 You ask, we answer. Welcome to Can This Marriage Be Saved, where we go up against common relationship problems and help you determine if this relationship should stay or go. Hi, you're here for another exciting episode of Can This Marriage Be Saved. I'm Riffa Slatkin and we're here tonight with my husband Shlomo Slatkin and I wanted to ask him the question because I'm wondering myself. Is divorce contagious? Meaning I see circles of friends where one person gets divorced, another person gets separated, and little by little the whole circle of friends is divorced. And I guess I want to know, is there some kind of psychological effect that that happens where it's kind of like divorce is contagious? Well, there is a phenomenon called social contagion where patterns of behavior kind of spread around friends, families, close acquaintances because they feel so close and like-minded. And divorce clustering is one type of social contagion. So the same can be said sometimes when one person gets married in a social group and everybody starts getting married. So there is a phenomenon that suggests that divorce is contagious. Now obviously I think there's a little bit more to it than that. It's not just this kind of like catching a cold, but it's something more than that. I think a lot of times there could be a stigma against getting divorced perhaps in a circle or nobody wants to be the first one to get divorced even though there could be a lot of people who are maybe entertaining their thought or they're suffering in their relationship. But once one person does it, it's kind of almost gives the other's permission to do it as well. So you're saying that the people in the circle were thinking about it all along, but only now that one person kind of broke the ice, they're doing it? I think, first of all, they might be thinking about it all along. I also think that maybe even if they weren't thinking about it, they may not have had a good relationship. But then once one person does it, they start thinking, oh, well, maybe I should do that or they're doing it, then maybe I should do that too, maybe I should leave, maybe I could find someone better as well. It's funny. I remember we had a web designer once years and years ago, and I remember he was helping us build our marriage website and he had said, I said, are you familiar with this content? I want somebody who can kind of help us and has some idea about marriage and relationships to help run our blog, The Marriage Restoration Project. And he said, oh, well, all of my friends and my wife's friends are divorced. In fact, we're the only couple in the circle that's not divorced. And I'm thinking to myself, my goodness, you might want to think about getting new friends. I just felt like that was really not, I mean, that's really wonderful that he's such a good friend to his friends. I don't know if they were divorced before he met them or after. So, you know, it's great that he's supportive of them, but I kind of felt like for their own sake, it would benefit them to get maybe a new circle of friends because I wouldn't want that to rub off on them. But I guess kudos to them that they stayed strong for so long and they didn't let it affect them. What do you think? I mean, should they seek new friends or? Well, I mean, I'm not necessarily advised people to drop their relationships with people, but you are influenced by your peers and it can have an effect. I definitely think it can have an effect. And I think people just, they start seeing what's out there and especially, I think, more and more with social media that it's just so easy to get influenced by what other people are doing and to get confused and to kind of be drawn away from your values and your priorities. And you really have to have a strong sense of who you are to avoid some of those temptations. And is it kind of like Misry Loves Company, where it's like the group effect? You know, it kind of feels better when you're doing it all in a group. It could be that, I mean, they all, I feel like they can all support each other. They're all going through it together. It can become like almost like a, you know, a club that they all, you know, another thing they can all relate to. So I guess the answer to the question is divorce contagious is, could be yes. Yeah. I mean, we often hear about when a rash of divorces, it's, you know, that's, I'm saying that, you know, it seems like it's, it's quite common, at least from, you know, what we've heard. Well, that brings me to think about another topic, which is kind of similar, which is what about when you're talking to a friend or you're talking to, you know, maybe an individual psychologist that you go to just for, you know, working on yourself or even your priest or rabbi. And what about when that person says, you know, it sounds like you and your spouse are just not happy or it sounds like you and your spouse or sorry, it sounds like your spouse has a personality disorder. Why don't you think about a temporary separation? What do you think about when people, even therapists, are advising people to separate or ultimately divorce? Well, first of all, I think without, it's very hard to advise on a relationship without working with both parties. So to advise someone to make any decision in their relationship, to leave their relationship, I find it to be irresponsible if you haven't actually heard directly from the other person because everyone has their own account of the relationship and what's going on. So because one spouse is complaining to you, it doesn't necessarily mean that's the reality, that's their perspective, that's their reality. So that's number one. Number two, separation is not always beneficial. In fact, a lot of, I've been told by clients that separation isn't helpful because there's really nothing that, it's very hard to even reconcile after that because there's really nothing that you're sharing if you have nothing to do with each other, if you're separate from each other. So it's really hard to repair the relationship. While some people in either space or need a break, sometimes it's just the first step to be able to leave and to get permission to get out of the marriage. So in general, I don't really think that separation is really the best idea to kind of get some clarity on your relationship. I think the best idea is to work together with your spouse and to figure things out together. So what should a couple that's considering temporary separation do instead? I think they need to get qualified professional help for their relationship. And even if that professional is telling them to separate, does that mean that they're not a qualified professional? Well, I think, I think I don't see why anyone would tell someone to separate. I mean, it's none of their, I mean, I unfortunately have heard plenty of stories that have suggested that, but I think it's no one's business to tell somebody what to do in their relationship unless somebody's in danger. Otherwise, they should be up to the couple to decide. The job of a therapist is to help facilitate the relationship and help them work together, but not to advise them whether to stay married or not. I know that there's a lot of therapists out there that are suggesting this, because I've heard from couples where one partner will say, I kind of regret I was married for 30 years and one day I just decided to separate. And when I say to them, well, you're married 30 years, what did it for you at the end? And I kind of, I've heard you talking about this. So I said to this one friend, were you seeing a therapist? She goes, come to think of it, I was. I was seeing an individual woman therapist and I was talking about how I was not feeling happy anymore. And the woman suggested, why don't you separate? And this friend of mine realized that it kind of was prompted by the advice of this therapist because I was telling her my theory about how so many people are separating because of the advice of an individual therapist. This is really a dangerous phenomenon, I think. Don't you think, Shalma? It's horrible. And therapists are seen as experts. You're going to, they have almost, you know, a position of power. You're going to them, you're asking for their sage advice. This, we assume that they know more about, about relationships and can help us. And while many, many can, we are going to be overly influenced by them. And even if we're not so naive, we can still have a seed planted in our head that, oh, well, you know, maybe, maybe there's something wrong or maybe, maybe that's a good idea. Maybe my spouse has this issue. It's just, it's really not helpful. I always tell people that if they're going to go to individual therapy and they have problems with their relationship, this therapist should not be speaking about their spouse. The therapist should even just help, help them deal with their feelings about it and explore their issues about, about their spouse as opposed to talking about their spouse and how bad their spouse is. It just, it just validates, some people are looking almost to validate their desire to, to leave. Do you think somebody seeing an individual therapist should, if they are having problems with their marriage, should see a separate marriage counselor or see that same individual but bring their spouse along? I don't think they should see the same individual be, because they, I think they should see a separate therapist because first of all, if you're going to an individual therapist and then you bring your spouse along, well, the individual therapist already has a relationship with you and it's an unlevel playing field. They're not necessarily going to be neutral and your spouse is unlikely to feel safe. I just generally don't, I just generally don't recommend it as it's, there's kind of ethical issues of whether the therapist can really be neutral if they've already have a therapeutic relationship with the individual. Hmm. So safety, you mean the other spouse might feel like the therapist is already like set up to, you know, work against him or her? Yes. That it's, it's my spouse's therapist, not the therapist for our relationship, which means that they're already going to be potentially taking sides. This is especially the case when, you know, you're dragging your spouse to therapy and they don't really want to come anyway and now they're coming to your therapist. You know, it's not a recipe for a good outcome, let's just say. And that's really the key that like when you're going into counseling, you want to come out with a good outcome. So maybe to keep that in mind, you know, maybe somebody listening is thinking, oh, I really like my individual therapist. Now I have to go look for somebody else. You know, what an annoyance, but, you know. I just heard, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just, I was just doing a training on the best ethical practices of couples therapy and I was presenting in someone in the audience, a therapist mentioned that she was doing therapy. There's an, there's a woman who's getting individual therapy and the individual therapist, um, she brought her, her husband and the husband, the therapist thought they should, they don't belong to, with each other, they should get divorced. So she wanted to get couples therapy. So she got couples therapy and I forgot why she couldn't do couples therapy. Maybe this therapist didn't want to do couples therapy with them. She was doing individual. So they got couples therapy with this woman who was in my presentation in the audience and she said they really wanted to save the marriage, but the individual therapist kept telling her over and over again, this guy's not right for you. You should, you should leave and she wound up getting divorced. Oh, that's horrible. And I mean, unfortunately this is a, this is not an uncommon, um, phenomenon. What are some warning signs so people listening, if they're currently seeing a therapist, what are some warning signs so they can know if this is happening to them in their sessions? Is your therapist giving you advice about your spouse? Is your therapist talking about your spouse? Is your therapist talking negatively about your spouse, especially without even knowing him or her? Definitely. If they haven't even met them, then all the more so to advise you. But even if they have, um, if you, I would say, if you're coming to marriage, if you're coming to counseling, there's certain, there's something called counseling with treatment goals. If your treatment goal and your motive for counseling is to save your relationship, then a therapist who's pushing against the treatment goals would not be doing their job. They came to you for help to save their marriage. If you're trying to tell them to dissolve their marriage, um, that's none of your business. I had another story recently where someone was telling me they went to a therapist, a couple of therapists, and they saw them privately also. And they said, you know, I don't, I don't think you love it. You don't really love each other. It's just platonic love. And I told her, I said, it's, it's none of his business. They wanted to try to save their marriage and hear the therapist saying that they're not, they don't really love each other. It's none of his business, why they should stay together or not. Um, the therapist is supposed to be impartial and not, not to insert their own opinion. If I see a couple that's together, they want to be together, I might, you know, I might look at them and think like, I have no clue why she would want to be with this guy, but they've chose each other and that's their life and you're not living their life. So ultimately a therapist has to be there for their client and their client's needs. It's not their job to determine what their client's best interests are unless they're of course, um, in a dangerous relationship or they're, you know, physical and physical danger. But otherwise, if you don't like their personality or you don't think they're, they're in love, that's none of their business. If they want to reconcile, if they want to stay together, then your job is to help them help facilitate that. So I remember actually going to an acupuncturist, Shalem, but you'll remember this really well. And I remember, you know, complaining just about little things here and there. And this therapist would give me a lot of advice and I'd come home and I'd come home frustrated and angry with you. I just out of the blue. And I think we talked about it and we realized I was getting influenced by this woman's completely untrained advice. She thought she was, you know, an acupuncturist and that licensed her to be a coach, right? And we discovered this and the hardest part for me was I remember I had prepaid for like 12 acupuncture sessions. So I laid out a good amount of money because she had this payment plan that if I would prepay, then I would get a couple free sessions in there. And I remember actually going to a different acupuncturist to kind of get a second opinion. And he, you know, was able to show me that what I was the treatment I was getting with her was absolutely not doing any, anything for me and not helping me at all. So it was really hard for me to kind of cancel and quit from her practice because I had put out all this money and I didn't get the money back. But I'm really glad that I did. So the reason I bring up that story is if a listener right now, if you are seeing somebody who is doing this to you, you know, and advising you to separate, yes, now you're going to need to find somebody else. Yes, now you're going to need to cancel because you don't want to harm your marriage, but it's worth it. It's worth that initial heart, you know, hardship. Don't you think, Shalama? Because I mean, their life, their marriage is at stake. Yeah, certainly. It's definitely worth it. I remember this acupuncturist, I think she told a friend of yours to divorce her husband. I remember talking about this acupuncturist with a friend of mine and she was telling me how she was starting to tell her that her husband, you know, doesn't she notice that her husband is ADHD and he never finishes projects and, you know, isn't he hard to live with? And she just like finally realized it and started to run out of there. And she also canceled it. So I'm really glad that I did. So I guess I want to speak to the listeners if you are listening. They were advice givers. Yeah, and what should they do if it's a friend or a rabbi or a priest that's, you know, suggesting it? Because I know a lot of people will go see their friends and talk about their, you know, spouse and their complaints about their spouse. I mean, unfortunately, it's really, really should not be the job of the client or the person who's seeking help to have to tell the person they're seeking help from that they should not be advising them to get divorced. But that does happen. Yeah, I mean, it seems to happen a lot. So I mean, you could say like, I don't want if things if you're complaining about your spouse, you know, you're kind of setting yourself up for that. I mean, you can say I just want you to listen or I want you to give me some advice on the things that I can do without without talking about my spouse. But what about a clergyman who let's say the couple is going to clergy, you know, and let's say they're going into the office and they're fighting and the clergyman, you know, doesn't necessarily know how to handle it and they kind of should refer to a mental health license license professional. So the clergyman should refer to a licensed professional with a track record of successfully saving couples. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And if the clergyman is not and it's kind of assuming the role of a marriage counselor without having that professional training, what do you say? It has, it's potentially dangerous if they're, you know, there are many people that have, I guess that can offer good advice and can be helpful. But if they're undermining the relationship or taking sides, making one spouse feel like they're the problem, then they really have no business in doing what they're doing. Yikes. That seems like it would apply to a lot of people listening. Don't you think so? I hope not. But unfortunately, we've received, we've seen a lot of many phone calls and emails. I guess that's why we're doing this, not to freak you out and alarm you, but to make you aware of this phenomenon that if it's happening to you, you are not alone. There are a lot of couples out there being advised to separate or divorce by their therapist, by their rabbi, by their priest. And, you know, we've gotten a lot of flacks. Slow Mo wrote an article called, How My Therapist Destroyed My Marriage, which is found on our blog. And I know after you submitted that article, you got a lot of responses from therapists, right? That said, how dare you? The therapist hated it, but the common folk, the readers loved it, loved it. But then the readers, people came up to me, that's all many people sent me emails, phone calls, wanting to spread the article because they just felt it was so true and that the more people that were aware of this could stop this phenomenon. Well, that's why we're here. And we really want you to be able to get the help that you need. If this is happening to you, if you're in a dire place, please contact us. We're at the Marriage Restoration Project. We are very excited also to announce that in November, November 13th to 15th, we're hosting a Getting the Love You Want workshop in Baltimore, Maryland. Getting the Love You Want is based on Harville Hendrix's book called Getting the Love You Want, based on amalgotherapy. And if you are a couple that's having a hard time now or you would like to improve your relationship or you're in a place where you were recently just advised to separate and you're not sure if you should or you're on the verge of divorce, come to our workshop. Let us know that you're thinking about coming. It's going to be at the Towson Marriott, which is in Baltimore. We have special group rates for you. We can give you all the details. It's on our website, themarriagerestorationproject.com, and there's a tab on top called Events, and you'll see the tab for Getting the Love You Want workshop. Contact us if this podcast speaks to you and you're in this situation. We really want to see you get the help that you need. This workshop can really give you the hope because it really helps you see the big picture. Unfortunately, when people who are not experienced and trained in working with couples, it's very easy to get caught up in the problems. How do we solve the problems? Often we feel like the problems cannot be solved, but when we understand the big picture, then everything seems to make sense, and the relationship has hope. That's really one of the most amazing things that I found with amalgotherapy, especially when we're working and doing the workshops or the two-day intensives that really transforms the way that couples view their relationship. They have a whole new way of looking at the conflict, and they realize that there's a greater purpose, and that the conflict is actually a proof that they pick the right person. Encourage any of you who are in that confused place or unsure of whether you should stay together to take this opportunity to join us on this weekend and really learn about relationships, how they work, and be open to the possibility of surprise and transformation for your own relationship. Shalama, would this help a couple that's been unfaithful, one of the people? Certainly. I mean, if a couple is committed to saving their relationship, even in cases of infidelity, it's definitely possible. Oh, that's very good news. Thank you so much for listening, and we will let you know when our next podcast episode is published. Take care and have a wonderful evening. Bye-bye. We hope you've enjoyed listening to today's topic. We'll be back again to focus on another topic that is sure to help you with your marriage. For any questions or concerns, please email us at info at themarriagerestorationproject.com, with best wishes for your relationship success.