 Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly joining me as always my one and only co-host Tyler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Fantastic. Good to see everybody. Good to be here. Absolutely. And also joining us for the first time on the show reporting live from the, the all points. I assume it's Jordan. What's up, buddy? How you doing? I'm doing good. Yeah. It's like to talk about some slaves and away from my, my pretty tissues, order, order elves and whatnot. So. That's right. It's time to fall to darkness. The ruinous powers have claimed us all. I realized tonight, somebody like tweeted in response, you know, will they fall to chaos? And I was like, I own every chaos army. Now, given my Nurgle Force was against my will and it's a very small force, it's, you know, only like maybe it's not even a full 2,000 points. But I mean, I have 13,000 points of Skaven and something like 9,000 points of slaves to darkness. So I feel like I'm, I'm, you know, I'm in the club here. Okay, I got, I got this, this is my home. I didn't realize it, but I have truly given way to the dark powers. So, but before we get to that review, of course, we've got some news. Tyler, what's up, buddy? I've been instructed to keep this under five minutes or less per. So let's go very quick here, folks. Remember engine? Of course, it's a 40 K thing. It's always a 40 K thing. Let's move on with our lives. Correct. You can tell from the machined bolt, as I told Tyler earlier, they don't have machine machined parts on AOS things. So this. Okay. Next. Check. We'll show this Friday at the US grand open finale. So they're doing a little preview show. They sent out an image. Looks like we might be getting the update to the baltome. We've been wanting spigots. I want to see the new spider kit. Let's do it. And any other goodies I've got. So 9 p.m. Friday, 10 p.m. Mount standard time of 12 midnight for east, east coast folks. 11, 11 o'clock for eastern. Yeah. It's two hours. Yeah. So, so basically 11 o'clock eastern cycle from there. Like 10 central and four a.m. or whatever in the UK and western Europe and that time zone there and five a.m. for France and, you know, west of the western Europe part. So, or eastern Europe, whatever. You get it. You understand. You know where you are. So anyways, yes, a lot. Like it's late. We probably won't do a show even when they do announce kits, which like they tweeted out that image or whatever. And it had all the glowing mushrooms in it. And it just couldn't have been more saying like, Hey, by the way, like at this point, if they don't do gets disappointment. Disappointment. Yeah. I'm at a wedding on Friday. That's the only reason. But I don't know. Tom is at that same wedding. So I guess anything's possible. We'll see. All right. What else we got? Good luck to everybody this weekend. Excited. They're going to have some coverage. So that'll be nice to see. They'll be streaming some age of similar games through their their more alive. So yeah, looking forward to that. And then warmer fest tickets are on sale. April 29th, May 1st 2023 Manchester Central United Kingdom. Looks like a pretty incredible event. Single day entry, 20 pounds, standard weekly weekend entry, 40 pounds, got a goodie bag version. Yeah, Vince, you're going to be there. I'll probably most likely I'll be there. Yeah. Like 95%. I should be teaching over in the UK either the week before or after that. So there's kind of no reason not to go to fest as well. If I'm already in the UK. So it's kind of meant to be aligned there. So yeah, should be good looking forward to it. Okay, that's it. I think that's it. Next. Next. All right, we did it. Okay. So next thing, pick of the week. Jordan, what would you like to share with everybody? I got to give a shout out to some fellow Battle Report creators, my buddies and all our buddies over at Rewrulling once who when I'm it's funny when I'm not editing or playing or filming for Battle Reports, I'm usually watching them while painting. And they've been pumping out a bunch lately with like the new, they had slaves on slaves, Archie Oliver Spellacore and a bunch of others out recently. So I've been enjoying those. So I got to give a shout out to the whole crew over there. Very nice. I will link that down below. Tyler, what do you got? So a friend of the show, Alice, she did an in-depth review at Goonhammer, the slaves darkness battle tone, read that earlier today, really enjoyed it. And then I actually haven't watched this yet. I came across it just a little bit ago, seeing what else is out there slaves darkness. So this relatively new channel, I think it's relatively new, Swalhammer SWLE one word. They did a faction focus with Emma, Emma Mingles. So anything with Emma, I'm sure it's going to be insightful and fun. Yeah, recommend that and look forward to watching that maybe after our show here. Nice. Fantastic. Well, I will I will see your two picks with my own two picks and break form. So first off with one connection to last week's episode, where we reviewed the ogre battle tone, go check that out if you haven't yet and you're interested in ogres, also a very fun battle tone. And that would be if you're interested in the lore side, a thing we never talk about and will never talk about for the most part on this show. You can check out our good buddy two plus tough. Doug is over there just getting that hot ogre maw tribes lore right into your veins. That will be linked down below. Great stuff. Nice, easy 15 minute video. Get all the get all the knowledge you need about the maw and the ogres and what they're all about. At the same time, if you'd like a little review, a second voice about the marks and some of the stuff we're going to talk about tonight in the S2D review, our buddy Paul Conte over Radio Free Hammerhole is also very excited about the S2D book and he put up and he put up a video about that. So check it out. And I'll answer Nick Sakomano. There we go. Sorry, Nick, if I mispronounced your last name. Absolutely. We're pushing toward 100k. We can get there. I believe in it. But hey, if you just hit like, I'll thank you very much for that. So everybody hit like for to give your soul over to the powers of chaos. That's what I say. But yeah, subscribe if you haven't, we're going to jump into it. Okay. Awesome. Well, with that, with those picks out of the week, let's talk about some hobby time. Jordan, you mentioned watching their reports while you're painting. What have you been painting while you're locked inside the Varenspire there? Always too many things on the draw at one point. So generally between finishing up a unit of Sips Stockers for OBR, I'm about... You need nine, Jordan. I actually need 18. I know. I only want 18. I only have Sips at the moment. But finishing them up also halfway through a unit of 10 win chargers from Lumenath. The reason I've been bouncing back and forth between those is because Lumenath with all the trim is just honestly so painful for me to paint. I like to do it for two nights and then have to work to something else. And then between those things, also building and prepping to paint a ton of slaves to darkness, the new stuff all coming out. I just actually spent a night working on the Demon Prince and I threw big thick pins into his wrist and head so I can interchange all the different head options and weapon options. So that was really been doing that. Always too much on the draw. That is a lot. And also that Demon Prince, it's funny how much battery looks without the goofy head. Like they put the worst head on him in the art. Basically all of the God-specific heads are better, a couple of them better than those. I also saw our good buddy Doom and Darkness replace the head with like the O-Groid with one of the O-Groid Therodon heads and that looks like perfect. So I mean the point is there's a lot of good head options in that box that aren't the default undivided head which honestly is not great. He looks kind of silly. So hey, but four out of five ain't bad. I'll take it. There's even two undivided heads and the other one is much better than like you said the one they showed. You're right, you're right. Yeah, absolutely. Just like that was the worst one to assemble it with. And then, yeah, let's not, yes, agreed. Okay. I thought I had a lot of projects going, but that's a lot. Okay. And in proof that aesthetics is always personal, Mark says, I disagree. I love the main head. Hey, there you go. Look, that's, you know, different strokes for different folks, I suppose. That's always, you can never tell. Tyler, you got any hobbyin' done? What you've been painting, Tyler, now that you're in the club. I really got to get back on the horse. Been slackin'. Lot of games. Lot of games. That's got to count for something. I'm lovin' this book. The TTS. So, hey, all my thoughts will be in the show. So I'll just take it back. How many games have you gotten in so far? I have played six games. Pretty good. Yeah, not bad at all. Not bad at all. I have gotten in, I've only played two, but I also got to play against slaves once. So we'll call that three, right? That's still, you still had to see it in action. It's just, you know, it's a similar thing. Okay. All right. For myself, my hobby time, I dig at those games. And paint-wise, still making my way forward very, very slowly on the, on one of those Ogroid Therodonts, but he's for Golden Demon. But instead in turning to some video efforts this week, we've been painting up this guy right here, Mr. Little Golf Rocker, dude, because he's cool and fun. And orcs are fun. And an orc with an electric guitar is the most fun. So I just couldn't help myself or resist. So he's painting that little guy up for a video. So that'll come out very far in the future. But yeah, there you go. I'm looking to get some more, more stuff going here very soon. But it's a lot of, not enough time in the day, it seems, unfortunately. And this, this traveling nonsense has to stop. Too many other things going on. I need to just sit alone in my house for like three weeks and paint, nothing else going on. So I, anytime that can happen, I look forward to it. It will never happen, but it'd be nice. All right. With that, gentlemen, look at that in, in near record time. 15 minutes yet. Amazing. We did it. Mission accomplished. Unfurl the banner. Here we go. Gentlemen, we're going to talk about Slaves to Darkness, S2D, the 2022 Battletome. As per usual, I'm going to hit my high level overview here. And then I want to go to you both of you for your thoughts on this. So here's my high level thoughts. This is a very different book than the previous incarnation. Unlike Ogre's last week, where when we talked about it, it was very much kind of a gentle evolution of the previous tome. This is very, very different. Now some of the units still might have similar ish rules, but the way that they work, especially as an army, completely different. We've moved away from bubbles and buff management into a sort of solo operator toolbox with marks enhancing certain roles where you want to have certain pieces in your army filling very strongly into certain roles. So away from the mono God build that you would have seen before as you were trying to keep everybody cornmarked to have your generals big aura bubble out to everybody equally or something because, you know, if they weren't getting the general or the heroes buff, who cares? They weren't getting anything from the mark. Now to sort of mixed marks for maximum efficacy. There is lots of good choices, but you very much can't have it all. I'd say there's pretty decent internal balance in this book, but there are there are some losers and traps in here for sure. For those who aren't aware, there was a day one FAQ for this, but there are still more issues remaining. Happily, my final two thoughts are one, the iron wall of chaos is back. It's back baby, the thing that with that I that I wanted and didn't have in the last book, like we just forgot chaos warriors and chaos knights and the mainline things are supposed to be interesting and good in the last book. Nope, those are back in a big way. It's a big time for those. And secondly, Johnny's rejoice for you have you have the book of books that has been placed in your lap. This is very much a Johnny book. Like I can't I cannot say that strongly enough if you love list tinkering and playing with stuff like that, this this is your book. Okay, there's my there's my speed run overview. Jordan, I want to come over to you first. What's your 40,000 foot view take on on this book? Do you like it? And what what have you noticed so far? Yeah, I think you nailed it with like kind of the the comments about that being a Johnny book. There's we went from or the book went from having predominantly two builds for the past couple years to incident like even with this within days, obviously, this has been there were images floating around a while before release. But it's like there were five builds that emerged that people were talking about commonly. Normally, there's always one or two or often the past there's always been one or two. But there's, you know, a couple more than others, but there's still I think a lot of depth to this book. And with like you said, with the number of war schools in here, there's endless amounts of tinkering and depth to it that I think, you know, someone that's really invested in the book can be exploring it for months and a long time to come. Yeah, absolutely. Real quickly, for those in the chat who might not be familiar with these terms to throw around a lot. Johnny, Timmy and Spike, what is Johnny? Johnny is wants to express something. These are psychographic profiles. Johnny is your list maker, your innovator, your wombo combo breaker. He loves interesting synergies. He loves taking units that don't seem good on the front and then making them, you know, really, really good due to clever play. And Johnny likes it when there's a lot of different pieces and parts that he can put together to suddenly ramp the efficiency way up to 1000 like that that he can see through the matrix to the code and build something that is greater than the sum of its parts. That's Johnny. Okay, Tyler, what do you got? Yeah, any specific questions for me? I mean, obviously, there's so much to say about this. Yeah, just give me the high level, man. Hit me. What do you do you like it? I love the book. Yeah, I mean, I think it does have a fair number of misses, but that's to be expected with these massive battle tones like Stormcast, right? There's going to be four scrolls that are going to be redundant or dismisses. So internal balance could be better. I think it's fair to say most of the sub factions are sufficiently attractive, not entirely sure about the spoilers, but I can see play for all of the others. Maybe you guys will have some thoughts on the spoilers help me figure out what we might be able to do there. The I think the external balance will be good. It's a melee centric army, most melee centric armies in the history of AOS, stay in check by the nature of what they are. Apart from that period, unless it's the early period of 2019. Yes. Yeah. So, which is a whole other topic. But yeah, so I, my guess, I'm curious what your guys, we want to make some predictions here on the win rate where this minded up. So like participation rate, player rate and win rate. I think the player rate will be pretty high on this battle tone. Once people start getting the armies painted up, there's so much you can do, so many cool models. I guess the win rate will be 49 to 51%. Kind of what I feel it or 48, 52%. So we're around there right in the middle is where I think it'll settle though. But yeah, it's an incredible book. I've been playing a lot of Kabbalist. I just kind of not going full hard just dipping my toes in like three heroes pulling the spells. You can still get a lot else. Love Kabbalist. Oh yeah, I can say more about that when you get into sub factions. But really well done overall. Jordan, you want to take a swing at some numbers? For one percentage, I would say I expected to be like probably like 50 to 55. Like, you know, probably sitting at 52, 53, which is a great spot to sit. I think just the, there's gonna be a lot of depth to it. But I think there is good efficiency just in the War Scrolls and stat lines alone that will allow your average player to win games just on the backs of good units, which is a great thing. And yeah, so I think it'll be above average, but nothing too crazy. Yeah. Yeah, the problem is it's very hard to combine. So like the only books that combine a large player base with a high win rate have auto win buttons in them. So like Sons of Batman, right? Johnny books don't hit 60% or 58% or something like that. They just don't because they require like the skill floor is too high. And so when you, when you up the player rate a bunch, you just get people of like players of lower skill playing the book. So I do think you're right that there will be that this will have a high percentage on the player rate. I don't know what that means. I don't know where they sit right now. What high defines as probably I would assume like seven to 10% is high right now. That's what that's traditionally been a high number. Understanding that like if everybody split all armies evenly, it'd be like 3.5% or something like that would be the the average. Of course, that's not a real number, but still I mean, to me, it feels like it's right dead in the middle. It might drift slightly higher because you know, like that is to say, maybe you'll end up at like 51%, something like that. But that that feels like very much the range to me. I mean, it is a melee only army, as you mentioned, and like melee only armies for the for the most part, like melee only armies just have problems going, you know, getting out of control, because they have to go risk something commit something to win. Now there are some challenging scrolls in this book that might need a little bit of tweaking. But like if I had to make a guess right now, take both of these books on FAQ'd unchanged unpoints between like the ogre book last week and this book this week, what ends up at a higher win rate off the rip? It's the ogre book 10 out of 10 times. Okay, because iron blaster castle like is just way stronger. Like it's ridiculously stronger. It's too strong is the answer as we saw at just one sample tournament this last weekend. But that's a problem. Like you don't want list that restricted here. As you mentioned, Jordan, there's just so many lists that seem at least interesting to explore viable and we're talking about like from a competitive angle. When you broaden that out and you say like, well, I'm not going for the most competitive thing. Then then it's just like even wider, right? Like if you're just talking like middle competitive, it just goes crazy. So okay, other thing that stood out in my play my game so far. Command point, the lack of command point generation is a very healthy constraint on this battle tone. This book has a lot of ways that's wanting to use command points, starting with rally, you know, potentially on a five up right with 90 thrown or so that felt nice, that constraint. It was playing with warlord a lot to have an extra command point. Appreciate that. And it plays the fundamentals really well. Like it's one of those factions that can help you get better at the game in terms of positioning and counterplay, right? And it has the mobility to do that really well. Like the classic would be you put your, you've got two by six furies. And you put it's kind of like ether wings or something, Jordan, you know, you probably did this a lot with either. You put your ether wings out on an objective tip toe them in and whatever comes into them, you have a unit in place or units in place to counter attack, right? And so like it does that really well. And it has such good threat ranges on a number of units. It can do it especially well with chaos nights and baron guard and even chosen with the slanish command ability to run in charge. So anyway, I thought that's been really enjoyable and kind of how it plays the fundamentals well. I agree. And like Fabian had said, it seems like the list building is hard, but not the actual playing. If some list become very good, net listing could carry the army up. My issue is I think the playing is actually hard to win with this because like what you just said, Tyler is not, that's not push your models into the center and stand, right? Which is the bar we're talking about for SOB. Like you do have to use your piece as well. If you let like your knights get caught flatfooted and don't get them on the charge where they need to be, if they're not picking the right target, if they're hitting into something, they can just bounce and or get picked off very easily. Like they're not that tough, right? Even with a better save now. So like there are real, like you have to be using your pieces in a right way. Your stuff is expensive for the most part. There are exceptions, which we will talk about. Okay. Now actually, I'm going to start with a sort of different kind of slide here. And that's because before we get into any of the allegiance abilities and stuff like that, I actually am starting with just this buff overview. Okay. And the reason I wanted to start with the buff overview is because I think that it's really important to have this in a table form where you can contextualize this. Because otherwise, as you're reading, it becomes very hard to remember like, wait, which one goes where, what can I be stacking together? Now you can just read across and understand what can apply to what. So I wanted to kind of go through the marks. Now the only thing I don't have on here is the command ability that generates from the mark. The marks also each of them generates a command ability for the hero. We'll talk about those in just a moment, but they're less impactful when taken as a whole. The Slenesh one may be as a singular exception. But other than that, you know, they're kind of just like oftentimes ignorable, I suppose to a point. So all right, let's get into it. Here we go. Undivided. So the undivided mark itself, when applied to a unit, mortal and ogroid units gain eye of the gods. So this means like your knights and your warriors and stuff like that can gain eye of the gods and hence roll on that table and get those bonuses. You roll differently when you're rolling for a unit than you do for a hero. We'll talk about that in a moment. Heroes who are undivided get to reroll one die after you've rolled both dice on the eye of the gods table. So they're good at eye of the gods. Okay. Now there is also an ensorcell banner option, a unique enhancement. Think of it like mount traits or something like that in other books. Those can be applied to chosen chaos warriors and chaos knights only. Those are the only three units that can carry the ensorcell banner. I'm kind of sad that the ogroids can't carry that, even though they have a giant banner guy. That would have been cool. But here we are. Okay, one keyword. They'll be fine. Yeah, it's like it's fine. Like it's just it would have been neat. It would have been a neat option, right? Because it's kind of cool that you can like give them they gain the eye of the gods keyword, right in the first mark. So like it would have been neat if I could have then given them the undivided banner as well. So whatever, but it's a minor thing. So with the banner for undivided, you can roll two dice for your unit on eye of the gods and pick either one. So when they benefit, remember, they gained eye of the gods. Now when you roll for them, they get to roll two dice and pick either one they want, increasing the chance that you get the buffs you want. Okay. All right. The demon prince has a unique heroic action that they can use. And it's based on the mark that they happen to have. And for undivided, that gives them always strikes first. They don't just have the ability by default anymore. We're to talk about heroic actions a lot because I think this book is I honestly, I think we're down plumbing that well too deep. I like there's just there's too many heroic actions. There's too much going on as far as that goes in this book. And the war shrine, which classically can grant prayers, which the prayers are now locked, the unit has to have the mark as well as the thing. So you can't just like give the Nurgle prayers some rando corn unit or something like that. That's not how it works anymore. The prayer is mark locked. You have battle shock losses. So pretty underwhelming. Okay, let's just talk undivided abilities here real quick. Jordan, what do you like in the undivided line? What do you deserve? If anything, right? And where do you where would you use the undivided stuff just looking at these buffs in an army? I think the eye of the gods on, you know, getting out a bunch of units is that's a lot of fun. There's gonna be different kind of tech and synergy in there. And I think this, you know, great job is from the channel love slaves darkness, we talked about it a bunch. That's, I think he said it. I have the gods, I think it's gonna be one area that hasn't really been talked about a ton. But I think there's gonna be a lot of, you know, opportunity there to do some funky things. Yep, agreed. Tyler, what's your take on this? So expanding on that, the one of the last games I played rocking 10 chosen, which is going to be very popular. I think in a lot of list 10 shows are just phenomenal. So I, the TLDR is that by the end of round two, if I were undivided, like let's say Legion of the first prince, which I think is really great with undivided, I could have have could have rolled four times for that 10 chaos chosen unit by the end of round two. So the pregame candle conduit, they killed radical and when they killed radical as well as 15 out of 20 great guard or finished off the remaining great guard out of 20, they took an objective. Yeah, like that really stood out like four times with the banner rolling two dice on a unit 10 chosen stacking brands, whatever else they might be able to get. So I do agree with Jordan. I think there's some really interesting play there. It's that. And yeah, I dig the banner. Yeah, there's a prince. Yeah, good, good, please. I mean, the demon prince has issues, which we'll get into later. But yeah, it does. Um, the yeah, I mean, for me, I've found I've always been including a couple of little tiny undivided heroes in my list, just because of the the mark bonus where they get to reroll one die, especially my new favorite boy, we'll talk about in a little while the exalted champion of chaos, the exalted hero of chaos or whatever. He's he's the best boy, my new favorite little guy. And just like having lots of chances to level that dude up is actually really rewarding and fun. I think this will appeal very much to sort of a certain type of player who likes these kinds of RPG mechanics, because you do feel like you're just leveling up all your units during the the game, right? Reminds me of another thing. So there's a key sequence or with the eye of the gods table, right? You can potentially roll two ones and turn your hero into a chaos bond. Sure. That's a problem if you're going after a very easy battle tactic, all a sequel, which we'll get into from the book. Maybe I can save this for them. But the undivided keyword plays a key part of that in helping to protect your hero that you're rolling at a condo the spell for to give you that easy battle tactic. So I'll say more about that later, but I think it's really interesting in that context as well. Yep. I have not cast chaotic conduit once yet, because every single time I've rolled to cast that spell I failed. I've tried it in every round of every game I've played. It has never cast. Were you rolling a 3d6 to cast? Exactly. I was not, to be fair. I was just rolling good old fashioned 2d6, but it's not that hard of a number. It should have happened at least. I'm not saying it got unbound. Okay. I'm saying like the dice were just like, nope, this is not happening. Give up. All right. Just one of those funny oddities that stuck out to me. Okay. Corn. Our favorite angry boy, Mark. The mark bonus is plus one attack on the charge. You know it. You love it. Can't complain about it. It's solid. The banner, again restricted to chosen warriors and knights, is plus one to wound for melee attacks. Also seems pretty good. Not a not a bad thing at all. The demon prince heroic action lets you heal one wound each time you slay a model. Very corn. We all know how much corn loves healing. I mean, I am aware that that is an option on the table. I'm not sure it's the one pick people choose very often, but hey, here we go. And the war shrine is plus one to charge, which yeah, cool. Works well. Obviously corn is for the most part looking across this. It is your highly offensive mark, right? If you want to be, if you're playing by the ABCs, this is the place to be. So, Jordan, why did you play much with the corn mark yet? What do you think about this one? Yeah, that's the first one I jumped on like many people. Just the synergy you look at something at nights at the empty throne where you're all your mounted stuff gets to run in charge, gives you a lot more speed and mobility. And, you know, looking at things like, you know, hard to drafts with 10 nights and and verandar. Both of the marks are great for all of those. And the banner on the nights is, you know, is amazing. Just they'll hit on four. So, you can only get the data threes, but wounded on twos automatically is amazing. So, just, I think that's, you know, that's playing a little more to the spike players out there who want to, you know, go smash stuff. But that's definitely a build that I think I'm excited for and is a little more linear, I think. Though still the same, like we talked about, there's still the same weaknesses of, you know, shooting and positioning are very important. But, yeah. Final flash, jump out. Sure. Final flash. No, the plus one to wound isn't when you charge. The plus one to wound is just melee attacks. It's all the time. It's not, doesn't have to do with charging, which is nice. It's just, it's just a flat thing that's around, which is cool. That's what's really strong about it actually, as a banner choice. Tyler, about you. Yeah, I'm not a whole lot to say here. I did a little wound. No, you could make him a wizard and cabalas, arcane bolt, another d3 mortal wounds, corn commandability, another d3 mortal wounds. Again, I don't know if you're going to spend a command point on that, but you could do some interesting like d3 mortal wound stacking, maybe spiked tongue curse, et cetera. But I thought that was kind of clever. But yeah. I did have to use spiked tongue curse in a game this last weekend. I was down to it. That was like, I was digging as deep as I could go. Okay. The zinch mark. The general mark is a six plus spell ignore. Okay. Like, okay. Should have been a five, I think. That's, boy, is that nothing. The banner is a four plus ward versus missile attacks, which okay, that's actually not too bad. Depends on, you know, how much shooting is in the meta as to the value of that. Same with all of those banners that are like that. There's, you know, armies all over the place have like four plus ward against spells. And it's like, okay, well, how many, how many offensive spells are floating around in the meta, right? If a lot, then it's good. If low, then bad, it's pretty easy. The demon prince, depending on the turn you, you use the heroic action, it's either a two plus spell ignore, which that's a much stronger spell ignore I will grant or, or it lets you cast a spell or have a new spell depending on what happens to be going on with that particular character. And then the war shrine is neg one to be wounded. So neg one for things attacking that unit to their wound roll. Overall, I find the zinch mark the least readily like accessible, the last, it's the least interesting to me, but I don't think it's bad. Like if we end up living in iron blaster meta, then all of a sudden that four plus word becomes really strong, right? If spell doms continue to be a big part of it, and you see a lot of, uh, technados and, and stuff like that out in the meta, sure, then, you know, having some kind of spell ignore might be valuable even a six up. I don't know, but it just feels underwhelming. Like it feels like it should have been a five up spell ignore. That's, that's all I can think. Jordan, so I mean, go ahead, Tyler, I'll let you go first. You go first this time. What about Yeah, I was going to say. So the zinch spell, the zinch spell that you get when you go zinch keyword, that's a huge part of the attraction of this in my mind. This is certainly, I think zinch is going to be one of those Johnny areas. People can lean into list building combos, interesting synergies. I mean, there's a number, right? You could have Legion of the First Prince. You have just take five basic chaos nights that go in with corn. They're plus one attack. They come out with zinch keywords through the Legion of the First Prince. And then you have a zinch wizard that relocates them. They're pretty good on the charge. So you can set them up. They have a, they changed one of their dice to a four. So all those equal, can you roll a five on four dice, you know, with the reroll included? Yeah, sure. That's, that's interesting. You can do things where you reposition wizards through that zinch spell that could be used. Theoretically. Theoretically. I could be used offensive. I mean, Cabalus can turn a lot of this on. It could be used offensively with endless spells, getting them out. So yeah, I mean, there's various tricks that you can do with it. I think it's kind of intriguing for the most part. Yeah, zinch isn't obviously attractive. Fair enough. Jordan, anything else on zinch? Yeah, I think the high point that jumps out like on paper is, is the four upward or one of the most obvious things at least on the banner. But two of those three units already have a five upward or against mortals. That's true. So yeah. So most effective here, though, on chosen that have, have no word saved at all. But it's still on anything else. Yep. I will also say there is a subtle thing I didn't list here that's worth mentioning with the zinch mark. And that is, if you're zinch marked, you can go in the silver tower. So it does open the door to the unit being being able to be put in reserve and then coming out of the gaunt summoners stick. Right. So like that's that's sort of a hidden thing for the zinch mark, but it is a thing. Okay. Nurgle. Oh boy. We're back to neg one to be wounded in melee. I'm not welcome back. Welcome back. Neg one to be wounded in melee from the mark. This, this goes back to like making your guys toughness five when they have the Nurgle mark. I mean, as somebody who's played Warhammer since the mid nineties, Nurgle mark was classically the one of like, Hey, did your army want to have some fun? Well, stop having that right now. Stop it. All of our things are egregiously tough and hard to wound as a class as the classic Nurgle thing. And it's back. So there you go. The banner, which is not what it says in the book, it is updated as per the FAQ is neg one to rent for melee attacks versus the unit that carries it. It is not the greatest banner in the entire world. It's just really, really good because neg one to rent is really good. It turns out the demon prince heroic action. This is the best one on the list, which is no word rolls for units within three inches. We'll talk about some ways about that when we when we get later on. And then the war shrine has the only offensive buff out of this whole lot, which is plus one to wound for melee attacks. I mean, Nurgle pretty squarely sits in the I don't want stop hurting me area. This will be a very popular choice for sort of blocks of chaos warriors, as you already mentioned, things like that. Jordan, you know, what about Nurgle Mark? You played around with this, this bad boy at all. Yeah. 10, 20 chaos warriors, like you said, might want to be wounded and yeah, made one rent. It's makes 20 blocks nearly unmovable. Yep. You know, especially you can back out and then rally on a, you know, five up. Yeah. I don't think there's anything more to be said. It's it's Nurgle is this like, I don't mean this in an offensive way to Nurgle players, but the Nurgle one is the most smooth brain of all of these. It's just like even more than corn. It's just, it's so obvious what you're supposed to do with it. Okay. Not that that's bad. It's fine. Like it's, it's a perfectly good mark. It's, it's quite strong, but not busted. Slinash. The Slinash mark is plus one to run in charge. Very classic Slinash bonus. The banner is plus one attack on the charge. So it plays interestingly with corn mark. Tyler and I have both talked about, we both played around with having like two by five chaos nights in lists, one of them being corn marked, one of them being Slinash and carrying the banner so that both units of nights are plus one attack on the charge, that kind of thing. The demon prince's ability is also plus one attack on the charge because we just ran out of Slinash things. And could it, by the way, could have just given her fight last, the inverse of the always strikes first. It could make somebody fight last, right? Cool. But hey, what do I know? I guess, I guess we're so scarred by that period in 2019 that Slinash is still in timeout. It's fine. Our day will come eventually. It might have to be like fifth edition, but we'll get there. And then the Warshrine, what's that? Ogre is our living life right now. They're, they're like, it's night, it's 2019 all over again. So yeah, absolutely. Somebody's having fun. Somebody's having fun. And then the Warshrine has a really great prayer. This is a true stand out for me in that they can, the Warshrine prayer, all those prayers are on a three up, by the way. I didn't state that, but they're all three up prayers as we'll see. Grant somebody a 3d6 18 inch charge, right? Where you can roll 3d6 and you can declare the charge to 18 inches away. Really great, really great ability. There are two sources of that in this book. The other one, which can be more universally applied, is also more limited into the units it can target, which is relevant. So this is quite a bit more universal. You mentioned like slanesh chosen earlier. Oh yeah. And boy, oh boy, do they love when that Warshrine prayer comes around their way. It's a great day for them. Okay. So now that we've kind of got this framework here, all right, now the people have seen this when we get into the individual items, we can spend a little less time on them later. And I hope this helps people because when I was reading through all the war scrolls the first time I was like, wait, how how much access to plus one attack on the charge do I have? Right? Like depending on what I what can I put together to get that? And the answer is one, right? It's one. It's never more than one. This is a blood stoker and blood secretor free space tonight, everybody. Yeah, I mean, we'll mention the corn thing. The corn problem. Yeah, we'll get there. We'll mention it. All right. Now let's get into the actual Allegiance Villies. Okay. Oh, interesting. I don't know what my time is because like Streamlabs just quickly momentarily reset. So give me a second here. I got to look at my actual time. There we go. Okay. I had to bring up my other clock. All right. Allegiance. The loop. So okay. We already talked about this is the marks page. We already talked about all the basic marks. Let's just quickly touch on the command abilities here. Undivided gives you a command ability at the start of the combat phase that you can pick an undivided unit and give them plus one to wound if their melee weapons are targeting an enemy hero or monster. I hate this command ability. It is a combat phase command ability, which I already hate. Number one, because I always hate command, like, because I can be roared out of this. Okay. That's number one. And number two, it's competing with all an attack and all defense, which are still better than this by far. And three, it's then further restricted to where I have to be fighting particular types of enemies. It's not the worst thing in the world. I will openly admit, but it's meh. It's fine. It's fine. It's a hot five out of ten. Anybody disagree? Nope. Not a fan. Okay. It feels a little, yeah, I don't know. Some of these feel a little incoherent to me or just just off. Yeah, sure. They're very strange. And yes, all that is correct. Final Flash. They have to be issued specifically from a hero with the mark. That's right. So you can't have, like, a unit champion issue these, which is kind of annoying. All right. Corn gets a command ability that they use at the start of the charge phase that basically gives the unit a standard two up D three mortal impact hits. Fine. Like it's fine. You're, you already meant my, my problem with this one is I'm not saying it doesn't have use cases. I'm sure it does. Sometimes you just want to kill like get as much wounds in on the charge as you can. Right. But my issue with this one is you are very command point starved. You starve for everything in this army. As a matter of fact, like as I mentioned, the heroic action thing, at least with command points, you can generate multiple a turn. Now, other than one exception in this army effectively, you can only do one heroic action a turn. And I got like five of those I want to be using every round, right? But this one just barely feels like it's ever going to actually hit the bar of like, yes, this is worth a command point. That's the issue. 100%. Yeah. It's like I said, if you are looking to do two wounds or even a wound, right on a key hero for a battle to something for a battle tactic, I for an eye gain momentum, like, okay, but it's going to be very situational for the most part, you're never going to do this, I would think. Yeah. All right, Siege gets a spell instead of a command ability, and it is called warp reality. And it is a very confusing spell, even after the FAQ. I, this spell is, okay, this is a tough spell to use. I'm just going to say it straight up, all right. And it has an FAQ question baked into it even after it's been FAQed once. So it's a spell of the casting by of six and a range of nine inches. That is very short. If successfully cast, you pick one friendly Zeench unit visible to the caster and remove that unit from the battlefield and set it up again within range of the caster and more than nine inches from one of the units. Also, it can't move. Also, they have to be within range of the nine inches. Okay, so yada, yada, yada. Okay. FAQ questions. What happens if I pick the caster? Sure. I remove him from the battlefield. It is now time to set him up again. How do I satisfy the set him up within nine inches of himself? This came up on one of the discussion groups. I pointed out the flavor text, which I know this is a rules as intended argument, but to me, the flavor text makes it very clear what they intended, which is that you're not doing this on the caster. So it doesn't really matter. I see you're just saying, if they do rule it that way, then yeah, they need to. Sure. I mean, by the way, I'm also not sure. I think the reading on this is that you can pick someone at any range. Yes. Right? So they can be anywhere on the board, but you're warping them back to the caster. Okay. Flavor text. Eldritch energy binds the sorcerer's allies, translocating them back to the sorcerer's side. Sure. That's like slam the case on the intent. The cool part is it can pull them out of combat. The problem is, like I said, it doesn't, nothing about it prohibits the caster from targeting himself in which case then what happens? A paradox and he, and he explodes, I guess the game over. But so like it's neat because you can grab somebody at any range, but it's kind of doing the opposite of what you normally want to do with a teleport, which is you want to pull somebody from somewhere around you and put them somewhere else, whereas here it's pulling somebody from far away and pulling them back to you. So it's, it's a little hard to use because the range doesn't limit the target seemingly, also probably worth an FAQ question because it just says visible to the caster. That's the only restriction on the unit chosen. The range only comes up when you set them back up. Um, I, yeah, I, I, Mitchell, that's one interpretation. Nine inches from nowhere is anywhere, but another interpretation is nine inches from nowhere is nowhere. So he cannot be set back up. That would also be a fair reading of the rules. So at any rate, it's a weird spell. I dig personally, like, I mean, I get some of the issues and these clarification, et cetera, but I love that it's the opposite of what we're familiar with. That's cool. That's clever. And I haven't tried it out yet. I could see some situations. This is going to be a little challenging to set up, but I mean, obviously the general idea is that you plan at events. So you move your zinch wizard, right? On one side of the table, and then you have whatever go in on the other side, and then you can relocate. So I mean, you could probably think of a number of clever uses as I mentioned casting, unbinding, there's clever things you can do with it on that front. Oh, I really love that it's oriented around trying to set things up in advance. Your opponent can screw that up, but it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's bad. I just think it's, it's, it is sometimes difficult to use. Yeah. Yeah. You have to use it as much as a normal teleport. Right. Right. It is a little bit more fiddly in its use. That's the word I'm going for. Yes. But it's not bad. I don't want to make people think I think it's bad. I do not think that at all. I actually used it a couple of times in the game. I just played screwing around with different tricks. Okay. Which we'll talk about in a minute. Mark of Nurgle. Command ability at the start of the combat phase. Strike one. A friendly Nurgle slaves to darkness unit has to receive it after this unit fights for the first time in that phase. Roll a dice for each enemy unit within three inches of this unit on a three up that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Boy, if I didn't think the corn one was going to clear the bar of worth a command point, this one is definitely not clearing the bar because I have to, I have to choose it at the start of combat. Like what if that unit dies before they go? There's all sorts of, there's all sorts of questions this raises, right? Now hopefully that's not going to happen. Hopefully you know what happens. What if your unit kills the enemy unit and there's nobody else within three inches, like you just rolled well. Well then, like the number of situations where you wouldn't use this command ability or wouldn't risk it for the biscuit is so high. And even then it's a three up for D3 mortals. Like it should have been equivalent to contagion points maybe where they trigger at the start of the battle shock phase. Make this at the start of the battle shock phase. So if you got a command point hanging around, you got three or four enemy units coming to you. Why not? Sure. Yeah. The fact is start of the combat phase. Pretty, pretty useless. The only thing I'd note is that it is each enemy unit rather than just one like the corn one. So on the block of chaos warriors, whatever that are taking objective and your enemy throws everything into it. Again, very situational, but it's kind of cute here or there. Yeah. It's a good point. You're still Jordan. You're probably using all that defense, aren't you? That's kind of why I was thinking like it'd be nice to start the battle shock phase. But yeah, I had a turtle, a killing king and two sharks that came into main. I was like, I was thinking about, yeah, I was like, well, I'd just rather do all that defense. Or I take the best buff in the entire game, which is plus one to say on this, on this anvil unit. So you'll use it if you already have missed the shield and your opponent has no red. There you go. There you go. We figured it out. Okay. We can, we can find this corner. All right. And then finally the actual useful one. Okay. Ghost Lanesh. It's just running charge. That's it. It's just running charge. Cool. The only, the only thing that's ironic about this as the best commandability is that as we'll see, there's a whole sub faction that just more or less grants this to your army quite likely depending on your particular list build. So okay, but sure. Why not? So yeah, I mean, this gets me very excited about obviously chosen. We're going to mention a lot this year. I mean, so the average threat range of 10, let's take 10 shows and you'll see a lot 21, 22 inches. Get social dash, add one to run and charge. They have a banner that adds one to charge. And then you ought to six, right? Yeah. That's an extraordinary threat range, particularly as a counter attacking unit. You know, again, where you're playing positioning game, you're trying to be thoughtful and you can catch somebody out on the speed of a powerful unit like that, that can activate twice. Same principle, maybe a little less interesting on six Theridans. Can you do some good work with this? Yeah. I think it's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the good one. That's the bottom line. It's very much the good one. And it's very much in line with what the general mark is granting. That's one of the interesting challenges that like not all of these really align to what the mark is doing. I think there's no direct synergy there, but this one is like straight as an arrow, baby. It's like, be better at running, be better at charging, be better at, and then run and charge. It's just like, yep, this is everywhere you want to go. I want to go to there. Okay, cool. Let's talk about I the gods. I the gods is awesome now is the best thing in this book. I just mean like from a fun perspective. I'm not talking about competitively. This table is amazing. I love it. I love the expanded way you can get at it now. All right. So at the end of each phase for each enemy hero or monster, destroyed by a friendly slaves to darkness unit with the eye of the gods keyword, including those destroyed by an ability or spell, which is cool. You don't have to kill them in like melee. Anyway, if you make them dead, you get to roll. Good job, GJU. You make one roll in the eye of the gods table for that slaves to darkness unit and apply the effect of the result. In addition, everybody's favorite two words in Warhammer, if you gain control of objective previously controlled by your opponent, make one roll in the eye of the gods table for each friendly slaves to darkness unit with the eye of the gods keyword that is contesting it. So you can get into situations as Tyler recounted earlier, where you charge the enemy objective, kill a hero, take the objective and end up getting multiple roles for a particular unit, which is awesome. Okay. So that's fantastic. So good stuff. The eye of the gods table itself, as you mentioned already to your old snake eyes, turns into a spawn. You can also like basically what it actually does is the hero slain. You don't have to turn it into a spawn. So, ironically, that's a can. Like the actual rule is just the hero slain. And then if you want, you can set up a spawn, find whatever. Who cares? On a three, no effect. On a four, you heal D3 wounds. On a five, you get a two up spell ignore for the next spell you get targeted by. And then we get into the good stuff. Okay, which is for the rest of the battle plus one to charge for the rest of the battle six of ward for the rest of the battle plus one rend to all melee weapons. For the rest of the battle, they become a wizard or get to cast one additional spell. However, if you're a corn unit, you get two shots at plus one rend because that's what this becomes instead. You don't become a wizard and corn, you just get more rend. So you get two numbers that make you more rendy, which is cool. 10 is a five up word and 11 and 12. You can either choose to turn into a demon prince or pick any result off the table if you don't happen to have a demon prince model or you want to. Or if you're a lord on karkadrak and don't want to downgrade yourself into a much worse demon prince. Instead, you could just get another rend and be ready to just go kick the living crap out of people. So good times. That's the table. It's super fun. A quick note on units how they roll a unit when it rolls does not roll 2d6 like a hero. So obviously heroes push short the middle because they have a standard 2d6 chart now that can get affected by undivided where you can reroll one of the dice where it'll tilt it like this as opposed to directly over the seven. However, units roll a d6 plus two, meaning their results are somewhere between three nothing happens and eight plus one rend. Yep. Definitely excited to play around with this. Like Jordan said, there could be something really here and we haven't heard or seen a whole lot yet. So I didn't see what the community comes up with. I had a hero one game guys that was casting four spells. The first two rolls in the eye. I think he was already had two spells in cabalas. Eye of the Gods. Boom, boom. Got the nine four spells. Eat your heart out of L'Ariel. Amazing. Start rubbing it in. Yeah, I mean, this table is just called, did you want to have fun when you were playing worm or like again, I'm very much the person this table is designed for. I want to roll on this table all the time. I love this table. It is super fun. The first game I played, the last roll of the entire game was me turning a Dark Oath chieftain into a demon prince. I don't know. That's an incredible return on investment right there. I'm just saying. So great stuff. All right. Let's see. All right. If you do not choose to be a demon prince after rolling well, then you are the smelliest of spikes. Hey, look, I'm sorry. I'm not turning my Lord on Karkadrak into an inferior unit. Okay. He's too much. He is way too much better than a demon prince to ascend. He's going on the road of Archeon who has also turned down Dark Apotheosis more times and he can count. He gets one of those. That's like letters. Archeon and being offered demonhood is like getting phone calls about extending your car warranty. Okay. He gets them all the time. He's sending those directly to spam at this point. He's not interested. All right. Okay. Continuing. There are legions. We'll talk about them in a minute. Good stuff. You get two new heroic actions. A note on these heroic actions that I am going to say because I have noticed many people make this mistake, including me. Initially when I read it, I missed this too and was corrected. I noticed Paul made the mistake in his video today. It's okay. It's an easy one to make. You can only carry out these heroic actions with heroes who have the eye of the gods keyword. So even though draw on power doesn't say anywhere in there that you have to have eye of the gods in the thing like pledge to the dark gods does, you do have to have eye of the gods because that's what this area up here says. So no drawing on power with your gaunt summoner, for example, or with Archeon or whatever. Okay. Really gaunt summoner doesn't have eye of the gods. So wow. Okay. No, he's already one of nine chosen of each. That makes sense. Eight now, I guess, because one of them died, I think, permanently. I believe one of them got permanently killed. Eye of the gods. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's not that many of those dudes around. They're very special. They show up all the time in armies and stuff, but they are very unique people in the world. Okay. So pledge to the dark gods. Pick one friendly slave's darkness hero with the eye of the gods keyword until the end of that turn. Each time you're on the eye of the gods table for that hero, you can roll three dice instead of two and pick any two of the dice you roll to your score. Obviously, when combined with your undivided mark, you are ready for some hot rolls, baby. Like you are just hot roll of fun. Challenge is this is very hard to use. You need to know for like, you need to, you're blowing a heroic action on it. That is an extremely limited resource. And you kind of have to know, like, I'm definitely going to go kill that hero this turn or take that objective that my opponent controlled or something. Okay. All right. Now, draw on power is pick one friendly slave's darkness wizard again, who would have to have the eye of the gods keyword until the end of that turn when making casting rolls with that wizard, roll three dice instead of two. However, if the unmodified roll on two or more of those dice is one, the spell miscast and the suffers D six more to win instead D three. Okay, Jordan coming over to you on these heroic actions. Do you like them? Do you think they are valuable? Have you used them or have you seen them be used? Yes, I love them both. Honestly, I think touch the dark gods. Like you said is situational. You have to know you're taking an objective killing a hero or, you know, or something or your opponent has no wizards to unbind your spell or, you know, you're not to be using this one every turn, but it's amazing when you do have that ability or you can guarantee that you're going to be rolling. So that's great. And then draw on power, I think is the opposite where it's this one is great every turn. Right. In my mind, especially like they're they're great, you know, slave spells in the lower and on worse rules. And even like on a humble sorcerer lord with an arcane tone, but it's not it's not his first cast is not one cast. It's when he makes casting roles, right? So if two cast wizard, he bought them on 3d6. That's very strong and an army that doesn't, you know, didn't traditionally have a lot of, you know, spell casting buffs. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And I will say I am not afraid of that two or more dice or one thing, like at all, like, who cares? Who cares? Who cares? So a good trick with that is retinue. So you go Kabbalist and really lean into this stop. You are not a scaven player. You do not have the soul of a scaven. If this minor risk scares you, then then then like you need to get the heart of the scaven. Okay. This is a huge bonus. And on the what? Okay, Tyler, I mean, let me ask you a question. An enemy has just hit you with a d6 damage ranged attack. Way too common, right? What damage do they roll every time? Obviously a one. Obviously. So who cares? It doesn't become d3 plus three. It becomes d6. Who cares? Just roll a one or two. Whatever. Before I was rudely interrupted, by this nonsense, retinue on chaos warriors or scroll. There's no limit right now on the number of chaos lords. You can have the same chaos warrior unit either retinue for a Kabbalist. I've been running two chaos lords, one Sork Lord, have spells with arcane tome, rolling a lot of nines on the eye of the gods, six, seven spells. Feels so good. And then you're protected from blowing your head off, as I'll roll that six personally. Why not? But yeah, I feel like you're you're you need to believe in yourself more. Like who cares? That's such a such a non downside, whatever. I take much bigger risks in scaven for much less reward. And it's fine. 50% of time it works 100% of time. Okay, let's keep going. All right, command traits. All right, so these are divided into demon princes who they really, really want to be your general. Okay, like they really in this army want you to take a demon prince general a lot. And normal everybody else, which by the way demon princess can also select from the normal stuff too. So whatever. Okay, death dealer. Once for battle in the combat phase, you can fight for a second time, but you strike last eye of the god or favorite of the pantheon, you get to roll an eye of the gods after setup one time. Arch sorcerer, you know all the spells. And I dollar Lord the most what will be one of the most popular choices. This general becomes a priest. We could have stopped right there. We just got to stop right there and it would have been amazing. But we're going to keep going. In addition, you can choose to replace the undivided keyword on every undivided cultist unit in your army with one of the God marked keywords and all the cultists units get the get that and it has to match your general. So if you want all corn, let's let's just I'm a complete hypothetical total just out of the blue out of the ether idea. Let's say you're running a ton of snakey boys. Just the cultists, right? The snakey boy cultists. No reason to just I'm just I'm just this complete hypothetical. I don't know that anybody let's say you want you got like a bunch of those like probably too many, frankly. And and you want them to all get even more attacks on the charge. Sure. Then you just make them all corn. And in addition, your your your general is also a priest, which is cool. Snakey boys is splintered fang by the way. Yes. Okay, so there's those. And then demon prince is not to be denied my favorite command trait with the worst sentence structure in its not to be denied. Is this like Yoda's command trait? Like what is going on here? In each hero phase, once you've carried out a heroic action, if you did not carry out the heroic action with this general, you carry out an additional heroic action with this general. The heroic action carried out with this general cannot be the same as the other heroic action you carry out in this phase. Very good. Very, very, very, very good on a demon prince. And yet again, as this is another thing where they're like, Hey, don't you want to make the demon prince your general and get two heroic actions? Heroic action is pretty good in this army. You know, so it's okay, got it. Bolstered by chaos, add two to this general's wounds characteristic. In addition, this general becomes a monster. So if you want a monster, steam and prince, you can do so. Radiance of dark glory heals some of your other units kind of it's not worth it. And diabolic mastery, undivided only once per battle. When you carry out a heroic action with this general, you can carry out any one of the heroic actions on the war scroll, even if it is not the required keywords. No pass. If that's a thing that interests you, you should just be playing Legion of the first prince. So that's a hard swap. But the two on the left are okay. The two on the right, you ignore. All right, Jordan. Command traits. Question one, what are these do you like? Question two, are you still taking master of magic? Most times, yes, unless you you're not taking it. I don't think a demon prince is, you know, they're strong as they used to be. But if you really want to take a demon prince, then not to be nine is a really good one. If you are taking that corn demon or sort of the nerdle demon prince and you want to divert those wards, then that's great. It's going to be situational, but it's a direction that you could go visibly. Outside of that, like death dealer and eye of the gods, the favorite of the pantheon are both cute. Yeah, that's exactly the right word. Yeah. But exactly that. It's like, they're not going to be as good as you want them to be, I think, right between fighting it like the fight last or the strike last for the attack twice and yeah, right, right. Yeah, I mean, I could see death dealer on a beefed up like Lord on Kark paying some some dividends, certainly, because he's generally going to be able to stick around, you know, he's going to fight and then he'll generally be stuck around at that. He doesn't get removed usually in one pass, usually. But like I dollar Lord will be a popular choice to me and not to be denied will be a popular choice. And for the Timmy, you've got bolster by chaos, which is great. Like I'm as as a as an avowed Timmy, I have played a bolster by chaos guy will talk you actually can take a lot of these command traits as we'll see in a little while through one of the sub factions. If you really love these, you can just go ham. It's not a very good choice, but it can be done. But it can be done and yeah, so something. Monstrous actions are amazing. They are exactly. Yeah, counting as five is good, right? Like it's good stuff. Being a monster brings a lot of benefits when you're also a hero. Adding to your thought, Jordan, that was my main sense as well, not to be denied to open up more optionality in the toolbox in general with Nurgle Prince to where again, I've gotten a lot of games with Cabales. I'm not going to be shutting up about Cabales anytime soon on the show. But I so you know, looking to set up the combination of okay, not to be denied allows me to both have my cake and eat it too, because I can have the play to turn off the ward and draw on power is to power up demonic power to power up demonic speed, right to help me deliver the punch that I need against what I'm trying to take out. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you guys have said everything. Yep. Okay. Cool. Artifacts. We actually have three groups of artifacts here. So Slaves of Darkness heroes, wizard heroes, and then demon princes. The heroes, the regular, the generic any old heroes, including, by the way, wizards or demon princes could also take those. Has two, I think that are worth at least talking about for a moment, which is Helm of the Oppressor, no inspiring presence, no rally within six inches. And the Conqueror's Crown enemy models with a wound characteristic of one or two within six inches of the bearer cannot contest objectives. Do you like either of these, Jordan? I like them, but again, they're just, I think, too situational for regular use. You know, I think the team tournament format has become a little more popular, which is amazing. And I think if you're playing in that kind of a space, these get a lot more interesting, where you're trying to play into certain matchups. But I think if you're, you know, for, we're always comparing it to the Arcane Tome, right? To take up an artifact slot for something that you're going to use in a third to half of your games, if you're, you know, at best, it's hard to justify. Yeah. Yep. My problem with the Helm is it's too short range. If it was 12 inches or something, I'd be like, yeah, okay, this is way more interesting. But frankly, you've got a better way to shut off those two things in this book through taking a unit and not one of your precious artifacts slots that that unit also plays double duty and does other interesting things. And the Conqueror's Crown, the issue is there's just not a lot of one and two one models running around. I was going to say, post bounty hunters world, they could get a level or training, but yeah. Right. Yep. All of the escalation veterans are sort of an endangered species right now, still for the next month or so, probably. I guess Lord on demonic mount, not going to do a lot of damage, but he's pretty efficient at 170 in terms of his cost. Give him this, you know, he can go off on a solo mission and really cause some problems for your opponent in a post bounty hunter world, where there's going to be more one to two one models on the table. So yeah, it's probably not right now, particularly when in sorts of banners are so attractive, especially if you're not in host of the ever chosen already. So it's just the slots fill up a lot. Yeah. Tyler, you've been playing Cabalus as you've, I think you mentioned that so I'm just going to let you tackle the wizard thing. Are any of these, would you take any of these over arcane tome in your Cabalus army or any of these doing anything for you? I do think that the wizard, the spellbomb matchups could be challenging. I haven't yet played against Teclis or Zeench, right? So it is interesting to look at infernal puppet, screw with Teclis to screw with Kairos. Is that even doing enough? Maybe not. You don't really have a reliable way to get to them in the first place with this army. You can do some range damage through spell through endless spells, but the most part you may lay so long and short of it probably not. Yeah, you're probably just putting some wounds on that they'll then just heroic recover or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now the demon prince is I think do have two artifacts worth discussing and one that's been FAQed and is still bad. So the helm of many eyes, if you really, really want the strike first effect back on your demon prince all the time and don't want to rely on the heroic action, fine, perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with it, like strike first is strong, especially because it's not relying on the charge or anything, you're just your ASF, which is good. And then the doombringer blade, which I actually don't hate at all. At the start of the first battle round after setup is complete, but before the first turn begins, you can pick an enemy hero or enemy monster on the battlefield if you do so, add one to wound rolls for attacks made with melee weapons by friendly units that target that unit. Interesting point of that is that it counters the Nurgle mark. So in a mirror match, their their their big hero will actually be wounded normal. And I mean plus one to wound for your entire army against some piece you're trying to kill. It's not a bad it's not a bad artifact. Like it's there are oftentimes a single thing that you very much would like to see destroyed. And putting plus one to wound for your entire army on that thing is not bad. Pretty good, dude. I didn't really thought about that one until right now that you pointed out. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, counters the Nurgle mark in the mirror. So it's fine. It's worth noting that seems to be persistent beyond the Demon Prince's life. Yeah, it just it just is like once you put that on there, it's just that's it. It doesn't like they don't have to be present for that buff to occur. So the Demon Prince gets picked off who cares they've done their thing. So yeah, basically they get your curse them and they just that's it. That's their life now. By the way, cool piece of art down here. It's kind of like if they kind of faded it out to this high opacity, but this is like a cool looking Demon Prince. So just a neat thing. I always want these artists work really hard on this stuff. And I don't think people ever really take note of it. They just kind of read over it. But I notice you cool artists who's working hard. I want you to know that. Okay, one more artifact. No, we don't. So hey, I've got a I think it's kind of interesting. Again, it's edge case. Oh boy. All right. Yeah, I'll take 10 minutes to go through this. Okay, well, the thought is it's like Ghostmiss, right? Ghostmiss can potentially help keep a unit alive from shooting shootings, the thing in this game, Vince Ventrilla. It is blasters, long strikes, 15 bow snakes, double tapping. Sure. You can control drops. You could set up potentially I mean, it's edge case. Have to have terrain on the table cooperate to put enough terrain on your tables, please. Like Jordan does. I've seen his tables. You could get some value out of this, I think it does. Yeah, it's in your hero phase. So I hope you were winning the drop war there. It's for battle in your hero phase. Yeah, exactly. You have to win the drop war. And I couldn't know. But notice, Tyler, your list was nine drops. So tell me again where this is going to where this is going to be applying. I've got one drop on Saturday, but yeah, fair enough. Cool. Moving on. It's bad. Okay, the lore of the damned. I mean, my quick read of this from the lore of the damned is two things rather than going spell by spell. My read of this is three of these spells are good. One is situational and one is like exists. Okay. And the they are all short range. Like this is a 12 inch range lore period. They're all like that. And so, you know, you need to be very aware of that when you are looking at your spells and like this is the thing that's still holding you together into smaller bubbles. It's actually why I don't love the spellcasting in this army, despite the fact I really do like the spells. This army very much has an independent operator feel in a lot of how it can work. And these stupid spells want me to stay real tight for me to be able to use them in the ways I want, unless I'm just like self buffing, which is fine. Like because sometimes you will be, by the way, of course. So that's my only issue with it. Jordan, what's your what's your take on the lore? What are your spells? What's your like, if you're if you were to gonna like rank these, you don't have to do the whole thing if you don't want, but what's your what's your kind of how you looking at these? Oh, as mentioned, I'm a huge cavalry junkie. So demonic speed obviously jumps out huge. Yep. I agree that the range is limited. But I think with that kind of spell, you're only going to cast it once or twice. And to send it off, you know, to break up your castle and send, you know, XYZ unit out one time and then it gets to its target and it's good. I'm not too worried with the spell range there. And then finding damnation, obviously amazing, giving something strike last. And the chaotic conduit is fun for the I have the gods one. So I think those are the three that you kind of probably alluded to as well. You nailed it exactly. Yeah, exactly. Tyler. Yeah, we're missing it a little bit, but chaotic conduit great for a battle tactic, again, especially a certain sub faction that gets 3d6 to cast, which master magic, you're going to be reallowing that most matchups, you should get that optically. If you're high drop, you're given first turn a lot like I've been, and I just put my dudes out of unbind range free battle tactic. So yeah, a whole lot more to say. Yeah, it is. Like the whole small bubbles doesn't lean into the counterpunching style with this. Yeah. And if you've got multiple casters and cabalas, you can spread the love around, you know, double up on demonic speed so you can have a little bit more coverage in your range of the holy within 12s. But yeah, it's it is a little unfortunate. I get why these are pretty good spells. They are. Yeah, notably, by the way, we've hinted around it, but I really want to put a fine pin on this demonic speed gives you a 3d6 charge, you know, being able to declare from 18 inches away, all the good things. But it is limited to slaves to darkness units that have a mount. Yeah, very easy to forget. Fortunately, there are a lot of good mounted things you would want to give that to in this army. So it's not that big of a restriction, but you know, you can't use this. You can't use demonic speed to make your chaos warriors or your chosen go shooting off. If you want that, you've got to go to the war shrine and may mark them Slenetion and pray about it. Okay. The banners, we already talked about all the banners with one exception. There is one untyped banner. Again, these can be given to chosen warriors or knights. And the untyped banner is the blasphemous icon, which is while this models in the battlefield subtract one from chanting roles for prayers chanted by priests that do not have the chaos keyword. I would love this banner so much. And it would be my like strong second pick. If it just said chanted by priests by enemy priests. But because it says priests that do not have the chaos keyword, many of the priests in the game, I would want to be causing penalties to have the chaos keyword. Sure. Turns out there's a lot of dark priests roaming around the world. You know, now look, it's not all of them. There's certainly some that are that are that aren't chaos, obvi, you know, fire slayer priests suck it, I guess. For the seven people who play those. So really three free role on the relic door instead of the two free role. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Take that relic door. But you know, it's like the fact that it has chaos says that's not the that's not the one I'm picking. I like I end up to me then if you're going to take two banners, it ends up being like the eroding icon and the screaming flesh or something like that. I've been in a lot of intense shows in with better screaming flesh coming in hot 21 22 inch range, 41 attacks, potentially fighting twice at just phenomenal. And yeah. Yeah, they like the cars, the cars that go boom. Yeah, it'll it'll make it'll make things disappear. Okay. Let's talk about the legions. Okay. Host of the ever chosen has been FAQed as part of the day one FAQ. And it is actually your chaos chosen nights and warriors. So the same list as who can take the banners effectively rally on a five up. In addition, you do get to pick one additional in source of banner enhancement for your army. So you get two banners straight away. Okay, cool. Let's let's do this. We're going to give each of these a letter grade. We're going to have each one a letter grade not compared to each other. Okay, we're just going to give them a letter grade on their own how'd they do. So Jordan, where are you giving this? This is getting an A, B, C, D, and A for sure. A for sure. Hard A. All right, Tyler, where are you at? Hey, yeah, solid with the change. Yeah, five plus is fine. This army, as we've said, has a CP challenge. If you're using CP on rally, you're getting hurt elsewhere. Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm going to give it a B plus. It's trying real hard. I like it. It's good. But you are a melee army and rally is harder to use in a melee army than it is in a shooting army. That's the only thing that knocks it down. Just a few little points. B plus is still very good. Very viable. I think you see it. Okay. Legion of the first prince. At the start of your hero phase, you can pick one Legion of the first prince undivided unit and then pick one of the following marks of chaos keywords, corn, zinch, nergal, or slanish. That unit has that mark of chaos until the start of your next hero phase in addition to the undivided mark of chaos. So in this case, you actually get both unlike the I dollar Lord where you were hard swapping. Here you still count as having both. Okay. And then note, if you pick a wizard unit to have the zinch mark of chaos, it knows the warp reality spell until the start of your next hero phase. Okay, cool. Fair enough. All good. Infernal servants, allied bloodletters, horrors of zinch, plaguebearers, and daemonettes. Units benefit from the mark of chaos battle trait as if they had the slaves of darkness keyword. So they get to be like, your bloodletters are plus one attack on the charge and your daemonettes are plus one to run in charge and it doesn't matter because they're all bad right now. So who cares? Like infernal servants is just if some lorem texts at this moment because like even like plaguebearers are good in their own army, they're bad without their five up, disgustingly resilient. Horrors are not great in the age of bounty hunters and so that becomes extremely problematic and bloodletters and daemonettes are bad. So I don't know what else to say there. All right, Jordan, what's your letter grade on this slash any other thing you think about it? What do you think about Legion and then what's your letter grade? I think this is interesting. There's a lot of depth with the the marks in that being able to kind of add marks. I think this is something like you really have to have a plan going into it with the units that you have and all that. You're planning this out for mist building because it's not something you're just going to be you know swapping on the fly. You're joining with a strategy with the units you pick. Isn't it a good or bad thing? I think it's just a little you know more complicated, definitely more complicated. So from like a simplicity I don't think you know perspective we're not going to see this one as much as the others. So maybe like a B minus C plus not because of strength more because of functionality, I would say. Yeah, talent that a B I think the infernal servants box it down entire letter. I'm very intrigued again from a Johnny angle. I haven't thought enough about this one yet and what are some of the combo synergies this building looks like etc. But I the community is going to figure out some cool things with legion of the first prince. I mean there's some fairly obvious combos that can do you know mention one the basic like five chaos nights example take a hammer unit that you want to go in and then get them out of dodge through zinch for example. But it I love the adaptability of this. Is it enough to have it be one unit? I'm not sure. May not be quite enough. Anyway, I'm definitely intrigued by this one and I think it'll see some play. But yeah, it's not gonna be as popular as some of the other straightforward ones. Sure. So I actually played legion on Saturday. I took the whole legion of the first prince kit exactly what you would expect the army to be. So old bellicorps at the head it turned us back in him up like the whole the whole shooting match. And I went because I was going against Archeon. So I was like, well, we got to have this show down that makes that just makes sense. And the that but it was ravagers Archeon by the way, which we'll get to in just a moment. And I will say originally I was pretty down on this because you can only pick one legion of the first prince undivided unit and then use those marks. It was crazy the versatility that actually gave me in the game. I was beyond impressed by my ability to just like tilt into different marks to do what I needed to do with that specific moment. So I agree with you, Jordan, in general, you'll probably have a plan. But at the same time, like I needed it was late in the game. I had basically no units left. It didn't go well. I'll just say this, but I managed to give a good game. It took until round five for him to be me. Okay. And even then I would have won had a turn is come back. I'm going to state that I didn't roll the aid up and it turns didn't come back and I lost. But anyways, I had a demon prince up here in the corner. And there was a unit over here with like one wound. Like imagine my screen is the table, right? Is it the hell of a distance, right? And I the only the only battle tactic I had left I could reasonably achieve was this one's mine and the demon prince is my general. So I tilted slanish. Okay. Now I'm plus one to run in charge and can run in charges command ability. I had nothing else to do with all my command points. So she ran six, hence ran seven. So she goes 19 inches across the board, right? And then charges 11 inches more and catches that unit. Okay. And kills that unit to complete this one's mine from just like downtown, right? And I like the ability to tilt into the mark did that. And there were other times throughout the game, every round, I was like, Oh, cool. If I tilt this mark, I can do this thing. I can remove like the nergal mark. You know, like, Oh, I need to get rid of these word saves at this moment, the ability to just tilt into the nergal mark on your demon prince and then use the heroic action. Right. Suddenly you're just like, Okay, that word save thing isn't a problem anymore. Right. Mm hmm. Getting excited about leaking. Yeah. And I think we're only on two sub factions, but already I think it's like vastly different play styles between these sub factions like like Legion and how even from that, how techy it can be that I think just this book is such a hit. Final flash. You are correct. It wouldn't matter. I way over charged the person, but like I got way past them with the edge wasn't necessarily you're right. I messed that up. Thank you. Uh, at any rate, uh, so yeah, I like, I just found it so interesting and like actually tilting into the zinch mark to just like warp reality when I needed to. That was when I was using warp reality. Right. It was like, Oh, this, this, this person who's, who is carrying around a book, right, is just going to tilt the zinch. And suddenly it's just like, pull somebody over and reposition them. Right. But I didn't, it wasn't like hard committed to that thing. Okay. So yeah. Interesting. Okay. Uh, Cabalists. Uh, all right. This one's crazy. Here we go. Cabalist heroes become wizards. Cain tones for everybody. We could have just stopped there. You get an arcane tone. Now arcane tone is the best artifact. As we've said, wizard is one of the most powerful things you can grant to anybody in the game. Cause just be by becoming a wizard, you get the most powerful spell in the game, mystic shield. So let's just make everybody wizards. And if the hero is already a wizard, they can attempt to cast one additional spell and know one additional spell from the lore. In addition, if you carry out the draw on power, heroic action with a Cabalist hero, you can immediately carry out the same heroic action with each other Cabalist hero within three inches, which won't happen a lot after sort of the first turn, or unless you're kind of really moving in this little castle with maybe two people or something like that. But like, you're not going to have it really chaining big after the first turn, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Okay. So fine. Uh, can a newly, sorry, I've answered already. Can the newly made wizard choose a spell? Yes, they're a wizard. Okay. So let's flip into two different questions here. Like, if you're asking me on Legion of the First Prince, where you could tilt your demon prince into, into zinch, then use the zinch heroic action and suddenly become a wizard in your own hero phase? Yes, you would then get to pick a spell because they, that's how it works when you suddenly have access to a thing, you do get to, to choose the thing. Now, if you mean in this, you're a wizard at list buildings. So yes, you, you get to pick the spells like your cast lord would get to pick a spell like normal. Um, so yeah. Okay. Cool. Um, Brawny says this needs a, uh, an FAQ. Can the new wizards actually cast spells? I mean, I think we all understand the intent here is they become wizards. Hence they can cast spells. I don't, I mean like, sure, we can put in the FAQ, but they weren't just doing it for their health. They're not just gaining the keyword, right? So, okay. Tyler, did you, uh, did you, did you play Cabalists? You want to talk about this one? I've got a few thoughts. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. Let me finally discuss this. I've been waiting. So, oh my God, this, it's so amazing, right? Yeah. Like the last game, it was in the presence of idols. Just all right, look cool. Let's just put 20 chaos warriors on the line, march up, hang out in the middle, put three heroes, cast lord, cast lord, both retinue to the 20 chaos warriors. Hard to shift them. Six ones each. We have bodyguards and the cast sword lord. Now we did snipe the cast sword lord immediately pretty much. I mean, took, took him two turns, right? But that's the right thing to kill because you don't have the bodyguard protection in their events. So your heroes can die. So it's, it's a bad thing. The, but three wizards alone. I mean, or you could just play better. It's fine. Sure. Yeah. Just, just, uh, yeah. Three wizards alone, six spells. Um, I mean, there's so many amazing endless spells off, endless spell options with this. You gotta have the right combinations, right? Like you want to have them undivided to protect you from chaotic conduit. We already discussed that you gotta have kind of the right combinations to mitigate disaster because you're not a stupid scaven player. But the endless spell options are phenomenal with, with this. I mean, soul screen bridge. That is amazing with 10 chaos chosen or whatever that can help with mobility that, that threat, right? Um, they're insulin ash. Now there are seven charge coming out of soul screen bridge with incredible range, uh, all, you know, endless spell anyway, just so many different combinations that you can lean into. I'm not going hard into it. I think you can just go a little bit. You're not taking six heroes to make them all wizards, right? You're taking like, it's like old school kabalach. You take like three. Yes. And you could go hard with like a bunch of mutileth vortex beasts, let's say, and three endless, like jaws and burning head and maybe dark fire demon rift. And you're trying to have all three of them out. So you're getting the bonuses on dark fire demon rift, three mortal wounds, plus each endless spell on the battlefield, uh, giving you an additional mortal wounds for everyone that attacks in a two up. But you could have some notably strong range, mortal wound damage, kabalas list if you really want to lean into it. But yeah, anyway, I'm in love with this faction. Yeah, just a real quick answer, the confusion around the FAQ here. The core rules state that when you become a wizard, a wizard can cast spells. However, it then goes on to say the number of spells that a wizard knows is on their worst goal. Obviously on the worst goal, it doesn't, or sorry, not knows that can cast. I apologize. The number of spells a wizard can cast is stated on their worst goal. Obviously it doesn't state anything. So how many can they cast? We assume one, because tripping into a wizard would seem to make you a single cast wizard, right? Now it also then goes on to say all wizards know the arcane bolt and mystic shield spell. So you would automatically know those because you're becoming a wizard in list building. You also, of course, would then have access to choose because the wizard gets to choose a spell as part of the universal enhancements, you would have access to choose that. So the hang up here has to do with like the second sentence or whatever in section 19.0, because their worst goal itself does not have a specific reference to the number of spells they can cast. Can they cast any spells? I totally understand the FAQ it's worth just getting a clarification on, but I mean that the the intent of this is beyond obvious. Okay, like they didn't make them wizards and let them choose spells and all of that to then not do anything with it. Obviously. Okay, like just obviously that's how GW writes spells. I know I'm like the GW whisperer over here, because I tend to know what intent they have and generally pretty correct on the FAQs, but like obviously you don't need any kind of clairvoyant powers to know what they were going for. So but sure I'm sure it'll be FAQ to clarify it. Okay, Jordan anything else to say on Cabalus? No, Tyler's the expert. I think he covered everything. I'm the fanatic, I don't know about an expert. Jordan, try out realm scourge, rupture, and Jaws. That's a lot of fun, because the realm scourge rupture halves movement, right? And then Jaws benefits as well, and the slaves love slowing the enemy down. And yeah, I mean, it just it's the range damage that you can do without going crazy in your point investment that I love about Cabalus, right? Because that I mean, you want to be able to try to chip damage Marathi or pick off little heroes or whatever the case might be. And it just adds that tool to the toolbox for the army. So covering such a weakness in the army or such a gap in the army of having ranged ranged output at all, let alone mortals, you know, is a great add. Yep. And yeah, Berserk, I do assume that's true that we'll have to wait for like, the actual book release and then some number of weeks after that. So okay. Or you can be like me and think Cabalus is dumb because magic is dumb. So your choice. All right, let's talk about well, that's, that's okay. Magic's okay in Skaven. I don't like magic unless I've got like plus a million to cast. That's why I like plus four to cast Tyler. That's what I that's what I go for. So 3d6 is still too random. I need the solid, I need the solid bonus. Okay. Dispoilers, the least coherent. Oh, we didn't rank Cabalus. It's an A. Does anybody not give him maybe a plus? A plus plus. Yeah. Jordan? I'd say a minus. Maybe that's just different play styles. No, I get you. Also because spell doms exist. That makes it like that pushes it down out of A plus range. Sorry, Tyler. How dare you? Play Teclis and then we'll see if you're still in the A plus range on those guys. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Dispoilers, the least coherent of all of these. So Dispoilers classically was the demon prince sub faction. That's what it was all about. Everything was like buffing demon princes and monsters. And it's still doing that, but it didn't actually work out that way. So let's talk about it. First, add two to the wounds characteristic of friendly Dispoilers monster units. Okay. So the logical next question you should ask is, are there any good monsters in this book? And the answer is, yeah, sort of. Okay. So like, kind of the actual monster monsters. The people who might be hero monsters. Yeah, this is okay. Now you could also turn your demon prince into a monster through the command trait, in which case they will then go to 14 wounds because they go from 10 to 12 from the command trait and then 14 from this, which is cool. So if you want the full like knock off bellicor generic demon prince, you can, which is great. You should note, I will note here very quickly, by the way, remember Archeon and bellicor themselves, though they are both monsters will not benefit from this because they are both Legion locked into their own legions. So uh, in addition, each Dispoiler demon prince can be given a command trait in addition to your general, which can be used as if they were a general. Each command trait must be different. Now, how good that is relies completely on how good demon princes are because if demon princes are bad, then the ability to take a bunch of demon princes with command traits, then it's not good, right? If it's if demon princes are good, then this ability is amazing. I will, we will save it in for a moment as to what that shakes out to. We'll get to them in just a quick sec. But one thing I will say is that there is a weird perverse incentive here. Okay, let's imagine you build your Dispoiler's army with three demon princes and any other number of heroes. Okay. You are highly incentivized to not make the demon prince the general. Because let's let's just let's sketch a simple situation. There are three demon princes and a Lord on Karkadrak. Okay. If I make one of the demon princes the general, then he gets a command trait and so do the other two. Right? And the Lord on Karkadrak gets nothing. If I make the Lord on Karkadrak the general, all three demon princes still get command traits. So to get the maximum number of command traits, you actually don't make a demon prince the general in the demon prince is the general for sub faction. Oops. Oops. Oops. So the first time I ran this, I ran, I did run a Dispoiler's list. And then when I ran this, I made an exalted champion of chaos, the best boy, my general, and then just had demon princes everywhere. And I was like, this is, I'm all about it. This dude right here is in charge. This little idiot. He's my guy. This is my dog right here. Okay. Dispoilers to me, I'll like again, it relies on the, it relies completely on the power of the individual units, like that is to say on monster types and demon princes. And my answer is this one gets a B. It's like a solid B, maybe a B minus, but it's fun. Jordan, where are you living with these guys? Yeah, I would even say it's C plus B minus 10 in that realm. Again, like you said, demon princes aren't, I don't think they're going to carry you. So is it worth investing more into them? Probably not. Probably not. Spoiler. No. Yeah. And all depends on, hey, there's definitely some fun and flavorful things in there. No doubt. But this was very fun to play. I will say that. But yes, like this is not where the power is. That is for sure. Tyler. C minus trending potentially deep D plus. Wow. I guess. Yeah, my, as we've established this year, claim to be any sort of Timmy players is once again showing. Apparently I'm, I don't know much Timmy and me. This, yeah, I don't, I don't really see this one. It feels incoherent, as you said, and it, and demon princes are very rough right now. They're rough. Yeah. We'll get there, but they're rough. Okay. Ravagers. So this is our cultist one for those who remember. Ravagers get yet another heroic action. You thought we were done. We're not done. We're done when I say we're done with heroic actions. Okay. So rally the tribes. Pick one chaos marauders, chaos marauder horsemen, cultist or dark oath unit in your army that has been destroyed. If you do so, a new replacement unit with half the number of models in the unit that was destroyed rounding up is added to your army. Set that unit holy up within 12 inches of this hero carrying out the rogue action and more than nine inches from all enemy units. Each destroyed unit can only replace be replaced once replaced units themselves cannot be replaced. This also needs an FAQ because at the moment they are not move blocked. I assume they will be as with all things that are like this, but at the moment you can reset them up and then go run walk away later on. I assume that will be fixed in the FAQ. This is very potent. If you are running a cultist heavy army, this is crazy what it allows you to do. It effectively gives you 50% more cultists for free. It is no joke. Because you're not just doing this in your turn. This can be the enemy turn heroic action. It's strong, strong. Jordan, are you living on ravagers? It's amazing. Definitely a standout in combination with some of the other, you know, specific units and abilities that we did into. But there are some very strong cultist units. There are some very strong, you know, units that buff those cultist units. And I think, like you said, just recycling units for heroic action is amazing. And noteworthy that the command trade to, you know, for sleight of darkness or yeah, demon prince to do another heroic action fits really well in this one. Is it enough to take a demon prince just for that? Maybe, maybe not. But if you really want this and the three sips cast in a list, it makes it all possible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ironically, demon princes actually work way better in ravagers, cabalists and legion of the first prince than they do into spoilers. Because in Legion, they can tilt to get the, to review the toolbox heroic actions. In cabalists, they just become a wizard, which is better than any command trade on the list. And in this, they give you the, if you can double dip for the heroic action. So you can be doing this and other things as well. So, yep. Okay. Cool. Good stuff. Uh, knights, knights, knights, knights, knights. That is a reference to a cartoon show that five people other than myself have watched. And it's because I have showed them the cartoon on DVD. At any rate, Knights of the Empty Throne. Knights of the Empty Throne units that have a mount can run and still charge in the same turn. What? Uh, what are you doing? Just, just everybody, everybody with a mount. Heroes, units, just, just everybody's run in charge now. Okay. Well, again, we could have stopped there, but we don't. Uh, when you pick the general for your army, if Archeon is not included in the army, you can pick a model in a friendly Varengard unit to be your general. A model, not the Varengard unit. You have to say like this guy, this guy right here, if you do so, that unit gains the leader battlefield role. In addition, if that general issues the rally command and a friendly Varengard unit receives it, you can return one slain model to that unit for each five up instead of six. Designers note this general cannot be given a command trait as it is not a hero. Uh, so it would not carry an artifact here because it's not a hero. Um, I don't know why they just didn't say both, but yeah, both follow from that logically. Um, yeah, Jordan, what's your take on Knights? I own 12 Varengard. So I love it so far. Um, it's not that again, Calvary's my jam. So this is instantly the one I gravitated towards. Um, run in charge in combination, um, with the other buffs in this army for 3d, six charge for mountain stuff, you know, pluses to run in charge. Like there's a number of marks that really lend themselves to what this army wants to do. It's a pretty, it's like, I love this one. It's a, it's a more straightforward build process, but that's not a bad thing. Like everything works well to the other good synergies that are fairly straightforward. So I think this one's a huge hit. Agreed. Solid A all the way from me, Tyler. Yeah. Yeah. Similar thoughts to you guys. Not much more to add. Yep. It's excellent. It's pretty great. I'm going to be curious to see how it does competitively. But again, I think the principles we talked about at the beginning will generally still hold to keep things like this in check. But I can't recall in the game seven year history of an entire, of a sub faction having run in charge or like a class, like basically an entire army potentially. OBR, Steliak Lords. Oh, okay. Okay. The very popular. The very popular Steliak Lords. Yeah. Yeah. Can I point out the units to benefit from it quite as well? Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, pretty amazing. Also Tristan, you are, as always, you're amazing because yes, Tristan knows the cartoon I'm talking about. So that's amazing. At any rate, okay. Let's talk about my least favorite part of all of this. The thing that I pretend doesn't exist. I have used officially zero of these. I'm not going to lie. I don't even read this section because I'm not going to use them. So, but there we go. Tyler, talk about grand strategies and battle tactics. You're a cheater. I've lost this battle. I've given up. Yeah. Okay. So dominating presence when the battle ends, you complete this grand strat. If there's at least one friendly slaves darkness unit, wholly within each arch quarter of the battlefield. So this could synergize well with ravagers, which we discussed, right? Getting lots of units back. That could play well with dominating presence. Follow the path to glory when the battle ends, complete this grand strategy role. The dark Apotheos result on the eye of the gods table. One or more times during the battle. So can you get one of your heroes? 11 or 12. Yeah. Can you manufacture a demon prince? Yeah. Yes, exactly. Some lists can do that probably with decent reliability. It's not the best. It's not the worst. Run to the realms when the battle ends, please grant strat if you completed at least four battle tactics. And every battle tactic you completed was from the glory of chaos list below. So the in book battle tactics play a pass. They've been doing this a fair amount. Not a, I mean, I don't know. It's more, it's not a competitive choice. Masters of dark ritual. When the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy. If there are any slaves to darkness, key worded in the spells on the battlefield that you set up. Probably too random. Probably not reliable enough. You've got three options. Maybe you can get away with it, but you're probably not taking that. I like dominating presence out of that one. Jordan, you got any thoughts on those grand strats? Yeah. In a specific situation, the follow the path to glory is interesting. But I think the only reason you even consider any of these is that there's no generic one that's an automatic or great. Grand strats. Yeah, that's kind of curious to get your guys thoughts on that. I've been having that debate right in my head as well. Like, which was the right one to go with? And I've been trying out whatever it's called, where you have your belly vet units in the center of the battlefield, and it's going to count as being in all four quarters, right? 20 chaos, 20, yeah. So that one's kind of interesting, potentially, whatever that one's called. So yeah, battle tactics. Got one, two, three, four, five, six. Some of these are very doable, in my opinion. I think two in particular you're going to see all the time. First one, enter through all the chaos, pick one object marked on the battlefield within 12 of any enemy units. Complete the battle tactic. If there are no enemy units within 12 of that objective at the end of this turn. One could get played, you know, a fair amount. Lest for power, pick one friendly slaves of darkness hero that has the eye of the gods keyword. You complete this battle tactic. If you roll on the eye of the gods table, that hero during this turn. Oh, yeah, that one could be pretty easy in some context. Like chaos conduit on the 3d6 says gain two, two victory points this turn. Exactly, yeah, 100%. Yeah. And yeah, you can generally plan for that one even without relying on Kabbalahs, et cetera. Just you could potentially set it up where you take control of an objective without a lot of difficulty. So yeah, you'll see that all the time. Arch of Ruin, pick one friendly slaves of darkness unit that includes a standard bearer with an insorcel banner as not within enemy territory. It's kind of a weird one. Complete this battle tactic. If at the end of this turn that unit is wholly within enemy territory and within three inches of any other friendly units at one situation in the six games are like, oh, cool, I can actually do this. But I don't know. You could maybe try to plan it. It's weird. It's wordy. The iconoclass pick one enemy unit that is a priest or totem. Complete this battle tactic that unit destroyed at the end of this turn. The totems nowadays. Yeah, there's a lot of totems around, sure. Excuse me. Could you please identify all the totems in your army? No reason. Okay. So champions of chaos. Complete this battle tactic. If at the end of your turn there are three or more friendly heroes within three inches of enemy heroes. Three or more friendly heroes within three inches of enemy heroes. How weird. I doubt it. Sure. Not going to happen that often. Finally, run them down another one that you're going to see all the time. Complete this battle tactic. End of your turn. Three or more friendly slaves of darkness units made a charge move in that turn. Obviously, ABC is the name of the game with this army. I've been doing a lot of catacomb to the turn one and run them down turn two, which then leaves against the odds, barge through enemy lines, to create their lands. You don't even have to get into killing these tactics, right? With two easy ones all a sequel out of the books. Yep. There they are, folks. We did it. Okay, cool. Core battalions. Yep. All right, here they are. I have now put them on screen. Great. Next. Okay, let's get into the war scrolls. That's what I think about the core battalions. These at least events follow the principle we've discussed many times of problem isn't one drop. The problem isn't unified. Right. One drop hits battle reg. Correct. Battle regimen is the problem, not unified. Yeah. These are kind of interesting because chaos warband is one hero, not two heroes, and four troops. So like you're not probably fitting your entire army. I guess you potentially could. You could just take one hero. You could take Archon or whatever. Well, it actually can't take Archon. Slave of darkness leader. I guess you could take. Yeah. Anyhow, yeah, it's better than just battle reg. No, it's if those core ones didn't exist, then I'd look at these. But the problem is they do. So here we are. Okay. I'm not the one who made the decision to make those. Sure. All right, let's talk war scrolls. Okay. Archon, the ever-chosen. Grand Marshal of the Apocalypse. Lord of the all points. The eight points, whatever. And pretty good dancer. I've heard. He's got some, he can get out there. He can do a little Charleston shuffle and stuff. He's good. Okay. Big upgrades for this guy. Big ups. 25 wounds. Still with the 14 inch move. Double caster. War master. Fly. His mount is still Dorgar. His attacks are, I believe, improved. Although I'll be honest, I didn't look at the old scroll and remember exactly what his all his old stuff was. I think he had a little bit of buff to his attacks. Yeah, they're a little bit better. Like the monster's claws went from random damage to just flat five, right? That they used to be random damage. I believe they were D6 damage. And now they're just flat five, which is like so much better. So that's cool. His armor of more cars much improved as he now just has a ward of five up. Instead of a ward only against mortal wounds. So amazing. He still bounces back on a roll of six. He has by my will, which can be used on any friendly chaos unit until the end of that phase if they're slain they fight. So he has a death frenzy, command ability, which is good. I would note that it is at the start of the combat phase. So it is going to that unit can't all out attack, all out defense, any of the other things we talked about earlier. And a unit can be roared out of being able to receive this, which is cool. The crown of domination, enemy units cannot receive the rally and inspiring presence commands while they're within 12 inches of this unit. With Mr. 160 millimeter base, that is a heck of a bubble around him on the table. He is projecting of no rally and no inspiring presence. Four up spell ignore the eye of Ed Sheeran is still here, but now it's his little I get to decide priority thing. Once per battle. He does this now. It's not a secret anymore. Basically, just once per battle, the start of your hero phase, you say you're going to do it, you roll the dice and you know, we got to do a little staring match when I did Archeon versus Bellicor until I threw Bellicor away basically and just got him killed because I'm a moron. Because it would be the start of his hero phase. So he has to make the decision to use this before I make the decision to Bellicor him. Right. And so it put him in a place where he wouldn't use this because if he knew he was going to like tick into the double, then instantly Archeon was getting locked out. Oh, never sent. Right. Right. So it just created this real interesting like sort of timing shuffle that I ended up throwing into the trash because I'm a moron. But hey, first time playing against Snakey Boys didn't realize what they were capable of. It's a lot. So that's how that works now. It's just one to three. Your opponent takes the priority four to six. Sorry, first turn. Not priority first turn. Four to six you do. Favored Warlord. You can pick one of the following marks of chaos and he gains that in addition to undivided. So everybody will just mark him Nurgle. That will just happen basically every time so that he's neg one to be wounded and gets even more ridiculously tough. The Slayer of Kings still does Slayer of Kings stuff, which is put people in the bin when you roll a double six to wound. And now the heads are all monstrous rampages that do specific things. Yada yada, the Nurgle one does some mortal wounds. The corn one can kill a dude and then heal you and the zinch head eats endless spells. He has 860 points faction locked to the host of the ever chosen. Okay. Gentlemen, Jordan, coming to you first again. Archeon, is he worth 860 points? Is this the glow up this guy needed? Are we going to see him around? I think you'll see him. I think he's great. One of the things people talked about is there's no longer the potential for the double pile in with Archeon. Just there's no chaos Lord babysitters for him anymore, which I think is good. But he's amazing. Like you said, super tanky. He could be very resilient, hard to avoid. Everyone was, or a lot of people were taking the un-misspelled to turn off rallying and inspiring presence. Now he just does that automatically. I'm sorry, if we're on mass too. So so many positives. I think we'll like very strong in Nurgle. I think we'll also see corn because it does help with, you know, it's another potential five damage attack going through. Another chance of the Slayer Kings. Exactly. So I think those are two, probably the standouts for the last part. But I think he's great in probably the highlight in conjunction with maybe looking at the sub faction where you bring about half your cultists, where they're also fighting on death now for commandability. Yep. That's exactly what I faced, by the way. It was Archeon Ravagers with a ton of Snake Boys and it was Red Donk. Because yeah, they would just fight on death and it'd be like, oh good, this is happening now. Yeah, potentially fighting, fighting on death and then coming back half the unit on your opponent's turn and doing the same thing. Yep. This sounds all very familiar to me. It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Tyler? I agree with Jordan. I think he'll see quite a bit of play. Generally, he strikes me as not. I can't believe I'm saying this. Archeon has struggled over the years, right? He's either too good or he's not good enough. Had a hard time finding a sweet spot with him. I like to say I think they've done it. Because the main thing that stands out to me is that we're still in the safe stacking reality. Guy's not rocking minus three rent and he doesn't have a way of getting minus three rent outside of like running Purple Sun and taking the risk of him getting hit with it. So yeah, I think he'll see quite a bit of play. I actually think the Nergal Head is really good. Wanted to be a unit within six this unit. Roll a number of dice equal a number of models in that unit. It's a maximum of seven for each three plus. I got hit, I got like 13 mortal wounds, six and seven. Back to back combat phases on two different units of stone gardens. Like what the hell? It was nuts on top of his damage. So that, yeah. The corn you can pick out an enemy model. So pick out the insorcel banner, chaos warrior unit, right? Or chosen units or whatever the case might be. A lot of situations like that. That's really advantageous. I think he's probably going to be okay in terms of balance, external balance. You know, I tend to agree. I think this is like the first 860 point hero I've seen where I'm like, yep, that's 860 points. And it feels like about 860 points. Like, that feels correct. Like, don't get me wrong. I think he's probably going to be okay in terms of balance, external balance. You know, I tend to agree. I think this is like the first 860 point hero I've seen that feels correct. Like, don't get me wrong. This dude is tough. Like, he is hard as a coffin nail. He is a challenge to remove. It can be done, okay? But like, it is not easy. You got to hit him with a mecha hammer to knock him down. Yeah. The existence of this war scroll is the best reason for considering a normal demon prince. A demon prince in general in your army. Yeah, because if you're not cutting through ward saves, there are effectively 37 wounds on an easily neg one to be wounded. Yeah. That's no joke. So, okay. Ah, the demon prince. We had to come to him eventually. And here we are. Let's talk about this guy. Cool as new model. Uh... Okay. 8 inch move, 10 wounds, 3 up save, 10 bravery. Of course, because he's a demon. You can have either wings or the trophy rack. I think the trophy rack is worse, although there is a very specific build where it has an extremely high value. But for the most part, it is just bad. Wings give you a fly of 12 instead of a move of 8. So, cool. And also, they look like super good. So, there's that too. Uh... If you take the trophy rack instead, then units holy within 9 are immune to battle shock. And in addition, each time an enemy hero or monster is destroyed, by this unit, you increase the range of that ability by 3. So, okay, whatever. He has a ward of 6 up. If you take the sword, which you shouldn't, you get to do D3 mortals on a hit roll of 6. And you have this list of heroic actions that you can use. The problem with this is that the problem with the heroic action is it really is unless you're taking this guy in some way where you can get easy access to not be denied, it is really hard to spare the heroic action for this demon prince. Like, really hard. Uh... And... Because you have too many other heroic actions you're trying to do. Now, when you look at his melee profile at first, you're like, man, that is a great melee profile. Look at all those attacks. Look at all that cool stuff he does. Nope. He gets to pick one of those. He doesn't even have the weapon and the talons like he used to have. Nope, it's just one. Just one. And so, the axe is the mathematically correct choice because of the rend 2 damage too. Even with the mortal wounds like I went through and calked out all of them and the sword ends up almost the exact same damage but slightly lower the rend when it just ends up paying more dividends in more cases. So this is a 10 wound hero which is the worst thing you can be in the game. Okay. Like, 10 wounds is the worst number of wounds to have. Because he now counts as the big commander in all the the battalions. Can't get cover. Can't get lookouts, sir. And on and on and it can't get blocked by a wildwood so on and so forth. But it's not a monster. So it doesn't have like 10 wounds but you're a monster so you get the monster consolation prize. Still just counts as two models. Mostly you can make him a monster through a commensary. No, you do not get the talents in addition to the the weapon. You do not. The and it is its role is melee assassin. And melee assassin is the worst thing a hero can be. Because melee assassins just aren't why people pick heroes. melee assassins are generally bad. Unless they're like big monsters who deal crap tons of damage. And this guy's average damage just so we are all clear is 3.6 against a 4 up save with the axe. I just want to be super clear on that. When I say the damage isn't good against a 4 up save this guy averages 3.6 damage. Now that's not real because obviously you can't actually do 0.6 damage but I'm giving you the mathematical average. Okay. So if you if you charge with the slanesh mark on it goes to 4.6 because the extra attack. Hmm. Yay. Look out. Sad. So it's a melee assassin that doesn't do much damage isn't very tough and doesn't benefit from nearly anything. Yes you can stack command traits on here to do some interesting stuff. Yes I've run demon princes a lot because I keep trying to shove it in because I like my favorite unit but you know at 195 it's it's it's rough. It's rough. Alright Jordan did I miss anything on this guy? No I think the his best the best case for him is in ravagers where you want to be doing two heroic actions and most of the time you're not actually using the old the demon prince one. Yeah but maybe the nerdo one will come up bait in a couple matchups so it's an extra bonus. Yep I think the ravagers list is where he actually makes the most sense because then you're going to trophy rack him and just kind of burrow him in the middle of as many cultists as you can get within nine inches to keep all your cultists battle shock immune right. That or the legion of the first prince so you can as I said earlier like tilt for the toolbox because the only actual role this guy seems to have is for the nergal mark to get rid of ward saves to unstick that problem if you're running that toolbox like that's it. Yeah I mean you could give him that crown to turn off one win two win but again I mean that particularly relevant potentially in a future world as opposed to right now because yeah 12 inch move right he could go up and do that solo mission and and help you on let's tactics or objective you know hold more potentially you know still an objective free opponent they didn't expect that get some scoring separation but yeah I took this guy out of my list I come to end this debate right 195 points is obviously a lot for this kind of profile and every game all six games oh sorry I played four of the six games first four games I had him and he didn't do anything other than cast spells right he just stood behind you were making him a wizard which is not normally yeah yeah so at least I got that benefit from him but like I can't send him off to do something because it's not worth losing the spell cast and he's probably not going to do enough anyway he doesn't do enough output to reliably like even kill chaff so he's not a good solo operator as you said a melee assassin or a chaff killer whatever generally speaking maybe you could tool him up a little bit more but does adding malefic talons as additional profile does that fix him it would do something it would at least let him handle low armor targets and be frightening to them right like at least then there would be like some kind of offensive role that you'd go like yeah okay like he can go handle that low armor unit right but the problem is with only five attacks on like threes and threes it's just it's you very often won't get there not all out attacking on this guy you're all out attacking on chosen or something your chaos knights or whatever yeah yeah it's really unfortunate yes because I mean they clearly wanted us to play this dude maybe multiple ones as you said it's such an extraordinary model but it's one of the biggest misses in the book I would say yeah I agree yeah I agree and I just I don't get it I don't get how we looked at this profile and its capabilities like did no one run the math on the average damage like you know five seconds after I read this guy and I was like what is this if anybody post some comments let us know if we're missing anything with this guy I'd love to hear some ideas on how he's saying in terms of the value add but yeah I mean to me his only role is like I said either in cabalists to act as a battle shock immune thing that can't be turned off right because like other people can't turn off his trophy rack so you know you don't have to worry about inspiring presence getting shut off and that eases your command ability burden right or in like legion where he can toolbox into nervel and just be like oh hey I'm fighting an enemy nergal army fortunately I brought my nergal demon prince who makes it so the rest of my army absolutely blows through nergal like it's nothing right and suddenly like mr. splithorn helm guy on his bug and the rest of his little bug writer friends are all just dead instantly to your chaos nights without their ward saves right and like because now they're on like even all out there on a five up save and that's it to you know and he's fast enough then to just kind of keep up with them and do the combo charge thinking about it if he had that crown I'm forgetting which one it's called there's two crowns they love their hats in this book that yeah and that example you gave of having that massive relocation range in that game yeah I mean having that on that I mean that could be very clutch in the game to be able to slain ash at the right moment and lesion the first prince on run six plus one etc etc right back back that gets interesting but yeah it's kind of these edge cases you're trying to figure out combos to to make him worthwhile it's it doesn't yeah yeah he's just underwhelming I like I know I'm really beating this up I like I wrote a much longer rant about this guy but I I shelved it because it was just too long and I didn't want to spend that much time on it but it makes me sad because my favorite model to be clear not counting the new one which I will build and still paint I have like I have five demon princes okay like when I say this is one of my favorite models of all time like I love demon princes like I have them from all different ranges and stuff like that built to all different gods you know I just think they're like the coolest concept and like that because of the whole apotheosis thing all that's just like neat right just neat and by the way they also don't have eye of the gods so they can't level up in any way they've already reached max level apparently this is what peak performance looks like right so it's like but all your other heroes who have eye of the gods will get chances to just level in the game and just suddenly gain plus one rend and when that happens it's such a huge deal right and this guy's just he cannot get that he will never get that so yep okay got it so underwhelming is the name of the game ironically the worst in his own sub faction but interesting in ravagers I should say this way has at least a point to exist in ravagers and legion okay cool Varengard Jordan you're taking these guys do it go tell us about Varengard I think overall they got a great blow up more consistent profile you know they used to have plus one damage on the charge it's now just plus one on their characteristic one up by one so they're more reliable um and honestly I think they did a great job with this in the profiles like I think each weapon has some value and when I first looked they were pretty like bath hammer wise they panned out pretty quite similarly which is always great so you know great great unit still right Varengard were good before they're still good they're better with all the peripheral stuff around legions ability sub factions all that these guys have gone better if anything can't take an artifact on them but that's that was kind of janky to begin with sure in a bubble Jordan what are you running fell spear and source of blade or demon forged no no no no no Tyler that's not how they work that's not how they work you don't have to do that each model that's true that's true yeah so if you take a six pack you can have like the front three guys with the one inch weapons or something and then the back three guys with the fell spear you build like three with fell spear so they can sit behind in a comfortable way and fight over the top may have to change my point I didn't I didn't test that actually that's a great point yes these guys are real interesting because of that unlike almost every other unit in the game it specifically says models in the unit can each be armed with a different weapon option which to me is like so cool and so versatile for these dudes because yeah you can just roll up Tokyo drift the front rank sideways and have the fell spear guys right behind lock stock ready to rock they're all attacking no janky puppy paw print formation easy money that's amazing actually because the fell spears are great so to answer your question before Vince's comment I would have said I have you know my list one of the lists I'm running I have six fell spear or unit six fell spears and I have two three packs within source of weapons you know good general way my big unit that's my hammer is gonna I'm gonna set up to make sure they get the charge so they're gonna be getting those buffs and they're gonna run through stuff and the three packs are you know I'm sending them off of their own their mic more likely to get hit first so that that weapons better in that case but having a six pack that's good at both like yeah like Vince that's a great great shout out so thank you for that that's long nugget absolutely yeah I love like the front three with demon forge blades so they're like the mortal wound crackers and the back ones who go to rend three with the fell spears it's like a it's such an amazing combination right like do you like curnoff swords and sides why not just to put both into one unit that's what I'm here for so I'm assuming I've never read I'm running six for the first time and I haven't actually checked the base size but I'm assuming that's based on what you're saying that the bases are small enough tokyo drift on the side that too yeah they're 90 by they're 92 by 52 so as long as you don't put the guy against the widest point you can reach over the top because all you have to like if you slide two millimeters to the left then it's two inches to the target okay I was going to check that I just hadn't checked it yet it was very interesting they're on the big can they're on the big cavalry base basically just just to make a case for the fell spears too I know a lot of people love their social weapons primarily but one thing this army lax is a lot of high rent right so the fell spears going to rent three on the charge is is our you know the books best you know access to high rent yep oh yeah sorry Aaron's right they're on the normal cavalry base what I'm thinking yeah they're on the 75 by 42's not even the bigger one so yeah you can you can reach over the top easily thank you Aaron I totally I was thinking of the Lord on Karko I think is on the bigger one that's it yeah it's great great point Jordan there are best can opener on their starting profile so yeah potentially getting them to even minus four and undivided would be would be lovely they have a built in four up ward against mortal wounds now which is brilliant was one of their defining weaknesses previously so yeah yep so great save rallying on five ups yeah looks like they're priced about right yeah 90 for three yeah I've seen these guys I haven't run them yet but the first game I played we actually did is a team game so and I had another slaves darkness partner I was running SUD and my partner ran Knights the Empty Throne and had a heavy Varengard list and man these guys just impressed living heck out of me like they were they were doing great so just good work all around yeah okay yeah Varengard awesome Bellicor the dark master 355 locked to Legion the first prince other than that he's still Bellicor he does Bellicor things he hasn't really changed he still does what Bellicor does he has his little his little stop it thing the difference is he actually has two other profiles besides his main weapon so good on him I guess you know he's the problem with Bellicor is that he is uh he's fragile that's it that's that's the thing he's on a four up ethereal so we can't get better than four up and he has no word save and so there you go like he'll just die very easily as I learned can be a wet noodle as well yeah and this is one of the worst goals events we talk a little bit about this Jordan very curious your thoughts and Bellicor view I think you played him a little bit but I find his worst goal quite frustrating right so we're paying 355 mostly for Bellicor's ability in my mind which of course I kind of get why that ability is priced pretty high because there are a lot of matchups there have been a lot of matchups over the last however long people have been running Bellicor where you get value out of particularly if you can set up the right conditions where you're like getting it for three turns in a row right or at least two turns you're locking Archion down in whatever case Archair is eye down beyond that yeah he's fragile and he doesn't hit as hard as he should is it like he needs to be 14 for 20 for 30 and actually hit meaningfully or be a little more tanky have a five up board built in seems something is off to me with this guy if I was to make any change like if you know have the power to make any change I would it would be the resiliency to me I think his damage is good enough for what you want him to do which is you know killing screens killing chat units you know stuff that's off on its own putting him in favorable positions not as you know just an ultimate hammer but it's like you know he's the demon prince you know I wish he had if anything like award save would be great but I think a three up ethereal like a therian it's you know not it's not busted you know mortal wounds still tear him apart yep but like 5050 it's like that's what it's worth like a therial it's honestly worse for him to have it'd be better if he wasn't a therial with a four up right because then you can stack saves on him at least but the ethereal like four up just feels yeah punishing was that we had an artifact back in early malign sorcery days a three up I came in what it's called and it was fine you'd see that on like a spirit of derthu but it just made you a therial and people would made you a therial yeah exactly yeah and it was I mean I ran it a little bit a lot of us ran it it was fine yeah usually you'd run it on something that was susceptible mortal wounds and that was how you killed them but yeah the problem is when it got paired with something that had mortal wound protection as well whereas again this guy doesn't I saw Caleb in the chat earlier he touched me with his um gloating on zombie dried it or terrorized back in the day with you know yeah ethereal five up six up it's brutal ethereal that's what it's called yeah so yeah I mean to me he's like he's cool he's a tech piece um like I said he's he is potent when you use his ability strongly but after that he kind of has to be used very carefully because things will make him be deaded which is problematic okay but he's not bad like he has a perfectly decent war scroll spell he is still a double caster like he's not bad I don't want to I'm not trying to undercut the guy I just agree with you he's like he is a tech piece he's not just a he's not Archeon right like narratively you lose sorry buddy if this is the rules you bring to the table you can slow Archeon down for a minute and then he's coming for you and you're going to get deaded real fast mm-hmm okay speaking of but that's okay don't worry Bellicor isn't alone he brought a new friend with him an Eternus blade of the first prince ten inch move nine wounds the best number of wounds three up save nine bravery his mount Dracocephalus that's great is that a take off of that has to be a knock off on alexander the greats mount right because alexander the greats mount was Bicephalus think about that yeah at any rate he's got a good horse everything and unlike the demon prince this guy does get all of his weapon profiles so that's nice he's armed with all of that stuff mm-hmm he has strike first if he charged just like the lord on Karkadrak because it's very much the analogy for him he is faction locked to Legion of the first prince at the start of the hero phase if he's within one inch of any friendly chaos legionnaires or friendly furies or furies but furies mainly he gains it you gain an additional command point Uh, by the way, it's definitely Fury's. I didn't mention it, but Legion of the First Prince also unlocks Fury battle line. Oh yeah. And Fury's a great battle line, actually, and you can just have a little unit sitting around him, and I found this was actually amazing for Command Point Engine. They would just kind of float around him and chat for him, and then, like, eventually, you know, things would charge them, and then I would just leave. Because who's going to pick that activation first? Uh, so, you know, just saying. Uh, so, ah, there you go. Sean says Alexander named it Becephalus, meaning Ox Head. So then what they are going for here is Dragon Head, I assume, because he does have, like, a dragon-y head. So, okay, cool. And then Veins of Black Lightning, at the end of your movement phase, if this unit has been slain, roll 2d6 and add one to the roll if Bellicor is in your army and on the battlefield. On an 8+, you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9 inches from all enemy units, with all wounds allocated to it removed. Super fun. I got this guy killed in round 3. He came back in round 4. He died again. Something charged him and killed him instantly. We'll talk about what that was in a little while later, and then I failed my roll in round 5, sadly. Like I said, he would have won me the game. Did you roll a 7, and because you got Bellicor killed? No, I rolled a 6. Okay, thank God. He does have some decent damage because he gets the Death Glaive, his 5 attacks, 3, 3's neg 2, 2. The Skull Flail, 6 attacks, 3, 3's neg 1, 1. And his little fangs are 3, 4, 3, neg 1, 1. It's fine. It's not great, but it's fine. He's fine enough for a little mounted hero. Problem with him? No word save. So, he will die. He very much will die. And he doesn't do the, my other problem is, he doesn't have any ability to pull other people into combat, like the regular Lord on Karkatrak does. Nor has he benefited from Eye of the Gods, because he's again already at sort of the end of his journey. Yeah, I mean, Jordan, what's your thought on Eternus, Blade of the First Prince? I think he looks really fun. Just the tech of coming back and even in Legion, being able to pop different marks on him, and the opportunities that opens up. I think there are some fun things that should be done. Hits well. I like him. I'm definitely going to grab a beautiful Model 2. Definitely going to grab and run him in Legion at some point. Helps with the CPE. I think all around he's good. And there's no glaring weaknesses. Besides, Mortal Wounds, obviously. Yeah, he's not an obvious optimal piece to play, I don't think, right? But he's a, you could run him. And I think be pretty happy with him. We've got a part of an overall game plan, Legion of the First Prince especially. Yeah, he has a bit of cross purposes with this network of spies and getting him killed. Like you may want to run him in, slanesh, run in charge, get him in there, start being annoying on a side, but then you're not getting your command. So, a bit of cross purposes. One thing about the network of spies that is interesting at the start of the hero phase, so you get it twice, right? Yeah, both turns around. And in an army that is starved for CP generation, that's... That's what I'm saying. He was a CP machine, man. Yeah. I would probably use him that way, rounds one, two, three, and then maybe... I don't know how much I would look to use him as that at like early distraction, carnifex, type-piece. Sure. Maybe leaning into the CP generation. 235, he can punch decently, particularly corn if he's charging, etc. So, I like him. I think he's priced pretty well. And yeah, he's interesting. Yeah, to me, he's like... I would take him before I take Bellicor in Legion, is my honest answer. I just think he's actually really good. When he tilts marks, it's really versatile what he can do. So, yeah. Okay. The Gaunt Summoner. It's a Gaunt Summoner on disc. It's basically the guy from Xeens. We talked about it a little while back. He has the same abilities. He does get all the spells from the Lore of the Damned, which is cool. He knows all the spells and still has plus one to cast, still a double caster. You're going to take the disc one, not the foot one. Like, there's no reason you wouldn't pay the 30 points. They're 30 points difference. He still has a little Lore of the Silver Towers, which will never do anything, but it's funny. He has a slightly different Silver Portal for, like, no apparent reason. So, the Xeens one can put two units into the Silver Tower. They have to have the Xeens keyword and can't be a monster. Okay. This guy, it's just any other unit you set up, but there's no limit on it. So, after you have deployed this unit, when you would set up another friendly Xeens unit that is not a monster, you can say that it is in the Gaunt Summoner Silver Tower as a reserve unit. At the end of any of your movement phases, you can set up one or more of these units on the battlefield wholly within nine inches of this unit and more than nine inches from all enemy models. Okay. So, if you want to, if you want to be completely insane, and you can put your entire army into the Summoner and hope they have no shooting attacks, well, you would know, because you can do it as you're setting up. If they have no shooting attacks, you can just put your entire army into the Summoner, float him forward 16 inches, and then pop your entire army out. Just like... I'll just unfold them out. You can also stick other Summoners in him, so, which is funny. Yeah, good point. Yeah, odd that they didn't put the two unit limit like in Xeens. Right. Like, it's a silly plan. It's not good, but it is funny. So, yeah. If you only have the model from Silver Tower that's on foot, make a disc. It's not hard. Take a coin, put teeth on the side, done. Like... It's easy. Get a Toonie from up in Canada. Put some little teeth on the side. Disc. Easy. Done. Perfect. Okay. Nailed it. So, yeah. This guy, he's just too expensive, I think, on average, to vulnerable facts. You pointed out earlier events that he does not get Eye of the Gods, which I now understand why. That's frustrating. Cabales is now taking off the table with him. I could, again, see some play with my very thoughtful remarks about Ghostmist and that lovely artifact you have great disdain for. That can make something a Wild Woods. If you're a low drop, you might have some play there. Yeah, in general, probably not. So, I tried a crazy thing in my second game. I took six Theradons, who had a Zeenschmark, as we all know the best mark for Theradons. Okay. And I stuck them all in the portal because I wasn't fighting any enemy shooting. In the second, they have built-in plus one to charge. And I was like, I can re-roll. I can re-get an eight on two chances at it. Why not? Silly, absolutely. So then this dude blows forward into the enemy side, right? It's just like 22 inches jumps himself across, right? Dumps all the O-Groids nine inches away from the back line. Rerollable eight can't get there. So they're just stuck there. Which was not the best test. But it was funny. It was funny. So like, you know, there's goofy things you can do with them, but yeah, it is what it is. Great plan, poor execution. And many times, you're just better off with a bridge. Correct. Yeah, Sean, we mentioned that earlier. This guy cannot use the draw on power. He cannot roll three dice. He does not have the eye of the gods keyword. And the text above both of those heroic actions says you have to have that. Jordan, do you see playing this guy at all and Slaze of Darkness? Nope. And a tournament list? Yeah, I don't. He's too expensive. Yeah, it's a lot. He's so much. Too fragile for that point price. His most enticing quality, though, is knowing the whole spell lower. Yep. Plus one and plus one is great. Two cast wizard, but it's just. Do you know what honestly would make me like him more if his spell had a range of 18 inches? Sure. The fact that his little infernal flame spell is only 12 inches. That he has to get so close to the enemies to use his stupid on swirl spell. It's really annoying because it's very offensive and he is very fragile, right? So that's small difference. Again, I don't want to harp on this, but I do often think like Ghostmess can be undervalued and underplayed for situations like this. When you can control drops, reliably cast key spell, turn off line of sight and protect something like this. But even with that situation, I still the hard time seeing this guy because he's not leveraging Kovalist. You really want him in Kovalist with, yeah, with like Master Magic, three spell cast, whatever it would be. But yeah. Yep. Okay. Then the Gaunt Summoner on foot who's just like objectively worse for no reason. So fine. And only 30 points cheaper. Cast Lord on Demonic Mount. Your bargain basement Lord on Carcadrack. He loses some of the offensive power. Eight wounds, 10 inch move, three up save, nine bravery. But importantly, still has the five up against mortals. Still has the more damage with the lance if you give him the lance. So he says like the night charge. And still has the strike first effect when he charges. And importantly, on his strike first pulls either a unit of Cas Knights chariots or Gorby's chariot into the, to be able to fight immediately. So Cas Knights, because it's not going to be the other two, and pulls them into the ASF part of the turn, which is what's amazing. Just to maximize activations. Like it is very easy, depending on how you're constructed in this army, to have like three or four activations in the combat phase before your enemy gets to go once. And I know we discussed that, but just to say it, my understanding and I think yours, the way that it's worded, means that you could get three activations before your opponent goes. You get him, you get the chaos knights, let's say, and then you get your normal activation. Correct. Awesome. Exactly right. He started the bargain basement Lord on Carc. I'm sorry, go ahead, George. I was just going to say two of those pairs, five activations, not that it's obviously overkill, too much of a good thing, but... Or is it? I know, exactly. It's, it's enticing. Yeah. He's not bad. Like at 170, I think he's perfectly reasonable. He's a perfectly fine hero. Like I have no, no issue with him whatsoever. I like him with the, with a fancy hat. And, but to me, that's, it's predicated on what's the new GHB gonna look like in terms of, yeah, a bargain basement guy with a fancy hat to be a utility piece. It depends on the point you have left. This is an expensive army. If I don't have 220 left, but I need this role, like if I can't get the Lord on Carc, I'm happy to take his bargain basement twin and be, as my last thing, I'd be happy with it. Like, it's cool. He's going to do most of what I'm asking the other guy to do anyways. Okay. Chaos Lord on Manticore. This guy's interesting. I am so back and forth on this guy. So by the way, this is the good monster. Just in case you're interested into spoilers, you should have one of these guys in your list. This is like the potentially good monster. You know, he's a 12 inch move with 12 wounds, four up save. He goes to a real estate, but actually, actually he has a three up save because you're always going to give him the rune shield. So he's five up against mortal wounds and a three up base save. So fine. He does the whole like extra, his monster does extra damage against other monsters. Fine. He can do some extra mortal wounds in addition. Fine. But really his thing is he's a monster with 12 wounds or 14 into spoilers. That doesn't have a damage chart. He's just, there's no damage chart here. He just is what it is. It is what it says on the tin. He actually has Ren 2 now, which is like, which is appreciated, I suppose, on his sort of main attack, though he doesn't get many attacks with them. And when he issues redeploy, he can, you can re-roll the die that determines the distance. I was wondering when we were going to really see this start happening. I think it's the most obvious way to play in that design space of letting you re-roll the redeploy die. We haven't really seen it as much as I expected, but this guy does it. So he's interesting. And again, he does have eye of the gods and all that, so he can level up and like get random and things like that. That's cool. At 270, I don't hate him. I don't hate him. Jordan, where are you living on this guy? I'd say I don't hate him is the best description. It's like, he's solid. No, you know, it has some uses. He's not by any means like something you're like, Oh yeah, I have to have him at my army when you're building. But he's not solid utility. And the redeploy is big. I think like you mentioned, people kind of sleep on that, but in a pure combat army when you're like, you live and die by choosing the engagements. Yep. That's the redeploy can be so big, you know that. Totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he's like a six. Like a six, maybe maybe six and a half. Like I can see him in lists. I've been thinking about him in Legion of the First Prince for all the reasons that we've been discussing, right? Versatility, adaptability. You could arcane tone potentially with this dude, give him flaming weapon. Do that now against monsters. He's doing four damage. Right. You can do flaming weapon on the mount attack profile. Yeah, you can. Yeah. So I mean, this guy is great for taking. I have the God's buffs. Sure. Get some additional rend on this dude. He starts to get really interesting, right? Yeah. If he hits the rend up once, he's suddenly a way more interesting guy. I will say you can build him. Like I was kind of joking with the defensive build, which would be the standard way, but you can choose to build like the suicide Lord on Manticore, which is you take the lance in addition, and then you, you know, corn mark him or something. So he's just like all the attacks and you just, you just pray you get the eight on the eye of the God's table and then go smash something. Like it is. It is a strat. I think he's priced well, particularly 12 wounds, three up save hero, 270 points. Like, yeah, that's that's good price with some of these other things rocking form. He's intriguing. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Chaos Sork Lord. He is like, if you. Okay, he's interesting. He doesn't have the iron will overlord thing, but what he does have is an 18 inch range spell. That's pretty decent, like pretty darn decent actually, because you roll a number of dice equal to the number of models in that unit for each five. It's one mortal wound for each six. It's two mortal wounds. That is not bad. If we end up shifting away like and see more, more large units here, like we, you know, gets are probably on the horizon. Gets are probably on the horizon. If that new book is any, he's literally, there's like gets in the picture. Right. So like, if that becomes a thing, if you start to see more larger units, like that spell is pretty good. Yeah. Highly rare to see an 18 inch on that kind of spell. So yeah, pretty sweet. Yeah. And he's 265. I mean, he's still a roar. You know, he's still a monster. It's all that kind of stuff. He still has no chart. So I think with the source, it's worth mentioning just a regular visions, you know, trended down largely from last book. No longer plus one to save. Now it's a six up ward. Great change for balance and, you know, the health of the game. But just something to be aware of. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. A great point. Yes. A regular visions. Everybody's favorite auto buff that used to go on for the plus one to save is now just a six up ward. Again, now that's bad. It's fine. It's a perfectly good thing. It's just like, it's, it's not plus one to save. So, okay. But yeah, like to me, this guy lives and dies by, is this spell worth it? And this spell is worth it if the meta has more big units. The more big units we see, the more I'm looking at this guy real hard. I've been thinking about including him in the list because the range and the efficacy. And even in just a little extra bonus, like obviously if you have the points, upgrading your Chaos Lord on foot, you have a way more reliable, tanky piece comparatively that's going to survive a couple of rounds of shooting. If you really are dependent on those, your two, three spells, all those buffs that we talked about, that were 12 inch range or some of the spells that were 12 inch range, he can get, keep up with the units a lot better. He can close the distance better behind your screens. So I think they're, he's not good utility, but again, just not a, doesn't instantly jump out as like, okay, I have to take him. Yep, agreed. Which is good. Like I think there's a lot of things in this book that are like that where it's like, how you fit the pieces together is really going to determine a lot of how you're, what your goals are and what your list is capable of and so on. Yeah. Chaos Lord on Karkadrak, maybe my favorite war scroll in the book, nine inch move, nine wounds, three up save, nine bravery, good damage capabilities, lost his self heal, which I'm sad about, still does the mortal wounds in addition on his blade, still does the impact hit mortal wounds, still has a five up save against mortals himself and he has the strike first effect when he charges and he much like the little guy pulls chaos knights into the always strike first phase to attack with him, you know, has eye of the gods, take a mark obviously at 220. This dude is just maximum value. He is like lock stock ready to rock. He does many things. So it's good. He's just good. Yeah, I'm a fan. Yeah, played a few, if you guys with him, death dealer fighting twice, kind of interesting. But yeah, trying to roll in the eye of the gods table, get him up to increasing that rent on multiple profiles that's really make him scary. Yeah, I've enjoyed him. And the strike first just makes him the perfect thing for clearing screens. Yeah, you know, it activates even if it's like, you know, cast nights or whatever, then activating is amazing, but even just for verandar or something else, you know, just letting him clear the screen first, then you pile in your chosen, right? Like, Hey, fine. Yep, because they're still going forward three inches, the thing that is there, they're just going to step forward and then fight the thing that was behind. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're talking about like a two inch reach that the guys behind might, or that the other guys might have, they can, they can reach deep. Yeah, 100%. Okay. Chaos Lord on foot, five inch move, six wounds, nine bravery, three up save. Again, has like his little weapons. He can, like you're going to take that reaper blade and steal. So that's fine. The still has the mortal wounds. This is the retinue ability before you allocate a wound or mortal wound to this unit instead of making a word roll for a wound or mortal wound that would be allocated to this unit. If this unit is within three inches of its retinue, you can roll a dice on one to two with that wound or mortal wound is allocated to this unit as normal on three plus it's allocated to that unit's retinue instead. So, yep. And he as well pulls units into fight. The trick is he doesn't have ASF, but he does do that. He still pulls units in. So he's still jumping the activation line, which is what's interesting about it. And he can pull any unit in. They just have to be holy within 12 of him. And so he's cool. Yeah. Then you're running a couple of these guys, right? Yeah, yeah. Like my early sense of list building, staying within the army of iron and rune theme, which I'm most attracted to doing for a 2023 army, is putting most of the points in the units and then going light on heroes. And I just have found two chaos lords, perfect because you can keep them alive. Again, retinue can stack retinue right now, the way that it's worded. You could have five chaos lords, all retinue to 20 chaos lords if you wanted to for some reason. As far as does that seem right to you guys? The way that it's worded. At the moment, it is how it works, yes. Yeah, we'll see. But yeah, no, they're awesome. At least, again, for what I've been using them, getting a lot of value because they're safe, they are better protected from nonsense happening. Yeah, that is correct. Infinite Sorrows. It is his retinue. He pulls it. I'm sorry, you're correct. Yeah, to fight next. Thank you. It's retinue, yeah. Yeah, it's his retinue. He pulls it in the fight. But yeah, he's good. At 115, he's actually one of the cheaper hero choices. He's relatively tough. Like, cool? Cool dude. Chaos Sorklord. So, 120 points single caster. It is what it is. He has Arachnid of Visions for the Six Up Ward and Demonic Power is you get to pick one friendly mortal, slaves to darkness unit, wholly within range and visible to the caster. Add one to hit moon rolls for attacks made with melee weapons by that unit until the start of your next phase. I mean, still an incredible buff, cast on a six. Very good spell. I hate that they had to put the word mortal in there, just to shove it in like the Demon Prince's eye. Not that that would be the correct choice for it anyways, but like, why could it just be a slave to darkness unit? We had to like, just take that. But that's fine. So, yeah, cool. 120. Jordan, how you feel about the sorcerer lords? Is this guy making the cut? Just a good old fashioned sword lord? He's great at holding an arcane tome, so. Yep. Yeah, just passed my book. He's a, he's everybody's favorite librarian. Yes, he just, Mr. Books. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's a good book carrier. Doesn't benefit much from, from I in any like tangible way, really. But by having it, obviously, it lets him access the draw on power. So. And the amount of power is, as you mentioned earlier, Vince, I mean, it's a rare Holuthan-18 as opposed to a 12. And add one to hit moon rolls does enormous work with this battle tone. Hugely powerful buff. So I, I'll always, I mean, he does right now, at least in the current reality, he has the challenge of potentially getting sniped, because there's surely no way around that unless, again, goes missed, et cetera, that I've been making the case for. Very powerfully and passionately on the show. But, yeah, he, good, pick him. Yeah, he's a, he's a, he is a solid caster. He has the standard problem that those kinds of guys have, right? Which is, he is, he is snipable, but that's reasonable. For 120 points. Yeah, sure. Of course. That's fine. Agreed. The best boy, my favorite boy, in the whole book, this is, this is my dog right here. The exalted hero of chaos, champion of champions. Five inch moves, six wounds, four up, save, eight bravery. But don't believe the hype. I don't believe that. That's not true. He has two different weapon choices. Either you can take the good one or the bad one. The good one is the four attacks on threes, threes, neg one, two. The bad one is the eight attacks. On force, force, neg one, two. And that is because if you give him the first one, he has a rune shield, which gives him a save characteristic of three up and a five up against mortals. Fantastic. By the way, the average damage on both of those two attack profiles is nearly equivalent. It's about point one difference. You would think doubling the attacks would have more of an effect on the damage, but it turns out going from threes and threes to fours and fours is cataclysmic to your damage. Turns out fours and fours sucks. Who knew? So this guy, after deployment, you can roll once on the Eye of the Gods table for this unit. That is one of the most fun rolls you're going to make in the whole game, because you're just like, come on, Demon Prince. Here we go. Like this guy shows up. He gets marked undivided, so he gets to re-roll one of the die. And you're just like, can I upgrade this guy right away? Can I just get a free 95 points in my list? Let's see what happens. And he gets plus one attack if he's near enemy heroes or monsters. I made this guy my general in my Dispoiler's Army to give him a command trait. The command trait I gave him as a joke, since everybody had a command trait, like every hero I had had a command trait, was the one where he gets to roll at the start of the game on the Eye of the Gods table. So I was rolling twice at the start of the game, wherein he got a five up ward period and plus one rend. So I was like, this dude's ready to go. Let's go get it, man. And just shot that little, little lunatic forward. He went out and he did some good work for me. So he's just fun. Like this is such a Timmy slot machine guy, right? So if you just like goofy plays, like he's just fun. There's no like, there's no real quality here to be super clear, despite my discussion of him. But like honesty. Yeah. I mean, like it's not a good competitive choice, but on the fun quotient, this guy is a, is a 10 out of 10, right? Like it's just wacky, hilarious fun. So there you go. Or just model. Beautiful model. He has a beautiful model. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. The, if you give a prince the roll on the table, can they then do so? Oh, like, no, because you, they don't fulfill the thing. You have to have eye of the gods to take that command rate. It is fun detected. Yes, indeed. Okay. Oh, Groyd Mirmadon. He's bad. Scroll over. You need some synergies with Theridans. Yeah. And he opens up Theridans as battle line. Needs a little more synergy with Theridans. Yep. Like, is that Tyler Jordan? Do you want to defend this guy? Nope. I don't think so, dudes. I mean, I didn't look that close at him, but that just doesn't pass the sniff test. No, he's, he's, he's real bad. He's real bad. Yep. I, it's shame. It's just a shame. This is actually the only thing keeping the demon prince off of the power to quality of model disparity. The only thing keeping the demon prince from being the winner is this guy who is one of the greatest models they've ever made. And this is just a absolute tragedy of a scroll. Like this is straight terrible. Yeah. It, it, it breaks one of the principles they've gotten better at over the years, right, which is war scrolls like this, giving some utility. Yeah. He doesn't do it. He's pure melee assassin, and he's very bad at that job. His attack profile is not even the equivalent of like a normal Stormcast Lord. And missing, missing an attack. Totally off the wall, but it honestly just also just kills me inside that like the bottle has one spear, but he throws it and then still fights with it in combat. There's, there's more spears. You just can't see them. They're like hidden right off screen off his base. It's funny. Okay. O'Groid Theradons on the other hand, these guys I think do have some potential play. At five wounds, five up save base, six inch move, six bravery. They get plus one to charge built in from their musician, which is great. They get plus one to bravery. So they're bravery seven, which is solid because like it's good bravery. It means that like if you only lose one dude, which can happen a lot, you don't have to actually take any chances of running. And the main champion has plus one attack. They get, you can also build, you can either build them with the big falchion for three attacks, three threes, neg two, three, or sorry, the great axe, I apologize for three threes, neg two, three, or the one-handed weapon for threes, threes, neg one, two. If you build them with the one-handed weapons, then they also get the shield and their save characteristic comes four up. That is the path of cowards. You build them with the two-handed weapons because they are here to, they're here for one purpose and it's to go do work, son. And so they also get plus one to wound. If any wounds were or more wounds are allocated to them earlier. So if they happen to have to fight second, they actually get better. And then you can also unleash savagery once per battle. And if you do so, you get one to the attacks characteristic of these units, melee weapons. However, this unit cannot receive the inspiring presence command. Cool, I wasn't going to do that anyways. So yeah, they're like, they can be marked. So they can, you know, gain all sorts of stuff that we talked about earlier. All the things that we talked about earlier from the mark. So plus one to attack on the charge or plus one to run in charge or whatever. So all fun options. Yeah. These guys can get in there and do some work. Jordan, how are you feeling about, oh, great Theradons? I think these guys actually have a great like role. That's kind of unique where they're, where they're, with their profile, where they're pointed, they're not going to be your biggest, scariest threat, most likely. But they're also not the biggest target, right? So they're, they're the unit that is entering that shot at or attacked, necessarily turn one, turn two. And it's a great, great counter punch unit. It's, it's more susceptible with the worst save than your other stuff. So if your opponent does throw out of his way to target it, because they're potentially doing more damage to it, takes the heat off your other units, which are worth more, you know, there's more value in them. So they're in that kind of sweet spot where I think they can like, they'll sneak by in some matchups and then, you know, counter punch level something. Yeah, cool. I think they're like great. Yeah, they're right where they should be. They fill a very strong role. They're great. Also that gut rip is super dead. That guy is not long for this world. So they're wonderful. When I first looked at them, I mean, it just reminded me of kind of old school, 10 drives in the front, three sides behind, swinging over the top, 190 points, just have three third ends as an immediate counter punch, anything that comes into like 10 chaos wears. That sounds nice. Like that's not a huge investment to give some immediate blowback. You'd write coming into 10 chaos warriors on an objective, whatnot. That's cool. Or six of these for 380. As again, a soul scream bridge play. That's really attractive. With Slanej, that's a relatively small investment. You keep them way back. And you have that as an ongoing threat with fairly minimal investment. That's 100 points cheaper than 10 chosen. Yeah, I think these guys could make an appearance in a number of different lists. They're intriguing, both in threes and sixes. Yep, agreed. The chaos war shrine, we talked about all the buffs earlier. It's 185 points. It's a priest and a totem. So again, issue commands, which is cool. And it has spells. The other thing, the only thing I didn't mention earlier is it does still broadcast out. It's a friendly mortal slays to darkness units. Get the ward of six up within its protection of the dark god's radius. Other than that, we talked about all of the different prayers it can do. They're all on a three. They're all varying degrees of fine, the Slanej one being the best one. Yeah, not a monster and no chart, but 14 wins. This thing has one big problem. How good are you at rolling three ups? Sure. That's why he's there. You don't roll a three up. And if you don't, you're going to feel real bad at this price investment in my mind. Sure. Is there mystical terrain on your board? That's the question you're asking. It's you're hunting for that real hard. Yeah. There's some great buffs here, but I cannot stand the idea of putting 185 points into something that I'm just banking on a three up. Sure, sure. Jordan, where you live with this guy? Yeah, same boat. Like, do you really want to take it into the nest for those chosen? If it was like a hero or something, and you can take the match rate three roll all day, all day take it if you're taking chosen. But without that, I agree with Tyler that it's like, I've been hurt too bad by three ups in the past, right? Yeah, we all have, so. I mean, mathematically, a three up to pray is a six and a half to cast if you want to. If you want to, it's slightly harder than a six, but slightly easier than a seven on two, 2D6. I hate it. And good point by Ridge. Otherwise, it's not going to anything else for you, right? Right, really? You're only taking it for the prayer, and it's not as reliable as you need it to be. Yep, agreed. I mean, it's a good number of wounds, but yeah, it's not doing much in combat. Yeah, it's great. Agreed. Hey, it can run in charge and it's the empty throne. It does have a mount. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. Funny. I don't know why you'd want to, but it can. Yeah. Okay. I wish the six up ward was also six up in less. I don't know, just like that'd be nice spell in the spell. Add that on top. Anyway, either here or there. Okay, chariots. Got two different flavors, as always. We got our regular chaos chariots that are either 100 points for one or 300 points for three. There's no middle ground. You take it in one of those two formations, right? And if you take the big unit, you get the champion guy. Okay, cool. Seven wounds for, say, a 12-inch move on the normal chariot, nine-inch move, eight wounds on the Gourvy's chariot. Both have actually some interesting things going on. I don't know that they're ever going to really merit inclusion in the list, but I do want to give them credit for at least trying to pick some very clear roles here and lanes for these two things. I have put one chariot in when I had 100 points left, and I was like, all right, sure, why not? Okay, I've got exactly 100 points in my list. Let's do it. At any rate, the regular chariot can once for battle, it can run in charge, which is cool. It's a good ability on an already decently fast unit. And then importantly, it has the ogre charge. Like when it charges, you roll a dice for whatever your charge roll was. On every five up, the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound. So, okay, cool. Nice little mortal wound impacty thing. The Gourvy's chariot obviously does a little more damage because of the Gourvy's itself, but it's a little more, I just want to be super clear, it's not that huge of a difference. But the important part about that one is at the end of your combat phase, if this unit made a charge move this turn, it can make a normal move and can do so, even if it's within three inches of enemy units. If it does so, it can pass across other models with a wound's characteristic of four or less in the same manner as a model it can fly. In addition, after each other's move, you can pick one enemy unit, pass across and roll a dice for each model in this unit. For each three plus, that enemy unit suffers D6 mortal wounds. Whoa. Okay. Whoa. So, that is a very interesting ability. Now obviously this thing has to charge something and then survive, but wounds of four or less is pretty forgiving even in the current game. That's quite a lot of targets that this thing can roll over. And then you get to roll for each model in the unit and every three up is D6 mortal wounds. That is wild in certain situations. Each model in the Gorby's chariot unit. Correct. Yes. Yes. Not the enemy unit. Yeah. No. And then to chariot. Like, if you've got one, I told, yeah, I want to make sure nobody misunderstood me here. Like, if you have three of these chariots and they survive, right, you're going over the top. Theoretically, you can get all of them. Like, if your nine inch move can just have you tow over one of them and then move. And you get three rolls, right, at that, for three D6 mortal wounds, for that three up. Average is obviously two D6 mortal wounds. That's not bad. And remember, this will run in charge itself all the time in Knights of the Empty Throne. All right. I don't know. Is this good? So the case, I'm going to make a case for the Gorby's and the mortal wounds to me are icing on top. If you've ever played against or with a pig, heavy iron jaws, blood toofs, and it's a really good player who knows how to utilize, how to crush really well, to pin you with charges. If, when I see this more school of that unstoppable momentum, I'm not sending him to do damage. I'm not sending him, like, I'm pairing him with my Phelous Beer Varendard or my Chaos Knights where he's, you know, just on the side, tagging the unit I'm charging and blowing up. And he's staying safe, not getting hit back. And then moving nine inches and pinning the one enemy unit that I don't want to come counter punch me. Right. Right. Like that, that to me is like, Well, hold on. It wouldn't be able to end that nine inch move within three inches of any other unit because it makes a normal move. Right. So it's making a normal move. Oh, yeah. So like the prohibition is against, it can start the normal move within it's within three inches, but it has no, no part of the rule is alleviating the ending. Normally you cannot start or end a normal move within three inches of an enemy unit. Right. So it couldn't, it can't float to pin the second unit. Just to be fair. Yeah. That's fair. I think it's still, still utility there though as, you know, if you can tag it, that unit or, or whatever it has. Yeah. You're right. That's definitely a huge hit. I missed that one. So sad actually, because the, we all know how strong that iron jaws ability is. Yeah. It really is super strong. Oh. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's very much them going in and out, right? And like, they do okay damage when they fight. And boy, is it the okayest of okay, right? You're really pulling for that mortal wounds. Now, don't get me wrong. If you get three, three ups, boy, oh boy, is that a rough day for that unit potentially? Cause that's an average of 10 mortal wounds. That is not nothing. Okay. That's a lot. But it's 345 points at the same time. So it's like, but it is a lot of board control. It's a big basis. Yeah. And actually on that note, the big basis, you're right. Like without being able to tag, you can still screen out your unit. Yeah. Pretty effectively, you know, with that, like nine inches is a lot, right? It's, so we'll be able to move after protect your, you know, you know, units we talked about, but I think there's, still a roll there. Yeah. Uh, certainly wanted to need to actually test. I haven't had any tests. Don't know anybody who has Chris to hear if anybody has experience with it. It's intriguing, certainly, right? Probably mark these guys, Nurgle, to improve their durability, as they're trying to survive. Yeah. You could do slanesh to speed them up. Just give them even more charge to really like come in from downtown, right? Yeah, exactly. Which is notable. Yeah. You potentially try to set something up to assassinate a everyone hero. Set the conditions right to do that. But yeah. No, I think these guys are going to see play. Okay. I actually like the next list I want to try is actually like a, I want to try two packs of three of these in a co-tet list just to see if I can go for like maximum shenanigans. And kind of what I'm aping there is you remember the cities of Sigmar, like chariot spam lists. Now, those were having, those were using like shooty, shooty weapons, right? I'm using like long bomb charges and mortal wound pullaways to kind of fill that role. But I'm just like, I want to see if I can just go in, hit and then set up screens for the knights to then follow on, basically. I don't know if it will work or not, but it's going to be the next thing I try. So yeah. Do you guys find much value in the chaos chariot? I mean, the thing I was thinking of was like hit it with demonic speed, 3d6 to bump up the swift death, mortal wound number, little bits on those five up rolls. But yeah, the value of it is if you have a hundred points left and don't like cultists, you can fill a battle line slot. I think it's so close. If swift death was per model, not just for the unit. Right. A unit of set of three, obviously would be way more enticing. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. To me, I can't ever see the case for more than one and you're just like doing it to get it a battle line because you don't want to run cultists or something. Sure. Yeah. Okay. The Dark Oath War Queen, she drags other Dark Oath units into combat with her and if she fulfills her oath, which is she has to be holy within enemy territory, she can issue inspiring presence to two friendly Dark Oath or cultist units. She's a hundred points. Fine. That's all I have to say about her. That's what she does. She also has a five up word base because she has the cash shield. The Dark Oath Chieftain at 95 points is one of my favorite little dum-dums to carry around. A very funny hero in Cabalists because he suddenly becomes a wizard at 95 points, which is quite a cost effective little wizard. He has a little bonus mortal wound thing on his main sword. He has two different profiles. He does have Eye of the Gods, as I mentioned, like I did turn this guy into a demon prince. It was super fun. So that's cool. He's much harder to fulfill his oath because he's got to kill an enemy hero or monster. That's a tall order for this guy, but whatever. Look, man, you turn him into a wizard, flaming weapon, three damage, broadsword that can kick some mortal wounds. He'd get there. It's fine. And he can also pull Dark Oath Units into combat with him. They're both fine. They're just cheapest chip heroes. To me, the problem is it's like the Chaos Lord is right over there at 115, and I'm like, what's going on here? The little thing called the red new rule. Yeah, it's just like... Yeah, it's... One of these things is not like the other, right? So there you go. This is kind of the start of a miss for me in this battle tone, which is Dark Oath. It still feels like a miss. Like a little underdeveloped appendage. Exactly. Yeah, they did a little bit of cool stuff. Some cool things with Legion of the First Prince, Legionnaires, the core synergy, et cetera. But yeah, this one just still needs more work. Yeah, I agree. If you only have a small amount of points left and you need another hero, as I said, he's like the cheapest hero you can turn into a wizard in Cabalus, which is funny. So it's not, whatever, it's fine. I actually had a list where I had to swap to him because I just didn't have the points. Chosen. Here we go. Oh boy. We're back, baby. We're back. All right, Tyler, you've run... I haven't actually used Chosen at all yet, so I'm going to turn it over to you because you've been running the Chosen heavy. God. Ravi, have you had the pleasure yet? You got yours assembled? I don't, not built yet. Definitely joined you, but... Ryan on the channel, my buddy, has 10 of the old bottles, so he's been playing with those in a couple of games and... Fantastic. They slap. Yep, they are the Chaos Protectors here to shine. This unit, so three wounds, three save, eight bravery, goes to nine bravery with the Santa Bear, five-inch move, full splitter, great name, two-inch range, these acts, three is threes, minus one, two damage, beautiful. And then the musician, add one of the charge rolls, so you see that a lot with these core units, the iron units, warriors, et cetera, one bravery plus one to charge. World's Rune Nation, essentially once for battle, they can fight twice. Some interesting timing on this one, so a couple of things. Fun is that I believe you have to announce it right after they fight for the first time. Yep. Are we doing that correctly? Yep. They fought for the first time? Yep. Cool. And then the second thing is if they charge the turn when you do this, the way that it's warded, let's say they're not within three inches of any enemy units, because they charged, it's still pile in three inches toward the closest enemy units. And does that seem fair in the way that I'm reading that? That's correct. Yeah, they can... Okay, cool. Yeah, if you like... What you're saying is, let's make this real for everybody, okay? You charge, you hit a unit, you blow that unit into Kingdom Come, as will often be the output of this unit attacking, right? Because they have the hitting power of Plague Sensor Bears, and they only cost like three times as much, so it's fine. No, I'm just being funny there. They're obviously an amazing unit. They will tend to blow people up. Sure. You can still declare the fight twice, even if no one else is near you, because it doesn't have any trigger like that. If you do so, you'll get to go forward another three inches, and as we mentioned, they have that two inch reach. So their threat range off where they happen to be standing at the end of that fight is five inches away, right? Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, kind of nuance to pay attention to. All Loyal Prey followers, by the way, will know this well, because the sisters of slaughter are the exact same thing. Like, they'll fight again at the end of their combat, and they have a two inch reach, and so they'll just keep, they'll just drive deeper into your lines, so. Absolutely. So yeah, just some details you have to pay attention to. You have to think about, all right, what's my opponent likely to activate next? Could they potentially pull that model out of my threat range of five inches? So that means that I should not double activate, et cetera. But yeah, cool little details. Full splitter has unmodified sixes hit, mortal wounds on top. In addition. In addition, yes. Then finally, the wards of chaos, they get to roll on the eye of God's table right after deployment, which is amazing. 240 points for five. I think one of the most extraordinary units in this battle tone, you're going to see them a unit of 10 a lot. They are, yeah, all kinds of different options. Nurgle is really good. Make them tanky, roting icon. You can go the durability route. We've already talked about our banner screaming flesh. They come screaming in with 41 attacks. Make twice insane output. They one shot at a turtle Jordan that was on a two up save. Full full. I roll three more and nine mortal wounds. And just, I mean, with that many dice, you're going to roll a friend of a ones, right? It's two damage a pop on each one that you roll on your saves. So yeah, amazing unit. Yeah, I mean, these guys have called to be marked undivided because then they'll suddenly go eye of the gods in a big way. They have called to be corn marked. So you just, you know, if you're just going for the raw rage of extra attacks on the charge, they can go slanish marked for the extra reach and stuff like that. Like they work so well in multiple marks. They are clearly a very offensive unit. Their downside is, yeah, again, you're trying to mitigate out how do you deal with the five inch move? It's the classic protector problem. Yeah. And they are vulnerable to mortals, which is a good thing unless you get the five upward on the eye of the gods or, you know, zing banner whatever the case might be. But yeah. Jordan, any thoughts on this unit? I love them. I can't wait to get them on the table. Like, yeah, great delivery system. I'm a huge fan of protectors. Dude, your storm cast list that you're playing. I've literally written that list so many times. I can never bring myself to play it because obviously I'm going to have prime in there. And then I ended up with a Thunder Buddies list, a Bastion of Prime. But you had the perfect choice of heroes, relic tour, castellans, and then 10 GDs, 10 protectors, six strikes. No long strikes. You had the four fulminators. Four fulminators, yeah. Totally was. Okay. Anyway, that's right. Yeah, duties instead of the strikes, four fulminators, 10 protectors. The gentleman's way to go with the storm cast list. Love it. Good luck with the tournament that you've got coming up. I hope you do well with that. Appreciate it. I thought of you with the 10 GDs. Yeah. Chase, ask is it me or is it possibly better to go corn or slanesh in the STD book rather than the corn or slanesh books at the moment? Well, corn has a lot of play, but it's a very, very, very, very, very finicky army that you have to really know exactly what you're doing. It is capable of incredible power if you're really good at managing all of the things you got, like the levers and buttons and dials you have to be turning. As far as slanesh goes, there is no question. This is like the slanesh, STD is eight million times better than anything in the slanesh book, a thousand percent. That is a very unfortunate comparison. Okay. Chaos spawn. Yep. That's a chaos spawn need. Next. Okay. Chaos warriors. Look, they got a three up save now, guys. Okay. That's what's important. Here we go. This is what we are. This is where we're living. Plus one bravery from the standard, plus one to charge from the horn blower, 10 for 220. They are about a line, two attacks on threes and threes, neg one, one, or they can take the halberd, I guess some that might matter at some point, but I would never do it. They get plus one attack if it's holy within enemy territory or holy within 12 inches of an objective that you do not control. And of course, they have their five up save against mortals. Now, the obvious way to do these guys is to mark them Nurgle, as we've already talked about many times. I will now defend marking them corn. So I am kind of a fan of the eight fold doom sigil. Okay. It is a weird finicky thing to play, but if you're playing an offensive S2D unit, we'll talk about when we get there, I think it can work. And so I had these guys sitting around and I took little packs of 10 of these dudes, just 10 cashwares all marked corn. And I had this little pack of 10 of them and they are two attack space and they are corn marked. So on the charge, they get plus one attack and they charged on to fight an enemy who was on an objective that I do not control. They could put them to four attacks and they had plus one attack from the doom sigil. So they were five attacks each. So by the time they fought, because they didn't activate them first, I only had seven left. But seven of them generated 36 attacks and I all had attacks. So it was 36 attacks on twos and threes. Neg one, one damage. And they chopped the living crap out of the thing they were fighting out of this stupid unit. They're just like punching way above its weight is the point. Right? It's not, is that like chosen damage? No, it's not even close. It's not even close. Okay. But you don't expect the 10 cast warriors to suddenly explode. Right? Explode, boy. Explode. And they did. And so I think that's a very funny build. I think it's interesting because they can still fill the sort of chaff roll and that, you know, whatever, whatever with the toughness. It depends on how what you need your animals to do. So I love cast warriors. I think they're actually super versatile, beautiful new models. They're great. Jordan, what you got? What do you, what do you, where are you living on cast warriors? Red and butter. Like you're never sad about taking as many as you want. Super tanky. You obviously mentioned the, the nerdle mark with the banner. A 20 block of those isn't moving. Yep. So that's. Are you as a, as a kind of generalized build trying to think about like, I know this is sometimes a tough question, right? Context always matters, but are you going two by 10 or one by 20? Do you think like? I think if I am taking warriors, I'm probably doing personally into a 20 block. A 10 isn't quite, you know, putting in a source of banner on it is a big investment that could go elsewhere. And a 10 block, even with the initial banner can still get lifted. Fairly easily. So they don't get a chance to, you know, get the big rally and host the ever chosen. So I think if you want, you know, I think you want a 20 block with warriors. And if you want small peripheral screens, then you're going, looking at cultists for that kind of a role. So I've been having this debate as well. I'm joining in these six games, right? I was, I always loved the idea of MSU, you know, that's when I have that bias. We, we love to play MSU armies. I've been trying to make MSU work and it just hasn't quite got there. I played a lot like, here's Karazai, here's Archeon, here's nine necropolis stalkers and I, they're just getting blown up. And I'm like, even the eroding icon, I've only got 10 of them. So I'm not getting as much value out of it. It's like, okay, then I switched to the 20 and so far that's certainly felt better. It does affect you on board control and you need to find ways to make up for that. That can be one of that. This book has a lot of incentives for you, I think, for you to run these bigger units, right? Like you have in clear incentives to run, I think 20 chaos warriors, not two by 10, clear incentive to run one by 10 shows and not two by five, etc. Maybe, maybe there's not as much of a case with 10 chaos knights, we can get into that, we can get into them. But anyhow, yeah, I was just curious where you where you land on that. Yeah, that's chosen or great there. I think overall, you know, the Odroid was the Therodons. I think they're great three packs. Like think of them behind 20 block of chaos warriors where, you know, they're sitting in the middle of them. And if you're not going for the like, or their counters punching after you get into the warriors. That's cool. Yep. But they obviously fill the anvil role extremely well. So if we're talking anvil, then it's time to start talking hammers. And that's unfortunately the other war scroll on this page. Chaos knights also went to the three up save. That's what's important. They're now only Lance. Also a thing to note there, they're always Lance. No more do you have the choice of the other little swords or whatever. Your champions plus one attack, he can also have the silly flail if you want, but whatever. Um, you have plus one bravery three bravery eight. And your musician actually doesn't give you plus one to charge. Uh, a lot of people just read that and were like, yeah, it's plus one to charge just like all the other musicians. Nope. No, it is not. It is a way different rule. Your musician lets you change one of the dice on your charge roll to a four, which is fantastic. It does mean your men charge as a five. Like that's flat out. That's what it means, right? Base. But it also means your chances, as you said, Tyler of getting to the nine are highly increased. Right. Because if you get like, you roll the dice, you just need one of them to be a five. Right. Just show me at five here. Nope. We lost. We lost here. Just like camera turned off. Hey, there you go. You're back. You're back. Okay. They also have this amazing rule called Writers of Doom. When a model in this unit makes an attack with its cursed lance, instead of using the range characteristic for that attack, you can target enemy units that are within half an inch of another model from this unit that is itself within half an inch of the attacking model. Impale. We'll talk about that in a second more, but impaling charge is still plus one to damage and plus one to rent. So they go to rent two, damage two on the charge, and they still have a five up 230 points for five in their battle line. They are fantastic. The advantage to the Writers of Doom means that you can get them very, very, very thin and still doing it like you can have two and then three behind and basically be delivering pretty maximal hit. You can turn it into the old plutonium lance formation. These guys have plutonium lances. That's the easiest thing I can say about them. Right. That's that's it. We all like gas knights, right? I mean like 100 percent. The worst kit I've ever built, though, from the new starter box. I don't know if you guys have built those ones. I have. Yeah, I built 10 of them. Yeah. I'm excited for the non-pushed to fit kit to come out. Sure. But those have worse than some of us, you know, the Luminath cavalry and that same something. But yeah, I love these guys from the way they can fight to what they do, to how they charge, to how they hit. We didn't mention it, but their curse lance is now three attacks on fours, threes, neg one one. Sucks, they're still on fours to hit. I hate that, but it doesn't matter. They still generally get there. It just means they need to be like one of your primary, they need to be getting plus one to hit somewhere. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I've been doing a lot of demonic power with them. Exactly. I've put them on threes and twos. So that's pretty sweet. Yeah. Don't know guys. I mean, I've, yeah, I have more of a question mark in my head about the unit of 10, the one by 10, that I do the one by 10 shows and the one by 20 chaos warriors. Oh, I'm all about packs of five of these guys. I think 10 is an overcommit. They get lifted too easy. Yeah. And they write because they can get my experience so far, they can get bogged down a little bit and a tenor. And I've also, I mean, it didn't help that. Yeah, Jordan and I got blood tooths. I mean, I thought they were far enough away and then he just rolled the big chart and like, oh, cool. Well, there's a wasted unit of 460 points. Lovely. And I thought I was completely, yeah, just frustrating. So yeah, I do worry about the just, yeah, them getting bogged down with with a tenor. Yeah, exactly. It's the problem is they're very susceptible to the counter punch, right? Like they will tend to do very good damage to whatever they go into, but they're very counter punchable because then they're off turn, off charge and now they're like doing damage, right? And 10 gets bogged down super easy, whereas little packs of five, it's like you send it in. They generally blow up. Most things will do the damage they need to. Yes. Then they go to counter punch that unit and then you bring in another pack of five to fight that first pack out. Right? Something like that. We mentioned a little bit, but just stated explicitly, both you and I ran corn and slanish for the two by five. So at least in my case, I don't know if you were doing this, but I didn't have the slanish banner on the five. But I of course had the slanish hero command ability I would give to those five chaos knights, right? So they can run in charge, they're getting the bonus on the charge, etc. Gives them incredible threat. And then of course, demonic speed on the corn. So yeah, it gives you really good threat range on the two units. And that's, that's been working pretty well as a, it's kind of like a counter attack in round two in particular. So yeah. Okay. Marauder horsemen and marauders, these exist. Um, my read is there is no purpose to these guys anymore, right? I'm missing anything. They sit in the untenable space between all of the cultists, which are cheaper and do more better things. And who are also battle line and the warriors and knights who are highly effective specialized pieces at their role. These guys could have been just a stamp, do not play. Yeah, I move on. Yeah, they clearly don't want us playing. Which by the way, good. They're all old ugly sculpts. It's actually that. Are they facing an out and old kit? Yeah. Like finally, we put the bad rules on the bad models. Yes, good alignment. Keep doing that. Like, I was sick of marauder thon. So it's a that age has ended. They're terrible models. We don't need to see them anymore. We can all stop playing them. Let's move on. All right. Mutolith vortex beast. He is marked zinge automatically. He is this tentacle monster guy. Uh, okay. Here's what's relevant about this, dude. He's 185 points for a 14 wound monster. He'll go to 16 wounds into spoilers. He is what I would call okay. And the reason I call him okay is because his his warp reality thing that he does is mutation aura is an 18 inch range. Again, long for this book, it is effectively a ranged attack for him. This guy's completely pointless and melee, by the way, he does nothing. So he's only using this. However, if you have him near a zinge wizard, which isn't like that hard to accomplish. You get to roll the dice twice and pick either one when you're rolling for what the mutation is. And the important part is if you roll it, if you get the six, you then the unit you picked with an 18 inch suffers D6 mortal wounds. And if anything is slain, you get to set up a chaos spawn in combat with the unit. Okay. Which as we all learned from the zinge rule or from the zinge tome, hitting especially ranged units, killing things in there, and then putting them in combat with a chaos spawn is pretty, pretty good. Pretty good. But he's otherwise like a lot of points for that trick. I wish his, you know, the one through four abilities were better. Yeah. Like, like, and then it'd be really interesting, right? If there was like a minus one to hit or, you know, reducing a move and run by one is just not enough. Agreed. Yeah. Even if it didn't last the whole rest of the game, even if it was like if the three abilities were like until your next hero phase, neg one to wound or neg one to attacks or half move, right. But again, limited all until your next hero phase, I would be in like Flynn on this guy. Right. Because now, now we're talking about some interesting debuffs getting out and doing some work. Yeah. The problem is you've got to have this each year out of babysit him because he has to roll the two dice and even then he can still come up empty. Like I said, I haven't put a list together, but I could see somebody trying to run multiples of these as Kabbalah's multiple wizards max out on three in the spells. Like Jaws plus rupture combo to make Jaws better. Another damage dealing in the spell. And you're just leaning into the range damage and you're trying to get five ups on these things to do D6 mortal wounds from 18 inch range on top of your spells and whatever else you can do. Sure. Yeah. I don't know what that list looks like. I haven't built it, but there might be something there. Yeah. Okay. The soul grinder. I want this guy to be good so bad, but like, look, the soul grinder is funny because he's 18 wounds to the 12 inch move. He goes to 20 wounds into spoilers, which is a wild amount of wounds for just a regular monster. He's 230 points. He has a lot of attacks. He actually has ranged attacks, which is rare in the slaves of darkness army. He can run and shoot, which is funny, but not run in charge. I mean, you could, he can be marked. So he can have run in charge as well in various ways. You know, the problem with this guy, like, look, marking him corn so he gets multiple attacks with that Hellforge claw, where he could do D6 mortal wounds and stuff, you know, is cool. Like, that's a fun thing. But this guy mostly hits on fours and is a walking monster on a pie plate base because he's on the 160 mil round. And that is forever the giant challenge with this guy. Like, he just has this fundamental, like, power per square inch, we've talked about it a lot. It's why I like things like the silly little exalted hero and the chaos lord and stuff like that. They pack a lot of power per square inch. They're tiny bases that can go do things. This dude is the opposite. He packs not enough power into way too much of a space, right? Really spread out. It's too little butter. Spread across too much toast. Anybody want to defend the soul grinder? It's like with, you know, plus two wounds in the one sub faction, it's like, you know, I just want it to be good, right? Right. But it's not, it's not there. A little more reliable damage, maybe it just, it doesn't much, honestly. Yeah. At that price point. Yeah. Does the price seem that bad to you, Jordan? Like, I mean, two thirties, fairly cheap for 18 wounds, potentially 20 wounds. 20, if it was on a three up, I'd say all day. Sure. You know, that's why it's just need to let it like. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out, like, yeah, why, why it definitely starts with the force to hit, as you said. Yeah. I mean, the fact that this guy is down the road, basically forced to hit. Yeah. Like a lot of, a lot of people, yeah, the pie plate can be a challenge in terms of, yeah, getting him, getting him to do what you want to do. And maybe he's part of like a blocking scheme. Like here's Jaws and here's my 160 millimeter pie plate. Yeah. Space, maybe. I mean, just, just, yeah, the 230 point price tag, like, you know, rounds 3, 4, 5, when you've both already traded big hammers for big hammers. And you throw demonic power on this guy. It's not nothing. Doesn't have eye of the gods. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's the monster. So. Think more about him. I'm not sure. He's like the most on the line of the, of the monsters to me. Like, I am going to play with this dude. I mean, I have a couple of little grinders because I'm that kind of player. I'm that kind of moron. And so, you know, it's just like, again, his base is so problematic. Ben said on the GW website, it says he's on 100 by 150. That can't be. That's not a real base. There's no such thing. That is not an existing base. Almost hugged at least 160. The biggest oval, sorry, the biggest, yeah, the biggest oval is the chariot base. It's 100. Well, that's not true. The biggest oval is the night Titan base that only gets used on one model in AOS, which is 170 millimeters by 110. That's used on the black coach. So like, I don't, I don't know what that base would be. That that is an imaginary base. That's like a, that's like the base on the Dreadsorian. It's not real. Yeah, guys, I was trying to think about all the different ways they might be able to use this guy. The like, maybe, uh, Eslanash, high mobility pin piece. Maybe, but it's a lot of points to invest. Oh, that's, yeah. Okay. So hold on. Ben, that's a square base. That's why it's 100 by 150. Yes. No, that's fine. That's that. No, no issue, Ben. That's the square base because this kid is like ancient. So it, they literally, it just comes with the old square base. Yeah. It's 160 mil round. Yeah. Okay. Slaughter brood. Still bad. Great. Next. Anybody want to defense a lot of root? 75. He's bad. He's bad, Tyler. All right. I'll take it. Look at the rent. I mean, you can stop reading. I haven't looked at this guy very closely. I was curious about his special. What are these following commands that they issued by this master? Nothing. He's bad. It's all about being here. Okay. 175 is fair amount. Okay. All right. I'll take your word for it. Yeah. It's look. I want this guy to be good too. He looks super cool. He's not good. Okay. Fair enough. Centurion Marshall. Okay. 10 wounds. The worst number of wounds. And he like it's, this guy could maybe do something. We talked to, we, Tyler, you and I sketched a guy out with this. Here we go. So let's put this dude in cabalists or give him an arcane tone. I'm just going to take you through the way you could make this guy potentially do something. First of all, he's automatically undivided marked. He has four attacks with his spear on three, three's neg one, two. Okay. Each time this unit fights, make the attacks with its mauling spear first until the end of the phase add one to the attacks characteristic of its skull bludgeon and very inspired gladius for each successful hit scored by attacks made with its mauling spear. Okay. So we're going to try to get this guy to buy the God's rules because that's a big part of my plan here. Right? But we give him a little book or some kind of that. We put flaming weapon on the second attack. Then we're going to, we're going to like all out attack this guy or something. So he hits on twos. Hopefully I can get four twos. Now he's got 10 attacks with the second weapon, which is what I put the flaming weapon on. So now he's 10 attacks on three, three's no rent, two damage, just trying to really like spam out multi damage attacks. Right. Whatever. His other thing is he can rally cultists on a five up, as long as they're still undivided, which is important. If you take the dollar lord and switch their mark, he doesn't work anymore. And he can also like roll a die and on a six up, a six up, a six up. He makes an enemy unit that has five or less models or that is not a monster fight less because he gets him in the net. He is bad. I want to save this guy because I think he looks cool as. But like, no. I kind of like him. Just the martial of the legions. I agree. Getting that five of rally and other sub factions. Yeah. Legion of the first prince is obviously what I'm thinking of number one. I feel like he's a nice legion of the first prince piece. Okay. Yeah. Because then you could tilt him around. He could, he could take the other marks as well. A lot of good options undivided mortal and legion of the first prince with, yeah. I, I, okay. Fair. He's not as bad as like the slaughter brute. Let's be fair here. I think there is ways you could build like let's be reasonable. This guy's probably like a four out of 10 for me. I think he's going to often not make the cut, but I don't think he's trash or anything. He's fine. Yeah. I need to still build some list, but I could see running him in Legion. Yeah. As one of the one of the heroes getting the five up rally. Again, number of good units. You put that on. Sure. Talked about how I think this book wants you to build some big units, like maybe two, you know, 20 warriors and 10 chosen or 30 splinter faying and 20 warriors, whatever. But like two big size units, you can really lean into rally plus, plus everything else. So yeah, I, but outside of Legion. I'm not sure. Maybe your idea. Yeah. Cabalus is interesting. I mean, he's still carrying the rally with him. So he's still doing it in any of the things. You have to be willing to stick to undivided, right? Yes, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I said Coltus earlier. Yes, he can rally anybody with it who is an undivided mortal. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. That's too bad. Okay. So we're saying he's, I was I too harsh. We moved him up to, okay, potential. There's potential there. I think so. Yeah. All right. You won me over. You won me over. How about the Chaos Legionnaires? Anybody, anybody stepping up for these guys? Love them. Okay. Walk me through it. Why do you like them? Just cheap outlying. And it's the no commands ability. So. Yeah. Specifically once per turn. Like at the start of any phase. So, you know, hammer comes into them to clear a screen and you make sure they can't get all our attack or something like that. Or you need, you want to stop someone from rallying or use an inspiring presence. Like they're in the role of just, you know, cheap screens for the bodies. But they have a great tech utility. And to me, it's like that ability would be interesting if it was once per battle. But the fact that it's once per turn. Per turn. You're using it 10 times, potentially a game at key moments. I think it's really neat. I like these guys as well. Yeah. I got a game in against them, two units. The core synergy was in place. They synergize with the Ternus, Furies and Legionnaires, give a Ternus the bonus command point. Yeah. So I like the little synergies that are going on. Gets them on threes and threes with Bellacor, Holy Within 12. That's cool. Put out an impressive amount of damage, actually. I mean, my friend Trav, he was, I don't know, maybe I came here actually if he was rolling above average or not. But I was surprised by the damage output of these guys. He was in bounty hunters, right? So he had three and every eight models must be a horn helm at one of the damage characteristic. So I can't recall if he had a reinforcement or not, but those guys are putting out three damage with two attacks. And then the base guys, it was an impressive amount of output. Sure. Caught me off guard. And I mean, they are on a four up save, which is unusual for sort of chaff at this point cost, right? Like obviously that's not moving the world, but it's fine. Like it means that people actually have to work a little to kill them. Totally. And it's yeah, it's nice to have a option on the cheaper end. Instead of 10 warriors at 220, you take two units of these guys, spread out the units a little on the battlefield. I like them a lot in Legion of the First Prince, especially. Yeah. Nice. Dig them. Okay. They get the thumbs up. Horns of Hush shoot, shoot. Of Hush shoot. Okay. Couple things about the horns. Like they're bad, unless somebody wants to defend these guys. But an interesting thing is they have no mark. They do not have mark of the gods, nor do they have a set mark. They do not have that rule because they worship a different God. It's like they're not undivided. They're not anything. They're just cultists. Oh, weird. Oh, yep. I didn't catch that. Interesting. They worship a different guy. Yep. That's funny. So, yep. Let's see. So if you were to do what you're getting, up to eight attacks, Taker's Rikid of Flame Hurler is equal to number of models, the target unit. So if you max, I'm guessing, yeah, battle lines you can double reinforce. You're at 30. So eight times. So you're at 24 shots, using threes, but no rends. I'm guessing the eye of the gods improves random melee only. Well, they don't have the eye of the gods. They don't have the eye of the gods. They're not undivided. You just went over that. Can't make them undivided. They're, yeah, I'm not seeing it. Jordan, do you see anything with these guys? No, at the point stress, there's more utility in other units that are, you know, doing the screening role. Agreed. So the tarantulas brood your spider dudes. I'm going to lump them in the same bit as like a miss for me because there's just other cultists that I think are way better at this point cost. Now, an interesting part about this guy is they do regenerate quite a fair number of units because you get to return D3 slain spider swarms, right? And you get 13 models for the hundred points, three of which spider swarms and you get to return D3 of those at the start of your hero phase. It's not nothing. The problem with me is I work about to flip over to snake people and snake boys also get to return one snake every round. And the comparative here is really, really shocking. So like the problem is maybe these guys could be okay in some world, but they're a pass for me. Yep. Yep. I agree. Yeah. And obviously Brent, you are dead wrong 100%. That is the dumb God to worship. Your God is dead. It means nothing. No one cares about a shit. That is not a real God right now. Okay. Anyways, there we go. Now that I've been sufficiently mean to poor Brent, who's never done anything but be nice to everybody in his entire life and is such a great human being. Okay. Hey, look who's right on the next page. Here they are. All right. Let's talk about it. They're 100 for 10. They're battle line. They're bent. It's the splintered fang. Here they are. So let's walk through it. Poison weapons. So the unit makes 42 attacks. Or sorry, 32 attacks. I apologize. I'm already marking them corn. The unit makes 32 attacks because they're three attacks each, fours and twos, no random damage. Every roll of a six is a mortal wound and they get back their serpents every round. So obviously the first wound always goes to the serpents and the serpent keeps coming back. Okay. In your hero phase. If you take a dollar or a lord and flip them over to corn, then on the charge, they're 42 attacks, which amounts to mathematically, given what they have, with nothing else going on. Like we're not going to all attack them. We're not doing anything special. Okay. 42 attacks is seven mortal wounds and 17 wounds you have to save against for 100 points when these guys charge. The list I played against was the list I played against was ravagers with five by 10 of these and then Archeon to back them up and give them a fight on death. So, and then he was recalling half the unit every time, not picking the snake. So he'd put five non-snake bottles back and then instantly the snake would pop back. So he'd have six guys. Okay. Rude. So he's getting a full refund of six out of the 10 models effectively, right? So, and, you know, yes, at the moment, you can technically take the other corn pieces like the blood secretor and blood stoker and other stupid nonsense. And yes, it will work on these guys when you flip them corn with idolater lord. Okay. And that is all bad and you're a bad person if you do it. There you go. That's what I'll have to say because obviously that'll get fixed in the new book. We want to names. If we want to name names, we can do that on certain certain channels, certain players. What are we going to do? We can just move on. It's like, it is so obviously we're talking blood secretor plus attack. Other thing benefit more from the blood stoker plus rerun and charge. That's all. And for the rerun, it's stupid. But you don't even need it, right? Like, no, you don't. Then you're investing more into like these guys. You're then also confiding yourself in terms of ranges and you know, buffs and all that. It's like, like you said, just like a couple 10 blocks and maybe a 20 blocker. Like those are so scary for anyone to go into for so little investment. And again, like you said, like ravagers, that's the the perfect build. Like you played against Vince with Archeon making them fight on death, the unit that's going to die after it fights or when it's screening. And then coming back for half the unit. It's amazing. Yeah. My ogroids lifted a 10 pack and then they had the fight on death on and then they turned around and killed four of the ogroids. Obviously they're real strong. It's obviously these guys are sold out everywhere right now. So what we were to look at, you know, balancing a unit like this. And this is maybe different so people from going out and buying 60. Do you think of what kind of, you know, a points hike is going to, you know, is that something we should expect to see? You know, it's interesting because honestly, the two to wound is so egregious here. Like it seems so stupid, right? But I found that it made a huge difference. Because like I said, the fact that almost when they come in with 42 attacks, again, we're just going to assume mathematical averages, right? They hit with 21 of them, seven of which are mortal wounds and sort of stop, I guess. It's not technically 17 to not save again. Sorry. It'd be because seven of which are 14. So it's 12. I apologize because I was, I was doing an addition. It's not an addition. So, you know, like, but those other wounds are just like more egregious sort of stuff on top. You know, it's just weight of dice you can get to. Yeah. It just ends up being more weight of dice, right? And, you know, I don't know. Is it knock them down to two attacks each so they don't go completely ham? As long as the corn stuff is around, like until the new corn book comes out, these guys are very hard to balance because you will be incentivized to just like, yeah, you don't really need the other stuff. But like, hey, why not take a blood secretor? He's got a pretty good range on that portal. Like why not? You know, just like, let's put them at 42 or 52 attacks base. Like sounds good, you know. And, you know, like, what do you price these guys at for the kind of hitting power they bring to the table? Because they'll lift a lot of what they go into. Right. And by the way, this is all the mathematical averages. God forbid they roll even slightly out of the box the positive side. Yeah. All right. For 200 points, you're doing 14 mortal wounds. Right. Right. Like, it's a lot. You know, like they charged a turnist, like 10 of them just charged a turnist, like nailed a long charge against a turnist and lifted him before he fall. Like just it was just straight up nine mortal wounds. He's dead instantly. Pick him up. Didn't even get to rolling the normal wounds. Right. And so it's like, they just have this combination of like a crap ton of offensive power, the ability to be regent in ravagers. You know, they synergize super well with a million things. I don't know what the fix is here is my honest answer. Like what do you what? What's fair? 200 points. You double their points. Right. That seems egregious. But like they certainly have the hitting power of a 200 point unit. Easily. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. They weren't one attack in your book. Two attacks, I think in the old book. Yeah, I think they were two. Yeah. Like I'm not sure either. I'm thinking about spite revenants. Actually Jordan with the like spite revenants are not getting played much. Why are spite spite revenants do mortal wounds on sixes to hit? I believe it's not. I can't remember if it's an addition or not, but spite revenants have a number of built in limitations. They're only battle line and dreadwoods. They're 32 mils instead of right instead of 25s. These guys are like a mix of 25s and 28s. Yeah, sure. I think also the sprites are five per unit at comparable cost, right? So half the attacks, they're half the volume. Yeah, solely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't run the stats. I didn't run the stats hammer. Tyler, when I say they hit like a 200 point unit, like I'm pretty sure if I ran the math on knights on the charge who are 230 points, right? And I'll give them like the corn mark or whatever versus these guys on the charge. I don't think the damage would come up that incredibly different. Well, again, spite revenants in my head right now. Yeah. So you're paying 210 points for 1031 attacks of spite revenants doing a similar profile, three attacks each and mortal wounds on sixes. So yeah, but not fours and twos. Sure. Like that threes and threes, kind of about. You can easily move the hit number on these guys to threes if you need to, right? You can't move the wound number around on units very easy. And like twos is a wild thing to wound on. Okay. Yeah, I didn't yet. I guess they do seem like they are dramatically under costed. I wasn't thinking they're that under costed, but maybe they are. And especially in context comparing them to the previous two worst roles like. Oh, sure. You know, 100 points you expect to be throwaway chaff, right? These are throwaway chaff. That's what you're buying. But it also doesn't say no, but like. And it's tough because it's also situational of where they really explode, right? Like with RK on in ravagers. So do you price them or punish them based on that one, you know, situation where they. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. I have to think more about it, but penitively under priced. That's hard to say. All in to say. Oh, a slight warning that this is something that could be a blip that, you know, jumps out is being very powerful and we could see some changes as, you know, and nobody knows. But, you know. The tallest nail kind of gets hit first. Right. So if you're going to throw out and buy a bunch of these, just be aware. So bloodletters are 110 points for 10. And I mean, most people seem to think bloodletters are crap. One attack. Yeah. And one attack. You give them three attacks like they use, that was literally AOS one. That was the plan. You ran those guys up the three, four attacks and then they would mortal wound on low numbers and just like explode units, right? Dan Ford and company back. Yeah. Back in the day. All right. Tyler, I just ran the stats hammer while we're sitting here talking a unit of 10 of these guys. Again, I'm just running straight numbers. I'm assuming no buffs. So 10 of these dudes in Cornmark, right? So they make four attacks each, fours to hit, twos to wound, no rend, one damage. Their average damage against a four up save unit is 12.22. Okay. A unit of chaos knights who cost 130 points more. Right. And are they clear hammer in this book? Five models, four attacks each. Again, we're going to Cornmark them or Slanesh Banner them. Assume that they go to four attacks, right? Fours, threes, neg two, rend two damage. So again, optimal 11.11 damage. The snakey boys beat them by a whole damage point and are 130 points cheaper. There's your numbers. Yeah. All right. Well, fair to say we've identified maybe the defining problem in the book. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I'm not sure there's anything more unbalanced than what we're discussing here. Like it's the fact that they can do so many mortals and then stack so many wounds on top and also, as we said, all the all the synergistic combinations. It's not just like I see a lot of people in the comments making these like one unit to one unit combinations, but that's not it's not just that comparison. It's also putting it with Archeon and fight on death. It's also that you can resummon back half the unit. Right. So you take 50 of them, you actually end up with 80. It's all those kinds of things. Right. So. Same. Okay. And like the problem is it's a very twisted around set of then incentives you have around the rest of the book. So. Because things like this, this next scroll we're about to read should be pretty appealing. Right. Like because the cabal are cool. Like this is actually a cool unit. They look awesome and they have a neat story here. They're like 80 points for nine dudes. They're invisible when they're in terrain and if they charge when they're wholly on terrain, they can fly when making the charge move and instead of setting them up, you can keep them as a reserve unit and then drop them down nine inches away. Awesome. This is the Gorgia role we talked about in the last in the Ogre book. Right. Like two of these is worth four victory points because you can drop them behind the lines and do barge and do desecrate. Like. Five because you can get the bonus because they're battle line. You can get the bonus for barge. Okay. Yeah. Good point. Two units to get the bonus. Yeah. Yeah. So like I think Corvus are really good. Awesome. Oh, 100%. Yeah. So like. Or are. I mean, that's really cheap. 80 points. It's so cheap. This kind of unit. Yeah. For like you said, five, five, you know, three points. Good for a small unit. Just cool. They're just cool. But they have like completely reasonable attack profile. I agree with two headed cap. We said they're the best not broken cultists. I like them a lot. Yeah. Seem a little too cheap. Like just a little. They're they're amazing. Yeah. They're going to make their way. I mean, they're just doofuses on a six up save. Right. They're there for like that kind of screening and and like they're they're battle tactic getters that then go fly around and chat. That's it. Yeah, they're they're cheap shadow sockers, mobile screens. They're automatic. Yeah. Three points through battle tactics there. I mean, it's just incredible value for a total cost of 160 points. Yeah. Two units. It's the same reason. I think most ogre lists will just randomly have two gorgers in them. Yeah. So like once we get out of iron blaster phase or whatever probably, although I believe one of the iron blaster lists from the weekend did have two gorgers in it. So yeah, I mean, I like trios the same reason. So Let's take it. You're a fan of the cabal. Yeah, they're cool. Rich showed them. He got me onto them too or they kind of pointed it out. They're great. Yeah. I easy easy to fit too many, you know, two in a list. Yep. To use these guys. Speaking of like once I find interesting, the unmade 80 points for nine dudes. So again, like cheapest chips like attack wise, whatever, whatever, of course, you're not taking any of these guys really for their attacks unless you're taking the snakes being a weird stand out. But these guys have an ability called frozen in fear and its enemy units cannot receive the redeploy and rally commands while they are within 12 inches of any friendly units with this ability. Love shutting off redeploy a lot like you mentioned earlier, the power of redeploy, you know, Jordan and like boy, I love shutting off redeploy and I love shutting off rally and it's a unit, right? So you can get them kind of spread out in a pseudo weirdish way like if you do the little thing and that's quite a big area. They'll spread that out around move them up first and no one's getting a redeploy away from you and suddenly all your units can land very easy charges like it's I like unmade a lot. Yep. Playing yep. They're gonna see play. Yeah, they feel like an easy include for a unit. Like if I've got 80 points this is a pretty easy investment for me. Definitely. Because they obviously double up as just chaff. Like just they're also just cheap chaff like cool fine. Um, the cipher lords. No. Yeah. Pass. They can't all be winners. Scions of the flame. Pass. Spire tyrants. Also pass. I'm just I'm not in for you these guys like again at the 80 point mark for this number of models we've we've we had we just identified two different units that have a clearly defined role. Right. Funny comparing the spire tyrants to splitter thing is hilarious. Yeah, well we'll have the best comparison for them in a moment which is on the next page. Iron Golems, you know, like they used to be the better version of chaos warriors because they had the plus one to save. But this unit has an FAQ question. You ready for this? Add one to save roles for attacks that target this unit if it has not made a normal move in the same turn. Yeah. You with me so far? Is run the same thing as a normal move now? No. Okay. So I can run and still have by plus one to save. Uh, not made, I guess so. Guess that's what we're doing. Good stuff. Excellent. Awesome. I think that's right. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Right. Yeah. They've made it very clear. Yeah, they're they're different. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, like that feels like not what they were aiming at and they just missed that. But like if they walk normally they don't get the same bonus but if they just go all out they're good still. Yeah. I made a normal move or run. Yeah. That's an easy fix. But yeah. Good, good catch. See them still getting some play obviously Nurgle like, I mean add one to save role is still great on a four plus base save. They're fairly cheap. Still not not as they used to be too cheap. They were like 70 points previously. But yeah, I can still see them getting some play. Yep. 300 points for 30 block even. Mark from Slanesh just for the run in charge as a pinning unit. Yeah. That's interesting. So they get that plus one to save still you all defense them. They're two up. That'll be getting out on the opponent's turn. Absolutely. Pretty cool. And yes, in the opponent's turn you always get it. Yeah, absolutely correct. Yeah, that's a right ridge. I was just more interested by the fact that you just have it all the time. Yeah, because if you just slanesh mark them and then run in charge around it's just you're always you're just plus one to save all the time. Which is fun. Okay, Untamed Beasts still do the Untamed Beasts thing which is, you know, pregame move which always has some amount of value to it. So Untamed Beasts will always be have have some value because pregame moves are good. It turns out. There you go. The Dark Oath Savagers probably what you want to know what fair snake boys look like it's these guys. Yeah. Because they also have like three models that get plus one attack. Okay, for the Slaughterborn and the two proven. They have the little God speaker who can who can like maybe sometimes give you bonus command points. Okay. But they do they do a mortal on a six to hit and it's in addition for them. And if they gain control of an objective previously controlled by the opponent they get a five up ward. Right. But there are two attacks fours and fours no Ren 1 damage. That's and that's all the difference in the world. Right. They're the same exact points cost. There are 100 points for 10. But the comparison is so wild. Right. Like they're good. This should be like a good offensive unit. If you read that you're like, yeah, sure this unit comes in makes 23 attacks you know, six hit or mortal wounds in addition. Fairly. Yeah. I think it's just a slaughter born that gets the extra attack that proven two and every 10 models are proven. They get add one. Oh, you're sorry. Yeah. They're plus one damage. You're right. I'm sorry. Yeah. So but okay. Yeah. Still still fine. But yeah. So 21 attacks. Sorry. Not 23. But you know, like, yeah, this feels like the fair version of what that scroll should be. Right. And like, yeah, I want to like these guys. I don't they like they they're because they look amazing. Look amazing. They're almost there. I don't feel like they're quite there. Jordan, do they get over that for you or not quite? I think take out Splinter Fang and these guys are there. Right. Like it's the comparison that I think Yeah. You know, it was affecting our judgment of this unit. But like we just said that even, you know, we were talking about Splinter Fang, if they went down to two attacks, they're still really good. These guys are that but it's but it's been said it's in addition. Yeah. And they potentially are getting a five-up board. They have a better save. These guys are good. The board is cool. Yeah. Yeah, like I would just like to take that Splinter Fang scroll and just yeet it into the sun so we can all play the cool looking barbarians and just be like, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be. But yeah, here we are. Raptor X. No. Okay. We're just we're just scooting. Furies, like I said, battle line and leads to the first prince. And I love these little dudes. Yes, you get six of them, which kind of makes it annoying for coherency. But exactly what base size they're on is a mystery. Is it 25s? Is it 32s? Who knows? Well, the PDF says 32s, I believe, but they come with 25s. They're like they're like Schrodinger's base, you know, at any rate. But they have the they have the piss off in combat, right? So when you pick them to fight, they can just leave. And they're a 12 inch fly. So they like they will definitely get away from whatever is attacking them. They can just leave, just piss off. Like it's great. And they they're undivided. Like they they have a mark. It doesn't do much for them, but they do have a mark. Yeah, I love these guys. I've been running one by six. I've gone to now two by six. They're my staying on brand on theme on aesthetic theme instead of running cabal or, you know, like cabal, maybe are a little bit more utility, but they're they're fantastic. They look cool. Yeah. Price points. Fan. Yep. Oh, there you go. Sorry. It's the other way around. They come with 28s, but the PDF says 25. I'm sorry. There's still like some ridiculousness. Who knows? The mind stealer took a real sense that since the previous book, no longer a monster. He can still play a game with them to make them fight last, but now it's the bad way where you have to roll 2d6 against their bravery. On the bright side, though, it is at the start of the combat phase now, which is a much easier timing to make that happen. Like admittedly, the timing on the old one was kind of shippupy, right? So it's cool. It's just like it very much as usual is going to depend on what armies you're fighting, whether or not you ever make anybody fight last. There is still a lot of bravery 10 in this world, in this book. Yeah. Yeah, I liked you and I talked. It's a perfect sideboard piece if this game was all about, you know, two-less format or sideboard. It is equal to or better than bravery. So there's obviously a lot in the game that's seven bravery or less. And you just need to roll average to get value, but too many armies, as you said, have a bravery 10. So it's not going to see a lot of play, competitively at least. Yep. Let's see. The Fomoroid Crusher, he still does the little mortal wound thing where if you're trying to, you can pick one terrain feature within six inches. Model rule dice for each other unit within six inches of that terrain feature and any that garrison it on a three plus. That unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If it's picked, if the thing picked as a faction terrain feature or a defenseable terrain feature in the world was three or more, the terrain feature is demolished if it was defensible and the scenery rules in the world scroll cannot be used for the rest of the battle. A hundred points, also not a monster anymore, but like his use is in weird wonky depravity farming and other goofy stuff like that. That's how he gets used, so. I agree, Ridge. Why'd they kill the fun mini game? Guess the dice was like the best part about the minds of their fist fairings. It was so fun. Stop killing the fun mini games, GW. Zarshia bittersoul. This is where Mask of Darkness went. If you're curious where the teleport went. The problem is she can only use it on her own people. It can only target Congress ravagers. How do you say that? It was so close. Besides that keyword, it would have made this unit actually so interesting. Right, right. Like I would have been very interested in this underworld's warband if they hadn't locked the spell to freaking her unit of three chaos warriors. Like why? This could have been good. It could have been a contender. A great place to put a spell that they were phasing out from the main lore. Yeah, so then you got to take the dedicated caster. It's more expensive. Yeah. It would have been a commitment. It would have been a great way to still keep it in there. So you still had access to the thing. Like it would have been a great use for these very gorgeous models because this underworld's warband is absolutely fantastic. Instead they become my sorcerer lord, chaos lord, and do result into heroes. That's a lot of fun. That's exactly right. Hey, look at the right side. Best under like, what a great investment that underworld's warband is. You get four heroes out of it. So it's good stuff. Hey, there you go. Your other camera's back. It'll feed it. Oh, is that what happened? Got it. That's what happens when we go this long. All right. We'll talk about the endless spells and then we'll close this out. Eight full doom sigil. This thing still has the wackiest of timings. Okay. But I don't hate this thing at 40 points. I'm just going to say that. Yes, it can be dispelled very easily because it casts on a five. My answer is I don't care. Right. Like you can kind of just throw it out there. It's anybody slain within 12. And the plus one attack is wholly within 18. That's quite a big radius around the thing. If you think there's going to be some fighting in an area, you just kind of like throw it out there. And then as people, as things die, as models die, it just passes out a bunch plus one to attacks. And yes, your opponent gets to pick it half the time. It does it at the end of every turn. Okay. And it's about whose turn it is who gets to pass out the plus one attacks. But like, okay, it's fun. So and like, are people really going to waste a spell on dispelling this thing? If they do, I don't think I care that much is my honest answer. Like great. Good on you. Well done. Like it's fine. So I think Jordan. Yeah, I don't see myself taking a lot. Maybe in more casting heavy builds. I was going to say it's interesting, but it's not like groundbreaking or agreed. Yeah. Please don't misread me audience. I'm not saying like, this is the 10. You've got to include this. I'm saying like, yeah, 40 points. It's funny. Yeah. I've tried it a couple of times. I can't quite get it there, at least my experience so far, for a few reasons. To me, it's more of a defensive type piece in terms of the sequencing, like the timing of how it works. That is all a sequel. You're going to get more benefit using it as, okay, like my nine droplets, right? I'm often, I'm always having to go first. So I put this thing out. I'm facing iron jaws or mirror match. It's something that's potentially going to come in right and hit me. Okay. Well, I've got a couple of things. I could self-immolate. I could self-harm. Sure. Right through endless spells. So I could try to like kill whatever. To roll a couple of three ups, to get me some attacks, to hit back against what was coming in me, bottom of round one. My opponent then doubles me. Okay. I'm still getting the benefits, because that happens in my original turn, or even if it happens in their turn. Anyway, it kind of gets convoluted with some of these things. Yeah. The timing of this thing is annoying, yes. Yeah. Because it lasts until the player's next turn. So you could potentially have, yeah, these weird situations like, it's been dispelled, but you're still getting the benefit from it. It's only a whole other than six. So it's wonking in terms of the placement. It's got to be more than one inch away from everything. I don't like that. But yeah, I've just, I found it to be frustrating in terms of having it hit when I really want it, is the kind of the bottom line. Yeah. I get it. That's completely fair. And I honestly don't know if I take this over a triumph, but I tried it and it was okay. That's what I'll say. Good point by Ridge, too. Outside of Cavalist, where you have a lot more casts. Sure. You have too many things you want to cast already. Yeah. Totally fair. The Realm Scourge Rupture. Yep. It's 60 points. Like, it's cool because it still does what it used to do, which is, you know, it halves move characteristics and some mortal wounds, flash damage. It's not bad. My problem with it remains that it doesn't move quite as far as I would really want it to. I like that it casts on a seven. I actually enjoy that, which makes it a little bit more sticky. I just wish it went farther. That's really what it was. If this thing was like, if it started within 12 and then went nine, I'd be a much bigger fan of the Rupture. So. I've tried it out a little bit. There's something there. I don't think it's going to get played a lot. It's not bad. That's certainly a lot more attractive now that it's cheaper. It used to be like 80, 90 points, something crazy. Yeah, something the same. Yeah, like I said, there's the Jaws combo, which can be nice. Doing mortal wounds, just slowing your opponent down. Like you said, it's a little sticky, so you have to go. If you have to go first, cool. Put this out. Your opponent fails to dispel it. All right. Good. Now it's hitting them. You're going nine and nine. And then in your opponent's hero phase, you're going nine again. So you're hitting something. If you got Jaws out, getting leverage, maybe double tap Jaws as well. But in general, it's probably not going to see a lot of play. Yeah. And then the Demon Rift, it spits a bunch of mortal wounds. Okay. Cool. Great. There we go. We got it nailed it. Now, because you both did this and it's the end of the show and for those people who've stuck around this late, I want to make sure they get a little bonus action, but we're going to do this in five minutes. So we're going to be quick here. All right. So we got some sample lists for you. Jordan, take us through your Knights of the Empty Throne sample list you sent along to me. So yeah. So Knights of the Empty Throne, obviously talked about the 12 verandah that I'm enjoying. We're going to sit with fell spears as the general, let's initiate the five of rally to themself or the other. Verandah, which are two units of three with the fell spears or the other weapon about the fell spears. And this is like the first thing that came to my mind at a quick glance over the book, but it's all fast. It all hits really hard. You guys have kind of sold me on the fives of chaos nights actually after listening to you guys talk and even potentially looking at, you know, mixing up the marks a little more than I did here, but this is your blunt hammer spike list that's going to like going in, run stuff over. It's got really nice threat range with the red in charge and potential of demonic speed, good buffs from the spell casting, obviously the arcane tome on the sorcerer lord. Yeah, this is like not going to be it's going to be a strong build and it will run over stuff like Iron Jaws does. Yeah. It's not subtle. There's not, you know, the same amount of tech, but you still don't like the carp, carp, jack fighting at the start, activating the knights clearing screens and then you activate a unit of six bearing guard. You know, if you can catch your opponent out, open them up with your units of three bearing guard and then get in there with everything else. Like you can, uh, can run over some stuff. Yeah, I really, I really back the knights as two, two by five. And then I like, I just give the insorcial banner to the celestial ones. They also get the plus one attack on the charge. It's been my play, but you can do that to taste, right? But the point is, is that just like, I love it as a stabbing, being able to split them up into punch, counter punch, just, I found it so much, so much more effective. I watched Ten Knights accidentally get caught by a, in that first game we played, I watched Ten Knights get caught by, um, by Avelinor and it was like, well, there goes those Ten Knights. They're all dead now. Yeah, I think, I think maybe in, Knights of the Empty Throne, there's a little more room for it, because at least with the bearing guard, you have other big hammers. Sure. Where you can afford to maybe be tied up a little more because you have other stuff that's going to clear through. But just, yeah, the potential that, again, these, having three units activate first, and then, you know, the six bearing guard potentially activating twice. Yeah, yeah. It's very scary. That's great. That's great. Simple, effective. I love it. Okay, now let's talk about the not simple. First of all, I want everybody to look at this wonderful, clean, simple, easy to read list that Jordan sent me. And now, let's look at, okay, so now let's go over to Tyler's list. This massive text that he sent me earlier today. Second of all, this is War Scroll Builder style. I understand. Just a lot of text to put on a little page. Absolutely. Caballus, obviously. Grant's strategy, like I said, I'm not really sure. I win show of dominance because of the 20 chaos warriors hanging out in the middle, all four quarters of the battlefield. There are a lot of games probably going to survive pretty well. Triumph, bloodthirsty. This army wants to hit charges, obviously. So I've talked a lot about the three, you know, not over-investing in heroes with Caballus and in general. I've got 300 points, 100 some heroes, right? Two chaos lord, historic lord, both chaos lords retnude to the 20 chaos warriors to protect them on multiple fronts. General Master Magic to help with getting the battle tactic so that you don't screw that up where you're rolling on the Eye of the Gods table. He's got can of conduits to make sure that goes off. Demonic, you know, just kind of spreading around Demonic Speed. Any damnation is amazing for the always strike last. Oh yeah, this spell, this list is casting five spells. Some games, six, seven, depending on Eye of the Gods. So that goes to the Nash marks to have the leverage with the units of knights and then the chosen to give really good threat ranges, particularly counter-punching. And then, yeah, I mean, a lot of the, I think, mean potatoes of many lists that we're going to be seeing, right? 20 warriors, two by five knights, 10 chosen. And then setting the two by six furies could have easily been like an unmade and a Caball. Two by eight Caball. But I just want to go with this particular theme. So I've got two by six furies. They're good enough. Probably little units. And then Burning Head and Ravenic Stashing Jaws. Pump out some range mortal wound damage, which has been a really nice combo. Burning Head last game did nine mortal wounds and one hero phase. Like I love that spell for 20 points. Warlord, bounty hunters. 140 wounds, pretty high wound count, particularly because of all those furies. Yeah, they die easily, but pretty good wound count. Nine drops, playing a one drop list this weekend. So it is a lot of drops. You're going to be going first. But yeah, I've really been enjoying this list. I think as a, like a meat and potatoes kind of list that can compete well against a lot of different things. It's, it's pretty good reflection of what you can do with this battle. Nice. I like it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's keeping the heroes minimized to get a lot of the good meat on the table. Right. Between the big unit of Casper is the big unit of chosen still having two by five knights. Right. Yeah. It's keeping the hero pack tight. Yeah. Solid. Got these two little units, you know, we talked to the early, the start of the show, like basic attack, basic Warhammer, right? Put furies on an objective, then you're counter-attacking what comes in the furies. You're not overexposing your knights. You're keeping your knights in the backfield, right? With great mobility from corn, demonic power, a demonic speed from Salanesh hero, row command ability on the, on the run in charge. Yeah. So it, yeah, it's, it's been fun. Nice. And there we go folks. That brings us to the end. So awesome. Well done. Thank you everybody. Jordan, thanks for sticking it out. We did end up going longer than I wanted, but I appreciate it, man. You're a trooper. Great to have you on. We will definitely have you back. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe we'll do the powers combined show. We'll get both you and Ridge together on here. We'll just have a whole big party. And we got to get Carl on too. We haven't had Carl on yet. There you go. Let's, let's do it. We will just have the big party. We'll have the entire re-rolling ones crew on at the same time. We'll do it for some kind of, some kind of ridiculous anniversary. We'll get like, you know, a stupid number of people in here. And we'll just have the grandest of time. But for all of you out there, thank you so much for watching. We really appreciate it. Don't forget to hit like, subscribe if you haven't. If you want to support the channel, hey, guess what? There's a Patreon link down below. You can do that focused on your hobby and taking your next step on your hobby journey. If you want to support in other ways, there's also a merch store down there. You can make your vote heard for Team Tom versus Team Tyler. Again, that contest runs through the end of the year. You got a month and a half left to make your voice heard of who is the best co-host through the way we decide everything in society, capitalism. So, but as always, I appreciate so much, all of you watching. And as always, we'll see you next Wednesday.