 Dear colleagues, dear guests, the members of the ITM, my name is Maria Ursin, I will be your moderator here today. Welcome to the Wednesday keynote on climate justice in Safi. After the keynote, there will be a short conversation between me and today's guest of honor, and there will also be a possibility to ask some questions. So be aware. It is, ladies and gentlemen, such a great honor to introduce today's speaker. Ayla Gesquitalo is the former president of the Sami Parliament of Norway. She was the president for three terms and for the predominant part of my grown-up life, actually. So I'm a little bit starstruck today. Looking so much forward to hearing you, Aylae. So welcome, and the floor is yours. Bori Edit, good morning. Bori Holomott, ladies and gentlemen, I bring greetings from Sami, the ancestral homeland of the Sami indigenous people. And as I stand here today, I am reminded of this beautiful day in April. Capture on this photo taken on the plains of Finmark, or as we say it, Duotar. Some might refer to it as Tundra. And did you know that the word Tundra actually is derived from the Kildin Sami language, describing the treeless mountain plains of the Arctic? It is a somewhat disconcerting thought that climate change is causing trees to grow where they should not. Will there be trees covering our Duotar, Tundra, one day? Perhaps the only memory of Duotar will be the word itself. And my daughter's daughters may not even remember what a Duotar should be like. Our indigenous knowledge is entrenched in the Sami language, our collective memory. What will we do if the world we know changes? Will our knowledge collected through generations of experiences still guide us to the future? Sápmi, the Sami homelands, are located in the northern part of Europe, encompassing Fenoskandia and the Kola peninsula. In Sápmi, we have cultural heritage sites that document more than 10,000 years of continuous habitation. And about 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, the first traces of our distinct culture began to emerge, seen through ornaments and through burial sites. We did not come from any other place. Sápmi is the cradle of Sami culture and people. As described by our great national poet and artist, Ayloharsh Nilsaslak Valkiope. He eloquently portrayed Sápmi both as a hard and cold rock cradle and a warm and soft embrace. And the yoyk, where he used these words, was chosen as our national yoyk during the last joint Sami conference in August. We are the people of Sápmi, but the states have drawn borders through our homelands and altered them many times. They have forcibly relocated us, attempted to erase our languages and culture, stolen our sacred objects, ridiculed and persecuted our leaders. And in some ways, they continue to assimilate us by encroaching upon our land bit by bit. The road is dalot. The iron trolls are drawing near. As the Sami rap artist Ayloh Valle says in his song, it's pushing our way of life closer to a total collapse into the abyss. This forced shrinking of Sápmi has been happening for centuries. However, in recent years, we have faced a new challenge in addition to assimilation policies, arbitrary borders, and the so-called modernization. It is a known fact that the Arctic climate is changing at a faster rate than in other parts of the world. And climate change is not occurring in isolation. It brings along with it a companion called climate mitigation. It is a harsh irony that climate change wrecks havoc on the sensitive ecosystems of Sápmi, while simultaneously making it more accessible for various forms of industrial development. And this irony is further heightened by climate mitigation efforts encroaching upon what remains of our land, such as renewable energy production and critical mineral extraction. I refer to this as green colonialism. We are familiar with colonialism. We have witnessed it before, and we share this experience with many other indigenous peoples. It is when our land and resources are stolen and exploited without our consent, with the profits being exported. The only difference from historical colonialism is that this new form of colonialism is adorned in green, supposedly benefiting the climate and the environment. However, it is devouring our land, the foundation of our culture, consuming the last remnants of what some may call wilderness, but is, in fact, our home. My heart mourns when I see the artificial lake of the hydroelectric dam that now covers my great grandmother's summer campsite. And it cries when I witness the pulse, the balsat, a traditional resting place where we used to gather for coffee breaks while picking cloudberries, when I see it collapsing into mud due to thawing permafrost. During summers, I ponder the presence of unfamiliar insects that I have never seen before. And what has become of the fish in the fjord where our cabin is located? They have vanished. It creates an unsettling feeling. I can with walking cautiously on thawing eyes in the spring, listening with your entire body for the sound of cracking. But enough about me and our people. Some might argue that our situation is not unique. We are all experiencing climate change. And we all have a responsibility to contribute to the solutions. To that, I would like to share the words of Pakistani poet Yusra Amjad. It was not said to me that when the world burns, it doesn't always cook evenly. Somebody always pay a higher price. The climate crisis is a human rights crisis. And who are the most vulnerable? Refugees, women, children, disabled people, and indigenous peoples. This is unjust. This is not climate justice. The ones paying the highest price are those who have contributed the least to the problem. Yet they are the same people expected to pay again, this time with false mitigation solutions. The double burden of climate change weighs heavily upon us. It's being paid in Papua in Indonesia, where climate funds support forestry projects that destroys the food systems of indigenous peoples. In the Amazon, where soy production for animal feed and mining drives deforestation. And in Sapmi, where the largest wind-powered land in northern Europe is destroying the winter-gracing lands of my friend Maya and her family. This is climate mitigation gone wrong, creating new problems while attempting to solve ongoing ones. Fortunately, indigenous peoples and minorities are protected by human rights and national legislation. Perhaps not effectively in Indonesia or the Amazon, but certainly in the Nordic countries. Or are we? In October 11th of 2021, the Supreme Court of Norway declared two out of six wind farms on the Fusen Peninsula illegal, breaching with the international covenant on civil and political rights, specifically Article 27. This convention is one of the core UN human rights conventions. And Article 27 protects minorities' rights to enjoy their culture. Therefore, the Supreme Court of Norway ruled that the license granted to the company Fusenvin by the authorities was not legitimate and did not grant the company access to the winter-gracing lands of the Sami reindeer herding community of Fusenjärk. And this photo is from the start of the construction work on Fusen. And this moment could have been a truly joyous ending for the six Sami families in Fusen. Just imagine. Try everything over a large state-owned energy company, StartKraft, and several major European investors from Switzerland and Germany. Imagine the highest court in Norway affirming that you were right after two decades of defending your grazing lands in and out of court. And I vividly remember listening to the court's ruling being read and conveying it to my friend and former colleague Maja through Snapchat because she couldn't get the live stream to work. I could hardly believe it. It seemed too good to be true. They had won against the state of Norway and big energy. You won, I wrote. I think you won. And then she called me and we cried together. But as I'm not a legal scholar, we had to double check to ensure that I understood it, studied it correctly. But of course, there was one major problem. Norway had already permitted the construction of these illegal wind farms. 151 colossal wind turbines were already casting shadows and clusters of ice and causing disruptions in the grazing lands of Maja's reindeer. And they continue to do so. More than 600 days after the Supreme Court ruling, nothing has changed. Access to the winter grazing lands remains blocked for the Sami families and their reindeer herds. The government of Norway drags its feet, blaming the ruling for its supposed lack of clarity. The company Fosenwin points to the government's illegal license and the German and Swiss investors are reassured that there will be new consultations with the Sami families and then everything will supposedly be fine. 611 days, broken promises and lack of political will. Young Sami human rights defenders have staged protests marking day 500 and day 600 with support from young environmentalists. There have been debates, petitions, calls for action and declarations of support. For a week in February, protesters closed the entrances to several ministries in Norway, shouting slogans like CSV and Bay-Var-I-De-Orrot, perhaps even reaching Hetu-Orhus. Artistic events and protests have also taken place. And finally, halfway through my keynote, I come to my main message. How art can be and indeed is a part of resistance, reflection, healing, and even comical relief. Allow me to explain how I perceive the role of artistic expression, fulfilling these functions through examples of Sami artists in recent years. This is the Pile of Sami Supreme by Marahane Sara. And this artwork consists of 400 reindeer skulls, cleaned and assembled together like a monumental hanging tapestry, like a carpet or a flag. The two different shades of the skull form a pattern that references to the Sami flag. Marahane Sara created this work in protest against Norwegian reindeer husbandry and land policy in Sami, against the robbery and devastation of our territories and the forced slaughter of our reindeer, as the artist herself says. Like many others, she believes that a new colonization is taking place with fatal consequences for Sami culture. Sara has worked with this installation while her younger brother, Jofse Hante Sara, has been in a legal battle against the state to protect their reindeer and their family's rights against forced calling of their reindeer herd. She displayed the artwork of reindeer skulls outside the district's courting tana, outside the courts of appeal in Tromsø, and outside the parliament building when the case went to Norwegian Supreme Court. And the artwork gained significant attention when it was exhibited at the International Art Exhibition Documenta in Germany in 2017. Pile of Sami Supreme is about a refined, almost unrecognizable colonization in the shadow of modern democracy and an apparently fair legal system, says Sara. And at the same time, the artwork is about the right to practice one's culture, the right to protect the land, animals, people, and the rights in Sami. The title refers to Pile of Bones, the slaughter of buffalo herds in North America, carried out by white colonialists as a political strategy to destroy food systems, displace indigenous peoples from their areas, and gain access to their land. And this is what the artist herself and the National Museum of Norway, where the installation is prominently exhibited in the entrance hall, what they say about the art piece. I would like to share with you my own small reflections. What a cultural insider might pick up when viewing the installation. I offer you a close-up of the installation. You might find it unpleasant to see the holes in the reindeer skulls, seemingly like bullet holes from a point blank shot. The holes are, in fact, the trace of a slaughtering bolt used in an industrialized slaughtering process. To me, this represents a harsh contrast to the traditional slaughtering process and how we would take care of the reindeers and the meat, the blood, the intestines, the bones, the sinews, the hides, and the antlers. Our traditional food system is not necessarily accepted by authorities. And this keeps us from utilizing all that the reindeer can give us. We lose important and culturally significant sources of nutrition. The blood of the reindeer and ingredients for traditional delicacies is being poured into the gutter in this industrialized slaughtering process. Sara, also through this installation and the other of her art pieces, manages to encompass core Sami values in her work. She uses the reindeer skulls, which are scraps and leftovers. After the hide of them has been harvested for footwear, after the meat, eyes, tongues, traditionally even the brain, on them have been eaten. In Sami tradition, frugal use of resources is a core value. Nothing should go to waste. And you should never take more than you need. The traditional Sami way of life is a way of careful resource management and circular economy. It is one of the great paradoxes of modernity that I struggle with getting a grip on. We are supposed to move towards a more sustainable society. But on our way there, we destroy what is already sustainable. We are striving for a circularity, but we insist on breaking the circuit that is already circulating. I cannot understand it. I cannot accept it. But Mara Hanesara and her work helps me reflect on it. This is a photo of the theater piece Etna Maddo by Siri Brock Johansen. And in Etna Maddo, which is a performance that addresses sexual abuse that the legal system fails to punish, they playwright Siri Brock Johansen has constructed a ward, the title itself, Etna Maddo, that carries strong connotations to well-known mythological figures. In Sami mythology, every animal has a maddo, a matriarch. And if you harm a small animal, the matriarch of that animal will seek gruesome revenge. And Etna Maddo is the matriarch of all mothers. She seeks revenge on behalf of all daughters and sons who have been mistreated. Violence and abuse are human rights breaches and global public health issues. And particularly high rates of these exist in indigenous communities, such as Sami communities. And these have serious negative consequences for Sami communities as a whole, and for individuals somatic and mental health. This includes sexual violence. In Norway, the police dismiss over eight out of 10 rape reports. And one of three rape cases result in acquittal in court. The high number of dismissals at every stage of the legal process is alarming. And we also know that a significant number of rapes go unreported. This is a grave problem for those experiencing sexual violence, but it also touches on their family and friends and also the supposed perpetrators closest ones. How are the small rural communities where many Sami lives supposed to handle the violence and the aftermath that the court system is supposed to bring to justice? Brock Johansson's theater piece brought me some solace. Perhaps this pain and trauma can be processed through art. Maybe artistic expressions can help us understand and provide us with peace where the police and the judicial system fail. The art shows the way to some kind of addressing the pain, the lack of closure towards some kind of healing. It is not perfect, but it is something. These were examples on how art becomes a powerful tool of communication, of resistance, of raising awareness. Artistic expressions can touch hearts and minds in ways that words alone often cannot. As I have advocated for indigenous rights and climate justice in petitions and in political meetings, I have realized that artistic expressions have the potential to reach people on a deeper level, creating empathy, creating understanding. Through art, we can convey the urgency of the issues we face, challenge the status quo, and inspire change. I'm happy to see that the conference program reflects on this today, and I hope that this keynote can be a source for further reflection and for discussion. In conclusion, cultural expressions can play a vital role in the fight for climate justice and the protection of indigenous rights. It can serve as a medium for resistance, reflection, healing, and even comical relief. And to me, this represents a huge, almost untapped and definitely renewable source of inspiration. I just hope that this source will be free-flowing now before climate change and nature loss makes irreversible harm to the world that we depend on. By supporting and amplifying the voices of all artists and especially the voices of the most vulnerable, we can continue to shed light on the injustices faced by indigenous peoples and advocate for a more just and sustainable future. Thank you. Please sit, Eili. Thank you so much for that powerful and important keynote. Before we start, I just wanted to acknowledge two things. First of all, since we're in this international arts conference, I just wanted to acknowledge this very rare that an indigenous moderator interviews an indigenous leader on stage. It was on time, good people, on time. And the other thing we have to acknowledge, as you have shown us and talked about, is the fact that it's 611 days since the Fusen verdict. And we just need to make everyone aware also internationally about this fact that for 611 days there's been a state-run, state-driven violation to human rights in Fusen. So, I think we have to start by going back to some kind of core of this big question. And I want to go back to some fundamental premises for understanding the indigenous cultures of the North and our battle for land rights. Can you try to explain to us the legal framework internationally for the indigenous rights? Well, I can try, at least. Indigenous individuals have individual human rights like every other citizen of the world. But also, minorities' rights are protected by the core UN human rights conventions. And in fact, Norway was in breach of one of the core UN conventions as the Fusen verdict says. Indigenous peoples are often minorities. But what kind of separates national minorities from indigenous peoples is the relationships to our lands that we are connected to a specific traditional territory that we continue to inhabit and where we draw our resources. And that connection is protected in some international conventions. The ILO Convention 169, which is ratified of both Norway and in fact Denmark, protects indigenous land use to some extent. And we have an international declaration, the UN Declaration of Indigenous Peoples' Rights, the UN DRIP, it's called in short, and that is a declaration that is agreed upon, both by the UN member states and also representatives of indigenous peoples. So that's also a core document reflecting what is international customary law. And the UN Declaration on Indigenous Rights, you said it's ratified by most member countries, but not all, right? There's been some debate about that. Well, I would like to say that it's a declaration and not a convention. So it's a declaration of political will. And most of the UN member states have supported it. Most of them already when it was decided on, and some of the states later on, so it's broadly supported by UN member states today. And it reflects what should be a minimum support and protection of indigenous rights in the distinct member states. And just tell us also just a little bit more about the ILO 169, because in Norway we refer to that a lot when we talk about indigenous rights. Well, Norway is quite proud of this international convention because Norway and the Nordic states had a central role in negotiating it, and Norway was in fact the first state to ratify it, so we're quite proud of it. And it says, among other things, that the state is obligated to identify indigenous lands. But I'm sorry to say this is still more than 30 years after the ratification, it's still an ongoing and very polarized process in Norway. And I kind of have to ask when we have this international legal framework, we have the ILO 169 that, as you say, Norway ratified first. And also in Norway, again, the Sami rights, in a way, is also part of the constitution. At least it says that the state is obligated to support the development of Sami culture, society, and language. So why is it so hard when it comes to real life decisions and policymaking in Norway? Why do they continue to violate our rights when the legal framework is so clear? Well, it's a good question. I wish I knew the answer. Maybe I could fix it. But I think even if Sami language rights and cultural rights have had a very positive development for the last 30 years, what is dragging behind is the hardcore land rights and resource rights. And this might be because so much of the mineral values, so much of the resources in Norway is in fact located on, outside of, or under SAPMI, the traditional Sami areas. So I think there's an underlying fear of giving the Sami people too much to say about how the land is going to be used and the resources is going to be used. So it must be something there. It's too valuable to leave to the Sami. And you mentioned also in your keynote the term or the notion of green colonialism. There is Fusen going on in Norway now, which is a very important battle for us. How do you see green colonialism kind of play its way in the Nordic countries today? Well, it's kind of... I sometimes laugh when I see the rhetoric regarding industrial development today because would you believe it? Every new industrial project is a green project. It's just not believable. So everything, every rock that we blow up or every fjord that we pollute, it's really green projects. The future will be amazing according to this rhetoric. So I find it very, very hard to deal with because it's the same experience as always. It's nothing new. We are just doing it with green closer. And I think that kind of exploitation of land is why we have troubles with the climate crisis today. So we are just continuing on the same path. And I don't believe it will be sustainable. But it creates kind of an apathy. And I think it kind of hinders us to engage forcefully in the climate movement because of this green colonialism. It kind of hinders us to take the place we should take in the movement for a better future. And speaking of which, how could it have been? Tell us a little bit more about the Sami culture. Our traditions, our knowledge and know-how, how could that have been used? How could that have played a role in a real, a true and non-false green shift? Well, let me start with saying that from the peoples of Europe, the cultures in the Arctic has often been considered primitive. And to that, I would say that there is no way you could survive in the Arctic with a primitive culture. To be, to survive through the Arctic winter, you have to have quite a sophisticated and innovative culture, advanced culture. Because the conditions can be so harsh and the winter can be so long. So you have to have technology and innovation and adaptation abilities only to be. And also to thrive with cultural expressions like the Arctic indigenous cultures have. You have to be really advanced. So I'm quite proud of what we have contributed to the world. And I think especially the adaptation skills, they are really handy, really handy in a world that is changing so fast. So that is one skill that I think might be of assistance to us and maybe to others when we are facing the climate change. My worry is that the climate change is too fast for our cultures to adapt to it. That is my single worry. And tell us a little bit about the Sami concept of Birgit. Birgit, it's such a beautiful word. And it carries with it so much information about Sami core values. It means to get by. And that is what we strive for. We don't strive for getting rich. We strive to get by. Because you should always save some resources for your children or your grandchildren if they are not renewable or for your grandmother or your neighbor or somebody passing by that needs them. Always leave something back so others can also Birgit. And this is a value of careful resource management and a value of not overeating, not overusing, not exploiting. And this core value, Birgit, it has helped us, I believe, survive in quite harsh conditions. Always being careful, always thinking twice, always using what you have and using everything. And now with our artwork, we even use what we didn't use before like the reindeer skulls. And how could these kind of elements from Birgit and from our traditional knowledge, how could that be put into tools that could be used internationally for actually managing a green shift? Well, I think the most important that we have to contribute with is the view of world, the circularity, the carefulness. And you probably know already that there is research that demonstrates that areas where Indigenous peoples are in control that are managed by Indigenous peoples, those are the areas that are most protected, best protected from outside encroachment where the biological diversity is the biggest. And that is amazing. It tells me that we know something about how to manage lands and manage ecosystems and manage food systems. But it's so frustrating that the Western world kind of tells us that, okay, they are going to invent circularity and careful resource management. And to do that, they have to take our lands and resources and even destroy everything to achieve what already is there. So I hope in some kind of way that artistic expressions can help in explaining what we already have. It doesn't have to be invented. It is there already and it might need some tweaking in the modern world, probably. But we have something valuable and we have something to offer. The knowledge is there. How do you see the art world? We're now in this big international performing arts conference. And with the international performing arts scene present, how do you see the arts field's role, both in Sapmi but also internationally, what role can we play in bringing justice into the green shift and to address these important questions? Well, I've been a political leader. I'm currently a human rights expert working in Amnesty, Norway. And I have tried through those careers to explain to Norwegian and international decision makers how things should be. Not always so successful. I can imagine. So I think that the art world could be kind of an additional platform, something to make us more visible, to make us better understood, to capture the eye, to force leaders to listen, to force experts to consider our arguments, what we would like to contribute with, because I think Indigenous peoples could contribute more, even to climate activism. But I think we are kind of... Well, we're supposed to be in the front line, but we are kind of sidelined because something is lost in translation. And maybe the art world could help with that kind of translation to offer reflections and offer insight and new perspectives. I'm quite optimistic about what the art world could contribute. I am too, and the Sami art world is thriving, and our artists are doing a fantastic job, both nationally and internationally. But I also wanted you to reflect on in this room, there's international performing arts professionals of different kinds. I think also listening to the conversations for the last few days here at the conference, I think many want to help, to play a role, but many will also be reluctant to kind of step into that discourse because one is afraid to kind of appropriate the discourse and take it away from those who own it, but also with the indigenous peoples. So I think for many in the international art world, it can sometimes feel difficult to find their space and place in such also an artistic discourse. Do you have any reflections on how one can be a good ally? I understand that kind of hesitancy. You might not want to do the wrong things or stepping on someone's toes. So I understand that this can be a bit of sensitive. But I think there are possibilities both to make space for indigenous arts and indigenous artists and to elevate their voices. And I think also both smaller and bigger institutions, both on the national level, regional level, can create those spaces and give voices to indigenous peoples through their arts. And I think this conference is a good example. You already commented on that in fact we are too indigenous Sami women having a conversation on a big stage in this conference. I think that's a good way of doing it. That would be interesting both to indigenous peoples and to hopefully also to others. So there are good examples to learn from. There are and let me also just add when we have the opportunity never about us without us. Collaboration, cooperation is very, very important. And I think also Sami artists are bolder about entering that kind of collaboration now because we have seen good examples of how that could work. Absolutely. Am I supposed to keep track of time? I think we have five minutes left and good people. You can prepare your questions. We will have some questions from the floor if there's anything you'd like to ask. And we have one question over there and you will have a microphone in a second. Thank you very much. I'm down here. Thank you very much for your keynote and to the programming for you being here, both of you. Thanks for that. I have something which is maybe more a request for a pondering from maybe both of you. As far as I know the work of Sara started by those 40 reindeer beheaded of her brother's herd being placed in a neat pile bloody full headed and outside various institutions. And of course there's a limit to how many pictures you have and how deep you can go in the story. And I'm just curious if you do not show us that first part of her process with the killing, with the slaughtering because you want to protect us a bit because these people here don't see blood and dead animals are often or if it's only for time or just this whole grey zone of her working as an activist. Here's 40 beheaded reindeer in front of whatever big institution in Norway it was or it was probably several places and they got nice and smelly along the way. And then the art institution acknowledged it as an art piece because it's now been more worked on and it's in a condition where we can have it indoor. There's just something interesting about that I would like you to talk a bit about. Well, if I may. Well, it was first and foremost because of the time restrictions but you can all google Pile of Sapmi and you will find the whole story with photographs of the development of the artwork. But I wanted to focus on the holes in the skulls and the last artwork I think showed that the best and also that is the artwork that exists now and it's hanging in the National Museum of Norway in Oslo. But I can also just add a brief anecdote on that process because it was a long process. They first appeared in front of the courthouse in Tana in a big pile, as you said, with the hairs and everything on them and just going from that to the skulls they are smell-free and an art piece hanging in the National Museum that's been a long journey and on the way she has created different works as part of the Pile of Sapmi project so there's been many kinds of installations on the way and in the middle of the process here at some point at that time I was the director of the Arctic Arts Festival in Norway and we had this big concert with our greatest Sami artist and she had the installation on stage with these heads but at this time the smell was not gone because there's a long process with preparing them to be dry and ready for display. So we had this huge Sami celebration, a fantastic concert and also Anders Sunda, which is a great Sami artist was doing an art piece and she had this Pile of Sapmi and each and crew they protested they were like, we would not want to work on that stage because of the smell it was like a fantastic paradox with this Sami show and this extremely powerful Sami art piece that smelled so terrible so the Sami's were unpleasantly present extremely unpleasantly present so it was quite nice and it was a way of creating a problem for them not only for us Exactly, I was very happy with David Thank you, great question We have time for one more question over there Well it's not really a question My name is Kira Arnberg, living in Oslo I just want, you mentioned Birgit and the Sami choreographer Elisofo Zara made a piece for the contemporary dance company Kaj Blanche in Bergen and they present actually Birgit in Oslo this week and hopefully they will tour a lot I'm so happy you mentioned that and I wanted to say that regarding a fantastic Sami art being made right now the absolutely fantastic Sami choreographer Elisofo Zara created together with Jouarnango this performance called Birgit which is placed in Oslo now and I suppose it will also have a broad international tour at some point so you will be able to see it and it's actually on the core of the topics Yes, yes, and I'm so sorry to have missed it so far I'm so looking forward to seeing that and Elisofo is fantastic She's from my hometown like Mara and Zara is as well and it tells something about the possibilities to be an Sami artist today and Jouarnango is currently exhibiting at the Venice architectural Biennale in the Nordic pavilion and I'm hoping to see that exhibition Are you going? Absolutely, absolutely and we're looking forward to that and I think it will be kind of fair to speaking of this and this conversation with the words of Paulina Fedorov who was also one of the artists at the Venice Biennale Sami pavilion last year who said don't buy our lands by our art or tickets to our shows instead So we'll leave it Thank you so much for that