 Hello, welcome to Quack Tech. I'm Crystal. On this Tuesday morning, I've got somebody here who's supposed to be in school. But you know what? It's all good. Because we're doing a very healthy topic today, we'll have the luxury of having a mother-daughter team to talk about the relationship between parents and children, especially when teens have issues at home or at school or wherever. Because honestly, the teen years is just a whole other ballgame, isn't it? I mean, I've got two, and it's just like, I don't know what's going on. And I'm sure even if you don't have teenagers, you were once a teen, and my god, are their experiences that you don't want to share. But you know what? We're going to do it today, and we're going to focus on the concept of pain. Because, you know, there's a lot of self-harming with teens. That's not necessarily just nowadays. It could have been, you know, all along, and we're going to ask our therapist today to discuss all those issues. But so again, pain, self-harm, self-inflicting harm. Why do teens do that? And how do we, as parents, how can we communicate with them and to find signs so that we don't have these issues or can avoid certain problems? So welcome. And we're going to talk now. I've got our two lovely mother-daughter guests. It's really sweet to have both of you here. Welcome. This is Katherine Middleton. Welcome. Say something about yourself. Hi. I'm in 11th grade. That's it. And you're an honor student. Do you have any special interests? I really enjoy history and art and English and most of the time math, but sometimes it's frustrating. Wow. If only my kids would like any of those courses. I'd be like, whew. And of course, our lovely Ingrid Middleton, who's been here before, and a therapist who focuses on a lot of teen issues. Welcome again, Ingrid. Thank you. So nice to have you here. So let's start off with the concept of pain. Maybe a parent's interpretation. You wear two hats today, by the way. Yeah? You're a therapist plus mom. Let's start with you, Katherine. I mean, in school, do you see there's a prevalence of self-inflicting, you know, particularly self-inflicting? Anything to do with that, that you feel that is an issue or a problem? Well, in my school, I'm not sure if this is specifically because it's an all-girl school or a particular general school. There's not so much that cattiness of self-destruction as far as boys go in that particular subject, but I definitely do see people who, there's kind of a theme that's going on with my generation and that is to withhold your pain and to internalize it. I know that I definitely do it. I experience it in my friend group as well, so I think it's, a lot of it is the internalization of that pain and not expressing it, and so oftentimes it'll come out in various situations. Right. So it needs to channel somehow, right? So Ingrid, when you hear that and you know that, you know, kids are holding things in, how does that make you feel? Oh my goodness. It's probably the most challenging part of being both a therapist and a parent because I will see Katherine going through various things and we have this relationship where she knows she can come to me with pretty much anything and we have a very open dialogue and I think we communicate really well, but there are times where I really don't know 100% of what's happening and she's not really telling me, but I sense there is something and generally, usually it has to do a lot with school and then the pressures of what is she going to do when she gets out of school and what college is she going to go to and there's unfortunately, and I think when I was her age, we had time to play. We had time to get on trouble sometimes and it's like that isn't even the remotest thought in her mind. Is it that much pressure? I guess at that age, junior, senior years are really intense. Yeah, it's definitely a lot of pressure as far as grades go and now I mean you can't, you can barely get a job at McDonald's with you have only a high school degree, so. Oh gosh. Okay, well don't worry about jobs. You've got two good years in school here, you're gonna have, but when you say withholding pain, like what type of pain are you talking about? I think for the most part, it's emotional pain, especially in a first world country, you don't see a lot of physical pain unless it's domestic abuse. However, there as a teenager in general, you there's a surge of hormones, so you're experiencing that emotional growth, but at the same time, you don't have a lot of room to actually grow because at least for me, a lot of the time, I'm focused on school and learning. Right. Ingrid, she's a therapist in her own right. My gosh. She says mom, I don't want to be a therapist, but then she is. But she sees the big picture and there's young world, it's amazing, really is. Yeah, there's a kind of strange thing that goes on too with regard to my practice because I've been often told as when I was learning all of my theory and so forth, we had teachers that would say, please don't work with kids your own age. Don't counsel children that are the same age as your children because there's a lot of transference stuff that can go on. Right. So I will see kids that are my daughter's age, but I tend to see that there's just so many similarities. They all kind of are going through the same types of things where they just feel under so much pressure to perform. But the fact that you realize or see reasons for those pains and to see the big picture is really quite mature. And so probably you don't have the issues compared to some other. Do you have friends who have actually done things that you see like, oh, my God, she has so many phones? Because my 13 year old daughter tells me that she knows a couple of kids in her class in eighth grade have cut themselves. I mean, where does it come from and why is that age so, you know, sensitive to these possibilities? Is that directed to me? Well, I think there's a lot of things I think, on a good point and a negative point, but social media because they they can find things out like relatively simply, they can just type in a YouTube and then there'll be somebody talking about the ways that they self harm and then it's like a virus that'll spread and then people have ideas about Oh, well, that will maybe work for me. And so it can start off as kind of a cultural fad. And then it can turn into something really personal and dangerous. But do you think it stems from something where they are crying out for attention, or, you know, in response or rebellion to something? I think it could be all of the above. I think it really just depends. But I think it boils down to the notion that they don't feel that they're safe or comfortable talking to someone about what is really going on deep down inside. And parents, as we talked about last time, they're so busy, and they've got so many balls in the air. I mean, just even in Hawaii, it's tough to make a living. So you typically have two parent households that are going 100 miles an hour. And so when I work with parents, I just say, you know, just have a conversation, just have a conversation with your child, sit down and be interested in what they're doing and not grilling them or not trying to blame them. But find out what are they thinking? What are they curious about? What's happening? And, you know, their minds about, you know, just everyday things. Well, in my experience, you know, because boys don't communicate as well as girls do. So my 16 year old son is usually it comes out when I'm not asking for it, like whether it's in the car or we're doing something, we're talking about something else, then something will come out about reference. And then, then you go in and ask a little more. But, you know, that's like a luxury. I'll take it when it comes. We have our car conversations after school on the way to school. It's like there's no talking. It's like we just have sombers. She sleeps. Well, that's because I do not your brain is not up yet. Okay. But what are the differences you think in terms of teen girls and boys in terms of their concept of pain and expression? Well, I think there's definitely throughout history, even as for males, they have been taught that if you have emotions, or if you portray your emotions too vividly, then you're not a man, you're a woman. Is that socializing? What do we blame for that, though? That's not social media. That's like, I think it's just a trend that's come across throughout history. It's and it boils up in different places in modern times. And you see it. And I mean, we try to suppress it. We try to have we try to suppress it through feminist movements, things like that. But it's still it's very intrinsic. It's almost instinctual to have a man suppress his emotions. Right. Right. You can take it to a whole other level. And then you ask women, you know, what are they looking for in a man? And they're they're going to say we want someone to protect us. You know, it's not necessarily somebody who's going to cry when they feel sad. You know, I think it goes all the way back to the very beginning of humankind. And and when we were first, you know, populating the earth and it was, you know, women were home taking care of the kids and the man was going out to hunt and then bringing home the stuff and they don't have time to to cry and be upset. They have work to do out there. So let's think about the caveman ages. If we were in that world, what is paying to you in that type of scenario? So hunters would just grin and bear it, right? And what would the women do about pain? It's a good question. Maybe they have their communities. Absolutely. It's like the absolutely. Yeah, it's a very anthropologically speaking. It's a very common trend for women to come together in their community communities while the men go off and have their little man time. Yeah, so it's therapy for women to just chat with each other. It is natural. But men don't do that. They don't. They do it in sort of strange, not strange ways, but like overgames or over safe subjects where they feel like they can bond without necessarily getting emotionally close. So do you think people actually seek pain because there's some kind of pleasure that is associated with it? You know, the whole concept of no pain or gain, like you need to push yourself so that you feel that pain in order to grow and challenge and move forward. What do you think? So I think I know with some of my folks that a lot of times they seek pain just because that's the way they can feel something. Right. And as you know now with the proliferation of antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications, all these things that are very basic instinctual emotions. And so we're not even really, we're not helped. I don't know that we're, they're essential for our society, but I don't know that they're necessarily helping people work through that stuff. I'm really glad you brought up that because painkillers is a big problem nationwide, worldwide, right? I mean you hear it in the news all the time. But how much does it affect our lives and our social circle? Do you know any, because I know my son has a circle of friends and they do, they find painkillers as a drug and they abuse it. And then again as they go back to the numbing and why it's so attractive. I definitely, I know people who are on the Xanax trend. Yeah, right. And that kind of is a numbing agent because they also, they look for anti-anxiety medication, they look for anti-ADD medication and that's very numbing in a sense because it tones down your energy. And it's very accessible, right? Oh yeah. I mean do you have any ADHD patients who actually abuse their, well I have, it's a complicated question, but I have parents that, that are addicted to various prescription pain medications. They can't get them from physicians anymore. So, so they'll actually find them in online pharmacies and get them that way. And then the kids get ahold of them and then you've got this proliferation of it going on in the families. Yeah, and then in the schools because the kids know who has them, the prescriptions and they, I don't know if they sell them or they find a way to share it. I personally don't know because I mean it's not something that I do, I just know that it's an occurrence. Yeah, but it's a scary occurrence because it's out there and we as parents need to know that this is out there. So I mean there are so many issues on the table, you know, for on one side we're kind of encouraging pain to feel something like you said, but the same time people are are numbing themselves because they don't want to feel certain types of pain. How do we as parents deal with that? Why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll really kind of digest and think about how we look at pain. All right, so don't go away. Aloha Kako. I'm Marcia Joyner, inviting you to navigate the journey with us. We are here every Wednesday morning at 11 a.m. and we really want you to be with us where we look at the options and choices of end of life care. Aloha. I'm Ethan Allen, host of likeable science here on Think Tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. you'll have a chance to come and listen and learn from scientists around the world. Scientists who talk about their work in meaningful, easy to understand ways. They'll come to appreciate science as a wonderful way of thinking, way of knowing about the world. You'll learn interesting facts, interesting ideas, you'll be stimulated to think more. Please come to join us every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii for likeable science. With me your host Ethan Allen. Back here on Quok Talk with mother-daughter team Ingrid and Katherine Middleton talking about pain within the teen community and how we as parents can communicate these issues with them. So let's go back. We're talking about this whole contradiction of wanting the pain and numbing it. You know, do you ever read Milan Kundera? There's this philosophical writer and I remember years ago I wrote one of his books and the title of the book is The Unbearable Lightness of Being. Now obviously that's more catered to the weight of a body and love and passion and the need for that but I was just thinking there is a certain need for weight like we as people need to feel like there's trouble almost to give us substance. You know what I'm saying? I'm thinking of it maybe more in terms of that we have all of these senses. We have hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling and that by by taking pills or doing things that numb us we're not able to really feel those things that are kind of intrinsic in who we are. I use them when she is. So that's not really answering your question. No, no, no. But I feel like we have all of these capabilities and one or two of them are not really used. It tends to affect us and then we get into trouble and we just don't do well, we're not healthy. And especially for girls because we think things so much. I don't want to pry into your private life but you know as in your teen years you know with relationships and possibilities. I know you go to no girl's school. I don't know how you meet guys. I don't go to school. Really? No guys. Come on, you have to have some social. Well I know some groups do. I don't have time. But that's really good that she's able to isolate that time to focus. It's good and not so good. I think that's maybe one thing that's difficult is that we don't have exposure to it. So how's she gonna handle it when she goes to college? She'll figure it out. But you know for your average student who does go to a co-ed school, I'm sure there are so many relationship issues, especially for girls. And again that need for that weighted drama to give themselves that type of you know it's almost a desirable feeling. Yeah I'm a total drama. I love drama. I mean not when it's about me but whenever there's drama going on it's like everyone in the school is just like they're crazy like give it to me. Right. So there's an energy and attractiveness to that. So you think that youths tend to seek drama because they need that I mean again that translation of pain in an emotional way is something that we as teenagers tend to seek? I think pain and drama are a little bit different because I think drama brings people in to something that they can have in common with each other. So it's almost like a bonding experience. True. Whereas pain is so individual and I think that that is where people get really lost because they can't really communicate that necessarily with a group or have people come in and support them with what they're going through. But oftentimes drama can lead to a painful experience and I mean I don't know as again as parents how do you sense when something's going the wrong way? Whether the kid is going through a relationship and they're closed off obviously and then they have certain signs that must be of the wrong track. Well again this just goes back at least I'll speak for a second and then I'll have Catherine speak but I think it goes back to just really knowing your child and or at least spending the time and taking the time to pay attention to what's going on and again parents don't have a lot of time. So it's just the times they do have it seems like they're arguing or it's your homework done or it's kind of like task oriented. Yes, yes. And I think some of our happiest times are literally when we're doing nothing or we're just kind of hanging out and there's like no agenda and we can just kind of be with the moment but I think those moments are really important for parents to have with their kids. Do you appreciate your time with your mom? Oh 100 percent. I if my mom's working during the day and I don't see her I only see her in the morning and at night and I feel extremely depleted. Wow. Like I'm not getting enough sustenance. Wow. I wish you could say that about their mom. But then again we do have a special relationship I would say and I know not everyone has that kind of relationship with their parents. Right. I know last time when Ingrid came on and your mom came on and said that she had such a great relationship with you I'm thinking that's bullshit. You know she has like such a good communication with their parents. Something's wrong. I think well we've faced a lot of hardships throughout our you know history and just challenges just with a lot of different things and I think that's brought us closer and I don't know we just we're pretty honest with each other. We know when something's up and at the same time this is what I love about being a parent at the same time I am I am the number one fan of my daughter moving forward with her life so it's not like I'm so attached that I'm going to have to. Okay so maybe that's a big one. Oh my gosh. Parents are pulling on. Absolutely. That is where they will need to find a way to escape. Absolutely. Absolutely. The kids will. Yes. And I have clients right now that that's happening with the parents are about to send their kids off to college mom's panicking and just like going crazy saying my daughter's not ready and it's like no she's ready you're not ready. But what have been the other extreme because I feel like I'm a free range mom I'm really really relaxed with their things and my son just criticized me over the weekend because I said my daughter got sick because she went out for a sleepover twice in a row and he's he's he said you as a mom should have put your foot down and just not let her go out twice in a row. I'm like I'm trying to let you have your own choices so that you can figure things out for yourself. Well and that's how you let her. If she gets sick you know she will. She will learn absolutely it's not always roses and Valentine's Day. What do you feel about that in terms of parents I mean we must have friends who are very strict parenting and how do you feel about the ideal parent communication with you. I do have friends who have helicopter parents and I can see that that is not an effective way of parenting they're stressed out and it just it really weighs down their happiness and emotional stability. Though at the same time it's not good to have a parent who's overly lenient. Because then the kid can just do whatever they want. So I mean my mom's a nice middle so I got really lucky. How reciprocal is the communication because obviously you're looking out for her and encouraging her in her life but how often do you ask your mom how she's feeling about life and because I think a lot of times it's all one-way street. It's definitely not one way. That's great. Well I asked I mean I asked my mom how her day is every day and I feel like I sometimes feel like a mom towards my self. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But it's true I mean she yeah. Can you tell when your mom feels pain. Oh 100 percent. And what are your ways to approach that. A lot of the time it's just me asking her what's wrong or giving her space and sometimes I'll just I don't know sometimes she'll just ask me to stay with her just be there with her we don't have to talk or we like I'm just there for moral support I think. But then we do talk a lot of the time as well and I think just talking about it that's why therapy is so effective in most cases because some people just need to talk. That's all it is. It's true. So let's talk about problematic teens who have pain in their lives and how they can release it if they don't have a the luxury of a relationship like yours how can they go out and talk to someone you mentioned there's some online but that's only for eighteen and above so how would you suggest for teens to open up to someone. I think it just goes back to just you do have to find someone and I I am just such a proponent for therapy in general but but all that now they can get online themselves and Google it I mean and we can we can see minors as it doesn't matter how old they are parent does have to sign off for that you know but but I think it's just so important to find someone to talk to and that you can trust if it's a friend's parent or as a church member or you know somebody that works at the favorite restaurant you go to that you feel like you could hang out with for a while right but do you think for this online I mean I think it's great that they have this online therapy concept but are there dangers to it like anything else yeah of course like I right now I'm doing online work as I mentioned earlier and the problem with it is there's wonderful benefits but the problem is you never actually see these folks like face-to-face so you don't notice those body changes body language and so and a lot of my work I get a lot of information if someone's just sitting there I can get a lot of information without them saying a word and so because it's mostly text based and then sometimes telephone you're getting a picture and maybe a safer picture for them because they can tell you what they want but but for me it's kind of limiting in that sense it's great that people who maybe normally wouldn't get help would start but limiting but that just goes back down to why you have such a healthy relationship is that it's the talk it's the physical being with each other and the energies you share right and I think a troubling teen who doesn't necessarily have that at home maybe can find someone like you said to just hang out with and let things it's hard though I think for boys more or two way hard for boys yeah I think social media has become a good outlet for that they're pros and cons to social media but that's I would say that's a good one because you can connect to people from so many diverse cultures but at the same time it's extremely easy for and notorious for predators to come on yes exactly it's too open what about schools though don't schools have I mean oh they have counseling but how many people really take advantage of that and whether or not that is helpful my school doesn't have counseling really which yeah um yeah okay do you think that each school each high school should oh my gosh a hundred thousand percent yes we all need counselors in schools um I think that it's essential I think that there's just so many opportunities for for kids to you know to have you ever advocated that it's for school for school I yes maybe they don't all girls schools have no not as many problems that what they think yeah I'm not sure but um but I can vouch that that definitely needs to happen a lot of it is resources our student population isn't as high as it could be and there's just not a lot of money circulating oh okay well Ingrid maybe that's your calling card yeah it's a go there I would love to do that I mean I that's a really good idea actually yeah well I hope you do so what are some ways you can both um you know if some reason somebody's listening to this and they don't want to confront their pain but you know it's tearing them apart inside what are some suggestions you both can give to even changing or moving forward from that it's such a horrible especially when you sit in the beginning pain is something if you keep it inside and hold it it does something to you it does it does it's a horrible feeling well and I think the first indicator is that you're feeling something uncomfortable and you don't quite know what it is and I think it's right then that you need to like just find somebody to just see if you can talk things out with because the longer that you wait then the more layers of things happen and then those experiences pile up and then before long you've got a you know a history that you haven't dealt with and then there's just a lot of you know trauma associated with it so um so um I think noticing you just really have to pay attention to yourself be self-aware and just pay attention to things that go on and and then be able to reach out but going back to the numbing idea because I really do scare me this whole xanax thing I didn't even know that existed until I heard this generation like you say it's so prevalent um you know that do you think that the act of someone even attempting to take something like that definitely means that they have some issues or is it just their experimental teenage you know self that just says I just want to see what it's like do you think something stemming from it I think honestly I think that it's a little I think it's both I think that like a natural curiosity a kid with natural curiosity might want to try it just to see what happens just out of interest but then there's the person that might be feeling a lot of stuff that doesn't have a don't have a clue what to do with it and so they're taking something to put it away or make it go away and and not really have you know an ability to know how to manage it well that's the problem right most kids don't really know how to manage no they don't I mean what is your threshold I mean do you think you know your threshold of pain both physically and emotionally um I honestly don't know what my hormones are capable of going back to the hormone but this is a very good point you know it controls us women at certain times and it's really interesting how that's associated with our actions and feelings oh yeah so what do you think I mean as women as young women how do we how do we maintain um and and filter out unnecessary pain I think a lot of it is as we were talking about earlier is that connection we have of banding together as we have historically it it's really helpful I know sometimes like I just have a group of friends and sometimes we'll just sit around a circle and complain because that's helpful right it feels good right after you kind of just I mean and it's really meager things that and it's just it's real sometimes it's just really dumb like I oh I didn't wake up late enough this morning right something just so simple envy your um air your era because you know you have this group of friends at school that you can just say stupid things to and it feels good but as adults you know you you you lose that you do so I think that you are so fortunate to have a daughter who is open and and reciprocal and just you know encompassing it's just really really wonderful to see and I hope audience out there really kind of feel that and to encourage relationships to continue to communicate and if you do have pain to please please release it in in constructive ways and like Ingrid said and then Catherine said you know it's it's intrinsic things that's the word thank you so much for the wonderful conversations and sharing all your experiences thank you all right