 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my one and only co-host from his same location. He's been in for the entire time We've been doing this show. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends Tom when are you gonna get some paintings on that blank white wall? It's been seven years now, and you're still just nothing up there. I know it's just it's just empty It's empty. I mean my desk has tons of stuff on it Don't don't go down. Yeah, that's very nice. Yeah Gonna make everybody sick. I know it's gonna be great All right, well good. I'm glad Tom. I've seen your pictures of you hobbying this week. You've been you've been getting after it I'm proud of you all right tonight we're gonna be talking about what makes a good war scroll and I'm really excited about this conversation You know you and I talked a little about this as we were talking about show topics And I was like none of this is an idea that's kind of been gestating in my head for a while and like I've got something to say and we're gonna talk about it here Do you like my picks? Yeah, very much so yeah, so what are our picks for good war scrolls? Well, you'll have to stay tuned to find out but first of course the news Did Tom remember bring up the news it's been a slow week this week there's stuff What are you talking about? I got like 50 images to go through Tom No, I mean, it's it's generally been a slow week. There haven't been any really large announcements Mm-hmm. I mean we have this rumor engine you can you can show that we do it's an imperial. It's an it's a chaos It is a Warhammer 40k Traitor chaos night like the nights nights And it's also gonna be in the other video we have later Yes, so we have a 40k thing a thing that's fine and then But more importantly, let's talk about the new model So you want to start with a silhouette is that where we're starting with or you want to talk about the Story anniversary model the anniversary model. Okay, we have a clear picture of that So I'm really excited about this new AOS inquisitor guy. He's got this amazing sword I don't know what this I don't I don't know what his backpacker that symbols mean, but it's super amazing Okay, no, look, this is the 40k model. This is the cruel boys model. I have both of them up Are we for real over here? I mean are we for real like look this guy's fine. He's cool Like I like his bird. I like his bird friend. Do you know what it harkens out to me? It's the old the old gets War like boss yes with the squig like in front of it You know I do yes like the shield at a distance the first I was like does he have a squig and a bird now He doesn't it's literally just the shield, right? Yeah and This guy he's like whatever It's it's I mean seriously can we go back to this 40k guy this guy's incredible like I Want to I want this guy in my AOS army I just don't put the backpack on done and dusted and I mean this guy's amazing like this guy is truly amazing Yeah, I mean he is he's pretty sharp for those that were complaining I have moved my mic closer. So let's see if that helps you at all. There you go Now you've got the sound issues you sounded fine to me when I recorded, but this is the problem. Whoever knows yes Yeah, exactly. We did like four recordings beforehand just to make sure it was it was not gonna sound like trash And apparently it still does it's such a slave. We're trying folks. All right, so anyways sweet new 40k guy Very nice and competent cruel boy are the story anniversary models great Yep, your store is in February by the way, Tom. I want you to give me that 40k guy next month I know yes. I know yes. I've already like I swung by and got the the orkey Boss yeah, yeah, yeah, the the AOS one and my son was like you got me a new model for my army And I was like, yeah Good I did it's his army. There you go And then we got the new weird silhouette model preview stuff that dropped Yeah, so let's talk silhouette at first. I had thought this is gonna be a I thought it was a 40k thing because I thought I was just another chaos space marine because you can't see it in this image that they they have here that I borrowed But it's the the top of his staff is like an extremely old rumor engine One of the oldest is still unanswered rumor engines But no like this they the other one the other silhouetted image is quite clearly the 40k model because you can see it's a It's a dude in Terminator armor Indeed it is and so like Okay, this must be the AOS guy. He's got a big chaos symbol thing up on the top of his staff so Great, it's a chaos or sir dude new chaos or sir guy And he's the Warhammer plus model so fantastic. Oh, do you think so? Yeah, I mean yes. Yeah, I know so because that's literally how they announced it It's gonna be the two new models for this year for signing up for Warhammer plus. Oh Interesting. Well, so when do I order? I've already picked my if I were a plus. I've already picked that model, right? Is that how that works? I don't know probably maybe like re-up again and you get the next model I don't I assume something like that. I don't know weird Yeah, um, yeah, I would mind another sorcerer. Sure. Sure So he might have like a maybe he's got like a bird head and he's a cool zinch dude Maybe he's I don't know. He's got a corn. He has a corn Bloodletter skull type of thing on his staff So maybe he's a slinish sorcerer because they hate corn They do just say they do Or maybe there's a bunch of different bits that they can swap in and out because it's chaos Sure So that would be neat too Yes, a new model awesome. Obviously, we had the new Warhammer plus sneak peek. We've talked about that. Yeah, or no, we Yeah and then You know, I'll take number two on the podium for best model of the year shirt with the crab Yeah, yes, we got the crab up to number two the crab The internet and democracy is broken That's what they should teach us Let's be honest though Bellachor technically is an AOS model too. Sure Because it actually dropped in like it dropped with AOS books not 40k. Yeah, I'm claiming that I think we get this one. This breaks the streak of four years It's sort of a half streak. It's like a tie, but we didn't lose and that's what's important We didn't lose right and we got number two. So we go tie to number one and got number two. What more can we ask for? Yeah, I mean, you know number three was high Marshall Hellbreak Which I do think is an amazing model and trust me can be an AOS model if you if you put a little effort into it and But you know like it's it's just always gonna be the case that that's what it's like We're not at the top of the charts. It's funny because I did read the article where they showed the previous winners and My goodness It's just 40k on top of 40k previously. So I consider this a win a tie is a win in my book But yes, the crab. That's a silly thing. Obviously. That's not the second best model of the year like obviously It's a fun model. I like the crab, but he's really popular. Sure. Sure It's the Boatie McBoat face of voting like that's all I'm saying Sure. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a memeable I that's a good point. Hi Marshall. How Rick did spawn was also spawned a million memes as well. So also There you go I I sighed with battle barn. He said getting second wins the tiebreaker for first I Like the way you thank you. Yeah, I really like completely All right You want to talk about this video full of all the previews because I have screenshots out of the whole video Sure, let's do it. All right So the other thing they revealed was models lots of models, which by the way, there wasn't lots of models You showed like seven models. That's not lots of models in a year. Okay, like They're thrown a they're thrown a big deal and I was like So this is the releases for the first next two to three months Yeah, like the next week you get seven models, dude Like I want to be if you pull it back and show me a couple armies You know, what was lots of models the original daughters of cane rock-and-roll trailer when I saw that I was like This is lots of models. We're getting some stuff here. Okay. Yeah, this is less models than in that one army's reveal So get out of here with your lots of models any who We start with this obliterator weapon I just grabbed random screenshots like I had to go through the video and pause at appropriate seconds I think I got basically everything that matters. Yeah Like this is the obliterator hand probably a new weapon option on the big night or maybe new obliterators I'll take either could be either. It's fine Let's talk about this that's just a 40k thing sorry about your new night haunt boy your new spooky boy over here Spooky boy with a lantern. He's got his little thing. You can see his little ghostly thin hand So he's like it's so obvious. I don't mean this like it is so obviously night haunt which raises all kinds of questions to me Okay It makes me wonder if this is just a replacement for our spellcaster Who only came in the box? Yeah, like in the in the one box. I understand. Yeah And and like we like I suspect that it's not actually a new original model But it's this guy This guy right here That's all it has a broken arm whatever is the other Guardian of Souls Because we had two different versions of him if you remember we had the version that came in the box That nobody can get and then we had the store exclusive birthday version That had different rules that everybody wanted and then also we couldn't nobody forget and so I wonder if this is just an update of that Probably this is your one new Model with your night haunt look like that's one thing. That's the one new night Wonder if it's a swappable you're getting a new foot spellcaster that'll probably absorb some of the rules and concepts of that old model Yes, because he's got his little lantern. Yep. And so like yeah, that's probably what we're getting folks Like I'm tucked in to expect that our gifts our Christmas gift came early and that's a negation Sure until I proven otherwise my belief is that what a OS will get this entire year is a Good number of books, which I'm happy about that's what we need Written in the new way where they're thematic and appropriate and strong and all of that and it like Narratively top driven top-down design, which is what I want and along with those we get one model I think that we might see some endless spell boxes like it wouldn't be it would Like an IDK like Friday K would surprise me if they got their own endless spell box Maybe but like so I see where you're saying, but I all I'll I'll give those a strong maybe at most, but anyways, maybe indeed. Here's your new guy I think we'll get a new I think we'll get a new army later this year though Yeah, sure until that's I'm saying until we eventually get the new army Everything like is just gonna be book one model book one model book one book one model or a book a dual box with a new model In each yeah, yep. Yeah, yep. Yeah, I Did that the end fires? Sure. Yep, exactly All right, this is This one is a very fuzzy image, but it's an elf guy. It's a it's a new Eldar guy You can tell when it spins around This is a chaos Again trader night. This is definitely a trader night. They spin around and show you more I'm hoping it's like an armature sized night because I don't have like a cast armature sized kit So and that's kind of what their pipes look like the that is to say the good guy's pipes that that very much feels like the armature size pipes So hopefully that's what it is There's another image where you see like a weird bird or something on top of spikes poking through his shoulder. So cool But it's definitely we're definitely getting a cast trader night kit The this bone thing this this bone stuff here this one that looks like a bunch of bone I don't know with a spine Excited me for a second until I realized it was Malgen raw or whatever his name is the Reaper Phoenix Lord and I remember fighting that guy back in like 1998 I was playing against this this dude. I think yeah, I thought that was the OBR Like I thought that was the OBR one-off and then then everybody They continue spinning it you see a shoulder pad as well. I'm so excited for a second And like it's very obviously an update of that model He's a cool looking dude. He's a he's a cool character. So that's fine But yeah, it's the dark Reaper Phoenix Lord Malgen raw or whatever. I'm probably mispronouncing that because who knows Conversion conversion potential or possibly you could take some bits off of it for a OBR Look, I'm just excited that That Calvin will finally have a model. So that's nice. That's a joke just for Tom All right next AOS thing so the This this clearly Daughter of Kane, what is this Tom? There's a sister slaughter, right? It's a sister of slaughter So what is this? What is this Tom? Maybe I mean that's what it is This is this is literally the rumor engine from last week by the by I know us I know us. Yeah, I Mean, so if it's a sister of slaughter. Yes, it looks like one. Yes It then it's probably an underworld warband. Okay Like we had one daughters of Kane warband. Yep, right, uh-huh, but it was all witch-elf based wasn't it? There were no sisters in there. Was there? Yep Then what this probably is is this is some limited release model, right? Okay, this like some some people think it's dark Eldar But I mean it's literally like the hilt of that whip by the way is identical to the hilt of the daughter's whips. Yeah, yeah, yeah That the dagger is similar. It is but the base of it has the same like there's a lot of the same iconography Here as with standard daughters of Kane. Okay. Hmm. Somebody thinks it could be a cursed city hero Could be like an expansion. Sure. It could be that Mmm, that's a good call. I like that call. Could it be Tom a Daughters of Kane single hero for a Daughters of Kane release. I Mean, I'm just saying is this a hero for that. I Mean, it could be I could be a sister's of a sister Hero because we don't have any of those right. I mean if it is let me just say I'm really angry I just I was thinking about it today. I was like I was like thinking about the one Hero slash release a book thing when I was thinking about the earlier guy the Nighthawk guy And then I've scanned through these images and I was like wait a minute We don't have like a sister a slaughter hero Hmm. No, I mean it could be but I hope it's a cursed city expansion hero. That'd be cool GW you're fired If it is because the real thing that we all want is we want a canary hero Sure, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah Like give us a canary hero. Don't give us a stupid sisters of slaughter hero Because we have a slaughter queen which is kind of a sisters of slaughter Yeah Again, like this would be yeah, okay. Sure. Well, I guess we'll see Tier knit thing cool Like there's a bunch of different There's a bunch of quick shots of a tier-knit thing some big tier-knit creatures So I don't know tier-knits enough to know what any of these things are Some other 40k guy, I don't know what he is But he's a 40k guy because the image before this you see the top of his staff And it's like got the hazard stripe tubes on it. So Oh my goodness Slaughter hag That's what that was just said in the chat That feels that feels like too dead on to be wrong Like doesn't that feel like what they would name that? Yes, that does feel kind of appropriate like originally if it comes out. It's that I want full credit assigned here to To Yes, because you nailed it you nailed it. I'm not claiming credit. I'm saying this this this is absolutely This gentleman in the chat. Yes, exactly. All right All right, so some 40k dude. Okay fine, whatever Can I take a moment here to talk about how bad I feel for the every metal paint team? Okay Who pour a lot of work into their their into their craft and try to do a really good job at getting models painted to a very high standard and Then some jerks show up and take pictures of these things at like Ultra close range and show every brush stroke and inconsistency in the model And I'm just like oh man, what a let down that has to be Yeah Yeah So Yeah, at any rate, I just I was watching this I was looking at all this and I was like jeez That really is terrible to have to have your work photographed at that kind of level None of us would want our paint jobs photographed like this. None of us No one unless you're like Dave Caldwell He's the only human on the planet who can take pictures of signatures this close and it works. Okay All right So who's this guy Tom is this is another angle of your knight on hero dude The dude with the book mr. Book book and candle man you see a candleabra in the time in the image before this Yeah, maybe maybe I You know part of me still wants it to be Because it's like the priestly guy, right? Mm-hmm Yeah, you see the candleabra. He's got the book That's clearly open with like the sort of illuminated script as it were, right? I I mean, I think so because that still has the ghostly hand, right? Looks like it looks it. There's looks like there's some ghostly crap going on. Yes Because it looks like a ghostly hand is turning the page If it's not I would love for it to be Like a priest of sigmar, but that's just not what that like it looks like that forearm is super like sickly Ghosty. Mm-hmm And it looks like the robe on the bottom left corner is teal like like how they like to paint So I say all of that to say, um, it's probably just the same ghosty point Okay, that's what I'm that's what I'm guessing sure Uh And then the new avatar of kane for eldar Yeah, yeah, like the worst kept secret Maybe it's two night hawn heroes tom Maybe we'll break trend and you'll get two heroes in a book Replacing like the replacing of the guardian of souls with nightmare lantern or whatever. That's just a freebie Or maybe he has like an alt build with a book Well, I don't I have not encountered one of those guardian of souls that have not had a broken arm Sure, sure. So like the way that it was sculpted. It's just inherently broken. Yep So Willard that would be a bloody hand. That would be a red, uh Hold on. Which hand is that? No, it's his left hand, isn't it? Yeah, it's his left hand I was hoping it'd be a red right hand, but no, it's not. It's his left hand. No, definitely left hand Doesn't work as well. All right. So anyways, there's stuff. There you go. That's everything in the video What do I what did we learn from the video 40k has got a lot of models coming son? And uh, it's time to lower your expectations for aos Get ready to start buying books. Yeah Yep Yep, uh, all right Uh, what other news items do we have anything else? Uh, nope. Okay, then let's go to pick of the week Tom start us off. I know you have a pick here I I've already put it in the notes and I gave it to you to be the freebie win here Oh, did you? Yes It's it's it's what we were all talking about somebody who came back after a long absence Has been on a similar path to yourself Did did somebody did somebody come back? Oh, yeah. No, I'm kidding. Uh, yes, doom and darkness is back folks He has a wonderful video. Check it out. It's great. Um, dude, uh, when I Went through a rough season earlier this year and he reached out to me even when he wasn't producing content. He reached out to me Uh, he's just he's wonderful and I want to just spruke his new stuff Yeah, because he's back and he's and he's back like this is just the tip of the iceberg There's a lot more coming folks. Sure You know, it's funny because he talked about one of the things he mentions in his video is like It's funny because one of the things he talked about is the hobby being an escape for him and you know to sort of It's the easiest thing to do and he was sort of using it as an escape mechanism And he said, you know step back from yourself and you know stand behind yourself and look at yourself and think Is this the way you want to be spending your life? I have a simple answer to you doom. Yes Yes, it is. I am living my best life doom Okay, I have zero regurts Leibniz is best of all possible worlds is being lived right here in this chair homie Uh, but that's but the point that he makes is But that's you. It's exactly everybody. Everybody has to make that. Exactly. Exactly. Everybody has to make that evaluation That what what I think the thing that he stumbled upon was he was hobbying and playing How how he felt somebody else how they Morphously, right how how he thought they Would want him to be that's exactly right. Yes And that's clearly wrong. And so I I support him 100% like you have to find It is a hobby and you have to find your speed your way of engaging You know, you don't if like painting 40 hours a week isn't appropriate for you Then don't do it if playing a ton of games if going to a bunch of tournaments isn't for you If it's causing you to be not happy then don't do it like it should be a thing that creates happiness He talks a lot through all that in the video. So it's very good It's just kind of a rant of him discussing where he's been and you know, sort of where his thoughts are at And I thought it was very healthy. So yeah, good Check it out. I highly I highly recommend it for myself I have a different pick of the week my pick of the week is for the honest wargamer rob And it's with the iron guttsman And I really liked their discussion Um, it's a lot of bagging on seraphon which I fully support. So if you are a seraphon player, sorry You know, that's not great for you But hey, that's life But it's just a really good conversation. I thought iron guttsman hits on a lot of points I think he's a very insightful member of the community and I really like the show. So there you go Uh, all right Uh, so tom, let's talk hobby time. Shall we? Uh, hobby time You've actually been working on stuff tom. What you've been working on? Dude, I have I am it's been fire this week um, I got all of my army for Havoc, no for holy wars Which is about a month and a half away. I got it all built and based Or not like built and then primed Zenithal And then all of my colors laid down with my airbrush. Most of the bases are done except for my crystals Um, man, I've been killing it like Just just plowing through models. I love it. Um, you're back in Back in and so uh, that should be done For like I even I even did a an army terrain piece this week. Um and uh Yeah, so that all got done and I'm happy about that and then um What else did I work on? Oh, and then I went to the club this weekend Uh, one of one of the local stores, uh, had they had 12 000 points on the table that came and uh Just spectated and and and piled around for a bit and then met some new folks out of richmond Which is about 15 20 minutes away from here. Um where I live and uh went and like hung out at their club On sunday and went out on monday and it took negash for a test run and taught uh The one of their guys plays uh From primarily like super competitive 40k. It has been thinking about getting into aos And so he'd been playing some aos, but not not kind of meaning play. Uh, and so he Uh, he was really he's a big elf player So he wanted to do lumineath to give them a shot and I was like, that's not the right place to start But let's do it So he took uh, uh, we built a list for him and uh, we rolled some dice Uh, negash is brutal as predicted. Um, and then uh tomorrow i'm doing it again So i'm headed out there and i'm going to be uh rolling dice with him. He's going to give docket a shot And uh, i'm going to let him grind on negash a little bit more. Nice. Good. Good. Awesome Uh For myself Uh my hobby time has been incredibly busy I painted up this little girl here. This is out of the um What is she from? She's from red harvest. There you go. She's one of the red harvest barbarians um, and this is painted up for a Tutorial for a video that i'm working on Uh, and lots of fun like fun stuff there I wanted to I want to say thank you to everybody who responded to the change video to the the sort of new year's day video Um, so many good ideas there. It was really Really helpful. It gave me a huge list a lot of things to think about Uh, I appreciate that the most common Comment was fix your audio. So i'm i'm working on that. Um, the And the hunt for artists goes on i'm looking at a bunch of different people right now It's just challenging because there's sort of a very particular style sense I have that I want the the show to have and the channel to have And so like not everybody has that style that's not in any way a judgment on their art Most of these people are that are sharing stuff with me are totally awesome It's just like it's not necessarily the voice So I painted her she's done and then I have to put that tutorial together Uh, I've got this big guy Uh, ready to go He's gonna be for a video as well Uh, Chattacar the beast Uh, he doesn't have his little dudes on the base because I don't like the little dudes I didn't like him. I just wanted him alone I love those sick of ants. Yeah, I don't like the little dudes hanging out on bases I like I like the model Want this guy Chattacar needs no one else. He's ready to rock so, um So I've got him painted up and then, uh, I got sent another thing that I can't talk about yet That'll come out next year It's like right here And uh, but it's not a gw thing So there you go. Oh Yeah, it's somebody else's thing Um, I'll figure out when I can talk about it, but it it'll be it'll be I'll record some fun stuff for that as well Nice, but it's not a gw Uh, man, there's so much stuff on my on my table too. I've just got like too many big projects, man. It's it's There's more you got a board you got a board to build for next month too. And and I need to build a stupid board. Yes um Okay, so at any rate, uh, lots of hobby time. I'm going to be a very busy hobby time. I'm really trying to uh to just like Work on a lot of tutorial stuff like that's actually what I'm trying to grind on right now is like in these paint this stuff with a strong focus on uh Making tutorials out of them. So I can work on getting making better tutorials like experiment with stuff, right? So I'm like trying to two for one my hobby if that makes sense Right as these things are all hobby videos My goal is to like I'm trying to work on them Yeah So there you go, um The uh Uh Somebody said infinity. No, it's not infinity. Um, I I played Infinity like back in first edition. It's fine. It's not a game for me Uh, I don't Particularly love the models. I don't particularly I really don't like the game itself That's not a judgment. It's just not a game for me like again. I think it's a good game I just think it's not a game for me Um, so sorry everybody. Um, but I did I played infinity for a while. I I had a uh a hacky army So there you go still do Um, but there you go. They've been retired Okay, uh, awesome. So that's hobby time. Tom Shall we get into the main topic? Let's do this. All right Okay, so main topic What makes A good war scroll that is the question that we're going to talk about today Uh It's a legitimate question Yeah so I'm going to Flip to my summary page here because I kind of have a couple of them Okay, and I'm going to I'm going to lay down a thesis. Okay Okay, and then we're going to test that based on what I picked as uh war scrolls what you and I picked Uh, sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly So here's my here's my thesis statement that I sort of set about with this right one Points are an imperfect mechanism to represent a unit's value and their adjustment cannot solve issues with many Perrin's most war scrolls Yeah, okay That's number one Uh, and I think this is diametrically opposed to how a lot of people think about this Like I've seen some people who I respect Say things like Well, you know, there's there's got to be a correct points to make people to make war scrolls to make a lot Most war scrolls in the game worth it And I just I just don't agree I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the game It's a paradox because if you make something too cheap like we've talked about this with the um, the big, uh Whatever his name is the cyborg or whatever. Yeah Like back when there was like, yeah, I sure hypothetically like 75 points or whatever for like a 13 wound monster But at that point like yes, there is a point where it's takeable But you're not actually like you're going to be spamming this thing Not because it's a good war scroll But because of your points to hit point ratio and like forcing people to grind through those that meat Like that's not that doesn't make it a good war scroll. Yes. There is a Exactly. There is a certain level we could like take war scrolls down to like, okay You might say well cygoras are still that behemoths. So they're going to be limited to four in your army, right? So even if there were 20 points each would having 80 points of four of them actually mean anything No Probably still no But nonetheless, that's obviously never going to happen. That's stupid. They're one They're never going to set points at low two It then creates a very bad situation for them when they redo the war scroll and redo the book And it jumps up to 250 points where they rewrite the war scroll and think it's worth it now Maybe they're right. Maybe they're wrong But then people are going to be much more angry when we when points go way down and then slingshot back up Like we all get angry at that Okay, and and everybody's bought four of these cygoras for their armies Yeah, exactly. And then all of a sudden they have to shelve them like it's a nightmare situation And just think of what happened with blight kings if you want proof in the pudding I think blight kings are exactly correctly pointed at 250 now. I think that's where they should be I think they're right at that Probably right. They may be a touch high But when I say touch like not more than 10 percent line, right like they're you know 10 15 points 20 points maybe too high Maybe maybe like but I think they're right in the right area But the problem is people like people have just been like, oh, that's a nightmare Why because they were so cheap at one point doesn't matter what they do now And people have like 40 of them on their shelf I have 20 and I love the number that I have Right like I have 20 painted and I'm like, I don't want anymore. That's great. Yep And so that's the challenge, right? There is just some floor That we can reasonably adjust points to You know, okay, and So like with things like gifts and beasts and stuff that just have a book of bad war scrolls All right There's just So much we can do with points because we're going to hit some kind of reasonable floor Where all of a sudden it just becomes a nightmare experience where the the concept of the point system snaps And suddenly you have like 500 models on the table. I'm being hyperbolic, but that's the point, right? I mean, but we've seen this before with people running like what 20 cockatrice armies or whatever Like like we've seen this occasionally with these spams like so we where people are doing these spammable things I mean people like even the bolt boys or whatever, you know people deploying like 18 units of bolt boys and three heroes or something Right. Yep. All right. So and they are the reason I say that like Do I think 30 pink horrors are good enough? Yes I think they're I think they're still quite a good unit even at their adjusted points cost I think they're finally pointed in the neighborhood of correct. Maybe even still slightly low They're still the best points to wound ratio in the game Yeah, um, yeah Okay, some more scrolls will have value and be played at a wide variety of points Because they either a have good base rules regardless of other pieces, but I'll call modular power b Fill a role necessary in the army, but I'll call functional power or c Pair with something to perform above their weight class synergistic power Okay Right. Does this make sense to you tom these three things I've identified Basically modular usefulness functional uh utility in role filling or Unreasonable synergy Right Like let's take one of the worst units in the game gore Okay, a couple people in the comments have been talking about them Like sure gore are functionally at the moment one of the worst units in the game They have no role. No nothing at all, right I'll just I'll just get closer to the mic for those that want me to turn me up Yes, okay, so let's assume for a moment That I'm just going to imaginarily rewrite the the the beast of chaos book here. All right Gore remain exactly the same. They are what they are Okay, nothing on the gore scroll nothing on the gore scroll war scroll changes Okay Yep, but instead Uh Now we'll keep the shaman's ability to make them go faster and all of that kind of stuff That's all all all any existing synergies are still around Yep, but in addition There is now a unique command ability That gives gore a Five up ward only gore not on gore not best of gore just regular gore a five up ward There is another unique ability that happens on a three up that makes it so every Uh that they get plus one attack and every six to hit triggers a mortal wound Okay And then we'll throw in a third ability that is a teleport only for gore A gore a port Okay, I was gonna say a gore bush, but sure Okay, also good. That's solid um So Like by point is all of a sudden like even though that war scrolls crap And by the way, let's hold them at the same points They are not like 70 points for 10 or something, right? Yep. Yep. All of a sudden you'd be like, yeah gore good Right, right and if you do it like my three exact buffs pick your own three buffs Pick your own skink like synergistic nonsense buffs because skinks are terrible On their base scroll, but skinks are great Because of their synergistic power. That's my point, right? Right. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right Okay Like iron drakes are good But telegorts. Yeah, that's what it is. I'm sorry everybody. It's totally telegort Telegort. Oh, oh, that's good. That's pretty good one. Uh, yeah, so Uh, hey, like iron drakes are good But iron drakes with a rune lord are really good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Right. Okay. So this is my premise, right? When they can interact with other war scrolls Uh That they can become synergistic autumn. I'm not actually recommending this as a fix I'm just using it as an example to explain how much synergistic power can matter It can take synergistic power can take something that is the literally one of the worst roles worst roles in the game and make it Played in every bar me because it's so become so strong. That's all I'm meaning to say I'm not meaning to let's actually fix it. Sometimes Sometimes scrolls are played not because they're good. Sometimes scrolls are played because they synergize well with other things And become that's the and they become good. Yeah because of the other things not because of what's inherently on the worst role So, okay point the third Good war scrolls can go unplayed if pointed too high But bad war scrolls can never be pointed at a value where they will be played recently Okay, yeah, unless unless gw drops the floor out from there and then somebody spams them But even then you're not actually playing the war scroll. You're playing bodies Yeah, you're just playing spamming for everybody's Yeah, you're just spamming things to make people grind on because we've gone so far off of the normal ratio Of points to wounds, right? Yep. Okay. Yeah So what I mean by this is points don't have to come into this discussion from this point on because the I mean we'll reference it occasionally, but my my What I'm trying to say here is a good war scroll you can define a good war scroll Absent points because a good war scroll can only get pointed out of the market Right, but a bad war scroll can never get pointed into the market Not reasonably right not reasonably. Yes okay, you know if Let's take let's take something that I think everybody would agree is an amazing war scroll Sentinels All right I can't imagine sure. I I almost I almost picked those as one of my five. I almost did and I was like No, everybody's gonna, you know complain about sure. Okay. Sentinels are a good war scroll, right? They're solid. Yeah. Okay. They cost a thousand points for 10 of them now Are we ever going to see anybody play sentinels? No, okay Of course not, but that doesn't make them not a good war scroll. They're still a good war scroll Rules wise it's just they've been priced out of the market Right, right. But you put the same things at 150 and everybody's like i'm a buyer. Exactly. Yeah, exactly Okay, so that's my thesis Yeah All right So let's talk about the bad example. I want to start with a counterpoint um You ready so before we get into the good. I want to do bad Sure, sure And as the bad scroll I have picked here tom The steam tank The non hero steam tank, okay Like just The stank your good old fashioned Nothing special about it Steam tank All right. Yep. All right Now This is a pretty terrible war scroll All right This thing is 195 points tom It's almost 200 Yeah, okay It's 12 wounds on a three up save It is a not a hero as I mentioned. This is the non hero one Right, it's 195 195 Yep But then eight bravery, which doesn't matter because it's not a hero It has no monster actions because as though it tends to fill a monster like roll. It is not a monster It's a war machine Which only hurts any of the monster doesn't come for any of the monster actual capping things either for objectives. Correct Correct. Now sure when it dies, it doesn't give up a point But okay, it also can't choose to like fight at the top of its profile or nor can I get bonus points out of it Which as we've seen Is highly valuable in this in this go round of the ghb Yep. Yep It does basically no damage So it averages less than one damage shooting outside of eight inches Okay, uh, compare that to 10 zentals, which are less than this. Sure. Sure Compare that to 10 any shooters. It's ridiculous. It's not even close. Right? Yeah No ability to use a command ability. It cannot use a command ability. It's not elite Right. So you gotta have a hero around to support it It counts as two models not five Like most other monsters And it has no functional role in the army Right. And it's so many pointed out in the chat. It's over 12 looms. So it can't get cover. Correct. Um, it's not a hero So it can't get look out, sir Yep. Yep um So Like this is a bad scroll It has almost no synergy in the army Correct. There's like it synergizes with its own hero and then a couple of things in like tempest eye or something But it has minimal synergy, right? Yep So it can't It can't win on functional power It's certainly not modular power because it doesn't you can't just send it off on its own and have it do something And it's not synergistic power. It fails all three tests Right. Right. It's funny how you add the hero keyword to it Are you going to do that next? No, I did because I I I I do think that this thing has value when it's the hero version Right, and that's what's so funny is that adding the hero keyword actually does like a lot of things to this, right? Right like a shocking amount of things when you add the hero keyword to it, right? Yeah, because all of a sudden it can use command abilities on itself and it can heroic recovery and it like there's things it can do Right like it. Oh, it also adds another ranged attack. That's kind of decent Yeah, well, I can get us it can get an item so you can give it a spell. Yes I can I can give it a spell book so it can be a caster Which having a three up save caster in uh, cities of sigmar is actually pretty valuable right like Yes, it completely changes the the whole thing, but my point is like Can I can I make a just a small point? Yeah. Yeah hit me Thus is my argument for the black coach continued fair enough No, absolutely But but my point with the steam tank is it's just terrible because it doesn't do enough of something Now we're going to actually come later to a counterpoint because you sent me a counterpoint at the steam tank You can design something like this That is a good war scroll. They just didn't hear this thing is ultimately a relic Right it it got its original rules and Basically, they haven't changed and they've been like these were Barely passable In a os 1 and they haven't changed sense and it ain't working now right Right, and so yeah, okay All right, and yes, if you add the key where the hero key where it takes up a hero slot, but okay cool I got six of those. I'm like I'm not I'm not hurting for that That's fine. All right So good war scroll potential traits Uh, here are things that I think are potential traits. Tell me what you think of these tom one They use the game rules in a useful way Yeah, okay, like in other words by using they they in some Way interact with the game rules To lead you to success in the game, right? That could be high damage That could be ability to hold an objective to survive to move whatever right all these kinds of things or or just Interact they might have some way that they act in a sort of orthogonal fashion So think sons of Emma right their allegiance ability is it would be example of of using the game rules in a useful way, right? Right. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah, okay They have some role in the overall army like you there's something you put them on the table to do besides exist Yeah, right They can fill a required capability in an overall strategy damage objective control mobility unique control enhancement element durability I didn't say chaff but chaff could be another one Right. Yep. Oh, I mean some of my picks were chaff. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Mine too And then of course the last reason they they could be quote-unquote good Now what I mean by good here. This is where we got to talk about two different versions of good, right? good In the sense of like efficient to play Not good as in like this is how war scrolls should be written Right. That's these are two separate discussions, right? I don't think busted war scrolls should be written But yes, they could just be busted Uh ha ha sentinels Right. Yeah. I mean sentinels are a good example, right? They're just right and it's and like in the reason why is because A ability on the war scroll the whole war scroll isn't busted There's a ability that stands out Well, two that really stand out that together just Make a mess of things sure and then it only gets worse because that is a synergistic unit as well in certain ways, right? Right. All right. So this is the kind of traits. These are the markers, right? I think some people have asked asked us before in the comments like hey, I'm new How do I tell what's a good war scroll look for this kind of stuff, right? Like ask yourself the question. What is this thing doing when I purchase it? What is it doing? Does it have a role? Is it filling some functional purpose besides existing? Yeah, right There's all kinds of good content that needs to be made here for the warhammer community Yeah, oh willard said good rules versus good for the game. Thank you. That's yes exactly What I mean. That's perfect. Thank you willard Okay, all right. You ready to get into some examples? Yeah, I'm excited. So tom you and I each put in some examples Yeah, did we pick any of the same war scrolls? No, no, we did not good Yeah, it just worked out that way. So there you go. All right Next or first I guess examples Frost heart phoenix Tom this was your pick I listed the important the things that I thought were important down here Strong word save. So he's defensible Right. Yeah powerful debuff adds to the defense and adds to defense of your overall army in his neg one to wound aura strong command ability in a re-rolling wounds That synergizes with another good unit And another good scroll and like a very high mobility Yeah, um, what else? He's also an He's an independent operator And so he doesn't need anything else for him to do his job And so he can run off and do his own thing or he can stay in the cluster and And synergize with everything else. It's already there Technically he's functionally broadcasting A like when used in conjunction with phoenix guard, he's also making them battle shock immune. So there's synergy going on But there's also independence He's a hero so you can give him an item you can make a spellcaster like you can do a bunch of other things with him as well um Yeah, so he just he and he does he has good solid damage for a 300 and 350 point model Right. I also included the uh, the I said either the phoenixes Like I think both of them have a roll now. Does that make sense? It does. I think the frosty is clearly everybody's pick for like the hotness, but yes Sure, I agree. I think they're both good scrolls Yeah, like I ran the fire phoenix This fall to good effect like I didn't have a frost and it like it it did work so, yeah Yeah, I mean when I look at this it's a classic example of a strong hero scroll Right. Yeah modular independent actor with a good utility debuff or like good utility debuff or buff For the things around it Well, both in this case in the battle shock immunity if you want to operate with his friends or debuff if he's operating against the enemy, right? the Then then the mobility to be where he needs to be like it's everything you want any hero Yeah, right. Uh, yeah, so coach asked if this is good without the hero the answer is no And the reason why is because he loses the ability he suffers then from all the problems that the Steam tank does I mean, he's still a monster, but like he can't issue commands and all that but even more Offensively he loses the word say When he when he's not a hero and he loses the synergy with other phoenix guard in the battle shock community and all that Yeah Yeah, so like the answer is when he's not a hero. No, he suddenly not He's not a he can't actually do what he needs to do Yep Agreed it's If he was 100 points cheaper, you know like that is something you could fix with points if he was cheap enough Yeah, because it is still a monster and it does still have Average enough damage. I mean monsters on their own. We've talked about it like non hero monsters have a challenge in the game They they should almost never be up over 200 points a non hero monster, right unless they just do like Well, I'm not going to take that position Uh, the position I'll take is that non hero monsters could earn their place by being very fast or hitting very hard And being reasonable hammers that would actually earn their place like 300 points of a Non hero monster needs to hit like a 450 point monster hero Basically Okay, something like that. Like that's just a rule of thumb, but you know, that's that's the kind of thing We're talking about here. Yep. I agreed completely Um because they aren't doing anything else That's it. Yeah, they are they're simply doing damage, right? That's correct Okay, um And if you make them do something else too much you get uh, you get sons of badmont So you got to be careful Okay Who none of which are going to show up in this show as we'll discuss later Here's my first pick tom. Here's my hero pick ready My hero pick the lord relic tour Tell me Tell me about why this is a good war scroll. Okay, let's talk about the lord relic tour The lord relic tour is a great example of what you can do with simple rules Okay like I think that there is a predilection that like Scrolls have to be complicated to be good And that is just not the case Okay, this guy all in all is a pretty simple scroll He is a six wound hero with a three up save which is strong right But he is a priest He is strong in his chosen role of being a priest Because he has built in plus one to chant which is an incredibly potent ability When you cast on a single d6 like that is a very shockingly huge ability He takes the universal command ability extremely well of high priests So he's got some synergistic power right as well as functional power in doing his role. Yeah Um He has solid base prayers written on his war scroll both of which have some use so he has He has an actual green bar like a green beam. He can heal people And his other prayer is mortal wounds, which are generally always good with a built-in neg one to hit on the backside right, yeah, so functionally Extremely useful in the army. His only downside is of course that he's relatively slow He is a little guy who walks around on foot at like five inches, right? Right, but that's even not bad for a foot hero. Like I'm running dwarves all the time which are four inches So sure it's fine. He I mean he does have access in storm gas to a prayer that lets him teleport So it's whatever, you know That he casts extremely reliably So let's not complain about his movement too much And that's just it. He enables all the strong prayers you would want because storm cast have good prayers Hence having a good priest has a high value So whether we're talking about as a role or like what he's doing in the army as a hero is extremely useful he's survivable in context uh, and Just hyper hyper good at what he does Right And that's all on the scroll. The guy does not have a lot of rules. We're talking about basically two rules on his scroll Plus one to chant and he has these two prayers That's it right But in context that's good enough Right, and he he ends up filling this really weird ability to like you can shove him into things Um and hold them like not that you would do that normally because he's normally going to be like a general or whatever sure, but Um, like he has some really interesting Uh, just just because of it like the meanness of what he is as I three up foot hero. Yeah, it's been put here Yeah, it occurred to me that we could have done this whole show simply on storm cast heroes As contrasts right, but I I think people might get a little upset like I want to cover more than that But my point is you could literally go through the the storm cast hero section. I mean, there's like 40 scrolls So it's not a stretch and and apply these kinds of of like rules and separate them into two piles of good and bad Right based on good or scrolls bad or scrolls based on like, how do they work in their role? How functional are they? How modular are they? How do they synergize? Do they accomplish what they need to accomplish? Right, right. I mean you could do this for the whole Everything right the entire game. But uh, yes, even with that faction like there's there are standouts. Yeah Corn corn blades of corn also strikes me as one that you could do this easily with yeah Mike said the only thing that sucks about the lord rellecter is the only way to get him is to either get him off eBay or buy a box at full things most people will never use Uh alternative solution just kit bash the guy. It's a dude with a hammer and a stick I promise you it's not hard in a banner a hammer and a banner Yeah, like give him any banner. You just get the new knight vexelor. It looks better anyways Throw a hammer in his offhand and then like snip off the existing banner and put something else up there done It does it do a do a head swap and just use a skull for the head. Yeah, just use a regular skull. Boom Got him got him Right. I mean like almost all stormcast heroes are so interchangeable You can just like if you if you can find any stormcast hero sculpt you can make any stormcast hero out of them I've made many out of out of I've made many a stormcast hero out of like liberator bodies Because I had a bunch of extra liberator bodies and just turned them into heroes with the appropriate accoutrements Uh Or space marines that also works too surprisingly many of the especially characterful space marines will Will work for you just fine Okay, and those guys are everywhere Yeah, all right next up tom your next example Uh, we have blue show forces get a banner stick a skeleton on it done. Yes, exactly. Correct. There you go Uh, tell gore gruntas. This was your pick not mine. I just want to say this I like Uh, I had a different iron jaws item, but I'll talk about it later um So talk about gore gruntas Like what I have written here is good mobility that synergizes with the army ability Good damage that synergizes becomes great with the the army allegiance and access both a hammer and an anvil Simultaneously, I mean honestly like they're overtuned right now. Sure If their damage was wheeled back, they would still be a top pick for me Like assuming points, you know, we're appropriate because the reality is is that this this unit does something that the rest of the army doesn't do Right, which is be a mobile anvil. Mm-hmm And so I think that pigs serve a very real function in their army Um, and they're they're well pointed. They do good damage. Good mobility. Like it's just banging on all drums um Because it's doing it It's doing a lot of things that the rest of the army needs it to do and when you have an army That's basically made up of three war scrolls Right. Yep. Like you're you're non heroes or three war scrolls just like five correct. Yep Right. Yep. Each one has to stand out and do its own thing and interestingly iron jaws achieves that Yep Um, because and so gore grinder is like honestly, I could have picked either brutes or gore grinder Sure And honestly the the biggest challenge is that they decided to screw up this the perfect balance of iron jaws by adding the extra Rend to one of the weapons on gore gruntas I would have rated them as this as a good scroll For basically their entire history. They didn't need the extra pipa rend. It was stupid to apply it wheel it back to w Stop ruining your perfect balance. You had it. You nailed it and then you screwed it up Uh way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory Because it the problem is there and it knocked off the internal balance But it doesn't stop these guys from being a good scroll. They very much are I also agree with you the brutes are Like the only one that we could talk about would be Would be Um our boys and I just I think that they have a like they They have an identity crisis, right? But Ultimately gore gruntas and or brutes like they're they're doing what they need to do within the army and they synergize well and they Yeah, if I was going to pick brutes here, they would have an extra item that the gore gruntas don't Which is a unique interaction with the Uh with the game mechanics, right in their ability to stop one wound models from capturing Which is a very interesting and very potent uh ability that the brutes carry around with them unique unique abilities on a war scroll particularly an army that doesn't have anything like those abilities Can make war scrolls good. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So There's and I I like when you see those interesting unique flavorful single unique abilities Again, could be a very simple war scroll with one unique ability or you know, like two things like oh, they Do this basic thing and a unique ability. Yes I will have one of those later. Yeah, yep and uh And so like So very simple Right, like it can be simple and yet still highly effective. So yeah, I mean gore gruntas to me are the total package And if anything, it's the problem because they're probably still too cheap Compared right right right and so I think that Like they are I probably shouldn't have picked them because they're sitting in like sentinel territory right now They're probably there's still a good scroll like again Just because they happen to be under pointed right now that that's the point you could move the points and that that's the defense When you think about what's a good scroll? Here's the easy way to think about it Say if this thing were 10 points more or 20 points more per per take Would I still select it in a lot of our would I would I still consider it and select it? Yeah Maybe not every army. Maybe it does make you change up some builds yada yada yada But would you still see it and if the answer is yes, you've got a good scroll on your hands Right because it can withstand The pressure of going up points Yeah, right Like you would still see frost art phoenixes if they move them up 10 points 15 points 20 points They'd still be worth it for what they do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, he's nothing else does that right? And and it's the same with gore gruntas right if they had moved them to where they should have moved them They would have still been there right, yeah Yeah, there's like a range a bracket range of point points where things still function Right as like but the question is is like is it does it still function as like does the core chassis of the thing still run? Right Yeah, and if it's in that range of points the answer is yes. Yep. Yep That's right. Yeah, it's sort of like you can imagine a little the little red rangefinder from the price is right Right, and it's like as long as it's somewhere in that space The unit you're going to take it whereas again that rangefinder just doesn't exist for a bad war scroll Okay All right my pick dead walker zombies yo Uh pretty good. Yeah No defense basically, right? I mean we're talking about something with like no save I mean sure they've got a six up ward if they're near a hero Um sure But they have the potential for durability through replenishment slash mass wounds, right? That they can be 60 wounds worth of just bodies slash they can replace themselves depending on what they're fighting, right? And they have mobility shenanigans built in Now I personally think the nature of six inch pylon in the game currently is completely stupid and broken Uh In the fact that it allows for basically run and charge and retreat and charge and it's just like this super rule They've bothered to never fix but that is how it works right now But even if it didn't work with that stuff, okay? Even if it was still like imagine they fixed that So that six inch pylon didn't work When you ran or retreated, right? And it was just you can pile in from six inches Yeah Yep It would still be an incredibly good mobility shenanigan and pylon trick because it would let that huge unit fight Right. Yeah And they have the potential for damage Especially with synergy and and because the mortal wounds they could they kick out right and yeah Right. Yeah, so that gore salves a good example of replenishment capabilities You can uh give them bonus attacks through multiple different methods in the army Right where you're pushing their number of attacks up or making them pilot and fight twice through, you know van hels Like whatever whatever you pick your things right command abilities or spells there. There are synergies here. They are a They are fundamentally Strong on the like they tick all three boxes Right. They're they have modular power the scroll as it's written is strong All right with nothing else going on like it's useful They have a functional power. They fill a necessary role in in So blight grave lords being a wave of meat in front of the things you don't want to get hit until you can move into position And go fight and pick the fights you want to fight in right and they have a synergistic power Right that is they have lots of spells and command abilities and other things gore slav They can then increase their capabilities They tick all three boxes just like the gore gruntus by the way Right same same exact story Right And so You know to me that's just the the humble dead walker zombie I didn't expect it To be such a hot pick, but it came out with a good war scroll. They're they're cool. I like the new kit I think they look good and they're a good war scroll. This is how stuff should be written I think the underlying six inch pile engine should be fixed, but that's not this scrolls fold. That's game again I have a box that I need to put together of them There you go. That's one that's one of the potential next new armies for me. Hey, there you go. All right Anything else I missed on zombies or did I did I catch it all? Uh, no, that's they're amazing Uh, as tom learned one of the first times he ever fought them because I played tom with 120 zombie army and just It was like dawn of the dead Just Like bring him on Mm-hmm I think he soloed one block of 60. It still wasn't enough, but it wasn't enough, but he did He did go go track a lot of a lot of dead zombies around him All right, your next pick The grundstock gun hauler Uh, I have written here the perfect counter example to the steam tank Uh, it has a high mobility Uh, which which is in itself. It's usefulness frankly, um moderate to low damage, but very functional in its role Um, yes, okay. It's an extremely modular piece. Talk to me about the grundstock gun hauler. Why why is this such a good worse scroll? Because um show me an army that that's not good to put in let's just start there Okay, if I can take this unit and put it in any army And it still does its thing That says something. Um This is not a hero. It's not a monster it's um But and it doesn't have good damage, uh, but it wins games Yes, yes, and so, uh, it can be where you need it and you need to have a unit to be Um, you know, obviously fall ahead and fly high Um, but what's so fascinating is that like what you didn't include here is that it actually has a lot of synergy synergy Sure. So in the army that, uh In the army that it would fit in for example, um You would see, uh, it with um You could see it with balloon boys and or the hero that could to teleport around with it. Yep Um, it can be battle line in herb as So it can actually end up filling like army composition rules It guards it provides a six up ward save to two frigates and iron clads. Yep Um, and then you can even take an endron work in the army to put people inside of it Yep, um, and so the the question david heron asks is well, what role does it fill? Um, I would say that it fills two roles Um, one is the primary role is that of objective taker. Yep I totally agree threat objective control threat not damage threat objective control threat Right because you cannot leave an objective unguarded Or minimally or or minimally guarded if there's a gunhaul on the table You just can't and it's and if you're against a k army you doubly can't because they're gonna pick it up with like seven other troops and delete Any any like moderately lightly guarded unit. Yep Um, because you know six rigors a hitching on this will come in with like 18 pistol shots Right on threes and fours neg one one damage So like it's uh, and then again and because it's a utility that this is bringing the synergy with those other models Um, and so it's just doing lots and you know what I have a fire slayer army that has two of these in it Yep, I ran it in my city's a sigma army at nash con and it was it was unbelievably mvp so much of the time Because it was constant threat to just hop around the board It would be everywhere my opponent did not want it to be Right and like it's functionally a monster. Oh, that's the other thing. It doesn't have a chart right So this is a 10 wound monster ish model not non hero non monster that doesn't have a wounds chart So it has full functionality at no matter what wounds it's at yep It can always teleport it can always be this threat 10 wounds one wound. It's doing the same thing It's filling its role Regardless of there, right? How many boys fit in the gun hauler you can bring seven flying troops with it if they hitch or if you take the compartment you can put Um five five. Yeah Yep, and so you can fit like five thunders in there or um one of my favorites is to do um like a solo hero Like an indring An indring. Uh, I'm sorry not an indring a chemist Yeah, uh to deliver to deliver my spell in a bottle so that the whole army doesn't have to teleport to deliver the spell in the bottle Just one gun hauler and then by the way, his mobility is high enough that I hero phase Teleport him over there and then he can just a head full and and uh move back Gotcha. Yeah, exactly and move 18 inches back. Uh, so um there's So there's just a lot of options with this thing like it just does all the things even though it's low damage it's 150 some points like but it's Um, it does what it needs to do and that's the key like do these things serve a purpose And aren't like and if and if they are useful and it doesn't have very robust rules either like fly high And and the six afford other ships are its rules No, and the and the uh head full. Yeah, technically Which is yeah, super useful Like let's you and I have both used a head full many a time when you can't when the teleport's not going to work But then all of a sudden this thing rips 18 inches across the table and surprises somebody or whatever like yeah, it's It gets there. Uh, the other one that I like to use by the way, we were talking about uh models to put in there. Uh, the the chemist, uh Um, thundricks, uh privateers. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, the underband is our world's warband Yeah, because either you can put the whole warband in there the four the four dudes including a skywarden And the chemist or you can actually separate them put the four dudes in there and then send the chemist to do something else Um, and there's a nice bit of uh damage on there. Um, so it's just it has lots of options And I use the uh the cannon on Yeah, I agree to David. Yep, I agree Uh, yeah, um This is a complete non sequitur tom. This is just totally out of nowhere But you you sparked it in my mind um We played some soulbound over the weekend. We did a little soulbound marathon and in one of the adventures There's a new archetype a new rule to support it for ko stuff and you can play Uh a brew master like jacob bugman's in the 11th and it's amazing You get a whole rig for dispensing beer and it becomes a weapon and you can give people drinks that soup them up It's the most cool thing ever I have a new character. I would absolutely it was the first time I've ever wanted to play a dwarf in a Role-playing game. I was like this guy is so cool. Anyways, yeah, I agree Gun hauler is it's just such a great example and when you see it showing up in other armies where it has reduced synergy And no support and yeah, you that's when you know You've hit something that has good modular utility Right because it's good on its own. It's hit that modular Power right the regular sky cannon is what he's talking about because it has the dual fire option Yep, like either the long range or the the moderate range. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right Um, yeah, so my like gun hauler is like again, I run two of them in my fire slayers arm. Yeah So All right Yeah, it's a great pick and it's such I love that you had it because it's such a wonderful counter example to the to the steam tank Right like because the steam tank has instead of fantastic mobility. It has stupid random movement Right flying no flying Right. Yeah teleporting no teleporting. It's just like whatever This thing actually does more damage than steam tank too, but Ouch brutal. Yeah, that is brutal. Uh, all right My next pick Untamed beasts Untamed beasts Are they the game's perfect chaff? Are they the platonic form of chaff? Uh, I would argue that I uh, I think I might have a better form of chaff but continue. Okay, that's fine Certainly, we must admit they are they are uh ideal chaff in the world of chaos and one of the better Examples of that of the form Um They fit the role so well and this is a vital role Especially in a world of alpha strikes of alpha bunkering people into their their zones where We're being able to move out into the table to hold and claim territory is so important Right, they deal basically zero damage and die in bucket loads if they're attacked, right? Sure sure But they absorb enemy melee super well Um, they push out the lines through a pregame move Right, so they've got this all important very very powerful pregame move where they can jump out expand your area your zone of control Prevent you from being alpha blocked in Yeah, and they can also go pin something if they need to because they have run and charge built in Right. So like if they're out there And they're then they're like they go out there they get out there then they run like they can just cover an immense amount of ground Right depending on what they're running into they can tie up a shooting unit or just, you know, whatever whatever They're They're they're just wonderful in this regard Um Mark says I like iron golems similar key role in the army. I'll be a different. I don't disagree. I think iron golems are a good scroll as well Um iron golems are what chaos warriors wish they were Uh, frankly because They basically act like chaos warriors Uh, without and but they have these big ogres that have three wounds So if you just get minorly wounded you can lose one model instead of losing multiple models first things like objective control They're quite tough on their saves Uh, and you know to trigger their bonus to saves is so very easy Um, so I think both scrolls could fill that I just think untamed beasts are like a slightly better version because of their raw Like speed and mobility in the pregame move. Yes. Yeah, that pregame move makes them like because it stops some Tricks from ever happening. Right. Yeah, exactly It's just where uh, where iron golems have to face tank that Uh, they can they can even like untamed beasts can keep them farther off your line Right, right. Yep You know, and it's the the reason I thought it was so important to include stuff like this Yeah, like untamed beasts is because the important part to understand here is They deal basically no damage And cannot take a punch. I cannot Make this more clear. Okay. Yeah. Yeah They have neither offense nor defense And yet They are still good because In my earlier definition They are so Their their functional role is so strong They excel at being chaff which is a necessary thing So well Right. Yeah, that it's a good scroll. So you don't need to have scrolls that like, oh it Does a million damage or can never die or stuff like that like a well-balanced breakfast as it were Once some junk And then it can they can take they can just be there to die And or to be deck chair sitters or whatever, right? And This thing does that better than most almost anything else? True, right Okay, all right I hope you ordered my scrolls in the right order. I'm interested to see what you put next I don't know what we'll see Yeah, canary. That's what I think next. Yeah I was trying to go for themes tom. So that's good. No, I appreciate it because for me like it's funny that you picked Untamed beast as your perfect chaff Because for me, I think canary are the perfect chat sure Uh, I just want to shout out, uh Tristan in the chat who said hey, don't forget to hit that like button We've made it like an hour and a half into the show and I haven't said it yet hit like Subscribe do all that fun stuff hit buttons. It's fun. Just like it says up there. Okay. Go tom canary So, okay, so canary so let's talk about why I like them as chaff. Okay So like let's say that you're only buying these for a single function Sure, which is chaff. Um, they are uh, they're A high mobility I would call them extreme mobility Like they between their ambush and extremely high move speed fly and their move after Action they're shooting or melee. Yes. Yes. Yep. Um, but what's so fascinating is they're cheap You know, they're they're on par with the the types of of costs that you're gonna spend um with Uh With like untamed beasts, right? They're like 90 points 90 95 points. Sure They, um, they're on a five up save because of their shields Right, they're still five up in combat. Yeah, they're six base five up and go well, let me get plus one Yeah, five up in my back. But right, but so if you come into them They can actually feasibly have like a four up save which is not something that untamed beasts can have. Um I don't think they can anymore Who canary I don't think they can go that far. I mean if you're talking about for purposes of ignoring rend, sure No, I like it's not a it's not a it's I think it it flat say it It doesn't it's not a plus one to save on those shields. The shields just set the save to five plus. I believe Um, we can check that on the war scroll, but I'm pretty sure that that's how it's currently functioning Um, but they also have a six up after save. So yes, like even those five wounds. They may actually survive that But more Uh egregiously Every six up armor save kicks back mortals So like if a hammer hits this with like a hundred attacks Like all of that gets rolled and even though they're going to obliterate a shaft They're going to kick back a bunch of mortals. They're actually going to do something even as they die Okay Now I've only taught and they're only five models so you can stretch them out and align And they have old style coherency, yes Yeah, and they have a 40 mil base. So like a five, you know, like a five models motor 40 hill 40 mil bases actually are going to cover the same space as like 10 models. By the way, I'm correct. They're six up base Are they six up base now? Does this should give them a five up base? No, it just adds one to save rolls Oh interesting. Okay. Uh that that changed to the last since the last time I played them. Um But um, I've only talked about using this chaff Sure, but of course that yes part of the interesting thing about canary both flavors Is that they have rolls far beyond that because they can be ambushed They can act like the the gun hauler does and be objective threat because they're up in the sky just waiting to come down and potentially like heart renders can do enough damage to pick off a lightly guarded objective or just Uh, or or float onto an objective in either case depending on their their chute or charge Like they shoot at a unit It's there's you know, one hero on it. He's counting us two They drop they shoot they don't kill the guy they get the four up. They float's eccentricus forward They're five models. He's two models. You take the objective Yeah, like life like life takers receive buffs so well. Yes. These guys have incredible synergy Um, they have good damage base, but they can go to like pretty outrageous damage if you decide to To point your daughters of cane like our powers combined, uh, you know Buff matrix at them Right Yep Yeah, I mean they're they're multifunctional And like they force the enemies to make potentially bad decisions Because in the activations, right? Like if you have a set of melee Harps in combat You're going to force them to attack them first. Otherwise you might float away and they may never get to touch them Right. Yeah, exactly one of the extreme value of life takers is like they force bad combat decisions because if you get into them Right And you don't pick them and then they get a chance to fight then all of a sudden they can just be like, huh got you by Right, and they would be even better if there's a canary hero to go with them. But um Who would undoubtedly make their float away like go to a two-up? That would be his ability No, no, it would be a command ability that lets them reroll that the the four They just make it a two-up. Come on now You know, that's what would happen I mean or you could just like like you auto run six you can spend the command point in auto succeed um, but I say that to say I like I love This unit. Mm-hmm This unit just does so many things Um I think it's I think it is a it is a beautifully wonderful wash bowl and it's deceptive because people look at it and go Oh, it's five wounds on if you know over a hundred points for 90 points or whatever And they're just not looking at everything else. It's doing Yep No, I agree. Again, it ticks all those boxes Right, it's there's there's modular power to them and what they can do simply through Uh ambushing and and through their mobility. There's functional Power in them in their ability to play as chaff or objective threat or whatever, right? And their synergistic power and that they take a bunch of buffs, you know, well, yeah Yeah, that's true. Yep. So that's one of my picks and like that's my counter or that's my companion pick to your Untamed beast sure yep All right, uh to continue on on my next pick tom is morathe It's just morathe. Okay Like it's just morathe No, I mean morathe's a good pick Um just about almost at any point value morathe's a good pick. I hate to even say that sure sure Like right now. She's 660 or whatever. She has whatever nonsense. They ever pointed out right now And i'm like man, I'd pay 700 for her happily Like no question I would And that right there tells you everything you need to know right Yeah, she's strong offense strong mobility She has this extremely unique defensive ability and a lot of people hate that defensive ability her holds You can't take more than three wounds to turn thing. I don't well. There's nothing else in the game that does it Absolutely, there isn't and I like it I think it's great that she has it. I think the iron heart of cane is awesome um The like I said, I think truly the only issue with her right now is that her points are wrong But that's not that's nothing to do with what we're talking about right she is A good war scroll in everything you'd want it to be Uh, she does have a busted command ability. Um, that should probably be fixed But even if they fixed it to melee only I'd still like her Okay, but i'm dealing with the scroll as she is right now right and you yeah the I have the reason I like Everybody likes the concept Of a unique rule, you know, everybody's always like oh the old wrath monger rule is so cool Some people have mentioned wrath mongers. Okay, and yeah, hey, I love the old wrath monger scroll. I thought it was great right I wish they would never gotten rid of that rule. I think it was absolutely silly to get rid of that super unique unit Yeah, but you've got to be careful with things like that Right what I mean by that is I love a good unique interesting rule Yeah, but you can't have every army Have every unit Full of unique weird rules They're just totally game busting right or or just like some people just need sixes or mortal wounds Or whatever Okay And So having this one model in the game with her defensive ability I don't have an issue with her because again She still basically dies at the bottom of two top of three every game. I've ever seen her in or I've played against her You know Because like if you have the capability you just deal three wounds to her every every turn right Like that like your job is to make sure that she Is always taking three three wounds great And then ignore her like you do no more and no less right and She's it's not as though like it's it's hard to win a game other than apex predators On the back of marathi alone Right, right, but she's certainly a powerful piece within your your larger force And when you combine her with nakes Yeah, yeah, I mean her problem right now that makes her that honestly I don't think her problem is that I only take three wounds thing her problem is her stupid command abilities out of bounds Yes, I agree Like that that's her problem Fix the command ability so it's not dumb like it is now and we can have a conversation right Um, and then we can find the right points for and blah blah blah uh but To me I love a piece like this a god piece like this having a unique rule while still filling up a very clear role Right. She's an incredibly fast incredibly offensive piece who can get in there and do work and also support the army as a spellcaster at the same time right Hey woe said I haven't cracked the code on marathi yet. Hey woe it's blood vultures, baby You just send the blood vultures after that's all you got to do man Get them blood like you you ain't playing enough blood vultures. That's the problem Pack pack. That's right um But no I understand Um, if you don't have any kind of ability to project power she can she will live longer and that's challenging, right? Yeah um but Yeah, I I think she is a great like we could have a broader conversation again We've separated out the good for the game conversation from just a good war scroll What we mean here is like powerful useful utility. You'll see it in armies. You want to play it, right? There's a separate conversation about what's good for the game And that's totally fair. You can have good war scrolls that are bad uh for the game the uh But to me she's everything I want in a a good war scroll Because when I look at her I understand what she's supposed to do. I understand how she fits into the army I understand how she's you know what I mean like just she's Again ticking every box. She creates synergy. She's modularly powerful. She functionally fills a role She's doing all three things I don't know that I would ever build a Doc army without marathi ever And that's probably a negative like that's a strike against her being good for the game Like that'd be an easy way that's sort of a good litmus test for is it good for the game? If you say something like that, it's probably a no, right? No, I mean I get that that's true But for me like her her ability is just so unique And what it enables that I just can't imagine not running her. Yeah, sure sure sure Somehow yet again, she she snaked out of getting a points adjustment, but uh, here we are It's okay. I gotta hand it us for Sure Okay, uh All right, so anyways, um, yeah, there you go. That's marathi um I suspect my wife is gonna come down at some point here With dogs. Yeah, I can I can see her in the chat. All right. Your your example tom Phoenix guard. Yeah Like my the the appraisal here is pretty straightforward solid anvil performs this role very well through their word save Good in an attrition fight can do enough damage, especially with synergy Well, not not only enough damage. They're like threes and threes neg 11 Like they're like they're doing and they also have two inch reach on 25 mil bases Yes, this is where I want to have the base conversation. This is I saved this I saved the base slash reach Thing for these guys because I knew it was going to enable them But go ahead you hit me and it and like so so everybody's getting in with this unit And they're two attacks a model. So they're like they're they're going like they are amazingly fighty Um, I don't think people understand how fighty Phoenix guard are until they go against a unit of 10 and get like a 12 wound monster cut down Sure, although it's obviously with I mean neg one rend is what it is in the current world Admittedly if you walk into a safe stacked hero, you are stuck, but sure right, but who is safe stacking against Phoenix guard? That's the point. This is an anvil not a hammer Sure, I understand um, and so Uh, I mean what I would say is that uh, and then it's a single worship It's a six up safe or I'm sorry a four up base safe. They have a four up ward And they're not a problem. That's it. Mm-hmm. Like this is my example of just good bones on a worship And so that is my vote, um, I love uh Hello, dear. I love Phoenix guard Uh, yes, like I I agree Like the the the trick is as well. Remember they are fitting in with the earlier Uh hero that we mentioned Right. They they are synergizing. Well, like we talked about synergistic power come up There you go. Yes I Can subscribe um, they You know, we mentioned that the frost heart phoenix is quite good and has a lot of of Synergy with them, you know putting them on re-rolling wounds a rare buff Um that they still retain making them immune to battle shock Which helps them perform their be an anvil role even better Right because what you want to do is be able to just sit there and not worry about them So, you know, the two of them together are even stronger, right? Yeah, and I I believe that the bubble target doesn't ever target them So they don't receive that command like that's all the Like yeah, it's within x inches of the of the frost heart. Yeah phoenix. Yes So they don't receive a command when that command ability is used so technically you could do that in all out of salt Mm-hmm. So you could put them on like twos and then threes re-rollable Yep, yep, um, which is pretty filthy um Yes, hit like for the dogs make sure you reward my wife's hard work there of corralling all the monsters So that's what I would say is I'm a fan of these like again, this is a very solid simple war scroll It would see more play if it was a little bit cheaper. Yeah Yeah, I mean I I think they're pointed correctly Is my honest answer because they are they're the definition of frustrating to play against Um, you know in in that they perform this anvil role So unbelievably well Oftentimes you'll fight like if you're up against a unit of 20 of these things you just sit there and fight them and you're like What is going on? I should I feel like I should be making progress. These are tiny little elves. Why aren't they dying? And heaven forbid heaven forbid that there's a life swarm on the table. Yeah, sure exactly right so again Functional power in their role right excellent excellent anvil one of the better infantry anvils in the game I would argue not as good as the one i'm about to talk about but good Um, and you know good in attrition fights synergize well with other units so on and so forth right again checking all of those boxes Yeah, yeah, okay. Yep. Here's mine tom plague bearers Uh, oh, yeah, baby. This is my anvil pick. Okay Okay, go because this is 20 wounds Right now that i'm getting out of this unit Now given their six up five up not as good of a safe profile. I openly admit, okay Now yeah, not as good as fours and fours. Yeah, I bet. Hey, totally fine. Totally fine I mean, you know points aren't part of the discussion, but I would point out that right now. They are these are cheaper Okay. Oh, they are. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um, these are also good in an attrition fight Um, because what most like their damage just comes through mortal wounds like fighting them gives you three to four mortal wounds a turn That's what happens Okay So like over the course of a battle round taking six to eight You know double 12 is you know, like if you fight them for two full battle rounds, which is not unusual in a brick of 20 Right. Yeah, uh, you're taking eight or sorry, uh, 12 to 16 mortal wounds on your unit Right. Yep. Uh, that's a lot most units can't withstand that I mean, certainly the phoenix guard can but the anvil against anvil fights are always the worst Okay. Yep. There's and let me just say phoenix guard would cut these dudes down In a fight because they would shear off their their base save Yeah, I don't know. They don't really need to six up is my honest answer I think you'd be surprised and and they'd throw 20 attacks out. Yeah, I understand. I mean, it's fine. Yeah Uh, but at any rate, I love plague bears. I think they hit all the right notes They're synergistic with there's actually actually a lot of good synergy opportunities That certainly plague bears have more synergy opportunities in the overall army Uh, which is one of the reasons I really like when you think about scrivener or bilepiper or other demon interactions You know the fact that these there is a spell that exists in this army. They can turn them into three wound plague bears Right, which is truly truly obnoxious at that point Uh, when when they go to three wounds, they're They're unmovable for the most part that 20 block is untouchable. Right because it's got at that point. It's suddenly You know, we're talking about 60 real wounds 90 effective wounds. It's nonsense. It's just nonsense, right? uh, so um Yeah, I I think plague bears are a perfect example of how to write a battle line anvil right, um They do something Simply by existing in holding up the enemy in a very good way Yeah, well also slowly chewing them down right and interestingly Let's have the talk about base size versus Oh, yeah, this is such this is such a contrast right between these two years Right because the like I thought these two examples would be good to counterpoint this right Yep, and The fascinating part about it to me is that plague bearers by all accounts Have the worst base to reach Version right there are 32 inch bases. There's 32 inch good six They're 32 mil bases We're the one-inch reach Yep, yeah So you're going to get like Five of them into combat. Yeah, I mean it depends you can do the little Bougie bougie bougie thing, you know and have all 10 people fight like it's possible. They make mini mag trays for it, right? sure But taken it's a worse profile, right 32 with a one-inch reach is generally a bad profile What's interesting is that it's a bad profile for hammers Right where you need to Where you need to be able to apply the unit's damage like compare it to phoenix guard Who are two inch reaching on a 25 mil base? So they basically all fight every time Always like always like if they're in combat everybody's fighting. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah so the the fascinating part about that to me right is that They could keep doing like they could do one inch reach 32 mil units that are playable Yeah, right. I mean well, I mean not volkites, but they could they probably exist No, I mean, uh These guys are it right my point is if it were to be chaff. I don't care It might actually be advantageous to be on a bigger base. I don't care. It's not going to fight If it's a pure anvil And I'm not worried about it doing damage to swinging its weapons as I'm most certainly not with plague bearers Right, right, right, then it's fine The problem is they keep writing hammer units On with one inch reach on a 32 mil base or or any of the other base bad one inch combinations, you know, you know Whatever whatever like there's there's a bunch of these where they'll give You know Bulgore or something a one inch reach which is so Stupid and insane, you know, whatever you can you can pick your thing, right? But my point is it's the hammer units Is it feel the pain? Yeah, yeah, right? And if you're if you're not in that role Uh Who cares? Right, yeah It's fine like you can you can get away with it. Um, so yeah Uh, doesn't 32 make coherency more painful too. I mean Uh Sort of it depends It's like is the answer. Yeah, I mean, yes, there is a difference No doubt because 25 mil people can touch each other and just be in a solid line And you can do that kind of nonsense um But you know, it's it's It's not as though like a 32 mil infantry unit isn't the worst to maintain for coherency. I'll say There are let's be Let's be very clear. It's not cav with a one inch reach. Yeah, right. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I mean, there's yeah My I was I was trying to I was being Temperate there Tom because we know there are worse Right, there are worse combos which are cav Units with one inch or like 50 mil base guys with one inch reach who were who are want to be in six Like units of six like three six ogres ogres. Yeah ogres being a great example Yeah Where they're clearly intended to be hammers and the base Rules of the game have just said no, you can't be a hammer Just you gotta waste half your points in your unit or something, you know Or two third or sorry a third of the points in your unit, whatever right Okay, so anyways plague bears again Perform their roll well Modulate useful synergize with a lot of other things Okay, okay All allow it All right, I am not as taken by them as a excellent war scroll. Let me just say that I I think that they are on the lower end of that excellent war scroll. Although I you have to why you picked up Yeah, I mean look we're talking about good war scrolls. Good. I picked a good Right intentionally you can't tell me these guys wouldn't fall into good war scroll Like in that category, sure you can argue about where they fall in that place I'm not saying they're near the tippy top, but you cannot tell me they wouldn't be in good war scroll. There's no way I mean, they're not, uh, they're not nurglings People are really coming around on nurglings by the by I know they are. No, they'll They'll I might have to make some little nurgling bases, uh for my for my burgeoning nurgle army, I guess Uh, all right Okay, fine, they're not plague drones then Yeah, I see you want to throw hands Uh Look, we're not gonna have that discussion again. Okay, uh, I have one last example then we go into the bonus round tom You're ready. Okay, sure because I really wanted to get this guy in here because again He was one because he's on the the thumbnail and to because He's such an interesting use case Kyro's fate weaver Okay Good spell caster makes excellent use of allegiance abilities And he has one of the most uniquely powerful control elements in the game in his in his change die He does he does So Kyros is an interesting example to me what I what I thought was interesting about kyros Is Marathi's rule is also a unique thing like again kyros is a one-off in the game Nobody else does exactly what kyros does Right, there are people who can like change die basings and stuff usually for their own roles You know, right, but he's one that cheats just like that's what his rule is. He just straight up cheats Right, that's his rule. His rule is once a game cheat right Not to mention the fact that he has good access to a different mechanic that is also cheating which is destiny dice, right? That's that's many times per game. You cheat on one of your dice Right like nine times per game. You can cheat on your dice one time per game. You can cheat on their dice. Yeah But what was fascinating to me about kyros as I thought about this was, you know, Marathi's ability is sort of theoretically always on Right, right and there's this very direct cost to it um You know, she can only take three wounds, but she can never heal under any circumstances No way know how forget about it. It can't happen. So every wound she loses is just that's ticking down It can never tick back, right? Okay But it's always on kyros is interesting because his ability Isn't like ever present But the threat of the ability is ever present. It's this once a game thing that is So potent and so frightening and so powerful Yeah, right and what it can accomplish that it can be the fulcrum on which a game turns Right when played properly That one charge that you needed Is not there tick that one that one Spell that you needed to go off is not there or is now a miscast tick. Yep. Yep. Yeah, exactly and so it's He's fascinating to me because for a couple reasons He's very unusual in the good war scroll section because His like Functional power of what he does in the role. It's fine. He's a good spellcaster. I purposely said good spellcaster Not great. Not amazing. Not spelldom. I mean, he's good Right, don't get me wrong flipping your low die to match your high die ain't nothing Okay But you know it is what it is. He's a good spellcaster. He has a he has a very strong spell Admittedly. Yeah, uh that like wants to be best friends with portal Yeah, um, but he's not incredibly defensive. He's not incredibly like if you put him in melee, he's kind of in trouble you know, um So, you know when I think about him He is modularly powerful, but it's almost completely on the back of the spell on his war scroll And his unique Control element his dice change Right. It's not as though he truly synergizes with a ton of stuff. I mean, he makes good use of zinches allegiance ability Certainly, right and and all the spells, right? Yeah, sure sure because he's magic and they have a lot of magic crap Right. Yeah But you know, he's just Interesting in that his thing once a game will work will Change something important about the game Right, right and if it's used right it can be like game winning, right? right Yeah, and so he was just an interesting example to me of of Again, how oftentimes one unique rule can define a good scroll Right. Yeah, and there's certainly a points cost you wouldn't play kairos Seven or points six or points five whatever, you know, it doesn't matter like there's some obviously there's a point to us where he stops getting played right but it's interesting to me that He's not only valuable in his own army But he's also such a critical part of something like legion of first prince Where he walks over and somehow synergizes better Not with any rule written necessarily on a scroll You're you're already playing counter spells and now you're adding force to will Exactly So yeah, no exactly tom. That's that's the perfect way to put it What was fascinating to me about kairos as I thought about him, especially going over to legion and the nature of synergy Is that this normal way we think about synergy is pretty straightforward. It's the it's the seraphon skink or dock thing where it's like You know this type of unit gets this bonus and this bonus and this bonus and this bonus and it's you know direct Game rule interactions Yeah Target skink unit gains run and charge mortal wounds on or you know does one mortal wound on a wound roll to six whatever Yep. Yep kairos is synergy in legion of the first prince is almost completely thematic synergy Right, right where His Function and what he's doing fits so well With something like bellicor or the corn demon prince or whatever like the general thing that the army is often going for They're not always we're going to do a legion of the first prince show sometime soon by the way Yeah, that that is his form of synergy right, right, it's just it's What what he's doing is functionally like he's adding another counterspell to your hand. Yeah Because you already have two ways to control the enemy now you have three right Um, and if one doesn't work then another one might work And if that doesn't work then you always can fall back on his right Yep, so it just gives you one more opportunity to say no to the enemy Yeah, it's what legion of the first prince is doing. Yep So yeah, for anybody that's played magic, it's very frustrating to play a true blue player, of course, of course all right Just reminded of the most ridiculous series of magic games I've ever played in my life back in like 97 down at the Down at our old college house. I don't think you are around but Tell you about it some other time. All right so uh bonus round Bonus round these are just quick items for discussion that I wanted to include a few more I did put sentinels on here Modular synergy like modular and synergy and they're just busted They do both too well What's written on their scroll then combines with what they can synergize with to create a busted unit Right and their wizards like yeah, here's here's the reality like I threw them in my um settlers gain army Yeah With zero synergy sure Zero no synergy They did great Like like you know what I needed. I just needed them with the other units I actually didn't use almost any allegiance abilities in my entire army. It was literally just units Yeah, complete modular power legion's ability. Right. It was complete modular power. We're pretty good Sentinels pretty good war scroll apparently sure Tyler s do you think the gw would be able to better balance their game and create more unique and interesting war scrolls if they moved away from The d6 system no not necessarily you can you can do something on a d6 You can do something other dice types other dice types do allow for interesting curves and variants Um, there is value to it, but the problem is you can't do it Warhammer cannot be on any other die, but a d6 ever it can't Because as silly as it sounds certain ephemera becomes over time embedded in the core identity of a thing And you cannot violate that without People saying it's not that thing anymore Right and like it's dv and d20s Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yes Right like it that's the problem like games will in in sort of the big theory Of game design. There's this last step. That's ephemera, which should be the least important thing But the challenge is is that ephemera over time It's because it's the thing players touch the most Um Becomes solidifies and becomes concrete. Yeah becomes sort of the foundational elements of how they view the game So anyways Um, the point is yes, maybe not necessarily, but it will never matter. It will never happen Because they will look at that and go that's not warhammer Right Not just them the audience as a whole would look at and say it's not warhammer like in mass um, all right Orgots demon spew homie. I picked him you could have picked any of the the The mega lords um pure modular power. I mean Yeah Right, I love all of them Like I know that vince is like don't build all three in an army. I'm sure I tried so hard Yeah, I tried so hard. It's a trap. They're just so fun. Admiral Ackbar did warn you He did indeed. Um, it's but I agree. Uh, man, I love those. Uh, I love those dudes Yeah, I just think they're a perfect example Of both filling a functional role while also being modularly powerful Yep, at the same time. They are a good war scroll. You read them. You get what they're supposed to do They do that thing well and they don't require support to do it Perfect right like you they just they are good as good is defined like again gw has started to get One of the things I've been very happy with over the the recent books for the most part This isn't always true. There's a couple exceptions recently, but For the most part gw's gotten real good at figuring out the 300 point hero mark Right and like what does a 300 point hero need to do look like feel like To earn its keep Right. Yeah Uh, yeah, so there you go. Um Functional power hammer fulminators. Do we need to say anything else? Right. Oh, they're fulminators are really good. Yeah, sure because Why are they the best one? Of all of them because what I want out of this unit is a hammer And they do the job the best and they do the job the best like that's it folks There's nothing else to it Like I know we want it. We like maybe maybe there's a way to like play with the points of concussers versus Uh, you know fulminators versus Desolators or whatever the other ones are called. I don't know all the other ones So that like there's some kind of reasonable choice there, but my answer is I'm not sure that's true Yeah Now Maybe there is maybe there isn't I need to think about it probably for like one or two of them there is But there's just going to be some that don't work like that when you have so many units that are so similar But one is so clearly excelling at the role it was intended for It's just going to be the choice like would I pay assume there's a 20 point gap between fulminators and the other ones Am I still buying fulminators? Yes. Yeah Yeah, right. Yep. Okay. How about if there's like a 50 point gap? All right Maybe now I'm going to take concussers who are the next one down right for for doing damage Right or or even the evo kiddies like I wonder if the evo kiddies don't suddenly become an option there Right, like it's just a question of of like sure. I could push I could price the fulminators out of the market Right, but as which would then make me fall down To the next best option, right? I'll take the less good concussers because you've priced fulminators out of the market Right, you put fulminators at 300 And concussers at 210. Okay. Well now it's not worth 90 points, right? But if there's a small difference I want I will pay 20 points more because points are ephemeral and don't really matter and 20 points doesn't really matter And 40 points in my overall list doesn't actually matter. It just doesn't I know it doesn't I can prove it doesn't because people win with 1960 point lists all the time Many 50 tournaments have been taken with 960 1960 lists And they didn't win that game solely based on that once a game triumph That would be a wonderful Statistic ticks floor is the like the where Like winning lists. Where do they fit on the points scale? And are there any? Like trends, right, right, but my point is we all know it's happened a ton All right, and so 40 points doesn't matter. It just doesn't right So I'm willing to pay the 40 points Yeah, again unless we're talking about an edge case where it's like it enables a list or it doesn't Right my point is in the raw of like you have 2000 points I have 1960 points as long as you've both built the list We think is good and we are functionally doing what we want You have no actual advantage over me because you've got 40 more points in your list. We all know that's true Right So you're not going to adjust fulminators 20 points up or something and and like yay now we fixed it. I'm going to go take stupid desilators or whatever No, I'm not I'm absolutely not. I'm going to keep taking fulminators because I I'm paid for a hammer. I want a hammer That's what I'm here for Funkoid cave shaman It's my last pick there tom functional power. That's a bull pick utility Now I see that I think this guy I think this guy meets it. He's a little caster Would you ever put him in your iron jaws army? Many people do I I don't because I don't want but that's not because of his rules That's because non One, I don't like spell casters in my iron jaws army two. I definitely don't want weedy little runts in my army Now I did convert one for my army tom Like I do have one that I painted But I would never actually play him. I just did it as a fun little project to paint a goblin because I like painting goblins but Um, but that's like that's a complete aesthetic thing like my iron jaws army is meant to be all armored lads um the like again He's got a built-in four upward He can give you bonus command points Yep, once a game he can double cast Yep, right. It's quite a frame Of what he's doing there and he's priced probably pretty correctly for that He is a good ally in a lot of destruction forces because he's adding a lot of utility To what you want to do in those armies Like I would like to suddenly cast more spells or to have an extra command point on a Relatively tiny little survivable hero. I would point out the dude is so small It's relatively easy to hide him behind anything you want as well Right that dude if you're playing on tables with real terrain Uh, that dude should be very hard to target most times Yeah, uh, unless you're your enemy has sent those right sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course See previous comment about busted Um, so, yeah, I think that I think the fungoid cave shaman is a good war scroll Now, you know overall like there are and that's the reason I wanted to end on him Was because there are good war scrolls in otherwise quote-unquote bad armies Yeah, right Gitz has a trash win rate right now Yeah, and legitimately so like because a lot of their core units don't have an identity Mm-hmm but Blocks of 60 gets don't do anything And they're hard to use and they don't actually accomplish any of the things that you would want a 60 model unit to do right right now like sigval is and and the army is now also hamstringed by Uh points reinforcement points, right sigval is a good example of a good war scroll and an otherwise bad army Right. Sure. Um, yep with a unique unique ability. Yeah, right, right, right You know, so these these things exist like if I didn't put your army up here This is not meant to be the exhaustive list folks of all good Representative like when we talk like so when you hear us talk on the show about something being a good war scroll This is what we're talking This is helping frame What we're doing right? Yep So, I mean like if we didn't happen to pick one from your army, it does not mean your army is bereft of good war scrolls Certainly not. Um, it just means that like again, I cut this to good I didn't want to get into like a tier system of you know All this and really break it out and start saying like what it didn't go through You know 8,000 war scrolls, right or whatever And the things that make stuff like excellent war scrolls are it's the combination of all these factors Plus then points that are aggressive. They're aggressively pointed. Sure, right? Like that's what pushes things up into that higher tier like sentinels. They were a super good war scroll That was super aggressively pointed. The problem is is that like because points shift around so much Like things dropping from like an excellent war scroll to a good war scroll is a regular occur, right? And it's well, then that's where we get into the conversation about good scroll Good for the game blah blah blah blah, right clearly things that are that's where you get into the efficiency play But what I was concerned with here is where is the meat? Good right with the bones of the thing Yeah, because if you've got good bones You've got a good like if the scroll is good, then we can find a point where it'll work at Right Uh, sjrk, is that real? Is that the actual number? That seems low, but all right. I'll try I'll take your word for it I said 764 war scrolls. I feel small But I'll take your word for it um Yeah, I think that You know when I look around at these types of units What I see is that as it stands right now The most common thing that tips you can we talk about what makes you fall off of this string now that we've we've done That's like you're walking this tightrope What makes you fall off the most common occurrence to me as I was as I was looking through Was when you are effectively a duplicate unit That does the same role less well Right, right. That's a great like until you just talked about fulminators versus all of the other units. Yeah Yep, they're all doing the same thing functionally Just one of it and does it better than everything else if that's the case That's the winner the others don't get played right It's just that easy and it was fascinating to me how often I was uh How often I was finding that happening where Oh, it's clear. This is the good war scroll Right, and then here are the one two three others Yeah That are just worse versions of that thing Yeah, no, I mean you're you are dead on and in fact like I think that this haunts a lot of armies Yeah, like cities. I think it's the most egregious version of 100. Yes Because when you go to cities, you're like, well, what do I want is my tank unit? You know and there's like a bunch of if then questions Are you running a phoenix if no then phoenix guard aren't your tank unit, right? If yes, that's who your tank unit, right? Um, and then it but the reality is is that then you get into like, okay, well, then I'm gonna run it, you know, run it gonna run Uh eternal guard or whatever like or I'm gonna run iron breakers or I'm gonna run Yeah, right and so it's like That was the number one cause the number two cause was when I looked at a unit and there was a clear mismatch between Whatever the designers thought the role was supposed to be Yeah, and whatever the role actually is Right, okay This you see a lot where it's like, oh, they thought this was a hammer unit, but it's just a bad hammer Right, there's no other there might not be a good hammer in the army in that same points category unit size Whatever they're just functionally bad at their thing Right right You know, they don't fill any actual role. They're a bad hammer. They have no mobility They're bad at defense They're too expensive to be chaff or they're not mobile enough to be chaff or there's nothing special about them as chaff Right, like you can't they can't even meet the b bodies that just stand around bar Yeah, right They just don't do anything It is shocking to me Shocking to me the number of scrolls That seem to I guess be thought of as hammers like oh what they'll do is do some damage No, you calc out their damage and it's like the average damage of this unit is 2.2 and I'm like man You're not a hammer Uh, the test came back you are not a hammer right and So those two things Made people fall off of this this, uh Chart very fast, right now I want to talk about sons of badmott a little bit here at the end because I mentioned we would talk right, right Sons of badmott I really struggle with this, but here's my take on them tom For the most part sons of badmott are bad war scrolls That's my answer Okay, okay Yep, the War scrolls of sob are bad each star Yep The the thing that they do is they absorb mightier makes right here Yes, yes, their allegiance is what makes them awesome Um, like it was so I was trying to do the fifth gate breaker in my death knight haunt stuff Yeah, the only exception might be the gate breaker by the way because he actually can be a hammer Right. He actually does do damage Even then like it just wasn't ever Like I was never never happy with the way how it ended up Sure, I get I mean that being said people have used gate breakers and lots of armies and I understand why because Like gate breakers are arguably a hammer Right, they actually can fight their way out of wet paper bag Which cannot be said for kraken eaters and war stompers Okay, sure sure and so it's The like I couldn't defend them as good war scrolls. I wish they were I wish they had made them unique and good war scrolls where they were interesting to play Yeah, right, but they didn't they made them milk toast war scrolls Uh that do not much interesting and rely on an overpowered allegiance ability to become oppressive dps checks Yeah, right Yeah And that's my problem with them Um, they are a strange example because it feels like they should be good I mean like it feels like they should be good given out that army performs Yeah, um, but they're just not on scroll. They're not right. That's it's just that easy Um, yeah, so there you go. All right. Anything else what else didn't is there anything else we didn't talk about? I think we covered most of it all. Yeah, I think we got through it right on All right, everybody. Well, there you go. That's that's our take on good war scrolls Some good war scrolls and what makes them good so Uh, just remember many war scrolls cannot be fixed by points And will never really be valuable outside of like you like the unit So you take a suboptimal choice because it's fun, which I support completely by the by Uh, and what GW needs to do is think a lot more about you know functional roles modularity and When they invoke linear design how far they go with it to make things punch too far above their weight to make them Impossible to point like they should think about these things more and design scrolls like the ones we've talked about here Go ahead. What were you gonna say? Oh, I just I had an idea for a couple shows that we could do sometime Oh, okay Well, good. Oh, I mean we can certainly do the inverse of this, but we already did I think we did like A long time ago. We did like the 10 worst war scrolls in the game Yeah, I remember that and you know, we hadn't framed it like the same way we did this because I don't think we We put the same sort of first principles around it Right, right, but the first principles help give shape to to this entire conversation, right? No, yeah And so Yeah, indeed We might be talking about these things more in the future folks indeed indeed. So there you go Uh That's our take on good war scrolls. What are the ones we missed? What are your picks for good war scrolls? Put them down in the comments I want to know I want everybody to discuss what they think are good war scrolls that we didn't talk about Hit that like button subscribe if you haven't already get out there play some games paint some models do all that stuff Really appreciate it. Uh, as always we thank you very much For watching And we'll see you next wednesday