 Now here's the story we talked about lobsters before and I have a real problem with this first of all I Meet but I prefer animals to human beings So that is a bit of a problem for me. There has been for many years my wife's a vegetarian She has been well last 40 odd years anyway but Vegans I find difficult to understand. I mean I used to have a small holding escape goats Chickens we had all sorts of horses, but various other things and and You know as long as animals are well looked after and Well, you loved all your beasts. I remember the guy did I mean you really love them. I didn't eat the goats by the way I did eat the chickens and I killed the chickens, but I didn't eat the goats Well, that's a bit, you know what well prejudiced against chickens Not really no because I mean you get eggs from the chickens Yeah, well I only ate the chickens. Oh, right only at the cockles don't they guard the chickens We only need one otherwise they fight like anywhere. Let's forget. Hold on. You keep a cockerel just to kill it No Chickens breed and then you get lots of cockerels and you grow them out You know I started with six chickens and I think when when I sold the place and moved on there was about 60 That's a big holding or a medium holding isn't it? It's just lots of chickens everywhere Now apparently vegans are getting a little Restless, I suppose they are now boys drinking boys dairy formalized gonna use a much stronger term And I might later they're blackmailing and attacking dairy farmers in particular James is a dairy farmer in Durham and he's gonna tell me the story James. Good evening. Welcome to the show Good evening. Well, thank you. That's all right now Whereabouts in Durham by the way is your farm? It's near a place called fetchfield. Oh So I know it. Well, I used to live in in well. I used to live in a place called Prada Which is a long time valley. Yeah, it's in Northumberland. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I know says field Now what has happened to you? What have they why why are they attacking you? You're a dairy farmer Of course the beans the beans stupid and silly and don't know what happens in it in the dairy farm because what they're trying to do is upset our Our business, you know, like putting false information on telly on the internet How we look at that? Yeah I mean, how how how have you been blackmailed? I'm just With red writing which is wrong really. Yeah. Yeah being Well, I called in the shop and I've been attacked by Nick Got swore on that Really? Yeah In a local corner shop. Yeah, well, why are why are these people attacking you in particular James? Because the the thing that we don't look after our cows, right? Which is wrong because we do we do every dairy farm in the country looks after their cows really well. I Suppose that the problem here. I mean, is it worth actually James a completely different story Is it worth being a dairy farmer anymore? But it seems that the the big supermarkets pay very little for the milk even even less than it costs you To produce it. Yeah Yeah, and we just buy back of them. We just say so yeah, and we sell our raw milk Okay, and and how long have you been a farmer? How long have you been on this farm? 10 years. Yeah, but I've been farming for 20 years. Yeah, and Dude, do you feel like giving it up or not? No No, never give up. Is there any cruelty in it? I mean because I know I've seen a vegan once told me, you know when a male calf is born It's basically destined to be Slaughtered and you know it cries the mother and all that. I mean this does does that not go on or no It doesn't go on. Well, how does it happen? I mean they get separated don't know. Yeah, they get separated two days after Then they get put in a nice bed with fresh straw But the mother cry, you know, he's obviously very upset the same whatever you separate an animal But you can see their point. I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, but you can't keep all those Can you really if you're gonna have milk? No, but this and what what what do you do veal anymore or not? No, I never touch it. No Stay with me James. Let's talk to Joey carb strong interesting name Joey is apparently a vegan youtuber and he's he feels very strongly about people who eat meat Joey, what's your problem? What's my problem? Hey, guys, I hear that you're an animal lover I hear that the other dairy farmer on the phone that also loves and cares for his animals And I think in his mind he generally probably does but his actions aren't consistent with that and you can your actions Have to be consistent with your belief of loving an animal. Now. Yes Carps are all separated from their mother in a dairy industry the boy calf the bobby calf I'm not viable to the dairy industry. So that will be killed at a very young age Okay, and the mothers after a life of possible impregnation having their children taken from their their whole life when they are spent They are sent to the slaughterhouse to have their throat slashed open and their body their suffered body will be eaten now 50% of the beef in this country comes from spent dairy mothers now I do not agree with vegans attacking Single farmers because the fight is kind of with trying to change the consumer trying to educate the consumer and get them Eight more ethical options Joey, let me just let me just talk about this attacking Dairy farmers because a lot of farm. I know farmers have a very hard life very often They're doing things that have been done the same way for years and years and generations You're not gonna stop people eating meat You're just not gonna stop it Wholesale, but you could make it better for the animals if every single abattoir Had more restrictions and they were all on CCTV and had more inspectors the whole time that make they make a difference You're talking about animal welfare. I'm talking about animal liberation freeing animals Okay, now, but you can't how can you free a farmer? You can't free a farm animal? Okay, so the reason these animals exist is because they're domesticated and bred into existence by farmers forcibly breeding them Okay, the reason we have 74 billion land animals on earth their bread to eat, aren't they? Yeah, they're bred to eat that doesn't change the moral value of the animal if I bred to eat dogs That doesn't change the moral value of the dog But we would never do that because we understand that dogs still paying stuff or want to live in the same way a cow chicken and Peek, okay What is the difference between a cow chicken and pig to a dog? We draw an arbitrary line and we discriminate we say these animals are condemned to slaughterhouses these animals We love and care for it's a massive hypocrisy and all I'm doing is educating the masses on it now The dairy the dairy farmer there was a blatant liar and I don't say that lightly when he said that The Bobby Carp's aren't destroyed in the dairy industry and that all the whole dairy industry looks after their animals We've got we've got footage of particular dairy farms not looking up. He didn't say they weren't no He didn't say they weren't there. They obviously they are they go for slaughter when they are a certain age Yeah, he said all dairy farms look after their animals. He said that Let me go back. Let me James James. What don't tell me you you look after your animals But when your cows reach the end of their milking lifetime you send them for slaughter presumably Yeah, and everything's up to everything's Yeah, that it's them when they go to the normie 10 year old There is there is more health and safety people in the other part the CCTVs Yep, but there aren't enough unfortunately because there are some abattoirs who behave appalling me We're being farming longer than what vegans been around Well, I think I've had there had been people who haven't eaten meat for thousands of years. This is James. Listen Do you have do you ever watch your animals being slaughtered? I Do yeah, and everything's not oh Wow, and does it never upset you at all? I mean I used to I said before I had a small holding up in Yorkshire And I I did kill my own chickens, which I didn't enjoy doing but I think I did it very well And I don't think they suffered But I don't the idea of killing animals and is pretty horrible, isn't it? There's more chemicals corn food for vegans net than it does on the farm on the farmland But cows when they're queuing up they know they're gonna be slaughtered don't they I've seen a video once and it was a cow And there was one hang on try just to make it new that was coming you're in favor of kosher killing so don't I mean, you know when I have the arguments it's sort of true You can't really argue that the life isn't sacred. I mean, you know, Joey answer me this will you I My wife is a vegetarian. She she eats cheese and milk She doesn't eat any animals. She eats nothing with a face, but she does like eggs milk and cheese. Yeah Just just answer answer me this I and I I prefer animals to human beings But I do eat them unfortunately. How how can we how can we? How can we sort this problem out without? Being too no, I mean there there's enough land for us to grow enough vegetables for us to eat We can have Eggs and we can have we can have cheese surely. No, well eggs and cheese condemn animals to the same slaughterhouse Is that the meat industry condemned? What if the animals were left to be free? Would you be all right with eggs and cheese then if the animals weren't that didn't happen? Well, no, they wouldn't be viable for the industry and we're still yeah, but say you know ethic I'm just trying to find out your ethics, you know what I mean My ethics are we need to stop exploiting sentient beings for their bodies We're treating them as products and objects essentially. They are not free We're breeding them into existence playing God with their lives and making money off of their backs and their suffering Okay, this is in my god when you breed plants together to make a nicer breed of tomato Plants are not sentient beings. Okay, they are inanimate Well, they're not inanimate, but they're intelligent, but they are not sentient Okay, plants do not feel pain. They do not suffer They don't scream and terror in a slaughterhouse a plant a carrot is not the same as a puppy dog That's not the same as a pig. Okay. Now plant with we're currently growing between Enough food to feed between 10 and 12 billion people But we're feeding that grain to fatten up livestock so we can have steak on our plate a murdered animal Now there's so many issues with this with this animal agriculture. It's all coming to the light now Now, why not just eat plant-based meat? Why don't I just eat plant-based alternatives? We've got plenty of them There's no suffering involved James, what do you think about that? Why don't you turn your dairy farm into into growing vegetables? You might even make more money that way. No, no, it's always been a dairy farm and it always will be The vegans talk a lot of rubbish Mm-hmm. The vegans always think they're no best for the dawn Do do vegans go up four o'clock in the morning to milk the cows We would vegans do vegans up with the the cows for the bud because we ring ups. We ring the vegetable straight way. I Mean Joey, it's a pretty hard job being a farmer Particularly being a farmer up in Durham up on the north where very little grows you wouldn't be able to grow many vegetables up there Hmm. I think when we're looking at issues of injustice meaning there's a victim and an oppressor Okay, the animals is a victim. They're the ones going to the slaughterhouse. It's a lot harder not now Animals are going to a slaughterhouse. They are so so we look at from the victim's eyes Okay, when we we're trying to work this one out and we say okay Who's it harder for now? The farmers are going to have to move into more ethical industries sooner or later more plant-based industries because people are working this out That all dairy cows are slaughtered. They're all separated the Bobby tops are all killed I mean people are working this out. I don't want to stand by it Joey James, they must all eventually be in peace slaughtered surely. Yeah, what when I have a good life? A knife in the throat is not a good life. Okay, that is playing God with animals lives I mean any other animal is that me after my dog if I looked after my dog and then I cut the dog up and ate it I'd be arrested people would think I was a psychopath. How how is that looking after the animal? You know, this is just insanity I mean, I don't I don't blame you you're brought up into a system that thinks farming is normal And and you're indoctrinated into a society that won't see animals. I don't blame you. I don't blame you at all But what's your job? What's your job? My job is to help animals. Okay. I'm not making money Job you did a job job is helping animals that end up in the slaughterhouse because of your work That is my job a full-time job My work is to put the food on people's tables, which they like Potatoes of food Why not why not potatoes? Why does it have to be it? You know in Yule and China they eat dog flesh They eat dog. Yeah, now now some people's job to cut up those dogs to stab them to death Now is that a moral job just because they're feeding people dog flesh? What is the moral being between a dog? We've been eating food and a cow. We've been eating meat for thousands of years So what slavery was around for 400 years that doesn't make it moral just because it's done traditionally Okay, now the reality is different to tradition Okay, just because it's legal does not make it moral either. There's a sense in being that people are forgetting in this situation Yeah, thank you. Okay, how do you justify it my friends? How do you how do you how do you make it okay to take an animal's life against their will to exploit them for their body when they Have no choice in this make it okay. Tell us that it's okay. You can't just declare it Well my job being found for nearly I'm nearly 40 are being found for 20 years Okay, all the cows are well look at well look after it All the cows are out in the summer. They get a fresh bite of grass They all have special e-names. They all get treated well and The problem is with vegans is the look at halla meat, which is totally not the wrong No, I'm not your meat my friend the meat from your dairy cows when they get shot in the head Okay, they shouldn't that animals should not be grateful because you let them out and give them some grass They shouldn't be grateful to be going to a slaughterhouse to be bulked under the head Okay, that's not looking after animals my friend looking after animals is leaving them alone and let them live in peace Joey, how do you feel about these religious people who have to say prayers over their meat? And then they think it's all well done if they It's no different to what this gentleman's doing. Okay, but it's worse. Isn't it in many cases because they don't them first How is it worth they both they both have beliefs that killing animals and eating them is okay One is using religion to justify it He's using tradition to justify it which is just as fickle justification. No, but I just want you to I'm listen I'm I'm making my mind up about this and the more I hear you the more I worry about eating meat But listen, how how can it be better to slit an animal's throat? Without stunning it first I don't I never said it was better. I said it's bad Okay, we want to get a vegan's prayer when they're gonna eat the lettuce. I asked that What what what significance does that have in this moral debate about murdering animals? Cuz vegans Does that have because vegans talk a lot of rubbish and they all should be banned from doing what they do What helping animals we should be banned from trying to end animal slavery and animal cruelty and animal murder It's not animal cruelty. They're well-looking after a Bolt gun in the head taking an animal's life when they have an interest in living is cruel Taking a human life is cruel taking a dog's life is cruel when they have an interest in living in continuing their life Can I ask you Joey? I I have a number of dogs. In fact Daisy may sitting down here is getting quite upset about you talking about eating dogs I must tell you I Do you Are you one of these vegan hang on just a minute? Are you one of these vegans who thinks that keeping any kind of animal as a pet is wrong? Okay, I'm gonna tell you vegan position on pets. We rescue dogs from being killed put down at the RFPC a Shelter, okay So the only life we could offer them other than euthanasia if they can't find a home is rescuing them and bringing them into our home We have no other choice for these animals They've been domesticated like other animals have so we rescue them Okay, we don't believe in breeding animals into a distance like breeding or not So we rescue the ones that are there and that companion animals We offer them the best life that we possibly can would you sterilize them then because you'd want to breed them out then Ethically, I don't think breeding animals into a distance is a good thing. I think domestication needs to be controlled I don't think domestication is a good thing. It's a man-made disaster. Okay now The dogs are not being sent to a slaughterhouse to be boltgunned in their head and have their flesh eaten like cows are Okay, or like pigs are just as intelligent All right. In fact, some pigs more intelligent than what? James, thank you very much indeed. Just one last question. I would like to ask you Jay What would you say to those those people who get very wound up by this whole thing those vegans who go and attack People like James who's doing the job he's done for a long time Yeah, and it it seems to me you are you are Okay with one kind of cruelty cruelty against human beings and not against animals than that Not at all I do not advocate for people to attack Farmers like James and I think I advocate against that and I actually pull people up on that and I really do But I think we have to look at we need perspective in this situation Okay, now vegans are angry like you would be angry if your dog was destined to slaughter by the you you learn dog eating Festival someone walked up to you with a dog in there with your dog in a sandwich you would be angry, too And so the vegans anger is justified this day, but I But I sorry Daisy, but I don't think it's okay for us to go and attack farmers because farmers are just supplying a Demand to consumers so that the responsibility falls on the hands of Consumers not the farmers the farmers are responsible in a certain way, but the consumers are putting them in work Aren't they so that's a good point. Yeah, James. Thank you very much indeed Joey. Thank you both very much This is a discussion that will continue, but please let's not have people attacking Farmers who are doing a job to the best of their ability, but I have a real problem in in in eating meat and Squaring that problem up with the fat. I look into Daisy May's eyes here, you know, and I think to myself What is the difference? I there's a bit of me that thinks if you are if you kill your own animal for your own food Then maybe that's okay, but we can't do that. We can't still cruel It's still cruel and there is Another part of me that says when I in fact I took I did the supermarket shopping today I hope you're proud of me. I am um and I didn't buy much meat and I Looked in the supermarket and all the meat the dead flesh. Yes is made to look as un Yes, I like it as possible. I don't want it to not to know it was an animal I like it as neatly packaged. You see I find that I find that and I know he's making a joke But I find that appalling Yeah, I remember I did a show once on a radio station. It wasn't this one and The whole program was taken up with complaints people had been complaining about a butcher's shop and the butcher's shop had whole Animals hanging in the window. I don't like that. I don't want to put me up for me Yeah, yeah, well and they'd complained that it was en route for a lot of children to go to school And they saw these dead animals hanging in the window and I thought this is excellent This is what kids needs if you're gonna eat meat. You need to know that an animal gave its life So I'm I'm not a vegan. I am I've got fish in my fridge Yeah, I've got that they're dead. I've got cheese and eggs in my fridge and I've been because I'm doing a bit of cooking at the moment You know, I've been doing lots of these tin soups. You know loads of beans and chili soups very nice Not sure if it's good for me. Yeah, very nice. Yeah, okay. Listen your thought zero three four four four nine one thousand pick up phone Give us a call. Are you a vegan?