 All righty, we are live and I don't have the book with me. I don't know if you do oh well done darling girl a retelling of Can't is it even a retelling of Peter? It's it purports to be a Retelling of Peter Pan. It actually says a novel of Peter Pan I Means it wasn't trying to be a retelling maybe but just a Peter Pan Well, I was gonna say yeah, it's not a retelling because it's it's more a sequel Because it's not like telling the offense of Peter Pan and saying what if instead of what the story you know Although because of the like backstory it gives it like goes back to retell Peter Pan in the like backstory But it's not here Pan as if it could that the book that we read could be the real book in worlds But it was falsified. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but I mean so like I'm gonna say like it just it retells Peter Pan in so far as it's like Oh, yeah, that that book Peter Pan that was written about this thing that really happened Here's what really happened briefly Cliff notes version So like that part of it is like technically I guess a retelling of Peter Pan where it's like this is what actually happened But moving on with our present day story Oh Boy, I don't know if we want to do like like 10 minutes as like non-spoiler as we can so that if anyone hasn't read it And is like I don't know yet so we can convince them not shouldn't they'll stay for the spoiler part Okay, that's fair. Um, you shouldn't read it. That's my That's my recommendation unless actually I do think there's like an audience like I like in this book to a Lifetime movie and if you're not familiar with you should read it ironically Yeah, yeah, because my my best friend and I grew up watching like movies. We love them But like we love them because they were bad. They're all these movies There's always like the man if there is a man in a lifetime movie. They're the villain. That's how it goes They've done something wrong. They're all ridiculous and stupid and they're fun because of that And this is a Peter Pan lifetime movie So if you love that and you want to read something like that The same level of logic and the behavior and speech of the characters. I mean, I honestly This could be adapted as a lifetime movie and be perfectly in place like Down to like she owns a cosmetic brand, which we'll get to later But like also you wouldn't even need very much in terms of like special effects because it doesn't really Do very much perfect in fact, I'm gonna I'm gonna write the lifetime feel like you need to option this book It's terrible is what it is It's like where to start so I guess for people since most people here probably haven't read the book This we hope we hope or they're here for like group therapy And I already forgot the main character's name Holly, which is not Margaret Holly is Jane's daughter and in case you don't know and Peter Pan Jane is Wendy's daughter so we're a couple generations removed and that's who we follow and Basically, she lives in the legacy of the Peter Pan story and her family right, thank you, Bo and It's all about like Holly's relationship with that story because in this world Wendy did go with Peter Pan and it's a famous story written by a J. M. Berry, but now she's haunted by that legacy because Peter's supposed to come and he never came for her mom Jane thank you I don't know if that's confusing, but it starts off. It's funny because Lana was like Did I overreact when I told you I didn't like it because she finished it before me? And I was reading it. I was ranting and I was like feeling bad. I was like, I don't know Maybe maybe Hillary's gonna read this and be like, I mean I take your point and like it's not great But like I probably don't hate it as much as the image Way more than I mean I'm way more like page three. I think I wish I had pulled up the message page three I texted and go I hate this like I hate this already Look, just let me look But I think it's also that like you had already heard from me that this is not going to get good Whereas when I was reading it, I was like, okay Okay, I mean you actually hadn't told me that much. I think people will think that you influenced me You have actually put most of your thoughts In a different location, but I did message you was like I cannot express to you how much I hate You did have that The prologue actually the prologue was two pages and I actually liked that part That was the first part I liked and then the end of everything I liked. So the first two pages were great Not great. The first two pages were fine um but She It says of course Holly's also in the business of looking good Thousands of women all over the world rely on darling skin cream Like I lost it at darling Skin cream Like you know what it reminded me of any you said lifetime movie But like and by the time it gets to being spicy I was like, okay lifetime movie But in the very beginning when it's like darling skin cream, whatever My first thought was that no that it's like the disney channel original movies where it's like characters descendants You know where they're like weird tie-ins and whatever else is like, okay I mean, it's I guess it'll be a bit corny. Okay Just something about darling skincare that was actually on page one. So I already hated it on page one Sent me to another dimension, especially that they're launching a product called pixie dust like I just I couldn't handle it because here you have Peter Pan the original Peter Pan for those who haven't read it is like actually quite an adult novel it's it's full of about things about growing up and adulthood and And family and even though and it's very witty and funny But it's kind of serious in a weird way. I don't know so to go to darling skin cream. It just It's possible So and never just and I'm lost for words It was just so stupid Like and she's this and she's but I mean it's the kind of a kind of stupid that you get in the like What are those like the the the Christmas movies where what's her name keeps like it keeps like duplicating herself There's like exponentially more of her in every year where there's like it's she like it's like a princess and she's the regular version but she Sure Oh, is this the one with Vanessa Hudgens? Yeah, where there's like more Vanessa Hudgens is I've never seen them either But I watch all the videos around that time that youtubers make about them So I feel like I've seen them But like they're that level of cheese, you know where there's like some super like on the nose name for something some on the nose like Crime that they're solving or or even I mean at the Christmas prince, too I watched the videos on that and never seen them where they like I watched the first Christmas prince excellent tv Highly recommend. I've just watched Jenny Nicholson's um Christmas prince dystopia Video on that. I have watched it's like an hour long. I don't care. I have watched that so many times. Anyway, we're getting off there um But so there's but it's that level of like, you know, they have a Christmas ornament and that's where the king's Decree is hidden inside of which is like the stupidest thing ever where like darling skin cream pixie dust is like it's like that level But the thing about the Christmas prince is I know You can tell that everyone knows the Christmas prince is stupid like They made this to be a stupid movie The problem I have with this book is it seems to me that the author takes it extremely seriously Like she thinks she's done something. She's made a point because of how dark it gets Later. Well, I complained about this to you as well and it's like it's this book But it's more broadly every single Peter Pan retelling That like what you just said they think they've done something when they've made Peter Pan the villain and you're like You mean like every single Peter Pan retelling? And for those of you that read Peter Pan like the first study was always thought it was for children. Um Peter is not really the hero when you read it like Peter. I mean, he's not not the hero He's not really even the main character No, he definitely isn't but he is um like very clearly not very nice a lot and very clearly very self-absorbed and very um Everything about his whimsy and it's all about what he wants And it's kind of a stand-in in my opinion for for true like the selfishness of childhood I mean like children or for childhood is depicted as like the purest form of hedonism Yeah, exactly. And so Every time someone does I'm not saying it can't be done But when you do it this way all I could think of over and over again is like you didn't understand the original book And you have to understand the thing you're adapting you know and so You know because of that one more thing I just have to talk about one more thing about darling skin care Because I feel like we're moving on and I'm not ready to move on from that The worst part about darling skin care is that our main character Holly like in the book It's very like but I'm not a beauty person I'm a scientist And it is said so many times like because she can't be The head of a company she had she's smart. She's a scientist but like the author Decided that saying a character was a scientist enough and didn't need to Think at all Just throw sciency words in well. I think she was in a lab at one point. So therefore scientist I think I think she talked about a blood sample a thwart sample was I think proteins were mentioned Proteins were mentioned as was selmanella It was just like it was so bad It was like the equivalent of like someone dressing up as a sexy scientist for halloween But like in book form And no, like you see like lifetime movies hallmark movies disney chanel original movies where there's like Someone who is a scientist or someone who is a doctor or someone who is like a law enforcement officer and they are Not They're not any real sense. You know what matt fair enough They had better science than this book. So let that sink in um Yeah, it's just like that and um, I guess it's not too early to bring out my personal favorite line of the book where the mother Warns her child to not pick out a potato in the oven because it could give him salmonella I lost my freaking mind when I read that. I don't Like I think it was the kid who said who was reaching for a potato and she was like no and he was like, I know I know salmonella and she was like, right Wrong Wrong And I even googled this and the only cases of salmonella from potatoes are when they're in contact Like cross-comp contamination with chicken or whatever because I Like You can eat raw potatoes like people do that. I don't get it. That's the worst that happened Unless you took your raw potato and like rubbed it on some raw chicken in which case Salmonella I went back and actually read to make sure the chicken was in a different pot And it was like that's how angry this line made me. So it's like I had to go back and like research Anyway, so that's the level of science that's in in this novel after she's a big serious scientist And that that a whole thing just gave it such an air already of just like how am I supposed to take this seriously? Going for it and it doesn't help. I was reading um The three body problem trilogy at the same time, which is the extreme of like Too much science like people read that and they're like, okay, can you just make something up? I don't need this much science so the contrast Well, so I mean I talked about this and with you in general about like This book did it extremely badly But in general where I feel like odds are very high It will go badly if you if you're retelling something or inspired by something that is a very soft Magical realism type of thing and trying to like give like hard even if it's not science Even if it's like a hard like, you know, sanderson style hard magic rules to it Like that just like unless you're very very good or have a very specific project in mind for this It's just like that has a very high chance of going wrong because the reason this original material is the way that it is It's like intrinsic to how it works is that it's inexplicable and if you try to make it explicable You're gonna have to find a very very very good reason for this. Otherwise, it's gonna be stupid and so this was it so If this was you know somebody who's like really into science meaning the author And they were trying to bring that to peter pan. I'd probably still be like I don't know if peter pan is the best thing for that But like okay at least you have a lot of science stuff in here So like I get where you're coming from but I probably wouldn't choose Peter Pan But she doesn't have any knowledge of science. So it's like a soft Approach to science which is being used to harden the soft magic of peter pan. So it's just a mess It's a mess because It's trying to harden a very specific part And then it ignores everything else So everything else gets to be completely inexplicable except this one little thing that we're gonna explain It's kind of badly I was gonna say and even that part like it's pretty inexplicable because you're like, I'm sorry run that by me again How how how she said the word proteins the word protein, you know, whatever This is going to spoil your territory to help you understand what we're talking about. Um I'm trying to say how spoiler I want to be but holly has a daughter. I was like, how is she gonna explain this because It's kind of a lot We're not going to talk about chapter 18. Okay. That's chapter 18 needs to be talked about later I will never recover. I am scarred permanently from chapter 18. He will talk about it later But holly you find out later has one of her children is a child by peter pan already a really tough plot line but there we are And her child's blood heals Um, and there's a lot of ways that it heals and so the whole point is her talking about the protein In her daughter's blood that heals and that's like one of the big mysteries And like they sure throw that word protein around a lot And what I've just explained is about as a sciencey as it gets But it's supposed to be doing something But it doesn't just heal it d ages or anti ages sometimes Sometimes it doesn't this one Things were like the only way I could say that maybe I guess you can conflate those or the same mechanism Could achieve both is if it's like literally the concept of time reversal So like if you broke your leg, we reversed the time and now your leg goes back to being the way it was pre the day that it was broken just like aging would be like We reversed the clock to before You aged but it doesn't actually work like that I'm giving it a better explanation than she does because sometimes it d ages sometimes it heals There's no consistency. There's no And then sometimes it feels permanently and other times like one of the main plot points Is that her son's going to die if she doesn't have the blood? But like then there's several other times where people have been permanently healed. Yes, isn't peter pan a kid? What an interesting question you bring up Hmm Yeah, so it's a little disturbing maybe to think about someone having a kid with peter pan Well, it's I mean and okay, we're not ready for chapter 18. We got to talk about something else I know but i'm just gonna say again like a brought more broadly speaking This is again an issue with like taking us off. Okay. I'm stopped using those words because of chapter 18 So we're gonna not say soft and hard. We're gonna say um something You know amorphous and inexplicable versus something that is like concrete and explained um peter pan I mean is peter pan Even human like in the original story like it's it's magical realism like he's he's I don't know like when when he gets asked what is he he's like I am youth. I am joy. You're like okay On the taxonomic chart, not sure where that falls but um and then if you try to like if you I would prefer it to be then an utterly D magic to peter pan Which is more what you get in finding neverland, which is like the kids that actually inspired the story But I mean even if it wasn't the origin if it was just like literally retelling peter pan, but no magic and about you know, maybe uh a boy that I don't know Maybe somebody who just is really youthful all the time or maybe has there are you know all kinds of you know um Still to this day like rare and unexplained, you know conditions that people have that result in things that It isn't that you're actually like forever young But you know that like can slow like your growth and things like that So then if he has some kind of a condition like that and maybe they can make up a condition that actually has never existed That aren't to our knowledge But it's something like that and that that's what inspires this this story or something like that but instead it's like there's like a concrete science explanation of What we are agreeing is actually magic though Because she's like it is magic, but here's the science behind the science though because my person's a scientist and um That also it's it's interesting because when I think of the book as a whole There are interesting ideas in there that are done in the worst possible way like two of the ideas if I said to you You know darling girl is about the granddaughter of wendy and the pressure of the legacy of peter pan Okay, there's something there. I'm not saying it'd be great. Yeah, but there's something there Or also again the granddaughter of wendy her name is given in the original story and it is margaret not holly But okay, again. Well, we have other proof that we think that The author only watched the disney version and never actually read the book Correct, but that's the whole another thing. Um And then there's this other thing like okay, what if peter pan instead of representing innocence represented the loss of innocence Okay, I have there's a book there When I say that out loud like I don't know. No, I want to know about this book. I don't like that sentence right I don't either but if you divorce it from the book and it really was about a loss of innocence The peter pan comes to children who have lost their innocence like to help them regain it or something like there's something That's intriguing there and it's just like How could you turn it so bad like? Yeah, well the way you just described it It almost reminds me of ocean at the end of the lane by neela gayman Where like something magical is used as a way to like compartmentalize and explain trauma and like You know where if peter pan was that where it was like, oh, I could see peter pan fitting into that I could see a retelling where peter pan fits into that like I could see it. Um, but instead it's like the sensationalized dark like I I struggle getting into the author's mind. I guess let's just talk about chapter 18 We have to get it over with. Um This main character. I gotta do some backup. I'll let you do chapter 18. I'm gonna do 1 to 17 real quick You'll let me do chapter. I'll let you do chapter 18. Oh, thank you. Um Long story short, uh, holly was married and had three kids No, no holly was married and had two kids holly was married and had one kid. Well Yeah, they're twins. Oh, yeah, there was two kids. Yeah, so holly was married and had two kids They were twins They get into this terrible car accident And the husband and one of the twins dies and the other kid is severely severely injured Um And a few months later She's pregnant and they think it's the husband's child. Um from before he died That's when she has her a mother baby who has these healing powers and she accidentally heals um her twin brother Um through her blood because their blood mixes by accident when they both get injured one day Um, great, uh, and this has haunted her her whole life and we know that now her Daughter is in a coma and has been in a coma for like 10 years Um, so they just keep stealing her blood to help the child. That's kind of where we are briefly Um, and then we find out that the child is actually peter pan's child and how it's come about Leanna, why don't you take that? And keep it as PG as possible since we're on youtube I mean, basically from our faces and what you know of the parentage of this kid peter pan shows up peter pan is It's kind of unclear his age and not just because he's an immortal, but like I don't know what age he's even presenting as Exactly. We'll talk about all the problems of the scene We got to say what what happened directly asked isn't he a child and I'm like for this scene No, but like I also like I don't think he's meant to present as like a man Like not even like a 20 year old. I don't know peter pan comes to her Consensual consensual not consensual. Does that does that cover it chapter 18? Yeah, yeah, we'll just do it that that way and um The problem which Leanna is already getting into is like Besides there being so many problems with the way the scene is written. It's not actually written explicitly Like you could go read this and it's not explicit necessarily It's like a little bit but like I'm sitting to read it if you have problem If you have trouble with like reading a scene like that, it'd be absolutely upsetting I mean like it's not a joe abacrombie scene. It's not like that's not because you know what abacrombie never writes Is well non consensual we talked about that but I'm talking about like it's not detailed It is disturbing. I was profoundly disturbed by it. It's not anatomically detailed. Yeah, that's It's emotionally detailed but not like um it What you brought up is so Problematic for me is like she's a 30 year old or like in her 30s at the time that this happens and so already Peter Pan shows up and it's really disturbing because you're like he's described as at the very oldest a teenager So you're Trapped into a teenager like he's at least post-pubescent. That's as much as you can Surmise so from the main character. That's already problematic and I also have problems because in the first scene Peter is presented as very innocent Like has never even been kissed before And then We turned it up to 11 three days later We have this assault scene from Peter and I I literally I was it you or me who literally just went like chapter 18 why Like that's all we could say about why What is the But in fairness we said why about a lot of things in this book like the entire book is just one massive question mark But I mean, I think it was I'm like two weeks later I actually message you again about chapter 18 because I was like a three ups. You were still thinking about it because it's like There's like this Insinuation later that Peter came Right like that So it's disturbing and there's this insinuation that Peter came to her because there was a loss of innocence because she was about she wanted to um Be done with life because her Her husband was that her twin child was that and her other child at the time was like Never made me going to get out of the hospital So she's having this moment in the nursery of being like I don't even want to be alive and then he comes So there's this insinuation like Peter only comes when there's a loss of innocence. He's really like he's not good It's a lot, but then he's presented as innocent. So it's like a very confusing scene It's kind of like the idea that like like a moth to a flame. He's drawn to like You know loss of innocence type of Situations, but then why is he so innocent if he has witnessed all this loss of innocence? Okay, like I don't know that it says this and I might be giving it too much credit but like I think maybe the idea is that by being like The essence of innocence that he would be fascinated by its its absence But then how did he change so fast from day one to day three I'm just trying to give it a reason. I will not let you explain this book to me That's all I got And then it's like insinuated that wendy was abused by her dad in the same way And so it's all this dark stuff and then none of the characters have any consequences for this like holly It's just I don't know If you're gonna do something like that, which is pretty extreme with a childhood favorite Make it have a reason Well, yeah, I mean, that's what this whole book like I mean that's seen okay for sure You need to have a reason for that But like so many things like why do we have a scientific explanation for like some kind of something in the blood about the Agelessness why do we have characters which we haven't mentioned yet? Who have names that echo names in peter pan just popping up in real life in the present day who are not Actually supposed to be like transported from neverland, but they are nevertheless like there's a guy this name is hook And there's the you know, there's characters who have these names and that's Why why are they here? What does that mean? Why why is their magic blood? Why is peter pan both the peter pan, you know and not the peter pan, you know, why is he a horrible this Like why any of this like what was the point of this story? Like what were you trying to get us to go like oh an interesting subversion that makes me think of it differently or like What is your new message? What are we supposed to take away from this book other than horror? Well, the story you never heard. I think that is the point. It's like the story you never heard now. Um Alysia or Alyssa Alyssa, sorry for saying your name wrong. Yeah, that's that's um very true And that's what I'm even more confused by the scene though. I'm not gonna it's pretty explicit So I'm actually not gonna read it but like so he could have been a faking like he could have been being a fake out But then stuff he says later Doesn't make it sound like a fake out. So I guess it's just I think there need to be more clarity in that storyline and there's just it's never given clarity in my opinion Um, but like you said the other thing when how people keep showing up in their lives that are storytell characters Never explained in any sort of way shape or form or really no purpose like But also about this, um Uh, what's Holly's daughter's name eat? Eden Eden. Oh Eden age is faster than normal kids. So like the fact that the kid who plays with um, Holly's son Seems to be his age Doesn't mean that he is older than Eden in fact, he should be younger because by the time Eden wakes up She looks older. No, no, but his blood isn't special because it wasn't a darling So he aged normally I think it was only because peter pan and the darling had a kid Because the other kid didn't heal. I mean also. Yeah gave him trying to make it make sense it was just So that was definitely the most inexplicable part Nothing was explained. Yeah, see I think once you explain chapter 18 everyone's like never mind Oh madeline miller retelling peter pan. Now that's something I would read madeline miller miller retelling anything I'd be like sure Um, you know, and so the whole idea that she only read watched the peter pan movie I never read the book first because of the way peter pan is but second because she Like one of the things that was constantly mentioned throughout The book was a red feather And the red feather is not canonical to the book. It is canonical to the disney retelling which is fine I think that's fine. Like so many people are more familiar with the disney retelling But it does seem disingenuous when you're writing a book to be like it's a peter pan novel Like he at least explicitly say you only watched disney. I mean then it's a retelling of disney's peter pan It's not a retelling of peter pan and the only thing it references is j.m. Mary I'm like he's got nothing to do with this leave the man alone He didn't do this um Yeah, also, okay, so like I reread peter pan and I there was a I never Or okay, some of this I didn't know but one of it one of these things like I just forgot about it It was reminded of it that j.m. Barry like left the rights to the children's hospital To peter pan so that they could have all of the money that peter pan earns after his death to like just to help children and I'm just like reading this book where like This story is being dragged through the mud and j.m. Barry is low-key being dragged through the mud in this story and I'm just like How dare you Yeah, Dan Barry's. Yeah, it's kind of dragged through the mud in this. I didn't even think about that It's like excuse me. This was a real person Like he's not part of the fictionalized peter pan Like that's why there's a statue of peter pan in the uk. Um, I think it's outside the children's hospital um, I will say emily the book is a totally different experience from the disney movie um Completely different experience. Yeah, I mean I happen to like both but they are quite different Yeah, I I love the the cartoon as a kid. I don't really feel strongly about it as an adult but um I I mean the book made me tear up I was sitting finishing it in a parking lot and I was like crying at peter pan. I felt so stupid Um, it's a good book though But I mean the the musical with uh, well it was famously taped with mary martin But I mean they still put on the musical. I was obsessed with that mary martin musical And the musical is more or less like the original play because peter pan was okay Originally peter pan was a play and then he turned it into a book But so the play that was put on was not a musical that they didn't really do musicals Back then it was just a play and so then now the peter pan musical that does get put on to this day Um is kind of like they took the play and they changed it a little bit the story But mostly they just took the play and added music to it So like the closest you can get to the to peter pan without reading the book Is watching the musical I still think the book is More emotional though in a lot of ways about a lot of things But yeah, but I mean like if you're gonna I was in sales So there's no movie of it that is like very accurate The closest is like the musical which has been taped so you can watch that So that's like the closest you can get to being like the original story Yeah, I think um, and I mean I love the mary martin version. I need to show that to my kids I was like obsessed with that Like the shadow pop part that's the only one that we were allowed to watch when we were kids Like I made my one rent the disney one sometimes and she was like But we owned the mary martin one Um Yeah, so it's just I mean, yeah So there's just that where it's just like again if you have a retelling to know the source material And that's actually a problem we've had with all the retellings we've ranted about on this channel Is the lack of knowledge or understanding of the source material You have this idea like if you loved something and you want to retell it Wouldn't you want to understand the most you could about it because Or even if you hated something and that's why you wanted to retell it presumably You know it intimately enough that you can be like this is what I hate about it And like I get it. We're all tired of me talking about madeline miller whatever but like when you read searsay and son of akili You know that she knew What was being told and that's why the story works. Yeah, I mean, I don't even really like uh, Greek myth all that much I just like madeline miller. So like reading her book. It's not like It's like I don't I don't hate it. I don't love it. So it's not like I seek stuff out because I'm like Oh, it's a greek myth retelling must read. I'm more like the greek myth me myth retelling Who wrote it? I I didn't like pick it up automatically. It's more just that like I heard madeline miller specifically is amazing and I was like Okay, I'll read this and then I was like this truly is amazing. Like I I didn't previously really care about these myths that much I'm vaguely familiar with them because kind of everyone is and I took some classics classes So like I vaguely know what happened what went down in the iliad what went down in the odyssey Um, and I was like, okay, like this is a good cultural touchdown since it gets referenced a lot But she made me care like I I enjoyed that so much versus so like anything she chose to retell I'd be like, I'm sure you've got a plan and I'm sure it'll be great Yeah, um The thing is someone asked their shock. We didn't be an asset. There's two reasons one. It's like so short I read this intuitive. I flew through this thing man. This was again. Yeah, you were like reading it too fast I was like, it's not long It's not long and it's and it's the best kind of thing It's like so fast to read and it's so terrible You kind of do want to know what happens because the end does turn into like a murder mystery drug thing You're just like watching a train wreck that you can't look away from Peter is a drug dealer and he's dealing in pixie dust stand And I did keep hoping that as bad as it was that I was like, but there's gonna be Even if it's stupid, there's gonna be a reason for this, you know There's gonna be the twist reveal at the end that I'll be like that's dumb But like that ties this all together and I I get now even if it is dumb Why this was the way that it was and that never happened? That's why it was like what was the point of any it was like a drug deal and then oh, we haven't even talked about tinkerbell who I don't know if you watched it yet But low-key this book is like the same thing as the new rescue rangers movie Except the rescue rangers movie is like is taking the piss and is like kind of meant to be laughing at itself and making fun of that kind of thing But the peter pan that's in rescue rangers Is kind of the peter pan that's in darling girl. Okay. I gotta go watch it No, it's and so peter pan. Yes He becomes a drug dealer and it's like a murder mystery because he's stealing boys and trying this new drug on them because he wants to Find his youth again because he doesn't have his youth right now. I don't know. Don't ask me and well It's because he lost his innocence Because he lost his innocence see again Which implies that he lost his innocence with holly So again, maybe he lost it like Pretty immediate. Maybe he lost it like right before and then it was like Still riding the high of like having his magicness And you can't make it make sense lana. You can't because it doesn't and then I So yeah, we haven't even talked about the part that truly truly didn't make sense Which was eating trying to use her own blood. Okay. Yeah, but tinkerbell first Tinkerbell is like a crackpot Uh, I don't know. I probably shouldn't say that. Okay tinkerbell is like a drug addict weird like Tied to peter's state of mind. So she's like Really like out of it And sloppy, but then she like switches allegiance to the daughter eden And saves everybody I like I can't even explain like eden was in a coma for 10 years and then she wasn't I don't know how to explain tinkerbell was weird. Um I don't know how to explain it is the only thing you can possibly say about anything in this holly is a terrible Mother we talked about this. I don't say that lightly like she makes the most terrible choices Yeah, that was our biggest man drugs while we were reading it that actually does make more sense I think it would have made more sense. I think it would have made more sense Um, yes peter is having a bit of a life crisis. Yes. It's like legitimately what's happening in the look Yeah, he turns out like I don't know acne scarred or something. That's really weird. Um, which by the way just like us an aside and I've ranted about this before to other people um That i'm pretty tired of like Acne being used in books to be like this person's evil or dirty or gross and you know how we know It's because they have acne. I'm just like Really because you had acne scars and are even just like Peter's beautiful golden boy and now because he's actually lots of innocents. He's ugly Like they've done this whole thing about how like villains and bad people are always ugly Like the princes and the heroes are always beautiful and you're like, well, that's a weird message to send And it's a very very old school idea And and harmful idea and in this is an adult book for adults And and that's a thing so much of it as as insanely adult as this book was for so much of the content It was also childish Drug dealing is a time-honored antidote to loss of innocence. Yes Um, that's why I think it's so interesting. It's like such an adult book with so many adults Con so much adult content, but was childish. It was childish in so many ways and maybe You said maybe a point I was gonna say I thought maybe I think maybe you said this about it that it kind of felt like when like a young person not not a kid, but you know like A young adult He's like trying to be adult and is like trying to make something grown up and edgy and they're going to put in Curse words and sex and drugs and like everything they can possibly think of they'd be like Oh, this will be R rated because that'll make it dark and edgy and adult and you're like You're showing your childishness by doing that Yes, and that's I mean how old is should we learn author bio She doesn't seem like a young adult Um, but maybe that was the point of the book land Maybe I read somewhere that she was a journalist before she wrote this Yeah, that's what it said she She was writing it childish because it's supposed to be like You can never grow up. We have to tell you that you cannot make it make sense You cannot explain it And we didn't also talk about the other prior lost my mind out, which is when hook enters the picture Um, I had high hopes for that making sense, but She goes to meet a private investigator to help find her daughter the coma daughter who's gone missing There's so many elements. I'm so sorry guys. You're just never going to understand what's happening in this novel And like she goes there and he's like a rogue and I was like, oh great This is definitely going to be like the Peter Pan or the hook stand in which by the way again Maybe she hasn't watched or hasn't read Peter Pan But she watched like once upon a time because the description of this hook is very similar to like the once upon a time Well, I was about to say that in general I mean it has a very once upon a time feel where it's like modern times So there's these like random things like the red feather or like a guy named hook And you're like that makes sense for once upon a time where it's disney doing disney ip's And it's a character that you're expecting to show up And so when there's a red feather that's left that you're like Oh, it's gotta be Peter Pan in the next episode. We already know, you know, like but it's all disney And it also even then as dumb as once upon a time is There is always an explanation for like what has been going on and even though that explanation is like It's because this other disney ip cursed everyone and that's why this has been happening Like that's dumb But like there's a reason this has been going on like they have a plan For like this little plot arc even if it's silly and like that's We were already at like once upon a time level in this book So I was like expecting a once upon a time level explanation and I didn't even get that Yeah, I only made it to like season two or three whenever frozen showed up. I stopped watching So I don't know what happens later in once upon a time But I did once like the first couple seasons But yeah exactly like it I expected it to be the disney version of Peter Pan Or hope that showed up in a disney property But when you're saying it's a Peter Pan or telling I think of the book But this hook so he we show up. He's the private investigator. He's roga. She's like the once upon a time hook, but then like This is worse. Okay, we'll get there But then he does have a missing hand and there's a hook on it and you're just like We're so we're doing that Which again like that level of cheese in once upon a time It doesn't really take itself that seriously, you know It's like you're expecting to see disney characters and when they show up you're like wait Is it that is that going to be is that going to be it is that hook right there? You know, like it's like it's not that serious and there's no like But this is fairytale. I mean that's the theme. This is rooted in the real world It's not a fairytale. So fine. If you really want to To have that idea that it is hooked fine I can deal with like Because of the war he's missing an arm or something like I can deal with that but having the literal hook for a hand in our in the modern time was just And the way it's revealed Honestly, okay as dumb as this would be and that to be clear that would not make this a good book It would be very stupid But if like it turned out that she was you know, mentally ill and that like she was translating You know, it's one of those things where like, you know, you see the person who has a hook for a hand And like in their mind They're like that's actually like captain hook and like she's been piecing She's been making these connections that aren't there that she like someone did maybe like Essay her but like it wasn't peter pan but like because of her family's legacy she like That's how she coped with that trauma and she was like it was peter pan that did this to me And maybe her maybe because people do have those like uh aging diseases that like make you age really really fast So that's kind of what is described to be happening to eden So if she like is science lady who has darling money and has her in a coma and it's like her blood is magic And they're like it's not magic But we pretend it is because she's got the money and she hired us to keep her in this coma So like if that was the explanation that like she was loco and that she was the one making these connections And that like she specifically sought out a private investigator And maybe he's missing a hand but in her mind is like it's a hook and it's like it's not really but like in her mind It is Okay, so that sounds like a great thriller to be honest. Like maybe you don't know It's like an unreliable narrator and you don't know if she's telling the truth. They're not at the end She's not telling the truth. I'd read Um, it's like it's up there with the lake. They were dead the whole time or like she was crazy the whole time It's not great as a reveal, but like it would be better than what we got Um, was there a lot of leaning in this book? in the beginning the love story between holly and her original Yeah, husband was so stupid I honestly thought that he was gonna be a villain when Came on to her so fast. I was like, is that secretly peter pan and this is the evil peter pan right here But no he was Okay, cool. Everyone's a creep in this. It's great. Yeah, let's be clear Basically her husband like low-key stalked her. She didn't know at all who he was They drive three hours together and they get to the party. He's like, actually, I've known who you are this whole semester I sat next to you and I waited for you so I could drive you and she's literally instantly in love They start making out at the party right after he says that that is like what happened of everyone Her mom was there Like I think they started dancing or something and the mom is like, yeah, yeah, yeah you dance together and then like And it doesn't say that they left it doesn't say yeah, it doesn't say that they went to a different room It doesn't say they went off to the side. It just says that he started kissing her and I'm like Are they still dancing? What's happening right now? Um, which is worse this book or obi won I would guess this book because of chapter 18 It's this book it's this book because obi won even though it was stupid and fan servicey It didn't have chapter 18. Didn't have chapter 18. Let's keep it simple. It didn't have chapter 18 Which has permanently Altered me from this moment forward You know if I have to talk about books that have permanently altered me darling girl It has to be on the list and I mean once upon a time It did do the dark peter pan story because literally every single peter pan retelling Makes peter fan evil except for hook, but I don't like hook either. But I think we need to talk about how like It's so easy to make peter a villain because he's not necessarily a hero And so I just want to be like people read the book. He's not he's not a hero So it's like kind of easy and I think there are compelling ways to make him a villain villain I guess but just it gets tired. It just feels like once upon a time did it better Yeah, I don't even remember. I got to that. I don't really remember. I just remember hook was a good guy And most because he was hot, you know, so like again hook was again Hook was like a low key type where he's like, you know, he's he's now teamed up with the guys He's he's roguish But everyone's always like is he gonna actually go back to the dark side Yeah, that romance p.s between her and I don't know if over the main character was not on board But that's we don't need to talk about once upon a time. I don't barely remember that show Wait, her wait. What doesn't hook and that main character. Oh Emma Emma. I was thinking Bella swan, but it's Emma swan Right. Yeah. Anyway, those we don't need to talk about that. Um Yeah, it was and then the murder mystery was bad everything was stupid from start to finish I'll just put it that way And again, I've read some pretty bad thrillers and pretty bad mysteries But like at the very least, you know, it's like kind of bingeable and then, you know, there's some Unexpected shocking reveal and you're like in retrospect. That's dumb and in retrospect You did not set that up and the only reason that was surprising was because you didn't actually Like you tricked the reader. You actually didn't Set this up. That's why I could never have guessed that and so like that it's not a good book But at least, you know, I had, you know, it was a page turning story and the end surprised me Like that's the theory. That's the lowest of low bars For this type of story and I'm like Couldn't even say that, you know another book we read that was kind of like that Was the history of wild places If we were both I think I gave that a three stars. I don't know if you gave it lower than that. I would like I was entertained. It didn't make sense at the end. There was a lot of unexplainable things But I was entertained. It was fine. You know, we both kind of said that and like that's by the This goes to a new level because I think we both rated this one one star like where you just you Even if chapter 18 wasn't there it's just Hey, it's so rare that I read a book and really go Man, what was the author thinking or man? Who is this for because I can usually understand that but like I don't know. I read a lot of reviews about people who loved this, but although They were all arcs, which I feel like is a little suspicious, but it's a quote Peter Pan and then add an extra word Who and what art thou for? Yes Yes It's just like some of the people who really loved this. I I was really questioning like I seriously doubt There's anyone that likes the original Peter Pan story written by jam berry and likes this Like I think it's only the only possible way you could like this is if like you vaguely know who Peter Pan is And you're into like dark romance or something. Yeah, and I that's was the one thing. I was like, okay so maybe dark romance Maybe this hits like a dark romance thing, which like, okay fair. That's not my thing at all Um, but maybe that is a thing, but it's not marketed as that Well, I know it's marketed as a Peter Pan retelling and I don't know like Holly's mom is bad. She's a bad person. I was the other problem Like I could never root for Holly because I felt like she was making so many bad decisions Well, she's a terrible mother. Yeah, and not bad decisions in like an understandable way Not like when you read about somebody who's making bad choices. You're like, but I understand Why you're doing this. Let's talk about how her son doesn't remember his sister Oh my gosh Okay, I forgot I I sent you at least like five voice messages about that So I said let's talk about it. Do you want to do you want to introduce this? I feel like I've been talking a lot. So we uh, Hillary previously explained that like there was you know, two kids and a husband car crash Now there's one kid and no husband and then Peter Pan Um is the daddy for another child who is Eden and she is like these She's aging faster than she should but her blood makes other people anti-age Um and heal and so when they're kids, this is when it's discovered and like There's another there's like a an accident in the garden And so her blood heals the her son, um, like the daughter's blood heals the son's uh, you know, like Injuries or whatever. Um, but she goes into why does she go into a coma? So they're sitting on a tree together And the mom freaks out because the son can like barely walk still after the car accident And they both fall off the tree And so she gets seriously injured and then gets into a coma, but her blood gets on him Okay, I couldn't remember if that was what made her go into a coma. I think it is falling off the tree Yeah But anyway, so she's in a coma and there's no Can we talk about ages here? We need to talk about ages That he's like five years old. I think when this happens use five And the little girl is two even though she's like rapidly aging So she looks to him like she's like a rent near his age at that point. I think Oh, so then like and they visit her in the hospital for at least a year Yes, they do visit her in the hospital and I mean like they were playing together when they fell out of the tree and this happened So When we start the book she's living in america with her son and her daughter Who is comatose is still in the uk in the old in the old darling house? I think Or in an old house anyway in the house where the accident happened She's hired around the clock care for the daughter who's in that house But her son who is now it's been years the son is a teenager now He does not know he has a sister and it's not because he was told that she died He's been made to think like all trace of her has been erased They don't talk about her and as far as he knows he never had a sister at all in his life She's a big secret and so then when mom visits the uk to see the sister like he can't know why Even though it's the sister Who's comatose whose blood is being regularly taken to heal him because he will regress to like being broken Again if he doesn't get his sister's blood So she's basically being kept as a living blood bag in the uk and he doesn't remember her and doesn't know she exists And that's why holly is a terrible mother No, okay. Yeah, so the not existing thing is so weird not just saying the sister died but like He would remember that He would remember he had a sister he was like Seven years old by the time they stopped visiting her Even if he never saw her after the age of five like He would remember and um Yeah, and I had said some personal reasons why I was very positive that this would be the case and so it was just like So unbelievable to me that he has zero memory and then later it's like well I've had dreams about a little girl and I'm like shut up This is also like it's so strange her reasoning and justification for why she doesn't want him to know That and it's it's weird to say not to know because it's it's that she's actively forcing him to forget because he already knew It's not like something, you know like to say that you want to keep someone from knowing presumably They never knew it to begin with and you are actively preventing them from finding it out He did know he was around her And you are like gaslighting him So like I it's insane at least say like either she died Yeah, at least that but the reason that she doesn't want him to know is because it'll be too traumatizing because he already lost His father and his brother and it'll just be too much if he also like knows that he has a sister who's comatose And I'm like, how is it better to gaslight him? You know what the weirdest thing is like he also talks about remembering his twin brother Who died when he was two so we're supposed to believe that he doesn't remember the sister That's because mom didn't get those memories out of him I guess so that was already so unbelievable But yeah the thing and like I guess keeping the daughter alive if they thought she was going to get better Like I don't think it's like okay fine But hopefully she just I couldn't root for anything she was doing. She made such stupid decisions and it was just anyway That's probably so unbelievable. So this brings us to how eden's blood is making her age rapidly So that's why when they were kids she's like almost her brother's seemingly her brother's age And apparently this also speeds up cognition because she's like talking as well even though she's two years old Um, but so even though she's been in a coma all this time. She has continued aging rapidly. So she looks like Um older than her brother. Um, yeah, she's only like 10, but I think she looks like 15 or 16 or something I think older. I think she looks older eight 20s or 20s. Yeah But regardless but her blood for other people makes them heal and makes them d age and so they're keeping extras of her blood around, you know, a supply of it And eden tries using aren't they putting some of it in their cosmetics too? I think so. I think that's what makes the blood in the cosmetic company, which Side note, she goes to link saying like I would never use the darling name only this one time But like she has a multi-million dollar company using her daughter's blood for the cosmetics She's literally keeping like a human blood bag and we're supposed to sympathize with it because she's not written Do you see what Matt said every family should have a designated blood bag sibling So true It's again, like so I already pitched maybe she's crazy as like a possible way to make this book make some kind of sense And be interesting Okay, but part other pitch is that make her unlikable like don't make us try to root for her You know, like she's doing such terrible things And like it could be an interesting story if it's about, you know, like I've said before like, you know About norwegian wood like I don't have to like your main character I am concerned if the narrative rewards that character's behavior, which makes me think you think this is fine Which is kind of or rewards them in a way that seems like you are rooting for them Yeah, because you could have a narrative about about a bad person who gets rewarded Yeah, yeah, yeah No, I guess I mean where you know, you're showing it in a way where you're like you're meant to sympathize with this character um and I She does such terrible things and if this was a book about, you know, this like kind of Not crazy the way I pitched before not like, you know, schizophrenic or something but like where she's I don't know She's that cruel and that self-serving that she's literally willing to use her child Just to like she uses it on herself to like de-age and heal herself her child's blood And she uses it to make money for cosmetics Like if she was using it at the very least if she was like Um, it was only to keep the sun alive. Honestly. I wouldn't judge her that much But if she was like spearheading, you know Like medical research and she had a program to like cure incurable diseases using this blood I'd be like that's greater good. But cosmetics That's literally just lining your Younger with pixie desk liana Because like presumably with the nebulous inexplicable ways this blood seems to function so like I don't know But I think that there's no reason to think it wouldn't work this way that it could heal Again, like pretty incurable maybe genetic conditions and I'm like you could use the blood for that But no, but no, no, why would she just about her son? and uh It's really I mean it seems like it's for selfish reasons that she's keeping the knowledge from him that he had a sister because like When she's like it'd be too much for him I I read it as you feel like it would be too much for you to deal with him Having emotions about this and you don't want to deal with it And so it's better to just gaslight him and make him think he never had a sister Well, and there's like this whole weird storyline She's so worried that he's gonna regress back to his previous like injuries If he doesn't take the blood every month, which makes no sense because she has said that it permanently cured part of her injury So there's no evidence that he would go fully back like he'd probably go a little back Well, there is because I think he starts to when he runs out of the supply Correct, but that makes no sense is all I'm saying But so she has this thing like where she's super over protective of him He never she never wants him to do anything. She doesn't want him to drink She doesn't want him to do any drugs potentially or like get injured Because that could stop the efficacy of the blood I know they're getting And again, this is not the villains that are doing it Peter Pan is the villain the good guys are using Her that her own daughter as a blood bank like that's a villain behavior It's fine. I get people are bad parents and books since of all the time But we're just supposed to it's written like Holly is a good parent But anytime she sees her son doing things she doesn't want him to do like she comes home And he's like drinking a beer that she he was like trying to hide and drinking a beer with his friends she reacts in just like The textbook this is the way a parent should not ask and you're supposed to be like, oh she cares so much And I was reading like what are you doing? What's amazing about that scene too is that okay, so she needs to she's gotten a call that you know I think this is when Eden is missing So like he's in a coma and now she's just missing so and at this point He still has no idea because he's been made to forget that he has a sister So she needs to invent an excuse to go to england But to take care of this but to tell her son a reason that she's going to be gone And so then I forget I think her flight gets changed so she comes home But you know because she's actually going to get a flight the next day or something And so he's expecting her to be gone And that's why he's like having a friend over and like I think they're like smoking weed or something like that And she's really pretty mild. Yeah Yeah, and so she comes home and she like flips out about this and what's amazing about that is the hypocrisy Of like you were you lied to him about where you're going because you've been lying to him his whole life Because you've been gaslighting him and making him forget that he has a sister and now you have to go and deal with that And so you're mad at him Because he was taking the advantage of you not being home to like hang out with his friend and smoke some weed Like where do you get the nerve? Do you have no sense of irony? Do you have no like self-awareness like? Yeah, it's like you lied to me and it's like I get that you're upset, but like I think Like what she's doing is way worse by like any metric than what he is doing Well, I mean you would consider there was no point where I didn't think any of his behavior seemed like a very very very normal teenage Behavior, he's not going on doing like cocaine. He's not not like doing any, you know It seemed like a very normal like when she's like super angry with him because he like plays sports And is reckless in that sense and so like but you know You have to take this blood so that she won't be broken And I'm like if this really was such a big deal and he's not allowed to know Like because it seems like he doesn't even know why he's taking the blood because then he'd have to know about his sister He thinks it's iron It's like iron shot I guess but then the once again like you're lying to him about his own body and his own condition Which is also awful, but so like if it was like if you just told him if you Because the whole thing is like you're just like if you just told him Then we wouldn't have a plot That's true. We wouldn't have a plot So like there's this other thing like okay So there could be something interesting about like a mother being way overly self-protected because she knows her son could Regrat and he doesn't know he like that there's something in there Like I'm not saying there's not but because this book has the subtlety of a sledgehammer Like none of that can come through because you might think that plot point makes sense But the way it's written it just does it but also like she clearly has no qualms about lying to her son So why doesn't she just tell him that he has like a brittle bone condition and that he can't play sports? Yeah, done like it's done Why are you like freaking out that he's playing lacrosse and like playing too hard because oh You don't even have enough blood to cover this and he he doesn't know about the blood thing But it's stressing you out because you have this secret stash that's running low and now she's missing or whatever But you know, here's your iron supplement. Don't catch salmonella from the potatoes like Well, I feel and you know, I was empathizing with the sun So much because like his mom was freaking out because he made a friend He like makes a friend in england he ends up going to england long story He makes a friend and they just want to go play lacrosse together, which is like the most Wholesome activity like he just wants to go play lacrosse and she like freaks out at him And it's like yeah as her son, I would also be very frustrated if like you told me not to do everything I was doing with no reason see that exactly it's the thing That's that you you could invent a reason if you're not willing to tell him Why because you actually do have a pretty legitimate reason to want him to not do that But if you refuse to tell him that actual reason then make one up Make one up or you just have to deal with his choices and hope it works like Oh that part was stupid. I forgot about all that and I forgot when till you brought it up Peter had another son and that's the person they make friends with he makes friends with in england I forgot how stupid that was too that kid is the brother or nephew of nana The brother the younger brother. Yeah of nana And that's never explained why there's someone called nana why there's someone called hook Why they're just like popping up. There's some they she doesn't even notice like she notices, you know Hook being hook and she notices nana being nana her best friend is named barry That's what I was about to say But she never thinks to herself isn't it weird that my business partner is named barry like jm barry But no that never occurs to her but the nana thing and the hook thing do occur to her Well, but then the mom says that the mom is like, isn't it funny that your best friends barry And nana and hook and all this thing and that's like literally the only conversation about it Isn't it funny that the peter pan story just follows us and you're like you think that's going to be something You think you're like all of it's a manifestation. No Never comes back again. It's just a conversation. I was like, are you seeing that maybe peter pan isn't forever young It's just that all of these characters kind of reincarnate every generation. I remember that was a good theory When has that have been great? It would have been something. I don't know if it would have been great, but it would have been something So again, it just it contributed to the Randomness of like someone sitting down being like I just want to use all the peter pan characters in fact, I think I told you this like What it really felt like was she wrote a story and then Skinned it with peter pan like it was just like re-skinning it like in a video game dressing on it Yes, thank you window dressing sounds out of them skinny Oh window dressing on it So like you could take out the peter pan elements and they have like this basic stupid thriller But she was like, but if I make it peter pan And that's a trick unsuspecting innocent readers into reading this Exactly if you can take out your inspiration for the story And not make it matter Like you could tell the same story without peter pan and it wouldn't matter. That's a problem Honestly, I would have more respect for something that was just a dark romance where peter pan is, you know Not a little boy is like, you know, a hot youngish man who's like forever young and can fly played by um, ben barns I mean Sure, it's not really where my mind goes I I hate ben barns. And so I feel like he'd be the perfect person to play a dark romance of Peter pan But I mean like if you book was literally that, you know Where it was just like and it's not her being a terrible mom using her daughter as a blood bag Just, you know, like a weird dark, you know questionable consent peter pan romance because that's your like fantasy Like, you know what go off do it make the cover, you know a very sultry peter pan standing in the window Do it and I'll know not to read that and I'm sure many people will read it and enjoy your life But I will avoid that because I want to enjoy my life And I think that's it's so true. It It Pretended to be something it wasn't see exactly that it pretended to be something it wasn't I think again if it just was like We're doing a dark peter pan romance. I have respect for that again I wouldn't read it because like we aren't meant to I don't think The into peter pan and what he did with and to her Yeah, I could look this is what I'm not going to read the whole thing but like In this beautiful reimagining of jay and barry's classic Beautiful Disagree In this beautiful reimagining of jay and barry's classic one woman must take on the infamous peter pan Who is not the innocent adventure the fairy tale makes him out to be to save her daughter's life So already there it's it's not acting like it's a dark romance, right? It's like this feminist needs to save her daughter's life Beautiful reimagining And let me know what beautiful was peter pan is you know the There's a lot to work with to make him a villain because in the original story. He's selfish He is a hot headed. He is impulsive. He's got control issues So like these are yeah, and so these are all things like this canonically is a problem for peter pan him essaying someone And being a truck dealer. These are not canonically peter pan issues Wait wait Darling girl brings all the magic of the classic peter pan story to the present While also exploring the dark underpinnings of fairy tales grief aging sacrifice motherhood And just how far we will go to protect those we love But I disagree and it also remains entirely unclear if neverland exists or Or what it is if it is but but the thing that bothers me is it's saying it It also gets to explore grief aging sacrifice and motherhood Which I would argue are all four things that are actually present in the original peter pan story In a much better format. All that stuff is in there, especially if you know Jam berries like why he wrote that and like his brother dying Well, all that stuff is technically in darling girl. It's just not well explored But those were like air is aging in it. Yes There is mother What I don't like is that it says It brings the magic of the class of peter pan, but it it says but also Explored and it's not a but because the original peter pan Explores those things and so again, it just reeks with this lack of understanding of what the original peter pan even was One person gave it five stars one person wrote I read this so you don't have to I read that good read to read the I read it so you don't have to I was like, thank you. I did read it, but I wish I agree with you um And so I think again, it's just like It sounds like elitist when I say that I don't mean it in elitist way, but it's like you just clearly didn't understand The original peter pan. No, she just didn't read it. She didn't read it We I because there's no way that you read peter pan and misunderstand the hat having a red feather on it like it's not Like that's not a thing. It's fine. Maybe she read it and wanted to do the disney version like okay fine Because that's like one of the more not the more famous version But like up to a lot of modern people like that's the version people know But again, it just it I really Several times questioned if she'd ever read the book and there's a chance she did even once upon a time He did not have the red feather outfit Like he didn't look like disney's peter pan because even once upon a time like likes to like subvert The disney character and make them look a little different from what you would expect So even disney who was got full license and you would not question it and it's not even dumb given the Project of once upon a time for a red feather to show up and to be the hallmark of theater pan and you'd be like That must be pan was here But like they don't even do that because they've drawn the line of that would be stupid I mean, yeah, we should actually mention the red feather So the red feather shows up as like he doesn't wear it but like where he's been There's like a red feather and often you'll also hear a rooster crowing And It's so funny because every time the rooster crows. I knew it was her trying to be like Like you were supposed to be like, oh spooky And it just made me laugh out loud every time this book had zero Atmosphere zero descriptive detail zero character development like okay. Can you describe to me what holly looks like? Um, she looks like wendy What does wendy look like a peter pan version? I'm just saying she looks like the cartoon version of wendy They are never described like I have no Not in the good reads good reads review. They said You like try to tell me the characteristic of any character, but you can't tell me fully what's in the mom's garden Like that's the only thing that's described in the entire book is like this one garden scene Like you have no idea what anyone looks like who anyone is Um, once on time sounds dope. I'm going to check it out. Yeah, it's really cheesy just warning you But it's a fun time I watched the whole thing progressively worse Yeah, well, that's why we um, we watched a single episode when frozen showed up and the frozen actresses were so bad Or the script was so bad. We stopped immediately Just quick aside about once upon a time. What's funny about it? Just like in general across all of the entirety once upon a time if it's like an og well known existing classic disney character like Captain hook like peter pan like all of Aladdin sleeping beauty those ones then without fail They would subvert it somehow where they'd be like this character doesn't look like how you imagined This character is flipped in some way. This character is like their hair is different Their outfit is different. They're something about it. It's different because like surprise that this is actually cinderella um, whereas all of the new ones Anything that came out within the last or for once upon a time within like five years of once upon a time Like frozen like brave like a new age ips. Yeah They look exactly like carbon copies like came alive out of your tv screen To look like every inch of it looks like the character from the movie And it's just so funny that like the old characters. They're like, oh, we have to do a twist on it So it's interesting But the new ones they're like no you want to show exactly what it looks like so you're like that's Elsa You're like that's marita and I have to say I didn't like the frozen arc But I did like they had marita and moulin as friends and like Together for fighting and I was like, okay, I do very much like this I think the first season at least of the three of that we saw I guess it's three I think it was three the first was definitely the best because it was the tightest storytelling and then I kind of like Just except the captain cook is not in the first season and he is the only reason to watch the show after it starts being bad That's true. I did like him um but yeah, so It was inexplicable in every way It was stupid um, it was offensively bad It was offensively bad um That covers it pretty much. I will You know, it's funny because we read this book going into it thinking it would be bad And the thing is usually when I set such low expectations. I usually like something more So like we went in there's been like this was probably going to be bad. So I thought like when I read it Like I'd be like, okay, that was bad But it wasn't like bad bad because you know, I gave half the shadows 2.5 stars So I was thinking it was going to be like 2.5 stars bad like I get it. You tried something you didn't do it. Well, but I'll give you the you tried And then it was like wow You really just went there I I really did not I I could not have imagined It being this bad like even if I'd go I went into it with like middle expectations. I was like, this is probably going to kind of suck um I if I had gone into it Like if someone had with no details had been like, this is truly the worst Peter Pan retelling that has ever existed I'd be like, okay. I mean, it's it's probably going to suck I could not have nothing could have prepared me Because you've said you've read a bunch of bad Peter Pan retelling So I think if someone said that you'd be like, okay, I've I had one that I regarded as the worst Peter Pan retelling ever and it is amazing I am so sorry to that book. I'm not sorry because it also sucked but like That's how low that's like the lowest point that I thought we could get to and I'd be like this book that we're about to read I was like worst case. It'll be that bad But it found a new low It's not so fun when things just find a new low. I do I just do question like well this got published this Got chosen for book of the month Got chosen for book of the month. I mean, I'm not actually surprised by that. I actually so I got rid of my book of the month Um, I have one last month remaining and then it'll be gone and I think it's because like all of their fantasy It's usually mediocre. It's not It's usually mediocre fantasy not terrible fantasy, but I do think Book of the month fantasy books tend to go for a certain reader that doesn't read any fantasy um And and these are like accessible to the demographic sort of thing Um, because when I looked at it on book of the month, this had like a 60 like rating Which in fairness is low which is but that's why I would have expected this to be like a mediocre lit Vicki two to three star It's kind of nods at feeder pan not this yeah um Yeah, I mean Yeah, like this is the kind of book that I would expect to be like What's hot on tick tock because it's some spicy weird dark thing that everybody on tick tock is obsessed with Like and then I'd be like, yeah, I'm not gonna read that. I've planted barbarians What you did I splitted barbarians is so sweet and wholesome compared to darlin girl I think I think the big difference is again again I splitted barbarians is not trying to be anything it isn't it is upfront those covers It's thing. It knows it wants to be a romance. It wants and it is very consent for I have heard that a fun alien romance and you know what it's not for me, but I don't care Good you don't try it's that that's the big thing is this pretend it's pretending to be something that's not It's pretending to be this deeply serious deeply dark look Pan examination in the modern day that deals with deeper darker more adult themes and you're just like Yes Exactly. So I just don't like that. It's pretending to be better than it is. Do we know if this is um a debut? I believe it is Oh darlin girl. It's her second novel Should I go look up what her first novel? Yes Okay, you entertain them while I look this up Oh, well, I mean, yeah, I've read a lot of feeder pan retellings. Like I you sent me to I'm really excited to read You sent me two good ones And I guess that even the ones that are bad and there are a lot are miles in a way better than darlin girl Because it took her 11 years to write darlin girl It took her the same amount of time to write darlin girl as it took madeline miller To write song of achilles, but during those 11 years was she actively writing or I don't know That's like, I mean when you say that does that mean you had the idea 11 years ago And then it finally went to print like yeah I'm just saying no no the only reason I said that's because her first book was published in 2011 And this was published in 2022. I have no idea how long she worked on it Well, she you know, she didn't view during the interim is read Peter Pan but That is true. Okay. It's called even fall and the little blurb under it is ghosts don't give up I'm gonna read what I'm picturing chapter 18 ghosts. No Um, we're on amazon. Okay Frank wildermouth. Oh wait wait in life frank could have had any woman he wanted In death, he'll try to win back the one that mattered Frank wildermouth always regretted a mistake he made as a teenager choosing Clara murphy over her sister gert And like a true murphy woman gert got on with her life never admitting to heartbreak Not even now decades later with frank dead dead that is but not quite gone Now Did you just say dead twice? It's a dead twice Now decade later with Fred dead dash dead. Yeah, he's dead dead Yep, that is but not quite gone now frank's niece andy murphy is going back in town to settle his estate And she sees that things have changed in heartman connecticut Aunt gert still drives her crazy but court the wide-eyed farm boy. She used to babysit is all grown up with a whole new definition of the world's sleepover Even freaky are the whispers either andy's losing her mind or something She can't see is calling out to her something that insists on pulling her in the path. Let's go back I really hope she's losing her mind in that one because losing her mind the babysit. Did you miss this line? The kid she used to babysit Now is all grown up with a whole new definition for the word sleepover Yeah, so basically what you're saying is that we should have seen darling girl coming I wonder if this looks YA or for adults. I can't tell please. Okay, please tell me it's for adults because like YA would be the kid getting babysit Oh, it doesn't say YA um This the cover just doesn't look um It looks more YA that's like gonna It's not gonna show you my camera doesn't like it. It's just focusing on your face. Yeah, I know But that you see what I'm saying. I just kind of it's like really exact. Well, honestly, it looks like uh Unlike darling girl. This looks like it belongs, you know in a more like Romancey That's that type of shelf. It's staying in its lane more than uh darling girl Which you know in fairness the author does not have control over the cover or the marketing So like we can't be completely angry with the author for the miss marketing and the lack of warnings Um about darling girl. Very very true. In fact after a bunch of complaints I actually know that book of the month. I think added trigger warning. Yeah, I saw that so that was really interesting Which I hope they also did with lessons in chemistry because that's another one the book of the month was like This is basically like the fint of the marvelous mrs. Maisel But like feminist and chemistry and blah blah blah and there is two on page essays in it and I was like That that is not what arena is expecting. Doesn't that have a really cutesy cover? Yes. Yes, it does And again, like that's the kind of thing where like If you're more if you're pitching it as marvelous mrs. Maisel like no one is picking this up expecting that that yeah Um, you want to talk about the good peter panry collings that you sent me. I didn't bring them down. I should have sure um So It's longer that I've read I read lost boy a little more recently than alias hook alias hook it's been a little while but alias hook I remember giving like five stars and the author like contacted me after and was like i'm so glad you liked it um, so but they're they're different in that one is Hey, I don't want to say the phrase it's like darling girl But it's more like darling girl and that it is the continuation. It's not a retelling of the whole peter pan story So alias hook is like, okay So at the end of peter pan hook gets swallowed by the crocodile. What happens after that? In neverland with hook So like that's what alias hook is about and then lost boy is like the opposite of the spectrum It's like the before the darlin kids show up how they how peter pan and hook Get to be in neverland and get to be The rivals and nemeses that they are Yeah, i'm excited to read them um In attempt to erase my brain of capri team and they're both quite different But like what they do which I mean even the bad peter pan retellings do this more than darlin girl did Is demonstrate a knowledge understanding and awareness of the original peter pan story and are attempting to do something with that So like Yeah Because like i mean in both of them because in every single peter pan retelling peter pan is the villain and lost boy and alias hook Your like main character your protagonist is hulk because it always is Yeah, but they're like, you know opposite ends of like life spectrum, but they're both like They're both taking like what I said were existing canonical issues with peter pan Reasons you would already have like if you read the original peter pan You're like, I mean, I kind of get why hook is like kind of annoyed With peter pan like you already kind of side with him in the original So you really don't have to do a lot to nudge a story further in that direction um That's really yeah, I mean again It's it's like peter is the exaggeration of the childhood selfishness and hook is the exaggeration of maybe like the parent Who's like done with their kid at this moment at bedtime? I don't like like in every peter pan movie and play the actor that plays the father plays hook Yeah, I think that's a very funny funny touch um Yeah, so don't read the book unless you Want what we just talked about but do you read peter pan? I do read peter pan. That's the end um And that's basically what my review said that I posted a peter pan review I don't know like a month ago or something And just like yeah, wow that book really blew me away was one of the classics I really just kind of took me by surprise. I was like Like they're classic for a reason but at some point you think that they aren't going to be relevant to you somehow anymore and it was so relevant And I just I always find that really interesting just rereading it. Um this time I like Arrived at a conclusion or at least I think this is the case, but it would kind of explain why I love it so much There is something game and ask about peter pan Because like the way that especially the way that game and writes children's literature Where there's like a lot of like cheeky like I don't know it's not necessarily fourth wall breaks, but it's like commentary on stuff Yeah, and then like the way something magical will happen. It'll be like But of course, this is how that would work even though like Like it talks about something inexplicable. Like there's like a part about like peter pan And the stars and about him flying near them But how they kind of get irritated with him because you know, he like tries to fly behind them and blow them out And like it's stuff like that where it's like you haven't actually explained any of how this is supposed to work And game and never does but you're still getting this kind of like layered whimsical Snarky kind of sense for like how this all fits together and like the way that the parents in peter pan are like They're not like fully fleshed out characters and their attitudes are kind of funny and and they're kind of caricatures But they still have a lot of like stuff that like parents nowadays reading it could be like I Like when the whole the whole thing about the father insisting the kids will eat have their medicine I was just gonna bring up the medicine. I freaking love that scene so the medicine scene is so Funny where he's like basically just like just take it and I'm like you take it He's like lying because he doesn't want to like So relatable like not in that way. It's a character tour like you said, but the whole thing is relatable I think every peter pan also like does this scene because it's like pretty iconic when he's like angry And he's like this tie won't tie mother And he's like it'll tie around the bed post, but it won't tie around my neck Oh, no, oh no, and he won't tie around my neck that i'm not going to dinner if I don't go to dinner Then we're not going to get this account and like usually in a play you just hear that dialogue, but in the book Um, it says, you know, oh, and then you know, mrs. Darling went over to fix it Which is the real reason that he came in there in the first place is hoping that she would do that Because he's like literally saying like that's what he wanted He's like and some men would like feel embarrassed about having their wife do it But mr. Darling didn't you know that like he's like a okay with her doing it for him It's and it's yeah It's very funny and even like it is because one of the things I said is like technically the disney version of peter pan Has the scenes in them, but it loses a little bit of the adult wit To the scenes like we have a lot of it is in between the dialogue even like in the play version Like that scene like the mary martin one He's has that whole conversation But unless you have a narrator dune style who's going to tell you that dialogue about how like he wanted her to do it Like there's no one who could say that in the scene or even just like when the dad Pretends to be the dog in the dog house like that scene. It's so much funnier in the book Because it just takes on a layered meaning. It's like it's very different With that extra narration and so um, yeah, and a kid could read peter pan and they would get something out of it completely Um, the only thing I said is look it has swearing in it. I mean, it's funny But like for my young young kids, I wouldn't let them read that word, but You're reading it out loud to them. You can just yeah, I could just change it. Yeah. Yeah, you you want to gaslight your children gaslight your children um I mean that made tinkerbell ten times funnier that Like I had a new approach. I I was obsessed with tinkerbells Like oh that's like my parents had to hide the costume because I'd wear it 24 seven and so like I was like Oh, I knew what I was about. I like I didn't know but now that I read the book like I chose the right person team to be on Anyway, read peter pan. Don't read darling girl the end pretty much And pretty much never I was like pretty much never read peter pan retellings Because the odds of you if it being a good one are so Slim I really honestly the only reason I read this is because I really needed to use my book of a month credits And you were like I'm getting this bad retelling. I was like great idea me too We got this out of it We got this out of it I just feel like peter pan is one of those stories that people Arrogantly think they know and can retell and the truth is they don't well, and yeah, I think um retelling is just are going to take a lot of skill because presumably What you're retelling is well known and it's probably well known for a reason I mean not always but it's and if it's not well known and it won't people won't be interested in it because they're like I don't know the story of retelling and if it's really well known it was probably done really well Which means there was probably a lot of skill On behalf of the author and so it takes as skilled of an author To be able to bring up like which is like, you know madeline miller is really rare because she's extremely skilled as an author so she can bring other skill things for life and um So I just think like retellings. I think people think retellings are way more accessible than they are unless I guess you're doing the dark academia specifically romance like very in a way not trying Well, it's funny you say dark academia because I have argued that the best peter pan retelling in the world is the secret history of I don't a tart and it's accidentally a peter pan retelling Yeah, like I don't think the donna tart. I'm not arguing that that was her intention But it's low key. It works. You say it works is that yeah But it's also like uh Whenever I see people refer to peter pan as a fairy tale It really irks me because I'm like it's not j.m. Berry wrote this You know, I didn't put it in my fairy tale fantasy thing. I've had a video Reviews will say that and retellings will say that. Oh, it's a retelling of the famous fairy tale peter pan I'm like it's the same like alison wonderland and peter pan are two I don't know if it's because disney made them or because they're just so much in the zeitgeist that like people think of them This also calls it a fairy tale But like those two fairytales though Yeah, so like I there's they get retold in the same frequency in the same way that like beauty and the beast and syndrome And I guess I know that like the grims brothers and haunts christian anderson like they set down these stories but nevertheless like they kind of like codified a specific version of them But it was a story that was like in their In their land in their culture that was being told and they just kind of like set it down in a more solid way Like this is canonically how the story goes even though it's like 50 versions But we wrote down this one But they didn't author it the way that jay and berry and louis carol authored their stories And I it's weird the structure of fairy tale when you think of a fairy tale is very different than peter pan or alison wonderland Fairy tales are very short They are very high level um You know they have like this little lesson It's very different like when you because I read the little mermaid and I have a Grimm's fairy tales that I'm going to go through the original like their originals And they're just they're very different. They're also quite grim And they're also quite grim that is also true But yeah, that's it's just like it really really irritates me when I see that It's again a misclassification a misunderstanding But it's it's also it's just not giving credit where credit is due like don't call this a fairy tale Like are you are you also going to say lord of the rings is a fairy tale? Like no j.r.r. Tolkien wrote that Jay and berry wrote that louis carol wrote that so stop it and stop dragging them through the mud with your terrible retellings But no one retells lord of the rings. I was just gonna say I don't think I've heard anyone retell lord of the rings I don't think anyone's brave enough to take that although Arguably the entire fantasy genre is just retelling the lord of the ring No, there's that great croat by terry proctor that I talk about all the time. Sorry. I'm just like I'm getting hot So I'm just putting putting my hair up here. Um, there's that great quote I don't know if you've heard it by terry pratchett that lichens tolkin to Mount fiji baby in all of like japanese paintings or whatever It's like it's always there. You can always see tolkin sometimes. It's really close Sometimes it's really far away and then if it's not in the picture It is because the person deliberately decided they were not going to put it in the picture And basically talking about like you can't basically write anything in fantasy without It being a direct response like it's either present or it's conspicuous bias absence Exactly like you have chosen specifically not to put it in Um, and there's like a middle earth shape hole in your story in your story. Um, I've always liked that because Yeah Lord brings is amazing something we can agree on I think yeah, we can agree on that Apparently it's an irritating or hot take that I put it on my list of all-time best fantasy Yeah, it's on my top 10 list of all-time best fantasy I literally know that video You know what it is it's people Wanting to be cool. It's people being like We've moved past the lord of the rings and I'm like, have you read the lord of the rings recently at the I literally said in that video I was like just because people read them does not make like they didn't stop being good because people read them Yeah, like it's funny. Um, this is my deep dark secret. Actually, it's not I think I put it in my video Yeah, it's amazing. Um When I had because I didn't relore the rings until I was an adult like somehow I missed that as a kid I didn't even read the hobbit. I didn't read it until I think it was like 2016 um And I actually had this idea this is way before my youtube But I was thinking about starting to buy it. This is almost at a point I thought I'm going to read the lord of the rings. I've seen all the movies and I loved the movies and I was like I'm going into reading lord of the rings with a specific purpose of being like they're overrated I was like, I'm going to be like the movies are better So do they do they really hold up? So I went in like which is the worst thing to do but I went in trying to prove a purpose And then I read them and I was like, oh, so this is like art. Okay um Shame on me for pretending that one of the most famous stories of all time. It's somehow overrated It is pure art. Everyone who says there's too many songs are crazy. It's like they're all relevant Anyway, and I don't want to get on a lord of the rings brand We're the most part stories that stand the test of time There's a reason and like that doesn't mean that every single one is going to be your cup of tea It doesn't mean every single one is going to hit with you, but like There's usually a a good reason why people are still reading them I'm still talking about it Yeah, it's like peter pan But not darling girl Um All right, did we miss anything is there anything in darling girl that we didn't cover? Well, I just don't think you're going to ever truly understand it without reading it, but that's pretty better I like that you're suggesting that it could be understood when one has read it We have read it and do not understand it. It is inexplicable. Don't read it I think when we both finished it, we were like, but but why but but for what but like But what was the point of that? What when where why? And what art thou for All right, so never again never ever ever again, but we'll probably be back to rant about something Always something to rant about always something you and me Because we do uh at least our negative opinions tend to align Our truly negative opinions tend to align anyway There's a couple in there that don't but we don't need to talk about that It's still those are the exceptions Those are the exceptions to the rule Well, it's always if there's an upside to reading a bad book. Yeah, it's ranting about it with you So, thank you. Thanks for going on this awful journey We felt like Frodo at the end of Lord of the Rings like it's done It's done It's finished Now take me across to take me across the sea And with that take us uh take us away and we'll enjoy the rest of our evenings Go everybody go read Peter Pan. That's your homework