it was, you know, they're sort of talking about the conversations that they may have where you guys are kind of supporting each other, bringing your struggle to each other. And it was Kelly who said, well, you know, sometimes I just have to think and say, can I offer you a reframe? And I don't know why it struck me as here are these two OCD specialists with their own struggles with OCD helping each other out. Can I offer you a reframe? Which just struck me as odd because that is like the OCD equivalent of can I get you something to eat? It's just strange. And I wanted to explore that today. Can I offer you a reframe? Yeah. And why that's important. Yeah. So Kelly's exact statement was can I offer you a reframe? Would you like an exposure? So that was typically, that was exactly, can I get you something to eat? Are you hungry? Explain what she meant there. So if you're bringing, let's say you're bringing a little issue to Kelly, you're struggling with your OCD is flared up a little bit and you bring it to Kelly as a friend. Yeah. What is she talking about? So what she's talking about is essentially like, okay, have you already gone over this in your mind rationally? That's her, that's shorthand for have we already reality tested whether or not this needs more attention? Which and or like, do you need assurance, right? Not reassurance, but do you need, do you need like an outside perspective on this? Because that's valid and important. Not all, all assurance is bad. It's going to become repetitive, but it's a problem. And so that's her basically saying, all right, like where are we at with this? What's the low down? Are we, are we in the phase where we need to just talk it through and see how it makes sense to behave in response to this thought or should we dive right in to exposure hour? Basically. Okay. Which is actually something that we've talked about before. Most, most friends will go to happy hour. No, we're going to exposure hour. That was just totally fine. So I like that. That brings up that difference between assurance and reassurance like assurance, good assurance education, assurance needed in life, right? Yes. I know Sally Winston already seefully write about that all the time. Assurance versus reassurance. And that's what the reframe is. What you're dealing with that sort of OCD flare up like, okay. Yeah. You know, do we get on that ground or have we already done that? And now we got to go directly to the. To the source. Okay. Yeah. No, that's absolutely it. Yeah. How would you know? Like what's, how do I know the answer to that would be like, yeah, I pretty sure this is one of those intrusive thoughts and I need to work on it as such. Yeah. So generally speaking, if I've already talked with somebody else about it, like let's say I still see a therapist with, you know, maybe once a month just to check in. So let's say I've talked to my therapist about it already. I'll be like, you know, I like that tells me. Maybe I don't need to run the content by somebody again. Maybe especially we've, we've sort of come to a conclusion. If I'm wanting to bring it back up, that's a sign that maybe getting a reframe, getting some, some cognitive restructuring support from a friend isn't necessarily in my best interest. And I think it actually brings up a really interesting point, which is early in recovery. I'm sure you see this all the time. People often are like, yes, reassurance, give me reassurance all the time. And I think one of the things that hopefully happens in the recovery process is that you start to realize that maybe, maybe I don't want that. Like maybe that's not going to benefit me. So you, you can gauge it yourself. And that's, I think something that is required in order for that kind of question from a friend to work. Is that sort of self honesty? You know, that's experience. That's only going to come with some experience. Absolutely. So at first it might be quite difficult to, to check in with yourself and to, to choose the exposure over the reframe. So in the beginning, the question, can I offer you a reframe is usually going to be, yes, please, yes, please. Yes, let's, let's fact-check that again. Yeah. And if it's too exuberant, maybe, maybe that's not. Oh, let's probably indicate, right? And that's reasonably common, like, like in my Facebook group, say in my community where we always have to be careful. Like the group is great and everybody tries to help each other out, but sometimes people forget like, well, this could be somebody in the beginning stages. So can't hammer them on reassurance. They're, this is the first time they're ever asking. So that's, I'm guessing in a therapeutic setting, it's the same thing. If you're just starting to work with somebody, it's not, no, I'm not answering any questions. I will not argue with your rational fear on your behalf. Right. In the beginning, it's like, no, no, no, we can do some fact-checking to start this process. And then we drop this. That's absolutely it. We start with maybe looking at what makes sense to do, especially with some of the really scary stuff that nobody's ever been able to offer reframes around, right? Like POCD, for instance, or pedophilia-themed intrusive thoughts. People are, you know, they think that they are monsters. That's what happens when they come into treatment. So just acknowledging, hey, you know, these types of thoughts don't make you a bad person is a really important part of the process. Now, if we're six months in and it's like, but Lauren, what if this thought, this time, this is my favorite, this time it feels different. This time, then I'm going to go, well, wait a second. And this is something funny enough that I do with my clients. I'm like, well, look, here's my conundrum. I'm trying to determine whether or not you're asking for reassurance right now, you know? And it sort of seems like you want the answer, even though we've gone over this before. So I'm reticent. And sometimes it goes even a little further. Like I'm going to ask you to stop because they're compulsively confessing, right? Oh, OK. You know what I'm talking about? Yes, I do. Yes. Yeah. And then I'll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. It's almost like, I don't want to listen because that's harmful to you. But one way or another that beyond that initial moment of checking in, it can very easily become problematic. So the alternative answer, can I refer to a reframe? Or are we going into exposure hour? Yeah. Would be like, no, I don't need that reframe. Or you may decide as the therapist, like, no, no, no. We've been through this before. You know what this is. So let's start to work on it the productive way. Totally. Totally. Let's talk about the exposures. I know we've talked about it. Yeah, no. There's never enough talk about exposures, right? This is cool. So you go to happy hour with your friend, AKA exposure hour. And what does that sound like? That sounds like usually, especially if we're going back to those text messages, it's like, this is uncertainty. Here it is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the answer to this question. And it's hard and it's scary. And then it's usually followed up by words of encouragement. Like you are a badass for sitting with and tolerating discomfort and uncertainty, and usually some gifts, preferably from Napoleon Dynamite. Wow, I learned so much today. I feel like I could skip an entire term in my grad program now. There you go. I know about the gifts already. I can skip that, of course. No, it's great. But I think what's interesting about that is, OK, so we're not doing the reframe. We're going into exposure hour. And we're going to start exposure hour with literally I don't know if that's real about you or not. That's the very first exposure. Maybe. That's usually where I go anyway. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people think, yeah, it makes sense. But a lot of people hear while exposure or OCD, I'm going to start doing ERP. So immediately, Lauren's going to start giving me, I have to start writing the thoughts down and saying them into a mirror and doing all those things, running with scissors. But not so much first. It's the acknowledgement of the uncertainty that you are not really sure about what that thought me. And then maybe we go toward it. Does that sound right? It does. With the one exception of, I think it is more advanced. I don't think that many people early in the process would go straight to that. That if I told them to do that, they'd be like, no, I'm not good with that thing. Is it with the uncertainty? Well, just in that sort of brazen away. That makes sense. Do you know, I think it's easier. You mentioned more planned exposures and it's easier to start out with those. And then when you find these sort of rogue incidental exposures coming up, you get to respond with these maybes and really face the uncertainty on purpose. So, I mean, obviously it's all down to accepting uncertainty, but it's a process and a practice. So, not all in one false group. Yeah. Anything else you're going to start small, I would guess. So that makes sense. So as opposed to just throwing it on the table, sure you may actually be a mass murdering monster. Right. That's maybe down the road. You can throw that out there as to illustrate the uncertainty because the person understands what that means. Totally. It's probably more of a gentle explanation of like, listen, we have to try to not answer that question. That's right. Exactly. I mean, it's back to this assurance versus reassurance. I think people early on, they think maybe, and they hear 50-50, maybe I'm going to go kill somebody tonight. We'll see. And that's not what we're talking about. We're saying, okay, we've decided on a rational level, this is likely and we're accepting uncertainty, but that's like a sliver of uncertainty. It's highly probable that I'm going to go out and do something that's completely against who I want to be. You know, that's such a good point because there have been so many times when I've told people that, like listen, the best answer you can give this is maybe. Just like with health anxiety, which I'm aware at health anxiety, they're taking it at that 0.01%. We've talked about this in a press video and turning it into a 60% chance of death. Totally. No, no, no, the statistics are not that, but your fear turns it into that. And I guess the maybe becomes flip a coin. Yes. Best of luck to you, like maybe you're a sliver, maybe you're not. So I do understand that. I guess it makes sense. Like no, no, no, no, no. It's a very tiny, tiny, but I understand your emotional reaction here is blowing that up into a certain doom. Totally. That's what makes it. That's it. Yeah, it is what makes it so hard and it what that because that alarm is going off in your mind. That's, that's why you presume that it is a 60% chance instead of about 0.01%. So I'm going to divorce you, you know. Yeah. I'm going to say, I felt like I should be paying you for CEUs like ahead of time when this video, but you know, I didn't think I'd never thought we'd get here, but in a way that may be the difference between a thought like in a non-disorder state and that disorder thought that would be part of the OCD complex. Like for me, I might think, is there a chance I might be a terrible person? Sure. I guess there's some chance, but then I move on because I understand that the chance is tiny. I don't know. Yeah. I guess I've made mistakes in my life. I think that's the point where, in a way that's the only thing that matters when you're in that disordered state that becomes overpowered. Right. Because of that feeling. Because that feeling comes in and hooks you and says, no, no, you can't possibly walk away from this. Yeah. It's super important. You have to be. Yes. Totally. Let's get to the point where, why you'd have to ask, do you need a reframe? Because I think, and I see this in know, even though I'm down the road a bit, I'm having a new thought. And I'm not sure this is part of my OCD. Is that the issue that you're addressing with? Can I offer you a reframe? Hmm. I think maybe to some degree, like, or it's, so I have, I have an interest, like I want to dialogue with you about this, I think, because I think a lot of people say, like, well, is it my OCD? Is it my panic disorder? Is it my anxiety? And I think that that's too simple. And people want to make it that black and white, people want to be like, Oh, well, that's just my panic disorder. I can ignore that. But in the moment, the reality is that it's down to, here's this thought and here's uncertainty. Do you know? And so when we're saying things like that, it's almost like we're saying, is it rational to respond in this way? But I think saying it in those terms is less likely to turn into a problematic form of reassurance, if that makes sense. It does make sense. Yeah. Because calling things like, Oh, it's just an OCD thought, or it's just an anxiety thought is a quick way to do it. And it's never it's rarely that simple. It's a thought. And there are probably multiple elements in that thought. Right. It's a thought that anybody might have, which is true. And you can't say that. But there's also that sort of disordered part of the thought that that's the part you're working on. Well, right. And the response to the thought I think is where that lies. And I think it's especially true for things like health anxiety. You're not it's not a health anxiety thought it's that you're having a thought about your health. And in response to that, you want to go, you know, next level with trying to make sure that that feared outcome doesn't come to pass. So but linking that back, because I think that that was linked in. But now, of course, my brain is you know, all meandering. I could sort of link it back, I think. So really, the question is this an OCD thought? Is this part of my OCD or my panic disorder is probably best answered in? Well, what do you feel the need to do right now? Yes. And how does it? Yeah. Is this important? Am I supposed to work on it? Should I address this directly the content? Okay, then it's probably Yes, that's it. It's like, it doesn't make sense to respond to this right now. Right. Right. And that answer may change too. That's the thing about that is it's not, you know, it's not. Oh, well, it's not doesn't make sense to go to a doctor right now. So it never makes sense to go to a doctor. It's like, right now, I don't have that information. And it probably makes sense to just wait and see what happens. Which case I say a health anxiety thought. Exactly. Yeah, I'm saying to people, are you are you feeling a thing now? Or are you worried that you might feel a thing? Right? Yeah, I guess that, you know, so that probably holds true with across all the spectrum, even an OCD like, well, what's the situation situation right now? I'm just unsure whether this thought says something about me. And so I'm compelled to guarantee that it doesn't. Well, that's probably an indicator that it is an OCD thought. Right. Yes. Yeah, totally. So that's what we're looking for is like on based on odds based on what seems likely with our rational minds, which is hard when you're you've got the feelings, but everyone can access it. Like, what would you tell someone else? Would you tell somebody else that they're in a really bad spot? Or would you tell somebody else that they could probably wait it out? You know, like, what kind of advice would you give that usually helps people to key in to what actually makes sense? Or what do you think another person in these circumstances would do? Do you think that they would respond by, you know, doing whatever x, y and z? Yeah, I dig that because people I know in the panic disorder community, and you see this every day, people are lovely, they're trying to help each other, and they can give each other good advice. And then, you know, scratch their heads and say, Why can't I take my own advice? Yeah, all true. And in the OCD community as totally. Yes, can give you great advice for your OCD. Right? Yeah, why would you do that? That sounds horrible. That doesn't make any sense. And then it's like, but this this feels different. I think that's advice. It comes from inside me. So therefore, it's automatically Well, what's interesting too, is I don't know if you see this in in the community that you work with that it's almost with OCD, because it flip flops so much between different ideas, or concepts or themes. Sometimes people can have a lot of objectivity around a theme that's not currently being hit upon, right? By them, it's not their theme at the moment, at the moment, but it was maybe like a week ago, and then it'll flip flop, right? So they'll then go back to that theme. And then all of a sudden they're like, Why, why was I ever worried about that thing? It's so I think that that can happen in lots of different forms of anxiety. Oh, it happens in the panic disorder and agoraphobia community all the time. Yes, someone will ask about you know, or rapid heartbeat or something. And someone will invariably chime in with some very helpful advice. Oh, I used to be terrified of that. Now I don't even think about it. But now they're gripped by it feels like I can't breathe. Yeah. And one day when they're over that they'll look back and say, Oh, why was I so worried about that? So yes, the same exact thing. Yeah. Yeah, I was terrified of that. Now I don't care. So I'll tell you that I don't care anymore. You're gonna be right. Yeah. Can you please help me with my jelly legs because I'm convinced that certain doom that's for sure gonna be the end of me today. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Brains are so brilliant, but so strange also. It's those feelings, man. They'll get you every time. Freaking feelings, man. Feelings. You know, there's a book called F feelings. Yeah. And I know that became super popular for a while like writing books with the word f u c k in the title. I feel like I should wrote one, but I missed that wave. Maybe it'll come back. Like skinny ties. It'll come back. Come back around. Yeah, that's that's really true. And one thing that I think is interesting when you say it's those feelings, man, I am fascinated by this. This is not a question. It's not anything. It's just me waxing over this thing. I always find it amazing with almost any feeling or thought if I say something ridiculous to me to you, you can discuss that instantaneously. We do it in religion and politics and what's the best baseball team like we dismiss other people's thoughts as ridiculous in an instant and walk away from them. But thoughts that come from inside us. We do not have the ability or we are conditioned to think I should not dismiss this thought because it's inside me. Yeah, how could that be? How have we conditioned ourselves and I don't know. I'm really going to look into this. Is this true across multiple cultures worldwide or is it just a Western problem? You know, what is it? I'd be fascinating for me to figure that out one day. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. And I think it's got to have at least some small part to do with it's it's in my voice. So it must mean something like it must be reflective of something that I believe. Because we see that in just in terms of prioritizing values that are not your own as well. Yes. If it's not it doesn't hurt me to not care about it. We see that now. Well, no, I mean like taking on so I like I'm thinking about in the in the context of eating disorders, particularly like assuming the cultural sort of the importance that you're placing on image body image. Okay. Even though that's not what you believe is rationally the most important thing in the world, because there's such an emphasis placed on in the culture that you kind of your brainwash, right? You're absorbing that belief because it's been sort of repeated to you over and over and over again. So you can see somebody else's worth isn't tied to that. But your worth becomes do you know what I mean? Like still it's tied to it. That makes perfect sense. And the brainwashing so body image is a perfect example of that, I guess that can fuel that dysmorphic problem or eating disorder. But I think the same holds true in the case of the things that you and I are addressing on a daily basis. I tell you how difficult it is sometimes and this ties back to do you need to reframe like is this a thing you really have to worry about? You're having a thought or you're experiencing an emotion. Like it seems incredulous for people to think oh I can disregard my own emotion. Is that possible? Because I think too many to a certain extent we are somewhat brainwashed. Totally. Absolutely. You must delve, you must find meaning, you must, this is your inner voice, your soul is speaking. Those are things that are damaging. I mean they're not bad statements but when they go off the rails in our community. But they are. I don't know. I have feelings about this because I love Daniel Kahneman and you know all of his work around biases and heuristics and our brains are flawed, deeply flawed. And so saying something to someone like just trust your gut. It's like don't know, why would you do that? Like it did not turn out well for Romeo and Juliet, okay? Like it's probably not going to turn out. And it might, it might, right? Sometimes it will. But I think trusting your gut without incorporating rationality is a terrible idea. In general. Not just in an anxiety context. Completely. I do not disagree. You and I are very similar. I think in personality I agree with you 100%. I literally did a 45-minute rant on that two years ago on my podcast. Why trust me is a terrible idea. Especially for people that we're addressing on a daily basis. That's the worst advice that there could possibly be. Trust your gut. Go with your intuition. It's telling you something. Totally. It's epically wrong every single day in this context. Yeah. Yeah. And people I think in our communities as well that confidence is conflated with certainty. And so you know you've got this, you're after this feeling too. That doesn't, it's not. It's not real. It's not like it doesn't tell you anything because people can be totally confident and totally wrong. So you know on one side it's like don't necessarily, yeah I know all the time. You're all the time when I'm wrong about a shit ton of stuff. So yeah. Yeah. No. Totally. Totally. So I get it. Interesting conversation. And I think it all plays together in a way. But can I offer you a reframe which started the whole thing was a brilliant, brilliant thing for me to hear. I felt like it was sort of eavesdropping on a conversation that it wasn't supposed to be. But there's this insight in there that I really appreciate that. We should have got Kelly on to do this with us, I guess. I know. Well maybe she can come on next month. Yeah, we'll bring her on next month. It's only if we dig her. But yeah. Can I offer a reframe? So let's let's sum it up here. When you're confronted with this scary thought, your two choices are do I need to test the content of this thought which would be the reframe, right? Yeah. Or. Or do I need to face the uncertainty head on and and just feel all of the discomfort associated with not knowing without trying to figure it out. Right. Because I'm not going to seek certainty on the content of this thought. Just leave it be. Right. I'm just going to let it sort of float there nebulously in the ether. I get that. I really do. I see people struggle with it every day. And then we did one early on of these if you go to my YouTube channel to the fire and ice playlist. I love that we have a playlist. I think you'll see we did one called to ERP or not ERP like when do you actually go toward this with the ERP exercises, repeating writing it down, blah, blah, blah, that's up. When do you do that? Because at some point that could become part of your kind of your reframe or do you want an exposure? Yeah. And that exposure could be doing some of that work, which we talked about it in another video. So yeah. Yeah. It's always so fun talking to you. You have so many wonderful insights. I always learned so much. Well, we never have as short as your words. That's for sure. Some people may wish we did. We came up with this literally like via text message an hour ago. Like, hey, let's do it like that. And I knew we would just, we could keep going, but you know. I know it's true. That's only five to 30 minutes. So anyway, if you guys are watching on YouTube, just so you can keep commenting, I will try and answer them as best they can. If I have to drag Lauren in to answer one at some point, I will. But otherwise, go check out Lauren on Instagram right there at the Obsess of Mind. And? Watch. Do I have to put me up? Yep. Myself up. Put Drew. Because I got the last one on the screen. Yeah, you point. That's good. That's, yeah, go check out Drew. He's wonderful and marvelous. Oh, and his podcast, Hello, also called The Anxious Truth. Excellent. Lots of resources there. So. Thank you very much for that. We're going to do one of those things where you do, you know, like what are they, like a TikTok or an Instagram takeover? But we can do a short guest takeover. So one day you're going to tune into The Anxious Truth and you're going to hear Lauren and Kelly make. Well, and then you'll just do purely OCD. I love this. I mean, like, oh, what have I gotten? What have I got myself into? We're so hip. I'm very impressed with us. We are excitedly hip. We are, we are sitting at the cool kids table now. So. Obviously. Stop them. All right, guys, thanks for hanging in there with us. I appreciate it. We'll see you, I guess next month. We'll do it again like we always do. Sounds good. Thanks for joining. Right.