 We're in Coronaville. That's where we are. The whole world is in Coronaville here on Think Tech. I'm Jay Fiedel. We have Cynthia Sinclair. We have Stephanie Dalton. We have Winston Welch, our regular panel. Oh, it's so nice to see you all guys together. And we're gonna talk about Coronaville. What's going on in Coronaville? It's very important that we track on this because it's actually the biggest story of our time and maybe of our lifetime. So we really got to drill down, got to figure it out. The title of the show today is, what about complacency? Why are people so complacent? You know, one of the reasons that Europe has done better and they have done much better than us and Asia and they have done much better than us. We are the worst in the world. You know, that's American exceptionalism, I guess. And a good part of that is complacency and a good part of that complacency is thank you to Donald J. Trump. Thank you, Dr. Trump. Yeah, so the question I put to you, Winston, is why? Why are people in this country so damn complacent? Well, yeah, American exceptionalism, that's an interesting one, if you tack it onto that. And when we're faced with the barrage of news that we get every single day, just before corona, just coming out of our national sphere in the last three and a half, four years, it's overwhelming. When you have someone then in political power that says, this is a hoax, it's not real, don't wear your mask, inject bleach, whatever, it confuses people, they don't know what's happening and then they just figure, I can't deal with it. And someone offers them an easy suggestion which says, let's open up, let's go have fun, let's eat out, let's do whatever we're gonna do. Brains are just getting fried and then they just figure, I'm gonna do it, it doesn't really matter and they give up. I think it's just overwhelm and exhaustion and confused messaging. So people don't really, they may know what to think but they are just, they're exhausted by everything else that's coming down the pike. All right, there's an answer. Stephanie, I'm gonna ask the question three times. Why? As I'm thinking about it and trying to understand it, I believe in this power issue and I have read some other things about power too. In fact, in relation to Trump's book, the first generation, the dad wanted to get famous, rich and then the next one is Donald, he gets famous and then the third round of the family or whatever it is, the group going forward is to get the power and so he certainly got that. So all I can see is that these people are seeing an advantage for them that they will not get. Otherwise, they need this kind of an ignoramus to lead them, lead them, leading on their terms, the whole nation and that's where it's so hard to accept and deal with and understand because it's so diametrically what we have as a list of beliefs. Anyway, so right now that's what I'm struggling with. There are other ways that it can be categorized but it doesn't really have enough explanatory power to be satisfactory. So I am listening and trying to learn. Well, we'll talk about it again in future shows. Cynthia, what do you think? What's the answer to my question? Why are they complacent? Well, there's a number of reasons but I think the biggest one comes from comments like this one that came from Donald Trump just the other day that 99% of cases are fine. There's no problem, it's no big deal. He's continued that narrative all the way through from the very beginning and we get conflicting messages from politicians and we do from scientists. And unfortunately, people are listening to the politicians. Some people are listening to the politicians instead of the scientists. Yeah. Okay, it seems to me that what's happened is as you all say, there's confusion in the air, confusion because it's been politicized because you can all confuse between your political views, your ideological views and science takes a back seat. Rationality takes a back seat. I can't believe that an ordinary rational American person or a person living in America would do these destructive things, destructive to himself or herself or destructive to neighbors. And science is clear, it tells us that, it tells us these are destructive things and yet they continue to do it. It's not a compliment to our population. It's certainly not a compliment to his base. I think you get the idea that his base is not rational, it's somewhere else. But let me go to my second question. Okay, Cynthia, we'll start with you. It's a why question again. Why is he giving mixed messages? Why can't he lead? Why can't he use scientific resources and experts in a way so to have a positive effect, a working effect on dealing with the virus? Why? We know that he can't, but why? Because he's all about the money, I believe, is one of the main reasons why. And so he wants to give any kind of manufacturing contracts to people that are his cronies, maybe donors. We know now for a fact that a lot of the PPP, the loans that came out went to people, the companies that are directly related and attached to Trump or his family. And so that's why he's all about the money. He doesn't think about the people. He doesn't really care about the people. He cares about the money and he cares about the powers. Oh, you just see him as a psychopath, that's all. And that's probably because you're gonna take a close read on Mary Trump's book next Tuesday. Oh, yes, but I already know. All that's gonna do is just give me more confirmation because I've already seen the signs that he is associated with half from the very beginning. She calls him a psychopath. She calls him a psychopath. Nine out of nine point narcissists. And I definitely agree with that. Okay, Stephanie, maybe you have a more optimistic view of it. Why does Donald Trump do these things? Why is he not leading us, not doing the obvious, easy things that would be able to combat the virus? Because I believe he's in it for himself. That's all it is. He's in there to get as much out of this as he can, which is what he thinks everybody else that was president did. He has no conception or understanding of the responsibility that the nation has given him. So he is about just making sure that he's out there no matter what it is, he will overcome any news. Yesterday it was the book. And so therefore we had the schools. I bet your schools wasn't on his agenda yet. I mean, it could have been on the agenda, but on the agenda are all these things. So as soon as something comes up that he may not want out there in full blast is here he comes with the next item that is gonna get everybody all concerned. Of course, and this is a pretty big one because it involves our children. So I mean, I just constantly now see it as him getting control over it to continue to address his own interest just like he did for us. Cynthia said all of those awards that just make my stomach churn that those high level awards amounts of money went places where they don't need them. And we've had people who can't eat and kids that are hungry. I mean, it's enough to just make you cry. It's out and why? And here I go again. And I icing on this miserable cake is the rule of law. We are obligated, the population. We Americans are obligated to go through this crisis with him because we're using the law to try and get out of it. And the law is not working well for us. So, but we're doing it anyway because we're rule of law. So we're gritting our teeth and we're gonna get to this election. Now, I don't know what's gonna happen then because then it's probably... That's another question. We're gonna talk about that. So Winston, what's happening here is 140,000 people are dying. That's a lot of people. That's more than one person on Fifth Avenue as it works out. It's almost intolerable, but it is the new normal. People are getting used to it. They're getting complacent. And Trump is therefore continuing his MO. Why do you think that he's incapable of dealing with this? Well, maybe that is the proverbial person on Fifth Avenue. The 140,000, the million it will be, whatever it is, that's the proverbial one person that he can stand in the middle of the street and shoot them and no one will do anything or say anything. Or if they do, it's hemming and hawing. But it's like Cynthia has said before that it's just master of distraction. Yesterday it was the CDC coming out and having Betsy DeVos pop up. Where has she been? And how does she come out of her cave for this issue? Because they wanna force people back in schools. Think about this, if you're a parent and there's an epidemic raging in your community, do you really wanna subject your children to that? Or if you're a teacher, do you wanna be forced back into that environment for a political agenda? And this is the same party that wanted to eviscerate the Department of Education for decades. And now it's just being used as a cudgel to force people back in. It is, you know, you do have, I saw Dr. Fauci comes out and he says what he's going to say. He's been sidelined, although he makes the headlines. But basically, there is an agenda here to get people back in that this idea may be saving the economy because that is one area where Donald Trump still is leading in the polls from what I can understand. And so he thinks if I get this thing back going and people going back to work, we've given up on the idea of containing this virus. It is just a matter of the Swedish model, but gone extreme because we don't have PPE. I've seen shortages again. We don't have health care system. So how does forcing him back into school help him? How does forcing these kids back into school help him? I think that it lets their parents go back to work. And then also they hold that, they're gonna hold that next. It'll be the Department of Labor saying, we're not giving, we will give some of you the second round of money, but for the rest of you, you got go back to work or you're not getting it because it doesn't matter whether you're working in the meat processing plant or wherever is a high risk environment, you're going back. So this is all in aid of the reopening. He wants to force the reopening even though his experts are telling him a bad idea. That might be part of it, but it's also, we remember that this is, this is the fellow that is the only one who can solve all of our problems. And self stated that I alone am the answer to, to, I want to cover that too. I'm the solution. That's how we realized that. I want to cover that too. That's part of Mary Trump's book. So much of this is part of Mary Trump's book. I can hardly wait to get it. So Stephanie, you're an educator and you can sort of see the classroom clearly. What does the classroom look like at a time like this? There have been a number of educators who have spoken up against his initiative, Trump's initiative to put the kids back in school. What do you think about it? Well, Arne Duncan is excellent when he comes on. He's the previous secretary of education under Obama's administration. So he's got very good, very helpful and knowledgeable and productive ways of talking about what can be done. But I want to just share one thing. I always had my teachers in training or two student teachers or whoever were working in the classroom for the first time to remember that when you look out and see that six year old or you see that 16 year old sitting, standing there, you just put in your head that there are two to four people behind him standing right behind him who you will hear from. And so you take those kids in your class and you multiply them by at least four because you're gonna have responsibility to keep them informed. So here we go again. What's happening with the virus? You bring in that one kid, you don't have four people standing behind him. You have every contact he's had over the last 24 hours just flowing out of those kids and into the soup of the infection that will be in your classroom. So in my thinking, it's even more dangerous than it's been described as being. It's highly dangerous and effective to bring all those kids back. And then the other thing is that we've been working for decades on sociocultural approaches into teaching in classrooms and changing them from the egg crate economies of what we know, rows and columns and everybody doing their own thing and being quiet about it. We've been working to move away from what's called the cemetery model of teaching and learning that work for us but doesn't work for everybody. But so, and here this is forcing us to go back to exactly the Charles Dickens classroom Betsy, Betsy knows what to do. By the way, her company has received a ton of money from the CARES Act, I guess you knew that. So I got a very hard question for you, Cynthia. This is a really, really, really, really, really hard question. I gotta think of my question now. Oh, yes. Okay, so if you accept the proposition, which I think we all imply that, that you can't really go back and reopen an economy unless you first deal with the virus, the epidemic. And then all kinds of things are possible. All kinds of optimism can surface. So the question I put you, this is a really hard one now, are you ready? Are you sitting down, Stephanie? Okay, what is Trump doing to deal with the virus? He is using it to separate the people. No, no, what is he affirmatively doing? What is the United States government doing to deal with this pandemic? Not really anything. It's leaving it up to the States. So the federal government isn't really doing anything, but silencing the scientists and putting out misinformation for us. And so I don't really see where they're going with this. They're over out buying some of the hospitals, the people that they're hoarding and not getting out to the people who need it. So what they're doing is they're turning it into a multimillion dollar business for themselves. Instead of using it as how can we help this country heal? How do we get control of this virus? Instead, what they're doing is, how can we make money off of this? How can we benefit from this? And that's all they think. Yeah, maybe I missed something, Winston. Maybe Stephanie missed something. Surely you can help us with this. What is the United States government doing to combat this pandemic? I mean, for example, one would expect that they would help the World Health Organization, that they would collaborate with it, they would give it money and resources. They would have their scientists work with their scientists. For example, you'd think of that, but I guess that's not happening. I'd like your comment on that, by the way. It's just a trick question. It's a trick question. What is the United States government doing to combat the virus on the assumption that you really can never have a reopening unless you first deal with the virus? Well, that is not the assumption that we're going on. I think it's just saying, open up, let the chips fall where they may definitely pull out of the World Health Organization, because science, who needs science when you have a gut reaction on how things should go? We're, you know, the worst thing is that we're really just, we're saying we don't care about a certain percentage of the population. And if we have to sacrifice some people too bad, now we're not like that in Hawaii. We're not sociopaths and we're not psychopaths. We realize, no, we're going to do our civic duty. We will wear masks. We will wear our seatbelts. We don't drink and drive. There's basic rules that we follow. We don't run through stop signs. It's here to protect all of us. Federal government, don't worry about it anymore. It's not coming from them. Don't look to them for guidance or anything else. We are not Germany. We are not Denmark and we are not Sweden. We can look to them for what's happening there, but they have very different systems. They have healthcare that is nationally based. They have excellent social support. We need to look at each other, at the states, at different countries, at different cities for their models and find what's real. I think I hear you saying we're not doing that now. We are doing chaos now. We're in chaos right now, but out of the chaos, hopefully, we'll be able to look around and have at least 50 different state models of what's going on and inside of those states, different city models, and then we have the models around the world. And this is a worldwide pandemic with at least 30 different strains. So it's different in different places. I don't know what Trump is going to do to stop additional deaths. He's not gonna do anything. We have deaths running at a couple, 3,000 a day. And we're over 3 million cases now. It's not, and what I hear from, everybody takes it differently because it's a door whistle thing, but what he's messaging is, if you die, it's okay. You're doing it for the country. You're a warrior, stiff up a lip. You're almost in a church-hillian fashion. Take it on the chin. You're doing it for us. More specifically, you're doing it for me. So I guess the question I put to you, Stephanie, is are people buying that? Fact is that he has politicized these rallies. He's politicized testing. He has politicized the numbers. I find it extraordinary that for the New York Times, this happened this week, to get the information necessary to determine the demographic of who is getting sick and who is dying, they had to sue the United States government for that information. You would think, would you not, that that would be available to everyone in the time of a pandemic, but no, the government was not releasing it. And the Times had to go to court, get an order, and get that information. And lo and behold, they found that some extraordinary percentage of the cases were black and brown. And so what you have is not only lying, but the secreting of information. Are people getting the message on that? Do they understand? How does that affect us? The fact that this government, our government is lying to us? Well, I think that the smart people, black and brown, who are getting it, and they are reactive, and they've made some difference. And I think we owe them a lot to bringing the nation around, to pointing to a democratic candidate that could make it and could serve us in the capacity of our chief executive. So I think them, I think that they're mostly responsible for getting us unified. Okay, those of us who are interested in change. So what about those, what about those anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000 people who showed up in Tulsa and didn't wear masks just like their esteemed leader? And then now we have a spike in Tulsa that is beyond anything they've had before. And a lot of people in Tulsa knew this was gonna happen, but the people in that rally apparently did. Do you think they know now? Do you think the world is taking note? Do you think the states in which these spikes are now happening to extraordinary levels? Do you think they know to wear masks? Do you think they know to avoid crowds? So they've got the aphrodisiac of power when they go there. And then it depends on when the smarts kick in into power. So when there are now analytic skills kick in and open the window within the power zone. So these are people who are committed and powerful now. And they see this as taking, finally their system, their values, ethos is represented. So, but my concern is of course we're all concerned about this, but he has all of the variables out there on the table and he's exquisite at doing this obviously for all his life, which we'll find out more about in the book. But it's like Chairman Mao. First of all, you take away all the anybody that's got any training in thinking or taking away any belief in, and so what he has done in his own way, I see is very much like Mao should have been here to, he didn't even have to say communism to get everybody into the situation. Well, Stephanie, do you think it's breaking? I'm sorry, Cynthia, do you think it's breaking down? I mean, for example, I read on the Hill this morning that there's gonna be a Q&A session among the regular suspects that is Fauci Berks and what's the name, Redfield. And those guys are gonna answer questions and Trump won't be there for the press. And they're probably gonna talk about the CDC finding that it's spread now not by droplets, but by aerosol. I think that's maybe it's World Health Organization, but that is scarier still. And what I get is the possibility that maybe some of those scientists are kind of, they have the public ear. Trump is still at least on the surface supporting Fauci. Maybe they're shoving off from him. Maybe they're taking their own initiative a little bit. Does that gonna make any difference? Well, I would hope so, but I'm afraid that the people that are following Trump the way they do and remember we've talked before about that Dunning-Kruger effect where these people are psychologically tied to him and can't see past what he says, what Trump says. So they don't hear the scientists. They just shut them out, turn them off. Oh, it's just that guy. Oh, well, forget it. He says the opposite of what our hero says, so we're not gonna listen. And that's, unfortunately, I think what's happening. So there's a certain swap of people that they're not. But as we get closer to the election, Cynthia, it's gonna go from 100 and what is it now? Almost 140 to 150, 60, who knows what? In the next few months, that's undeniable. And it's also pretty obvious that it's Trump's fault. He's the one who's done nothing and he's the one who's lied. Don't you think that's gonna affect the election? Don't you think that's gonna shrink the base? I would hope so, but I don't really know. Like I said, there's so many things that are involved psychologically that makes them tied to him. So maybe it'll shrink some of the outer layers of the base, right? But like we've got Redfield coming out yesterday, Pence said at the briefing that they are gonna redo the guidelines, the CDC guidelines for opening the school. And then Redfield comes out today and says, no, we're not. We're not gonna change those guidelines. And the guidelines, if you look at them, are very specific. They don't even take account for the teachers to stay safe, which is one of the things that in all of this planning, it seems like they've left the teachers out of all of it, out of the dialogue, out of the whole entire process. But they hadn't left us out of the dialogue, wearing the dialogue, you know what I mean? So Winston, we're almost out of time and I wanted you to take a speculative view into the future and tell us what's, I'm sorry, Cynthia, go ahead. Well, I think the numbers are gonna be manipulated. I think they're already being manipulated because we had all of this real steady growth in all the numbers, steady growth, steady growth. Then all of a sudden it stopped and it's only growing very slowly. And I think with all these crazy spikes we've got going on, how is it that our numbers aren't getting bigger too? And so I think, you know, the New York Times maybe needs to take them back to court and get them to rerelease the numbers again. Because I don't think we're really getting that true picture of what's happening. No, remember that strange comment, I think it was Redfield that said that for every case it's reported, there's 10 that are not. So yeah, so it's pretty serious if that's so. But I don't know what's so anymore. And I wonder, and this is a really hard question too, Winston, what's gonna happen here? What's gonna happen over the next two weeks? Because Trump will be looking to satisfy his pathological urges. He'd be looking to do things that will distract people and also help him in the perception of maybe those less educated among us that they should stay with him in the base and vote for him. He's gonna be pushing on voting rights. There's a bunch of cases coming up to the Supreme Court. I don't know when they're gonna get heard, but what do you think the next great big news story or distraction is around coronavirus? I think he'll continue to avoid it. And I think he's going to, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm not doing that to me. I think he's going to avoid it. And I think he's going to double down on all the stuff he's saying about the protest group. Calling them traitors, calling them terrorists, calling them, these are just protestors, not specifically the rioters, but the protestors are all one together. And I think he's gonna go after them even more and pump them up to be the enemy. And he's going to be back instead of the virus. If we put it another way, Winston, what do you think? I think I have amazingly talented and smart co-guests on this show. And I'm always pleased to be in their company. You know, we can't, if we don't expect a lot, we won't be disappointed. And if, you know, if... That's terrible that you said that. Well, you know, but it's true. Let's focus on what we can do locally, locally like as in me going to the store and me helping my neighbor and in our state. That's all we can do at this point. And if you believe in God, then pray. And if you don't, then if you do, then vote either way. Okay, well, let me say that there's a lot of lawyers on the mainland who are filing amicus briefs in various cases. There's a lot of people, maybe they're not in parades. Maybe that's too hard these days. But they're speaking about it and we're speaking about it and we don't hold, we don't hold up, we're pretty candid, I must say. Congratulations to us. But I wanna give you the last opportunity, Stephanie. Say something about what's gonna happen here. How are we gonna be doing next week to week after? Is it gonna get better or worse? Not good, because one of the problems is Fox News. Okay, what used to be 20th Century Fox, a bounded broadcaster. They are not telling these people, and this is the only channel that's watched. According to what I read in the papers, but also people will just be visited if you say, just check out CNN, you know the other chart up there, and they show some data. But Fox is not doing anybody any favors because they're misleading people. They have no idea of the point Cynthia made, the expectations are as Winston says, but they're not supported by any data. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? You're gonna be in serious bad trouble until we get to the election or he has to resign or some hero emerges. Okay, Mitt or whoever, something is gonna happen because we still maybe have a little bit too much time, maybe not. I mean, we're doing good hanging on here in the canoe. That's what we're doing. We're hanging on while people are dying. Well, Cynthia, let me give you one last shot at it. You know, maybe a 30 second shot. There are people dying every day. I guess, and there are those who argue that the actual death rate is less than it was a few weeks ago, even though the case rate is way, way higher. Does this encourage you in some way? Is this something that makes you a little more optimistic? No, just the opposite. I'm absolutely the opposite of optimistic. I'm terrified because the more I see him walk away from all of it and the more I see him discounting the science the more terrified I become. Okay, well, I guess that leaves it terrified. I don't know if that's the consensus, but it's certainly in the room. And so holding right there in that point about being terrified, gosh, let's see what happens this week. And let's look beyond into the greater global issue here the pandemic to see where the dots are connecting and what is happening, not only the US but humanity, not only in terms of disease but the social effect and the political effect and the economic effect. I have to go now. Goodbye, Winston. Goodbye, Stephanie. Goodbye, Cynthia. Thank you very much. Thank you, mahalo.