 We're gonna get started here in a minute or so we have a Small but passionate group here kind of like the community working group itself So, yeah, let's just go ahead and get started Hi there I'm George to Matt. I'm the the chair of the community working group. We've got Rachel Lawson Adam Hill Jordana Fung here who are some of the other members of the community working group in addition the group also includes Emma Cariannis and Mike and Nello neither of whom are here in Vienna, so And so so we're kind of the core group in addition We also have a number of kind of we call subject matter experts or SMEs who We consult with on as needed basis for additional advice on issues that might require Specialized knowledge right legal issues mental health issues regional culture stuff like that So what we're gonna do here is is basically go through a few slides kind of give a little summary of You know what the community working group is what it isn't what we do what we don't do some of what we have done in the last year some and some of the things we want to do and Then most of this I'm really hoping can just kind of be a conversation You know and ask questions just talk anything whatever whatever we want to do so What we do We have we have several different major things that we do one is that we help resolve conflict between members of the Drupal community You know this this can take a wide variety of forms will Forms of conflict will talk about some of the kinds of issues that we deal with on a Upcoming slide, but the the basic central ideas that you know, we're chartered to uphold the Drupal Code of Conduct and We are we're here to do this. We're all volunteers. We don't have any Funding we don't have any staff or any kind of other outside resources We are also not part of the Drupal Association We're an independent part of Drupal's governance and our charter actually comes directly from Dries, so ultimately the members of the group can serve at his pleasure and Say as a very practical reality Dries is fairly hands-off with us You know he trusts our judgment and you know when we want to add new people to the group He accepts our recommendation, but he's the one who you know gives us the thumbs up so The other the other part of what we do in addition to the the kind of conflict resolution mediation side of things is promoting the health of the community and So again because we are a volunteer group we have a fairly limited capacity to be able to do this But one thing that's really special that we do every year is the Aaron Windborn Award for Those of you who don't know Aaron Windborn was a longtime Drupal contributor yeah, he Lost his battle with ALS a few years ago and But it was just really someone who who in many ways kind of really exemplified a lot of what makes The Drupal contributor community such a wonderful place and so Every year for the last three years. We've given out an award at Drupal con North America In his memory the first year it went to now the bottom right it went to Kathy tees and then in Drupal con New Orleans it went to gobbler high chi and then This past year Earlier this year in Baltimore. We gave it to Nikki Stevens So that's something really special we do and we collect nominations from the community at large And that's actually there's there's kind of a secret double Objective there, which is to find out who our people in our community All around the world who are dealing doing wonderful things within the community and so and those are folks who You know, we may be able to reach out to or look at as people who might be able to become either, you know future Community spotlight people or even people who might join the community working group in the future so The other thing that we we work on is providing Conflict resolution resources and guidance So we have a few few different kind of in progress things We've been working on lately. We have some other resources on our on our website at Drupal.org and And in general we're really all about doing whatever we can to help improve the overall health of the community so In terms of what we're not So so this is a quote That we one of us pretty much says pretty much Every one of our means we're not the Drupal police and so This this comes up and I and I think this is You know a challenge because you know one of our responsibilities is to uphold the Drupal Code of Conduct and so I think Oftentimes, you know people may see us as enforcers Or you know as particularly, you know, if they're if we receive a report That you know, there's been a conflict and we reach out to the people involved in that conflict sometimes there's There's there's some resistance to that and but really You know fundamentally what we are are not about is being a police force. We're not about punishing people. We are all about Providing positive mediation and conflict resolution, right? So Yes, so like I said, you know, we're not here to decide who's right and who's wrong It's it's to really provide that space For conflicts to be resolved among community members in a calm measured and respectful way So, you know, we don't proactively investigate Community members again, that's not Part of what we do or are even really able to do Or exactly, you know, and you know, essentially, you know, when we are working on issues They're ones that, you know, people have brought to us for for whatever reason We cannot contact law enforcement on your behalf. That is actually specifically prohibited by Our charter so, you know, we can say hey if there is a serious situation where it looks like That might be a good idea. We can certainly make that recommendation but we're not we're not allowed to to do that ourselves and The other thing that's in our charter is we don't respond to requests to take specific punitive actions So if somebody reaches out to him says hey, I think so-and-so is a jerk and should be banned Then yeah that we're not gonna do that We might come back and say well, can you give us more information? You know about why you think so-and-so is a jerk and what happened and explore that a little bit more, but We're not going to Take any any, you know actions just because someone asked us to So one of the things We've been really trying to do over the last year or so is improve the transparency and visibility of the working group You know again, this is this is a thing because You know the work that we do Center around you know particularly centered around conflict resolution is work where sort of discretion and confidentiality is very important And and again, I think to to some folks that can sometimes feel like well, you know They're working in secret behind closed doors. What is that all about? So we have Tried to do whatever we can without violating that confidentiality To to really help people understand what we're doing. So back in March of 2016 We started publishing our public Minutes public versions of our meeting minutes every week in Google Docs and so Those go up every week after within a day or two of when our meeting is done and They're you know and they're Worded in a way that you know folks can kind of understand what sorts of things we've been dealing with even if they don't know Precisely the names of who's involved Another thing we did last summer We were getting a lot of reports and issues centered around a Lot of contributor burnout particularly during the Drupal aid cycle So we actually did a contributor survey and conducted a few interviews back in the summer of 2016 really kind of talking to To people to really understand what some of the the core issues were with that frustration and burnout and so and that's helped inform Some of our our initiatives, which we'll talk about in a little bit We started Drupal Community Twitter account in the fall of 2016. We don't tweet from it very often That's where we make announcements It's an outgoing thing only you can't file reports via Twitter We ask that you do that via the incident report form on Drupal at org Obviously we're doing the session right here today we also did a session at Drupal con Dublin where we talked a lot about that Contributor burnout, but as well as some other issues We had a couple issues that received some kind of public attention that we had to Issue kind of public statements about there was a harassment incident at Drupal con New Orleans where someone was asked to leave the event and So we we had to provide some detail about that There was an incident in at Drupal Camp Munich last year that had gotten some attention on social media and so You know we we had to go and we talked with with all the various parties involved and and kind of published sort of our our perspective on on that situation and then of course obviously there were some high profile community issues this spring and so we we issued a couple of statements to kind of Clarifying our involvement and and some of the issues You know that that we were asked to to weigh in on with that Following that there were there were the the Drupal association brought in Whitney Hess to mediate some community conversations at Drupal con Baltimore and then later Online and those resulted in a series of kind of a summary from from Whitney And some questions and concerns that people had raised Particularly specifically around the community working groups. We posted those in our public issue queue And posted some responses to that feedback. I think almost all of those issues are still open We're kind of leaving them open for a while But on a few of them there are kinds of things that you know, we can't really take action on right now But we really just want to get folks thoughts on those And then the final thing we this is actually coming soon We've actually streamlined our incident report form to make it A little far less intimidating we we realized that our form was very kind of long and complicated and that was maybe Making it less likely for people to report Incidents and so we've streamlined that and I think I just need to go through and make the spelling less British and publish it online so That was that was Emma who helped with that and so we do have three Brits in the group. So We're We're always going back and forth on spelling So this is a list of the incident reports that we have received in 20s calendar year 2017 so far And this is current up through actually earlier today when we received an incident so This gives you a kind of a sense of some of the issues that we deal with A lot of the disputes we deal with are basically people having arguments and conflict in the issue queues We had a fair number of reports this year relating to people being harassed on Twitter Drupal community people being harassed By folks who either were other Drupal community people who were who were Hiding behind anonymous accounts to to harass Drupal community people We received three reports again related to that community situation this spring Three reports that were not related to Drupal so So on many Drupal websites the default configuration is you have that made with Drupal that appears in the footer So if someone is using a Drupal website to harass someone else even if that has nothing to do with the community The person who objects to that website Will see that made with Drupal at the bottom and we'll click on it and we'll go through to Drupal org Where they will find the incident report form so we've received issues for example where I think there was an issue with a Taxi company and and they must have been running a Drupal website Because we received a customer service complaint about this taxi company We have received reports with people talking about some pretty intense like issues with tin hats and Aliens and all sorts of things so that's just kind of part of what we get But it's a fairly small percentage of the overall total so but it does kind of mix things up a little bit for us and Sure, yeah We still have to kind of Take them we have to kind of explain that that's not really what we do But we still have to take it serious. Yes that happens because that's that person's impression of Drupal Exactly, you can't just go ha ha aliens. Sorry go away. It's it's at least more. There's more to it than that Yeah, I apologize. I should have said so we actually do have a template Response for those kinds of issues where we're like, you know, I'm really sorry. This sounds like a terrible situation You know, I really wish we could do something for you, but you have to understand where we're just We're we're a open-source project. We can't help you with your problem We have no way of helping you with your problem, you know, so please contact the appropriate authorities So we do get a few of those a year We had a specific interpersonal dispute between two community members that We received a couple of reports about that was one where we we actually did involve one of our our subject matter experts Drupal.org forum post We had one that that again, this was the one that came in today. There was a harassment incident that occurred actually here in Vienna a Drupal con attendee was was subjected to some harassment not within the event and not by anyone relating to Drupal but out and about in Vienna they they were harassed by someone and so and So so those kinds of things are are helpful for us to have on the record You know, even though they may not be specifically actionable, but it is good for us to know and and that's also feedback We can pass on To the Drupal Association others that you know this happened at this event Yeah, we had an issue so see these are kind of sort of one-off things so I'll blaze through them fairly quick We had issues relating to something someone had said in their user profile on Drupal.org And we had one relating to some Unproductive Drupal con session feedback and Then we had yeah one relating to multiple incidents involving a community member This was part of kind of a community member who has had a number of things and was just kind of like a letting us know About some incidents that occurred There this is again as one we get one or two of these a year where there will be a community dispute over a domain name a Drupal domain name. This is very often related to two competing groups or organizations within a country or region who want to have the official Drupal domain for That country a reason a region But the trademark is actually controlled by Dries directly. So we refer those straight to Dries. We Go back to the report and we say this is this is the Where you can refer those issues? In addition to all these these are just the ones that came in through our incident report form We have also received a fair number of reports via directly via email primarily those related to harassment that various community members had been subjected to on Twitter reddit other sites social media so Some of the other things we've done to help a lot of what we do is actually providing feedback and advice So again when we have some high-profile community issues You know, we will actually work with the various parties involved to to help, you know provide whatever advice we can we are You know, we really see ourselves as kind of this Neutral party that's here to provide advice to anyone who asks We have provided some advice a Drupal association at their request on some proposed changes to Drupal.org case studies Contribution credits and community spotlights. This was kind of in the vein of hey We're thinking about making these changes to Drupal.org Do you as you know a kind of community representative see have any questions or concerns about that and we provide that feedback? You know again similarly advice and feedback relating to Drupal con and other community events One of the really cool things we've done this year, and I'm really excited about this is we've Actually had a couple of really wonderful conversations with our counterparts essentially in other open source projects So we've we've spoken with folks from Kubernetes and Mozilla people who are responsible for Either forming or enforcing or upholding the code of conduct in their communities And really this is kind of a trading tips and best practices We're actually one of the communities that's been doing this the longest So what we see is that other communities really love to hear about, you know, what we're doing You know pitfalls to avoid things like that One of the big things we're working on this week There was a we published a blog post on Monday, and we were in the Community summit working with community members to develop a framework for evolving community governance Again in our charter. We're actually forbidden in our charter from making any decisions involving community governance but Because there is no no organization that or group that's actually responsible for community governance We're working to help develop that framework and to make sure it's as community-driven as possible And then finally on this we've been a code of conduct contacts for Drupal cons in Baltimore in Vienna So here in Vienna Rachel and Adam our code of conduct Contact so if one of them disappears from the stage very quickly, you'll know that something is probably up So we sat down this summer and and you know we We've been through a lot this year dealing with a lot of things and There was a certain point where things had had we were able to take a break and say okay This is a really good opportunity for us to kind of sit down and think about everything that's happened over the last you know six to nine months or so and Really for ourselves say what what have we learned? And you know how how could we do what we do better? so we had a few few of these and we're still actually kind of working on that because Adam was actually not initially part of that and I think has some additional feedback to add Based on his experience, but one of the things we know we need to do is we need to make sure that When we're good in a mediation session that we're doing a really good job of ensuring that both parties who are involved Have really good expectations for what that process is and again I think this goes to understanding that we are here to mediate not to judge and so when parties are in a mediation process Where they shouldn't feel like they need to prove their case to us But what we're really looking for them is to understand their perspective so that we can Find some common ground. Hopefully find a solution And we need to do a better job of making sure that That that folks understand that which is hard when you know There's a situation and it's intense and emotional and people feel like they've been wronged But we need to be able to kind of Help them to step back a little bit and work things through So that it goes in the same point. It's just making sure that we're communicating more frequently and regularly Sometimes it's hard because you know, we'll talk to one party and then it may take a while as we're working with the other party and in the meantime the first person doesn't know what's going on and You know, so we need to maybe do a better job of saying hey, you know I know it's been a while it's been a week since we last talked We're still working with so-and-so, you know, no status update, you know, well, we'll check back in in a week that sort of thing Again, you know kind of the same point is as better documenting and communicating our mediation process We do have our conflict resolution process documented on Drupal.org It's fairly high level. It's very outline But I think we can probably do a little bit better job of providing more detail in context So that folks who are involved in the process can understand what it's about and others who aren't but you know who want to know Can understand as well Our escalation process we need to improve and better document that again when we run into issues That are not covered by the scope of our charter or that may involve issues outside of it And we may need to escalate it to someone else because they might be impacted by this issue we need to Just better document how we do that And the final point of course is making sure that everyone in the community understands Who we are what we're about and so again, that's part of what we're doing here today Okay Back in February. We actually sat down and did some strategic planning And to to really kind of focus on some some kind of bigger picture things we wanted to do I think We probably need to come back and revisit some of these things But in general, I think these in a broad sense these points still really hold Our charter as written back in 2012 is really focused around code of conduct Enforcement upholding the code of conduct and around conflict resolution The reality is that that is one part of what we do But it's not the only thing that we do that we do or that we want to do and we would really like it We can make some changes to our to our charter to better reflect The work that we do around Supporting community health Which means that we will have fewer code of conduct issues and conflicts to resolve so it's really You know for us, right? So we have less work to do I'm being facetious So expand the one thing we actually did is expanding our membership and involving more members of the community So Rachel and Jordana were added into the group in May. So they are the neo fights here and We also the some are vetted the subject matter experts So we actually I think are at a pretty good point with with the number of folks that we have in terms of the volume of issues That we have to deal with Though of course it is one of those things because you know, we do have you know folks You know last, you know, this is kind of grueling emotional things And it's something you really only want to do for a certain amount of time before you moving on And so we always want to be able to get fresh blood into the group and Then you know really again focusing we identified coming out of that survey last year Around Contributor burnout and frustration that there were two really big initiatives that we felt would make a dramatic impact Improving the health of our community. One of those is building a mentorship ladder And this is not just about getting people in on the ground level to you learn Drupal But really making sure that there are people who are who can work with someone on a High potential contributor Throughout the process. So, you know, so after you get past we're actually really we're actually fairly good at onboarding people Where we really struggle is when we get, you know, kind of up that that difficulty curve and getting people up to that point where they can Be Drupal experts or be Drupal masters and feel comfortable and all that and that really involves Having a really good and more formalized mentorship program right now. The reality is it ends up being informal So when you go and you talk to anyone who's like considered like a Drupal guru You talk to them long enough and and sure enough they'll say I wouldn't be here if so-and-so hadn't given me so much time Right and that work is itself, you know Unrecognized and unsupported and so we need to find better ways of doing that The other thing that we need to work on is community leadership initiatives Adam and I are both passionate about this from kind of different directions I'm I'm very interested in in leadership training which is really helping people who are who are Potential leaders in the community or people who are put into leadership positions in the community receive a training to understand Some kind of basic leadership skills Again so they don't get overwhelmed so they don't burn out so they really can help empower and enable others So I think is that my final slide it was So that's who we are What we've what we've been doing and what we want to do and now is the fun discussion portion of our of our presentation, so You guys have the mic there. I'm gonna move over here and There's a There is a mic So Okay, well we can more than one of us can answer the question because I think we have a few like different perspectives on this and so Yes, I will repeat the question. So so the question was about the fact that right now our chartered authority derives from Dries and you know, so You said we were appointed by Dries in reality I think I'm the only member of the group who Dries originally appointed The the rest of us have kind of been Nominated by the group as a whole since then and you know, we went to Dries and said hey Dries We'd like to add so-and-so You know to the group and Dries has said Sounds good, right? But you know if Dries didn't like our choice or if he didn't like what we were doing He could always, you know, yeah get rid of us. So So that's a very valid question So right now and I've been I've been kind of digging back into the history of of how we were created and chartered as a group and I think the idea that it was Dries at the head of the community working group and Came out of the idea that the group was going to be around Solving conflict in the issue queues and so from that perspective It was seen as an extension of his authority as project and technical lead, right? and And as I actually went back through some of the through the some of the threads at the time I actually see Dries himself saying well I don't know if I should really be the the one who's responsible for this But if there's no one else to do it sure, right? and So one of the things we we have definitely talked about is As part of and we see this as part of the larger overall community governance process again via our charter We can't change our own charter. So That's something that's got to be figured out as part of a bigger thing There are a number of possibilities You know we could our charter could be moved under the Drupal Association Which would mean that we would have potentially some you know legal Resources That we would also potentially maybe even have the ability to use staff resources Which would be really nice for some of the things that we want to do It raises some other questions as well in terms of you know checks and balances and All of that so that would be something we would want to explore another idea You know we've talked about is It would be awesome if there was kind of like a united nations of different open source projects and you know and the Community working groups or their equivalents in each project kind of Was able to have Issues reviewed by that body if it was an issue that like went beyond a single community or an issue that needed to be reviewed by Or escalated up for one reason or another that That would be cool, but is fairly ambitious You know there's also the possibility again because we have this kind of dual mandate that we could You know split those responsibilities the community health side versus the conflict resolution side and each of those could sit under a Different authority, but I'd love to hear what other folks here have to say So we're sorry We're at the moment as part of the governance changes. This is all up for review anyway, and I think what's really Important for the CWG is that we've got People in the community who are coming up and helping with the ideas and and what have you to take this kind of thing forward because I Think it's fair to say that even Dries doesn't really want to be the escalation point I think he said that pretty publicly so that that's that's a Structure that needs to be reviewed and is currently being reviewed, but if people have ideas and if And if it's something that you're passionate about Exactly, we are currently looking for people to help take that government in the community to take that governance Work forward, so yeah But we're not here to have the answers on that let's put it that way it's it's it's it's up there for review, but sure So you mean as a point of escalation or you mean as a because I think Yeah, I mean I think there's a perception a perception and yeah There's a perception there's a perception in reality Which I think is what George was trying to say before like the concept of people being vetted by Dries honestly as far as I'm concerned I mean I only spoke to Dries as part of the CWG Three years after joining do you know me and so it's not No, honestly, he doesn't We everyone inside of the group was nominated by other people inside the group none of the people apart from George We're nominated by trees none. So that again, it's a perception reality. It's in the charter But it's not really exactly how it works. It's about and the people on the group are nominated based around What people can expect they can do in a mediation scenario not based around Representing the community. So I think it's a it's a very I'm not against the idea of there being more community involvement In terms of who's there at all But I think we have to be careful to remember this is not a representative role. I don't feel like I'm representing the community I think I'm giving my time with conflict Conflict mediation and resolution Experience and history in other circles giving my time to bring that to the Drupal community So it's not a representative thing. It's a it's a believe me. It's a it's a lot of Emotional energy time and and it and it's yeah It's it's not certainly not what I would see as a representational position Yeah Like he said before This is pretty hands-off with with what we do But also I think maybe what you're hesitant about is because we've had more talks about governance and you've heard some of that stuff from us But we are not Part of taking those actions. We just kind of want to guide it and have the community do that So we just want to say like the representatives are those that we want you guys to choose for the governance issues We're just there for community health and conflict resolution and that kind of stuff So Yeah, and I echoing What what both of you have said? I mean I I think there should be you know personally I think there should be some sort of Body in Drupal's governance that is you know directly representative of People in the community, but I feel that the community working group based on the work that we do Requires a Really specialized set of skills and a certain kind of personality That is really Not conducive to you know electing someone, you know in a From from the public because Yeah, because you know every single person who's here and every single person who's not here and every single person Who has been on the group in the past right Donna Benjamin Angie Byron all of these people Rowell all of these people who have been on the group in the past They're all people who are very thoughtful who are very deliberate who are Pretty good at separating their emotions from Really thinking about what's best for the situation at hand and those are Those are those are very specialized skills and and you know and those are the kinds of people who need to be on this group and You know so so whatever mechanism is used to select members of the group It needs to be able to support that Anyone else? Yes I have a question and understanding the the the competence for decisions And I understood that you are not for juristical issues. You are you try to mediate conflicts What happens if you cannot solve the conflict? Do you have to escalate the decision to a higher instance? Triple association or reason or are you in the position to to organize consequences? by yourself So yeah, as we said in our charter the point of escalation is trees I think there's I'm not going to say exactly but it's less than one hand the number of times anything's gone the trees And I think a lot less than one hand. Let's say I don't think in the most part that that the issues that we're dealing with are decision-making issues we're dealing with Creating a space where those people involved in those issues can work them out Either between themselves or with the support that we can provide and the spaces we can provide so in the vast majority There is no decision-making. We have on occasion had situations and bear in mind I think we're always learning on this and we have a charter which Always needs adapting for the way the community expands like any other aspect of governance or Any other aspect of the community technical as well, but the the so the We've had situations where for example We've been working with the Drupal Association for things that will happen in a Drupal con Drupal con that the people who are responsible for Drupal Con the association so they would have to make a decision and the CWG are there much more in the role of The mediation side of it the conversation side of it and The conflicts can range from being between one person another person to being pretty much one person to the entire community Because it could be someone is doing something that impacts people in that level and that's where it becomes very very difficult And I think sometimes the the the decisions are clear and and other times the decisions take a lot of time to really work them out So there is no the point of escalation by our charter is trees But we we very rarely get to that point and it's usually because we've been able to ensure that the there is no need for a point of escalation Got what I was gonna say now No, yeah, I mean we are working I think probably I said earlier today one of the things that we probably do With regard to conflict resolution Largely is slow things down so what Issues and tools that we have things like Twitter and we use Twitter and the issue queue Set up website Often you can find a disagreement a conflict happening and people are Firing emails back and forth or issue Comments back and forth very quickly. I'm probably one of the most things we that we yeah closing One of the probably the most useful things we do is slow them down and give the people time to reflect If that gives the chance to go. Oh, yeah, this is a bit silly more often than not that's that's what we do so Making decisions That's not really what it's about. You know, we don't wield the band hammer for one of a better description It's not like that Normally just chatting with people and giving them the opportunity to voice their feelings and Perspective without necessarily Right in somebody's face So it's just out as well. I think one of the things that's cropped up a lot recently is is helping people to understand Impact over intention so helping one person to understand that the person did not intend to hurt Or cause a problem and on the other side Help the other person understand that they've had an impact whether they like it or not, you know, and it's kind of It's getting that balance from from to and in the vast majority of cases when you get people to understand that They will spend some time to let's say back down from their position or understand the other person's experience and therefore things move on in which trying to cover all of the issues in Sound bites is is is impossible, but just if that helps Okay You've reminded me actually we talk about backing down one of the hardest things to do as a human is to back down from a position you've taken it takes time it takes effort and Maybe sometimes if we're helping people to do that in a way that makes them feel comfortable I'm happy with that. Yeah, it's a hard thing to do. I know I've struggled with it myself before So I want to talk a little bit about the idea of the band hammer so No, no, it's a concept. It's a it's a concept. It's a concept that exists though, right and And and so the idea is like, oh, you know, if you're naughty and you break the code of conduct the CWG can ban you and So the reality is that one of the reasons the CWG was created was Before we had a code of conduct before we had a community working group People were getting banned all the time and You know, it was it was you know, so-and-so goes off in IRC or goes off on the issue queue And then you know, there would be this kind of amorphous group of people who had the ability to impose permanent or temporary bands from IRC Drupal org and they'd just be like sorry, you're getting out of line boom banned for you and and and that Back when we were a really tiny community and everyone kind of knew each other that that worked okay but obviously it did not scale as we became a much larger community and so By the time it was about five years ago when when when the Community working group was created trees trees had a series of meetings with a bunch of people I wasn't there was it was out in Portland and they Worked out a lot of the existing governance structures that we have today and And that was really one of the ideas to have this group of people who could you know Who could be there in those kinds of situations and find another path that was You know more sustainable for the community as a whole so Again, I think the number of times we have and I'm talking about like over our entire history, right? as a group the number of times that someone has been banned from Drupal.org or Drupal con again is is probably like less than yeah that one hand and so We can't I mean so we can recommend so the way it works is if there's a situation where it's really clear cut Where someone has gone way over the line? And so I'll use the example of a harassment incident in In New Orleans as the example somebody just very much across the line and So they were they were removed from that Drupal con by by DA staff with our assistance and We were we were we were looped in into everything that was going on and then we began the process of trying to work with that individual to You know really try to understand what was going on why they did this and everything and They refused to engage with us right so we've reached out several times were like hey You know we really want to talk we really want to hear your perspective on this right which is pretty hard considering with what they did and And and and and and they wouldn't engage so you know so we were at a point where you know We had to decide what the appropriate next steps were right and and we really When we think about those sort of things that we think about in terms of natural consequences, right? that it's not about punishing someone or imposing some kind of a punitive thing, but it's like you behaved inappropriately in this space and You're not willing to Work to make that right so your access to that space is Going to be taken away right the same thing you might do with like a young child, right? it's like and So So what we decided in that case was that based on what had happened it was not appropriate For that person to to be allowed back at Drupal con You know for the time being but we always leave you know We always we always leave that that that path to come back, right? And so if and when that person does choose to engage with us And we know that people grow and change over time and everything and they were able to Express a real understanding of what occurred and a and a desire and willingness to make it right, you know They're not banned forever you know Unless they choose to be right and so but in that case, you know again We made a recommendation to the Drupal Association, which is legally and fiscally responsible for Drupal con To say hey this person shouldn't be you know shouldn't shouldn't be allowed back at Drupal con and You know and again, they they took that advice. I mean they didn't have to they could have they could have said no, you know You know we choose not to follow your advice, but So really our our authority is is that we can make recommendations to the people who are Responsible for you know the individual spaces. So another example is if there's an incident on Drupal slack Drupal slack is there's nobody who's currently responsible for Drupal slack except for the volunteer admins Who who are running it? So if there's but the code of conduct does apply? You agree to the code of conduct when you join Drupal slack and if somebody and if there is an issue that involves us and You know and and we work it through and and come to a decision. We basically have to work that out with with those admins So so yeah, I mean It's not like our word is law We can just make some really strong recommendations There's the old way the band hammer is easy You know that's that that would it's not something we want to do we want to do something You know that that's far more constructive, but I'll be honest with you. I I've taken on simple issues that have come in and the in the in the kind of Reporting queue thinking. Oh, well, I'll be okay. That's no big deal and it it's taken hours of my life You know the things that we did The things that we do in the process as we go through To do that and to do it in the proper way is hard It's hard work and we do it because we think it's the right thing So the question was should we rename the group to yeah Yeah, we can't make changes to our own charter, but yeah, I think I mean community to be fair community working It's like anything. I mean like we all Well, we all like a lot of people who have been looking at the governance recently Know a lot of this stuff comes from legacy, right? It's it's stuff. That's five plus years old And Drupal's come a long way in those five plus years So so I think there's there's a lot of things like that could be reviewed and I think Again, I think that's the kind of thing that should be coming up in the governance Review anyway the governance process whatever that that turns out to be but But yeah, I I don't think community working group really says much about what we do at all and I would personally I would agree I would look at something more like the community Community health group, but that sounds a little bit too like insurance But yeah something something along those lines and in that that's really what we I think Just as Rachel was saying or underlying it for all of us is about the health of the community the positivity in the community and because The stuff in that our previous that I wasn't there for but in Dublin it's it's worth If you get a chance to have a look It it's it's statistics, but it's interesting statistics to see How the various things like governance, but also like what the CWG does relates to things like burnout of developers, you know It's so it really is about community health and while we do conflict resolution as a kind of day-to-day activity The impact of that is something way way more and I think I would yeah I mean in terms of an idea. I'm back that one thoroughly, but we can't do it ourselves. So