 Lawmakers reject bill-empowering Nigerians to sue government for not providing basic welfare. And on insecurity, presidential panels seek support for armed forces reforms from the House of Representatives. This is PLOS Politics. I am Mary Anacorn. The House of Representatives has rejected a bill seeking to make the provision of basic welfare compulsory. The bill, sponsored by Sejos Ogun PDP Edo, sought to amend Section 6 of the 1999 Constitution by allowing the judiciary to entertain cases on the provision of basic welfare as contained in Section 13, 14, 15, 16 through to 21. Now joining us to discuss this is Public Affairs Analyst Ambrose Ibuki and Legal Practitioner Ladik Bot Johnson. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you. Good evening. Okay. And thank you, Ambrose, for joining us. I'm going to start with you, Ladik Bot, because you are a lawyer. But the first question that comes to mind is, why do we need an extra bill to get our leaders to do right by us? I'm asking this because the average Nigerian would think that the Constitution should accommodate that from the get-go. Well, the Constitution basically says that we are entitled to these benefits, these welfare things, shelter, you know, things like that. But the Constitution, well, cleverly, because of those who brought it to life into being stopped short of allowing us to go to court regarding those benefits. So it's not just a civil? Not just a civil. And I suppose the fact that the country is where it is at at the moment, that probably got the member thinking that if government will face lawsuits from individuals and society, then government will be forced to ensure that it does what is right by the people. But of course, we know that it was shouted down. It didn't happen. But I take it that that is the reason why the bill was brought forth in the first place. Well, I mean, like I said, there are sections in the Constitution all the way down till 21 that makes those accommodations. But then we've been pushing for these amendments in our Constitution. What exactly have we been amending? The most obvious, again, the average Nigerian is supposed to have access to basic amenities, which we do not have because we have become somewhat of a government to ourselves. You have your own light, you dig your own borehole, you literally almost grade the road that leads to your house. So again, and you're still being tacked, by the way, so why would our lawmaker, because I'm still asking this question because these people are supposed to be there to serve us. Although one person, let's just say one person remembers that he's there to serve the people, but the rest of it, you know, seem not to be okay with it. The key word from what you said is these people are supposed to are lawmakers, supposed to be our lawmakers, but they are not. Unfortunately, that is the reality of it all. And it's not their fault. It's because we don't hold them to account. That's the problem with the country, one of the main problems. The people do not hold those in government to account. You have an opportunity to do that every four years. The basic thing, you have an opportunity to do that. I want to disagree with you, but Ambrose Sibuke is joining us live via Zoom. I want to take it up from where Mr Johnson is stopping. He's talking about the fact that we have every four years to decide to hold these people to account. But some people have, we've seen even governors in Lagos, we've seen some people do a term and then go their way. Do we have to wait for four years to hold our leaders accountable? The constitutional basic play that we can actually, there are constitutional provisions that can be elected leaders. One of these is impeachment. The other one is recall. For example, the senators of the House of Representatives can't be recalled. So those amendments are there, I mean the provisions are there in the constitution. Because of the Nigerian facility, the concept of power belongs to God. The concept of clannishness that says, oh, this person is our hope. That makes us think, oh, okay, God has given him power, don't worry, the next four years, even if the person is doing very bad, we still wait for four years. We don't need to wait for four years. But who made the clannishness, or this person is our own, a thing in the country because it obviously starts from somewhere and now it's become acceptable. I don't know to what extent. But how did we allow it to get to a point where it's become so acceptable? I know that we see things through two major prisons, which is religion and ethnicity. But why do we allow it to affect us, especially in a way that it might be killing us? Well, because, first of all, the Nigerian project is not seen as a project foundation right from time. We remember in 1948, Chief of Bancropleau, what it said that Nigeria was the pure geographical expression. And we are here for most politicians, even leaders in the past, even our nationalist leaders in the First Republic, were referred to Nigeria as a mistake, a geographical mistake. And so, when Nigeria wanted to get independence in 1959, they were not ready. So, first of all, every Nigerian sees himself as an ethnic block, first, before seeing himself as an engineer. So we ask ourselves, where are you from? This person, we have the Udua, we have the people at the State of Biafra, we have the Pandem, they have the job days, we have the northern groups. So the country itself is not seen as a nation where the interest of the country is less than both ethnic clannishness. So the first thing is, first of all, belong to your ethnic block. Then, before you start talking about the nation. So that is how we are configured. And that is because the nation itself was not an agreement of the different ethnic nationalities that forms the state. Students of history, we know that the way Nigeria came to be was just the lateral decision of the business interests of the British conglomerates, the Royal Niger Company. And then, they brought the third setting people, officers, like the one they looked at in the work of 1st January 1940. And what British had earlier created, what they called modern, protectorate, and southern protectorate. And they just, 1st January 1940, just brought two of them together and named them a country called Nigeria. Without any recourse to what the national ethnicities were. Remember then, there were the great kingdoms of the places like Penikindom was an independent entity. Or Popu was an independent entity. Or your empire was on its own. So a lot of other empires were running on their own. And then somebody just came and merged them together with the brute force. Therefore, since that time, we have not grown to have that cohesion as a country. And that is what is affecting us today, even 100 years after. So it is too hard to say that we think of the country first. But in the context of our discussion, where a lawmaker represents you at the city, or house of a reps, or house of assembly, is not representing the country. It is representing that you are clandestine interests. It is representing that you are ethnic interests. It is representing your own interests. Therefore, we should not see it as if it is representing Nigeria. So it is not a Nigerian body. Even though they are representing constituencies or sanitary districts. When they are making laws, they are not making laws for the Oguni Central Sanitary District. They are making laws for Nigeria. So I don't necessarily... I mean, this is my opinion. It doesn't sit well with me when it says they are making it for us. The laws the senator of France is making should not be against the interests of his people. Therefore, his first interest is for his people, first of all. In the context of Nigeria, that is the reality. And that is why when we see what is okay, what with people in Nigeria that will pay for the rest of the country. And then we already have this thing in the Provisional Constitution. For example, Federal Charter Commission and all those things are saying that when you do certain things, you consider every part of the country because of a peculiar nature. But if you don't follow that process, then for when we go to the center, the truth is that when we go to the center in Abuja, every person goes there to negotiate for what is better for his own people or for self. That is what happens in Abuja. Let me come back to Mr. Johnson. There are lots of things that this particular bill would have addressed if it was not shouted down, even though there are still lots of people questioning why it was shouted down. Let's start with the basic amenities that we have. I went to Anamba to cover the election. The federal roads looked like a food park to my village. And my village is properly tied by the way. And we saw a lot of things that should not be. So let's just talk about the basic infrastructure like roads, like having access to education and having access to healthcare. We have not been able to scratch the surfaces. I mean, you can also make that argument, that state governors have their hands in it. But we run a system or a unitary system, even though we call it a federal system, that everything runs from the top. So why can't we as people support this person who has brought this bill to light? Yes, basically because those who are in the National Assembly or the majority that shouted the bill down, realize and know that the government will not be able to or is not able to or doesn't have the political will to ensure that it provides these amenities for the people of the country. Do you mean they do not want to, have no intention to, will never want to? Well, I think that... Because I don't understand that they may not have the capacity. They're there for self-first, if I want to put it bluntly. And look, we had COVID, we had economic difficulties. Has this government, any part of this government, any arm, have they cut the costs of governance? They haven't. They're buying jeeps, they're buying everything. And hey, people tighten your belt, but they're not doing any tightening. So that makes you realize that they are either just self-centered or it's almost like a criminal enterprise running on free, free flow. So unfortunately, that will continue, we've seen it. Now when I said you have... Nothing that's going to stop it, that's what you mean. No, no, no, something will stop it. It has to, something has to give after a while. It is the patience of the people. After a while, yes, we're docile. You know, the other guest said it, we're docile. Now when I said four years, I didn't mean that you couldn't recall or what have you, I know that. But it's like, if you're not even able to come out, every four years to cast your ballot, to question them and to give them their gender, he's very right. When he says that they're going there, we're talking about the senators and members of the House now, they're going there to negotiate on behalf of their constituents. Right? Now, if they cannot even do that, then what are we talking about? Back to you Ambrose, it's very interesting. Mr. Ladibor Johnson is making very interesting points as to the fact that our lawmakers don't necessarily want to do these things because I'm guessing that if you come to me and ask for my votes, go through all that trouble, spend money to buy a ticket and you tell me, you try to convince me that you are the man for the job and you are giving the job only for you to enrich yourself or make laws that don't necessarily indict you in any way. It really makes, it calls for consent, but voting in another set of people back into office, that's not really the solution, is it? What can the Nigerian states do, including the people? We have civil societies, we have pressure groups. What can we do to arrest this situation? Because it calls to question even our electoral processes, even us as the people, where we really want to go as a country, doesn't it? Well, first of all, I mean, politicians everywhere, usually controlled by the kind of followers they have. When you go to Europe or the United States of America or Canada or countries where the leaders seem to obey the bill or take the country as that, it's not because they are better than Nigerian politicians, they are not. They behave well because they know that their people are not docile. They behave according to the rules and they must perform because they know that if they don't, their people will impeach them or will recall them or will make their governorship hellish. They will protest, they will picket, they will harass you, but you look at the way Donald Trump was harassed, but harassed for four years by the media in the United States of America. It was war between both until you left office. So the leaders there, it's not that they are too good, it's because they are not the consequences of inaction, they are not the consequences of failure. Even they have gone beyond that to even begin to question the political ethics or morality of the politician. That's not what happened to the governor of Texas the other day. People have gone beyond what you can do in office to even your personal behavior and morality. That is how they have tightened the news of their politicians. But back home, what do we have? The politician goes to a butcher, it's something about hope. There's a long line of people waiting for him to get largesse from him. There are long lines of people who cannot pay hospital bills, who cannot pay school fees, who have birthdays, who want to bury their parents, who want to do all sorts of things, and then he has packages to them. And then what do we have? The man, of course, we go and steal, because the salary is ending at a cylinder. Doesn't he have a choice to say no? Doesn't he have a choice to say no? Does he have a gun to his head? What you're saying, I understand. But he does also have a choice to say no. Because where do we expect him? I get where you're going. You're saying we're part of the problem. But then if somebody somewhere says no, then of course a lot of people would know not to go there No, no, no. Politics is a business. It's a social contract with other people. So if the people who have a social contract are asking that all they need to do, whether you do well, whether you've been through it or not, all they need to do is that when they have an enemy ceremony, whether they have best days, whether they want to bury their father or mother, if they want to get school, get school fees, give two women empowerment, put some sewing machine, put a cycle, as a couple. We're having connection issues with you, Amber. So we're going to try to fix that. But back to you, Ladopo. It's interesting. We're part of the problem. We're the ones who lead this. But if our lawmakers, if all our politicians assume the position of Santa Claus, because they feel the need to give back to the people, there also has to be a group of people questioning where these monies are coming from. Shouldn't there be... I'm saying there has to be checks and balances one way or the other, but it looks like we've just entered every form of morality in this particular space. No, let me just say something. Now, they go back to their constituents. Most times, most times, those constituents are those who are dependent on them. Most of them are unemployed, or tired, do not have a way forward within the Nigerian society. These people are the people who will collect $2,000, $1,000, $4,000 beans, ground nut oil, and car to vote. Those who are thinking, or who think, like you are, they don't go out to vote most times. They don't even know where the constituency office is. So, those are the ones who are meant to be the... So you're saying the responsibility of checking and balancing lies with the middle class. Yes, the almost non-existent middle class. That is where the problem lies in Nigeria. One of the main places, we have so many problems, those who know or who ought to know. And then we're losing people every day. Now, let's go to the traditional family. Say the man is a breadwinner. He's going to work straight and narrow path. His friend comes up with a BMW today and two moms comes up with a Range Rover. If he has a worldly wife, she begins to question him waiting for you to look. Your friends are doing this and that. And that is where the problem comes in. So, it has reached a stage. It's now cancerous. It's reached a stage whereby it's like, look, you have to join him. If not, you will not survive. This country is geared and skewed towards pushing the average person to corruption. Towards corruption. Example. You say you seize houses from politicians or people who have embezzled. And then you now say you're putting it up for auction or for sale. How many people are doing work that can buy those houses and auction houses in Iqoi? I'm not saying there are no successful businessmen there. But on average, you know as much as I do. So, that is it. It is so unfortunate. Don't ask me where we begin to solve the problem. Because we're talking about the problems. Now, how do we get the solutions? I'm looking at this and I'm saying, this bill empowers the average Nigerian. And this average Nigerian might not necessarily be the person who needs 2000, but then that's the person who really needs government the most. Those people who need those basic health centres or health posts to be working. Those people who go to hospitals and they're asked to buy everything down to a scissors. Those are the people who should be empowered. Not you and I who can afford an Uber. So, I'm asking what is the solution? 23 is around the corner. Next year is campaign season. The rice is going to be rolled out. The monies are going to come out. That's why I said that it will get to a stage whereby we will not have an option. Do we have an option now? Are there any options? Even now, as I was coming to the studio here, I saw a truck here in V.I., one of your neighbours delivering bags of rice and I immediately knew that they were probably for a handpath to give out. So, it's still... I came from a party today this afternoon. So, you still have people still making ends meet whatever. It hasn't reached that stage. When it gets to that stage then unfortunately we will be the first to suffer. The middle class who live amongst the people will be the first... Remember the answers. Those in Leckey suffered from those that came across from like Jack Onder's days and what have you. They suffered from them. They didn't say no, the politicians are in V.I. and Leckey. They went straight to those who were near them and that is what will happen. And by the time they finish with us the police and military will have fortified the Asokoro's and what have you. So, the middle class must begin to act. How do we educate the average person because you see, that's also another problem. They are quick to come after the average person because they feel like, well, you're able to accord this. It's difficult to educate a hungry man. It is. You try to educate them. You tell them that don't sell your vote this, that, and say, ah, Maryannia, you are right. I know. But you see, that election comes. The person is hungry. You've educated her. You've gone, you're coming to work, you're busy every day. Then that person going for reps or assembly comes to her two days before elections. Gives them money. And says to them, on election morning you'll get 2000. And after the votes have been counted come over, you'll get another two. And you now come out. You've been to work. You won't even be there. You'll be reporting on the day of the elections. And the person comes out again and says Mama, don't forget to vote your conscience. What conscience? You understand. It's a sad situation. So I always say that the politicians have deliberately impoverished the people in this country. So that, they know that they can throw the money out like porn. I was listening to the radio this morning London broadcasting and I heard a caller say that Nigerians are not necessarily running away from a war or a coup. Someone suggested that there might be a coup in Nigeria and that's why they have so many of them crossing over in dinghies. And somebody said well, they're mostly economic migrants and that's because the politicians in their country are stealing all the money and I was embarrassed because I was a Nigerian listening to this conversation on the London radio. But how long can we take the 2000s and the rice that finishes in a week and that politician never shows up again? Something is. I would really think that something has given already or is it that when you push a Nigerian to the wall he calves a comfortable space in that war will we ever get to that point in closing? Will we ever get to that point? I hope so. It takes a few we might not even get to that point and when we'll begin to turn the ship to face the right direction. You understand it takes a few good men and women. How hopeful are you? I'm pushing you how hopeful are you because every opportunity to push back on the government seems to have been taken away from us. In terms of the fact that now you cannot necessarily protest. They say it's on paper that you can't protest but every time there's a plan protest, the commissioner of police in Lagos for example will come out and say no protesting. You can't do it at the fountain in Abuja. You can't protest. Here we have the reports of the answers that the federal government is saying it stales by moonlight. So really will we ever be able to get to that point because it looks like there's a sellotape over the mouth of the Arabic Nigerian in closing? Well, I believe we'll get there. I believe we'll get there. I think that the generation come in behind us if we look at what happened with the Ansars have shown themselves to be more militant and I keep telling my friends that these ones coming behind us are going to blow those in government away and blow us who haven't done anything away as well. So we will get there because you see you can only run you can only run away to find comfort in Europe and other places only so many people can go after a while you know some will not go and they'll start to say I don't even want you see the problem now is that a lot of the people who can say no my generation are people who are also thinking let me go into government but these ones are people who don't give a damn about government and will simply say boom. Well, let's hope it doesn't come to this. If you want the change to come if the change doesn't come naturally it will come by force. Well, Laddipa Johnson is a legal practitioner and of course Ambrose Moke is a political analyst unfortunately we lost him due to connection but thank you gentlemen for being part of the conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break now and when we return a presidential panel we'll take support from the House of Representatives stay with us.