 really excited to be here with Miles Kessler. So Miles and I are in a private WhatsApp group of other business owners at a particular level of experience and we have some really interesting and helpful discussions there. And so Miles, I just, you know, love your presence. And I think it's, I can't wait for this conversation. So Miles, just briefly, you know, you are the director of the integral Dojo, which is an online school for meditation, Aikido, et cetera. And yeah, so there's a lot for us to discuss. As well as the integral Dojo and TV. So there's a brick and mortar integral Dojo and there's an online integral. Right, right, right, okay, got it, yes, yes. And so what we're gonna talk about mainly today is meditation from a more unique perspective than maybe a lot of people, more unique, I think, than the mainstream. But is there anything else you wanna say about your background intro before we get going? No, I think that's good. I mean, if it comes up in the context, we can stick with it. Sure, sure, yeah, that sounds good. Okay, so- Let's dive right in. Let's dive right in, yeah, totally, totally. Meditation, obviously, mindfulness and meditation, huge topics and of interest probably to most of the people listening or watching here. And so just about everyone's, maybe learn meditation in the mainstream ways, basic ways, pay attention to your thoughts, your breath, et cetera. What do you bring to meditation that maybe it's a bit more unique than the mainstream question one or question two, whichever one you wanna address first is what is integral? Since you lead the integral integral Dojo, what is integral and how does that fit in with meditation? Okay, well, let's save that second question for later. Okay, okay. That's a very different question. Okay. So let's just, so maybe I will say a quick word about my background. I'm, you know, I'm, I've practiced in the Buddhist tradition, the Theravada Buddhist tradition of mindfulness based meditation, kind of hold lineage in that, in that the Burmese Mahasi tradition. I actually have two lineages, I have a lineage in the Wama tradition of Aikido, which I lived and trained in Japan for eight years. And then after that, I went on to study meditation. So I did this really kind of formal, traditional hardcore meditation practice in Burma, which is a very pre-modern context, very traditional context, loved it. I was kind of trained in doing that when I was in Japan and it was easy for me to make that, make that transition into Burma. And I guess what's unique about what I'm bringing is, sorry, my daughter's over here, she might hear a little bit of a background noise. Yeah, no, no, there's no noise, go for it. Okay, cool, cool. So what's unique, I suppose, is that I have this traditional context. You know, I actually, you know, I spent three years on meditation, silent meditation retreat in a formal context with teachers and, you know, going through guidance and so I have that. And yet I don't teach from that perspective, although I teach through that lens, I definitely teach what's called the Progressive Insight, this kind of developmental path that unfolds in the practice of meditation, but I do it in a very kind of post-modern way in a way that's kind of just meets people where they're at here in the West. And I guess I work with people in three ways. The first way I work with people is to help them just beginners or people who've been meditating for a while, but they never did a formal practice to help them get established in a formal practice with kind of a formal methodology, formal mindfulness meditation technique, that's number one. Number two, I help people progress along the developmental stages of insight knowledge, that there is a blueprint to consciousness that as we kind of take on spiritual technologies, we will kind of grow spiritual maturity, spiritual growth follows along this kind of developmental path. Doesn't really matter the tradition you're in. Different methodologies will unfold differently, but there is this kind of developmental path that people who kind of get a little bit more on the deep end of meditation, that's kind of really important for them to kind of know what's going on and where they're going and to know that there's a goal to the practice and that they're moving in that direction. That's really the most valuable, I would say, work that I do with people, but it's always a minority of people who are kind of doing that. And the third way that I work with people is how to integrate and bring meditative insight into daily life, into the world, into the context that they live in, to relationships, into the ups and downs and the stresses they face in life and shadow work and all that stuff. Awesome, I would love to kind of touch in on the second and third that you mentioned. I think, I don't know if I can assume this, everyone please feel free to comment below what one, two, three you can rewind and which of the three are you most interested in? I imagine a lot of people watching or at least some of them have already developed some kind of meditation practice or they've tried. At least, right, as myself included. And we're trying to figure out what now and also just as importantly as you said, how do we bring that into the world, into relationships, into our work, et cetera. Yeah, right, day to life, yeah. Yeah, like you can meditate all you want and still be a jerk, it's like, right? And is that an application of meditation? Maybe, I don't know. So tell us about, so this is interesting, like there is a pathway. I mean, there's a blueprint for consciousness as you say and there's a developmental progression of meditation. I'm sure we could talk about this for years but if you could summarize what that blueprint or pathway looks like for you. Yeah, I actually can. Yeah, all the different spiritual traditions, the ones that have been around for thousands of years, Buddhists and Christianity. Actually, I should say all of the mystical dimensions of these spiritual traditions because sometimes the spiritual traditions are just about preserving the dogma and passing on the traditions. And there's always that mystical core which is what the real kind of deeper spiritual transformational practice is about. All of the traditions usually, they usually have some type of map of how their practice unfolds. Some of the maps are very general, simplistic in a way. Other maps are super granular, granular, you know, they really get down to the details. And the tradition that I come from, you know, the Mahasi tradition of Burmese, the Pasna meditation, they work with the Abhidharma which is Buddhist psychology and they use a map called the Visurimaga and the Visurimaga is the path of purification. And in that practice, as you move through states of consciousness, over time, you know, incrementally, gradually, you'll move through 16 stages of developmental insight knowledge. The eye of insight will gradually open as you learn to practice, establish, develop and grow your mindfulness meditation. You'll move through 16 stages of development of knowledge until you gain the path as kind of awakening experience. It's the end of the path, but it's not really the end because there's always, you know, there's always more practice. To go into that is really, it would be really kind of like getting into the weeds. So I think it's better to speak about, you know, the blueprint of consciousness, something very easy to understand. You know, if you think of the Samsara, the life that we live is a prison. These maps from the spiritual traditions, they're the escape plans for the prisons. You know, they kind of show us the blueprint on how to get out, even though we're not really moving out, we're not like, we're not, you know, escaping a prison. What we're doing is we're establishing mindfulness meditation or awareness or presence and the process unfolds in a way that follows pretty much all the maps. A much more easier map to understand is from the early Zen tradition. The five stages of, oh my God, I just forgot his name, I feel horrible. Tosan, five stages of Tosan. Chinese, one of the Chinese patriarchs. And he says that spiritual development, and this actually applies to kind of those three stages that I just spoke about earlier, the nuts three stages, the three things that I do with people. First is seeing the absolute in the relative. So we're in this kind of relative world, we're going around, we're learning how to manage and you know, and grow and kind of discover who we are. And we have some type of transcendent experience. You know, some type of unity consciousness or whatever. There's an awakening, maybe it's through another person or through an experience, it could be through an intense, difficult experience, it could be in meditation, it could be with drugs even. But something awakens and it's like, oh my God, there's a bigger reality here. But it's a fleeting experience, it happened and it's gone. But that's an important first step, that's the first stage and the five stages of Tosan. Second stage is we learn awakening, sorry, tasting the absolute in the relative. Okay, so we live in the relative world, we taste the absolute, we get a glimpse. Second stage is establishing the absolute in the relative. So that's the stage where we take on practices, we hang out with communities and maybe teachers or guides or different traditions. And we take on practices that help us where it just doesn't happen to us, but we learn how to access the deeper spiritual experiences by ourselves. And that could be a 10 year, it could be a lifetime project, but it is quite a process. So that's establishing the absolute in the relative. Awakening the absolute or tasting the absolute in the relative, establishing the absolute in the relative. And then when that, when this kind of establishment, this practice stage matures and reaches its peak, it's kind of like the top of the mountain, we're resting in the absolute. So we've created the ability to just rest in, you could call it absolute love, you could call it unity consciousness, you could call it emptiness, you could call it the state of perfection, whatever it is, but we're able to rest there, top of the mountain, far away from all that nonsense that's happening down at the bottom of the mountain, it's kind of liberation, it's free. But it's not the end of the path, it's just the third stage. The second stage, we have to come back down the mountain. So the fourth stage, after we're resting in the absolute, now it's seeing the relative in the absolute. How do we bring this relative existence? How do we, after the ecstasy of the laundry, how do we deal with the kids? How do we run a business? How do we have relationships? How do we, that's kind of the coming down of the mountain, that's kind of the returning to the marketplace part of the journey. And it's as arduous as the upward journey, the return journey is as tough and arduous as the, as the first part of the journey. And then the last stage is when relative and absolute are one. It's just all one. So this kind of, this is like a very kind of classical, you know, the five stages of Tozon is a classical definition of kind of how a person's spiritual practice matures. Seeing the absolute in the relative, establishing the absolute, taking on practices, resting in the absolute, then the fourth stage is seeing the relative and the absolute integration. And then that fifth stage is when it's full integration when absolute and relative are one. So. Amazing, yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Really cool. And I love this very simple, you know, diagram. And yeah, and it's, and well, it's enlightening that, you know, I can imagine some people, they think that's it. I'm there, I'm done. And then they're not really applying it to their life. And that's where we see, yeah. Yeah, or I mean, some people think they're done. It's very common in all spiritual traditions to have a false awakening. You know, it's somewhere halfway up the mountain. But we don't have to get into the details of that. But that's actually kind of part and parcel of the process. That's why if you're working with a teacher, working with a tradition, they're going to actually kind of guide you through these potential pitfalls. But the resting at the top of the mountain, it is a noble thing to take off, become a monk or a nun, the rest of your life, live in a monastery, live in the woods, live in the forest, live in the mountains. It is a noble thing to do, not to return to the marketplace. But if you are, well, certainly if you're a householder, returning to the marketplace is key. And one could argue that returning to the marketplace is really what humanity needs. We need, you know, the bodhisattva, we need that awakened mind back in the mix of things so we can all kind of grow forward together. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, because everyone around me is a householder, that's the experience I have. Yeah, me too, totally. Every spiritual teacher that I know is a householder and every spiritual, even monks or whatever, whatever they want to call themselves, they have a business or they have a, they're in the world, they interact with them. But yeah, I agree. There are like people who are dedicated in the monasteries and the caves that they are also helping to awaken, you know, humanity. And yet, yeah, everyone here listening, watching, we want to be enlightened householders or we want to be, at least really more of the conscious, you know, the more awakened perspective into our day-to-day. So talk about that a little bit here. I mean, you have your own experience of running a business or running a dojo, you know, leadership and dealing with so many people. I mean, this is a broad question, but how do you bring that on a day-to-day, moment-to-moment basis in terms of your own spiritual awareness into the day-to-day? Like how do you do it? Well, you know, it's funny because I spent 16 years out of society. I was living in Japan. I was teaching English about 15 hours a week, wasn't much. I lived in the countryside and I was training Aikido full-time, hardcore. Wow. What area was you in, by the way? Ibaraki Prefecture, it's north of Tokyo, couple of hours away from Tokyo countryside. And there was no internet back then. I had a shortwave rate. After two years, I had a shortwave radio, no television, just living the life and training full-time, reading a lot. But I was kind of like a hermit or a monk. And then I spent eight years kind of dedicated to the Aikido path, sorry, to the meditation path to support that because there were planes and there were donations to give after those long retreats. I traveled around and taught Aikido, but I was still very much, so I was in society, but I was still very much this kind of guy that no obligations in society for 16 years out of the world. And because of that, the practices I did went extremely deep. I developed, that's my career, is based on that's kind of my doctorate or my degree, but it was so clear for me that the real work that I needed to do was to come back to society to return to the marketplace. And that's when I began my integration work. So unlike the average person, they're doing meditation and kind of doing the best they can. And then immediately having the application of it to their life with the kids, with the work, with whatever driving and traffic, like really, like it's a long, slow process, but the integration is happening from the beginning. In my case, the integration happened much later and it was a tough all coming back and dealing with business, dealing with students, dealing with relationships, dealing with financial stuff, dealing with all of the stuff that it means to kind of be a household or a business operator. That was quite a process for me. And it meant that I actually had to go back and I had to kind of clear up a lot of my issues around power, around money, around sexuality and relationships and a lot of therapeutic work actually was done in there and coaching and so that process, it became clear that that was just, even though it's so easy to bypass that and say, no, no, let's just go to Nirvana. Let's just go to heaven. It was so clear that, no, I will not be complete. I will not be an integrated human being. I will not be healed until I actually take on this, this kind of, this work that is far from being spiritual, but it actually became the most spiritual thing I could do was to change the diapers, to clean up the mess, to take responsibility. So I'm not sure if that answered your question, but yeah. Well, no, it's really interesting. I mean, so the development you had as basically a monk for all those years, right? Kind of, yeah. Yeah, it's like, in a way, it made it tough to operate in society because of just the day-to-day logistics and the day-to-day relationships. I wasn't dealing with, I wasn't dealing with, I wasn't operating in society. Yeah, and so, well, maybe tell us a bit about like what is your practice now? Having done so much of it, do you have a morning, evening routine? Do you meditate in the middle of the day? Like what do you prefer? Well, that's actually a great question. So my practice is much more spontaneous. I, you know, when you're, it's so important to take on routines, as you know. It doesn't matter if it's meditation or business or, you know, whatever. Install some good habits and take on the routines and stick to those as much as possible. Don't blame yourself. It makes perfectly no sense to judge yourself if you're not, if you miss a day of meditation or if you miss a week of meditation or if you miss a month, you miss a year. Okay, when you come back, you come back. That's all that matters. Now, what will happen after a long-term practice is that those practices start to become internalized. And at a certain point of internalization, you don't need the external discipline anymore. The discipline for me, if we talk about miles, is actually like in the middle of, you know, doing the monthly accounting when I'm dealing with all that stress. The discipline for me is like, okay, how can I make this part of my mindful routine? Number one, number two, how can I get better at dealing with this stuff? You know, skillful, like masterful. Because I developed this mastery in Aikido. I developed this mastery in meditation, more or less. I want to have mastery in all domains of life. So I would say that my, like Miles Kester, my main practice right now is number one, developing mastery in my professional life. And number two, continue to evolve my teaching, the way that I teach, the way that I work with people. You know, every time I sit and work with another person, it's like, okay, we're working on their development, but it's actually, I'm developing myself as a teacher, as a transmitter, as a communicator, as a listener, as an intuitive, all of these things are happening. And not only that, I'm also developing my ideas, developing what is my unique offering? What is my authentic expression of these traditions that I've been deeply steeped in? Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, wonderful. And I want to ask, and then we'll start to wrap up, but I want to ask you about that second question I raised earlier, the integral, that word integral, integral dojo, I personally am, I'm fascinated, I'm a fascinated beginner with integral. I've like dabbled in it over the years, and, but I want to hear from you, like what does integral mean for you? Why is it important for you? Well, first of all, what if you could describe it in your own words, and then why is it important for you, or how does it fit into your world? Okay, I'll try to keep this short because it's very, very in-depth. Yes, yes. Elastic theory, you know, when I was a kid, I loved maps, you know, I would read the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings and I'd go back and look at the maps so many. So maps and geography was my favorite class in school, and the maps, I just love maps. Sometimes there's a map on, so we were talking about maps and meditation, and basically integral is a map of the cosmos, as a human being, how we show up and how we can show up. And it turns out that the map is not so, there's kind of five basic frames that cover everything in the cosmos as a human being. And the first is, these stages, levels, lines, types. First is states, like that there's meditative states, what we've been talking about, that we move through different deeper states of meditation. That would be our spiritual maturity. The second is stages, that there are developmental stages of consciousness that we can actually see take more and more perspectives and as we mature, and this has, as we mature it gets more spiritual, but it's not really a spiritual tradition because as we mature, we're able to have more caring, each level of perspective, we're able to have more care and concern for the world. So we go from egocentric, just myself, ethnocentric to my people, world-centric to like, I include all the people, all the colors of the rainbow, like I can bring them into my embrace and listen and connect and have an emotional agility and relating and then all of, cosmo-centric. So that's kind of would be stages and there's developmental practices that help that. States, stages, levels, no states, huh? Ah, quadrants, stage, quadrants, levels, lines, states, types, sorry. Okay, so there's four quadrants. Again, I don't want to get too in the weeds here, but there's also types. Let's just say I'll wrap it up with personality types, that there's types of people and that if we really want to learn how to relate in human relations, we need to be skillful in relating to different types of people and also understanding our own type. Now, why is this important is because when my whole, basically my whole life, even since I was a kid, has been all around one practice tradition or another, sports, martial arts, Buddhism, practice tradition. And when I work with people, I'm actually working from a practice context. And there are three, if you want to have a, and this is, we'll wrap it up from here, that if you want to have a balanced integrated development, there's three basic practices that you need to work on. Three basic domains that are covered in integral theory. The first one is states, that you want to have some type of spiritual technology that kind of helps you go from an ego existence towards more of a spiritual understanding. The second one is stages, these developmental stages that I was talking about, you need practices that helps you take more and more perspectives, that you can put yourself with cognitive empathy and another person's shoes really relate, get them from their inside. And then the third one is shadow work. States, stages and shadow that we just need our own kind of therapeutic processes for the parts of ourself that are disowned, wounded, disassociated, traumatized, whatever. We need to kind of bring those back in and integrate our own interiors. And if you're working on, if you have practices in the States, if you have practices in stages and if you have practices in shadow, then your personal development will be an integral, will be an integral development. Amazing, thank you. I know that was a whole PhD, right? Like that, you know. Yeah, maybe bit off too much there. No, no. And maybe it's important to say, if you don't bring in States, stages and shadow, if you're just focusing on one, your development will be very good in that one, but you're gonna be imbalanced. Right. So, you know, there's a lot of spiritual teachers getting in trouble because of their shadow. Yes, yes. Or your issues with money, for example. So all that stuff needs to be integrated. Money, money, sex, et cetera, yeah. So, that's amazing. I mean, that's why people can learn so much from you. You have something called the Meditation Discovery Cycle. It's like a 30 day. Well, tell us about that and I'll put the link to that below. Yeah, the Meditation Discovery Cycle is my meditation membership program. I have a community and it's actually been closed for the past year. So we have a pretty, pretty intimate group committed in meditators. We meet, you know, I get online with them twice a month. I also do it once a month, I do a Q and A, but then I send out daily practice videos, not daily, excuse me, weekly practice videos. So it's for people who actually want to, want to kind of integrate a meditation practice into their daily life. And it's called the Discovery Cycle because we take these different teachings and we move through them month by month. There's another theme. In fact, right now we're in the middle of the 10 spiritual perfection. So there's different qualities that get developed as your meditation matures. And we're taking a theme per month. This month we're on resolution. The last month was, I forget the last month, generosity. And so we're working through these different. And I'm actually opening just by coincidence that we're doing this meeting. I'm actually opening it up for the first time in a year. And I'm giving people a 30 day free access if they want to come in and try meditation. They can come and join and meet the community, meet me, get the practices and see if this is for you. Yeah. And it includes some time from Q and A time with you as part of that, right? Yeah. Well there's, we do two, every two weeks we meet online for like a meditation session where I give a little bit of a teaching. We sit together and then we do some a few questions. But then also once a month there's a Q and A session where we get and I just take everybody's questions and we stay, you know, it's usually about an hour but I stay online until all the questions. There's also a group of meditators that meet daily online and meditate together. So any of your audience who might be interested in joining us, you are most welcome to come in. Yeah. Awesome. 38 access to try it out. The link is below. If you enjoyed this conversation, I think you'll enjoy that program as well. Miles, thank you so much for the work you do and how you do it. Thank you. Yeah, likewise, George. I actually, I really enjoy your work as well and your content and you're helping me more than you know. No, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.