 Good afternoon everybody and thank you for joining us for another episode of condo insider. It's our weekly show done with in conjunction with white council of community associations. Thank you so much for spending your afternoon with us with me today I have as my guest. I have two individuals Roy shishito with surface shield Hawaii, and we also have Sam with Almeida with Carlisle Carlisle is the company that actually does the warranty for the product. So first of all we're going to start off with Roy. So Roy surface shield has been around for about 15 years. And they're one of the major players in the marketplace for roofing. And I know you guys do a bunch of different roofing products from shingles to that, the one that comes on a roll and to the liquid applications you know where you just kind of code it with like that white stuff. And that now I know comes in different colors, but I kind of want to narrow in for condo buildings one of the most frequently used or one of the ones that are being widely used now is the TPO, the TPO from gas. So why don't you introduce yourself and then tell us a little bit about the TPO product. Hi, my name is Roy shishito rest surface shield roofing. Yeah, a lot of condos now that getting re roofed are re roofing with some type of single ply like TPO or maybe a PVC roofing type of material. The good thing about TPO is a long term roofing system. It does help reduce temperature within the building itself. And, and it's a lot more economical in installing in most most times. There are a lot of different ways to install TPO. This is just like a standard way and all these different ways of installation and everything else and depending on the design of the roof or what is specced out for the project really would depend on the cost of the TPO itself. So what would be. How, how is that TPO applied. TPO can be applied. There are a couple different ways it can be mechanically fastened with cap, or it can be fully adhered with adhesives. Normally fully adhesives are better, better when uplift and things like that. It would be really depending on maybe the spec writer, or after you meet with the board of directors was involved in to come up with a game plan. Like a sample of the TPO product right here. And it's kind of got like a felt bottom to it. And I'm assuming because I for the other, what they call, I just know it comes in a role and you see the guy with the torches. Right so this wouldn't be the same type of method application. This is a fleece back so it'd be a here with adhesive. So you got fleece back, and they'd be 115 mil fleece back or 135 mil fleece back. What they're really equivalent to is a 150 mil is basically a 60 mil TPO and 135 would be 80 mil. And it really depends on how you're going to be installing this roof and the method or what you are trying to achieve. If you're trying to achieve some type of positive slopes to the drains, then you most likely would not be using a fleece back. You'd be using a reinforced type of TPO with a dense deck and probably installation that would be tapered to your drains. So it really depends on the project and the situation that you're trying to achieve. So usually when you lay this project, this product on the roof, the existing roof has to be completely torn off. If you go fleece back, you can go over an existing system, depending on making sure that the substrate is no blistering has a real good pool test to it. Then you can go over the existing just to help to try to control costs. And normally going over the existing would be kind of being your fire barrier also. So it really depends. If you're doing condos, most times it's going to be done to cold, especially if you're doing an old condo. So you're going to probably do some type of installation to get the ARF value. And then you're going to do a recovery board and then a TPO on top of that. And under all of that you're probably going to be doing a temporary roof while you're roofing it so it doesn't leak into the facility itself. So when you actually go to a site visit and you look at the existing roof, you're also examining, not just the roof, I mean you're looking at where there's existing ponding problems. Also, if the water is being slope to goes off the roof. And you're also going to be looking at their drains if they have drains that lead into gutters. Yes. And that will basically looking for positive slow to the trains, or if it is sloping to the ends if you have a nice process will slope to the ends yeah. So that you don't have no sitting or standing water. Every, every flat roof will have some type of standing on sitting water after rain. What you don't want is ponding water and ponding water is something that stays there every day, all day long, 12 months a year. You know, but if it dries up with an X amount of time that would be okay. So if it dries up within, you know, 24 to 36 hours in most times after the rain with its most times within the warranty. Okay. So in that that time you'd also be examining or at least letting like say we're dealing with a condo board you'll be looking at their drain slopes making sure that that drains into if they have a gutter like a gutter system I would assume that most of them have a gutter system, that that gutter system is in order. Otherwise, you might need to have the board consider that they need to fix their gutter system or their drainage. Yeah, yeah. So that there would be a really good examination of the roof and the other components of that roofing system. Yes. So at times would even order roof the existing roof to core it to see what the composition of the existing roof is at that time. And that way we can tell if it's already been slow or not slow. Tell us some stories about the roof to ourselves. Yeah. What if the building because some of these condos have like, you know, like the cell towers, or they might have PV what happens at that point. Well, if you're doing TPO, they have special booth that will waterproof around the penetrations. So PV they have a pre made boost that can go around the penetrations or you can also pre fabricate boots on the job site itself, depending on the situation. What about the cell towers. Same thing you would sell towers you probably probably modified at the at the job site. Okay, okay. And what about maintenance, the big thing because we maintenance. Okay. With costs going up, you know, and maintenance fees in that equation. How will TPO be able to possibly maybe on the reserves, like they can extend it life a little bit longer. So how can a board try to get a longer life. Okay. Well, what keep you yourself, it'll last longer than a natural or basic modified bit of me roof itself the ground you want the road ones that you're saying. That it will last longer than that. But to maintain it you should make sure that the drains are always cleared off from vegetation nothing growing in that the roots cannot get into seems and break down the roof. You want to make sure you check the flashing and detail areas on the roof as it ages to make sure that nothing is opening. And if it's under maintenance, you would look at those things and you would do those repairs as needed. Drain wise is usually up to the condo association maintenance people to make sure they have it on a program to be checking those drains, and also to have it on a, like an emergency storm situation where you know, the storm is coming like a hurricane that automatically all the drains and gutters get pre checked prior to the storm coming so that you don't get no excess overflowing in your gutter system that gets into your roof and and everything else. So what if you they find that there's mold growing on the roofs, you know, like, would they just pressure wash it or do they apply a detergent to it. Normally, you would just use water pressure wash it with water. Yeah. No chemicals. Yeah, you don't want to use too many chemicals getting it into your dreams into the grass into environment. Yeah, you try to keep it more green as possible. Yeah. And then I think I was reading somewhere that this product is led certified or something like that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that with some buildings trying to be more energy efficient, because I think the sun's lowers the water pressure or something. Yeah, because it is white, right. So it does reflect. And that's why if you're doing an older building and you're trying to do it to cold you're going to put in all the necessary installations and everything to to achieve your your your your factor. Okay. And it'll give you some value no matter what. But if you're trying to get it to cold, then you got to add in for, you know, installation to get the actual or 20 or whatever you're trying to achieve. Is this le lead certified, you know, those people that are trying to go all I can jump in there. Yeah, yeah, lead is is for architectural type of systems, and it's more designed from a ground up. So typically that would be more for projects that typically new construction, where they're trying to meet a certain level of environmentally friendly type of materials and installation. So lead is just an organization where they're trying to go green. So in most condo applications because there's reroof, you will typically apply for lead will be more for new construction, where it takes into an organization where the products are manufactured if they're recycled, how much energy saving so it's a little bit of a complex program but that's more reserved for the new construction types. What your homeowners or condo owners are going to be looking for is basically like Roy had mentioned the r value and what our value is is reduction in temperatures in the interior building so you want to high r value and reflectivity. represented with sri, which is a solar reflective index, and that basically reflects the heat coming in from the exterior of the building so those as condo owners what you want to look for is a high sri or reflectivity and a high r value and the r value comes from insulation. The sri comes from the reflectivity of the membrane. So the person that's on the top floor would get added benefit with this product because it might lower that temperature down. Yes, but if your buildings air conditioned, like some condominiums are you know they condition the whole building or at least the hallways and that then everyone will benefit there because you're reducing the load on the air conditioning. But yeah, like you mentioned, the buildings that don't have fully air conditioned it's only the top hormone and really reaping the benefits. So I've seen that happen. So Roy how many, like, how long has TPO been around. Well people have been around for a long time you know it's probably into its fourth or fifth generation already you know they just keep making it better and better. I can give you a little bit of history on it. I think it's pretty interesting. So the TPO actually, you know, for the for the older guys. So if you remember, when you're young, the P the dashboard on your car, it would be cracking. That's because they should be PVC and the PVC crack so they changed that and the car manufacturing industry came up with TPO. So the TPO started off in the car manufacturing industry because it had good UV resistant. And then someone said hey we should put this on the roof. So they started doing a roof. That was about roughly 30 years ago. So it's been around for around 30 years. It became really popular about 20 years ago. So it's had a pretty good life cycle and that's sort of like, you know, you don't want to do a sort of system that's been around 10 to 20 years. And it's gone through like Roy had mentioned like a couple generations already. And so that's why it's become more popular. Well I had checked out the website for this part for the GF website and are they still doing testing because they have certain buildings that they're actually that they had put this product on. And after so many months or years, they've actually gone back and retested the product. And so that's really the possibility and it's tinsel strength and all that kind of stuff. Is that project still ongoing? Yeah, they've always doing these testings and they're doing them out in these big farm areas where they have membrane set up and they're taking constant measurements. And so they've had a couple of different tests. I know the Midwest Roofing Contracts Association, they had one and that's got a pretty good interest in report. Like Roy had mentioned, there's TPO and PVC. Those are the two type of plastic membranes that are out there. And so they, and there's a couple of different variations of them as well. So each manufacturer, they try to differentiate themselves. So some might add more certain different types of weathering packages. And so they're just trying to try to figure out, you know, which one lasts and what they claim to do. And also all the manufacturers require to meet ASTM is the American Society for Testing Materials. So they have to meet those minimum requirements. And so some manufacturers, you know, they go above and beyond because, you know, they have their R&D that recommends, you know, to go this route. But recently, about probably about 10 years ago, they did see some deterioration on membranes because as you know, building designs change a lot. And what they found out was there was deterioration that was not planned for. And that was because a lot of buildings nowadays have a lot of windows. And so you see all these new high-rises. So a lot of the TPRs were getting extra reflectance from the actual windows. And they were burning up the membranes. So, you know, they've gone and revisited and say, well, what's causing all this? And they, you know, they do these studies that try to find out, you know, what's happening here. So they found out that's some of the new challenges that come up with new building designs. Wow. Yeah, pretty fascinating. It's really scientific and I could probably talk for two hours. I don't think I want to bore everyone. Okay, so Roy, TPO is really more for what kind of residential or condominium properties. Like you can't just put it on any kind of roof, right? It's going to be for a low-pitch flat type of situation. So like anything with a, you know, like that. Yes, anything less than a 312 pitch, you would normally put a membrane on it. So you're like low-rise town halls automatically out of the picture or pretty much, right? Low-rise town halls with a very low pitch, you would put that on there. Anything with a pitch less than 312. Okay, so what is meaning that is meaning is, you know, three inches per foot on the rise on the pitch. So basically anything under 312, you would do some type of membrane type of product. Okay. Can you think of any townhouses around that would, as you can think of in the short time? Because I only think of... Yeah, you know, the only... Most townhouses are fairly pitched there, so I wouldn't really say there's one out there. It's either going to be a flat old concrete building or a roof with, you know, a slight slope to the drains or something, you know. And not a bunch of the townhouses, like towards more on the older side of Mililani. A lot of them have those flat roofs, and sometimes you get a mixture. You get where he has the pitch roof with the shingles, and then he has some flat roofs, like for breezeways or garages. So sometimes you just see a mixture of those. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So a little bit more about how the material gets applied. Okay, the way they get applied, like I said, there's basically two different ways. One, it's going to be either mechanically fastened to your substrate, or it's going to be fully adhered with adhesives. So adhesives are always stronger, you know, they get better wind uplift. It depending on the substrate, yeah, and I guess in economics. Okay, so let me ask about the adhesive. So how long what is the life of that adhesive because, as you know, one quarter of my roof, kind of like lifted up and when I, when I check they go, yeah, sometimes the glue gets you know, so I'm like, yeah, how does the, how long does that adhesive last? Well, that was, I would say would last the lifetime of your roof versus a modified bitumen. It just held on with heated tar or self-hearing surfaces that will break down over a period of time because it'll dry up, the resin will dry up and then the adhesive will give way. The adhesive that are used for roofing materials are, I mean, they don't break down, they're there forever pretty much, you can't even, you can't even separate it, you know. Yeah, I would say last the duration of the roof until the day that you're going to be a roof fit. I've never seen a TPO that's pulling it, I hear delaminating off the roof. Yes, the adhesives, there's a couple of different types. There's one like a contact cement and so that's very high adhesion rate and like Roy says it does last the lifetime of the roof. Then we also on the fleeceback membranes, they're like a urethane type of adhesives and as in the industry, urethanes are one of the best that he sees around. So they have a pretty good lifespan and typically give a life cycle of approximately around 30 plus years in those type of systems. Okay, yeah. If it did delaminate, it would still be covered under warranty for what, if it did, for, you know, worst case scenario, right? Well, it depends on the type of warranties and I was talking to Roy about that. So that's one thing that condo owners can understand but it can be a little bit dizzying array of different types of warranties that manufacturers offer. So when you do look at a warranty and on a commercial property that this, this is different from a residential one, you're looking for what they call a full system or total system warranty. Sometimes indicators that NDL or no dollar limit and what that means is they're going to get a warranty that covers any, any sort of defects in the material, the application, the adhesion, and why they call a total system warranty because it's not just the top surface, it's the glue, the insulation, the screws and it covers everything. So, you know, in that case, if you're going to get that total system warranty, you're going to have the manufacturer supported because they provided all the components of the system. And they've had long term testing with each component. So it's not like, you know, you're getting the membrane from manufacturer A and the adhesion from manufacturer C and the insulation from someone else. It's just all one system and all warranted by the manufacturer because they have these systems work within conjunction with each other. And so there's no dissimilar materials so that's what's important. Having those components that have been tested and tried and true. And then you're going to get a warranty that's worthwhile. If you're just going to get a warranty where it's just material only warranty. Then they just basically warranting fact that that membrane will last X amount of years. And if there is a defect. They'll replace the membrane but they won't basically cover any defects related to adhesion or any moisture intrusion and workmanship. So those are the two main types of warranties out there. So, right. Let me talk a little bit more about OSHA. So, every, your company, all your employees have trained about OSHA. So, who actually oversees the project when they're on the job site. Because there has to be a level of comfort with the board and everybody that these guys are wearing their appropriate gear. And so what kind of training does your company use to make sure. We always have a farming on the project. We always do a pre site of the project before we start. So we know what we're getting, I mean getting into. We also have a safety officer that will come to the job site to make sure that everybody is harness in and hooked up properly and following all OSHA rules and regulations. And we monitor those things. And we monitor that pretty strictly. So, we have somebody that checks out the project every day. Is there an inspection done. Well, I think I'm leading up to the warrants, but I don't want to go too much into it because Sam's going to be on another segment. So, during the application process, is there a check to make sure that the application is being done correctly to make sure that it's, you know, according to the manufacturer specs and also making sure that, you know, is being according to the warranty and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's being applied correctly, not just. Yeah, yeah. So we do pre site. We do safety monitoring. And we do post inspections when the job is completed. So on T field will be picking all the intersections, picking on the patches that T joints. All of the accessories or protrusion or anything on the roof, they will be doing a pick test on it to make sure everything is fully adhered to the roof. So we do check our work before we're done. We don't just go, we're finished today and we're off the roof. They will be an inspection before, before everything is closed up. Like I said, we do a pre site and we do a post inspection. Okay, so I think we only have like about three more minutes. Any other words or advice you have Roy that you want to give to your boards. I think, you know, T field is the way to go on most condos nowadays, you know, modified vitamins was the thing of the past. You know, they only last between seven, eight years and you need to do some, some type of maintenance because the grand as we're starting to fall apart on it. There's a lot of themes on it because they're only three feet wide versus T fields can be, you know, six feet wide or maybe even longer wider at times. So, you know, and overall it's a lasting, a longer lasting product and it's cool right off the bat. You know, you don't have to go try to code it to try to make it cooler. And, and like forces, you know, I'm going to say about Carlisle, you know, Carlisle. They're one of I think one of the few or only keep your company they have a puncture resistant warranty. So if something did puncture the membrane, you know, they would give us the patches of why we're to go out there and repair it. You know, so I think that's a really good warranty. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, hurricanes things get blown away right so that could be puncture. So that would be that would be a benefit. And again, it's a maintenance because after some kind of storm like that, any kind of heavy windy storm, then the roofs need to be checked. Yeah, for that kind of stuff. So what's not really into is that, you know, they have just a handful of installers that are approved. So to get those high end warranties, they have to be reputable company like surface shield that's been doing it for a while, and that they have been vetted and being trained. And, you know, once you have that combination there, and you're pretty good in terms of what roof system you're going to get. Okay. Okay, so I think we're nearing the end of our time. So I really want to thank both of you, Sam and Roy for being on the show today, we are going to follow up on our net and one of our another future segments with just Sam to talk about just the warranty. Because there's a lot I mean just a few minutes I talked with you the other day I'm like, wow, there's more to a warranty than I thought. Well, I go a lot more that I was like, wow, there's a lot. And I think that's going to be important for boards to know about these warranties. Because as we know there's been a roofing major roofing company that condos have always used, and is now now out of business of the roofing roofing industry. So that's affecting some people that had just recently got the roof stud and now they have no warranty right. So, I think boards now need to look at, not just the product, but also the warranty that can help to with some of those, you know, like product defects and, you know, that because they'll, you know, I think you know the long term over the life of the product is eventually could save them on if they really follow the right things. Because nobody likes main and fee increases, but you know it is what it is and I, I know there's going to be massive increases over the coming years with just a lot of things that's been going on, because of the Florida collapse and now we have the Fire Department and the life safety evaluation. It's, it's, it's a heartache. It's heartache that we all don't want to think about but it's the reality. So, thank you again, everybody, both of you are being on the show. Thank you. Nice to see your faces versus email and phone calls, you know, and we'll follow up again again we're going to have Sam on another segment in a couple of weeks that will just be on warranties. So, thank you both of you. I really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy days to do this condo insider and to educate our condo boys. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.