 Ac ydych yn credu fel gwybod ddim yn gwneud hynny nad yw'n mynd i'r rhan o'r ddiogel ar gyfer fwrdd, oedd o fwy o un pethau. On credu fel gweithio fel hyn y bydd genno ffyrdd i hynny, ac mae gennym i gyddo'r ddweud o dda. Mae'n gweithio'r ddifפרol butt a gweithio i'r gweithio ar gyfer'r gweithio'r ddweud o'r ddweud i'r gweithio'r ddweud o'r ddweud. can join if they have unavoidable clashes at other times. But yeah, great to see some familiar faces and some names I'm not that familiar with as well. So please do write in the chat who you are and where you're working maybe and anything that you would like us to know. We have a packed agenda, so we're going to move fairly swiftly on. And we're going to hear from colleagues in Somalia. We also have an update on the global HLP, which myself and on British Emperor with UN Habitat will provide. We're going to hear from the Shelter Cluster and their HLP advisor. We're also going to hear from colleagues working in Ukraine. I see Michael there and I think John will join at the right time. He's probably here already. Also, we have Lorena Nieto and Caroline Espinosa from the R4B platform. So I was working with refugees from Venezuela who are going to provide an update. And then we'll be over to you for any updates as well. You would like to give us on your work or areas of interest related to HLP, housing and property. So, Shazan, I'll turn to you first. You're going to give us an update on the work that you've been doing in Somalia. But please do introduce yourself and over to you. Thank you, Jim, and good afternoon and good morning. So I'm just going to share my screen. So just let me know when you can see it. Yes. Yep, see it now. OK, just give me a moment. Sure. As always, any time if you have questions or comments, please feel free to use the chat. You can also raise your hand and do all those kinds of things as well. And I'll come to you when I can. But yeah, please, Shazan, over to you. OK, thanks, Jim. So my name is Shazan Kirubi and I'm the Information, Counseling and Legal Assistant Specialist in Somalia. And I'm going to be presenting on our cost analysis on the losses that we have made in investments and infrastructures due to forced evictions in Somalia in 2022. And maybe just to start off, when we decided to undertake this analysis, it was to inform the current advocacy we wanted to inform it based on evidence. But also we've seen that housing land and property is not being prioritised within the emergency response. So it's not like wash or food that are considered as a priority. So this was to inform and advocate for further funding, but also prioritisation and integration of HLP within the emergency response. So maybe just to start off is just with a bit of context. So forced evictions, as we all know, is widely acknowledged as a key issue, key protection concern in Somalia. And this year because of the ongoing drought and looming famine, but also conflict that has arisen in the later part of the year, we've seen that more than 1.7 million individuals have been displaced because of drought and conflict. And majority of these newly displaced families are joining urban centres. So they are settling in IDP settlements that are predominantly hosted on privately owned land without any secure land tenure arrangements. According to the latest data, over 90% of IDP settlements in Somalia are settled in urban and peri-urban centres. And majority of these are on privately owned land. So within the same period that is between January and November 2022, over 150,000 individuals, 158,000 individuals have been possibly evicted in Somalia. And the highest number of evictions took place in the first half of the year. And that's also when we saw a large increase in displacement figures. So it went hand in hand. Barnardier region remains a key hotspot for forced evictions with over 81% of all evictions being recorded in the year, reported in two districts in Mogadishu, known as Danila and Khada. And forced evictions is due to a number of factors in Somalia. Most of these are inter-relating. So it can be illegal occupation and squatting, land grabs, development and infrastructure projects, which has seen an increase in land value. So most private land owners are claiming back their land for development. Under urban redevelopment, contested in multiple claims and natural hazards. As we've seen, flood risk, potential flooding and drought and farming. However, despite these high numbers, we've also seen an increase in eviction prevention taking place. And that has been because of the coordinated approach taken by the HLPAOR and its partners. So in 2022, for the first time since we started eviction monitoring in Somalia, we've seen that the eviction prevention figures are actually higher than the evictions being reported. So we have over 176,000 individuals that have been protected from forced evictions because of preventive engagements. So this is just to show you the statistics from 2018 to 2022. And this data is public. It's on our dashboard. For those who do not have the link, we are going to share it after this meeting. So you can see since we started eviction monitoring, we started further back in 2015, 2016, but we usually consider the data from 2018 as the most accurate. So from 2018 to 2022, you can see the trend. Evictions have largely decreased, even though the number is still quite high and there's been an increase in eviction prevention. So, in terms of the human impact, before we go to the cost analysis, we just wanted to highlight the human impact of forced evictions as we largely know. We've seen that forced evictions intensifies inequality, social conflict and segregation. It also affects the most vulnerable and marginalised groups, such as women, children, minorities, the elderly and people with disabilities. We've also seen that forced eviction results in severe trauma and serious declines in the standard of living. It perpetuates this vicious cycle of living in extreme poverty and displacement, but also it renders people homeless and landless. We've also seen the impact of forced evictions on physical and mental health, and this is an area that remains largely unaddressed in Somalia. The eviction risk assessments that have been undertaken by the HLPAOR and its partners have alluded to the fact that forced evictions has led to an increase in our worsened health conditions, particularly in mental health, but also a study that was done back in 2021 highlighted that IDPs reported issues such as diarrhea, malaria, pneumonia, measles, skin infections, as well as mental health issues such as anxiety stress, physical distress and trauma. Also, we have the impact on forced evictions on children and families. We've seen that forced evictions, and I will show you from the cost analysis, that forced evictions leads to children not being able to attend schooling, one because of the disruption that it causes when a family is evicted, but also the distraction to schools that we've also seen. We've also seen that children that undergo forced evictions have experienced some mental health issues such as increased anxiety stress and also trauma. This is just to give you in hindsight what we did. Through the use of our different partners, but also our paralegals, we largely looked at the data that we had for forced evictions in 2022, and in Barnadir, because it's quite high what we did for Barnadir region, we only considered evictions that affected over 1,000 families, but in the rest of the location, so in Jubaland, Pwngtland and Somaliland, we looked at all forced eviction events that were reported. This is because in Barnadir, we have quite a number of small-scale, but also large-scale evictions. Then we also talked to different camp leaders and different communities, and we also went back to the sites that were impacted by evictions. As you can see, through this analysis, we were able to gather that over 6,000 latrines have been destroyed in Somalia. A majority of the distraction was on wash infrastructure. Latrines, water points, what we call as backhards in Somalia. So these are probably like larger, I don't know how to describe it, but larger wells, not wells, but water areas for water. We also saw destruction of schools and temporary learning centres, solar streetlights, community centres, which again, we saw large destruction from community centres that were actually put up by the community themselves. We also saw large distractions of other businesses, but small-scale businesses, but we weren't able to quantify that. In this analysis, we just included, we looked at site-level infrastructure, so water points, latrine schools, nutrition centres, MCHs. So that was what we looked at, but there was, of course, other the distraction of small-scale businesses and housing that we weren't able to quantify. So the costing is actually much higher than what we projected. Then also other things that we weren't able to quantify is the disruption to education that we see that over 80% of households that are affected by eviction no longer send their children to school due to high transport costs. And most of the time, most families would go through evictions, probably more than one. So we've seen families being impacted by evictions up to five times. So just to put it in hindsight. Then we also included a number of other costs that are incurred at a household level due to forced evictions, and this is mainly relocation costs. So relocation of schools, relocation of community centres, relocation of IDP shelters, so the housing infrastructure itself, also the transport costs, we included that. So from this, we were able to estimate that in total, the humanitarian and communities have lost an estimated of $4.6 million, and this is just an estimated cost. As I said before, we were just looking at site level destruction of infrastructure, so we really didn't look at household level. So this costing is just an estimated cost, and what we could see at the end of the year is much higher than this. But this just puts things into perspective in terms of how we're doing our own programming and how we're setting up infrastructures in sites without secure land tenure arrangements in place. So for the humanitarian, you can see the highest costing was in Mogadishu, which again corresponds to the data because over 80% of evictions take place in Mogadishu. So we could see $3.4 million in terms of loss, but also $1.6 million for the humanitarian community and $1.7 million for the community infrastructures. And this was mainly latrines and water points, but also community centres for the community. Then by door, we could see about $290,000 loss, $229,000 for the humanitarian community and $66,000 for the communities. Then Kismayo, about $127,000 loss, $52,000 for the humanitarian community and $75,000 for the communities themselves. Then in Punsland, we undertook the analysis in Garowe, Bursaso and Galkayo, and we estimated a loss of over $620,000, $480,000 from the humanitarian community and $138,000 from the community itself. Then lastly, Somaliland, whereby we looked at Haagesa, Lasanoad and Bebera and Boroma. We saw about 160,000 loss, 151,000 from the humanitarian community and 9,000 from the community itself. So this gives you a total estimated loss of $4.6 million. So what are the recommendations? When I began, it was to explain to you the main reason why we undertook this kind of analysis, and it was because we were finding that HLP issues are not being prioritised within the emergency response. So you can see from our analysis, if we don't mainstream and prioritise HLP issues from the very onset, then this can cause serious harm to displacement affected communities. It's also important that we map out HLP issues at the very onset of an emergency, and for Somalia specifically, this has included identifying eviction hotspots, mapping out the risks, undertaking land tenure analysis to also inform targeting and potential sites for infrastructure investments. The HLP AOR has combined a list for sites that have secured tenure and has shared this out largely with other clusters to consider this for their targeting. We also need to prioritise HLP due diligence prior to investing or establishing any form of infrastructure, whether it's in the short, medium or long term. The second recommendation is on strengthening area-based coordination, and we need to ensure that resources are allocated for the establishment of functional area-based coordination mechanisms. Somalia is a country where we have good practice when it comes to the establishment of government-led eviction task forces, and this is something that we need to continue investing in to ensure that we're not only coordinating when it comes to eviction prevention initiatives, but also when it comes to reporting on forced evictions, because what we've seen in Somalia is that individual agencies are reaching out to local authorities when an eviction takes place to ensure continuity of services, but we need to ensure a coordinated approach to have maximum impact. Then the last recommendation is a bit more long term, and it's on investing in capacity development and in legal and policy reform, and this is to ensure that HLP is made sustainable and also institutionalised within our response. So this we're talking about prioritising the review and development of functional land systems, including land governance and land administration in Somalia, because we still have a very weak policy and legal framework when it comes to HLP. Then we also need to prioritise the HLP capacity needs of local authorities to ensure our response is sustainable. So of late we've said undertaking capacity needs assessment, and we're using this to inform our trainings, technical assistance and the provision of material support in that addressing HLP capacity gaps. So I'll stop there and back to you, Jim, and I'm happy to answer any question. Thank you very much, Shazam. Yes, let's straight away open up for any questions or comments. I don't know if this sort of approach of this sort of cost analysis is something that you've seen before or done yourselves. I thought it was quite an interesting way to frame the human impact of forced evictions, but also the economic impacts as well. And I suppose an initial question from me, Shazam, is do you see this as an advocacy source that you can use to sort of advocate? And how would you use this data that you've compiled around the sort of costs, would you say? Yep. Should I answer that fast or another question? Actually, I see a couple of hands raised, so let's get those other questions and then we can do around. Yeah, Joseph, over to you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this is Joseph Shekla from Housing and Land Rights Network. We have also developed a methodology for quantifying cost losses and damages in the case of eviction, whether it's eviction or other dispossession or destruction, or even the changes or violations of human rights that arise from the context of privatisation. And we've also adapted that to the values of women in cases of various denials of inheritance rights and other kinds of serial dispossession. And this year adapted that for cases where a duty holder or other liable party is responsible for a violation of housing and land rights in the context of climate change. So it's a really, really interesting approach. It's very adaptable. You've even scaled it up to apply to land restitution and Yemen in the case of what someday transitional justice. And it really is an excellent advocacy tool. I can just verify from our experience. It's really great to see that happening here. Thanks, Joseph, and do feel free to share any links of anything that might be useful for us to look at as well. Yeah, we have about 30 applications. I'll put a couple of links on that chat. Thanks, thank you, Joseph. Thank you. So on breta, then Jamal, and then I'll come back to you, Shazam. Thank you. Thank you, Jim, and thank you, Shazam, for the very excellent and informative presentation. And good afternoon, everyone, or good morning and good evening. I also placed in the chat a report we prepared that you inhabited a research on land and conflict in the southern Somalia and Jubaland. And I want to stress one of the part of the recommendation that we're also in the presentation, which is basically the need of a function in land administration system. Because, I mean, over the years, and actually I started myself working in Somalia, I think in 2004, we have pumped millions, if not billions, actually for sure billions, into humanitarian assistance. And I think that what we see on the ground is not comparable to the investment made. And also, I mean, there is a lot of lessons learned and capacity we built and tools we developed and successful approaches. We tested also an HLP collectively from various organisations, including of course an RC, UN Habitat, UNHCR, DRC, et cetera. So, I mean, the presentation was mentioning that there are illegal transaction and illegal occupation and land grabbing. The reality is that basically there is no way in Somalia no one can buy or sell land legally. Because there is not a functioning, except in some few urban centres. Basically, I mean, there is not a system that records who has the right to, on what, looking at private owners, but also state. It's not clear which level of state has the right to take which decision on land, if it's the federal state, if it's the federal government or the state, if it's the municipality, which department. So, there is a complete unclearity also, as was mentioned in the presentation at the legal and institutional framework. And there is not a functioning land registration system. So, in fact, it's impossible to say who is the rightful owner and therefore who has the, how to secure the secondary rights on the land owners. Because, of course, if one has the right to stay or the right to rent or the right to stay on a plot of land for a specific amount of time under specific conditions, also the rights of the owner who owns the land below these secondary rights needs to be protected and needs to be clear who this person or this institution is. And that's completely missing in Somalia. So, overall, I mean, as well in our report, and I conclude, we really focus very much on the fact that we need to establish a functioning land recordation system to clarify the land rights bit by bit, to resolve disputes or disagreements on that side, and overall build a functioning legal and institutional set of system that supports this with a link with data information infrastructure. So, in a way, definitely all what was mentioned is good and important, but we will not at the end ever be able to reach anywhere at scale that is sustainable without working on the longer-term perspective as well. Thank you very much, and over. Thanks, Ombretta. I'll turn to you, Jamal, and then back to Shazan. Yes, thank you very much, Jim. Thank you very much, colleagues. And of course, thank you so much, Shazan, for what has been a very informative presentation. I think there are some very useful lessons to be drawn from what you would have just shared. I do agree entirely with Ombretta on some of the macro-level initiatives that serve as, if I may say, cross-cutting imperatives to the achievement of improved tenure security in the context of Somalia. But I think that there are also some micro-level, and Shazan, we would have had this conversation a couple of months ago, and I take this opportunity to note the exceptional work done by NRC, where cash for rent is concerned, and the tremendous opportunity around the HDP nexus that exists in that regard. But I would just like to highlight that there are perhaps a number of micro-level initiatives that are perhaps entrained potentially on paper, but also in practice, as have been facilitated whether via the National Durable Solution Strategy of Somalia, specifically the components to speak to housing, land, and property. And of course, the nexus-related opportunities that exist in that regard are recognising that synergy between the protection-related work or the protection-oriented work and the solutions-oriented work. And I take, for example, the work around the evictions moratorium, specifically, I think, for example, of the operationalisation of the national evictions guidelines. It would be really interesting to hear what is being done in that regard, as well as the interim protocol on the distribution of housing. And that's just one of those micro-level initiatives that we can perhaps look into whether at the level of the HLPAOR. And then, of course, the implementation of the April 2020 evictions moratorium, really drawing from lessons around the by-door district administration, the work that has been done in that regard, where the evictions moratorium, evictions monitoring, et cetera, is concerned. So I think perhaps we can put a question to the table, or perhaps to you, Shazan, as in some of the opportunities that may exist at the micro-level, some of the small initiatives. Cash-for-end, what is the scope for cash-for-end from a next standpoint in really facilitating the reduction of evictions across displacement-affected communities. And then you also spoke about area-based work, what opportunities exist at the level of the displacement-affected communities in really operationalising evictions, monitoring, et cetera. So those are just a few questions that I'll put out, but given the fact that we have limited time, I'll just leave it at that. Jim, thank you very much, Shazan. Over to you. Thanks, Jim, I'll thank you. I think what's obvious as well from these questions is there's this subject and this area are probably deserving of a dedicated session. So I think we should maybe look to do that next year because there's so much to unpack here, but Shazan, over to you for some responses and then, sadly, we'll have to then move to the next. Yes, so very quickly because of time, Jim, on your question on advocacy, this has been very useful because as I started when, as you know, Somalia right now, we are ongoing the worst drought that we have seen in the last 40 years and we've seen massive displacement into urban centres. So at the start of the year and towards the end of last year, a lot of funding was coming in for emergency response, but HLP remains critically underfunded as much as we recognise that post evictions is a key issue in Somalia. Evelyn would tell you that we remain critically underfunded as compared to other clusters. So this has been very useful in really shedding light on some of the issues that we are having at an area level. In terms of, yes, we can fund wash infrastructures, but if you're setting them up in sites that don't have secure tenure and agencies that are not undertaking proper due diligence all in the name of we are under an emergency, then we're just wasting resources because three months, six months later, if this infrastructure is being destroyed, then what are we really doing in terms of value for money? Also in terms of raising funding for HLP, some donors such as FCDO have really prioritised HLP within their strategies and one of the things that we've seen even with the MRP which is a minimum response package that is kind of a package that has been released for drought in Somalia and is coming through three UN agencies that is UNICEF, WFP and IOM, one of the things that FCDO really stressed on was the inclusion of HLP within the response and this really helped us secure some funding for some of the work that we are undertaking in Somalia. So I would say it's been very useful and will continue to do more of and I think also Evelyn has used it in a lot of bilateral meetings in her capacity as the coordinator with donors but also with the ICCG but still more work remains on that. Then in terms of Jamal's question very, very, very quickly there are quite a number of micro level as he put it, micro level work that is taking place. So on the rental subsidy as you know we had another iteration of the pilot that we had back in 2016 under our Durable Solutions Programme back in 2019 to 2020 and we are currently revising it because the main exit strategy for a sustainable rental subsidy programme is the livelihood component. So there are some very useful lessons learnt on integration between HLP and livelihood and we are trying to see how we can scale up but that first starts with understanding the rental market especially in Mogadishu. So that's something that we are going to be prioritising next year on the basis of if some funding comes in and then in terms of Baidwar just to let you know that Baidwar passed an urban land law and one key achievement for the HLP AOR in Somalia has been in cooperation on a chapter of foster fictions in the urban land law. So just that coming from having the moratorium to actually including how to address foster fictions within the law is really a key achievement for the HLP AOR. The next step of course is now in terms of enforcement and having proper structures in place to be able to enforce the law but there are a lot of other achievements on government led eviction task forces that I think because of time maybe we can have a bilateral or I can share it through mail. Thank you. Thanks Shazan, that was great fantastic and yeah I mean please do if you're if you're willing feel free to share your email address or whatever and people can bombard you with requests for more information or not you don't have to but we should definitely I think look at a session that looks at not only the work that's being done in Somalia but where some of those similar issues are being addressed or challenges are being faced as well. Thank you and that's great thank you Shazan really appreciate you taking the time to present to us. So I'm going to move on to the next item on the agenda. It's a little update from the global HLP AOR side from myself and I'm just going to share my screen to just talk through a couple of slides if I can remember how to do that but one of the key things I was wanting to discuss and just to update you on is around the leadership of the HLP AOR we've talked about it before currently NRC are the leads of the HLP AOR we're going to be joined by UN Habitat as co-lead starting 2023 and we have Ombretta Temprer who was made the comment earlier in response to Shazan's presentation who will be the focal point from the Habitat side and I think Ombretta your comment also made well the point that we need to be looking at how we connect that sort of emergency humanitarian response with some of the longer term thinking and the role and the expertise of UN Habitat in doing that which I think is going to really add to the work we can do as a community so as part of our development of this co-leadership we've come up with a sort of a working memo that's been signed off at the sort of highest levels within all our organisations and just wanted to just talk you through that briefly because I know for some colleagues there's some questions around will this change things what does it mean to have NRC and UN Habitat co-leading and I think the overall message and you can see some of the the points there but that we will be collaborating on an equal footing we're leading together and you know the interest in the positions of the HLPOR are what come first and we're supporting you still at the national level as best we can keen to improve that we're also looking for opportunities at the global level to be advocating and working together on HLP sort of guidance tools all those kind of things as well and you know we're going to be sort of reviewing the partnership how it's working and really keen to hear from you if you have questions but I just want to just share as well some of the specific areas just so that you can see this is us showing our working I suppose but how we're going to be looking at dividing up some of the roles and responsibilities within the AOR so I mean you can see that there's an assumption that if one of us is leading the other one is actively participating but the way we're looking at the sort of continuity and the consistency around the sort of working with the humanitarian response so you know NRC will still take a sort of a lead role on that sort of coordination and humanitarian side and then you and Habitat will be leading and focusing on some of our work with the development and the kind of nexus and looking also at urban as well so we're going to keep that in some ways similar focus that NRC has now leading but we're going to bring in as well the expertise and experience from the UN Habitat side and of course working together on strategy planning communication and all of those kind of things as well so I just wanted to share that really to just let you know how we're yeah sort of how we're sort of conceiving of the partnership and just open up quickly to any questions that you might have for myself or for Ombreta as well on what it's going to mean and then yeah I'll move on to the next thing but yeah if anyone had any questions or comments you're very welcome Ombreta do you have a question? No I just want to say that that we are very pleased of supporting NRC and on this role that and congratulate really the leadership of NRC over the past years at the global level and also in many of the country operations and you know fully agree with what of course Jim presented on our common behalf and looking forward to be stronger together on that thank you and over Thanks Ombreta, thank you yeah and please anyone if you have any questions so you can either email us or you know put them in the chat or raise your hand here but we can talk about this beyond this meeting and I suppose one of the things is particularly if you have any questions around what it means for HLP coordination in the country where you're working and you know sort of opportunities there and maybe if you had any questions or just weren't sure then please do do feel free to ask so part of what we're going to be doing together you know a first stop is to answer the coming years and we're going to be looking into sort of to do a two year 2023 2024 work plan and really keen to to get your views and I'm going to hand over to Ombreta in a moment to discuss that but just before then just want to just share just as a little bit of a reminder that for the HLP OR we have these sort of strategic priorities that we've been sort of looking at so supporting the HLP coordination response and also looking at that sort of bringing more attention to HLP through donor engagement advocacy and HLP sort of across the clusters as well as trying to improve the AORs governance and resilience and just a couple of comments on those I think there's something that's I've mentioned before but it still kind of comes up is the need to really advocate for HLP to be seen as a humanitarian sort of emergency need as well as the links being made with durable solutions and nexus and longer term thinking as well. We've seen some examples where OPSHA maybe need reminding of how important it is to think of HLP in a humanitarian setting so we're going to be looking at doing some work around that and then just to sort of mention on the AOR side where we're recruiting for an information management sort of coordination sort of support particularly around the Francophone countries but also supporting globally looking for that role to be based in Dakar so yeah we're just about to publish the the sort of the job description make that live so if you or someone you know might be interested please do get in touch and we can share the details around that but yes just on the the work plan itself so some of it we're keen to get your ideas and your inputs some of the things that we we try to sort of understand what's working well what could be improved you know we're talking about tools guidance some work to support data information management for HLP are there advocacy needs are there other things events webinars that we can do what can we do with others we're working quite closely with some of the other clusters at the moment and we particularly want to support HLP coordination in countries so we're talking about better functioning sort of help desk capacity identify which of the priority operations to support looking at a more sort of systematic integration of HLP with other other clusters and then there's always questions around advocacy and training that we can do more on and we've had these sort of thematic areas that we have looked at so yeah just sharing those really to kind of prompt you and to help you think about some of the things that we have collaborated on with others these areas remain a sort of key focus for us and of course we can't all do everything but I think there are some key HLP related activities and collaborations we can do yeah I just wanted to share those things to get you thinking a little bit and just hand over now to Ombretta to talk a little bit more about the planning for next year Thank you Jim and hello again so I've just also placed it in the chat who we developed a very short survey to get your views on on how to move forward I mean get your views on what you found more valuable of the work that was done in the previous phase and help us shaping the way forward so I'm just trying to briefly take you through if you see my screen I guess yes we see the short survey thank you that's great so of course your information just to make sure we can refer back to some of the answers not on the feedback what geographical area or country are you covering and what's the language working so that we are also looking at strengthening the language the diversification as Jim was also mentioning and then I'm just taking you through this question very quickly so which of the areas of the work that we did in the past two years you found more relevant you can type some feedback also perhaps some some further detail so that we understand exactly what was valuable and for you and we can build on that then there is also question on the topics Jim just screened the key ones we focused on but you know some are likely to remain relevant but some there might be some new one that we want to introduce or put a bit more effort on now in terms of typology of activities we listed here some of the ones that we do more frequently already you know capacity building training online discussion some advisory services to countries of course coordination and partnership knowledge and advocacy but there might be other that you feel has been a gap and you would like the HLPOR coordination to introduce so please do give us your inputs on that and then there is a section that looks at what you as a member of the HLPOR or your organization are already planning to implement in the coming couple of years of course we we know that work plans evolve and you know we are not definitely able to predict under percent or even maybe 50 percent what we'll be doing in the next couple of years but we might have some pointers some of you might have already some activities or areas lined up and we would like to you know to build synergies and capitalizing on what's already been done from the member side and then maybe bring it as we just did for example for Somalia in terms of presenting to the wider group what were the learnings what were the you know findings so that others can benefit from that and also would like to know when you have already something planned if there is some support that HLPOR could be providing globally but also perhaps what kind of additional support at the country level you wouldn't find it helpful so that we can see if from the global level we can facilitate that both from you know organization and individuals who are already members but perhaps in our wider networks because we know all of us of course interact with different partners and experts in different network so we might be able to find some additional way of supporting you again you know if you will be able to bring back some of this learning to the HLPOR and what and then some guidance on the areas that you would be interested to contribute to as a person or an organization you know you can freely answer this this you know and then we will analyze it from our side so do not feel restrained by the format but just you know see how you can provide input there is also some question on geographical areas the HLPOR has been active in many countries some are not yet covered some might be needing further attention so from your perspective let us know where which one these are some feedback on what we have been doing well and what we can do better or differently in the next two years and more generally any other comment, suggestion, inputs that you would like to ask to take into consideration and this is just a quick snapshot basically to say we are looking at this aspect we would like to get your initial input so that we can then design a bit more structure work plan session early next year and seek for additional inputs and more detail description in the next meeting so if you have any question comments please feel free otherwise back to you Jim Thanks Ombretta, thank you yes and please do take a few minutes if you can to fill that in it will be really super helpful not only for us as we plan but to make sure we can be you know doing the most useful and effective work around this whole area of housing London property so yeah thank you for your attention on that that would be great and there's links in the chat and we'll send a follow-up email afterwards as well and great thank you so next what to turn to colleague Ibere López from the global shelter cluster the HLP advisor there for an update Ibere nice to see you and actually I was just thinking before we do that I just want to say to anyone who can turn on their camera and just sort of smile and wave so we can see all your wonderful faces that would be very nice even if just for a few seconds yes here we go I recognise some of these this is nice okay thank you for your indulgence of this it's good it's nice to see people thank you okay and feel free to you know back away from the being visible now if you'd like or remain so up to you Ibere over to you thank you yeah thanks Jim so nice to see everyone everyone's faces good move in asking them to turn on the camera makes it more personable doesn't it so two I think just to update from my side one is the the online training that we've been working on so we've been working on this online training platform it's on demand training on HLP for CCM and shelter practitioners it's going to be open to anyone so when it's launched I'm going to share the link with everyone and the idea is that you'll be a training based on video so there'll be video scenes and it'll be interactive and I wanted to just give you a preview of what it's going to look like so hopefully that's going to work let me try to share the screen with you and see if you can have the audio as well can you see it yes we see it an abandoned village with empty houses could be a quick solution as long as it truly is abandoned you need to investigate more there are three actions you can take further your investigation each one taking a full date what you do next is up to you yeah am I back now yes you are yeah so the idea so the training is divided five modules and four modules it's introduction so the fundamental HOP then have security of tenure returns and restitution so the case is the cases where people are returning after the conflict or after the disaster they return in and then what HOP issues come up in that phase of the emergency and the last one is HOP and inclusion which will involve an issue with women rights and HOP and the idea of us to have realistic scenarios that we encounter on the field and how we try to resolve them there will be different quests so it's almost like a game where there will be quests that you can choose and then you have consequences to your choices so anyway I'm looking forward to sharing this with everyone we did this in partnership with a private company it's looking all right and yeah I'm looking forward to getting the feedback as well because we want to have all the iterations of this type of training the other one the other update is it's just a shout out maybe Jim Kennedy is on the call I don't know but on Thursday on the 15th of December there will be a workshop of the site planning community of practice and the theme will be HOP HOP and site planning so if you are interested I think a lot of people in this call might be you know you're free to join I think Jim will share the link or I can share the link later on in the chat for you to participate and that's it from my side Thanks Abiright quick question did you say when the training is likely to be available I can't remember it yeah so we're finishing in December that's what our contract says so it's going to be delivered now it's almost finished but we're going to launch it in January so we can do a better launch people will be back from work and then yeah so we're planning to launch it early January Thanks okay yeah and if Jim's on the call and can share the link for the 15th December meeting that would be great okay great thanks Abiright thank you for that and yeah I'm sure Abiright welcome any comments reactions to that little trailer as well as when the the substantive training is released as well and so please do feel free to to share something in the chat on that one great thank you now we're going to turn to Ukraine and to we have Michael Sholodd and I think John Unrhaer as well as with us to give an update on some of the work you've been involved with there looking at HLP and how we respond to to some of the challenges there so yeah Michael, John, over to you perfect perfect John you want to go first for a couple seconds here I'll share a document if I can Jim sure I know sorry I should have said probably worth just introducing yourselves briefly as well just in case people don't know who you are right I'll take a crack at it just to maybe kind of a broad overview and then certainly get into some some detail so since we last talked about this on this cluster there's been a great deal of movement forward a lot of moving parts going on now we've had two what we're calling guidance notes produced by the effort the first one was to the Ukrainian government which was a critique of its current compensation law and how that aligns with current best practice for mass claims and transitional justice for large scale housing land property restitution and compensation recallers about 14 million people displaced from their HLP largest in the world presently so it's a it's an effort that is gaining profile in in Ukraine and among donors our second concept note was to a Canadian senator this was the senator that went forward with legislation to repurpose frozen assets from Russia held by Canada for the purpose of repurposing those assets for the reconstruction of Ukraine that senator wanted to know how such repurposing would align with compensation efforts for for the dislocated population in Ukraine we've also connected up with with IOM we just completed in Kyiv let's see week and a half ago a a a workshop with Ukrainian Government officials and GO's donors etc on the need to move forward with planning now for HLP recovery including compensation restitution use of technology best practice for mass claims transitional justice that kind of thing our next step along those lines is to reconvene a much more technical workshop in Kyiv that looks at the the the connecting of the dots the how to exactly for for mass claims moving forward so that's that's kind of one line that is a separate line that has us moving toward another conference Michael can can talk more about that he's spearheading a great deal of this he's to all of our benefit is in in Kyiv and so he moves around quite a bit in making a great deal of many valuable connections including with a couple of ambassadors one former Canadian ambassador to Ukraine another American special appointee that looks at social bonds Michael knows much more about that as well part of this effort is is to select to pilot locations in which we can test a an app in other words a very quick way for the dislocated themselves the impact of themselves to upload claims for HLP compensation particularly for damage and destroyed HLP and number of areas such as very broad brush what will what we've got going Michael can I turn it over to you for some much more sort of pointed explanations sure sure so thanks everybody thanks John you know basically I guess if I was to encapsulate what's going on you know a lot of us have thankfully to a lot of the folks in this group who've contributed to these guidance notes as we've gone along the process and we're now getting to the point where we are basically we have an opportunity to rebuild a couple two specific villages and in fact we have you know actually local and regional authority approval to do two regions around Kiev Deemer and Makarov and we're starting with two villages Andrifka and Kozaravici where we plan to you know field test so this is an opportunity to test the entire kind of HLP process that would normally say come in after the conflicts over and would operate under you know kind of a transitional justice framework and you know the opportunity in Ukraine is that you know a there's a conflict that's still going on it's in the other area of the country but there's still people that need to be rehoused and buildings and businesses and local authority buildings that need to be rebuilt schools and things like this and you know we are using this as an opportunity to pilot all of a lot of these best practices that this group has been developing over the years so as John mentioned a mass claims process you know we plan to pilot the mass claims process we plan to pilot a technology that will allow people to file their own claims without having any kind of strings attached they won't have to have established identity they won't have to necessarily identify themselves in the claims process they'll be able to do it from a mobile device or from a computer those claims will then be adjudicated assigned to mass categories and then compensation will be awarded to allow for the rebuilding of these towns focusing on things like you know sustainability environmentalism new you know kind of urban plans so that we're not just rebuilding we're renewing or building back better some of the other little bits and pieces in this is as John has said you know we are working on it kind of the soup to nuts angle on this we're working on trying to do the you know provide an illustrative example of mass claims how it could be done how it could be scaled to larger populations in fact 14 million refugees how we could basically move the money from seas Russian assets into Ukraine for the rebuilding so this would apply to any other potential HLP conflict type situation where you know this kind of John and I call it the sanctions bomb gets dropped on an aggressor and now there's a framework to move assets into a vehicle that can be used quickly to provide restitution compensation and all of that good stuff and so essentially I guess what we just wanted to call out is this is an opportunity and it's an invitation for everybody on this call who has an interest in potentially or ideas that you want to you would like to test you know it's going to take us probably about six months to rebuild these two villages or the houses and other and all of this stuff so there's lots of room for help with things like planning urban planning sustainability environmentalism new power systems new water systems you know all of this type of stuff as well as policy and guidance on best practices and this isn't just I mean it is HLP focused but there are already you know there are war crimes and human rights abuses in these villages disappearances children that have been stolen from their families people who own businesses that disappeared on the first day of the war and you know there's a there's a lot of different angles that we can test so just wanted to throw this out there what I what I can do is this is a document that we've prepared all of these links for example our live I'm happy to share it with anybody on the call you know so I'll just drop my my email in the chat and if anybody has any questions or wants to kind of potentially talk about how we can work together what we can do to provide some real world results that you may be looking for we're happy to do that so thank you very much Jim thanks John thank you both did anyone have any questions for Michael or John or comments okay well I'll yes if you do think of any please do yeah write them in the chat and also I don't know if you guys if you have if you start to have things I don't know on websites or available public leading also feel free to to share share those things as well um and yeah website should be up by the end of the week and I'll send it out okay great excellent and we can share that within the the newsletter as well for the AOR so thanks for that yeah and anyone who's got any yeah questions comments please do do drop them in the chat so feel free to raise your hand okay thank you now going to turn to Lorena Lorena Nieto who I think is with us she certainly was earlier yes there she is good and who is going to give us an update in a bit of a presentation from work with refugees from Venezuela as part of the sort of protection an R4V platform and please do introduce yourself better than that Lorena I didn't do a very comprehensive job there so please do go ahead floor is yours good morning everyone and good morning Jim for the invitation my name is Lorena Nieto I co-lead the regional protection sector for the R4V platform on behalf of UNHCR highest is also in the co-leadership however they were not able to join this conversation this platform was activated by the secretary general back in 2018 with the situation of the Venezuelans crisis across the region there are nine thematic sectors within this platform that gathers 200 organizations between UN agencies NGOs civil society organizations so what we do is basically co-lead the regional protection sector where we have about 206 organization members so what we wanted to share with you today was the process that we have done on HOP related issues of refugees and migrants from Venezuela I'm just going to move to the next slide um just to give you an idea of the situation in the region what we have so far by the end of November is a total of 7.13 refugees and migrants from Venezuela in the world out of which almost 6 million are in 17 countries in America and the Caribbean as you can see in the map most of them are in Colombia followed by Peru and then Ecuador but we also have some distribution across the different 17 countries that I have just mentioned back in the pandemic when we started the process to see the impact on HOP related issues the evictions started to happen across the region so what we did was a survey that included 1,021 households in six different countries in the region and that's when we started to see that the impact on HOP related issues was one of the key protection issues that we needed to address with the findings of the evictions survey it was basically about homelessness all the protection risks linked to forced recruitment situations linked to organized crime so we decided that we needed to understand what the issue of property was for Venezuelans in their origin in the country of origin so that's when we decided to do a survey on abandoned houses and we focused in Colombia, Peru and Ecuador the idea was to understand what the situation of tenure was in these countries and this specific survey included 615 households we wanted to share some of the findings of this process basically we found that 65% of the households surveyed said they had abandoned their homes back in Venezuela and 12% of them considered that their homes were at risk of abandonment we also asked what the tenure was in the country of origin and one of the key surprises for us was to see that most of them most of the people that we were able to survey were owners they had paid for their houses completely so we had 68.8% of them who had completely paid their houses we had 10% on the session 7% were expressed that they were continuing to pay their houses back in Venezuela we also asked them how they had obtained their houses 58% of them said it would have been through private purchases 20% had said they had inherent these houses and 13% and this is really important is that they had obtained their houses through this special subsidy housing program led by the government of Venezuela called Grand Lision Vivienda Venezuela we also wanted to understand whether they had or not documents to like to confirm their ownership 42% of them say they had titles notarized that showed they were the proprietories of these houses and 24% of them said they didn't have any documents to to show that they were the owners of these houses of course within these 24% is where we know there are like like relevant risks of land grabbing dispossession and so forth we also want to understand what the main impacts on living conditions have been of human mobility so we compared the findings in terms of what they had in country of origin where they lived in Venezuela and how they were living in host countries so one of the key issues is that most of them used to live in Venezuela in houses 70 75% and some of them lived in apartments 14% only 5% lived in rooms and only 2.5% lived in improvised shelters the comparison with the situation in host countries showed that most of them 49% were living in houses and apartments however the amount of Venezuelans that were living only in rooms in overcrowdingness situation was high 35% of them 10% of them are living in slums 42% are in improvised shelters and we also found that 12% of them are homeless it is likely that some of the ones that are right now in a homeless situation were also evicted when the pandemic situation somehow exploded in the region we also wanted to understand what had changed between these 65% of them being owners of their houses back in Venezuela and the situation they had now in host countries we found that 91% of them were paying rent 2.8% were in possession 2% had been able to pay some properties or were in the process of payment 1.4% were loaning specific households and then 1.2% were homeless as I had expressed before if you take a look at them at the distribution per country you will see that what they what they are currently doing like the higher percentages are of course linked to the situation of paying rent in host countries when we asked them the costs and the responsibles for those who have been forced to abandon their houses back in Venezuela 89% of them explained that they were forced to leave their houses due to lack of access to food and services 73% linked to the lack of possibility to generate any sort of income and then if you add what we found in terms of insecurity generalized violence threats you will see that almost 46% of them were forced to leave their houses linked to situations of generalized violence or human rights violations the understanding of these households in terms of who caused this abandonment was 49% linked to government entities 27% to common crime 14% of them to criminal organizations present in country of origin when we did the eviction survey we found that there are some specific population groups that have been more affected both by evictions but also in the abandonment of houses and this is something that it's like it's sustained in both surveys the first one is lactating women in the case of abandoned houses was 15% in the case of evictions was 20% followed by our medical condition and with access to treatment with 14% of them 13% medical condition without access to treatment and 13% people with disabilities one of the findings that we believe are really key is that when we did the evictions survey only 3% of ethnic groups were affected by evictions however when we did the survey on abandoned houses this percentage grew to to sorry I'm comparing here to 13% of them belonging to specific ethnic groups we also wanted to understand what the current situation of the abandoned dwelling was 83% of them expressed that their houses were occupied by third parties 38% said that there were some specific interests on their houses by criminal groups or public entities so the risk of this possession is there 19% of them said that their houses have been sold sold I'm sorry or negotiated by non authorized third parties 17% of them expressed that their houses have been deployed and 5% of them explained that they had some non payment of costs associated with the home they had left behind regarding who have caused the current situation of their dwellings again 49% are identified as part of government entities 27% third parties it could be neighbors family or companies 22% to common crime and 14% of them to illegal criminal organizations we also asked what they were planning to do according to the situation there is one key element and this is what has happened across the region with the pandemic the economic crisis the political crisis the institutional crisis many of the countries in the region are facing so the situation for Venezuelans who were on process of integration changed their molecule as well as the security conditions they used to have before the pandemic so we found one key issue which is also it is like in the same line of what we found with the eviction survey which is that many of them most of them want to stay where they are maybe they want to change from one city to the other but most of them want to stay so that implies that public policies and specific legal frameworks need to be adjusted to guarantee access to public policies on housing 51% of them they are said they are not planning to return to Venezuela as I said before 42% of them plan to stay where they are 25% are planning to move to a different place because they have faced threats, robbery, intimidation 24% don't know what to do and the last finding that was really important for us is that when we did evictions on survey only 7% of them were planning to go back to Venezuela however in this survey on abandoned houses that figure grew to 23% of them who are planning to return to Venezuela this finding is really important because if we are learning from the previous slide that I shared that many of the properties have been destroyed or are at risk of this possession what we will see is that if these refugees and migrants go back to Venezuela they could be facing new cycles of violence that could of course create new situations of return of displacement and human mobility so we believe that linking this to conclusions and recommendations was one of the key issues is first how to do the characterisation exercises to understand how people are most of us most of our priorities are to understand informant settings what the situation is the profiles the needs whether they are being able to access services or not we know these population groups are the ones who are most exposed to human trafficking smuggling and other sorts of risks the boat surveys showed that of course their migration condition their situation is most of them are irregular they have not had access to regularisation so they don't have any documents so the access to any alternatives on shelter or housing are most of them informal which implies that there are of course facing greater risks so we believe that having these characterisations are is really key second one we need to have adjusted public policies and legal frameworks both in host countries as well as country of origins to guarantee that HOP rights will be protected and that of course following what we have found in boat surveys that there are specific groups who are being most affected we need to guarantee that local and national authorities will have some prioritisation criteria to guarantee that those who are most exposed more at risk will be able to access specific programmes subsidies to get new houses to improve houses and of course the same situation back in country of origin we believe that Shostown presented and you have already discussed that eviction programmes of the monitoring of eviction needs to continue as well as the moratorium that was developed for the pandemic that has already ceased in many of the countries in the region there is one specific need to map abandoned houses in country of origin probably not the current situation to move forward to protection tools because it's not easy but at least being able to register the situation and what people own will be key for future processes of restitution compensation or any sort of action linked to return coordination between the protection sector and the protection cluster in Venezuela is key because we need to do the advocacy and all the design the strategic response for Venezuela that will continue in the region in host countries and are not planning to go back but also for those who are planning to go back or who are still in Venezuela and need to guarantee some level of protection on HOP community-based protection mitigation risk alternatives is one of the key issues that we have identified understanding that HOP rights is still a sensitive issue in the region and for most of the government including the host country the country of origin sorry and finally the role and the developments in terms of mediation and concrete resolution and how the public ministry the obtusement officers can be more engaged into this process to reduce risks thank you for your time I will leave it there thank you Jim over to you Thanks Lorena thanks so much for that really interesting to see that research and what it tells us about the context there and what's happening I suppose one obvious question is you know how do people access it would you be able to drop the link in the chat if possible but yeah thanks so much for that I have a question I see on the chat from Alexandra he says this is quite a fascinating study out of curiosity did your survey identify whether the displaced people is identified as Indigenous yes that's one of the key issues that we saw between Evictions and House abandoned houses in Evictions we found only 1.3% of people who had been evicted belonging to Indigenous groups however in this specific survey that number grew to 23% so we do know that there are Indigenous and African descent communities that were included or identified in this survey that had lost their houses back in Venezuela since of course the understanding of ownership for Indigenous is more linked to collective titles and collective rights this is something that we believe needs to be much more review understood and analyzed to really grasp what the situation is and see how the protection of collective rights needs of course to have a different development and a strategy that at least in the region we don't have besides what has been already developed for Colombia thanks Lorena any further questions or comments okay great well if you do think of anything please do put those in the chat thank you Lorena that was really interesting and I see you've put the link there to that analysis so yeah thank you I was happy to be with us oh Kat hello sorry yeah just a question maybe maybe Poten what are the next steps or what is the protection cluster how are you going to use the the results and the outcomes what are you going to do with it that will be great to hear thank you yeah thanks Lorena thank you Kat there are like two fronts in which we are trying to move the first one is linked to those refugees and migrants that will remain in the region what we are trying to do is the advocacy we have worked with the World Bank to meet with the different governments Colombia, Ecuador and Peru to share the findings and to do the advocacy to guarantee at least prior prioritisation criteria with the findings of the survey there are some programs that have already been designed for example in the case of Bogota which is the capital of Colombia what the government is doing the local government is doing is developing a subsidies program that will identify families who own houses and will ask them to rent these houses to Venezuelan families and if they do for a period of two years they will help them with a subsidy to guarantee that these families will be able to pay rent and not having evictions situations of course during the time of this subsidy three months to six months the government will also help them identify job, education, health other services but guarantee first that they will have a health to have their families placed so the idea for us is first to identify these practices that have taken some space across the region to promote the change of these actions and also by joining the World Bank what we are trying to do is to have the World Bank support government with loans and other things to guarantee that this will happen we understand that it's impossible to give houses to six million people in the region what we are trying to guarantee that some of them will have access and those with you will be able to do it under a specific prioritisation criteria not really whether they have documents or not or whether they know how to move across entities because is what usually happens the ones that are able are the ones who want to spend the system and that leaves behind most of the cases of those who are most exposed so that is what we are trying to do for health countries in terms of country of origin we are trying to link with the protection cluster in Venezuela to share the findings what we are proposing is to guarantee that at least next year the identification of abandoned houses will be will start what we did for example in Honduras was that we didn't have the institutional moment capacity, political will or anything to move towards protection however we understand that as long as if we let time pass by information will be lost so we need to guarantee that at least we will be able to do maybe through church to community-based organisations the identification of abandoned houses at least we will be able to have the record is what we did also in Colombia back in 2004 when we started to identify abandoned houses with community networks and then later on almost 15 years after that we had the restitution law but we were able to say we have all these registrations we have all these records just to start making the um how do you say like the um comparison between what you have on the official entity at what the community told us and it's the same thing we did in Honduras some of the records worked some of them didn't work but they also showed us some of the houses in which we had already had some illegal transactions so we were able to identify also land grabbing dispossession strategies so those are like the two fronts in which we are trying to work right now okay thanks Lorena um over to Alex and then to Jamal and then we're back uh it's okay um let Jamal go first okay so Jamal yes thank you very much for that um Alex so Lorena let me first of all congratulate yourself and your team for the exceptional work that has been done in this regard and it's quite interesting that that this topic has come up today I think that the subject of of um bridging the evidence gap from 10-year security has arisen no less than five times substantively so over the course of the past five hours for me from different from different sources and it's really interesting to see that you have raised it today as well and I think the convergence is quite telling of the importance of this particular subject matter I think it is worth noting that egress that's the expert group on on statistics for refugees IDPs and stateless persons is meeting today for reflection on progress made where bridging the evidence gap in forced displacement is concerned and I think one of the subject matters on the agenda is the disaggregation of 12 SDG indicators by forced displacement and one of those indicators happens to be indicator 1.4.2 which is on 10-year security so I think that within itself is quite telling so what I'm keen on learning is a bit more about the methodology of course we don't have the time here but we can have that bilateral of course whereby I can learn a bit more about the methodology that has been employed in this particular case because I think that there is potentially an opportunity for scaling a model here in really addressing that evidence gap around 10-year security and land governance more broadly so of course I really welcome that bilateral so we can perhaps exchange email addresses in that regard thank you very much and job well done again thanks Jamal yeah and Lorena may be a brief comment on that and also Joseph fast in the chat as well you know interesting to see these kind of surveys conducted more and wondering about the resources that was required to conduct it so maybe a brief comment on the sort of method and the resources yeah Lorena I believe that the first thing that I would say is that basically what we did was to find the resources to hire someone to help us analyze the findings that's where we put money and it was basically 15 000 for the evictions process than 30 000 for the abandoned houses process the rest the data collection was done basically thank you to thanks to Angel's we had the support of safe children, NRC, DRC who through their teams in the different countries were able to share with us the the colleagues they had for collection data so what we did is we developed the survey we prepared we trained all the the interviewers so what we used was the people they had in call centers the colleagues they had going to shelters to make assistance deliverance and we also trained people they had in their own offices providing services so what we did is that we negotiated like a window of time two weeks three weeks we trained all of them we shared the surveys and they just gathered the information so if without the help of the NVOs we wouldn't be able to do this because we were not paying anyone any of the interviewers because we didn't have the money so it was just advocacy and I believe that NVOs found that the findings of the reports were useful for them for strategic purposes to develop adjuster programs and of course because they were seeing that these specific issues were relevant for what they were finding in the field so if I add up the 30,000 and the 15,000 we are talking about 45,000 the rest was more about communication pieces but it's a whole different issue because for the technical purposes of both studies we just used 45,000 for the consultant that's basically what we did in terms of resources and in terms of methodology Jamal yes just a quick quick reference to when we started to develop the survey, the questionnaire for the abandoned houses what we did was to like a deep analysis of how the Venezuelan property law was built to understand the categories how tenure was developed in Venezuela how it had changed with this specific government and then we did a document comparing different socialist regimes across the globe to understand how property was placed there and how the situation on the owner tree was interpreted we also compared restitution processes between these specific sort of regimes to guarantee that we were approaching the questions when we asked the Venezuelans whether they own a house or not they were understanding specifically what the concept was in the development of the Venezuelan law so just in terms of a concept and how we approach to guarantee that we were not talking about different things and we will have like a these sort of analysis that's basically what we did but we can continue of course on a bilateral Shannon Jamal thank you Thanks Lorena Alex, do you want to come in briefly? Yes, sorry about that before my computer was about to die so it's easier to pass the word to somebody else Lorena, this is such a really fascinating study and what you were talking about about the pilot project with the local municipalities going to provide subsidies to property owners to rent their units is also quite amazing that pilot project what's the scale that it's being planned at right now and sort of what's the horizon for implementing it What the mayor like the local authority told us is that it's going to do this pilot with 500 households initially and this is what the World Bank is supporting as a pilot at the same time the World Bank is giving a loan to the housing ministry at the national level with the program that it's called how do you say Semilleros like an owner's bank so what they are trying to do is to have at the local level this pilot on subsidies for rent and at the national level they are going to prioritise 250 families to see whether they can help them to become property owners so I guess what they are trying to do is to compare the renting situation and then the access to property and see in the comparison between the families what is more useful and what can be placed better in local and national public policies so this is what they are going to implement next year right now they are in the designing phase but the project has been approved by the World Bank for these 500 at the local and 250 at the national I guess we will have initial findings of these maybe one year from now and see whether it works or not that's extraordinary I'd love to follow up with you bit more on that but yeah thank you so much thanks thanks everyone thank you Lorena thanks Alex for that as well okay so firstly thanks for staying with us a few minutes over it's been super interesting I want to just open up just for a couple of minutes if anyone would like to give an update to the meeting we're recording so we can place this on the GPC the protection clusters youtube channel and share links so if you would like to update and have that recorded for posterity or if you have resources to share as well please let me know but yeah let's if anyone would like to share an update with the group on what they're doing please do yes Joseph please come in hi just very brief so in USA we're looking at having HLP forum humanitarian HLP forum there are several on this call I can see who have been involved in prior discussions if anyone here is interested just let us know this is obviously not in competition with this group it's just a discussion trying to bring together actors primarily based in United States interested in housing and property in humanitarian states humanitarian settings so if anyone's interested give me a call I think many other people here I can see Alex I can see Lee I can see so it's let us know we're just trying to form an informal group and maybe some kind of forum early next year thanks thanks Joseph and it's a good way to get involved with a group where the meeting times will be guaranteed to be sociable and good and not either too early or too late yeah anyone else wants to share a brief brief update before we finish okay well in that case it leaves me to say thank you so much for all our presenters fantastic to hear from from Shazan from Somalia from Ibirre and Ombreta and also from John and Michael and Lorena and all of you for your questions and comments very much appreciated and so thank you for that we'll be sharing the minutes and presentations where they're available and a recording of this in the coming days and yeah also the links that have been posted in the chats I'll share as well with you as well so we'll meet again next year and until then wish you very very good end of year and to look forward to yeah keeping in touch next year and if anyone would like to present on their work please do let me know and we will be able to yeah factor that in and work out when to do that but yes thanks so much for being with us and see you soon cheers bye bye thanks everybody Merry Christmas all right thanks Jim thanks colleagues all the best yeah thank you very much Jim for that one it's a wonderful time you're welcome thank you thanks everybody thank you Jim this is really good nice to have you with us thank you