 Okay, welcome everyone. We're very glad to have you joining us for what's going to be a great conversation with a truly truly great author David Morel. I'm Dan. I am the Director of Development and Programming for the Bedford Playhouse. I can speak. We're very glad we're able to do this virtual programming as part of our virtual Playhouse series. Although we're closed for now We are Committed to bringing you programming of this nature and keeping our community engaged and connected So we realize these are difficult times and we hope if you enjoy tonight and you're able Please take a moment before you turn off your device to visit our website, which is www.bedfordplayhouse.org And consider please making a donation to help us through while our doors are closed. It's tax-deductible It's a great way to help us support the community and bring culture and Programming and everything we could try to do while our doors were open in this new reality There's a ways to give link on the side, which you can click on. You might also want to consider becoming a member that membership has benefits such as discounts on programs and films and invitations for upcoming events. We have a special members only Program happening a week from tomorrow, which is an interview with a great screenwriter named John Bercato We are also doing curbside concessions Tomorrow, there's still time to order to help you get you through your weekend Popcorn, candy, drinks, different packages are available. That's all on our website and members get discounts on that too So thank you again for attending. That was the commercial and now for the program Very very thrilled to have David Morrell with us tonight. He is Certainly well known for many of his books. He was from originally Kitchener, Ontario, Canada And in 1960 at the age of 17 he became a fan of the classic TV series Route 66 Some of you may remember that and the scripts combined with the action and ideas impressed him so much He decided to become a writer so he moved to the United States to study at Penn State and we received his MA and PhD in American literature First blood which is considered the father of modern Action novels was published in 1972 while he was a professor at the English department at the University of Iowa And he taught American literature there from 1970 to 1986 He's written many other novels including the spy trilogy the Brotherhood of the Rose the fraternity of the stone And the League of Night and Fog He's the author of more than 30 books all together including the naked edge creepers the spy who came for Christmas And especially near and dear to my heart. He's written some comic book series featuring characters like Captain America and Spider-Man and Wolverine He's a co-founder of the International Thriller Writers Organization He's an honorary lifetime member of the Special Operations Association and the Association of Intelligence Officers He's been trained in firearms hostage negotiation executive protection numerous other action skills that he describes in his novels, so he knows from whence he speaks His latest novels murder is a fine art Inspector of the dead and ruler of the night are Victorian mystery thrillers that explore the world of 1850s London He's an Edgar Anthony thriller and Arthur Ellis finalist a Nero and the cavity winner and a three-time recipient of the Distinguished Bram Stoker Award from the horror writers Association He's gotten the prestigious career achievement thriller master award from the International Thriller Writers Organization And so I'm very very pleased to welcome David Morel to our virtual playhouse There hey here, I am how are you but through the magic of virtual reality here. I am that's right I should just quickly mention to all of our attendees that if you are on your laptop There's a Q&A button that should be at the bottom of your screen if at any point you'd like to post a question We will pose it to David At some point during the evening. He might actually cover it before that, but please feel free to at any point ask a question We're gonna start off with a couple of questions that I think everybody's going to be Fascinated to hear and so the first question I have for you David Is it true that Stephen King used first blood as a text when he taught creative writing at the University of Maine? It is true. Steve in 1978 taught creative writing at fiction writing at the University of Maine and He had two texts one was first blood and the other was double indemnity by James M. Kane and the Well, plus there's to me this is interesting technically because Kane is one of the people I learned from between Double indemnity and oh come on the famous one help always rings twice the postman always rings twice I Learned when you read those books the technique is so upfront that It's it's by osmosis almost that you can absorb the what the way he writes But he wasn't quite Stephen King at that point yet, right? Well, he'd know he'd published Salem's lot I'm pretty sure he published the shining So but he wasn't I mean it became for for his career we became friends from about 1980 to about 1995 we were we were we were close And talked often and we took some road trips together and things like that after I don't want to make a mystery of it at 1995 his career went so high and and so wide that The kinds of social relationships he had before that simply, you know and just hanging around with people it wasn't possible in the same way so But he used to send me first draft Type scripts so I had type scripts of it and misery in the dark half and things like that and recently With his permission, although I did own the manuscripts These were auctioned for a children's cancer fund Research cancer fund in the name of my son and my granddaughter who died from cancer. So we We collected like $60,000 From the manuscripts that he had given me over the years. So I thought that was pretty cool That's pretty cool. All right. Well enough about Stephen King. Let's talk about you I wanted to ask you when we talked briefly yesterday. You had mentioned that when you were I guess Working on the first draft of first blood or around you were about to finish it and you were struck by a few Historical events that were occurring at the time. Can you can you speak to that a little bit? This is 1970-ish. Yeah, no, I know what you're referring to and actually it's the Kent State shootings in 1970 in May You know in May it was 50 years ago but It the impetus for the book actually for first blood goes back to 68 first blood is a is a kind of an allegory. It's about the Account my version of what would happen if the Vietnam War came home to America and the deep violent divides that separated America Were played out in this mini war So Rambo represented a disaffected I mean, it's almost as if he went to war He came back hating what he'd been through and became for those of people who from those days will recognize as students for a Democratic society and how extreme they were and whereas the police officer would then represent the other side If we look at say what happened at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 68 where we had a riot on the streets outside the convention and I was as a Canadian struck by the By what I thought was going to be a civil war it was it was that violent unless anybody think I'm exaggerating in 1968 There weren't 10 riots. There weren't one riots 20 riots. There weren't 50 riots. There were several hundred riots most of them related well all of them related either to the war or toward racial issues and The racial issues pertain to the war because an undue proportion of blacks were drafted to Vietnam because they couldn't get education to the firm it's and to this day, there are some cities such as Detroit Gary, Indiana parts of Los Angeles and so on who never recovered from those riots And I was watching them on TV On news and I was struck that these it was almost as if if we closed if we if we shut off the sound It was like we were watching a firefight in vietnam or if Or on the other hand if we looked at the firefight in vietnam it was almost like I mean think of it national guardsmen were patrolling american streets that were ablaze and in cars were ablaze and and businesses had been had been trashed and and moving forward to the Kent state event in may of 1970 and I I want to couch this in a way that's similar to the novel If first blood tries to balance the two violent opposing forces that were taking place in america at that time Kent state what happened there sort of illustrates that we have students demonstrating against the war Rocks were thrown there on the other hand. We have a national guardsman with um Loaded weapons And whatever the hell happened shots were fired students were wounded students were killed So depending on where you're coming from at this event There are some people who will say well those students asked for it And there'll be some people who say those guardsmen should never have headlight ammunition and should never have fired We can go around that but the novel was basically Dealing with those issues the movie Takes the book in a different direction. It's the same plot, but it reinterprets the story because a movie in 1982 isn't going to be relevant to 1972 when the book came out Right, so we'll talk about the movie in a few minutes Um with regard to the character of Rambo, which you know has become Such an iconic character. I think certainly Almost if not on the same level as James Bond, maybe Did that surprise you? I mean did you have anybody was there anybody in mind specifically that you were basing the character on or was it Just sort of a compilation of out of your imagination No, I had I had somebody very definitely in mind and he was otty murphy Who was america's most decorated soldier from world war two? um and what otty murphy did in combat Makes anything Rambo in my novel or on the screen I did uh to be um I mean it just doesn't compare the the citation for murphy's middle of honor is Is harrowing I just It's impossible to imagine someone doing that murphy and remember i'm of of the generation where in my youth I watched otty murphy in westerns in theaters And I had no idea that he'd been a soldier until I saw Him playing himself. I love the meta on this murphy playing himself in a Movie based upon a book that he supposedly wrote or at least endorsed to Helen back And and i'm thinking oh This guy did all this in real life as well as what he did in the westerns And if you look at murphy's westerns um, probably the the the best of the smaller budgets is something called no name on the bullet Where murphy all dressed in black rides into a town And simply by being in the town causes everybody to go crazy The the guilty all start. They're sure he's there to shoot them Uh, I mean and all he does for most of the movie is sit on a chair Outside a rooming house But the power of this babyface texan to radiate lethal intent Is what made him a movie stars. He made a movies too the unforgiven for example with burlankister and and gene simmons But uh, anyhow, he fascinated me he was he was uh charged with um Uh, he he he he wasn't found guilty, but he had to go to court. He had pistol whipped A man who he said it overcharged To train the dog of a friend of his There there are stories of him on set in a system director Bullying his female costar making her cry and murphy coming over to him and saying if you do that again, I'll kill you And if you the word that people had Knowing murphy was that you could see in his eyes. He meant it So the where this relates to rambo is that murphy suffered from what we now call post traumatic stress disorder And he had nightmares from the war. He had trouble sleeping. He kept a 45 A semi-automatic under his pillow He woke up in the night thinking he was still at war shooting And when he was on location it was a bit of a problem because they were renting rooms and they'd have to move the The pictures on the wall around to disguise the bullet holes and so my My thought about this was if I was going to bring the war home Who who would Why not pretend it was Audi murphy coming back from vietnam? Now let's do another time travel here My mustache was grown in 1968 as part of my research and People who lived at that time know what i'm talking about People who didn't might think i'm exaggerating, but I am not If you had facial hair or long hair You were an automatic target for Abuse from the authorities. I could not walk down the street Without a police officer for example making rude remarks to me The The reason I grew the mustache I could have I could have gone farther, but i'm canadian So I you know to me this was a protest And the what I was doing was imagining what if rambo came back from the war and what if he Became sort of like a hippie What if he dropped out and wandered across the united states to see What the country was like and what he'd been fighting for and Based upon a real event in new mexico. I live in new mexico and this happened in new mexico A group of of hippies traveling through and I no longer remember the name of the community We're stopped for vagrancy. We're shaved We're trimmed bald And we're kicked out of town And this stayed in my mind and I thought well, let's say otty murphy came back from vietnam Grew a beard grew long hair Wanted around he was picked up by the police. He was shaved. He was made bald. What would otty do And that is rambo And uh, while most people who know the film know rambo as kind of the main character with The police chief is a secondary character In the novel the two characters have equal weight and there were many reviewers at the time who felt that rambo was the bad guy At what just as some thought the police officer was with neither that was my intention They're both there are no antagonists in this. They're both Well, there are they're both antagonists and they're both Protagonists and so the the point of the novel was to use an action book and all the All the readership you get in that genre in order to analyze without Talking about the war without talking about anything that was going on in american society at the time but nonetheless to analyze that particular terrifying moment in american history So you will we'll talk a little bit about the doing series in the book in the film in a minute But um, I we had one question that was submitted in advance for you Um, which I understand there's an interesting story about how you found out that the book had been optioned Um, is that is that true? Well, let's think about this. Uh, there were two There's there's a story, but i'm not sure That question will go to it The first person to option the book was stanley kramer Uh, and stanley god bless him. I I admire his work He didn't come through with the money We we had given up the option. He had it and six months passed by and he got in touch and said Um, it's not going to happen. So my publisher had already taken out ads Made by to be made by stanley kramer I have a sense of humor about all this. I can't stop laughing sometimes so, uh a producer named laurence turman who had Uh co-produced the graduate Uh was in a bookstore in beberley hills and he found the book And as he paged through he said This is a movie and he went to columbia pictures where richard brooks Uh was assigned to write and directed And I I had the honor of actually being flown out to meet with richard brooks. I I admire him greatly Particularly as westerns And I spent an afternoon in his home and we didn't quite see eye to eye on the movie and the next thing I knew I was on a Imagine I was this young professor and we didn't see I richard brooks and I did not see eye to eye Can you imagine? So the next thing I knew I was on a flight back to iowa city where I where I taught Uh brooks worked on the picture for a year. I do not know what happened, but columbia sold it to water brothers And uh, there were many rumors that for example, marty rit was going to direct with paul newman playing the police chief Um, I have no way of knowing that for sure, but I do know In conversation, I personally had with sydney polyp that sydney And a favorite of mine was going to direct with steve mcqueen as rambo And they were a few months away from shooting when somebody pointed out the obvious Which was that steve was in his mid 40s in 1975 when the shooting would have occurred And there were no 45 year old vietnam veterans in 1975 It was a young person's war unlike the recent wars in iraq and afghanistan Which tended to have people in their 30s and 40s and even their 50s So that dropped out and then it went to another um It went to another studio and i'm a little little uncertain about how the rights went back and forth, but carol co A distributor and ruvania and mario cosar um Were talking to ted kachev About him working for them and they said ted if you had to make a movie What would you really want to do and he said i worked on first blood at warner And that's what i'd like to do so they acquired the property for ted and then move forward So, uh, you know from from what i've read and i've seen some of your comments about it Unlike some other authors like steve and king, um, you you like the film, right? I do came out came out really well. Um, which seems a little unusual. Um What would you say was the most um, I guess, uh Interesting part of the initial experience of having because you did not write the screenplay. No, uh, it was just It was you just sold the basic of the rights to the to the film Uh to be adapted. Um Was it the relationship with the producers? Was it uh, what was what? Uh, what puts you at ease about the adaptation? Well, um, the There are a couple of funny stories here. This is a there's a there's an interesting one producers do not phone novelists Uh, I mean if if if the producer were to phone a novelist, it's they'd phone steven king, right? But I was young and innocent and one day I did get a call from andrew vanu who might call andy Um, and over the years we had many many conversations which never happens with with production teams And the first time I heard from andy is he said we're your novelist set in kentucky Um, and we're going to move it. We're going to shoot it in the pacific. We're going to shoot it in canada and doubling for the pacific northwest and, uh, Imagine anybody a producer asking the novelist this question. Is there a reason Why we couldn't do this? He said we we get a better money advantage if we're in canada. We can the dollar will go farther and we got grants and things like that But we don't want to go up there and find out we can't make the movie because there's something in the plot that Necessitates kentucky. So do we have a problem? I said go right ahead. There's not a problem And so he and I often talked that way if he had you know questions about this or that I really he's no longer with us. But I really I I like mario, but I didn't speak as much to mario as I did to andy and Anyhow, uh, the glamour of the movie world, uh, so I was a young professor married to children still married the The I what I wanted to do I had to see the movie because people were going to interview me. So Uh, uh, a ryan, which was the distributor for carol co Said well, we're going to show it to you on a wednesday afternoon at this theater and it opens on friday so, uh I said this is great. I'll invite our friends And I'll pay for the popcorn and the drinks and the jujubes and all that stuff and we'll just have a great time And a ryan said there's no way that's going to happen We're only going to allow you your wife and your two children to see this movie on on this wednesday afternoon and I thought Do they need the ticket sales that much? That they can't have you know a dozen people come in the afternoon. So the four of us This was not theaters as they are now. This was a huge theater and we go in Two o'clock on a wednesday afternoon sit down The kids didn't want to sit with us. So they you know, gee what a shock and the movie starts and Well, I was overwhelmed. I mean, this was a huge screen and here comes sylvester walking down through the trees and I mean it was just Amazing. So we all walked out. I still remember the feeling of what leaving the theater And the sunlight that afternoon as reality comes back and I didn't know what I'd seen It was the same, but it was different and I'm not complaining about that And so I went home and I had a friend Well, who taught also in the english department at the university of Iowa. So he found and he said What'd you think of the movie and I said I the four of us sitting in this cavernous theater I have no idea and he said, well, let me ask it a different way You'd know if it was bad, right? I said, oh, it's not bad that much, I know so Uh, I had made friends with the manager because we were there that afternoon the five of us with the manager and the projectionist And I made friends with him. He said you come opening night friday And he said I'll set I'll have this seat that that it'll say reserved so nobody can sit there You come early you you you go into the go into my office because we don't want to you know make this artificial And then the movie starts you come out and sit there and watch the reaction. So okay, I did that And things are moving along, you know, it's a lyrical opening and we have to have Ram will be sympathetic. So one of the guys he was with in vietnam died from age and orange, which is not in the novel and and then the fight starts in The jail and people were screaming and yelling and shoving each other I mean it was like almost as if the fight were going on in the theater And I thought wow, this is going to be a huge movie And indeed it was and but I never got over sitting there in that back. I mean snuck out and sitting there And watching their the reactions to the to the film What um, what was your relationship like? Well, so that's just alone. He has he has a screenwriting credit on the film Yes, he does. So what were your conversations with him like? I didn't have any with the slide for the first film Or for the second one And which isn't unusual the there was no reason to but As the movies continued He and I talked increasingly And For the I'm often asked if I thought of anybody who could have been the actor portraying Rambo and we remember 1972 Sylvester did not have the career yet Um, and I had in mind perhaps chris christofferson Uh, who was uh, who had that shaggy bearded Long hair hippie look and and did eventually make an action movie like pad carat and billy the kid Although he didn't have the the beard in that movie. Um, but um You know times change and I wasn't married to that concept. I just thought it was interesting and um I first met uh, sylvester At mgm I was out there doing something and somebody said well, you've never met sly and I said no and they said oh Well, we'll send you over to mgm. So he was making a rocky over there. I forget which which what number it was and so I went over and and we said hello and um The issue here is that when I Hear Rambo It's become so much a part of the culture that it takes me perhaps a second or two To say hey, that's my guy And I said that to sylvester and he said the same thing back to me That he'd be going someplace and doing something and they'd be talking about Rambo and it took him a moment To to remember he played Rambo on the screen. I thought that was a you know, very interesting conversation But as as time marks done. I was on the set for Rambo three in israel and also in yuma, arizona and um We talked often there and over the years since then we've talked often on the phone Um, we're not I've never gone to dinner with him. So I that's one of my Kind of a baselines for whether you're a friend or not is if you've eaten meals with somebody but We've certainly had long long conversations over the years on the on the phone And what about some of the other cast members like richard crena and uh, brian danie who just passed away Did you ever have Richard crena certainly was in a couple of the films? Well, I I I live in Santa Fe, new mexico and brian danie. He lived in new mexico In Santa Fe also in in the Mid-90s, so I I sort of we weren't close But I did have conversations with a nice man as big in person as he is on the screen Very smart obviously a gifted actor and you know that the the script Doesn't the character isn't on the screen the way it is and I I'm not complaining here But apples and oranges, but in the novel Tiesel gets half the book Is the the the novel alternates viewpoints Tiesel Rambo Tiesel Rambo Tiesel Rambo because I don't want the reader to take sides I want the reader to say yeah, this guy is right that guy's right Oh, maybe this guy's right. No, that guy's right And the movie doesn't do that the movie chooses Rambo as the guy Um, so brian didn't have a lot. He didn't have he fills the screen, but he does not have a lot of screen time Uh, and so he used his genius as an actor in order to dominate the scenes that he had Um, but I had many conversations with richard crena Uh, particularly Um, uh in in uh in in israel He and I spoke at length a couple of times and We spoke on the phone and also we got to spend a day together and this again is so crazy about How novelists are are not treated when rambo three premiered debuted Whatever the word would be for a for a film And again, this this is impossible to imagine the distributor Uh tri star in this case decided that Sly would represent the film that richard crena would represent the film and that I would represent the film So we were the three people at the press junket Doing doing all the interviews and that was mighty interesting and uh, I didn't get a chance to spend much time With sly at that occasion, but I spent a lot of time with richard and richard was just an amazing person he was He was generous and kind and uh, we we were we were in a hotel Coming down on an elevator to go to the junket and as we came out of the elevator. There was a man was little boy And the little I cannot remember what the little boy idolized richard richard was in everything So what he what he idolized richard for being in? but he he Richard took one look at the kid and the kid said, oh, there's richard crena Went out. We were we were on the way. We had journalists and all instead He just stopped everything went over to the kid. He was started talking to him And if my memory serves they had a camera and I took a picture of the father and richard And the and the boy and that really really stuck with me and He he was in Body heat, of course, you know, he was only five minutes. He didn't like it when I when I talked this way Um, because you know, he's a movie star and so five minutes in body heat it's in is in a certain way negligible, but I told him uh, several times that I didn't think that body heat would have worked if he hadn't been the husband uh, that the menace the quiet menace that he he exuded in a in a very short scene in a restaurant Showed why he had to be killed if the plot was going to be moved forward and uh, but he didn't like me He didn't like me saying that. Well, there is uh, you you did tell me a very interesting little piece of trivia He was not the original actor cast. He was not He was not Kirk Douglas was cast as uh, as uh, trumpman And went to british columbia. He was in costume. There are uh, there's artwork of him in costume That was published in hollywood reporter And um, there's some mystery here He he he was there apparently from monday through friday And whatever happened, you know, the old famous creative differences. Um, and I admire kirk douglas Uh, as much as anybody so I'm I'm not interested in trying to find some negative reason why he would have left Uh, but he left And that was on a friday afternoon and they had shooting to do one day those those cameras were going to roll So then stall master who was the casting director for uh, the film And who also lived here in santa fe for a time and whom I had conversations with Told me that his his stressful weekend that he had to find a replacement for kirk douglas and get him on set monday morning in canada and uh, and settled on richard crena because You could say he's the ultimate professional That I mean he'd been an actor from when he was you know, a little little little kid And he'd been in everything comedy drama All kinds of different genres and if there was anybody who was going to step in Not having barely had time to read the script, but a couple of times and step in and and Exude the confidence that he does in the role. It was it was richard and and uh, I don't know I just admired the guy a lot. It's hard to picture kirk douglas playing the role unless you say it Well, it would have been different. Uh, gene hackman at one time was was talked about I saw this in the trades Was going to be the brian danyi role So, I mean, you know these things go in different ways and and who knows why Actors are or not in the in the role, but um, I mean Yes, it is richard is so good in the role so So quietly lethal And at the same time kind of paternalistic toward this person he created that uh, it's uh I don't know. It's it's he did very well Uh, so, you know, you've touched uh a little bit on about some of the differences between the film and the book um, and you know the location and The the character of the police chief, uh, you know taking sort of a backseat to rambo um, I think enough time has passed that we don't necessarily have to say spoiler alert, uh, but You talk about I know that some people have have the the ending of the book versus the ending of the film uh Takes creates a little bit of a created at least a little later on when you were working on some of the other novelizations a little bit of an issue well Yeah, uh, there there are differences. Um We we discussed kentucky becomes the pacific northwest um Yeah, spoiler alert whatever rambo dies at the end of the novel just as the police chief dies at the end of the novel and The person who kills rambo is troutman troutman shoots him it takes his head off with a shotgun And this is part of the allegory that there are no winners in the system If there is a winner, it's the system the system that creates rambo destroyed him uh, so, uh, the first cut of the film for audiences In that cut rambo died Uh, and if you those of you who maybe have a blu-ray or even some of the older dvds There is footage of that that's been released rambo commits suicide He and troutman are talking troutman has a gun rambo grabs the gun and shoots himself in The test audience and in las vegas nevada Audiences were not happy. Um, they'd been sort of conditioned about rocky and sly and triumph and They cheered for him And now he was dead and they were not happy Uh, and ted kachev in some recorded interviews had some funny stories about how they were threatening to belinch him And the audience was and so andy and mario um told me That they had not intended sequels up until They had to reshoot the ending And then when the film was a hit they said, oh wow, we can actually make more of these movies. It was not in the plan Uh, so that's that's a significant difference. Uh, the the novel has much more of teasel and and and important in terms of the different train tracks of interpretations In the novel rambo is young enough to be teasels or put it another way Teasel is old enough to be rambo's father Teasel was a war hero in korea He was he knew about conventional war and he thought as a consequence He knew how to handle somebody in the mountains who was waging guerrilla war But obviously he didn't So to me teasel represented if we like an eisenhower republican attitude if rambo represented a disaffected kind of Students for a democratic society kind of person So we had uh the generation conflict, which was uh something very important at the time the the password the byword for students was don't trust anybody over 30 and Clearly teasel was far older than that So what we have is father son in conflict in the novel in the movie. They're the same age So now it's brothers at war and that in turn adds a different kind of uh psychological dynamic to it and in terms of the war The only sign we get that that teasel was in combat is very briefly when he sits behind his desk At a moment of tension the the camera reveals a display of medals of military medals behind him on the wall Leaning against the wall. So there, you know, there are Different way different changes, but the the big change was from 72 to 82 The change was that my rambo was furious That he had gone over there and what happened to him and what he discovered about himself that he was good at killing so angered him That uh, he was primed when the police officer decided he didn't like the looks of it Uh, so that's the novel but by 1982 it's a whole different world And what what happens with rambo in the movie is that he's not uh He's not furious. He's a victim Uh, and that difference might account where the why there were 26 scripts before this picture got made Because the united states was changing so fast from 72 to 82 Uh Speaking of the scripts, you know, you said that producers don't normally talk to novelists, but your producers did Um, did you have do you have script approval in your contract? Or was there any arrangement? Was there anything of fish that they have to run these changes by you or did they do it because they were nice guys If you walk on water you get script approval. Otherwise you do not Uh, jd, uh, uh, rallying had, um, uh, script approval. I'm told of I I'd have to rack my brain to think of the novelist who had script approval apart from her Maybe steve kink steven king does I have no idea But uh, no when you sell the rights That is an act of faith that someone will actually make a movie I know some people who have who've been uh, you know, who overjoyed if their novel sells But then I say to myself, okay, let's wait if if the movie gets made. What's it going to be like? You might wish that movie was never made uh, but Andy and mario knew how to bring together. I mean you'd be a ted ted kache if you get, um Jerry goldsmith. I mean where would where would first blood be without jerry goldsmith's music? um The cinematography, uh, I'm I'm drawing a blank. I think it's urn slaslo Um, uh Remarkably well photographed film. I mean there the whole thing Just is is filled with quality and um, so I I have I have no complaints about the film But interestingly enough since you you wrote the novelizations for the next two films the novel So you were basing those on scripts that someone else had written Yes, so so you were uh, what was it like to be adapting work based on your character that didn't originate See, this gets so meta. I'm I'm I'm such a fan of once upon a time in hollywood, you know and all the meta stuff I mean this whole experience got very meta. So I was a professor. So I love I love talking this way So this is this is what happened. Um Andy phoned me and said we would like to have a novelization for rambo 2 Uh, and As it happens, you're the only one me david the only one who could write the novelization because it's in my contract When I sold the rights. I'm the only one who can write novels about rambo Now at the time novelizations were a big deal, uh, the uh, uh, you The vhs rental system had not yet been established Certainly dvds didn't exist and and lord. No streaming didn't exist. So if you want it to re-experience a favorite Movie you bought the novelization So the novelization then mostly had to be what I called the author as photocopier because the the production company would would In the contract to the novelizer say you can't change anything You must use the dialogue as written. You must use the plot as written All you can do is describe the way people look and that's got to look like the people in the movie And describe the locations in the movie and put in a bunch of thoughts and emotions Uh, and I I just wasn't interested. I I you know, it isn't that wasn't a creative thing for me but um Andy sent me uh, this is in the days of uh, you of of fedex when it first started and I was getting ready to go teach it It's eight o'clock in the morning and The doorbell rang and here's a fedex guy and he's got He's got a package which I open it up and it's a videotape and I put it in and it's the scene Uh, and he was so smart. It's the scene where rambo and the helicopter arrives with jerry goldsmith's movie or music Blasting away for rambo two and he he shoots all the watch towers and he lands and he jumps out with the Uh, uh with the machine gun and and I I remember thinking this is going to be a big movie So he called me again and he said You sure you don't want to do this. You really should you I we think you want to be associated with this We think that it would be good for everybody So I said, but here's the thing. It's an 86 page script But we're talking now about rambo two. I just emphasize that 86 page script, which is not long Uh, average script maybe 115 pages um, and It would had a lot of white space with lines like rambo jumps up and shoots this guy rambo jumps up and shoots that guy And I said and I I said if I'm going to do this, I have to make changes Uh, for example, um In the movie, there's a passing line that says this is the prisoner of war camp That he escaped from that rambo escaped from So in real life, I sort of think I kind of suspect that the man going back to the prisoner of war camp that he escaped from Might have a little reflection on this Might have sort of some emotions Which are not in the movie and I don't mean to sound like I don't like the movie. It's a hell of a lot of fun But there are let us say parts that might have been amplified And and that was one so I said andy I you know that's I would play that up and there's some other things I would play up But even then I'm not sure I just don't know if I have enough for a book Is there anything you can help me with and he said well, I don't know if there'd be any help, but there is the James Cameron script So we have this v. James Cameron v. James Cameron, but he wasn't v. James Cameron yet I knew him from Terminator the first one right, but he hadn't done terminator two, which was a carol copicture And you know, he hadn't been he isn't yet James Cameron He's sort of graduated from the Roger Corman school of you know of of filmmaking And but I knew who Cameron was and I said there's a script that Cameron did and he said yeah We decided not to use it. It was too dark. Well Now now we're talking too dark. I I have to read this script and indeed the The picture would have started with Troutman getting out of a of a military of a government vehicle and entering a mental institution and going through various layers of the mental institution and different people in different states of of You know, whatever going down to the basement where Wherever Rambo is locked like in a dungeon behind these Behind these bars and that the the dungeon is dark and there's a man outside holding a rifle Soldier and he says did Troutman he broke the light again I've got to be careful here because I don't know if children are listening. So I'll just I'll do this a different way He broke the light again. He thinks he's the blank blank blank prince of darkness And uh, so once I received this script and I saw that I said, well, yeah, I couldn't do this So my arrangement with Carol Cole was that I there'd be one-third a shooting script There'd be one-third me and there'd be one-third James Cameron And it never been done before the the novelization was six weeks on the New York Times list And I think to this to this day is probably the most unique Novelization that was ever published, but it was a lot of fun to do. I had to write it rapidly, but it was so Once I oh Cameron that script was so interesting, but it had a sidekick Rambo had a sidekick Who was probably going to be John Travolta because Slia directed Travolta instead of live? And uh, and obviously he can't have a sidekick. So, you know, that was the end of that script All right, why don't we take a couple of questions, uh that have been submitted? um, you spoke a little bit before about Uh, we some you talked about who else went and been considered to play Rambo You said Chris Christofferson were they was there anybody officially Under consideration besides Stallone or was it him from the well as I said, uh, Steve McQueen was was that was definite That wasn't a well. We'll see Sydney Pollock told me they were ready to go before they had second thoughts because It just wasn't going to work. We're the 45 year old vietnam veteran there were uh, there There was a article in the LA Times called the curious evolution of John Rambo and that was published in 85 and That's part of a limited edition Of my novelization that gauntlet press released recently signed numbered hardback then and and that essay is in is with the with the book and and according to that, um Um, uh, perhaps John Travolta was in fact thought about as Rambo. I just don't see it. Michael Douglas Uh, there was some talk about Paul Newman. But as I said, my information was that he was going to be the the police chief so, um Uh, uh Apart from McQueen, there was nobody that I know of that was absolutely In signed for it Here's another question With the novelization for the second film How did you get around the fact that you guys at the end of the first book? Well, that was the problem. That was another reason why I kept saying I just don't know if this is going to work Because Rambo is dead at the end of the novel. So what's all this? And and by now I was sort of I was by now once I'd read the Cameron script Um, I thought this this could be a lot of fun I like, you know, I I over the years. I finally decided that my career is based upon reinventing genres so or forms or whatever you so Try to shake up the novelization form. But I just didn't know I thought This is a problem. So my friend Max Ellen Collins Uh, uh who lived in Iowa when I lived there And max is known for doing the Dick Tracy Later Dick Tracy comic strip and of course the graphic novel the brilliant graphic novel the road to perdition And you you were telling me you have you know, do you know max? I can't remember what we uh, what we talked about No, that wasn't me. Unfortunately. I don't know max. I know I know the work I do know Somebody else who said, oh, yes, he did and then it's not ringing a bell But anyhow, so we met in a bookstore how appropriate meta meta meta So, um, he said It's very simple, David and I said, well, if it is that simple, please tell me And he said all you need is a note at the front of the book that says in my novel First blood Rambo died in the films. He's alive That's simple and well, I mean it's a dodge obviously, but if you don't have a sense of humor, you know You can't move forward and I said Okay, and so, you know, that's at the start of the second and the third novelizations Okay, uh, we have one more question. If anybody would like to um pose any more questions. Please do so But we have one more right now Um, so there is a special edition of first blood with an added first chapter Yes Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes, the gauntlet press is I mentioned a specialty publisher for collectors Did uh signed numbered hardbacks 500 copies first blood Rambo two and Rambo three And I was a professor as I said and I admired the Norton critical editions When I was when I taught you'd have the text and then you'd have all this other stuff You know letters and essays and whatever And so I said I'm going to make these three collectors editions my Norton critical editions for the Rambo stuff So what can I do for first blood that would be different? Well, I thought and I'm always the teacher I thought there was a first chapter that was never used And and uh, the chapter begins the the the insecure novelist in me writing my first book Decided that I'd start with a big action scene with Rambo rushing through the forest with the helicopter chasing him And the scene would be narrated from the viewpoint of the two guys in the helicopter And it's a very exciting scene But Once you've done that First of all, we don't know who these guys are We don't know who Rambo is and then the action starts, but it's really not the start of the story So where do we go from there? It was wrong the rest of the book went a bit of flashback and it was it just wasn't it wasn't going to play So I I finally Decided that the the the start of the book was Rambo coming to town and as in the movie And and the police chief saying, you know, you just don't look right to me And uh, and this sentence came to me. His name was Rambo and he was just some nothing kid for all anybody knew And okay, I could run with that and I began writing the novel in a straightforward timeline. No flashbacks But that that chapter in its own way is pretty neat chapter So the the first blood special edition which is available. Well, it's actually they sold that out. You might get it on ebay But the other the two and three are still available from gauntlet press I thought that's going to be pretty cool. So I'll I'll put that in there And then I put in a lot of other things that were relevant to the Um to the to the novel and how I I wrote it All right, uh, we have one more question. This I guess this will be our capper. Um, what did you think of the most recent film? well, um My feeling about the film is that it's not a true Rambo film That it could be about somebody named john smith that there are If we want to to take the timeline from my novel, which is different And we if we want to go just even from the movies forward There are things that are established and there's first four movies that the fifth movie contradicts And there are logical inconsistencies and and just a number of other things And uh, so I just I guess I just don't consider it part of the Rambo canon And You know, what's to be done? It's uh, it's it's out there, but I can't I don't want to say much more than that about it fair enough Well, David, thank you very much. This has been great Uh, as a fan as a fan of the movies, uh, since I was a kid This has been a real treat for me, especially and I'm going to go back and reread the book now too. Well, thank you It's my copy's been sitting on my on my shelf for a long time since I first read it. I'm going to go dig it out again Thank you very much everybody for tuning in Again, if you are so inclined, please visit our website. Uh, you can get all our upcoming programming Please consider making a donation or becoming a member It really helps us in these times when we're social distancing and our doors are closed I want to thank david again, uh, and uh, if you have anything coming up Soon or coming out again, maybe we can do this again sometime david sure it was fun. The hour went very swiftly Oh for me anyhow god knows what everybody's suffering out there, but for me it went very swiftly Uh, speaking for myself. I thought it was great time flies when you're having fun. Good night everybody. Thanks again See you next time David, thank you Yeah, that that went swiftly Yes, I was uh, so Uh, I'm still got to work on these lights. I'm not sure I like them, but at least you could see me So, you know, much much appreciated for everybody who's still on. I'm sure we could express our gratitude Um, fantastic evening. Okay. Thank you. And I'll look forward some time in the future to be in touch again Thank you very much again. Have a good night. Okay. Good night