 fabulous conversation, civil discourse in divided communities, and so we are going to jump right into this. In your book, I love it, I'm just saying, I think this is going to be a really cool way to start. For many of us, as Jared and I were saying, the new fiscal year. So Milan, tell us a little bit about your company and what it is you do and what drove you to write this book. Sure. So one of my companies that you see up there called The Doe is this publication I founded where we publish stories, first person perspectives from people from all walks of life, anonymously. And we do that because there's a belief that I have, which is that a lot of the times in the media cycle, we're not actually listening to what someone is saying or the questions that they're asking. We're more so just paying attention to who is saying it. And that was why we decided to strip away the name and have people focus on the different perspectives and trying to understand people and hear their story and to go beyond just a title and really try to create civil discourse. And so that was the idea that through meaningful storytelling, through sharing perspectives that we otherwise wouldn't hear from, we would be jarred just enough to have a really interesting conversation. And so with these conversations, which is not always easy, we have different things, you were the brainchild then behind this book, I'm just saying, which is a fabulous line because we've always been, you know, who hasn't been in an argument where you say, I'm just saying it. Yes. And it's talk to us about your book. Yeah. So I mean that title and I'm just saying that phrase that we throw around is usually like a passive way of trying to make our point. And so much of what this book is about is that a lot of conversations end up resulting in division or anger or frustration because we're trying to prove a point and most conversations are not about proving points. Most conversations should be about relationship building, we're trying to find common ground with the person you're talking to. And if it's whether it's at the political level, you know, in government or it's in your home and with a spouse or a child or, you know, you want to be having conversations that are productive and that are solution oriented, not that are divisive and about being right. I love this so much, Milan. And I was very fortunate to see Stacey Abrams do a presentation and, you know, just a wicked, smart political, you know, Georgia base, which is my home state. I was born in Georgia. But she came to Arizona and did a presentation. And not only was the auditorium packed, but like we were all holding on to every word she said, and it was really just that like, look for the commonalities, like look where you can build relationships. And, you know, so today, I think we're on episode 830 for the non-profit show. But during this time, there's been a lot, a lot of disruption, right? A lot of, as we say, pandemics, including the social justice pandemic. So hearing you, you know, talk about this is just fascinating. And I have to ask, like, is the state of civil discourse, like being in a poor state of civil discourse, is that new? Because I have my own, I have my own opinion on this. I'm so curious to hear your opinion. My take on it is that it's not new to maybe this decade, but that it has, well, maybe earlier this decade, it's from the onset of, I believe, social media and like what that has done to our ability to be great communicators. And what it has done is weaken our ability to be great communicators, actually. And so, and there's a plethora of issues that come from it. But, and it's good that social media does as well. I don't want to negate that. But I do believe that the challenges we have in, you know, our ability to be effective communicators today, in large part stems from a dependency on digital communication. Yeah, I agree. And that's what I was going to say I don't think it's new. I think I think this in and of itself has been, you know, a pandemic of its own right, if you will, that, you know, families, friends, colleagues, like we are so divided nowadays. And we are going to talk about, you know, dust discourse and how it's impacted by technology. And I just remember, like, you know, when I was being raised, and I'm being being very open, you know, I was raised in a way that no matter who our president is, you respect them, right. And nowadays, it's like, absolutely not. And I see that from my own family members of, you know, generations older than me. And it's like, but you taught me differently. It's fascinating. It is fascinating. Yeah. And you see that on social media a lot, right? Like this very quick response that is, if you voted for this president, like unfollow me, we're not going to talk to me anymore, and so on. And you couldn't just do that before, you know, this digital era, before it's like, okay, well, if you really disagree that much, and you want to go live in an echo chamber of your own building, you have to move states and so on. And even then, like, you know, people are going to be diverse anywhere you go. And so, yeah, not being able to, I don't know, have great communication, be able to connect with people. I believe it is one of the biggest issues that is causing this loneliness epidemic that we are actually having now. If you are unable to connect, if you think you are so right and that you can't have your opinion changed, and you can't find ways to connect with people that are different than you, you're going to live a life that is lonely and fearful. And that's not great. So, you know, you're talking about this confluence of how we communicate and technology and how we're using it. But then talk to us a little bit about how maybe you can find your tribe and how you can find other people that will help you sort the things out or, you know, give you a platform. I mean, do you see that occurring or is that slipping away? I do. And that's why I wrote a book is because I want to, because I'm optimistic, I really believe that if we start to prioritize the right skills to be able to conduct civil discourse, people will start to see how great it is in their own lives and they will actively want to practice or, you know, become better communicators so that they can connect with people better. And so, one of the tools that I teach in the book is this like really simple question of asking why when you get frustrated and angry, instead of getting angry, instead of getting frustrated, you ask, why do you have this perspective? Why did you arrive to this? And constantly doing that allows you to understand a person better and to get some sort of information and hopefully get them to be vulnerable with you so that you can understand, okay, this person has, you know, extenuating circumstances from their life that have led them to be this person that they are today. And I can see that and I can see the human in them and empathize with them. And that's really the goal, right, is being able to empathize with someone that is what's going to allow you to connect with them and that's what's going to be able to allow you to be really, really progressive and, you know, being solution oriented, not just agreeing to disagree. You know, let's talk about that a little bit more because I feel like where we are in the cycle of civil discourse is that there's a push to be right or wrong or to move somebody over to a different point of view versus saying, we don't all have to agree. You know, we need to be civil and we need to be respectful, but we don't all need to be on the exact same platform. Diversity, I think, is what is one of the strengths of our country. And I'm wondering about this, do you see people even understanding that, that we don't all have to be thinking the exact same way? That's a great question. I think that there has been a lot of noise or a lot of, like, vocal communities that believe that we should all think the same way and that if you think otherwise that you are wrong and that you need to be silenced or canceled. And I believe that what that has done from a cultural standpoint has created fear of then voicing a dissenting opinion or asking questions. And I think that that's really dangerous. When we're afraid to ask questions, when we are afraid to, you know, have a different opinion and to get feedback on that opinion, then all of a sudden you become, you know, really reclusive. And I think that that's, there's only bad that comes from that. So I think that we have to, we have to be enforcers of this, right? We have to insist that, you know, you can have common values and find common ground, even if there are, you know, niches at which point you have to say, like, okay, well, I live my life slightly differently than you would, or, you know, I have a decision that's slightly different here. But we can agree that, you know, we both care about our children and their upbringing or so on. Yeah, I have a question, you know, so as we, as we wrap, well, let me, let me ask this, how do you think advertising and marketing, right, goes into civic discourse and, you know, civil discourse? Is it helping or is it hurting? Good question. It's a good question. A really good question. And I think it depends on the advertiser. I think of, you know, in general, I think advertising as an industry is, is challenging because they're trying to grab your attention, right? And drive you somewhere for an agenda. And it allows some good, which is like you get a lot of products that are free, or like social media, right? You can engage for the most part on social media for free, but you're kind of be selling your eyeballs and that inevitably is going to somehow push you into an echo chamber. And that's what we've been seeing a lot is like, they want to keep you on the platform. So they're going to keep feeding you the types of content that you like to see, which isn't the type of content that's usually going to push you or challenge you to grow and see different things. So, you know, I think that over time, we'll start to see advertisers, social media platforms evolve a bit to meet the needs of people. If people are tired of the way that this is going, I think they'll have to change their strategies. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And these platforms, like they curate the, your, I want to say like what you believe in, they curate your likes, they curate, you know, like, oh gosh, I clicked on something this weekend. And now my whole feed, right, is like 25 other companies that do that same product or service. And so it really is this curation. Well, and I ask that because, you know, as we come off of Pride Month in June, right, and there's alcohol distributors that are very proudly standing behind the LGBTQIA community. And then there are just some like adamant like staunch, you know, people against it. And if it's just this, it's this fight online, you know, and I feel like this fight is just growing and growing and growing. And some things that I've said too is like technology allows us this barrier of safety, you know, and even this barrier of anonymity, we can show up as an anonymous person and just be so cool. Yes. So anonymity online is super challenging because there is, there's very little to hold someone accountable, right? And it's so easy to become that keyboard warrior and you just come out and say whatever you want and unleash your, your Rathun people. Yeah. The LGBTQ and, and advertisers is interesting because I think a lot of the frustration and people anger people feel when they see that is, is less about the advertisers. And it's more about their questions that are going unanswered when it comes to like, what do we do? What are children seeing? What are we allowing the conversation to be for children around the LGBTQ community? And so on. And I think that that is still like it's a, it's one of the most culturally challenging moments right now. I think like there's something we're talking about is like, what do we teach in school to children about gender and sex and so on. And I say that only because I think when people get really angry at like the advertisers, it's less like, oh, I'm tired of seeing this on my screen as an adult. And I think it's more like, what are we as a culture valuing? And that I think is, you know, the conversation then turns to, well, do you allow for freedom of people being the way that they want to be? And do we allow advertisers to have the freedom to do what they want? And if you agree with that, then, you know, then this is perhaps a result of that. So, you know, we have an interesting question that's come in and it's, it's from one of my favorite people. It says, he says, I recently read that people have less close friends and they did five or 10 years ago. Do we have an issue with accepting people and working through personal issues? Do you have any advice on working through issues with people? And this is kind of one of those, those things that leads into our next discussion or part about having those tools, what do they look like so that you can advance this? Because this question is right. I mean, we, as we become more isolated and we have fewer people to talk about, we just, we don't have any growth with the people around us, right? So what are some of these tools that you might recommend? So some of the tools I recommend, the most important, I think is active listening, and then the second most important is reflection. So I say active listening because you need to not be listening for the point of responding or trying to make your point, but listening to understand the other person better and to understand their perspective better. Because that will inevitably allow you to respond, respond more appropriately and more solution oriented, but it'll also give you the space to kind of remove yourself and thoughts and opinions that you feel like you should have formulated really quickly away and just focus on connecting with the person. And that's the, the arrow we're in with like media and social media again and news coming at us so fast, we think we have to have an opinion and respond immediately. And that immediacy is not always good for connecting with people and having a productive conversation. The second point I made, which was on reflection, which is that instead of going home and when you're standing in the shower in the morning thinking, ah, how could I have said that better? So I could have been right. And so that I could have made my point and da-da-da-da-da instead of that moment, be thinking to yourself, why did I let myself get angry? Why did I let that conversation devolve? Why did I let that become that way? Was it something I said? Did I was, you know, was it a moment that they said something and I got triggered inside and why did that trigger me? And so that reflection is really important. And I think people find that those moments of reflection in lots of different ways can be through reading, going on walks, talking to a therapist, meditation, I talk a lot about in the book. But whatever that way is for you, that reflection is incredibly important because it takes two. It's so valuable. And I pride myself on being, you know, anti-racist. I pride myself on being, you know, very open and inclusive. And I'm still not perfect, right? Like I still have said things online where thankfully someone else has corrected me or given me the opportunity to see it in a different perspective, especially coming from a place of privilege. And, you know, it's even for me, it's not always easy and it's not always comfortable, but I am so grateful every single time that I am giving that opportunity to learn and grow even bigger and even deeper. And I just think like there's, you know, there's so much going on in our world today and we could get paralyzed to say, well, I'm just not going to speak because I'm clearly going to offend someone, right? But like, how do we switch that paradigm, Milan? Like how do we still show up and have that ability and desire to learn and grow? So then not offending anyone is hard because offense is something that like you take, right? And what I'm saying in this, the reflection is like, oftentimes, you know, I say it takes two because you can also get offended and let the conversation turn into that. And so it's a choice, right? When someone says something offensive to me, I usually turn around and I ask like, not why, some form of why actually, you know, like, why did you feel the need that you had to say something like that to me to make your point right now? Because it is weaker communication, right? To attack the person instead of the idea or the concept. And so, yes, I think it's really hard when people are offensive. And I think that your mindset is really fantastic. And what part of what I emphasize in the book, which is to be a learner, a lifelong learner, a willingness to be wrong and to say, when presents with new information, I am willing to change my opinion. And I don't know, I think that's something we have to teach in school if it's, you know, maybe it's gained through life, but it's a willingness to be wrong and evolve and lacking that I think is part of the challenge, you know, but I think we have to inspire people by being those types of people. I think if we could teach cursive and civic discourse or civil discourse back in school, that would be good. Cursive, I haven't used, I mean, I, yeah, I don't know. Hey, listen, if you don't know cursive, you can't read documents that our country was founded on. I guess you're right. I guess you're right. Reading cursive, I guess is more important than than writing. But I mean, yeah, you know, I think it's an interesting thing. And you used the word evolution. And I think that's such a powerful, powerful word. Because I think it is appropriate to say, or to teach, you can evolve your, your emotions, your intellect, your opinions, the way you behave. And that is that's a good thing. That's a good thing to be able to stand up and say, I was wrong. And I have a different sense of this now. Or, I mean, I can say, you know, over the trajectory of my life, in different decades, it changes you your experiences, you know, your, your relationships, those changes that occur, hopefully make you better and not the same person that you were when you were 20, you know. And so, but we, we have lost the sense that it's okay to, to, to do that. And so I love that you, you brought that up. I think that's a really powerful thing. I'm going to put Milan's book back up. I'm just saying a guide to maintaining civil discourse in an increasingly divided world. Where do we find this book, Milan? You can find it anywhere you buy books, Barnes & Noble, Amazon. You can find more information about it at civildiscoursebook.com. I love it. I think it's a really, really cool thing. And I say that if you are in an organization that has a book club or you've been thinking about starting a book club, this might be one of those things that would be really great to get your team, you know, discussing and kind of sharing that. Because one of the takeaways I had today was, and I can see this in myself as that self edit, is that we become more fearful of speaking up. Right. That is a big problem, really a big problem. You can find Milan Cordostani on his website, MilanCordostani.com. And check him out. He's just a real innovative mind. You've done some fascinating things along the, the path of your life. And I love that you took time out to write this book. Thank you, Julie. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me on the show. This is a great conversation. Yeah, it is. Well, you know, we've done 800 and how many? 30. 830. I'm thinking this book is going to be a great gift for many, I'd say family, right? Before I show up for Thanksgiving, here's the book I'm going to read. I was just going to say, you know, that uncle that you're like not so sure about, get this book to them before Thanksgiving. Yeah. I think there might be some people in the Patrick family that might be receiving this book. Just saying. Thank you for the support. Well, again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, Jared R. Ransom, nonprofit nerd, my co-host, joining us today. Again, we are here because we have the largescent support of amazing partners. And they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join in with us day in and day out. And they really do make a difference in our communities. Hey, we will be off tomorrow celebrating Independence Day, Fourth of July. I don't know where ever you are, but in my community, not too many fireworks this year because of the fire situation. But Jared, up in Utah, where are they going to be doing? Well, it's a it's a bit of a mixture. It's dry here too. And of course, they want to preserve their, you know, their, their national forests. So there's a lot of drones, right? Like a lot of drone fireworks as opposed to actual fireworks. Yeah, those are fun. Those are fun. Milan, what about you? I am in Los Angeles. I'll be going to the beach. And I think we'll see some fireworks being shot off the water, hopefully. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, we're there in six hours. We'll be there. Hey, everybody, we like to end every episode of the nonprofit show with our mantra. And it goes something like this. Just stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here not tomorrow, but on Wednesday, everyone.