 All right, I am Harrison Goldstein. I'm here with Dan Higgins for the CCTV podcast and Dan. Thank you for joining us today Of course Yeah, so really excited to get this interview going get a little different perspective and our last interview with mild jewel and one group Glenda video and it was a big focus on Video media and community media. So you're a photographer. So that'll be a new perspective to have so I think that'll be really cool Um, so when did you get into photography? How long have you been doing that and why did you what drew you to that? When I was at the University of Michigan I I did a class in photography, but I never really started using it as a way to integrate community numbers until I was doing an archaeology archaeology project In the Great Lakes of Kelly's Island and the crew had disappeared for one reason or other And we were supposed to be gathering information and I hired a airplane And a pilot and went up and did an aerial view of the town and I blew up a big Train of it. Yeah, so early drone photography the magnet. Yeah It didn't matter where I went people wanted to come over and look at the print and tell me what they saw It was a great device for for finding out where potential sites were Mm-hmm, that's what I was supposed to be doing But people told me things about their lives, you know, like this is my oh, that's my house Oh, we do need a new roof my husband told me. Yeah, and so it's really doing it as a archaeological Device that I realized how Great a magnet People don't want to talk about Art particularly. Yeah, people tell you everything they want to talk about something that they can relate to more so Yeah, I mean that's so I'm a photographer too so that my main medium I drifted a little towards more towards video In terms of school just because I didn't necessarily want to go to school for photography I want to kind of get something newer under my belt But that's definitely one of my favorite parts is like doing Taking photos of events and stuff and then being like look at this awesome picture I got a view like oh and then like if it's like a skiing picture because that's a lot of what I do They'll like critique themselves like wow if I didn't have this picture I wouldn't have been able to know that like my foot is dragging in this way or I'm not my shoulder isn't forward enough So I definitely think that that's a light. I know that's a huge part of photography It's the connection that I can bring And for me the I'm really not a photographer. I'm not a very good photographer. I'm an artist who uses photography And and for me the exhibition And finding the context to show work in it's just as important as the making of the work. Yeah 100% So yeah, that's also that's really interesting that the More archaeological like physical science side is what attract like kind of brought you in To the more art side. So do you think how do you think your path would have been Do you think you would have gone as much into photography if it wasn't for friending this plan or When I first started at UVM, I was teaching printmaking. Yeah I was there was a dark room. I was showing students how to use it And this is they wanted to have credit for it was during that period where Universities were beginning to integrate photography as an academic subject And this was screen printing or was it like metal? This was actually engraving. Okay. Yeah, I've heard a little bit about that I haven't gotten a chance to do it. Yeah Assets. Yeah a lot of and it was I'd done it. I could I could teach you but the photography became Something that I became associated with yeah, so um, yeah going off of that class on photography When you talk off of the screen making class you wound up teaching a photography in Community class right time at UVM. Okay, yeah in the art department. Yeah, so did you teach a community photography in community class? Yeah, that was much later. Okay. That was uh See I was teaching up there over 30 years. Yeah. Yeah long history. So my favorite class That I talked toward toward the end of my time up here was called the photographic community and the interesting thing was Getting people like UVM students would say, oh, we're not part of the community. Yeah So you had to work for a little bit to realize that everybody does have a community Yeah, or wants to be part of one and then each student in that class would Define a community and work with it and they had to show their work as they made it in the community. Yeah So it fulfilled that whole circle. Yeah, so you would say that Like from your point of view your perspective and teaching is that you are less of less teaching them About photography and community and more guiding them to find community with photography Or I was I was guiding them to choose a community and then use photography As a way of accessing the community. Okay, and that included showing the work in the community. Yeah, I think that's That's a big part because I'm like showing the work and giving it back to the community because I'm working on A documentary right now and everyone it's the first question It's like what is this going to be used for am I going to be able to see it? Will you send this to me? And I think that's Uh issue that happens a lot of time in like documentary work or photo work Besides you go take a picture of someone and then they never see it and like it's ever we've had this conversation Like it can be very exploitive. Um, so I think that's a very important part of This type of photography and video work is giving it back to the community because If you're just going into the community and taking pictures you're not Doing anything, but if you're going into the community taking pictures and showing them it's Building more of a community community rather than just Showing how you saw this community. Well, you're channel 17 this community video. Yeah So it's about community. Yeah 100 percent. Um So How so you talked a little bit about photography and community. That's kind of what we've been talking about. Um But how would you say you used your photography to give back to the community other than just like we said putting it In a community because I know it's your I don't know. What's just the onion photos or What what's the name for that the I know there's a name for it. It's on the tip of my tongue Well, one of the first projects a lot of my I've worked in different communities. Yeah, but when uski has been For the last 50 years an interesting place for me I I do a project That I think is going to engage the community. Yeah, and and maybe what you're talking about is in the Early when I one of my first projects was A series of images I made of people holding it. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about and You know and when uski at the time was a very different community. It was it was downtown Everybody spent time in the bars and the restaurants. Yeah main street was effective. And so I would Ask people I would say not can I Take your picture, which is kind of lame. Mm-hmm. Can you help me with a project? I'm doing. Yeah Let me photograph you holding and I'm and wording it like that I've found works a lot better than asking someone to do something rather than including them as it Absolutely. And and and there was resistance. Yes. No, why would I do that? And uh Kids would do it. I got not a number of people do but what I what I rented When uski had a lot of empty storefronts. Mm-hmm It's after the mills and clothing store. Yeah, and I ran into a space for a month And every day I put a photograph up in the window and I knew portrait. There's one one Day two, there's two of them. Yeah, okay three. There's three of them And I could watch people in the restaurants coming out going up pointing going in bringing their friends out And so it became a community theater piece. Yeah, and by the end of the week people were Asking me When I was going to include them. Yeah And and not wanting to do it on the street saying can you come do it in my In my house. I have a beautiful house. Yeah So so it that's a very good example because they didn't know me until the end of the week Yeah, and then they wanted to be part of this thing So it was really a week. You think it took for people to like warm up. Oh, yeah, that's that's pretty impressive I think that at the end of the week they were they saw their friends. Yeah, they were jealous. It was You know, so it became it became you've got a certain cafe Caché if you were willing to have your picture open Yeah, and then I followed it the next year I did on your portraits of groups Every group I could think of in UNESCO and I didn't have just the the little Storefront of mine, but it went the whole street. Oh, okay People would walk couldn't take 20 minutes walking down the street. Yeah stories And that I that's not easy to do now because it's That's not the kind of UNESCO is it's much more broken up. Yeah at the time You know everybody went to Bill's diner in the American restaurant Yeah, everybody was there. It's so you have to you have to um You have to find a way of showing the work that's going to engage The community whatever the community is. Yeah So what would you say was um with that project was to you What was like the whole thing most? Well, it's like the most redeeming part of that was just seeing the community Like coming together or was it something less obvious or more subtle or there's a very selfish part. Yeah, it allowed me to To meet a lot of people to have fun with them to the library To hear their stories and that's a big part of yeah my selfish part then in terms of Having the community experience the show Then the stories Continue. Mm-hmm. I I'm not privy to all the stories. Yeah coming out would talk about new day new Yeah, and that's another big important part of Yeah, that's really interesting how I i'm on very surprised at how um quickly people took to it because I don't think it would take a much longer than um a week but that's It really I mean that could just be the like generation i'm growing up in that people are more hesitant to do things or Well, everybody saw them all. Yeah, because they're all coming out of the restaurants. Yeah, what is this? What is it? What's why are you did you get in there? Yeah, you were able to get everyone's interest and uh, you know, um People saw it and then they contacted me, you know a woman Said I want to be in there, but you got to come you know up to my apartment There was a a girl who Was living in her garage She said I have a dress my parents hated but I want to be filmed in that I mean so there were so people definitely collaborated on how they wanted to be seen That that was really important. That's interesting. So I also know that Was it this series at the Fleming museum asked you to display? Or was it a different one? I think the onion portraits I had the opportunity at the Fleming But it but it would be have taken it out of the context that it was in and that that's an important piece for me is I wanted the photographs to be on the street Mm-hmm of real natural. I didn't want them up on the hill at a art gallery. Yeah, put on their art glasses See it differently. That'll take what was community media make it more just media, which it takes away Make it hard. Yeah make it you can't go into a museum. You know without putting on your art glass Yeah, it's a different it's a different way of looking at it. Yeah 100 percent. Um, so we've talked a lot about it indirectly, but What is to you what does community media mean? If you could sum it up, what would you say community media is? A media is so different now A media is a big umbrella. Yeah Um, I would say Um Well, I would say that whatever the media is whether it's uh photographs or whether it's uh video or whatever it is It's it's it's interacting inside the context of the media and hopefully Getting people in the community to um Getting people who are in the Community to appreciate it. Yeah, enjoy it to Hopefully make connections. I mean we're It's harder and harder the I think in 19 and four way in 2022 Yeah, almost 23 people that you don't know And the and the communities are much more broken up now too. Yeah, so When I was doing say the onion portraits in what 1973 or six or something Um, everybody met everybody was downtown. Yeah That's not the case now. No, it's not everyone where they live Old people are in their silos They're in their senior When uski is On paper everyone says it's the most diverse community in in vermont. Yeah, but you wouldn't know that if you went into downtown When uski now, you would have no idea. So you've got to find so to what is the community? There are many different sub communities. Yeah And how do you access to them and how do you get their stories? To spill over into Part of that's not their community the one big central Yeah, how do you get how do you get the uh, how do you get the stories at the rvi at the rva? Um heard by the people that are doing The the board game at the smalley bento center. Yeah, you know, they're it's just so broken up Yeah, there's so many different divisions. So it's it's much harder to answer that question than it was In the 70s. Yeah, definitely. I'd cctv started in 1984 And I was involved with lauren glenn. Yeah, and I was doing video of people People in henry's cafe at seven in the morning telling stories. Yeah, I was just I was just shooting it real natural As a continuation of my photography. Okay. There was no public access. Yeah, and lauren glenn Who had done her? university paper Honours paper, I think on moneski. She and I Got to know each other because of the winterski and then she she's the one that went and got the cable company I think it was cox cable. Yeah, it went up an hour a week for For what we now call public access. So what? So you said that you were involved with lauren glenn, but what a first like interested you about cctv or like What made you want to be with lauren glenn to pursue this mission? Oh, it was amazing because the stuff that we were shooting You didn't see on television. You know, it was it was whatever it was the real people Yeah, it's what interested people it was You didn't know what you were going to see. It wasn't news. It wasn't um, you know The important stuff that's on the other channels. Yeah And it was great people saw their neighbors Uh It was very exciting. Yeah Definitely and so what? Plus I turn and thought but um Happens easy to do it is so um Was it like a natural? um You becoming involved did like lauren kind of like persuade you to join her or were you like this is something I want to be a part of i'm doing this with you. Oh, no, we we had we had different skills I mean she she got the cable companies to to open up a time slot and then we had um I remember we used to have people that had cameras. It was the era of camcorders And um people had them and didn't know how to use them the girl scouts had one They didn't use it. So so we would invite people to Join us to see how to use how to and the idea was make a make a video of something important to you That's under five minutes. Yeah And um, and it was it was it was revolutionary. Yeah to see that on television It was I mean definitely seeing everyday people. I mean now they can make Any as long as it's not too out there you could come here and you could do any show essentially you want on any topic Oh, yeah, which I think it's very Big a big part of community media. It's the availability and the possibilities to Make something like that and to have the freedom um So we'll say that at that time there were no studios. No And in some ways it was very interesting because people had these little camcorders And they're out in the world shooting stuff. Yeah we we did a In 19 and 2000 This is uh There's a town in nicaragua. It's a sister city. Yeah, and and uh, we got some Editing equipment to vhs fitting equipment From here and we took five cameras and we had 18 people in that community to learn how to Tape what they thought was their their community was about. Yeah, that was it was absolutely revolutionary One hour a week same as here the cable company gave us one hour a week And these kids put their um their stuff up and they and they suddenly saw people A grandmother sitting in a on the street corner speaking mosquito. Yeah talking. I mean it was it opened up The media to to uh to people's lives. Yeah, and it's that's a good example of a non-exploitive um way of showing the community that most people wouldn't see because um, if you're looking at some video of some rural community in nicaragua or venezuela or Basically any country that's not as developed as the u.s. Um many times that film that video those pictures they Might not have been taken with the community's interest Um, so seeing it from the community that people that live there Is definitely an interesting perspective that it's hard to Hard to find. Well now it's it's um You know media is so vast. Yeah, I'm tick tock and I was talking to a woman on the bus yesterday. Mm-hmm. It says she puts all of her videos She's a 60 year old woman. Mm-hmm. She sings she puts them up um I don't know how I'm gonna find them. I mean, yeah, in other words people are They're doing a lot with media and they're somehow getting it out there, but They're not reaching people that don't know them. Yeah much. There's some this is a kind of a A wall. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. No, I'm trying it because it's not Like you can't really have too much media But or like an oversaturation of it But at one point at what point is there So much media that it's hard for people their own things to actually connect I'd like to see her on channel 17. See I still watch television. I watch channel 17 Yeah, you guys never you never say what's on it doesn't you know The description of what you're watching is either wrong or not on there. It says government access So it's always a surprise, but I would love to see You know a five minute video of her TikTok Yeah stuff On community television. Yeah, definitely be interesting, but I don't know how you how you catch all those things Yeah, people are kind of isolated Yeah, it's very Isolation is a huge thing now, especially after kovat um So I know you also used um front porch forum right to connect with people That I've done a lot of series about when eski as it's changed. Yeah, and uh Yeah front porch forum Was a resource because the stories were already there. Yeah, so people You know what that front porch forum is right? Yeah, so people would they would list something you know, we've got a chicken and we've got eggs and we've got We want to sell our eggs and so forth So I would that was easy. I could start with the stories And I could go meet the people and I could say I want to do a Collaborative picture with you saying something about your your story. Yeah And the other woman says well, I've got chickens. I got a husband. I said that's good baby And then I would I'd never take a camera. Yeah when I meet people I'd say, okay, I'll come back next Saturday and we'd set it up and we've gotten the chicken coop and got the baby and The chickens are running around and So that's the making of the photograph. Yeah, that's my selfish. I like that. How do you show it all? Well front porch forum is a it's on the internet. Yeah, so they're looking on their screens So I I made big pictures I think I had about 30 And I and I put them in the The coffee shop in Windows key right on the corner there. Yeah and one of the things about Collaborating with people is if they're in the show, they're going to come to the opening. Yeah, exactly And you can usually get the coffee shop. I think Had some Pastries or something And most of the people that are in the show came down to it and and what what happened is they actually met each other There's a woman an artist a glass artist Her name is terry. Okay, and she spells her name Rry, which is which most people knew her from front porch forum, but they assumed it was a man. Yes. Yeah And they were so surprised to see her At the opening you're terry. Yeah, so you're not a man and and so so that was a good example of A different way of how do you access community stories and get people to to engage? Yeah, no, I definitely think it's a great way to do that because they're already Sharing the story. It's not like instagram, tiktok or facebook where you're posting a photo or video of something completely random Maybe but it's you're sharing it with intent with purpose um, so I definitely think that was a Interesting part of front porch forum who made it so different and also Front porch forum is very interesting. It's it's a limited number of people who use it. Yeah, definitely Who read who maybe more people read it, but the people who post Are kind of a self Selecting. Yeah, no, it's definitely I'm in a few facebook groups with my hometown and I think it's um kind of a similar um similar thing So it's a little bit of timeless. So I see you have um Your photos so I'd love to take a look at these Okay, well, this is um I'll name this at the camera. Yeah, this is a cover of a book and and the first This page was shot in 1973 and this was shot In the 2000s from the same window Very interesting Yeah and and of what I don't know what we could do with this book. Um This is a a lot of what my history and haski has been about So you have the onion portraits You can look at her. Yeah Yeah, there are there are about seven different projects okay, so this not like uh A port not a portfolio but a way of Kind of bringing these projects together in one format you would say or was it more just a pleasure project or The book is a history. Yeah, okay When I moved to burning to the corporation hall they had um bingo every night Yeah, what is in What is in these cages the bingo? Oh, that's yeah, there's an air thing that blows the balls up. Okay, and the bars were all I mean, there's a lot of stories in there. Oh, yeah You could tell just by looking at the people looking at the expressions on their faces or what they're doing that All right, these are the original. Yeah, so these are some of the onion ones a woman who came She saw the series and said you come to my apartment. I'm I don't want to be on the street These are just some guys. I mean, it's a very diverse and I like how it's a very Natural like it's not a perfect photo Like it's like I like I feel like that gives Adds to the character of it adds to her character and stuff um I definitely think that adds to just all of it um I know but then you have a photo like this where it's a very A less candid portrait. Um, so I think it's interesting. Well, they all held the they all held the onion differently. Yeah Barber This is the girl that uh was a the girl that came and said I have a dress and I'm I want to be photographed in Yeah That's awesome. Yeah, you could just tell by the photos that there's a lot of History or just stories with the people in them Yeah, these were from the Well, some of the 70s going back Let's see what else is in here Um, I'm going to just change a lot. This was A period when the refugees Settlement was bringing in families And I was trying to get families to Hold an onion. Yeah and include something Of of the culture they'd come from. Yeah, these guys wanted to have the lion these Sudanese guys Michael Jordan in the back He's oh this family from Iran. Yeah They were amazing. They uh, they went up to montreal and they got food Uh from iraq. I think they were and they and they made a dinner That's awesome. So the stories They're the collaborations This allowed me to meet these families You know and as the as the as the town This is frontport forum stuff. I don't know. I'm giving a talk about this whole history If you're interested in When's that going to be senior center? I think it's on the 13th. Yeah, definitely tell us the whole story Of the town Very interesting You know in the front porch forum these people had a tree that had fallen down and they You got the writing. Yeah, they invited people to come up to get some Uh wood for sculptures Um Stories. Yeah, exactly. They're that's what they are their stories and the people Of these stories And then I did a show which is which was more about Um This is an interesting one. This is a front porch forum Item I put everybody was complaining about the f 35s. Yes, we still are So I put out a french foot forum. I said, you know, people have to co cover their hands. Yeah Send me photographs of of any situation you're in where you're where you're having to cover your hands I got lots of them. And so this is a collage I put together from lots of different peoples Um, yeah They sent me and then this is this is a series I did where the photographs are Put up on the walls Unfortunately, we were at time even though I know we could keep talking about these photos all day Um But yeah, thank you so much for coming to join us. Is there joining you? Yeah Is there any other parting words he would like to I don't have any parting words This is kind of early in the day for yeah, keep it keep them on their toes Awesome. Well, thank you for coming. Thank you for listening