 In this episode, we'll be talking about how do you land their perfect service design job. We'll also talk about how do you actually plan for fulfilling career after you've been hired. Finally, we'll talk about what organizations actually think they are hiring service designers. Here's the guests for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi everyone. This is Angela Yeh, and this is the Service Design Show. Hi, I'm Mark, and welcome to the Service Design Show. This show is all about helping you to build organizations who put people at the heart of their business. The guest in this episode is Angela Yeh. Angela has over 20 years of experience matching employers and designers, and in this episode, we'll talk about how we can close the gap between what designers want and what corporate organizations want. Angela has a really interesting perspective on that. I think a unique perspective in the design field, and she's going to share that with us in this episode. If you're new to this channel and would like to level up your service design career even further, make sure to click that subscribe button as we bring new videos at least once a week. That's all for the introduction, and now let's quickly jump into the talk with Angela. Welcome to the show, Angela. Hi, Mark. Thanks for having me. Awesome to have you on. I really love episodes where we're going on the fringes of service design, because that's what we learned the most, and in this episode, we'll definitely be doing that. Angela, for the people who don't know who you are, could you give a 30-second introduction? Sure. I'm the founder of two businesses, Yay Ideology, which is an executive recruitment firm specializing in design, strategy, and innovation. We've been recruiting in this space with corporations and consultancies for more than 13 years, but myself, I've been in this space recruiting for quite some time. By the way, prior to that, I was a designer design director. The other company that I founded is Thrive for Design, and it's an executive coaching program for professionals in this industry. People who are wanting to pivot and succeed rapidly in this industry. It's really interesting, because you're in the design industry, but also outside of the design industry. You're like the matchmaker, or you have at least a completely different perspective on design, I think, right? Yeah. So, most people have been in this industry in some sector, some category, evolving within it. My space, I've been watching, let's say, the platform and the world of design as it evolves throughout all of these years. So, it's fascinating. Super interesting. Yeah. Can't wait to hear your stories. Angela, this is called a service design show. You're not a service designer by any means, but do you actually remember when you got in touch with it? Have you ever heard that term? And when? Well, and then, just so you know, my undergrad was psychology with a minor in sculpture, and then I got my master's in industrial design at Pratt Institute. So, having been in an industry as a design and design director, I've seen this industry evolve. And I remember, well, let's talk about this. I remember when the word research, design research first came about. I remember when the first term design strategy came about. And then, I'd say about 15 years ago, service design became a terminology in itself. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's been a space to itself. It's interesting. It's still one of the newer burgeoning categories of design, you know? And it's fascinating who steps into it. Sometimes people come into it from time, some from business. You said like about 15 years ago, so that will be about 2004, 2005, do you remember in which context that was? Where did you pick it up? Well, you know, I think the terminology comes from the practitioners. I mean, in this industry, people in this space were starting to define what they were focusing on, right? There were people who were crafting an expertise far before business understood the terminology. And in fact, you know, there's a debate about sometimes are you working on something if it's human-centered design or is it service design or is it experiential design? It's interesting, because sometimes it depends on who that practitioner is and their perspective, right? Their optics. We love those discussions. Angela, all right, awesome. You gave me some really interesting topics and I think they will be super valuable for anyone watching and listening because there are the non-typical topics on the service design show. We're going to do an interview, Jess. Are you ready? Yeah, let's do it. All right. Topic number one, here it comes. It's called relating design. And do we have a question starter and can you show it up? Let's see, relating design. Why? Why relating design, right? So let's talk about relating to design as I would imagine your audience has mostly professionals building their career, right? And when you talk to employers, clients, I think the biggest challenge is why do you bother teaching employers and clients how to relate to design? I think that most businesses today have a rudimentary understanding what design is. It comes from where they've first felt the need for assistance for some businesses. It could be aesthetic driven for some, it's technology, is it service, is it systems, right? But their knowledge of what design or strategy or innovation, depending on their optics, their perspective, it only goes so far. A lot of times I think companies don't realize what full impact that design can bring to the table, right? And I think it's so critical when you're dealing with any client to always know how much they're aware, right? That's the first step. But as professionals, I guess that, you know, my space is understanding the difference. Let me just say that I sit between employers and clients and talent. So there's a gap in that, you sit in that nexus, right? There's a gap in that conversation. And also we've also sat between business and design. So in some respects, the language there, the disconnect, right? So you really need to understand what that your counterpart, their level of understanding is, right? So that you can have reference yourself. So you mentioned, you're sitting in the gap between the employer and the designer. Like, could you describe that gap? And like, what is the maybe the most common mistake designers make when trying to bridge that gap? Yes. So we have companies that come to us from all backgrounds, all sectors, all sizes, right? Corporations and consultancies. Corporations meaning not the consulting space, right? And the biggest quandary that employers tend to have and or clients that they're looking for an agency for us to introduce one, they say to us, I can't tell the difference from one individual to another. And most common line that we've heard is that someone said to us once from a VP executive to mid-level talent, entry-level talent, they say the same thing. They all say, I'm a designer and I solve problems, right? This is one of the most popular, you know, lines that we've all had in design to start with. But as this industry has grown so fast, you cannot stay at that level of conversation, right? You need to really know where do you excel? What space, are you literally in the space of service design or is it user experience? Is it, you know, experiential design? Is it design research, right? So is one of the common mistakes that we're not able to be more specific about our craft and the value we're delivering and clearly articulating that? Absolutely. And at the other side of that, on the other side, listening to talent, I completely understand, right? Because the other side of the story, we have talent that say, I am not, just because I've been in the world of CPG, I'm not gonna be in that space forever. Just because I've solved the problem in healthcare, I'm not gonna stay in that space forever, right? How do people evolve is an interesting question. And I would say that, in fact, professionals in these spaces evolve quite a bit and in fact pivot quite a bit, much more than in any category, I'd say. You know, if I were to, you know, someone's in accounting or in law or in medicine, they kind of tend to stay in their sector and move linearly, right? Straight down their path. Yeah, and I think we'll get to pass in a moment but I've still puzzled like with trying to relate design to an employer or a client, like what are, could you give us some tips and tricks, maybe questions that we should be asking if we're sitting next to an employer that help us to relate to them? I think one of the biggest things that professionals tend to tell us when we have people coming to look for an opportunity or coaching and navigating their career, one of the most common things people tell us is they say, I would love to be in a company where the corporation or, you know, let's just talk about the corporate side because there's so many people interested in that track, right? I would love to be in the corporate side where the corporation has a high awareness of design and a full respect for it incredible amount of investment in it so that I can just do my craft, I can just execute and do what I love doing, right? Well, what people don't realize is if you really wanna navigate and progress in your career, you want to be able to speak to people who don't have a high awareness of what design is that don't necessarily know how to invest in design just yet, right? They need to really speak to that first basic, you know, level customer, right? And to me, that's one of those skills that are absolutely invaluable. In fact, the people we know that are really capable of moving up the ladder, those people will always know how to speak to any denominator of clientele, right? That to me is one of the biggest issues. Most people want that comfy environment where the corporation spends, you know, hundreds and thousands of dollars, big teams of talent, right? But actually, there are some really pivotal career moves where you go to a company and you're one of the first ones to begin this and think about how many companies today while there are so many stories about which corporations know how to invest in design, there are hundreds and thousands of companies that are still at that nascent level of awareness. Right, right. We've had some people on the show who are like the first and still often the only service designer in their organization, even though they were big. So it's, yeah. You touched up on something that relates to the second topic. And let me hold it up because I think it's a good moment to move into that. This topic is called Creative Career and you mentioned something about navigating your career and do you have a question starter? I do. Okay. How can we, right? How can we create a career where we're thriving? Let me just say that when a corporation finally works with a top consultancy, let's say someone like IDO, right, or Frog, do you think it will poorly of that corporation when they finally worked with that corp consultancy and they finally solved their problem? Or do you think they have gone to the best experts to figure it out, right? So the same thing for professionals, employers, corporations, they need to find the best talent, right? But what employers look for, their unicorn, their best candidates, it's not necessarily what, when they're looking for talent, they're not necessarily looking for designers, everyone that's out there, right? You need to know if you're the ideal candidate for them. Particularly outside of that, you need to understand when those opportunities are right for you. And I understand that, how do you pick, right? How do you choose? So you have to really understand it's not just the size of the company, it's not just how many years have invested in it, you really have to understand what is the gift that you have? What are you looking to grow, right? How are you looking to evolve so that you can identify the best opportunity? Those are really good questions that I also sort of had, was following on, like, okay, knowing what you want and what you're good at and where you wanna be heading, like, that makes it easy to navigate your creative career. But what I've heard in some of the best episodes is that there isn't like a typical career path for designers, it's hard to find role models, it's hard to sort of reverse engineer where you wanna be. I can't move up in the organization, I can't move left and right. So what is your experience with designers? We just start at a corporate and then need to want to move to the next stage of their career. So let me just say that more than 15 years working with professionals in this space, right? There, most people I don't think realize their issues until they are midway in their career, at least seven to 10, 15 years in. Then they start to realize that they're finding some issues. What we realize that in any company, any sector starting off in an industry is easier, right? Because in any company, let's say the hierarchy of any company, a typical pyramid, how many people do they need at the mass level a lot, right? So the bar is a lot easier. Let's say it's like entering in a marathon, every company has one, everybody can, you know, register and win, doesn't matter how fast to some degree, as long as you're participating in some sense. But as you get to that final stage in your career and you're wanting to move to that top sector, it gets really hard. Harder in the sense that both the employer have much more rigorous standards for what they're looking for, but what people don't realize is for yourselves as professionals, people also, their requirements are higher. They need to know exactly where they wanna go rather than wander as in in the earlier years where you can have the affordability to kind of, you know, organically discover, right? So I think it's part and parcel following intuition of what is what attracts you. We find people that don't follow their career, don't follow what they're really passionate about. And then we have people where they're following a ladder, a straight up ladder and they're trying to evolve to the next step. A lot of times professionals don't understand what it takes to get to those final levels to stay in this industry. And by the way, it's a very hard industry. It's more competitive today than it has been ever. There are more people coming into this industry than there are real viable opportunities. So you have to really be aware of how you yourself are progressing, be absolutely aware of what you're striving for, how you're reaching out networking. I think the traditional methods of networking don't work today. I think you really need to hear and listen to yourself and understand what's important to you. Yeah. So I was like wondering, knowing that people run into these issues if they are seven, eight, 10 years down their career path knowing that what is it that junior designers getting into this field can do today to actually start planning for what's going to happen in eight years? Yeah. What's your take on that? When you start planning for junior designers, I would say I think at early stages of junior designer, you want to be open to try and taste the cornucopia of all the different opportunities, right? That is the stage to be at the buffet table, let's say, and try a little bit of everything to see or in research what's out there through your networking, through your discussions. I think that at the earlier stages, it's almost through serendipity of tasting what's out there. Now, from the other perspective, I will tell you in all the employers, in all the clients that we've ever talked to that want experts, it's in that high level expertise is where it's really hard for them to find the right people. And on the inverse, we have high level talent where executives are evolving their career and trying to pick and select the right type of opportunity where they can really excel and continue to sustain success in this industry, right? That's where it's really, really hard. I have employers that know everyone in the industry, but yet it's hard for them to determine which candidates are right for them. What makes it so hard? It's hard because I think from a creative standpoint, again, creatives like to leave the door open and say, I'm an expert and I can solve any problem. But to really know where you're, the quality of how you execute and the style and the quality of your optics, I think it's really important to know that. Because I think each individual will bring, let's say, like musicians, right? Let's say you had different musicians that were jazz. You all create the same song in a different tone. The result would still be beautiful and different. And the same thing in music, we create different results, right? And for different clients, it's not about necessarily numbers, right? It's not necessarily about revenue. So you really need to understand how you're creating success for your clients, how you're delivering results. And I guess, yeah, this is what you help people to do, right? That's the core of your, that's the core of your servers, right? Yeah, I mean, to ask these questions to figure that out. Yeah, I mean, for me, this is where my optics come in. This is where, for years, understanding talent. We have clients that have been wanting to evolve their candidates. And it started with top-level candidates that wanted to apply for certain opportunities and not being able to make it. And then trying to understand how to choose. Like at every step of the career process, let's say interviewing, there are some people that got stuck at not even knowing where to turn. And then there's some people where they can't even gain opportunity to have the door open. And we have some customers that we work with where they have too many opportunities coming to them, but they're the wrong ones. Right, right. Or then people who get into opportunities that seem amazing because everybody knows them, but then they get into these opportunities and then the situation isn't what it seems. How do you evolve and progress within a company? And on the inverse, we have employers who say, we've got a phenomenal team of talent. How do we cultivate them? How do they grow them to the next level? And that's exactly, I think, our third topic. Because it's about hiring design talent. Do you have a question around this one? Yes. Well, I wasn't gonna pull up how can we, but when will? So let me talk about when will, right? Part second half of this question, building and hiring talent, creative talent is the first stage a company's going to. When they first work with a consultancy, the consultancy lands this beautiful deck on their lap and they say, wow, how do we insert this credible initiative and implement it? And then it doesn't. So then they think, when will this happen? So then they bring in design talent. Oftentimes, first stage of building and hiring design talent doesn't necessarily go so well. When it comes to management, the biggest question they get from the C-suite is, when will we see results? When will we see results from this amazing design talent team? You tell me, they're the best of the best, right? But sometimes when we've seen this with mergers and acquisitions, we've seen that this is a big trend, right? When these consulting firms, manager and consulting firms, or holding firms acquire these design teams, there has to be culture match, right? Collectively, that's an issue. But individually, you have to understand the team design talent's different. There's a different kind of an incentive that's required. And I think that when business treats design talent as traditional business talent, they're not necessarily gonna attract them the right way. And when they hire them, they may not bring the same quality of results the right way, and worse, hey. So traditional business talent and traditional design talent, what's the difference for you? Let me just say that the methods of general MBA, the general language of business, those incentives don't work. We have corporations that will come to us and say, we want the best of the best. And this is a line that a lot of companies will, that has been used quite a lot. But corporations say, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. You will be able to take this product category and transform it, and creatives know this line, right? Then they'll talk about how, well, people have been with our company 30 years now, right? And as creatives, creatives go, okay, that's great. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for rapid growth and rapid progression. I want to keep evolving. I want to keep bringing impact, right? The incentives that traditional business offers design isn't always the right thing that will be attractive to a creative. It's like someone, one of our creative leads once said to us, it's like they're trying to feed beef to a unicorn. So have you seen some companies that are doing it right, that are hiring design talent in the right way? The exceptions, who are the exceptions and what are they doing? We all know the corporations that have been investing in design for years, right? The PNGs, the PepsiCo, the IBMs, the Uber's, the Amazons. But, and here's another thing though, for those companies, they have spent millions of dollars understanding this space, understanding the talent in this space. And here's another pattern that we've seen is most people, almost everyone we talk to, if they're in a certain sector, they will talk about that one to top three companies within their category. But what they don't realize is there are so many corporations that need design leadership, that need service design, they need your optics, right? They need your help, but yet so many of them don't even know the terminology to find talent, to find this talent, right? So in the examples of the IBMs, the capital ones, those become pretty boring pretty soon, right? And are you seeing like, is there a shift going on in how companies, I hope so, how companies are approaching to building and cultivating design teams? Well, there's a mass trend going on now where businesses are investing in design, right? So you're seeing so many corporations everywhere, building an innovation lab, hiring creatives, as many, right, as possible. But we hear different kinds of stories from people where the title, the job description, the interview process is amazing. And then when they get in, they realize I've, there was one company, for instance, how many corporations now say that they're a startup more than 10 years in and they're multiple rounds of funding and tens of thousands of people on their company now, right? And they're still a startup. And I remember one candidate where he got in and he said, this is the job of a lifetime. Everyone in all of my colleagues are envious, right? And he goes in less than three months in, he's building his team, he's bringing great results. Even at that earlier stage, I mean, you can't be launching everything, but immediately speaking to the founders and the founders are like, great, you've done a great job. Now just do what they did, you know? So you really have to listen to see how much the company is looking to invest in your capability. Right, and that's like the question, I think that is super relevant, to understand how many designers have you had before? What is your design heritage? Where is it? What's more, right, exactly. How much do they really understand what it takes for design to impact, right? Because they're all trying to, can we get this done in quarter two, you know, in so many months, right? What's the quality of the results that they're ready to invest in? And I think let's talk about investment. Like what are they truly going to, not just hiring a person, but let's say if someone's interviewing, don't just to say, you know, talk about what your compensation is, but really understand what will it take for them to truly invest in something that results their quality, right? And yeah, and it's like you said, there are many companies who are still not in the, you are still at the early maturity stage of this. So we can't expect all to get into companies that fully impressed design, but at least we should be asking questions that allow us to make a better judgment in what we're getting ourselves into, right? And it's not about maturity, of how long they've been doing it. It's more of the willingness. No matter what stage companies they're at, they all need- How committed are they? We're change agents, right? This space that we're in, we're change agents, we're pioneers. So you're gonna be dealing with companies that are at different stages of awareness of design, regardless of how much they've been investing in the design throughout the company's history, it's how much are they willing to go the distance for quality results, right? Awesome advice, Angela. I always give my guests the opportunity to ask us a question. The viewers, the listeners of the show, is there anything that you'd like us to, what is the English word chew up on? Think about- Do I ask it a viewer of the audience? Yeah, the audience. So the people, what is it that we can think about? I would ask people to look around you and look in your daily life, right? Not just at what's popular, but to look everywhere and tell me where you think you see the need for service design. Where is the most uncommon place, right? And sometimes maybe the most challenging spaces. Let's look for that. Because I think this industry has such an incredible ability, we've such an incredible capability with this type of optics. There's so many problems to be solved rather than just go for what's popular, look around for the more uncommon problems to be solved. That could be a pretty long list, but I challenge everyone now watching and listening to this to actually contribute. Angela, thanks so much for sharing your perspective on this. I learned a lot and I think we can learn a lot more. I'll include all the links to your profiles, your programs, your company down below in the show notes if people want to learn more. Thanks for making the time and sharing this with us. Thank you so much for having me, Mark. So what is your take on Angela's question? Where do we actually need service design? Leave a comment down below and I'm expecting a lot of comments this time. If you enjoyed this episode, click that like button and don't forget to share it with somebody who might enjoy it as well. 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