 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. Bingo! 4 o'clock on a Wednesday, you know what that means, energy. Hawaii, the state of clean energy. And for this show we're going to talk about transportation. I'm calling it the state of clean transportation. And the centerpiece is the Maui Eevee Ohana story. And our guest here in the studio is Brennan Morioka. He is the general manager of electrification of transportation. You can put that to music, Brennan. Yeah, it's a tumble. Say hi. How are you folks? All right. Good to see you. It's so nice to have you here. And we have somebody on the hookup from Maui, which is the center of the Maui Eevee Ohana story. That's Jarrett Contino. And he's the energy contract manager for Maui Electric. Welcome to the show, Jarrett. Thank you for having me. We have your picture here. We can see you. All right. Okay, I hope it's a good one. Beautiful head shot. Okay, so why don't we start with the general status of electrification of transportation in Hawaii? Okay, Brennan. So I think things are moving and I think starting to get a little bit more aggressive in our schedules and our initiatives. Now, as we talked before on previous shows, we did file our electrification or transportation roadmap in March of 2018, I can see now saying last year, that kind of outlined a lot of the initiatives and steps that we think are going to be able to help promote the accelerated adoption of electric vehicles in Hawaii. And it's not just vehicles, it's buses, it's transportation equipment at the airports, at the harbors. So it's a much more comprehensive look about transportation and electrification of that transportation sector in general. And so we've been working over the last half a year on putting together some of the initial steps. One of the first things that we said we were going to do was file an application for an electric bus tariff to help all of our transit agencies and bus service providers with an opportunity to help introduce electric buses into their fleet. We've also updated our roadmap. The roadmap initially had an analysis on what a forecast would look like for Oahu as well as cost benefits in terms of what EV adoption and increase of EVs on our roads would do for both our economy as well as for our customers, our utility customers. We needed to continue that by doing the analysis for both Maui Island and Hawaii Island. So December was a very busy month for us as a utility because we did file that amendment with the additional analysis for both Maui Island and Hawaii Island. And it continues to show that there are benefits for both our general economy as well as for all of our customers as we transition towards a more clean transportation sector with increased EVs on our roads. Then we followed that up with also in the last week or two with an application to the PUC for an electric bus tariff, which I mentioned and we can talk a little bit about it more later on. But we also, one of our key initiatives that we filed in application for, which is why Jaris on the phone, was Maui Electric filed an application to transition ownership and management of charging assets on Maui that was previously operated by or currently operated by Maui Economic Development. And then previous to that Hitachi as a part of a Japanese government program that NATO funded in order to increase EV adoption or to see what providing charging to the general public would do towards promoting EV adoption on Maui, which I thought was a very fantastic idea. And the results were very, very positive in showing that Maui was one of the most progressive and most accelerated areas in the country in terms of EV adoption per capita, primarily because of the fact that we had a very robust fast charging network on that island. It's all about fast charging, isn't it? Let me unpack some of what you said. So on the bus tariff, electrification of buses, the buses that are operated by the city mostly, so how does the utility get involved? What would a tariff like that say and do? So part of the electric bus tariff is meant to, number one, incentivize either transit agencies, so all of the counties or state government. Airports has quite a bit of fleets of buses and shuttles that we're trying to electrify as well. But there's also a large private sector, you know, Roberts, Hawaii, ground transportation, all these different very large bus service providers, Inoa, JTB, who provide bus services for our tourism economy, for our school districts, for some of the private schools have bus fleets. So by offering an electric bus tariff that helps to promote electric bus integration into their fleets by giving them a little bit more favorable rates while they do this transition, as well as shifting towards a time of use rates. And on most of the utilities rates are shifting towards time of use, trying to promote daytime loads rather than... That's a modern approach for sure. Exactly, because that's where all of our solar energy is, is during the middle of the day. So we want to encourage people to, you know, instead of charging or using electricity during the peak hours, having that same load being transferred to the middle of the day, then we can pair that up with solar generation and power generation where it's a lot cheaper and we can then integrate this a little bit better for our customers. So we've introduced, as a part of our e-bus tariff, favorable time of use rates, where we're encouraging them to charge the buses during the middle of the day or charge them overnight and stay out of the peak periods. And I think so far they've been very receptive to what we've been proposing. Well, all of our customers, the transit agencies, so we just filed it with the PUC and so they have, I believe, a few months to review and comment and then provide feedback to us and then hopefully they find favor in our application and then approve it so that we can then offer it to our customers. Sure, the better, really. So, you know what, now what do you say to the guy who says, well, that's nice that you're electrifying all the vehicles, but if you're still using electricity that's generated out of fossil fuel, how does that really benefit us on the way to 100% renewables? Right, and that's one of the arguments about electrification of transportation is that, yeah, you might be converting the fuel from gasoline to electricity but that electricity is still generated by dirty fuel, which is true today. But because the electric companies are all required to achieve 100% RPS by 2045, as we move towards that goal, which is a mandate, so we are required to do it, as we get closer and closer to 2045, that fuel energy that is powering electric vehicles becomes cleaner and cleaner every day. Same can't be said for gasoline cars. The emissions will continue to be emitted by gasoline-powered cars versus electric cars which that fuel source will become far cleaner over time. Yeah, that's a really good point, because when you buy a car, a fossil fuel car, which most people in Hawaii are still doing, then that's got a useful life of 5 or 10 years and that person is locked into a fossil fuel car for that period of time or longer. Average person in Hawaii keeps their car for about 15 years. 15 years, that was worse yet. So we've got to get them out of the fossil fuel cars and we can fix the electrification of the source all along the way. Correct, especially with fleets. I mean, over the time, because especially if you have a large fleet, it's going to take you some time to transition hundreds, if not thousands of vehicles. And so we do need to start today if we want to achieve certain goals by 2045. Okay, and further unpacking, I want to talk about the Maui deal. And Jarrett, can you tell us what happened with Maui? Can you give us a little background and how it happened and what happened and where it's going? Sound to speak. Sure, yeah. So Brennan did give a brief history of how the JumpSmart Maui project came to be. So what actually happened is we had a similar situation about two years ago where Hitachi was expressing that they may be moving on. They came to an agreement with MEDB, Maui Economic Development Board, to continue operating the JumpSmart Maui project for a period of two years. We at Maui Electric have had a very close working relationship with MEDB for some time. So we were assisting in kind of a consultation type role with them. We found out earlier in the year, or last year I should say now, that Hitachi was intending to exit the DC fast charging market here on Maui when their contract ended at the end of March. So we were approached by some of the community members here, being in the county of Maui, MEDB, and some others to say, hey look, why doesn't Maui Electric leverage their expertise and look into taking over this DC fast charging network. So in its current form, known as EVO HANA, we were willing to do what we could to continue the project and the program going. We realized how important it is to electric vehicle owners here on Maui. So we started looking into it. We started first to see who was available, who might help MEDB take this over, and in the end everything kind of pointed to Maui Electric as the lasting solution. We are here, we've been here for however long at this point, longer than I've been alive certainly. And we will be here for years to come, so it really made sense that Maui Electric being the energy provider for Maui County and the island of Maui, we take over parts of this EVO HANA program. So as we started digging into it, we started identifying crucial sites that would form a backbone of DC fast charging across the island. The existing EVO HANA program does get some really terrific use from the EV drivers that are here on island, but it was designed for the Asian car market. So what that means is the current DC fast chargers here on Maui only have a chat-a-mo charging port. So in our analysis and looking to see what we could do to help out, we identified that to truly promote the electrification of transportation, if we were going to step in, we were also going to look to make some changes and we were going to look to change out the charging technology to open it up to everyone with an electric vehicle. Oh, good idea, sure. So as it stands, I think EVO HANA has about 44 charging ports on the island. Maui Electric has looked into what the backbone would be to continue DC fast charging from Lahaina all the way to Haiku. And we are looking at replacing... We are looking at assuming ownership of eight of the current 13 sites, which is roughly 26 of the current DC fast chargers. And what we'll basically be doing is over a period of the next 18 to 24 months, we'll be working to change out the DC fast chargers to have the newer technology, like I mentioned, at those eight sites and provide at least two DC fast chargers at all sites. So we'll have a total of 16 charging ports that can all simultaneously charge an electric vehicle, and that way ensure that we can continue to provide DC fast charging services for the current EV owners and try to encourage some of those North American brand EVs, any of those residents who buy one of those cars to start charging here in the island, whereas before they would have only been restricted to charging at home. So that was a big thing for us, which kind of brings us to the filing of the application, really. So end of December we filed an application with the PUC identifying our plan, and that brings us to where we are now. So let me ask a couple of questions about that. So what kinds of locations do these involve? I mean, I take it this as a purchase of the assets of the EV Ohana by Maui Electric. So at the end of the day, Maui Electric will own the charging stations that were originally installed and developed. So we're not really purchasing any of the assets as much as we are just taking over the responsibility for the sites that we've agreed to take over. So Jared mentioned that we're looking at eight out of the 13 sites that are currently out there, and we really did an analysis based on what locations had high utilization, so very high demand. You had to take them all. No, we're not taking them all because we also need to be responsible and responsive to our ratepayers because if we are going to be recovering costs for changing out the infrastructure. We want the high traffic ones. We want to make sure that number one, we're able to recover our costs, but also that we're not going to be introducing new costs to other ratepayers who aren't taking advantage of these sites. So the county of Maui winds up holding the assets? No, so each of the different... Who will own them? So we will ultimately own the charging units once we go through the process of replacing them. Currently, MEDB is the official owner of these current assets. As we replace them slowly over the course of the next two years, like Jared had mentioned, we will then take ownership of those units because like you said, right now, all of the units are primarily for their chathamal ports, which means that they are almost restricted to just Nissan Leafs because it was based on an Asian market type pilot program. But all of the units that Hawaiian Electric Companies, all three of our different companies install, we want to make sure that it's available to all the different types of EVs out there. So we install units that have both chathamal ports and CCS ports. So whether you own a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Bolt or even a Tesla, you can get an adapter. Which covers the whole sector? So there are opportunities for us to increase accessibility to a wider demographic of EV owner through this process. But we are trying to be as diligent as we can in terms of identifying strategic locations, both for utilization, so high demand by people, whether they live in condo units because they can't charge at home, or whether it's an issue of range. So we want to be able to keep the one out in Lahaina because someone in Kahlua or Waaluku driving up to Lahaina might have some level of range anxiety, even though today's cars are far better in terms of range. The new Nissan, the 2018 Nissan Leaf has a 150 mile range, so driving from Waaluku to Lahaina is not a problem. And coming back, you're going to have a lot of mileage left on your vehicle. That's where it's going. And so the Chevy Bolt has about 250 mile range. And the new Nissan Leaf, the 2019, will have about 220 miles. So range really isn't an issue, but people still have that anxiety. And so putting these charging locations in very strategic places, people still have that same mentality that there's a gas station right around the corner. So until I feel as comfortable with a gas car knowing I have a gas station right around the corner, I want to be able to know that if I just so happened to forget to charge my car last night and have an emergency trip out to Lahaina, I want to know that there's a charger out there that just in case. So where are these stations located? What is the station, so to speak? Is it in a gas station? Is it freestanding? Is it in a shopping center parking lot? Where might I find one of these stations that's being acquired? Normally we want to find, because fast charging is, even though we call it fast charging, it still takes a little bit of time. How long does it take? To charge a Nissan Leaf, it may be from an empty battery to full, maybe about 30 to 45 minutes. A Tesla might take a little over an hour, hour 15 or so. So you still need to have some level of dedicated time to just sit and dwell. Which is why we look for areas that have that kind of other opportunities for people to do something else like shop or grab a cup of coffee and they can do other things while they wait for their car to be charged. So we do have a lot of retail locations, business locations that we typically focus on. You mentioned gas stations. We have been in a lot of conversations with a lot of the petroleum companies and their locations and so we've been working very closely with them to see what kind of opportunities as electric vehicles come online. Maybe there's different opportunities for them to look at different business models as well. Brandon Morioka, he's the general manager of the electrification of transportation at Hawaiian Electric. And on the phone from Maui, Jared Contino, he's the energy contract manager of Maui Electric. So we're going to take a short break, you guys. We'll come back and we'll talk about more incentives. What other kinds of incentives can we use to change out the whole system to electric cars? We'll be right back and you'll wish you stayed. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. Hey, Aloha, Stan Energyman here on Think Tech Hawaii where community matters. This is the place to come to think about all things energy. We talk about energy for the grid, energy for vehicles, energy in transportation, energy in maritime, energy in aviation. We have all kinds of things on our show but we always focus on hydrogen here in Hawaii because it's my favorite thing. That's what I like to do. But we talk about things that make a difference here in Hawaii, things that should be a big changer for Hawaii. And we hope that you'll join us every Friday at noon on Stan Energyman and take a look with us at new technologies and new thoughts on how we can get clean and green in Hawaii. Okay, in case you're wondering, this is Hawaii, the state of clean energy, runs at four o'clock every Wednesday. And we have today special guest, Brennan Morioka, general manager of the electrification of transportation at Hawaii Electric and on the phone from Maui, Jared Contino, the energy contract manager of Maui Electric. So I wanted to ask in terms of incentive, you know, it seems to me that if there is a charging station, maybe the ones that you're in the process of acquiring in Maui two blocks away and I don't know it, that's a problem. If I really want to feel comfortable, I would be able to find that place on my phone or something and go there and even if I didn't actually know it was there. Yeah, I mean, so trying to get as much information out there as possible is another aspect of our electrification or transportation program, educating the public, giving them as much information as they need to make certain choices. And knowing where some of these public chargers are available is one of the very important pieces of information for a driver to have. Right now, today, you can't just drive around the corner and expect that there's a gas station, like you do with a gas station. So you kind of need to make sure you're planning your travels out and identifying where you need to go for a public charger. So Hoan Electric has, we launched a Hoan Electric mobile app about a year ago and more recently we have since added our EV charger maps or DC fast charger locations on a very interactive map on that same app. So if you download the app to your smartphone, it's just the Hoan Electric mobile app, you can go and find where the closest DC fast charger is that Hoan Electric maintains and operates. But there's other apps out there as well. Plugshare has a very good app. And the State Department of Economic Development and Business and Tourism Energy Office, they've developed their own app as well that people can download. And it shows we're all, not just the fast chargers, but all the publicly available level 2 chargers are as well. And some of them are so advanced too that it also tells you what the rates for each of the different chargers you would pay if you're going to be charging at that specific one. Oh yeah, I'm going to ask you about rates. So if the electrified buses can get a special rate to incentivize that, and that's a really necessary incentive because they are expensive buggers, those double section buses, oh they're really expensive. But what about, you know, preferential rates or attractive rates or incentive rates, say for Maui, on all these charging stations you're developing? What is it going to cost me? Are they all the same? You mentioned, Brendan, that they're all different or some of them are different. How do you establish that? Is it the matter of, well, how do you establish that now? Every private provider of EV charging has their own different business model. A company like Volta offers charging for free because they make their monies off of advertising. Are they still a force in the marketplace? They have a presence. They have a larger presence on the mainland. I heard. But they have an established presence here. Our market is still a very early fledgling market in terms of EVs. Even though we are second in the country in terms of EVs per capita, the volume is still small. So for private sector businesses to make a business case for large capital investments in Hawaii is still very difficult, which is why the utility can play this role during this gap period while the market is building itself up. So am I going to see competitive signs like I do with the gas station? Four dollars today, three dollars tomorrow, whatever it is. Am I going to see competitive signs about what's going to take me to charge my car? You probably won't see the same thing as gas stations because gasoline prices fluctuate so rapidly and so often just because the price of oil changes. It's a very volatile market. Whereas the utility rates or electric rates are much more stable. We have to get them approved by the PUC. If we want to change them, we have to go into the PUC for applications. So our rates remain much more consistent and constant over a longer period of time. But with that said, we are much like we offered for the electric bus tariff in trying to incentivize the conversion of electric vehicles within to their fleet. We are going to be looking at preferential or specialized rates for EV owners with some of the public charging and maybe even charging at home. We need to kind of go through a process to develop different business cases to see what works, what is good for the EV customers but what is also good for all of our customers because we cannot have too much preference for one small sector of our customer market. Yeah, sure. It's a very delicate balance. I'm paying one rate for my home and another rate and the guy down the block who has an EV that I don't have is playing a preferential rate. I might not like that. But what about Maui? Is there any talk about this, Jared, about what rates are going to apply in the Maui circuit? That's the wrong way to do a circuit. So with regards to EV Ohana or just in... No, I mean, say, let me ask you this. What kinds of rates has the EV Ohana been using and how will that change, if at all, under the plan? So how EV Ohana works at the moment is a monthly membership where you essentially choose a tier of number of charging sessions you plan to have in the month. From, say, 20 charging sessions at the highest tier down to no charging sessions but paying a monthly fee to have access if you need it and then paying $5 per session. So that really depends on the model of electric vehicle you have, if you have charging at home and you just want to have the DC fast chargers available to you, et cetera. What you will see here on Maui, if the PUC approved our application to take over the eight charging sites, we will move to a time of use rate... Oh, as Brian was saying. So that's a much better incentive and it's much better for both sides of the equation, as a matter of fact. Yeah, you basically pay for what you use. Well, will it cost me less? I mean, as an EV owner, will it cost me less under the new system, do you think? It depends on how much you charge. Yeah, so actually the rates that we are authorized to offer at our fast chargers, which is a part of another pilot that the PUC had approved, they are slightly, they are higher than what you would pay at your home if you were to charge at home. So theoretically charging at home is still your best option if you're just looking for the cheapest charge. That's fair because for a charging station you have to make a capital investment. Correct. At home you don't. And you're paying for the convenience of access away from your home. Right. So we're number one trying to recover our costs for the expenses that we put into upgrade the infrastructure and put in the charging units. But you also pay for the convenience of having that charger away from your home. Will you have control, will the utility have a Maui and also here in a similar deal here, would you have control over the ultimate rates to the consumer? Or is that something that an individual operator of the charging station facility has controlled? So the rates that we are able to charge at these fast chargers are dictated by the PUC. We will put in an application for those rates and then they will either approve or deny what those rates are. So ultimately it's going to be statewide the same? No, each of our different service territories have different rates. So Oahu has one set of rates that HIKO was able to get approved. Maui Island has certain rates that HIKO gets. Just the way it has different rates now. But the island wide though. Correct. Correct. So are there any other incentives, I mean we're down in the last few minutes on the show, are there any other incentives that come out of this? Right now you can say we have a high per capita but we still only have, what, six, seven thousand cars? Eight thousand. Eight thousand. We had a big growth this year. There are other kinds of incentives that we believe need to be at least discussed in terms of getting through this early phase. We're still very much early in this whole development and getting people used to that initial cost of buying an EV, the charging infrastructure that people have to install. So we have been having some discussions and I think you'll see some of it come up in the next legislative session about what other kinds of... So number one, continuing the current incentives or current benefits like use of the HOV lane, if you have an EV, free parking benefits at public parking, at least for whatever short period of time, like free parking at a meter. Right now you can park at the airports up to a month for free. DOT is looking to request to change that or at least put a cap on that, which is understandable but there are other types of ways that we can incentivize EV adoption. How about the parking lot requirement that there's a ratio of parking stalls dedicated to electric cars and all? Is that going to change? No, I don't think it's going to be changing but there are many, many locations that are non-compliant and part of the issue is the cost of it, which is why the utility, Hoan Electric, Maui Electric, Hoan Electric, we're going to be looking probably at the end of 2019, maybe early 2020 in filing an application of what's called a make ready program where the utility actually has the ability to recover our costs for assisting site hosts with paying for some of that initial upfront infrastructure cost. Makes it kind of take some of the barriers away. We provide infrastructure up to a stub out and then the site host comes and puts the charger on so they still manage and maintain the charging system but we help get them to overcome some of the initial barriers of primarily cost of capital for installing infrastructure. Why is the utility interested in doing this? I mean in the case, for example, the Maui deal, why would the utility do this? You could have let it hang with someone else but instead you became proactive about it or at least when it was proposed to you, you said, yes, we'll do this and we'll go to the trouble of having it happen. How does it benefit you and why do you advocate for it? A number of reasons. I mean, for the utility, we believe that increased EV adoption and especially if we can get people to smart charge during the middle of the day will help the integration of clean renewable energy. So it can help us get to that 100% RPS mandate by 2045. So from a selfish standpoint, it helps us achieve that goal. But from a bigger perspective, looking at trying to be a partner and a member of the greater state community, electrification or transportation is just good for the state. Increasing EV adoption reduces the amount of carbon emissions in the air. That's because you have less fuel consumption. Less fuel consumption means we have greater energy security within our state. We can keep more of our money in our own economy rather than being one of our greatest exports. We send billions out of the state for petroleum. So there's interest by the utility in EOT but then there's also a greater interest in the state in EOT. So we just want to be a part of that solution and we want to be proactive. We know that the growth of electric cars on our roads or electric equipment in our economy is going to be rapidly increasing and we want to be ahead of the game so that we can provide the electricity for our customers when they need it, where they need it, rather than trying to play catch up and be reactive to that market. I know tax credits are always somewhat sensitive in the square building but I wonder if there's a chance we'll have a resumption of the tax credit for electric cars we used to have. I think you may see some discussion. I'm not sure how far that would go but there are because electric vehicles are often thought of as toys for the rich which is far from the truth. They are becoming far more affordable and especially when you look at a family trying to afford their overall energy wallet owning an electric vehicle helps you save money as a family because you save less on maintenance of that vehicle and paying for the fuel for the car is far less. So there are very large financial incentives for any family to own an electric vehicle but there are also ways to limit or control how you offer a tax credit or tax rebate so that it's not just on the more luxurious type EVs. We can focus some of this on the low to moderate income households. That's a good thought. I think that's a great thought. It's nice to have them resumed especially given the fact that the federal credit is declining now. Well it was sunset in a few years but there is a cap on manufacturers up to 250,000 electric vehicles and many of them so Tesla has either exceeded that number or is very close to it so that tax credit will start to diminish over time. GM is nearing that number with their votes and the votes and also Nissan is probably another year away with their leafs to hitting the 250,000 mark so at some point over the next year or two you are going to start seeing these federal tax credits start to either go away or diminish. But the point is we have to keep incentivizing people because if we incentivize them this is going to happen a lot faster. That's just human nature. So in Maui, Jared, the things that are happening in Maui what things that are happening in Maui would teach us here in Oahu how to do this. What would you like to show Brennan that he can copy here in Oahu? Well I'm not sure there's much that I could show Brennan that he wouldn't already know but in terms of exciting things that we're doing here the company does have a workplace charging pilot but we have taken it a step further here we've installed some level two chargers here at Maui Electric which are limited when the employees can actually use them either for employees only but it is actually trying to coincide with the solar peak because we have an abundance of solar electricity as we all well know so we are trying to really kind of harness that energy to use as much as we can during the daytime and I think once we can get this up and running and show that we could have a demonstrable impact then Brennan might think that we know what we're talking about over here. One other thing I wanted to ask you. So Hitachi the arrangement that created EV Ohana is ending. Why? I mean why did they want out? What does this tell us about the Hitachi presence? I know they were doing a lot of energy things in Maui not too long ago. What does it tell us about their analysis of Maui as a laboratory in a market? I'm not sure that it says too much about Hitachi in terms of not wanting to have a presence in the industry I think it's more that Hitachi chose to refocus and redirect where they were actually looking to have their business they're focusing from what I understand a lot more on at home customer solutions so what didn't really align with their objectives then was continuing with DC fast charging. They haven't made too many improvements or upgrades to their charging stations here because it really fits the purpose of what they were trying to accomplish. We have to give a lot of credit to Hitachi. They really did wonders for Maui in terms of getting that infrastructure installed really encouraging EV adoption here and really getting a lot of people to consider it as an option but I think their business focus has changed direction here so we can thank them and then hopefully we can take advantage of the opportunity and improve on what they've already done and just continue to move forward. Yeah it's our game. So we only have a minute left Brennan. Could you tell the people what you'd like to leave with them about this subject? Well I mean the utility Juan Electric companies all three of our companies across our three service territories we just want to make sure that our customers know that we are here as a resource. We want to be that go-to entity where if you have questions about electric vehicles about the vehicles themselves about charging we have resources on all of our web pages to help people go through educate themselves about the different charging types the different vehicles. We have an EV Watt tool plan that is on our web page that people can do a comparison without the pressure of a sales person telling them they should buy this or buy that. That's pretty interesting. Yeah so you can compare what a vehicle might cost compared to a gasoline car and it even shows you what your savings would be compared to what you would be paying for a gas car versus an electric car depending on how much how many miles you drive what your average electric bill is and so we have a lot of information out there they can also call us directly we take a lot of informational calls or questions so we just want to be there to help all of our customers regardless of their a commercial customer or a residential customer you know we want to be there as a trusted advisor for them. I want to be clear about one thing Brennan is a sincerely authentically nice guy I say that in every show because it occurs to me again and again what a nice guy Brennan is. Thanks for coming down Brennan. Always appreciate it. And I'm sure you're a nice guy too Jarrett. Jarrett is a very nice guy. Thank you both for participating. Appreciate it. Aloha. Happy New Year. Same to you. Happy New Year Jarrett. Thanks Jarrett.