 We're going to start with performance reviews and maybe some that suck and maybe some that don't suck first just give you a little bit of background on me and This is also Andrew Tuttle who was a major partner in the work that I did in this area So I'm currently the CEO at the hand band Since August of last year my path here has been through various executive roles in Halliburton At landmark graphics, which is a division of Halliburton and all I guess services company This particular study that I'm going to show is work that began Probably about 20 years ago when I was kept getting frustrated with doing performance reviews and finding that I just wasn't getting Value to me or value to the employees in the reviews that I was doing And so I started changing the game I said maybe I'm looking at the wrong problem and I started looking at values oriented view of performance and it started to change for me and actually the feedback I got some managers that were working with me and and employees that were working with was always positive And then when I came into IHS as a VP of product development about four years ago It was a perfect time for me to come into a new role and also Oh This is also when I Started to see that Andrew Tuttle had been there at the company for a while He was doing something very similar now Andrew didn't work for me He was actually in a parallel group to the group that I was involved in but he was going down a similar path in trying to improve the performance reviews and also performance appraisal early the overall process in HR And both of us were for managing development team. So This was good because he was doing something similar and I was able to work with him and actually build on what I've been doing for 20 years And this is the result that we'll be be sharing is what we ended up doing Other things about me. I've been involved with the Agile Alliance I was the co-founder of the Agile Development Conference, which is now I think we're the Agile Alliance response which is 2,500 people a year when we started it was much smaller We were about 250 people but over time we grew it and I ran the conference for a number of years Also was the co-founder of the Agile Leadership Network Wrote in the book stand back and deliver about leading business agility And so now now heading out doing Network building in the space lean can band is front-roll. I've also this is my fourth Agile India I really enjoy coming here and have enjoyed the area Andrew has been with IHS markets for 10 years and it's been a great collaboration with him So couple of questions from the audience first So who loves performance reviews? All right, we've got we've got a couple. So what do you love about performance reviews? So you appreciate the feedback and and building on that So you are you one giving giving the feedback or are you the one receiving it mostly? So okay, and which side do you like better? Which side do you like better? The giving feedback or the receiving what that? Okay, good, and we had another we had another person who really loves performance reviews Okay, and are you which side are you normally on are you on the giving of the feedback or the Both sides both sides. Okay, so yeah So I didn't know whether anyone was gonna raise their hand and said I love performance reviews There's a psychological safety thing here, right? So if you raise your hand like this guy's just telling me performance reviews suck So he's gonna I'm sure he's gonna be that you know Pick on me and make fun of me and that was my intent But you guys take some great answers So I really appreciate that because that's actually is a real part of performance reviews It's to try to figure out you know if in the ads or community we value feedback Why why are we not getting real good feedback? How we design feedback into our performance and improve our overall performance. That's our intent So what are some of the challenges that you have so those of you that didn't raise your hand and didn't buy performance reviews What are some of the challenges you've experienced performance reviews? Yeah, it's a sale case. Yeah, so it's got it's a bad it's not designed to actually provide feedback It's designed to it's a winning game. Yeah, great Yeah There's a reasons the effect yet, you know, and you probably were dealing with goals that were set when a Year ago. Yeah, so you so something's incongruous here, right? We got we got a reasons the effect yet We're setting goals from a long time ago Yeah, and so that's one of the challenges and Having a conversation before the session with the arcade because it's the same Independent Briota session yesterday about beyond budgeting the problem with budgeting is we have three three goals of budgeting that are Time to fighting with each other and performance reviews exactly the same problem We've got multiple goals that performance reviews are trying to do and then it comes down to things like this It's about reward and if it is about rewards, how is that helping in terms of getting honest feedback? How is that helping in other areas? So great great contributions any other? Right, okay, so the feedback is is batched. It's big end big end. And how do we feel about batches in the agile world? We don't like that. We don't like big batches. We'd like small continuous great Yeah, what's that? Oh, you need to differentiate people. Yeah. Yeah, somebody somebody's decided you must differentiate You know you have to how many people who stack ranking here is that back ranking a fair number Let's just become less and less popular but a lot of people who Microsoft is very very big on stack ranking for a lot of times And they've backed away from that The human it misses the human aspect. Yeah, it's supposed to be a bad people and it misses the human aspect Yeah, totally. Yeah. No, great. Okay Anything that has worked well Okay Yeah, great, great anyone else other okay. Yeah velocity is a performance metric awesome my My stories are one million points Awesome, great. I'm worth a million All right great, let's move on to a bit of what I've seen in terms of what got me going is that What I usually see is typical approach to objective setting a typical approach to performance reviews is this management by objective, you know the Organization sets of objectives. It bounces down to and and goes on down. We do the evaluation reward and HR's been preaching this For a long time. No, it's a and be a Peter Drucker, right? I think so, but anyway, this has been out since the 50s and it hasn't changed a whole lot It's sort of morphed into okay ours. It's more or less the same thing and I'm just generally not a big fan of this approach. It wasn't working for me And this part of the thing was all the problems. You're not making smart objective smart objective Yeah, the specific measurable attainable relevance and time base or something like that People using smart objectives You are yeah, okay Not everyone, but okay, but this is a traditional approach What I was finding in knowledge work and software development is there's some fundamental problems with smart objectives Not always, but this is what I typically found. This is something. This is actually from a HR book Kind of show you what a good smart objective might look like, you know, increase code production rate It's something lines of code for unit time In an actual HR book that people paid money for, right? What sort of behavior does this drive? Is it what we want to have anything to do with delivering happy customers delivering software to have the customer? No, this is crap. I mean, this is not at all a good thing You know Smart objectives can have unintended consequences. You know, here we have your goal is to write bug free software So we're gonna pay $10 per bug that we find and fit What sort of behavior does that good? All the development team goes you who were rich why right because they're gonna write themselves a new mini-van You could write bugs really fast and you can fix them real fast. You know, that's the wrong behavior These are not the types of things we're trying to do and when you start Formulating things and it's really easy to write bad smart objectives So we have this idea smart objectives, but I think it's one of the fundamental problems we have with most traditional performance with these systems But I find most smart objectives do not comprehend uncertainty We talked about we set the objectives in the beginning and then what happens we review at the end and we have a Residency effect so we don't hunt you know, and what do we have in software development any knowledge work? We have uncertainty. We know that They haven't even unintended once consequences. I Think they also lead to a myopic approach to career counseling career coaches Which to me is one of the most important parts of feedback mentioned and lastly Behind every objective is a subject Once you realize I mean we try we go we got to have objectives got objective That is foolish Every objective has a subject and be our case story on beyond budgeting is based on the same story It's these unintended consequences. It's these uncertainty and when we set an objective It was subjective in order to set that objective. So if you have a subjective in there anyway, why aren't we just acknowledging that from the get go? Let's be real. Let's be honest about this and let's deal with it So instead of smart objectives, what we end up are things which are pretty dull So this guy debut at your stemming very very much inspiring this modern movement of Change and systems thinking and management and being being thinking He said abolish management by objective and end one of his 14 points Great. Let's just get rid of them The problem with stemming was he never really said what to do instead And it sort of sucks Because if I'm not going to do it, what I've been doing said So I think it's right. I mean the management of that objective thought was a part of the problem There are better ways to do it and we come across approaches that we like much much better I mean, so do they really have to suck? We think they don't have to suck they can be pretty good and actually something I think we found it even if we didn't have to do them We probably would based on what we've ended up changing But we had to start with some guiding principle. We need to go back and see what is it that we really care about So in the conversation that I've had with Andrew and we had a whole team that was involved in this I Made a comment and Andrew my partner misunderstood what I said But he took it and said oh what we what you said was values or what we value and That's actually the same thing that Reed Hastings said in his presentation Netflix But that's what he but his confirmation bias was I must have been talking about what he said It wasn't exactly I'll get to that later what I said But it's true. I mean one of the things you have to understand is are we a value space organization? I mean if we value values, then let's understand what those values are so as we were a development organization We said and this is basically the same thing that I had been working with very close to the same thing I've been working with for 20 years But Andrew had gone down an independent path Come up with something very similar and then all I had to do was spend the last bit convincing him That I was right all along and eventually he came along so it worked out really well But we said up that these are the four five things that we really care about in software development delivery business engagement teamwork quality and initiative and innovation If these were the things we value then let's make sure that that's what we're looking at That's what we care about And we went with some specific things You know the short version and then a slightly longer version of those values So that was a stark one You know the five things we're gonna look at then let's figure out and structure around that What I really said was that value is what we value Okay, which is it was just also really important. We value getting things delivered to our customers and That once we so he misunderstood what I said, but it was still really important values I think business value is what I what is important to us And we came to this realization that what matters here What how do we define what good value is? We came up with this equation that says impact impact is the thing we really matter What impact is our work having on our customers and that impact is this combination of behaviors skills and opportunity Okay, the behavior skill and opportunity to come together Put that together and formula fix it all together the outcome of that is impact and the real outcome of that impact is happy customer So we then looked at this from two angles One of the angle is what's the leaders role in this the other angle is what the employees role in this So the leaders role is to coach behaviors To foster skill development and to create opportunities The employee's responsibility You know it's a part of a given take here the employees responsibility in the equation It's to evolve their behaviors based on the coaching To develop their skills based on the opportunities that have been fostered and Based on the created opportunity to seize those opportunities This is what Equation that really worked in terms of career development And then there was a really important aspect correct to graph is What this give and take and that's how does that change our coaching and mentoring role as leaders? The other thing we came to is the idea that with a promotion from higher expectations One of the things that I was always frustrated with doing performance reviews is all the people that was a high performer We've always seen the really experienced people. We thought oh, they're doing such great work And I came to realize but yeah, but don't we expect them to do great work every day And so in building this into the system that the expectations need to be reflected the fact of the level and you know Whatever level someone was that that was an expectation setting to change so we look at an example of this We have three three technologists here We have this young guy mark. We've got this you know a little bit older senior guy Bill and then you know very senior Steve Each one of these for the foot five core areas we have the bar changes, right? We have expectations that are higher at each one of these levels and finally at the end you know at the very very senior people We expect them to walk on water and Maybe say Steve does walk on water. We don't know It's important that we've got this across and it was one of the hardest things to get across my manager Setting that expectation high enough. We came to realize that we value career development over performance rating Talked about the stack ranking bell curves a lot of HR departments want to have bell curves. I want to fix sports rankings Sometimes you're forced to do it. We tried to de-tuffle things as much as possible So this was not the focus what we did what we cared about is career progression and the coaching and mentoring that goes along with making developing our employees So what did we do? All right So first of all we had to Go through the process of discovering the four responsibilities and also redefining our job This is what this is the what our job descriptions looked like earlier But one of the first things that Andrew did with which he made sure that you know to try to clean these up a little bit So when he looked at something like testing as I guess The it was really hard to follow you know what the expectations change with over time Now Andrew is a bit of an architect and talk to architect and I Know that architect in India is really important because I'm an architect and the role of architect really important here I know that I was managing a lot of teams here And what it took me a while in my career to realize what what was the core skill of architects? You know what I discovered so this is this is a key thing you got to learn What architects do is they're really good Every time you look at the before picture the lines cross And when the architect comes in a new picture the lines don't cross anymore that's Brilliant insight on what our but no, this is so what's what we did we made our line straight And it was it actually is a value to this because it helped us get some clarity as to what our job progression looked like But then we went back after really through this is a very interesting process of really refining this Taking a lot of what I have been doing for 20 years building on top of it the things that Andrew They're working on and building it out and then getting more people in our company involved in it So it came up to these five core responsibilities There's project, you know really focusing on them and making sure we had really clear clarity around what we're expecting at each level of the organization The example here of building quality and some software from the ground up And as one you came up with these things called key contributions to consider the things that we're looking for They provided us opportunity to describe some behaviors some outcomes that we're looking for are we seeing clean code? Are we seeing unit test integration tests? Are we seeing active reduction in technical depth? These are the behaviors. We're looking for we can have this View from a review perspective how this is happening also coaching conversations about how we'd like to see more of it We set expectations by level working down from you know associate level Respecting be done with direction down to you know the executive software engineer were expecting them to be visionary So we came up with descriptions of this we came up with wording You know more than just these were the short descriptions, but then we had longer descriptions for each of these Well, they came up with this framework. We started looking at Level setting and and drawing this as a visual for an employee. We could have this and go to look at a team this way But then we'd have them Okay, but this is the overall framework that we can look at is where are we at within the this and Put dots on this. I'll show you some examples with this a bit later We also work with HR we brought in Abby Britt who's our who's really engaged She's really heard about what we were doing. We try to sell her on why this is really important What we could use in terms of getting help from HR and over the time that I've been doing approaches like this I have done it with HR support I've also done it under the radar of HR where HR was not as supportive of forming And so it's white waffles back and forth. Those are how much it support I've had from HR but it's much easier and much better when you have HR on your side and In this case, we were able to really enroll her and she really Got it one of the things that help start with this is the heretic side because Yeah, I am with like a lean can band company and I'm showing a front slide. Why the hell is that going on? The reason is we were predominantly a scrum organization at the time We did have Fair amount of can ban implementation all the high performers were can ban implementation, of course, but What what works about this though is that? We were able to explain to Abby or HR representative Why are we worrying about setting these big goals beginning that we never make and we're setting goals all the time We have a process by which we're setting goals in the system So don't be afraid about this what we really care about is developing people the goals are going to be set on A regular basis through the iterations and the cycles and we've got the feedback that's already a place So this really helped sell her and she was really supportive Andrew was great. He wrote a bit. He wrote a manager's guide to this Which we've made available to other companies that want this And this is great because there was some specific coaching activities that we set up Some specific things that we cared about and it was really a guidance to our managers We also set up an employees guide. It was very short. You know, we didn't overdo this But we just started just right I think in terms of the helping people also you see to the comment earlier about Frequency coaching to your activity. We really emphasize the importance of Coaching and on one-on-ones and having having these regular interaction about where people stood So if we look to perform the devaluation model I showed you earlier that we had we're able to look at where are you at where each employee at within Evaluate it within the program and what we do about it So some places we might be really excelling and doing great in delivery but maybe we're not so great in innovation and and Initiative right so this was sort of this the time to the coaching canvas Through the dots and through where we're at relative to the expectations We can have the conversations about okay, you want to be promoted To be promoted you should be performing at this level. Okay, that's a conversation We can have it's a great conversation You can have that and the feedback is helping both the employer The manager who's saying in order to help develop you and get you to a higher performance level These are the things I'd like to see and then as the employee you're getting that direct feedback These are what I'm expected. So we're having that regular conversation and it's really helping the mentoring and coaching is the important part So if this is our level of expectations, you can see we have a few that are Performing above that level of expectations You think you want to try to really work on and that's where we focus You know the coaching on building up and bringing up the overall performance level So I'm going to go through an example here John the journeyman where we've looked at it and Sometimes we do this as an exercise, but due to time. I'm just going to go through it directly here So there's a case of John the journeyman's problem Maybe you know in the 40s or 50s have been working for a long time. They're doing good work It's been promoted. They're really sort of performing at the level of expectation of that job But then maybe they're not as doing so well in innovation and initiative Maybe they haven't kept up their skill set. Now. Is this an issue or not? This is a coaching conversation Maybe they're happy in that role. They're happy not not improved You know, they're sort of at the end of their career and it's not a big issue. It's what they want Okay, that's what the employer is up with the manager wants. They're comfortable with that. We have an agreement We have to work out. Is this right or not? On the other hand if John is thinking he's ready for a promotion He's got some work to do and so this is the conversations that we can have and it's framework for the conversation Really really has has shifted the game from from what had been performance evaluation to more performance mentoring So let's look at how how did things go with this rollout? But first of all, how did the managers like it? Pretty overwhelming a hundred percent said that they supported it over what we've been doing before And it's not that what we've been doing before was so bad And what's just sort of the same thing most people have been doing with trying to do smart objectives It just wasn't working that well Just changed the game to the manager the managers loved it because it was not only was it much simpler because everyone had Really identified the roles and responsibilities that we're expecting of them It was simpler, but it was also having much richer conversations. So managers loved it Question is how well it has been improving career conversations because that's what we're really trying to emphasize again very high support from from our management from the managers and This is the manager perception of how well their employees were liking it Again, very high. So this is one side. This is the manager perception, which is great We also needed to figure out well if we're asking managers how they think their employees like it better ask the colleagues and employees what they really thought about it as well and colleague feedback also very positive the 73% supported it There's someone better or much better only a few who thought it was much worse. So Generally feeling pretty good about it compared to what we've been doing This was something for us to look at from an improvement the manager thought they were doing a great job at Improving career conversations and it was better 57% but this is one we wanted to try to grow and improve make this bring some of the Neutrals over into the more somewhat helpful and very helpful and with regard to the career development very important part and And I think this was also quite positive is that employees knew what was expected of them in order to get their promotions So that was a big big improvement So then we look at the overall program after we pulled it out for a year We inspected and adapted and part of this inspecting and adapting happened really before we even rolled it out We were relatively developing it So come a couple of things we had challenges integrating with the HR system the HR The HR approach to performance reviews was emphasizing performance over career growth So we had to sort of fit it in into the radar and that's we're having HR support was really good Because we were able to emphasize the importance of the career growth and the performance management piece of it Was was the emphasize so we tried to fit it But the tool itself and the the mindset in HR was something we had to work with The HR tool was not particularly good I don't know of any good HR tool But one of the big problems is is it we wanted to have a very fine-grained ability of like Decimal numbers of 3.1 or 3.2. We wanted it on a scale where it was at Where's the HR system was integers of 1 2 3 4 5? Fourth fit so that was a bit we ended up having to do some reverse engineering in order to get get the Numbers to work out which is a bit more trouble than than I would have liked to have but these are the challenges You face and trying to fit into Existing systems, but they are always a work around the system does have the ability to You can't it as long as you have the intent of what you're trying to get out of it That's an important part and then you you work back under Into the system and figure out how to make it get done There was a lot of redundancies in paperwork Partially because of the HR system and so when yeah, but again, we dealt with it We preferred having the redundant paperwork to get the work done because the result was so much better And we discovered there were By doing the exercise and we kind of pilot the other thing we discovered once we rolled this out In our organization software development We found a number of other organizations over what are you doing because they were all struggling with the same problem So they came to us or for advice on how to implement it with in non software development So that was another good thing We were finding the structure a little bit in order to add both Behavior and impact initially we just had behaviors, but we needed to have both both sides of the equation on behavior And then we also went beyond software development initially It was just to talk about Well first we extended it to all the goals within the development team We also we also went and extended managers and when I had done this in the previous 20 years I would use the same approach to talk sort of all knowledge workers including the leaders And I found it fairly robust in dealing with that because it was the same type of thing So same five areas really apply well across the board. What we did find out as we felt Done deeper into it with leadership roles was the leadership roles were a little different and so we did end up coming up with a slightly different approach on leadership to emphasize a little bit just for that You know these we use the sort of the same basic ideas, but then extended it to Leadership roles high quality software for both both sides of the equation It was a little bit different extent, but the same for value. What are we doing in terms of driving quality? So do performance reviews have to suck? I Don't think so. I think you can actually have very good We value feedback and we value performance management performance mentoring and coaching That can be done and you can build the important part is to build a structure and build an environment where people feel that feedback is valuable and helping the employer helping the employer to build an electrical fastly by helping develop careers and Honoring the feedback of helping the employee know what's expected of them from a career-development The whole HR system Was sort of came in from the market side the other side of the organization's merch, but this has survived So it's proven to be robust and provided value on both sides Really have found value in the system So with that not just my contact information slides will be available again, Andrew's contact information beyond that as well and Then since I'm now with the being canned and just I'm available the rest of the week We talk about we want to talk about performance reviews We'd like to talk about what we're doing some of the new exciting things you have going on in the world of Canada Love to talk to you that Any questions Yeah, look, yeah Yeah, so a lot of that is a cultural thing So you have to build that that's that the culture values that feed that and balance that development The IHS culture is one of very very much one of Engaging employees we ran a customer engaged in college engagement survey And so it's something that was really sort of ingrained in the culture. So that was a big part of it I think a lot of it also came from support from the top. So I was running my group and And I was I wasn't sure coming in how Recepted my management team would be to it And so I just threw it out on table that all they loved it because they just have been struggling so much But the system wasn't worth it. And so they just said, oh, great I haven't know how to do it. You're giving me a bit of a recipe even though it's a wide open recipe We're getting recipes for how to do this. So I think the key is getting that volume and support and Having that environment that really respects that Relationship and the value that we're trying to do this So part of that was me coming in to sell my manager. I value I value this And we really care about mentoring and developing work on employees and We had that also throughout the rest of the world the rest of the organization had a similar enough If you come in and try to do this in an environment that doesn't have that You could easily end up with what you're saying You can come up with a system and it fails because you don't have you don't have the buy-in That this is anything but a setback So Yeah, we did this for about 600 people so it was again And I think that's what led to take it a little bit long a little bit larger than that And there was the interest in taking even further than that. But yeah, it wasn't at that level of fail. And so do you think What and this is we're also having HR buy-in helps with a lot too Because a lot of times what happened Before I was doing it on a very much smaller scale you fifty to a hundred people and It went a little bit longer when I was a larger one I had a short period of time that I had really good support from HR But then HR chipped it out and they were sort of back into the old way and so I just a win at the rate I continued to do my thing and It worked, but I didn't have the impact that I had until I really have a bottle support and part of it also I started a role with other managers you parallel managers and peers that were Getting them engaged. So once I had a team of people doing the similar thing So you sort of build it out and start again, you can do this without HR support locally and And get some of the value it's much better to have the broader Which is we still had to come up with rating so we had to do we basically backfire to get rating so we And now we find the problem that is one of the side effects I said that the HR system still viewed it at a rating even though our emphasis was on performance development and so This is one of those bundling problems that we couldn't get around so we tried to do the best we could with the system that we've had and part of that was also I left we were trying to see if you could enroll HR and helping Get over that hurdle and I left before that battle with thought and on the same time But that's not going to change because the new HR role came into the new organization So I don't know how that went. I had a chance to follow up with Andrew on but yeah So what we did even though we had to do it because we had this Imposed bundling that had to happen. We ended up coming up with performance rating out of the system And it was adequately I would have preferred to change that and be tough Yeah Well, there can be a fact ranking and in our case we sort of fact ranking but not quite a fact I think that yeah, there was a distribution Yeah Yeah, and so the thing is you want to be you want to We always use these what we call the bulletin board cat Which is if we put the fruit we have this idea that not necessary things like if we did get it I've never even been out on the bulletin board ever when fall everything we have radical transparency wouldn't be a problem And so that was the guidance guidance that I gave to my managers is really do this as best as can to this and that If this was radically transparent where the reviews were where everything is we wouldn't see a bad about So There's couple of things that come from this approach is one is instead of this idea that I have a rating that rating relates to some bonus or some salary increase What comes out of this is where some of them add in their journey from the level they're at the next one And we have decent benchmark information about what pay should be a given level So the thing is what we've done is hide this much more closely to our performance of what that is to our Promotion perspective where are you adding your your journey to promotion and that gives us a much better story to have with the with regards to where they're at because you're going to compare the benchmarking for that same level so this is just helps us in sort of scaling our Rewards to what what the market is today So it's a little bit it's trying again to tie it to what matters not to some other very well I think it's working for a wonderful stuff. There's super stuff for what really where are they at in the journey? What is it relative? Where should they be relative to the skills that we have something that is mentioned? Yeah, you mentioned something really good, but this is an ongoing conversation You should not be surprised at the end right and that's what we know when you just get in this big batch mode of Have these conversations once a year people are surprised which is why The fearful of what's gonna come up and the distance you know that and they don't really know what You're having regular conversations and having a prick and the other thing that this is that having this you have a framework for Conversation on an ongoing basis. Well, what about this is what about that area? Whereas and I think what what we find otherwise Without this a lot of our one-on-one conversations are much more tactical They're much more about what happened with us or why your project they've done But and and that's important those conversations what does he really looking for career guidance that's an ongoing much more strategic Conversation in this framework at least give you means Yeah, yeah, so you probably can't eliminate it. It's probably gonna be there This is you get back to that thought I said about Opportunities this is about the leader creating opportunities so that that's work and the problem we face is it oftentimes High-grade we say the palace is so wonderful. I want to build the next palace and the next house and next house and the Bricks, you know, making building the house doesn't get that opportunity So part of this is about cultivating those opportunities Recognizing so it is great point to bring up. Well, we're all Understand how much value is being done To some extent this is important that we have a lot of houses out there that we have a path But the power is what looks so beautiful when we're full of friends. So we have to hope that's a book that the leadership Help us so yeah, so you have team activities It's one of the Portland's one of the main reasons we include teamwork as a key element. What are you doing? Ultimately, what I'm asking the question is what are you doing to make your team better? And so if you could actually ask that for every single one of those things What are you doing to make your team better at the level so you have an individual role in making the team better at the level You have an individual role in making your team better at the business. You have an individual role in making your team a better team So we I I've never found that part the looking at a team Respecting the power of the team and the importance of the team yet still identifying the individual Contributions that that each person was making to making that team better And the other thing you can do is you can also engage the team in that same conversation. They know to so it's There are great ways to get feedback across the board Usually that I found that that wasn't the hard part The hard part was just helping people understand what was expected of them and how could they how could they take ownership of their career And what their responsibility for that and then giving the guidance to take that on so that we create that mentoring relationship at the leader Anything else? Let's talk about