 Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the British Library this evening for Chinese and British, the conversation. This evening's conversation is one of the first events supporting our current exhibition, Chinese and British, 共世英华. I'm Han Lin Xie, one of the Chinese collection curators at the British Library. I'm also one of the internal curators curating the current exhibition, Chinese and British, 共世英华. Chinese and British is an exhibition exploring British Chinese communities and culture. In addition to the rich collection from the British Library, including manuscripts, books, newspapers, photos, and oral histories, the exhibition also involves long items from the local private owners to tell the story of their communities. From the first documented Chinese person who visited the country in 1687, until today with the highest number of Chinese people in the UK, the exhibitions showcase Chinese communities' stories from their significant contributions in wartime service and national careers, to outstanding achievements in literature, sport, music, fashion, and so on. This exhibition runs from 18 November 2022 until 23 April 2023. Please come and visit the exhibition. Before I invite our guest speakers to the stage, I would like to start by welcoming all of you in the entrance hall for joining us in these events. I also would like to extend a very special welcome to those of you who join us online. I hope that you will enjoy this evening, or depending on which time zone you are, enjoy the morning and afternoon. We will be taking questions from our online and in-house audience. If you are watching online, please submit your questions using the question box below the video. And for our audience in the theater, please just raise your hand and a microphone will come to you. If you are watching online, you can use the menu above to provide us with feedback on the event, to donate to the British Library and to find out more about our guest speakers. Now, it's my pleasure to introduce our chair for the evening, Georgie Ma, Feng Pui Yu, is the creator of the broadcast, Chinese Chippy Girl, where she brings guests on the show to bring better representation of the East and Southeast Asian community and to amplify their voice. Let's welcome Georgie. Just got walked from my pad. Hi, everyone. This is so exciting. Oh, my goodness, there's so many faces. Hi, shoes. So, yes, welcome to the Chinese and British Conversation at British Library. So, so exciting. I can't believe this actually event is actually happening for the 10-year-old self in me that never thought that we would actually have a space in somewhere like this. So, I'm just going to say one more time to just repeat myself. There's a British Chinese exhibition in the library talking about our culture, our heritage, and our upbringing as well. I feel like we can clap, right? We can be loud. I know we're in the library. Come on, we're good. It's after hours. Chinese and British exhibition is on downstairs. It's until the 23rd of April. I'm so ecstatic that there's actually a conversation about this. And it's not even just about being British and Chinese. It's our EC community as well. EC, East and Southeast Asian community. I'm just going to park this conversation to one side. There's actually another event happening in East London that's hosted by my friend Anna Chen from Asia Leadership Collective, and they're talking about EC Eats. Now, a few people have said to me, oh, Georgie, I'm really sorry. I can't come to the event. I'm going to go to the event talking about EC Eats, which basically is talking about East and Southeast Asian food. And I was like, do you know what? Don't be sorry. I just think it's so amazing that there's actually a choice in events on our community. And it's not even just about that. There's so many EC organizations as well. There's BC, British, East and Southeast Asian network, really advocating for the EC community. There's also EC sisters, or ESEA sisters as well, where they've created a really safe space for EC women and those in the LGT, BQ, IA community as well. There's also on your side, I don't know if they're here tonight. Raise your hands if you are here. Nope. Okay, don't worry about that. They are UK support network for the EC community who are experiencing racism and hate. But just going back to this agenda on our conversation, British and Chinese, I'm joined by some amazing panels here as well. I'm going to start off with my takeaway sister, Angela Hoi. Hi, Angela. Hi. So Angela is an author of a takeaway book. Put your hands up if you read the book. Yes. I've got so many. Also a food journalist, born in Wales, fellow takeaway sister. Angela, do you want to tell us more about your backgrounds? Yeah, sure. I was born in Wales and I'm from a little place called Baver, which is in the Welsh Valleys. And like Georgie says, I grew up at a traddy's takeaway and we lived above it. We owned it for 30 odd years. And then I moved to London to become a journalist. And I used to work at like various places like Vice, HuffPost and Time Out. And now I'm currently an editor at an app called Recky, which is a startup. But yeah, that's pretty much it, I think. So Angela, tell us about why it was so important for you to write a memoir, to write a book about takeaways? I just felt that, you know, there was just so many stories about the Asian American experience. Like yes, there were similarities, but they weren't exactly the same. And it was always, I never really felt I could relate to certain things in terms of like, especially growing up in a place where it was very rural. You know, me and my family were like, what are they only Chinese families where we were? And I never really felt that community, because it was a very isolating experience growing up in, you know, in a very white dominated neighborhood. So I guess like in America, you have all these like really big Chinese and like Eastern Southeast Asian communities, say like LA or San Francisco or New York, where you know, you felt like you had a space to go, but where I was was very rare, and it was even like family or friends. So I felt like, and I know there were so many other Chinese takeaway kids like me, but because we're all in different areas and very rural parts, like in Scotland or in, you know, in Bournemouth and Brighton. And you know, it was a very isolating experience. I really wanted to tell that story of, you know, feeling lonely, not really sure where your footing is in the world. You know, am I a white person or am I Chinese? Or, you know, it was this very conflicting identity of not knowing where I am. So it really thought like, made me want to write about the story. And I think growing up in a takeaway, at that time, you never really thought of anything different. You just thought like, oh, this is just normal. This is the way of life until later on, as you grow older, you start to kind of really reflect on your upbringing and the person that you are. So yeah, I guess that's what it was really, essentially. I think when reading your book, it just brought back so many memories to me, like working behind the shop or working behind the counter. So for those that don't know, I'm also a Chippy girl as well. I had to take, my mom and dad had a takeaway in, in Maxfield, in south of Manchester. And I'll be honest, I hated it. Hated every single second of it. I hated serving the chips. I hated working with my parents. Hate to speak in Cantonese. I just hated everything about it. Fast forward like 30 plus years later, and I have a podcast about it. But I think reading your book, there was, there was, okay, so there's, there was two mental sides of me when reading your book. There were times when I thought, okay, I can't read anymore just yet because I'm starting to get really emotional, especially things that were quite triggering, I bought on the racism. But then there was things like just your stories of, you know, when you were working with your brother, you're out on the deliveries with him, I just thought, you know what, that's quite fun. Because there were some highlights of working with, with family. I felt like you got on much better with your brother than you get on with my little brother. So, and tell us about some of the writing that you've done as well on your journalism. Yeah. So I guess like one of the first pieces I ever wrote, I guess I, you know, wrote what I knew. And that was Chinese food or identity. And I really, the first piece I ever wrote was about dim sum trolleys in the UK. I think it was, I just noticed that, you know, the, the one Chinese restaurant in Wales called Happy Gavric, which I loved. And I used to always go there every Sunday before Chinese school, which was my parents blackmail incentive, like you get to have dim sum, but then you have to go to Chinese school afterwards to learn Cantonese. And they used to have dim sum trolleys. And there was used to be quite a lot of places in Chinatown. So it's like a big, imagine like, you know, like a steward, and you have like the, the trolleys, and you have all the bits of dim sum. And there'd be a woman just shouting what they have on their carts. You have like showing fun. And you've got, you know, rice and glutinous rice and all that. They were like shouting what they have. But they were dying out. So I wrote a piece about it saying I really miss them, even though they're not like the freshest in the world because it's like pre-made. And then you just pick off whatever. And then it just kind of grew from there. And I didn't realize that, you know, there's a space to write about like really niche in my eyes. Then I thought it was really niche writing about Chinese food. And, you know, I've always been kind of writing about and talking about things that I knew, you know, I've written during when the height of COVID, I wrote about COVID related hate crimes and the rise of it. I spoke to a lot of victims and like Chinese community centers and the things that could be done in terms of, you know, tackling Asian hate and talking to the victims in terms of like this, telling their story and that like those things really mattered to me because, you know, they were, COVID gave, you know, a face to all the hate. And, you know, I get it because during COVID it was a horrible time. People, you know, lost loved ones. People lost work. So they targeted all that hate to Asians because, you know, they had, they wanted someone to blame. And I guess, yeah, that's kind of a lot of the work that I've done that I've always been, you know, very proud of the work that I've done in terms of like advocating in terms like Chinese food, you know, fighting our corner, fighting our little space. And yeah, so I feel like very like I'm glad to be able to have that space to be that person to be able to write it. Yeah. Well, I have to say I'm a diehard fan of your articles. Thank you, Angela. Next up we've got singer-songwriter. I actually can't believe I'm saying this because I've been such a big fan of you, Jason. Sorry, I'm fangirling you here. Okay, be professional. Okay, singer-songwriter, performed in Glastonbury this year, has a single called Ritual that's featured on BBC Introducing and Spotify. Your massive voice for the LGBTQIA community. Jason, do you want to tell us more about yourself? I'm sure. Hi, I feel like you've covered it. That's all I am. Hi, I'm Jason Kwan. I use he, their pronouns. I am a queer and non-binary singer-songwriter from Hong Kong. I moved here when I was 14 and I've kind of been here ever since. I also work a lot within the cabaret scene. I help run a queer Asian cabaret collective called The Bitten Peach and we platform Asian artists from all different disciplines and put them on stages and train them up and make sure that they have a voice to be exactly who they want to be on stage. For the past five years I have worked within the LGBTQIA plus homelessness community, supporting homeless youth all over the UK to an age of 16 and 25, helping them with independent living, with housing, with education and all that kind of stuff. And I kind of, yeah, like through my music I sing a lot about really authentic experiences I have and my aim is to put more Asian stories into the mainstream and make sure that we are heard. And first I fuck things up basically. I'm really happy that you're on stage, not because I'm a super fan, but also I think it's really interesting to hear your voice as well, particularly because you're part of the LGBTQIA community, but also you moved over from Hong Kong as well. When you decided to move to the UK, did you say you were 14 when you moved over? What was going through your mind? Were you excited? Oh my god, what's happening? It was interesting. So growing up in Hong Kong was kind of difficult. I still am very camped and very femme, and growing up is difficult for everyone, but I think as a femme person within very hetero environments it's quite difficult for me to just be myself and I was bullied quite badly at my school in Hong Kong to the point where I would skip class. I didn't turn up to things because I was like, why should I turn up if I'm just going to be hated on? So I floated this idea to my mom to go to the UK and she was very much like, well, your sister got a sports scholarship, that's why she can go. We can't afford to send you. So I was like, okay, well, let me audition for music scholarship. And I also wrote a letter to the school asking them to pay for the rest of it. I was like, if they could give me a hardship fund, that'll be great. And the school were like, yep, we'll do that for you. And so I got an incredible opportunity to leave a homophobic environment to a place I've never ever visited by myself, knew nothing about, and just like turned up. Yeah, and you know what I thought was, oh, you know what, I've seen queer people in the media, but they're all white. So they're here, they're in the UK, they're in America, like they're in Europe. I'm sure they exist here. But when it turned up, it was an independent all boys boarding school. And I was like, cool. And so it was cut, it was pretty bad there as well. But there was another part which plays into intersectionality of the crossover of my identity, which was that I was Chinese, you know, I was Asian, I was East Asian, I was something that they kind of put into a box. So I had to kind of battle both of those things at the same time. But there were so many factors that I had to consider and deal with. And I was 14, and I was trying to navigate all this by myself. And I was not about to cry to my parents, because they didn't know I was queer. So I wasn't going to tell them what was happening. So it was a very interesting time in my upbringing, I think. And you were 14 as well. I don't know about you guys, but when I was 14, I thought, I don't know, I was just like the worst person ever. So negative, hated life, hated everything. Well, I was a terrible person too, but I just also like went through a lot of other things. I was such a terrible teenager. Thank you, Jason. Next up, we've got Amy Fung as well. Born and bred in London, core member of BC, Britain's East and Southeast Asian network, really advocating for the EC community. And yeah, Amy, before I say any more glowing things about you, do you want to tell us more about yourself? Yes, so I'm a British Chinese, Londoner. And I feel like a big part of who I am is actually because of where my family came from. So my great grandparents were from Southern China. And because of war, of conflict, of political economic strife, they had to flee to Northern Vietnam, which is where my parents were born. And then they grew up, obviously, may each other had kids. And then because of the American Vietnam War, and because of other wars to the Sino-Vietnamese War, they again had to flee because it was dangerous to be Chinese. And they took themselves. So my parents at that time must have been around 30, 33 years old, I believe. Them and their four children got into a boat, and they basically had to leave en masse with several hundred thousand other, what they call now, boat people. But I think a lot of people would rather be called force migrants. And then they went out to sea, obviously, extremely traumatic time, ended up in Hong Kong, where they lived in a refugee camp for, I think, a few months. And then they got resettled in the UK. And then I ended up being born in the lovely, leafy suburb of Phnom, and my older sister as well. And yeah. And then skip a few years, be seen started. Yay. So hold on. Let's just go back a little bit there. Just go back. So you're one of five. Yeah. No, six. You're one of six. Oh, geez, right. Okay. So you're one of, so you're one of six. So the first four siblings, were they born in Vietnam? And number five and new, five and six. So are you the youngest? I am the youngest on the baby. You can tell you're the youngest as well. So child number five and six, were they born in the UK? Yeah. Oh, okay then. Yeah, yeah. Do you have, do you feel like you have a slight caught your difference with your older siblings then? Yeah. First of all, I want to pay tribute to the older siblings because I think they went through a lot. Not only did they have to navigate all of that, they also ended up being in the country where they couldn't speak the language. Everything's new to them. It was cold. The food was completely different. And they also had to navigate my parents' differing expectations for them as well. So I really pay tribute to my older siblings because they went through a lot. And then I came along and no idea what was going on. You know, I didn't go through all of this. I had, you know, the time of my life. And yeah, I definitely think that I had very different experiences from my older siblings. That's for sure. Okay, so let's fast forward a few more years. BC. Yes. Tell us more about BC and how it started. We've got some BC members here as well. Gonna shout out Carly and Izzy. Come on, say hello with your hands. It's so embarrassing. You know what? I was actually gonna go, yes, stand up BC. I remember I put you on a spot last time. Yeah. I'm nice to you guys, you see. So Britain's East and Southeast Asian Network, we started a couple of years ago because we noticed that there was this really worrying uptick in anti-East and Southeast Asian racism. And that was obviously due to the COVID pandemic. The reporting in the media was calling it the China virus. I definitely felt a sense of anxiety, really palpable fear when I left the house. And whenever I tried to speak to anyone about it, I always felt like maybe they wanted to help me feel better. They said, you know, it's all in your head. It's not real. And I felt I needed to connect with people who actually understood me. And so you do what you do when you're locked down in a pandemic with nowhere else to go, you go online. And I met Sony or some other people and that included some of the BC team. And Viviao, shout out to Viviao. She started a petition. Yeah, Viviao, come on, let's give her a clap. She started a petition to call on the media to stop using images of East and Southeast Asian people in corona related articles, especially when it was unnecessary. And from then on, we, you know, influenced the first ever anti-East racism debate in parliament, which was chaired by Sarah Owen. And a couple of months after that, we started the platform, BC, because we felt like there wasn't a space where we could talk about our experiences in a safe arena, you know, where people didn't judge us, where we could be vulnerable. So we do lots of different kinds of things. We publish articles. We create educational resources. We act as consultants. So if any company wants to be culturally sensitive, they can approach us. We have a podcast called, but where are you from? And one of our major projects is starting in the first ever East and Southeast Asian Heritage Month. In the UK happens every year in September, where we invite people to create an event, talk about who they are, explore East and Southeast Asian identity and just enjoy yourselves. So no, Georgie, you did an amazing podcast recording with Angela here about the takeaway experience. And Jason, you performed in Rewave, which was an incredible musical event featuring all EC artists. So it's been a really sort of validating space where I've been not only being able to meet so many incredible people, but learn more about myself as well. So lovely. Oh, BC and you guys. Okay. I'm going to be, I'm going to be quite serious now. Okay. I want to talk about relationships with our families and I actually feel like this is going to be like therapy because I think so basically with my with my parents, they were both born in China. They were raised in Hong Kong. And then they came, they moved over to the UK in the 60s and 70s and they met in my gonggongs, my granddad's Chinese restaurant in Liverpool. And I mean, I'm 40 now and I still have a really like a really, oh, how do I say it? Because I think my mum might be watching. So how do I say this? So hi, mum, if you're watching. But I'm really going to be honest, I feel like I have a challenging relationship with my mum. A, because I think very British and she doesn't think British. B, my Cantonese is extremely broken. It's getting a bit better. Like I can go into Chinese restaurants and they can understand what I'm trying to order rather than saying to me, can just say in English, please. And I think because of those barriers, the cultural difference, the cultural barrier and also the language barrier, I feel I have a kind of disconnected relationship with my parents. And I think when I was growing up seeing my white friends have such a close relationship with their mums, I got so jealous. Like they go shopping together. You know, some of my friends at school, they've got the heartbreak and they'd go to their mum. I could never do that to my mum. My mum would never hug me like my mum's never like pat me on the back or touch my hair or anything like that. So I just want to ask, do any of you have this relationship with your families as well? Disconnected, challenging, go. Anyone? Who wants to go first? You can go first. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. We've only started to really hug and talk about feelings and telling each other we love each other. But I guess growing up... You want to start, right? You tell each other you love each other. Yeah, like now we do. Now we do. Not then. Not then. Now we do. Do they say what they have to say? Only because I force them to. Oh, you force them. Tell them you love me. Hold on. I've got to be serious. Do they say to you first or do you have to say to them? No, I have to say to them. I'm just saying the name. Sorry, so many questions. No, no, no. Only like now. Yeah, I say I love you now. Really? Yeah, yeah. Now I do. Because I force them to say to me like... Do they not get awkward or anything? I think they do a bit, but then I think, you know, I force them to like squish them to me. I want to be loved, you know? You know, after growing up was such a minefield, you know. Me and my mum were like butt heads all the time because I, you know, I desperately so wanted to be white. You know, I wanted to fit in. I wanted to, you know, fit in with my classmates. I dyed my hair every color of the sun. I smoke. I drank. My parents hate me. And, you know, I would actually like sneak out. Sorry, Mum, if you're like listening. After like working in the takeaway, you know, I would work in front of house serving customers. And then like after 11 o'clock, I'd be like, sneak out, go to house parties and, you know, go out. And, you know, so we were always constantly butting heads. And we always felt quite distant, especially growing up because we never really understood each other. And I think the language barrier also was such a big thing because my Cantonese is also similar. It's not very good. I would say I'm more of a Western, you know, because I grew up in Wales. It was a very Western centric growing up. And, you know, there were certain things I couldn't really explain or talk to them about like mental health or talking about issues that really bothered me, like being bullied in school or, you know, I was having bad grades. I was like struggling in school. And I couldn't really convey the message to them. You know, our conversations were very surface level conversations. It was always very like, oh, have you eaten yet? So it was just like, you know, as if asking very just, are you okay? Or never really getting to the depth of the problem. So our relationship was always quite, you know, fractured because of that. And, you know, because we worked in the takeaway, there was no time to talk about feelings or how we were because we were always just too busy to work in the shop. You know, we, you know, our hours were like five till 11. But, you know, that was just opening hours. There was a lot more, you know, my parents would get up at, you know, like 10 a.m., like, you know, much earlier than that to start prepping, you know, they would spend all day chopping mushrooms, chopping char siu, making curry sauces. And, you know, and then we also went to school. And after school, we would help out. So I remember like working in the, you know, counter still in my school uniform, serving people or, you know, giving cans of Coke to people. So yeah, there was just our lives revolves around the takeaway. And there was just no time for anything else in terms of, you know, having a proper family outing. We never had like holidays. I mean, the only holiday we would have is to go to Hong Kong. We would, you know, to see family really. So it didn't really feel like a holiday. So it would always just be like seeing family. And we never really had time to really just enjoy each other's company other than, you know, a sick fan, which was having a meal. So it was like, before the shop opened, my parents would always force us to have family meals together. So that was the only time we were really cherished to really eat. But we never really talked when we eat it because we were just too busy putting food in our mouths. And then during middle of the family meal, someone would call in an order before to get in early. So there was never really any time. You know what? You said all that. I still can't believe you tell your parents that you love them. Not only now. It's taken a long time to get there. I mean, it's, we never really talked about how much our feelings and it was only really since I wrote the book. And then during the book, I interviewed my parents talking to them about their past. You know, my mom grew up in China. She grew up in the Cultural Revolution, similar to like Amy. Parents like grew up through trauma, very distressing time. Like she swam the river to escape China to go to Hong Kong. My dad was like a family of like eight, nine siblings and nine siblings. And you know, he had a very scrappy childhood. There was never enough food on the table. My parents, both my grandfathers died when they were quite young. So, you know, they didn't have a father figure to provide for them. So they both had a very scrappy childhood. And, you know, that kind of conveys across when, you know, they don't really want to talk about their past because it's very traumatic. So only until, you know, I wrote the book, I was, you know, I had, we both had time because they had sold the shop then and they were sent me retired. So we were actually able to have the time to actually sit down to talk to each other, to talk about the past, to talk about feelings, to talk about, you know, relationships, what was going on in our lives. And I think it was way better for it because I'd always tried to keep that separate, like my personal life, because I don't want to bother them with my personal life and my problems felt mundane to the shop. So, you know, it's only, it's a very long and painful process and, you know, a road to get to saying I love you, you know. How about you, Amy, to tell your family that you love them as well? It shows itself in different ways. Through, I think, my family more acts of service, definitely. So my mum would always do the traditional cutting fruit, giving it to me, making me drink some of my thirsty, cooking loads of amazing food. But saying I love you, I think, is like getting blood out of stone. Like, it'll never happen. It'll never happen. But it shows itself in different ways. Have you told them that you love them? Because I say to my mum sometimes, I sometimes record it and it's just so awkward. She's just like, why are you saying it for? And then, like, I love you in Kansas, it's more oily. She's like, yeah, hold that girl, which means it's disgusting. I'm like, it's not what that, I don't really mean it. So just stop saying it now. Now, I have to accept the food. That's fine. I think the trick is, say it enough times to weigh them down. Yeah, yeah. That's why I did say it. Okay, I'm going to stop. Now, it's too awkward for me. No, too awkward. I actually grew up saying I love you to my parents. It's kind of weird. But it's like one thing that they did take on is to be like, I love you. Good night. Like, it was very sweet in that sense. Everything else was just their trauma, though. Like, they still had the same reactions, you know, like, you say your parents grew up scrappy and my parents grew up scrappy, like they didn't have, they were from broken families, they came from nothing, had barely any food on the table, had no father figures. Like, so when they barely have dealt with their own trauma, and when they are still kind of like children themselves as adults, how are they supposed to, you know, give you what you need. And so, like, I've had to really think back and like change my expectations on how I view them and what they could provide me. Because in a sense, like, especially moving to a different country, like, it's a whole different cultural experience, and they're navigating it. You're navigating it from a whole different perspective. And, you know, when I came over, they didn't know what it was like to grow up here, right? They had no clue, except for what I told them. But you don't tell them exactly how you're feeling most of the time. Like, I would never say, oh, someone was being racist to me. It's like, that's the sort of stuff you keep to yourself. It's almost like a known understanding that this stuff will happen to you. You just got to swallow and keep going. And that was what I was taught, right? So I would never bring that up because what were they going to do about it? And so it was like our way of, like, surviving by not talking about things sometimes, which obviously, you know, isn't healthy. There are ways to do it. But I think at the time they just didn't have the language to communicate that or feel that they could support me being so far away. Yeah. So something that you just mentioned in your intro is that when you moved to the UK when you were 14, your parents didn't know that you're queer. Do they know that you're queer now? Yeah. So I came out to my parents when I was 18 and a total mouse gay. And my mom didn't believe me. And I always thought it was kind of crazy. They didn't believe me. Like, I would literally run around the house like singing Lady Gaga the top of my lungs. And she'd be like, yeah, well, she's female. You must love her because she's a woman. So you must be straight. Like that was her like logical reasoning. Like they had no cultural context of what queerness was because they didn't know a single queer person. I think I'm still the only queer person they know, which is crazy to think like we're in 2022. My mom doesn't really know I'm queer, you know, like that's such a new term for her or that I'm non binary. In a sense, it's like, I don't feel like I have to have those conversations with her because those parts of my identity are so personal to me that as long as I know who I am, that's fine. Like I don't really like as long as no one's being insulting to me about who I am, it's chill. So in a sense, I feel like I don't have to explain to her fully. I would like to it would be great to have a conversation with her like that. But I think it's also something so alien to her. Like she doesn't understand, you know, how a queer person would survive in a society she grew up in, which is very, very homophobic, very transphobic. She's she knows she told me she was like, you've chosen a very difficult path to go down. Are you sure you want to do this? And I'm like, Mom, why would I choose to go down a difficult path? Like this is just who I am. There's no choice about these things. And that's taken her quite some time to understand. And I think me being in the UK and carving out my own space, she's seen that, you know, I can be myself and do what I want to do. But I think her rejection of me comes from her being scared of like, Oh, no, I don't want you to do that because it's like from what I've seen. And we don't have many queer role models in Hong Kong at all. And the one person we have was Leslie Chung, who is a gay singer. And he ended up killing himself, right? So it's very difficult for my parents to think, Oh, you can be a singer, firstly, like not a doctor or lawyer, but then also be queer on top of that and tell people you're clear. That's crazy. I remember a mom saying to me when I came out, she was like, it's fine. You can still marry a woman and just whatever you do behind the closed doors is your business. And I'm like, mom, I'm not going to marry this poor woman and lie to her. But it's like, it's for her, it's like anything but living as an out and proud queer person. Yeah. Yeah. It's much better now, though. Yeah. So speaking about relationships and stuff, I want to talk about dating as well. Um, because I remember when I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure on me from my family that I had to marry a Chinese person. Not only Chinese person, he's gotta be rich, not from a takeaway background. I was like, how am I going to find one of them? So. And, um, so I've been two relationships. Both of them have been white boys. And the first boy that I went out with, my parents hated him. Oh my God, it was just awful. Like, it just felt like the family was going to break apart. But, um, he turned out to be Mr. Wrong. I'm with, I'm with Mr. Right now. He's not here. He's, he's with, he's somewhere. Hi, Ewan. And I've lost my train of thought. No, just come back. So I just want to talk about, did any of you feel the pressure that you had to date a Chinese person? Yeah? Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of the tensions that we're talking about now, and that includes family relationships and dating, I think that really shows a tension between sort of Western individualism and Eastern collectivism. And I think living as a British Chinese person, we battle that a lot. And I think, you know, say if you're like saying, oh, mom, I want to bring someone home. I know my mom will be like, yeah, but like you mentioned, is he rich? What's his job? And it's really important like his ethnic background as well, whereas being brought up in London, especially, which is really multicultural, you sort of think, oh, that's really different from what I believe. And I definitely think being the youngest of six as well, I've had it quite easy in that mine by the time it got to me, my parents were quite relaxed. But I know for a fact that my oldest sibling, if they brought home a friend who happened to be a boy, like not even dating them, my mom would flip out because she's like, no, absolutely not like she's extremely strict. And I noticed it's sort of a strange experience because we code switch a lot like when you're out with your friends, you're a different person, because you're used to growing up, I love the Spice Girls who love the Spice Girls, you know, like, go power, it's all about expressing yourself, doing what you want, challenging the power, and then going home, you're just like, do absolutely what my mom and dad said. And so I just rarely talked about boys or dating because I know my mom would just absolutely flip out and say no. So yeah, it's that really weird tightrope walking of I need to please everyone and straddling two cultures essentially. Yeah. Anjali, you write about it in your book as well. Yeah, exactly same like precious as Amy, you know, my parents were very, you know, you have to marry a Chinese boy. I think it was mainly for communication, you know, my mom really wanted to, you know, for me to go out with a Chinese boy because she's like, I want to talk to them, I want to get to know them and I want to know if they're okay, like if they're right for you, I want to know their interests. And, you know, I've been with my partner Tom for like 13 years, we're like childhood sweethearts and even now she's my mom is still like, there's still time for you to like Chinese boy, like she's still matchmaking. It's Tom here. Is he watching? He's working. And then, you know, growing up, you know, whenever we went to dim sum, my mom would always try to like match make and try to set me up for the Chinese boy. She's like, Oh, you know, so and so son, he's really good looking. Maribus, because as well, I guess in Wales, it's like the Chinese or like the Asian, like the male pool is very, very small. So it's like there's only slim pickings of all you could choose. So it's always like some of those friends like son or something of like, I just had no interest in it. And, you know, I wanted to kind of explore dating in my own terms, you know, I wanted to find, you know, whoever. And I've actually had a conversation with my mom. I was like, if I wanted to go out with a Chinese boy, I would choose to go out with a Chinese boy, but there's just none in Wales, you know. And so I've always dated white guys because that was what was available to me. And the first time I brought back my boyfriend, well, the only boyfriend I've ever bought back is Tom because, you know, I've known him since I was 18. And I was so, so nervous bringing back Tom and he was terrified. So I guess I, you know, told him like what to do and bring it. So I was like, you know, make sure you bring food, bring oranges, bring for a rocher, you know, all the good things to like, please parents. And he was like, bless him. He's so nervous. And then my mom was just like, so happy that he brought stuff. And only because like I told him to. And then my mom being the feeder that she is, you know, similar, like my parents are like shows the way that they love you is through acts of service as well. Like they cook for you until you explode. So, you know, my mom would make this massive spread and Tom blessing would just keep eating and eating. And he's like, I can't stop. But like, your parents are feeding me. And I think that's when, you know, my parents like realized, oh my God, like this guy could eat like the family. And I think at the time, like Tom was working a lot and he worked like free jobs like straight out of uni. So they saw how hard working he was. And that's why they're like, Oh, yeah, he's a good one. You know, he works, he works, he could eat. So that's why they love him. And I think as well, in terms of, you know, I still get a lot of pressure because, you know, we've been together for so long. You know, I never really wanted to get married. I don't want to have kids here. And I've always been very adamant of that because, you know, that's not what I wanted. And neither does Tom. And you know, my mom is always still very pushy on that, you know, all the time. She's like, when you get married, where's the kids? Where's my grandkids? You know, and I'm like, I'm not going to give it to you because that's not what I want. And it's a lot of pressure for me. And yeah, I always find like dating is quite difficult in that sense. Because of, you know, a lot of my older cousins and my, you know, they've all got babies, they've all got married, they've all got like the traditional route and I this kind of black sheep in the family, you know, I don't want to marry, I don't want to have kids. And yeah, I think that's like dating has always been quite a difficult one just because, you know, I never really know where I stand in that sense. And, you know, my parents are still so pushy in that sense. I wonder how much of that stems from that intergenerational trauma and that survivalism that your parents experience. Because I feel like they're concerned about who you're in a relationship with, your economic status is really rooted in the fact that they had really nothing when they were growing up. And in relation to my family, they lost everything twice over. So not only are they migrants once, but migrants twice through my grandparents. And I know that for my parents, ensuring my stability has a lot to do with them still feeling the effects of losing everything. And it's similar in the way that when I bought people home, my parents be really happy if they ate all the food and finish everything. It's like he's a good one. He cares about food and feeling someone with that sustenance is a way of knowing, you know, they care about being healthy, which is something they lacked the ability to do with freedom when they were growing up. So I think it's really rooted, I think in a lot of your past, your family's past. And I think like our parents just want us to be happy with who we are authentically. At first, they kind of put all these things on you. It's like forcing, oh, marry a woman or go out with someone that is rich. And I think they just want you to be safe, happy, and just loved essentially. And I think they come to realization on their own terms. And then they realize, actually, you know, you'll be fine. And that they have to come to terms with it no matter what really, essentially. Yeah, like their idea of success and happiness is actually very different. I think they see it as having loads of money, being an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor and actually being over here and having so much more opportunity and the privilege of language, the privilege of education, being able to use that. I think they realize there are lots of different ways to be happy and to thrive. And it doesn't look exactly like having tons of money in your bank account. Yeah, it's really interesting. On the subject of dating, as an EC person or Chinese person, have you ever been objectified or fetishized? Yeah, for sure. If anyone's heard my latest song, it is just about that. It's called Ritual. And it opens with like, you know, it talks about fetishization, yellow fever being objectified. And I think especially growing up in the UK, when you enter dating, well, for me, it's like, if I have date when I have dated non Asian people, I've I've like, I've always been exoticized. It's like, Oh, my God, it's so exciting. I've never dated a Chinese person before. And then I think, Oh, like maybe this is normal. Like this is the type of dynamic I'm supposed to have with my Western counterparts. And slowly I realized, no, it's like they are putting you into, you know, something that they want you to be or something that pleases them and you start molding yourself to fit what they'd like. And a lot of that has to do with racism and hierarchies of race. And also what I think is interesting as well as you know, my mom never put that pressure on me. Because she was like, you should go date as many people as you want and find the right person. And I think as a boy, right? And the dynamic that gender binary is so stark, like girls will do this and guys are supposed to do that. And so I didn't actually have that pressure. But my sister, oh my gosh, she had so much pressure on who was she was allowed to see, who was she allowed to date. But then when I came out, it was a whole different thing. Because my parents had no idea what that would mean for me. And my mom says something really funny. She was like, Oh, yeah, you know, from what I think, like gay people, like when they date, they date for life. And they're just like, you know, they find their soulmates and they are together forever. I don't know where she got that from. I'm just like, Mom, you've not met the guys in London. But it's interesting how like, they see that as something like positive, like what they can get out of it. But in terms of being fetishized, objectified, I've had to relearn how to date. Um, yeah, that's all. And Jason just about so kind of talking as well. So I'm quite interested to learn more about your experience because because you went to school because you moved to when you're 14, you went to school in Hong Kong. And you also went to school here as well. Did you feel there was like a really big, like a huge difference between like, like culturally? Yeah. So I went into, I went to an international school in Hong Kong, which means it was an English language school where it was very international. Like I grew up with the whole spectrum of ethnicities. And although I was a ethnic majority, I was surrounded by people from all over the world. And so when I went to the UK, and everyone was very similar from a very similar economical background, who all kind of looked the same and spoke the same. And we're all white. It was very interesting because in Hong Kong, in our school, at least like we never said, this is how you do something. This is how we learn. This is how we speak. These are the words we use. We were very open to all the cultures because we grew up like that. I think coming to the UK, it was like, no, like you can't speak like this or you're made fun for doing something different. However, I would say because Hong Kong is still a colony, like the influence of British culture is very strong. And like being white was still seen as the coolest thing you could be, which I thought was crazy. The fact that I was living in Hong Kong, being white was still held as this privilege because of no racism and colonization. And just like you, I had friends who were Chinese and would be like, oh, I wish I was white, it would be so much easier, which is crazy to me. Yeah, so there's like sort of like cultural differences, but at the same time, like colonization really like pervades in Hong Kong. So yeah. And how did you find being like moving to UK, being a minority and also being part of the LGBTQIA community as well? Was that, did you find out there was like more challenges versus Hong Kong or was it? For sure. You know, I think in Hong Kong I was able to, because I think, you know, the spectrum of masculinity and femininity is quite different in Asia compared to the UK. Like in Asia, I'm not seen as that femme. I'm still femme, but like not seen as high femme. Whereas here, I am the feminist thing. And especially when you're 14 and you don't want to police how you act, you just want to be yourself. It was very difficult for me to shift because what I thought I was hiding in Hong Kong, I wasn't hiding in the UK. And that became an issue. And I put a video out during COVID where I talked about my first week in the UK. I was like crossing the road to school and this car drove past and they threw a bottle at me. They called me a chink. And I was just like, welcome to the UK. Like, this is what it's like. And that really like resonated deeply with me because I had never experienced that type of very outward violent aggressive racism. I have only experienced it kind of like in microaggressions or like embedded in society or embedded in school culture of like, this is the hierarchy of race. So it was very stark to me. And I felt unsafe. I was like, if they're so happy to do that to me, what else can they do? And that was when I was still figuring out my sexuality. I don't think I've even said to myself or understood that I was queer. So for me to have to like juggle all these things while trying to catch up at school, make friends, live on my own for the first time, like, it was a lot. But here I am, I'm okay, I'm okay. Don't clap. And what about, what about you two? What about your school life for you guys as well? Were you the only Chinese person at your school, the only POC or whatever the people? Yeah, so I went to a South London state school and I was very much mixing with people of lots of different backgrounds and heritage. And that was a really great experience. And you know, I had friends from all over the place. And then for my secondary school, I actually entered public school. So I'm not because we're rich, not because we could pay for it. I got through through some scholarship arranged by my sister, still don't know the details somehow I got in. And that was actually mostly white. And so I was basically the poor kid in the school. And there were not many other black or Asian or brown people, definitely much less. And I felt that more acutely. And I think what I experienced quite a lot as well is people homogenizing us and thinking, oh, if you're Chinese, you should hang out with the other Chinese people expecting us to like get on and not realizing that we're very different. And you have different experiences that may not necessarily just have to get on because we're Chinese. And I think that happens a lot through life. You see it in media where people just see you and they think, oh, you're Chinese, you must think a certain way. And that's why corona racism comes back because they think, well, you all carry the virus. And so I think my first experience of feeling like I had to conform to a certain way was other people assigning that to me at school. And you know, actually, I got on with lots of different people at school. And sometimes they were Asian, sometimes not. But I think more than not, people tried to say, oh, you should stick with that group. Yeah. What about you, Angela? I mean, school is hard. You know, we went to a very white dominated school. I could probably count the amount of people of color on one hand. Other than like, you know, it was my brothers and then one of my best friends who's mixed race. And there was probably another kid. And then that was it. You know, it was hard when you have no one, especially, you know, your teachers and everyone, even the teachers were like, racist to me. They would call me like, oh, Hong Kong. And, you know, people would bully me. They would do like the whole like slant eyes. And because I grew up in a Chinese takeaway, the room is spread about me about like, oh, you know, your parents use this dog and me dog me cat me. And like, you know, you, I had to kind of grow a really thick skin because of that. And I always felt like, oh, everyone's out to get me. You know, I hate everyone. So I was very like troubled as a kid. And especially, you know, I never really had a childhood because I grew up in the Chinese takeaway. So I was also never really had time to socialize with the other kids because I would constantly be working in the shop. And that was like an extra barrier. And, you know, working front of house. So I was the face of the takeaways were essentially like, I had to take on everything in terms of like, you know, being sexualized, being like, all these like racist comments. And, you know, I had all these like older men that were like trapped to, you know, I was eight years old when I first started working in the takeaway. So pretty much I grew up behind the counter. So I had all these like older men like asking me on a date, like, oh, when can I take you to Hong Kong where could be my like Asia bride. And it's like, you know, it's like really ick. You're like, oh, my God, like looking back on it, you're like, oh, but you know, growing up, I never felt that because I just felt like, oh, this is just the way of life. This is the part and parcel. And, you know, so I've had, I never really had that experience of feeling I belonged anywhere because I grew up in such a, you know, hostile environment. You know, and there was, it wasn't all bad, you know, I had a great support network. I had the owner of friends in school who were really supportive, people who saw that I was being bullied, they would stand up for me. And, you know, it was very important for me to have a support network. And I also had loads of cultural spaces where my parents were very, you know, they forced me to go to Chinese school and I would go to Dim Sum and I would spend time at my cousin's place. I always had a Chinese space because my parents would always force that on us, you know, and I would always go back to Hong Kong every year to see family. So yeah, I was always kind of juggling between like being white in school and then always had this like Chineseness at home, like where we watched, you know, Chinese, channel at home, we watched TVB, we watched cartoons, and I would read magazines in Chinese, so I always had, you know, best of both worlds in a way. And it wasn't until I really moved out, until I went to, you know, move to London that I found, you know, I felt more comfortable. And that was probably the first time I was like, oh my God, there's like another Chinese person, that's not my friend or like family friend or, you know, family, and that was like really crazy to see that there was just more people live there like me. And because I kind of grew up in this bubble, I felt very, you know, in this like isolated experience until like you, you know, I felt like I developed a lot later in life until my like 20s since I moved to London, and then I kind of started to feel more myself like, oh, I found people like me, and I connected through loads of people for online who also felt like the similar experience to me. And that's when I really started to come out of my shell more, you know, I started to feel like, oh, this is who I am, you know, I'm both Welsh and I'm both like Chinese. And that's when I, yeah, you kind of start to realize like you kind of be on your path of like your identity and realizing who you are. I think I experienced that as well, actually, and I almost see it as a cultural arrested development, because when I was growing up, and when I was most exposed to Chinese culture, when I was living my family, you know, we listened to Kanto Pop, The Four Heavenly Kings, really famous four people who were like really big in Cantonese music, we watched TVB dramas from a very specific time in the 90s. And when I left home, that stopped. And I stopped interacting with that culture as much. And I always feel like when I think about the Chinese side of me, it's always stuck in time. It's like in stasis. And so when I think about Cantonese culture now or Hong Kong, I have a very different relationship with it. And definitely through a political sphere as well, because of what's happening there now, I have to form a new relationship with it. But I definitely feel I resonate a lot with that in that trying to grow as a person has been delayed quite a lot because you're spending so much time to find out who you are, because you're being pulled between two different cultures, essentially. And so the same as you, it's only really, I believe, much older now of being able to come into myself. For example, I tried to please my parents by going to finance. And if anyone knows me, I cannot do maths. I'm so bad you should not leave me in charge of your finances. I did that for seven years, because I really wanted to please my parents. And then I was just like, F this, I can't do it. And I retrained as a designer. So I'm a creative now. My parents are like, what? They still don't really get what I do. But now, at advanced years, I finally feel like, oh, I'm actually into who I am now. You know what? With the bit in pH, so the Pan-Asian cabaret I helped run, it's really interesting because we say Pan-Asian because it's anyone who's lived in Asia, from Asia, whatever. And everyone has a very different story. And a lot of some people grew up here. Some people immigrated. Some people are first gen, second gen from all over Asia. And what I really love is seeing them reclaim and refine their identity in that journey. Because as you said, like it kind of is arrested at a certain point when it's stopped being fed to you by your parents who are trying to kind of uphold it. And that relationship of like, how do I still feel Chinese when I don't even speak Chinese, right? Well, I do speak Chinese. But like for those who don't, it is difficult because like culturally, like how can I connect to somewhere where I've not even lived in, but people treat me this way. My blood is this. And so I think, yeah, with the cabaret, we do it on stage. You know, we help people like reconnect with their roots in that kind of organic sense. Also, on your bit of like coming to London and seeing other Asians, you should go to LA or San Francisco. It's crazy. I was there last two weeks and I would walk out and like everyone's Asian. I was like, where am I? This is amazing. I was just like jaw dropped. I was like, this is crazy. There are so many Asians. My friend was like, San Francisco is like 40% Asian, like East Asian. And I was just like, that's wild to me. Yeah, but anyway, let's just side note. No, because my colleague is from Toronto. She's like, if anything, we're outnumbering everyone. Yeah, exactly. Actually, on our website, so last year for EC Heritage Month, we created a storytelling exhibition called Lancy Stars and we interviewed and talked about people who were impacted by the American Vietnam War. And we got someone called Rachel Nguyen to write something about it for us. And she wrote about intergenerational trauma. It serves our lineage to thrive. And I think that really affected me because I think that's permission for us to not feel like we have to live up to our parents expectation because they went through so much and suffered so much. I feel that as children of people who came from that generation, we feel like we need to justify what they went through and allow them to feel like everything that they suffered was worth it. And I think that looked a certain way when we were growing up, you know, being stable, being economically sound. And I think now we're starting to reframe it and we're seeing it as being able to be joyful, being your full self and most importantly, being able to rest because that's something they never got to do. As soon as my parents hit ground in the UK, it was like, you know, survive, survive, live and live, work. You know, you can barely stop to breathe. And I think now with the advantages that I have felt from what they've given me, I can finally actually just like chill, which is quite nice and do stuff like be seen, which is very rewarding, which I don't think they would have had a chance to do in their time. Yeah. I think it's amazing how some of our parents who immigrated from Hong Kong China, like I will never, ever, ever understand the hardship that they've gone through. I mean, I feel like I've picked quite a bad picture sometimes when talking about them on my podcast, you know, I don't get on that well with them. We've got, you know, culture challenges, cultural differences, but I'll, I'm so grateful for everything that they sacrificed just so I can live comfortably. But yeah, anyway, mum's watching, isn't she? Very quick question before we go into Q&As. I just want to talk about what our favorite Chinese dish is. Sorry, talk about three notes. So a completely changed subject. Sorry. Yes. Anyway, our favorite Chinese dish, you can choose one. Jason, do you want to go for this? No, I want to go last. I didn't think about it. You know, I actually created these questions and then I forgot to like work out my head, like what I was like. Whilst I'm thinking, Amy, do you want to tell us what your favorite Chinese dish is and why? So I know I'm going to betray Team Noodle now, because there's an ongoing debate between Team Noodle and Team Rice. I love congee. Yeah. I think maybe because it's really cold outside and a bit chilly and maybe I'm leaning more towards that. But I think that's just the ultimate comfort food. So if anyone who doesn't know, it's like a rice porridge that you boil for a long, long time and the rice gets broken down and you could put loads of different toppings on it. And it's just like a hug in a bowl. Well, a hug in a bowl. Congee is so good. Yeah. I actually had that for lunch. That's what I was going to say. Oh, sorry. No, again, like I love congee and this place is satin that does chicken, satin. And it's like the chicken in Hong Kong. It's silky. It's so good. And it's like, again, like you said, it's like a hug in a bowl. But it's, it was what I would eat when I was ill or when I was sick. And my mum would always make it for me. And it was because it's easy to digest, you know, it's, it's plain bold rice. And then it's kind of broken down with like a watery porridge. It depends how thick you want it. I like it thick. And you can have all these toppings to it. You know, you can have like spring onions, white pepper, pickled bamboo shoots and like fried gluten. It's almost like pick and mix that you can add all your toppings or even add yaw zha guai, which is like the yut hao, which is a fried dough stick that you can like dip in. I would probably say congee as well. I love congee. But if not as a backup, I can't choose one. But I love them. I just love the simplicity of steamed sea bass with ginger and spring onions. Like it's such a show stopping dish. And it's so easy to kind of make because you just, you know, have a fish, prep it and then put soy sauce and slice ginger and spring onion, then put it in the steamer. And it just comes out amazing, you know, everyone's just always like, Oh my God, that looks amazing. You put so much effort into it. But it's such a skill to serve it. Yeah, you have to really know how to decant a fish to just like imagine if you're just giving an entire fish, can you serve that to everyone? Like that is your job as the kid of a table to do it. I would eat the eyes. I love the eyes, the eye jelly. People get really freaked out. And I'm like, I like the eyes. Eye jelly. And then people like get really freaked out. Like, why are you eating the eyeballs? I'm like, yeah, but I love it. And then my mum's always like very happy. She's like, Oh yeah, omega free, like eating the fish eyes is the best part for your brain. And you can't flip the fish because it's like flipping, flipping a boat. Yeah. So you have to finish one side. Yeah. So it means fan toll, which means like upsizing like your belly, which is bad luck. So it means signifies death. You can never ever flip a fish. Yeah. You always just take the bone, slide it out, and then you eat the onion. Unless you're like me, just wait until no one's watching. Just flip it over quick. Really funny. My brother is here. He's why I grew up here. And when he came to Hong Kong, I made him eat a fish head. And even I wouldn't do that, but I made him do it. And it was really funny to watch. He made him do it. What's your favorite Chinese dish? Okay, I'm going to say two because I can't choose one. No, you can pick one. I chose two. Okay. So I think because I grew up with it, and it's like a kid's favorite, it's sweet and sour pork, but like very specifically Hong Kong style, not that crazy shit they serve here. Like with like proper like real pineapple that they properly steam and the sauce is a bit more viscous, not just like syrup. But unlike the pork is kind of battered really well. And just yeah, that's my favorite, favorite. My second favorite I would say is chicken feet in any style. Just serve me. Chicken feet, goose feet, duck feet, like just give me feet. I love poultry feet. And that freaks people out here, but I'm just like, why would you waste, if you're going to kill the animal, you better use all of it. So those are my two. And we talk about texture because I feel like what's coming through here is like gelatinous sort of glue peak. I love that. It's so important. People are afraid of texture in the UK. It's like, oh my God, it tastes rubbery. I was like, yes, that's why I eat it. Yeah, exactly. I know. I think my favorite is su long bao, Shanghai dumplings. I just love it when it's like, and when they serve it to you have to eat it when it's hot because if it goes cold, then it just like solidifies and love it when you just bite into it and then it bursts. It's like a volcano. It's like bursting in there and then like your tongue goes like really burnt. Oh, I just love it. So good. Thank you so much, everyone. I think we're just going to go for some Q and A's. I've got some online Q and A's here as well, which I'll read out. I think this is a question for us all. Do you remember the first time that you saw yourself represented in a book? And do you have any book recommendations that have inspired or helped you? Very Cho Chang Harry Potter, I think was the first proper one that I know from memory. I think a book that I recommend actually is, I read it recently, it's called Wondering Souls and it's actually not out yet, sorry. I read an advanced copy, but it's out next year. It's just so good. It's by Cecil Pin and I've never ever read a book that was specifically about the experience of forced migrants from Vietnam into the UK and what they went through. I think a lot of people don't really talk about it because it's not taught in schools. I think our education could do a lot to be improved and talk about that. But I think that book was one that I felt really seen because I think it talked out the stories that I went through and yeah, I recommend that Wondering Souls. I don't know. I'm trying to think. I think it's probably the same. I've never read a Harry Potter book but everyone knew about Cho Chang because there was the whole like casting, they were looking for a Chinese girl to be part of Harry Potter and I think everyone, I think even my mum here, she's like, oh, you should go audition and I was like, I'm told to audition. And I think everyone, like any Chinese girl during that age was like, oh, you will have to audition. And then when, yeah, I think that was the time that I first come across like a Chinese person in literature. But also like the laziest name, Cho Chang. The last names put together. But a book I would recommend would probably be Caffe Pot Hong, My Minor Feelings. That was a great book I read during COVID, especially during the height of the COVID related hate crimes. It really made me rethink and like relearn and unlearn things in terms of like how, you know, you would approach a situation and I feel like every Asian, East South Asian person should read it because you start to like read it and you're like nodding your head off so much that your, you know, your head of probably fall off. You're like, oh my god, like I felt the same. And, you know, the way that she provides commentary in the situations is also funny and it's also kind of light-hearted. But yeah, I've totally recommend everyone to read it. It's kind of like the Bible for me, I would say. I don't really have one from like growing up. I really enjoyed Last Boat Out of Shanghai, which is a journalist's kind of sensationalist recounting of the Cultural Revolution and people leaving China. But actually one book I really resonated with, although a very different experience, is The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, which talks about a young black girl in Southern America growing up wanting to be white and have blue eyes. And like, although our experience is very different, the sentiment of, you know, white power was it was the first time I really saw it written out in literature as just they never explicitly said it, but it was the way that it was embedded in every single decision these characters made as like kids that affected all their like every part of their lives that really I kind of resonated with that sentiment mostly. I think with me, so I have a little girl called Sadie, she's four, and I've been reading some books to her, particularly books with EC characters. And there's an author called Maisie Chan, who is her books really represent the EC community really fairly, even to the point where the characters are illustrated to how we look rather than stereotypical, you know, small eyes. So I'd really recommend Maisie Chan. Also, take away from Angela Hoi. There is Angela, you have a question here. So without questions from Naomi, thanks Naomi, if you write that. I've got one question to Angela, if you feel comfortable answering this from Pauline Lern, she's put Angela, how do you handle the continued challenging conversations with your mum about not having kids? That's a deep one. I mean, I constantly butt heads, you know, she's always trying to force that on me. And I told her, I'm not gonna have kids, I'm gonna have a dog. She's like, have a logic to dogs. I'm like, fine, never come over. It's, I mean, it's such an ongoing battle, like she still forces that every time we go home, and especially like big events where we come back together like Christmas or New Year's. I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that one out. I'm still trying to figure out like the conversation around it. I feel like it's, she finds, she calls me selfish that I'm not getting married or having kids because, you know, she always thinks like it's your duty to kind of bring on the next generation. But I don't think she sees it and I think she's just not educated enough in that sense because she's always grown up in a very traditional path in terms of getting married, having kids, getting the next generation, providing for the next generation. And I'm, you know, that's why she calls me selfish. It's like, well, you're kind of stopping the lineage. But I don't see it that way because I see it as, you know, I want to do what's right for me. And I've never been a maternal person. I've never had that, oh, I really want a baby or that fresh born baby smell. Like that's never been me. And I've never really, I've always felt really awkward around kids. Like I don't know, when someone gives me a baby, I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like I love playing with other people, like my cousins. And I love playing with all my other like family, friends, kids, but I've just never wanted that. And so I'm still figuring out a conversation. I don't know, maybe we'll probably end up falling out of it. And I don't know, but I feel like it's just me trying to talk to her and explain the reasons why. And I've always said, like, you know, I don't want to have kids because one, I think it's fucking expensive to have kids, right? It's how are you supposed to have a kid? And especially in like today's climate, you know, it's like global warming and all this, you know, rising costs of everything. And there's overpopulated. And there's just like, those are so many reasons why I don't want to have a kid. It's like, I don't want to add to that as well. So yeah, there's is an ongoing conversation. I'll let you know when I find the answer. Also, I think it's interesting that like throughout this whole conversation, we've mainly just spoken about our moms. And like, we haven't actually mentioned our dad as like a solo figure. It's always like our parents or our mom, because like, the dads are just like the stoic figure at the back, who will make the mom relay everything to us? Because the mom is the one capable of talking about her feelings a little bit. There are like six women in my family and two men. And you can tell when we're around the dinner table, like my brother and my dad, there's hardly a peep from them. And it's just me and my sister's going, we're like talking over each other. So I think my dad just goes with it. So that questions from Pauline. Thank you, Pauline. I think we've got time for a few Q&As in the live audience here. If you have any questions, please raise your hand. Oh my God, I was so excited. The, oh, just pick someone please. Way to show your audience some love. Hi. I've really enjoyed the event. Thank you very much. I myself have been thinking about something I haven't heard many people talking about. I've been thinking about like the kind of, the anglicized way of the way we talk about our surnames. And because I've been seeing and hearing more about other cultures where they pronounce their names more accurately to the way it should be. Like what do you think about that? Like should we be pronouncing our surnames? Especially I think Cantonese like pronunciation is a little bit harder for like English people. Should we try to do it properly and introduce ourselves properly? That's a really tough one. I think we were just talking about that quite recently with Han Lee. I don't know where she is. I think just with how our names are pronounced. This is just my personal opinion. I think if names are mispronounced, as long as people are making the effort to say our names and even if it's mispronounced, I don't, I think I'm okay with that. I don't know if you guys are as well. It's only, I think when they, so for example, my Chinese name is Ma Puyu, but I also have a British name as well. But if, for example, I didn't have the British name and my full name is Ma Puyu, and if someone said to me, oh, I don't know how to pronounce it, I'm just going to call you Porta or whatever, I think then that would be, I'll find it a bit offensive. But if someone mispronounced my name, Ma Puyu, then I think I'd be okay with it because at least the try-in, I don't know about. I think it's, I think it's, that's a very interesting point. I've not really thought about it. In Hong Kong, for me, like, like Jason was, I was born with that name and so with my Chinese name, but I also lived in Shanghai. So then I would say my name in Mandarin. And so when I've come over here, I'm like, well, like, in a way, I couldn't be bothered. I was just like, just, and like, I remember people that asked me as a quan, or as a quan, or as a quan, and people would always get it wrong or say something different. And I remember thinking like, I don't really know how to say it in English, because it's not an English word. I definitely think like each to one's own. I think it's a really good, yeah, really good point. I'm going to start thinking about that and forcing people to say my name properly. I have to say, I have a four-year-old daughter too, and trying to teach a Cantonese, doing really badly at it by the way. And yeah, we have books where we talk through certain words and I try and read in Cantonese. And my partner who blessed him, he does try, but sometimes he gets the tone wrong. And I actually have to say don't because you're going to teach her the wrong tone. And it's so hard to learn from such a young age. And I feel if someone gets a tone wrong, it's a feeling in me. It's like, no, that's wrong. I can't like deal with it because I know it's completely wrong tone. It has a different meaning. And so I think that's why I just say, you know, my name is Amy Fung, but I don't go, I'm Amy Fung, because I just feel like that's going to take someone a while. I mean, I think if the intention was there, I would definitely own it and start asking people to call me Funga Mei. But I just think the effort it would take is quite a lot. I think it has to be a mass movement. You need to start a petition. Use our names of our heritage. Yeah, I'm the same as you two with Geordie as well. I think I used to be really bothered by it, you know, because I feel like people used to pick on me for my name. So they would call me like Ahoy or Huy. And it really frustrated me. And I was like, pronounce my name properly. It's not hard. But, you know, I think it was just a lot of aggression on taking it out on people. But as I've gotten older, I think of, you know, even I don't even know how to pronounce my name. It's a weird like Huy, you know, it's like lo-hi, like how do you even say it? And plus in like Mandarin, it's like shh, it sounds completely different. So I was like, what? But I feel like I'm not, like as long as it's like the intention is not out of malice, then that's okay in terms of like, you know, you're trying. But like recently, I like put my Chinese name in like my Twitter and my like social media. And I was like, it was such an emotional moment because I've never really put my Chinese name out there or anything. And for it to kind of like see it in like a, you know, in pixels online, you're like, oh my God, like, I've actually never like acknowledged my Chinese name because I've always been so embarrassed by it. And then you're suddenly like faced with it. It's sort of a very empowering feeling to be able to like, oh, I have two names. Like that's such a cool thing to say. Like I've got more names than you. But yeah, I've always said like, if it's not out of malice and they're trying, then that's not too bad. But just, yeah, maybe we should petition, you know, call us by Chinese names forever now. We should completely change our names to the Chinese characters. Just leave it. You're embarrassed for different reasons. So like for me, like my Chinese name is embarrassing. Like, it means like my last name. And then it's like intelligent clever. And I'm just like, I don't want to be saying that to people all the time. It's so Cantonese. I feel like what is your Chinese name? What is your Chinese name? And she's like, so like my mom wants me to be the smart kid. I'm going to name him smart smart. I'm like, thank you mom. I feel like my Cantonese name, it's like, it has a purpose. And I like that. It's sweet. You know, my, my Chinese name is Hoi Ji Yan, which means like purple grace. You know, I'm not going to be called purple grace. Like people start singing purple rain to me, you know. But my parents were, you know, we're all called Zee something. So I was like, my brother said Zee Gui and Zee Hong health. And I came to be Zee Yan, which is like a bit more feminine. So, you know, there's always meaning behind it. But I quite like having the meaning, you know, it's like a double entendre. Like, oh, I mean, yeah, yours is really nice though. And I think we might have time for one, maybe two more. The lady in the purple. Yeah. God is really refreshing listening to you guys. I'm actually your mom's generation. Honestly, you guys represent my children. And one of my girls, right? I got four children. One of my girls, one day she said to me, you say, mom, you never hug me. Why? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with us? And then I said, I actually shocked me because I never actually thought about that. And then I thought, yeah, maybe you're right. But I said, this is me. I can't do anything different, you know. And she was crying her eyes out. And then I thought to myself, how am I going to change that? And you know, to change a lifetime habit. It's so difficult. So what I started doing was, in my text, I said, I love you. It was like a one-off thing. And then they sort of, they said, oh, man, this is so nice. I sound like your daughter. I sound like your daughter. That's really sweet, that is. You know what? I've never actually thought about that. I've never actually thought about how my mom would feel because I'd be like, mom, tell me you love me. Give me your hug. It's really refreshing to hear. And the other thing is, I just wonder, because it's so different, our upbringing and yours are bringing. And it's hard for us to understand you guys. But because I thought, okay, we're living in London now, or in England. So I tried to change. So I always turned a blind eye to what my children do. Because I thought, I can't be, you know, one of my daughters is really, really naughty. She was doing all sorts of naughty things. But you know, and it's a part of growing up. So I'm so glad I let her do it. I mean, if I was living in Malaysia, I mean, she would be like, I would probably tie her up in a room or something like that. Anyway, it's so refreshing listening to you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Just to quickly respond to that as well. I think, you know, if I were thinking about what I would like from my mom, for example, I would love for her to ask me, like, how would you like for me to show you that I love you? Because we have such different ways, like love languages, so different from generation to generation from culture to culture. If she asked me, I'll be like, you can do this, this and that. And I will feel love just take those boxes and maybe she can do it. Maybe she can't. But like, at least she would know. And I think the fact that now you know what your daughter, you know, reacts to and what they like, like, I think that's beautiful. Well, you can ask. I love that, though. I love that growth because I think when I'm talking as a mother, I know that there are certain things that my parents gave me that I'm really proud of and that I can continue and pass on to my daughter. But there are things also that I want to take that I've learned, like, you know, I say I love you to my daughter a lot. I probably overcompensate completely. I hug her loads. She's like, get off me. And I think it's really great to have all that mixing pot of different influences feed into someone who now I have to take care of. And yeah, I think with my parents, I think their growth is going to come eventually. I hope so. I hope one day. And I know I have to initiate that, you know, like you say, I need to start talking about it. But certainly with my own daughter, it's like breaking certain cycles and starting new ones. Such a lovely question or comment to end on. So it's come to the end of our show. So I feel like I have to really reach down to say hi to this little crew here. I come to the end of the show. Thank you so much to the panelists here. And honestly, I am so, I was quite nervous when I came up. So I feel like I didn't really say everything I wanted to say. But thank you so much to the British Library for actually putting on an exhibition on British and Chinese. No way. It's so weird. So cool as well. I really hope this is the first of many more exhibitions to come talking about the EC community in the UK. The British Chinese exhibition is on until the 23rd of April. 23rd of April. Yep. Thank you. Whoever said that. Yeah. 23rd of April. It's a free exhibition. It's just downstairs. It's amazing. I'd really encourage you all to go down. So thank you so much guys. I think Hanley's coming back up. Can we plug ourselves? Can we plug ourselves? Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. I just wanted to say. No shame. Not even for me. But like, so the bit and peach, which is the queer Asian cabaret that I'm part of, we're doing two theater shows on December 2nd and 3rd at the Pleasance Theater. It's going to be a huge celebration of just Asian talent. It's going to be drag. It's going to be live music. It's going to be stupid. It's going to be camp. Like if you'd like to go, please come. It's going to be amazing. They're kind of like our end of your rap shows. And in the end of January 2023, we throw a Lunar New Year party and we have loads of events. So if you have nowhere to celebrate Lunar New Year, come do it with the queer as fuck bit and peach. And you can find it. I'm at Jason Club Music on Instagram and bit and peach UK as well. Thank you. That sounds amazing. Super fun. And do you know where can we find you as well? If you want to find you on Instagram or social media. Is it there? I don't know. Probably not. I was like at Twitter. I'm like at Angela underscore hoy. And then Instagram is at Angela HII because someone stole my name. So I know. I know. I want that Instagram. It's just an empty account. Come on. And I guess you can find me in my work through a lot of the mainstream media through time out, Financial Times, Guardian. And I mainly work at Recky, which is the food ordering app, which is for like chefs and suppliers. You can buy my book. Oh God, I hate talking about my books like nonstop since July. So I'm like really sick of it. You can buy it. You don't have to buy it. I don't mind. Buy it. Go buy it. It's so good. Book is called Takeaway. And yeah, it's about my life growing up in the Chinese takeaway in the rural Wales. And it's out everywhere and the paperback's coming out next year. So if you hate hardback, it's a wait for it. But I also did the audio book so you can listen to my really annoying Welsh voice. I love your voice. Oh my God, no. But yeah, I also did the audio book, if you want to listen to it. But yeah. That's mainly my life. Where can we find you, Amy? Yeah. If you like food pictures, me moaning about staff or anything of that kind, then I'm on underscore Amy underscore Pixpix. But more importantly, you should follow BCN for relevant content. Yeah. That's at b e s e a dot n on Instagram and then underscore instead for Twitter. Cool. And I'm on Instagram, Chinese Chippy Girl. I'm kind of on Twitter, Madame Scoot. But to be honest with you, I only use Twitter when I'm complaining to customer services. That's my parcel. Thank you so much, guys. I think Hanley's going to come up. Thank you very much for our wonderful guest speakers tonight in conversation with us. Really appreciate that you accept our invitation and willing to share the story with us. Particularly it's not easy and to the pop, to the pop leak. Really appreciate and thank you. Thank you to Georgie Ma, Ma Puyu, Amy Fong, Wong Gan Moi, Angela Huy, Huy Ji Young, and Jason Guan, thank you very much. Thank you. We also give it up for Han Lee, who is Taiwanese, but learn all of our Cantonese names. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. I also would like to thank you all for being our audience today at the British Library and online. Thank you for joining us in the event. We'd love to welcome you back again to the British Library for more events, performance conversations. So please do keep eye on our WhatsApp website to find out more events associated to the exhibitions. Once again, the exhibition will open until 23rd April 2023. So please do come and visit us. You can also view the past events on our British Library viewer. So do come and join us. Thank you all again. Thank you and good night. Thank you.