 Political gladiators are plotting against the dictates of the new electoral act and Rao Dipens over Tom Polo's 48 billion-dollar pipeline surveillance contract. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacol. Until the Nigerian political act has resolved to play by the rules, the electoral debacle in the conscious democratic system would continue to get worse. This narrow-mindedness played out recently when some National Assembly members, governors and other politicians willingly decided to break the electoral act of 2022 by aspiring to be candidates for their political parties in two different positions. Also recalled, the former president, Electoral Commissioner, a resident Electoral Commissioner, I beg your pardon, in our Kwaibom State, Mike Igini, had warned that politicians who procured multiple forms were criminals and risked two years imprisonment. Joining us to break this down is Kunle Lawal, he's the executive director of the Electoral College in Nigeria. And of course, Wahab Shitu is joining us via telephone. He's a legal practitioner. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Mr. Shitu, can you hear me? Great. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to start with you, Kunle. A lot of Nigerians fought for the electoral act of 2022 to be amended, even though there had been, of course, some back and forth as to what was in it and what was taken out of it. But then with what we have, Nigerians would be celebrating that, oh, this might point to a free-for-accredible elections to an extent. But then we've seen this double-dipping by certain members of the political class. And this calls to question, if the electoral act in itself was good enough? I don't see a problem with the electoral act. I think where the major problem is, is that the National Assembly, if I could be quoted, passed a bill that they obviously didn't read. And this goes to the point that first they took out delegates, statutory delegates, which was them, out of the equation. And, you know, going to the president two days after he was sent there to the bill that you passed to ask for, you know, a re-amendment of that particular bill. And the president, of course, refused to bulge. So it's clear that you have a National Assembly that didn't read a bill. So you can find them, of course, within the the precipice of trying to truncate the same bill. Now, you have a clear act that says you cannot pursue two different political positions in one electoral year. And you have the Senate president, who is actually the highest legislative office, virtually trumping that and breaking the law. And it comes with a two-year imprisonment clause. And nobody has done anything. They're still trying to fight for their positions. Governor Omahi is one of them. Quite a lot of them around Apabio, too, is within the same system. They bought presidential forms and also still got forms for within the legislative house. So it doesn't make sense if you put this bill down and you're the one trying to corrupt it. But, you know, of course, because we've not activated the recall system in Nigeria, and where people are a little too shy or scared to try to recall their representatives. That's why I think they still sit down, because they do not have immunity. Mr. Shito, you are obviously an officer of the law. You are a legal practitioner. You don't understand this better. One would ask, I mean, Kune is saying that the recall process would also play a part in, you know, reducing the number of people who take advantage of the electoral acts of 2022. But what can people do in the interim? I mean, we've seen the clear case of Governor Apabio, who's former minister. We've seen a clear case of the sitting Senate presidents. We've seen the case of the governor of Cross River State, Ben Ayade. I mean, I'm sure there are several other people like this and the drag between them and their placeholders. What does the law, what can the law do other than, you know, what the act is presenting us with? I'd like to know, is there a law that is designed to regulate conduct of elections? I'm sure the elections are credible, fair, and free. But the law is one thing. The attitude of the political elite is another. So the attitude that they say is everything. So I think it's a great thing. The electoral acts will work. So they say that the political elite allows it to work. And this brings us to the issue of rule of law. We must be ready to enforce the provisions of the electoral act. No matter whose house it's given. So no matter how set all your standards in the society, all are bound by law. So the political actors must be ready for the provisions of the electoral. Otherwise, we should be ready to apply sanctions. So it is important that these provisions of the electoral act are only good on paper. What is important is the will of a lot of first managers to ensure that the provisions are not only implemented but rigidly enforced. But why would I want to? Okay, I'm so sorry to talk over here. I wanted you to land before I come in. So how do they enforce it? Because again, it's one thing for me to make a law. And of course, it's another for it to be enforced. But why would there be sanctions? Who's going to put those sanctions in place? Is it the same people who are breaking this law? Is it body charged with the affordability of supervising our election? Why is there any wrongdoing? I know most of them is the evidence. And then the police. Another law of first managers must enforce. So the issue is I make or provide evidence that why the police will enforce. Interesting. So I say there is a consequences for violations. Okay. And the electoral act would not be able to be affected. Okay. Back to you, Kunle. We see how vilified the wreck in our QI boom state has been in the past months. He's been dragged in the media. They've called him all sorts of names. But for those who know this man, Mikey Guinea, he's been known to be one that would not waver in any way. He stands his ground. But he's saying that what has been happening is criminal. And there are people who are advocating that he be removed from that office. He should be dismissed. Even though he's saying, look, this is criminal. This should be implemented. This should be done. And just as Mr. Shichu is saying, INEC's duties end at some point. And of course, it be hopes on the police to do the job. But do we see that happening? Okay. So for me, looking at everything, of course, INEC has stated clearly that this particular people are not those running for office. INEC put out a press release. But where I think it's critical to be able to turn or to receive some power to the electoral act of 2022, is if Nigerians who, of course, assume themselves politically aware know exactly what's available within the electoral act. And for me, that's where the problem lies. So you have a lot of Nigerians that discuss politics publicly and privately, but they do not understand in which concept the electoral act is directing and where it's not directing. And then this problem not only is strictly related to the electorate, it's even worse that those in political parties are totally oblivious of the laws that are available in our land, guiding what they claim to practice. Are you sure that they're oblivious or they do not care? They're two different things. Okay. So interacting with political parties, one of the things I think I've noticed the most is that first, they don't care, especially for those within incumbent parties. Then secondly, they feel the system has run a particular way since 1979. And some people have participated. And it's shocking that even the so-called new breed are inheriting the exact traditions that are passed down. So our irresponsibility towards law or statutes that are put down or the constitution in general is inherited by the so-called new politicians. I've been heard to say clearly that the only difference between new and old politicians is that the new ones can use Instagram live. Wow. That in itself is sort of a blow, a low blow for the young politicians. But then it's interesting to note that we are pushed for this. And then you're saying we still didn't even read the text in this particular act that we pushed for to even know if we have a problem. Now, what is most shocking is that the people that are past it, they read the text. The people that have passed it for haven't read the text. And the people that are supposed to enforce it don't fully understand the text. This is a total quagmire. So, you know, for people that keep saying Nigeria's constitution is faulty, this is that I would tell them most people have not looked at the electoral act or the constitution where the problem lies is that we've not looked at it. And then it's not even implemented to about 35 or 40%. So therein lies the problem in which we have as regards almost everything we do. Mr. Shichu Kulei saying that we have too many laws and we barely even understand these laws, let alone pushing for its implementation. So I come back to you with the question that I asked earlier on, how do we get, including the police, you know, law enforcement, that he has also, you know, tied up in this particular ignorance game. He's saying that, you know, those of us who were, these laws were passed for, we still don't fully understand. The people who wrote the laws and passed it don't also fully understand. Let alone the law enforcement agencies. So where does this leave us? Because again, how are we getting ready for a general election with an act that we are all jubilating over as something that would help us to grow or improve our electoral process. Mr. Shichu Kulei. Are you talking to me? Yes, sir. Yes, yes. I only come up here. All right. Let me ask the question again. So Kulei is saying that we are somewhat in a quagmire where the people who passed that act did not fully understand it. Those of us, the act was passed for, still do not fully understand it or even have some of us haven't even read it. And of course, the law enforcement agencies that are supposed to enforce it also do not fully understand. So where does that leave us going into a general elections in a few months? Well, I think what is critical is we need for political education. We need to break down the electoral act and get those who understand it to really interpret this position to a lot, including political actors. So education, political education is key. And there are political actors who are ready to play by the rules. I don't think it's fair to say those who propagate the electoral act don't understand the position. I think they do. I think the understanding of the position is one thing. Williness to abide by the position is another. And that is why the issue of enforcement comes in. I know when it plays the role, the political actors will play the role, the enforcement agents will play the role, and the public, the public, the members, the electorate must also play the role. I think if all of us are, I mean, to enforce the positions of the letter, violations of the letter are minimal. And then there are politicians who will force to play by the rules. Interesting. Let me come back to you, Kunle. I wanted to ask him something about the MBA, but I will come back to that. He's talking about education, voter education, civic education. And to be fair to the media, a lot of that is being done. But I always remember that this honours is also on political parties, which, if you ask me, I hardly see them do that. The N.O.A. is another kettle of fish. I never want to mention the N.O.A. because I don't know when they're going to come alive anytime soon, maybe sometime in December. But there is a lot that needs to be done. The media is just one part of society. Yes, we're the fourthest state of the realm. We have our job cut out for us. But where does the political party come in? And of course civil society, and people like you, the electoral college, how do we go above and beyond? Because it's like every election cycle, we have this conversation. So what do we do? Oh, and then it happens again and we say, oh, we try our best. How can we get above and beyond? So number one, a democracy cannot function, except it has a politically literate population. So for this to work, it's the reason the electoral college, Nigeria exists. We've driven quite, we've gone down. We are not even playing grassroots. We are going back, as age wise, going back to kids and trying to educate them with, you know, a little tinny book on the Constitution, your rights as a Nigerian, what the tiers of government do, what the fourth estate is supposed to do. I'll be honest, in Nigeria, a lot of us do not even understand what exactly goes on, and I'll give an example. So we're in Etiusa, LGA right now. Most people are not aware that federal government has a location to Etiusa for a month. Every month, a particular amount is sent. Now the exact particular amount that is sent, Etiusa residents do not know. And we feel from these little levels, then you can go up to the bigger things. You don't start to the electoral act, which is quite complicated. The first thing we need people to understand, number one, your local government chairman do not have immunity. Then, you know, start to influence, then they start to ask, okay, so they don't have immunity, how much is coming to Etiusa? Then I'll tell you, four hundred and five million comes to Etiusa every month. And then we start to build on that. So the anyway, as you've said, is mandated with this, with offices in 774 local governments. Has the anyway taken it? No, they've decided not to act in this manner, or try to do anything within these parameters. Excuse me. So the work is massively on the electoral college and a few other large CSOs that are working within the system. I'm going to say this loosely here. We've seen civil society organizations in quote, be very political, you know, especially when it comes to campaign seasons. And so it takes away from the education that we're expecting to see, and we see more of people speaking for a political party or a politician. So again, is that not somewhat of a dereliction of the duty that you owe society as civil society? Yes, I understand this, and I see this with a few CSOs. The electoral college has remained non-partisan. If you check my public opinions, I refuse to mention anything. And I've stated clearly, I personally will speak for the electoral college in Nigeria. My choice of candidates is not public, and how I vote is not public. So what we try to do is always bring out, you know, issues concerning four candidates, like we did a SWOT analysis, strengths, weaknesses, and threats to the top four candidates. We eventually will do coming down to the top 16, and eventually we've done the first four, and we will keep doing things like that. We can't really, like I said, most Nigerians do not understand what politics is, and one guilty part with a lot of other CSOs is that there are people who have never been actors in politics, so they don't even understand where defense is and where not to jump over defense. So there lies the problem. Finally, Mr. Shitu, when we talk about the, I mean, we've talked about the civil society, we've talked about the NOA and all of the people that settled with responsibility. How about those of us who barely have an idea or even want to get involved? Don't forget that there's a chunk, a lot chunk of people who believe that politics is a dirty game. Some people feel that their votes don't count. Some people feel that they don't even need to know who their local government chairman is because he doesn't change anything because they're a government to themselves. And I'm asking this because, and I'm asking this because, you know, it's very easy for people to say, I buy, I, I, I, I, I mean, I get my own voice, I produce my, I get my own light. So why do I need to know my local government chairman? Quickly, how do we change that narrative going forward? Well, changing the narrative. Yes. If there are people who design the kind of government they are, I think part of, part of the way of changing the narrative is what we're doing here. We need to establish it. We need greater, we get that communication, greater constructive engagement, and then, I think people will change their mindset. Everybody is playing politics. Why we are doing that? What is, what is leading us to affect us? What we do will also impact our society. I think we have to change this a little. I don't care. I don't care. Going affects us all. Yes. Well, I want to say thank you. Wahab Sheetoo is a senior advocate of Nigeria and he's also a lawyer. We want to say thank you so much. Kunle is, of course, of the Electoral College of Nigeria. I need to correct the impression. I need to correct the impression. I'm so glistened at the sound. Oh, you're not to stand yet. I'm not to stand. Oh, okay. So you're standing waiting. Yeah, well, I'm not to stand yet. So pray for me. Okay. Thank you so much, Mr. Sheetoo. Thank you so much, Kunle, for being part of the conversation. All right. We'll take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll be talking about the 40 billion Naira pipeline contract that was given to Tom Polo and of course, the round that he has brought across the country. Stay with us.