 Have the guts To be yourself All right, you know, it's like you're the same right here be yourself Everyone else is already taken by Oscar. What coincidence, okay? No, it's true. It's like have to be yourself And if you don't know who you are Besides playing a role find out who you really are Dr. Thomas Uli is my guest on this episode of inside ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine Thomas is the founder managing director and curator of motivate to be his a human business architect and coach for agile company and project transformation With more than 25 years of experience in various industries and organizations His vision is to help business establish itself as a new global normal Normal within 10 years He is currently accompanying alliance germany as an agile transformation coach He has a regular speaker at conferences worldwide including nasa global congress of the project management institute The quality lounge at the world economic form corporate social responsibility form his new book human business Living and working in the digital age will be published in november 2020 I was lucky and fortunate enough to receive a an advanced copy of that From the help of the lock and was able to review it and am in line with the thinking And the progressive nature of this book. It is only available in german right now and we'll Ask and find out if we can maybe Hear about an english version or copy coming in the near future He is also the author of the internationally recognized reference book leadership principles for project success A crc press out of new york city in 2011 thomas holds a phd in international studies from the university of miami united states of america And an ma in economics from washington university in st. louis In his spare time. He loves the outdoor activities of running hiking and climbing skiing and snowboarding He holds a second dan black belt in taekwondo practices Then yasa yoga and loves to dance tango argentino Welcome to the show thomas is so good to have you here Well, thank you so much for the kind work and introduction. It's a great honor to be here with you We know each other and so i want to unpack this for my listeners. Well Our paths have crossed a numerous amount of times But we got the chance to speak in davos at the at the forum at the world economic forum I believe it was in Somewhere in the open forum or hotel as we're crossing paths and in the hallway We spoke a little bit and then we've seen each other different events and things around Always running around like crazy being busy trying to promote our our uh future of work human business models and and uh environment and and kind of positive impacts on the world and so i'm glad that we we got the chance to to uh have this podcast today and kind of Let our listeners know what you've been involved in what's going on and and um There's some interesting things happening. So during a pandemic you're Launching a book, you know, you're getting ready or I don't even think we can call it the end of the pandemic yet now And so that that's got to be a challenge in and of itself Probably it was nice to to prepare and get things ready during this pause um to launch uh do a book but uh How how have you weathered this whole pandemic time? How has it been for you? Well, actually was uh, well first I was shocked because at that time I still was running my own business And I thought like hey, let's walk my own talk because in my book I talked about reframing you know asking different questions So I said like well, how can it be an opportunity? And I thought like well, whatever just starts my own online dialogue kind of like a podcast On love life and work and the digital age And so I had like a few sessions, you know where we talked about we had subjects like Boys don't cry men do we talked about of crazy human business We talked about why the future is female. For example, we talked about the death of human resources versus human recognition number of topics and so it was actually a time of Focusing on the essentials and also reflecting what really matters That's beautiful. So also during this time of you know the corona A lot of the digital age technology and Things came out. I mean you I guess you're you're doing this type of a podcast But you know everybody shifted to working from home working online kind of having these online meetings um and it kind of really shot up these conferences online seminars like mushrooms and um There's this question that ties nicely To your book and and to thought Can we still be human in the digital age? Is this digitization taking over our lives? People I speak speak to they always say damn. I'm working a lot more now than I did before Yeah, I look forward to going to office and only giving them eight hours a day and instead now I'm Well to 14 hours a day. I'm not even taking lunch breaks Well, I believe actually the digital age is uh, it's not really a threat to us humans. Uh, instead I see it as a Wonderful chance for us to become human again Um, you know, there are there are two questions which are also raised in the book Which can make all the difference. I can ask What will the future look like especially, you know in the digital age with all the technology and what have you That's one thing and when we ask this question, we have to react. We become victims or become objects of change Or we can ask the question How do we want to live in the digital age? I mean basically the same question and yet completely different because it opens a creative space We no longer objects, but we are becoming agents of change The difficult thing about this question is We have to know who we are and what we really want So we have to move away from the notion. We are a human resource Especially we're human being and I think the pandemic actually has taught us more than ever before or reminded us that social relationships do matter And we have to look after our own health And it's very important and then asking the question Well, not only how can we get through this, but how do you want to live afterwards? And I think what what I've seen what I've observed was that quite two people they They spent more time with their family. They spent more time out in nature Other business things issues became less important And I think this if this is kind of like what we can expect in the near future I think it's a good sign, but we have to start with us I totally agree. I'm aligned with you and it's really bubbling to serve us more and more Every single day and over the years when we last saw each other this year at Davos at the forum Boy the year started out with a bang It was a Decade of action a lot of activities and momentum and also a big shift in this More human more environmental concerns more sustainability more You know awareness centered, you know, let's take a deep breath. Let's get aligned or let's Make sure that we're thinking in the right direction and at Davos Person Harris was there Speaking about the center for humane technology and talking about how technology really Shouldn't be the the facebook's and google's and in all this stealing of data or using us as a Human capital so to say but more moving in the shift. How can we make it more humane and And and and change the way we're going so I really I like that as well The I want to kind of go back and have even unpack more because you only tickled the surface um, I wanted To know how you've weathered this pandemic and you kind of touched upon it You've been working on this obviously to write a book and to be involved in this in this thought process of You know human business For a long time which should give you some resilience or some sustainability or some kind of uh, you know preparedness for the future of work the future of Of where we're at now Did it do any of that that were you able to weather this time better and where we're uh The people start reaching out to you like crazy and say hey You've been talking or writing about this for a while or referencing us Now we're here. Holy hell. I'm not prepared. You know, uh, looking to you for help or can can help us a little more there Uh, well it was kind of well. Yes. I did add a good pipeline of of uh potential customers But then during due to the pandemic, they never reached the decisions everything was put on hold And where i'm working right now, I do try to implement, you know, the concept of the principles of human business Into large organizations. You can say one project at a time in though on the executive level and on talking also with the teams, etc but um Now what what what I have learned against like what I mentioned earlier? Um, this pandemic in a crisis We tend to look for quick solutions We have the solution mindset and I think people say well having them with solution mindset is a good thing. Um I would I dare to disagree Because when we people when they have a solution mindset, they usually use the tools of the past And they use the tools that have maybe even caused a crisis So why do you want to use these these tools again? Um, we have to do something different. Um, the former secretary of state of the united states, uh, melan augreid She explained. I think it was also. I don't know what speech it was. She said well, we have to we want to tackle problems of the 21st century And we use our thinking of the 20th century And institutions of the 19th century And there is a mismatch So we have to do something different So yes, we can go one step at a time using all paradigm Or we ask the question again. How do we want to live? What's our vision? We have to know where we're coming from but what's our vision? And once we have this vision, then we say, okay, what's the next step we can take? And then we can really we can actually will realize There's so many things we can use and do in order to move this this direction And technology is one of these tools, you know, but you have to have a clear vision and during the pandemic It came to me. I mean to me was, you know, the capable of more obvious how important this is And as you I think what I don't know if I mentioned in the book The working title of the book was being human in the digital age Okay, so this is really the core. I mean, that's why it's human business. It's not just what business it is about us And finding out who we really are and what we have to come So the pandemic I think was kind of like a wonderful Um, how to say invitation to reflect where we are we where we want to go The book really nicely focuses on people Be it employees entrepreneurs customers or social environment as stands for a new shared of Responsibility corporate culture characterized by trust And respect, you know, and I really I really like that in the book this rediscovery that being human is essential that you know that When we're put in a lockdown position There's not a digital solution out there that can keep your business running in the float It's those humans that in some respects have been turned into a number Robot pushing the same buttons sending the same emails every day You know very rigid forms. Okay. Now you send out this form and that that Those things don't keep your business running in the float and moving forward that there's That human aspect of it That a lot of companies a lot of organizations have over the years They're like trying to be real efficient and and you know, you've got to punch in you've got to punch out Now it's time to go to lunch and now you can you know go on a break And there's not a lot of humanness in some of these organizations, but when it comes down to crisis Or a pandemic or whatever else we realize that the the more humans the more The corporate culture that you have the better your business flows the more profitable it is the more your employees Enjoy it the more your your business thrives and flourishes and I've had others on the show before Tim labor right My friends with uh, Frederick la lu tim labor right wrote the book business romantic Frederick la lu wrote regenerative or reinventing organizations And you know, there's many other principles and thoughts in this direction of making, you know More humane business more social entrepreneurship more human positive capital because I mean us humans are the capital that are the global citizen that drives Drives our world and economies. That's not just some robotic institution And so I that's what I got out of the book and that's what I've read and then another thing is you quote some very Very interesting wonderful people in the book and refer to certain Certain subject matter and john nays bit is a futurologist and you have a nice quote from him, which is nice and he's uh Almost retired. I I now will have his wife doris nays bit On the show and do a podcast with her Coming up soon and she's kind of taken over their work together and they've been involved in the books and together for this for probably well over 40 years and so um, it's really interesting that you know the wisdom of the past And the the plan for the future of where we're going how that's kind of finding this I don't know synergies the right word but this path in this roadmap of kind of The journey where a lot of humans are saying this is really where we want to be and there's more books There's more thoughts and there's more congruent, but I believe that your look distinguishes in a big way Even more than some of these others What's the action or what can we get there? How can we it's a little bit different and I'd like you because only you can really impact it For me and for me having read it in in in German And then I do this automatic English translation and try to put it into the real world I think I do it pretty good, but I'd like you to unpack it. I think you could probably do it a little bit better what this What your objective what your hope is what's the journey or word you want to kind of Enlighten us on where we should go or where the future of human business is going Well, that's that's a that's a good question huge question. How much time do we have? Let's start with the individual like I said when we when we're building a human business actually starts with us Well, we have to find out. Okay. What is it that motivates us? Is it something that we envision or what we what is it that we like to envision and What can we with our steps where where we can what can we do? Then you invite other people you're starting a dialogue, you know, what do they want you start? I'm like book I talk about the the arc of listening of generative listening having a true dialogue Where you co-create things new things that you prototype new things From there you can go to say a project setting and then this is that this is environment or in the social environment Where you build prototypes and you have concrete results and Maybe from there you can go to corporate level and from there you say you can say the world You know in the books like because people say ask me like what's the target audience for whom is this Britain and I'm answering well for for all those who are interested in and worry about the future and Want to shape our future, you know, but they like maybe an orientation And it all boils back down to us and this is difficult, but hey here we go Regarding businesses what we say and I say it's not really entirely new and quite a few organizations have already started this journey using you know an agile transformation approach and a couple of podcasts to go you talk about agility and It's wonderful. It's good not to focus on the company so much anymore and shareholder and all this You know the paradigm of the last century And it's good to say What does it take to delight our customer? That's wonderful. That's kind of you can say people. They're just the why One question is like how do you get there? Well, and then we're talking about people we're not talking about human resources I call this happy workplace if you build a happy workplace You know where people They like to be in the area. They have a good time. They it's it's joy driven. It's um, it's purpose driven People are Find ways and means to unfold their potentials and their skills and talents Building high performing teams. We have this what I call a happy workplace And then the result is that you build just this value But not only focusing on short term profits habits But having a balance between short mid and long term no results and Plus there is another another aspect I believe that every business has a social responsibility That is not the people and the city or whether you're located But also the environment So it's a holistic approach and you have to look at all of these and you have to know, okay What is it where you start with that's In the agile world as the customer that the how it's the happy workplace and then the business The human business I go a step further and say well Now we want to the purpose of of human business is to generate value for and by humans Because customers are humans then we have the the workers employees, you know, we're all humans Then it's society. So it basically wants on to us And this gives a different long-term perspective and orientation in a world Which is rapidly changing We don't know exactly what where will we be in five years? But hopefully it will still be around and we still have a compass That this is generating value for us humans and the planet On this one one thing I'd like to add Um, I talked about the golden rule, which is like, you know thousands of years old You know treat the other the way you like to be treated And uh kim paulman whom I met a couple of years ago also at the world economic forum She's she has become an ambassador of the golden rule Her book imaginal self a wonderful book with lots of stories Where Muhammad Yunus Al Gore and they share their stories She added a little thing and she said The the multiplied golden rule goes like this treat the other person or treat the other and the planet The way you want to be treated And I think this pretty much sums sums it all up. I mean the gold rule It's more than just like a compass. I mean you and they say well, can it be more concrete? Yeah, take the SDGs of the United Nations We have orientations No matter where I mean quite a few places and it's a great great great place to start I absolutely love that. So the imaginal cell is a wonderful book kim paulman I'll make sure to put that in the show notes about our our our discussion and Kim is paul paulman's wife Former ceo of unilever and now he's gone on to create a wonderful organization imagine, which is fabulous as well as well foundation and for business leaders and Also sits on the international chamber of commerce and world business council for sustainable development a lot of other positive things But I really like that that book. I was also in documentary by jim raketa german photographer turned director Where mohammed unis who's in the book as well as al gore Um, uh, we're in was in the documentary as well As as an expert so that alignment and that thinking that direction of those people is so So beautiful in in your um book you talk about the 10 design principles for human business and purpose of a company And I don't know if we want to tease because most of most of my listeners There are quite a few that speak german, but the majority speak english um Will have to wait anyway till the english version comes out But I don't know if you're willing to release a couple a couple of your secrets and touch on on some of those 10 principles kind of in to get them in the direction of of what your Your thought process and your thinking as it's almost like a manifesto and a lot of respects and and my First book as well My opening statement is about the golden rule. So It's really amazing how it lined Our direction and thinking is and and for our listeners, it's really Unique um, it's not just it's not just a herd mentality or crowd or or you know Reaching to the choir It's the shift that we're seeing in humanity. I look at it at a much more cellular level where I uh think of you know I have a certain amount of time on this planet and I have adult children and I have grandchildren I think of how do I want to live out these precious moments in these days in my life? What kind of future do I want to live in and who do I want to be surrounded by? I want to be surrounded by other human beings Who are moving in the same direction and care about people on planet and Want to be crew members on this spaceship earth and take us into resilient desirable futures Not just for me for the short term. I'll be here For future generations my children my grandchildren and others that I Probably don't know and will never meet so that they can enjoy a beautiful world as well in harmony with our planet And so I I also really strive on that and it's it's this principle that you know To the beast of sustainable means to sustain oneself for multiple generations Whether that's an individual a business To have the resources to have the monies to have the security and shelter the mausoleum hierarchy of needs bottom layers the physiological needs to survive and so I really like the concept that Um Jim liberic has is I would like to have A business romance or those things that I do in this world Around business or my daily activities to invest my time I want to be surrounded by people not only that I love but people that I can trust and be on this journey With together that they are watching out for me that we're in the going in the same direction instead of me feeling like they're just want to turn me into number and if I Have to account for my time and and they have to calculate that You know my productivity is is good for the company or that that it's much bigger purpose and much grander vision and Not only is it humane But it's one that's really enjoyable and fun. You can say I'm I I love to leap out of bed and go to work because that's the most Fabulous organization ever and I enjoy my colleagues Instead, I I've been in many situations over the years I've been walking down the street and with a friend or with someone I go. Oh my god There's somebody from work. Hurry. Let's go the other way. I don't want to see him He's such a jerk and and and they're miserable at work What what are you wasting your time on this precious earth? You know surrounding yourself doing what you don't like and and we've seen it that job dissatisfactions up and um And and so there is a better model and that's why I love Your 10 principles. I love what you've you've presented here and want to just hear more about that Yeah, well, they are the 10 principles. I'm absolutely happy to to share them and Make sure that I send you a pdf maybe and then we can't find a way that people can download this this information And I think it's pretty straightforward. Well, okay. I've I've composed them, but you know um They're they're 10 principles or five five categories the first one is talk about the purpose of Of companies the purpose of the business And I have already mentioned that a first principle is like, okay We the human being we're at the center. Okay, it's it's about generating sustainable value for and by humans people that's the first one um And it's not just like for it's like the environment. It's like the individual environment. It's the the happy work that I talk about It's the business of society. It's environment. That's the first principle And uh talking about sustainability. It's not the short term Value generation it's long term. So this is that these are the first two principles That is the the human being is in the center of our attention and then talk about sustainable value generation for and by people Um Then we have the second category it's about collaboration uh principles three is um, well We have human business how to say promotes an environment which is open which is diverse and inclusive um and um This is being reflected in the the workforce The operation I think is the right word Yes, and then we have the fourth principles. We'll talk about uh cross-functional self-organizing teams small teams. This you can say for those of the listeners who Who are familiar with agile? This is like a given small cross-functional teams and self-organizing teams The third category performance um and the principles five and six Um Principle five is that human business trusts the employees I mean the trust is and trust and respects and and treats the people like people not lack resources and I think this is like one of the key I'll just say key elements of human business. We're not talking about human resources And agile sometimes they always talk about human resources. No, we're talking about human beings Okay, by the way, it's like if you if I'm treated and I see myself as a human resource Then I would have to compete with other resources such as computers I'm not sure if I want to compete with computers And I have you most likely I will lose so human business treats and respects people as people and um There is a business driver Which is principle six the business driver of human business is joy Okay, it's not money. It's joy and As a side note as a footnote those of you who would like to learn more about it Richard Sheridan the the co-founder of mental innovations in and arbor michigan He has written a wonderful book called joy ink And he describes how his company is actually built on this principle that the business driver is joy Then we have the fourth category learning innovation principle seven talks about while we human business an open and learning organization, so You actually well welcome change I mean, there's a wonderful opportunity to learn things you try new things innovation is not is being lived and principle eight is You don't hold all of the ideas to yourself. You actually share them. You know, it's it's what's open innovation the more you share the more you can get back and So it's definitely promotes open innovation. For example, and last but not least Delivery and results Principle nine talks about well Process are important But they are the result of you know You know of good good work, you know, it's not the the purpose of company is not making profits and it's a result profits can help to it's a tool you can say and You deliver, you know an iterative incremental fashion, which is very agile and you know again and last last but not least human business lives In a circular economy And this is where the sustainability comes in again. It's not like we we only focus on On our business. We are part of as a network. We're part of society and we're part of Of our environment. So we have to care for it and If we can promote a circular economy and circular business where we don't have waste That's a it's actually it saves us lots and lots of money Um Take some effort to get there, but it's actually from a business sense. It makes sense I mean, it's it's you can say it's rational Get however The prerequisite is that you have to leave the short-term thinking behind And you balance it with the mid-term and long-term thinking then I think that's good. So these are the 10 principles and Combine them with the the value proposition of that you Wanted you like the customer not just satisfied customer to delight customer you build um a happy workplace and you ensure Sustainable business value plus the kaizen the continued self-improvement mechanism. Um, I think you have solid foundations to evolve I love it and it's It's So true. I thank you for unpacking those those 10 and the categories that they fall in I I'm obviously read the book and and aware of Of those but the reason you know, I wanted you on the show the reason Uh, that it's so important is one you're right in the beginning of our conversation. You talk about corporate social responsibility or social responsibility then Which is is really evolved into environmental social governance today. So the the the beginnings of it years ago was hse health safety or social environment or executive and Compliance and then corporate social responsibility and now it's Environmental social governance then you talk about sustainability German not halte tight you talk about Resilience you talk about the sustainable development goals you talk about the new models of the future of business human capital in some respects, but that human worth that human respect that human humane centered uh, uh business and um You wrote the book you're well versed in it. You've been in this area But believe it or not a lot of organizations a lot of people they haven't even heard of the sustainable development goals they you know, we're five years into it and are like SDGs what's that or what's that pin? I get asked all the time. What's the pin that you're wearing? things like that and and people don't know and and the proof is what I kind of just said before is The global surveys the happiness index the joy index It's probably the lowest it's been ever in our world, especially during this pandemic time and uh It's really rough and it's not just joy of whether you'd like to be at home with your family That joy is really has a big part of where we spend the majority of our time at work at different companies and organizations Job dissatisfaction is pretty high Globally around the world and so if it was bet different if people knew about your principles if Corporations and organizations were employing them then I don't think that data or those studies that we see going on around the world Would be so high of dissatisfaction or people, you know saying not I don't want to see my colleague when I'm walking down the road So I think it's important that we impact that and that the humane portion of those companies and those individuals Start to Mimic and speak about this to their boxes to their employers say you know Let's reinvent our organization. Let's get more humane. Let's quit being so robotic or Let's let's paint our organization to operate in the future to operate in this Desirable resilient beautiful sustainable futures and that's kind of you know, also what the SDG is really a road map to get us to 2030 so the way you've unpacked that the way the book is So vital please those of you who read German Get out there and get it Human business. I want to ask though. Do you have plans for an English cop here? Are you working on it? I'd like to have an English copy a book out there actually Initially, I thought like, well, should I write in any English or in German and my intuition said like no first write it in German and then we'll know when we lay later in English um, I still need um an English publisher or American publisher international publisher and Then it can be translated and modified for the you know more international Um audience because there are some examples. They're mostly from the German speaking countries, you know about depression and what have you But would be wonderful. So if any of those listeners viewers know know a good publisher, let me know And let's talk because I think it's very very very powerful to have Let's get this message out there And um, yes, there should be an English and hope who may be French and Spanish who knows what I don't know how to get there by my vision as you said at the beginning. My vision is to help establish human business as a new global norm within 10 years And this is the concept of human business. I mean the principles can change I mean can't talk about conscious capitalism or what have you but the main idea about generating value for And by people and having the idea of a certain economy or the golden rule Um, you know Imagine how the world will be like as that's a new Norm, I mean there could still be some traditional business out there. Fine, but When you go to the uh to the university, this is what they're teaching Not like short-term thinking And uh, I think it's it's it's up to us what we make out of it I agree There's a good um publishing company called Kabbalah here in Germany that they might help you out getting in English Especially since you already have the German available But I know my listeners will reach out to you and I'm sure others will help and So we can all have a nice version in English and then I want you to do an audio version so that you can speak it in for all of us who are Uh currently stuck in the busy rat race and our eyes are failing us to always read books Uh, I want to ask you probably I guess the first big question And that is are you a global citizen? And how would you feel about the removal of all borders walls and limitations and divisions of humanity? And what are your feelings or your understandings of this? Well, yes, I do believe I'm I see myself as a global citizen. I mean I love traveling I live, you know abroad for a number of years including the u.s And just love it uh as a different culture is learning sharing and It's it's great. I mean it's it's one world. It's one planet And the challenges we are facing especially environmental challenges. There are no borders You know, uh, look at the pandemic right now. I mean the you know, the various countries in europe they have different rules As if the fire starts right at the border and checks in checks out It's kind of silly. No, um, do we need something like a global government? No, I don't think so because there's always the risk of bureaucracy and but No, one world let's have a dialogue. We don't have to have to agree on everything But we have to listen. We have to understand, you know, the various needs and then just go from there A true dialogue opens spaces and Actually, if you look at the business, it's business world already It's more open than governments are, you know When I was working on my my phd in international relations international studies, it's a given. It's a network. It's a community It's no longer country a versus country b It could very well be at the capitals and politicians believe it this way but No, I mean it's like you have to look at the the all these these different networks for everything to fit together It's more than complex. That's why we have to have this dialogue I love it. Yep. Thank you for that answer. Um You feel in this time of a pandemic or even before um any kind of rise of A collapse or impending collapse or extinction of humanity or The current civilization framework that we are Whether globally or europe or the united states that we're operating on that The time black lives matter natural catastrophes loss of biodiversity pandemics blaming this nation blaming that nation Do you feel any unease or rise of something? There is no unease. Yes. There's an rise. I mean, um and due to the internet. It's it's it's you know, very international. It's global And the risk of fake news and what have you Depends. Okay. I think when we when we watch the news we have to get the impression everything is getting worse okay Let's look at starvation. For example, or it's it's worse than 10 years ago. No, it's not we're making great progress But it's easier to sell bad negative stories than positive stories So, you know, I'm you can say I'm optimistic. No, I think I'm a realist, you know And let's talk more about positive stories And see how I'll make how big a difference it can make it's up to us to become true storytellers It's up to us. You can turn off the tv when you know, watching the news. This is actually what I did during the first lockdown in Germany And and and march I after a week. I said like I can't handle this anymore I just whenever the news was, you know, I just turned off the tv. I said like I don't need it You know, because they all talk about all the negatives. You know, it's like when I talk to my neighbors You know to my friends It's friendship. It's community. We helped each other And when you see in a crisis during the pandemic, how many people helped each other? Nobody where you went This is the true essence of humanity Okay, governance. Yes can help but the true essence is it's us there's a uh, this dutch spryker The the german title is in good no good. It's the best seller but he talks I don't know the English title right now um He talks about actually about the positive side of us, which is the natural side And I'm coming back to the to to the uh, to the book when I ask like a what what Can you start the journey to learn do something new and really good kids? We learned to we have unlearned to play We have actually been trained to be functioning resources. This works fine. Everything's fine, but we are learned to play Um, so let's be more open. Let's be more curious. Let's be open to make mistakes and you know Let's talk about it and and see where we're at least All of us have made this journey of innovation um, which is called we learned to walk A baby or a child learned to walk falls down on average up to 300 times before he or she makes the first step take the first step And that's the good the interesting thing is like when a kid falls Falls down He or she does not say it's your fault So precisely they can't speak not yet, you know, maybe they may cry They say, okay. Where am I and they try again? I mean they fall again. I do something different until they actually mastered it Let's be more human and we we have to play some more and It doesn't have to be perfect. We just have to be innovative and learn I totally agree. I think that's that's a beautiful way of answering it and thank you so much for Your thoughts on this. I'm going to throw you a curveball and give you the hardest question that I have for you today And that's really the burning question And a lot of people are like, oh, no, he's going to start swearing. It's really not the swear word although we have been Asking that this year many times It's it's what's the future? Oh the future well The future is human business the new global norm It's a wonderful place for all of us to prosper to work and live together and to unfold our true potential in a positive way and live in In harmony with with nature And we can use technology and digital tools to get us there faster So I'm not afraid of the future just the opposite. Um, I can say well, I wish that we're like 20 years younger So it can do even more But um, no, I'm quite excited about the future Uh, it's but after risk. I see more chances than risk That's that's I love that. That's probably the fastest answer I've ever received to that question because I ask all my guests and you did it so well So but because of that I'm going to ask you One ask the question that I that I hear out of that Does that mean that you yourself have a pretty good Vision or you can kind of visualize what it will look and feel like in that future is Is that what makes it so easy for you to answer or How how did you get upon that? Is that something that you can clearly see or how can you answer that question? So quickly is it because you've already got a good feeling what what it's going to feel and be like to be in that future Maybe I have thought about it already and quite for a long time Which is true and I do have a vision and uh, you know, what I've just described And one of the reasons I wrote this book even though I still don't consider myself as the expert You know in this area. I'm just like an explorer and I'm a traveler And do I know how do how we get there? Uh, I have some ideas, but do I know exactly no I just take one step at a time and see what I can do this week and the week after and And I learn and I not fail and that that's fine. Uh, but yes, I do have a, you know, a relatively clear vision and I share it and when you I mean If you talk about like imagine you working in the same environment and join as the driver the business driver Would you like to work there? and it's a Tell me more that's usually they you know, what they what they say when I'm at Davos and say It's like, what are you doing? Well, and I'm saying I'm a human business architect The first question is like cool. What are you doing? Tell me more. What's the human business? So there is a keen interest sincere interest in about more about us. We're tired. We're depressed of Running in the in the in the hands of the wheel. We have to get out of it And we have to be at the steering wheel. It's about us No follow-up question to that You got the right answer ding ding ding ding you win the prize. So that was super I want to go now into really And I'm probably going to put you on the spot a little bit, but you know What do you think the hold up is for people not to transition to this model this To to make that transition. What's the hesitation? Do we need to set up a Workshop or a day in Davos and go through go through this. I mean what what? What do you think where the next steps or what do we need to do to say here's the proof in the pudding or Let us let you experience it and then present the results You know on the world stage Well, that would be pretty cool. I think first of all people don't mean Some of they are still stuck in the old paradigm and maybe they're they have no clue how to get there So let's let's do this challenge. Let's see if we can find enough people together prior to the world economic forum next year, which will be in concern in switzerland and have a workshop for two or three days and where we talk about Some pressing issues people are interested could be environmental issues societal issues. What have you I mean something they care about And let's build some concrete projects There where they're harder than it which kind of we can build a little human business project and Who knows maybe startups or some new initiatives not blah blah blah, but concrete action items We want to follow up. I mean those people who would be in this workshop They would have the capacity to follow up and could should be cross functional cross generational students as well as you know managers as well as like who knows unemployed artists and and see what we can up can come up with and then Then present the results some of the venues at the world economic forum and start a dialogue And the tools, you know, which I'm also describing in the book. They're very very simple But maybe that's why because it's it can be very powerful But it's not an agenda. We say step one step two step three There is plenty of room. Let's play your space for failure. There's plenty or in other words, there's plenty of space for new ideas to merge and innovation take place So, yeah, let's see if we can do this One or two well two or three days prior to to say and and then find a way to present the results and challenge the audience to to join us and maybe you know, maybe they can help find some of these initiatives How cool would this this be and then a year later in Davos Present the sustainable results and see where we got from there Because we it's Davos. I love Davos. I've been there. I think seven or eight times Great initiatives lots of ideas, but the question is like how sustainable are these ideas? I'd like to see some more positive stories And going back say by the way, this is what we have and if they like they can Follow us, you know through platform and see what we can do and you know, they can join the team So it should be self-organizing This it's up to the audience what we can make out of it. So I think Let's do this Well, we'll add all the links and the show notes and description and in your biography When we post it so that we can get people's feedback and see who's interested The I I definitely believe that we should do it and we should move forward That you you brought up something very interesting So normally the world economic form the forum is in Davos this year or next year it will be in lutserin I'm foreboding any other other catastrophes or things that would stop it which is There's also already these growing pains a little bit with Davos or has been for a few years now the amount of people that come to such a small space and and rooms and costs and things and so lutserin I think will be A nice wake up. Maybe there will be an expansion to you know a bigger world stage more inclusive more open to The future of work the future of business leaders and We might see some new things come out of there that that this whole Practice that we're involved in evolves much much bigger and better than we could have imagined So I definitely think that it's also a better easier stage for us to do something with human business in lutserin and that would be in Davos for a lot of people that just Economy of skill is just not feasible always That having been said today I was also a big launch for for the form they released when Fourth industrial revolution claus Schwab's book and and some new things they released the transformational maps on on the the forum page, but now they've released some actual Really cool things for systems thinking dynamic modeling more social Environmental social governance, but also more human technology or humane technology into Their their platform and it's right on the home page of world economic form and that is these transformational maps now Whatever individuals or businesses can join and actually create their specific transformational map for that topic For their business their organization for one, but then specifically drill down on what all the facets what that complex system is that your organization addresses touches upon How many lives it influences and and get that data in a specific transformational map for your organization? which is kind of more a step in this not only complexity science, but systems thinking and dynamic model But actually making it more personalized making it more humane getting us down to the real things I mean the the the reason why I was so excited about it when it very first came out was released on the website the transformational maps is not only clouds talk about it in this book Um Well for the simple fact that the entire world at that same time the un the world economic form the wto and other international organizations In 2018 all made this switch to systems thinking dynamic modeling and providing the tools for us as individuals To do something with it and think in a different way and the reason why And this is what I don't want kind of want to unpack and get to the bottom of Is humanity has a real hard time thinking linear and lateral Well, you know Are what we think that's the only way we can think And we also get into these stylos or this linear and lateral way of thinking to solve our global grand challenges And it does not work. It has failed us time and time again And finally in 2018 they said hey, we need to switch in order to solve global grand challenges in order to be more Effective to be more humane We need to embrace complexity and systems thinking and they've created these tools That let us see the big ripple effect a big picture of what all the systems Of our world are connected And the results that we're seeing so far is those organizations who have switched to these models and those Who are addressing the complex systems facets of of a problem Are really seeing some positive results and returns and so uh, you know, just a touch upon Loots air and a world economic form what what new things are coming and or we're going and like I said last year person Harris from Center for humane technologies He was you know, he's also very aligned with what you're speaking about and others Let's take it to that next step. Let's really make humanity better, which is our integration with environment more symbiotic more symbiotic earth So that we can really have this beautiful future to live in and have that vision like you so eloquently have When you answered my question I have um Three more Questions for you and they're more for my listeners or guests are sustainable takeaways for my listeners That I want you to depart for them another free gift. I'm making you give away your whole portfolio and what you've been working on to to us And my listeners that they can take and apply into their lives So the first one is if there was one message that you could depart to the to our listeners A sustainable takeaway that had the power to change their lives What would it be? I have to got To be yourself All right, you know, it's like you're the same right here be yourself Everyone else is already taken by by Oscar. What coincidence, okay? um Now let's treat this like have to be yourself and if you don't know who you are Besides playing a role find out who you really are What should young innovators? Who want to get into leadership fields who want to get into coaching who want to get into more humane businesses? Be thinking about if they are looking for ways to make a real impact That's a tough one um True leadership and they have to understand true leadership is not about uh your ego True leadership is about serving others So uh become a good listener Maybe that's a good start you know, um practice dialogue and uh be able to make mistakes and uh be bold Um, and there are so many wonderful opportunities worldwide, uh, which follow this track Of you know travel Never ever forget to play It's not just about work It's not about, you know career. It's it's about if you really want to make an impact Okay, you know what? Help your neighbor the next person you meet and see how he can help that person But in order to help the other person you have to know What their needs are that means you have to listen you have to have an open mind open heart And so this is what our Dushama says And see what impact you can make last one is What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey to date? That you would have loved to know from the start say oh my gosh I wish I would have known this 20 30 years ago. My life would be so much different I'll tell you for me. It was I wish I would have started much earlier Yeah um I think it's about The illusion that I have these others It's just that it comes from me intuitively. I don't know. I I hadn't planned this because I didn't expect this question I think through the illusion of having to please others and compromising my true self prove something to other people And This is you know, this is very very personal. It's not so much professional. You can say but I think this would have made a huge difference and learning to Love myself. It's not ego shift. This is different, you know You know, acknowledging my my many imperfections and lastly in these imperfections and Be more to learn and make mistakes be you know bolder in this respect That's very similar to bren browns be vulnerable, you know that vulnerability in some respects It is and that's a tough one You know, that's like Boys don't cry men do You know, I wish I had cried more when I was chuffed. I wish I had A better access and acknowledgement of my own emotions how I felt I wish I had, you know, be more open about it And it would have made A huge difference. Yeah for myself, but for my immediate environment and therefore I think I would have grown You can say much faster but do have regrets Regrets don't meet you anywhere. So therefore. No, I do not have regrets. You know, I am where I am I think that's the perfect time perfect place so I think from here it's like Hopefully a more open more interesting journey I love that. Thank you so much I am done with all my prodding and prying questions But before we say goodbye, I just want to ask if there anything you want to ask or discuss with me And is there anything that During our podcast now that you didn't get a sayer that you would like to depart to our listeners Let them know or something that that Absolutely wanted to make sure we talked about Well, there are so many talk things we can talk about I just hope that, you know, we'll have a chance again to do this little project there and And build a network of say, you know project accelerators or, you know, making a making an impact that would be wonderful to to Give a little impulse, you know, and because there's not much I cannot do everything, you know So no, I really want to thank you for for giving me the opportunity to talk about, you know, some of the ideas I have described in my book and And I just want to thank you for the wonderful podcast you have had in the past for those of you listeners who haven't Listened to some of the others. I mean, yes, they're long but you get you get so much out of it and truly inspirational so Thank you very much Thank you. I really really appreciate that Thomas and and I always get the comment, you know, they're they're long or boy, they're sure long It's true But we want to go into the depth and substance remove bias and kind of get into the sense making and more more importantly is Just the same with the shift of the world going from this siloed or linear approach to solving our global grand challenges I want to really get into the depth or substance of some of the questions impact your views and your feelings and what you've Put numerous amount of hours into your Into your book and into your works as well as my other guess That we really give it the respect and credit for your time and and the journey that you've had now you've Left us with your wisdom to unpack that and to give us that knowledge and To tickle the surface or just do a TED talk or an elevator pitch on on what that is not It is not humane, but it's also not really to to to get into really understanding that and so Sometimes we repeat ourselves. Sometimes it's a little bit long, but I think it's really worth it to have To have that and I appreciate it and you know, like you said, you you have on vinterfell that's been one of our podcast people and many other great authors and wonderful people that um I've spent years and decades working on things and thinking and networking and we need to give them a voice and we need to unpack that because what the way this whole podcast series started Was with a good friend of mine John He's strelechie who wrote Um, he were about every 26 minutes. He sells one of his books in germany. He's written tons of books the why cafe or Yeah, I'm big for life. He says if you want to be a success if you want to Uh fulfill your dreams your purpose your passion your purpose for existing You need to find The who it's not the why the what or simon synex why It's find the who find who has already done it who has already lived it who has unpacked it Who has written it who has written it who has been a success And learn all you can from them talk to them and get into deep dive And then use their wisdom and use their story The mentor you to get into the future or into that practice that you want to do We've been on this earth for a long time you know, uh, but in that Really short time of the big life of of our earth We've made a big impact and the way we can have An exponential impact in a humane way is by applying those who've already done it before us who've already had those thoughts and And you've mentioned a couple of the greats before that we're already thinking in this direction already moving Let's put it into practice. Let's make it happen And uh, I think any of those who want to find who should join us and loot sarin Absolutely, that's what would be wonderful Thank you so much thomas. I appreciate it. You have a wonderful day Thank you Take care. Bye. Bye