 Direct primaries are prone to massive rigging, says the People's Democratic Party Governance Forum and Minister of Interior Al-Fareq Bishala has been criticised for his call for the signing of deaths warrants. The Governance Forum of the People's Democratic Party PDP has condemned the proposed direct primaries recommended by the National Assembly in the Electoral Act Amendment Bill saying that it is prone to massive rigging. Speaking on behalf of the Governors in Bolchi on Monday, Chairman of the Forum Amino Tambol of Sakato State backing his claim cited a situation where President Bahari scored 15 million votes in the 2018 APC Direct primaries, only to score 15 million votes from the entire country in the 2019 General Election. The Forum lambasted the federal government for the use of underhand tactics and amt twisting of some PDP Governors and other stakeholders to join the APC and they called it a political party that is wrecked or has wrecked the Nigerian economy. Joining us to discuss this is Dhirah Odeyemi. He is the Deputy Publicity Secretary of the People's Democratic Party and also joining us is Adaji Usman, Publicity Secretary of the APC FCC Chapter. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much and happy to be with you this evening. So Mr. Dhirah, I'm going to start by giving us a clear, let's talk about what direct primaries are for the purpose of those who are watching us because some people would not understand what it is so I'm going to put it up on the screen. Direct and indirect primaries and I just want us to quickly just give a background to it. So in a direct primary election, registered members of a political party just vote for who they want to be the flag bearer of their party. Unlike indirect primaries where no delegates are involved, party members choose their representatives through polls like they would do in a general election. So this is the difference. I just wanted us to clear that difference. Now in the direct primaries which is being proposed in the Electoral Act Amendment Bill, I want to understand why the PDP seems to be against it. Isn't this an opportunity for everyone's voice to be heard, especially when you have Democratic in the middle of the two P's? There are two reasons involved in this. And the first is the fact that political parties should be independent and they should have a method of choosing whoever is going to put on their flag. So no law should compel any political party about how they are going to choose their candidates in whatever way and whatever form, whichever political party chooses the wrong candidates, then they are bound to lose at the general election. So I don't think it's the business of the House of Rep or the lawmaker to choose for us how we are going to select whoever is going to be a representative in any election. That is number one. And number two, just like Governor Tamboa rightly put it, if you say you are proposing a direct primary, it's open to fraud and it's open to raking. The example given was that during the direct primary of KPC, the president was able to record 150 million votes or whatever. And at the end of the day, during the election, that was the tax vote he claimed to have made him the president. So where's the difference? Are we now saying that it's only the membership of the political party that's elected him into office? So this we don't understand and based on the fact that we just agreed that political parties should have that independent power to choose how or who is going to represent them, I think it's more than enough. I want to take you back to something you just said. You did say that the members of the National Assembly do not have a right to tell political parties how to run their private business. But then let's look at the politics of it all. The members of the National Assembly are a makeup of the PDP and the APC. Maybe these people do not have a problem with it, but the governors do have a problem with it. So is it really about the fact that the parties want to be independent or is it that the maybe the governors have a different agenda as opposed to the members of the legislature? Yeah, you may be right. If you say that the way and manner the legislators are looking at it could be quite different from the way the governors are looking at it. But at the end of the day, they have represented our voice, I mean the governors. They have said what we wanted. And there's now let for the I want to put it to you that right now we try to make a kind of to clarify what really happened. It was a proposal mentioned by the speaker of red by Javier Miller. It has not been put into anything. Maybe they are going to put it into voting or whatever. What it is, it is a personal opinion of Mr. Speaker. And we are not sure to what extent that is going to have the support of other members. Interesting. Why is indirect primary is very important to the PDP? Why you obviously are a member of a ranking member of the political party? Why is it very important to you? And how does this help the democracy, the internal democracy in your party? We believe it is too cumbersome and it gives room for reading. Anybody can just come up with any figure that declare it and declare the candidate unlike the delegate election whereby you know the number of delegates. You were in Nigeria when PDP conducted its presidential primary in Kotaku. It was the most transparent election internally done that was you know applauded everywhere. So that is the kind of politics or that is the kind of election we take which will follow in order to be able to choose our leaders. Not direct one whereby anybody can just sit down anywhere and come out with any figure from any world or from any local country. But you make it seem as if if you were to try these direct primaries that it would not be controlled. Are you trying to tell me that as a party you really cannot control the primaries that you would hold within your party? Meaning that even when you go to the polls you also cannot control. I mean because what you're trying to tell me is that there is no form of internal democracy and you're afraid that if you throw an election open to all and allow everybody's voice to be heard then you're scared that you know someone might or will rig it. Where is the control in terms of the electioneering process within your party? Because if we do not expect some form of proper internal democracy in your party we do not we should not be able to trust you to hold any offices or run for any offices if you cannot get it right within your party. You are missing the issues together. The two proposals are the method to choose whoever is going to flag the whoever is going to choose. I understand but I'm following you up. No no no no I understand but you said that it would be over to you. But you cannot decide to which one is better. Well I'm asking you why you have chosen or you have kicked against the direct primaries if you haven't tried it but and then you quickly told me that you know you don't want just anybody to sit somewhere and decide who wins. I mean it's supposed to be a democracy everybody's voice will come together and whoever has the highest voice or the highest number of votes will be the flag bearer isn't it as simple as that? To even select a delegate involves virtually all the members of the party is a process on its own that is their level of involvement that is stage one the stage two is the delegates to elect whoever they now want as their as the candidates so it's still a process that involves virtually all the members of the party the two systems are good but one has an advantage of having a better control than Georgia and that is what I'm saying it's not that anybody is afraid about that. Exactly and I'm asking why can't you control the other? Can you now are you trying to force out to accept a system we know is super party? But you it's like telling me that you can't drive and I'm asking why can't you drive are you afraid to drive or you just don't want to drive this is it it's a simple question why is why do you why do you as a person think that the other is too cumbersome why? Because by the time you involve all the party members in such an election there is no way you can control if the number of voters they claim to have gotten is correct or not. Does it mean that you don't trust them? So it means that there is no trust within your party and its members you're telling me that for example I'm in Ward 7 of a certain local government area of your party and you're telling me that in that ward you cannot trust the ward chairman of your party to say that these are the number of people who actually voted and these are the people who voted for Mr. A and Mr. B you're saying that you can't control it because they might one way or the other tamper with the numbers so you do not trust the members of your own political party that's it. There's nothing to do with trust or nothing but we believe this is the best system that is so transparent and for everybody to know that is it can I be given the opportunity to speak on this? We will get to you Mr. Adagio please just hold on we'll get to you. Okay go ahead Mr. Duran. So we are as a political party if we decide to use indirect method I think that is the as a political party we have the right to say yes this is the best system I just mentioned where we have used it and we got a plot from Nigerians and that is the last residential election where people can think we're a match as our candidates. We believe that's the best method so and we cannot be quoted about it what matters is to have a candidate that will be presented with to Nigeria and that is why often now you cannot force the primary of a PDP anywhere because we have not lost governorship through 40 primaries. Interesting to you Mr. Adagio I want to understand why why does the APC that is if the APC is open to this proposition by the Speaker of the House of Representatives is this something that the APC is open to Mr. Adagio direct primaries? Well in the APC party's constitution the party is open to three methods of conducting its primaries one directs primaries two indirect and three consensus where consensus is most acceptable where you can sit down as a party and decide on a candidate acceptable party people it goes where that does not work it be holds on the party to decide on either the direct or indirect primaries in the case of Mr. President we have tried the three methods we have used direct primaries we have used indirect primaries we will recall that in 2016 2015 rather where we had our primaries in Lagos we employed the indirect primaries that brought about the president president Mahmoud Gowari as the candidate of the party where he contested among other four contestants and now that election was very transparent when my colleague did say that PDP had the most consents I mean a transparent primaries in Potacot I love I love because that primary that primary election that was conducted in Potacot cannot in any way be compared to what we had in 2015 in Lagos where you at the PDP's primary how do you know or how can you tell you're not a party man how can you tell that their primaries is not anything compared to yours we cannot speak for him can you if you were not there my name is Mary Ann my name is Mary Ann you cannot speak for the PDP if you were not part of their primaries can you bank as you speak now my name is Mary Ann what what what happened in in PDP in the primaries in Potacot is there for everybody to see what are putting the primaries of the APC in Lagos everybody to see they are there in the archive so these are not secret issues well let me leave that for now but what I'm trying to make you understand is that in 2015 we employed the indirect primaries we tested it and it worked for us in 2019 the president said we need to go by direct primaries we need to try all the options the direct primaries gives room to every member of the party to participate in the select in the election of who governs them every card carry member of the party is allowed to participate to vote cast their votes and say look this is our choice where somebody says they cannot be controlled that is not correct every card carry member of the party is known if your party had a total registration of 2000 it is expected that other primaries haven't done the direct primaries 2000 votes are expected when you have 2001 it means that something is wrong with that primaries so for anybody to say it cannot be controlled if we can control general election conducted by INEC where we have over 15 2030 million Nigerians casting their votes either can be controlled I wonder why a little less than two million three million members cannot be controlled in a party where you employ direct primaries so for us in APC we are very comfortable with all the three methods of conducting primaries which which which has which has the APC been using more often because right now there's so much split in the APC we're having we're having challenges within the APC in Akiti there's there's been an ongoing tussle within the APC in Quara so really which one has the APC used most importantly especially when we're talking about direct primaries we have conveniently used both the direct and indirect primaries in states I can give you I can give you for free that the last election primary election that we conducted in FCT we're all conducted through the direct primaries that is in 2019 all the House of Breasts Senate elections look at government elections were done by direct primaries I can also tell you that in 2016 we used the indirect primaries I can also tell you for free that most of our elections across so many states were done by direct primaries it all depends on what the state feels that is most convenient most comfortable most acceptable by the members of the party because the primary election is about them it is not about an individual but it's about the voters so what is most acceptable and comfortable and convenient for the members of the party at that particular is employed so long as it is within the ambit of the constitution the party's constitution if the House of Representatives decides that this will become part of the amended the electoral act that is being passed as about to be passed as a bill will the APC be comfortable with this particular one being the modus operandi going forward yet are you sure we are already used to it really because I asked the question that you glossed over the APC seems to be having cracks within the party right now and I pointed to choir stage I spoke about choir APC over and over that there's an ongoing squabble within the party the most recent is in akiti states so I'm trying to understand what type of internal democracy does the APC have in terms of states now now let me let me say this clearly any political party that is ruling any ruling political party is prone to having more members moving into the party and politics is all about interest where you have two three four five persons come together to vie for a particular position interest abounds and where you have interest there are rules for what you call cracks I don't look at it as cracks I look at it as normal political party struggles where you decide to play the game by the rule to decide to do whatever you can within the ambit of the law to win election so what is happening in akiti or is happening in um choir like you have said as far as I'm concerned it's not a crack but it is a sure way of people testing their potentials with regards to the voters casting their votes and then deciding who governs them thereafter so it is not a crack it is normal it is I would have agreed with you miss adage I would have agreed with you because uh I mean if I were if I were just to go by what you just told me but I have had members of the opposing sides from especially uh choir states on this show and the most recurring thing is that there was no room for democracy someone was foisted overnight by the opposing party on the whole party and this is the issue can you can you do you also understand okay I did tell you that there are three methods of spending hold on hold on that there are three methods of electing um they will represent the people in our party constitution are they told you about consensus are they told you about direct are they told you about indirect where the leaders meet and decide look when you say somebody says to if we are 30 and 27 agrees that consensusly this is the man that we want to govern us three is in the minority so you wouldn't say that what has been done there is the legal it is within the party's constitution it is within the legal framework of the party that consensus can be used where it can where it cannot then you employ the other two methods which is other direct or indirect so what is happening in part like I have said may have been brought out of the fact that leaders of the party across board may have settled for consensus but perhaps maybe some 30 minute number of persons who did not have their way may possibly want to take to the media to say look what has been done and so the minute number of people are the ones that are holding the party to ransom right now is that what you're telling me that the party is facing what they're facing now because of a handful of people don't forget don't forget in politics where you have there are times we could have multitude of persons who of course have their say genuinely and very few persons who could decide to take to violence may hold the place to ransom that does not mean that that is in the majority people checking people to ransom may have done that through violence and it's not everybody in the party that would want to go by violence so majority of the people may have done what is right but few persons who may not have gotten it right may want to use violence so holding them hostage or holding the people to ransom was not employed that the majority of the people are on that side I wanted to understand that great let me go back to you Mr. Duran there are many grievances that the PDP governor's forum hold against the APC I'd like to make mention of one recently the the governor's forum even before this meeting had come out to say that the PDP governor's forum had come out to say that the federal government is engaging in some form of am twisting and threatening most of their governors to join the APC and I'm really I'm curious as to why this is happening if it is really happening of course I know that you have lost two governors if not three so far to the APC why why do you think the governors have taken this position saying that the government is hand twisting them to one way or the other play to you know the rhythm of the APC the am twisting is very simple because APC is in power because they are in government they have a way of coaxing wherever they want into their party and part of it or one special part of it is the DSC and the argument we are saying is that if you believe some governors are corrupt why is it that you lure them to join you with the threat of VCC you see them as a devil in PDP but moment they cross to your to your party they become a saint and you no longer talk about VCC there are many governors that have been contacted not only the three of them that went the other governors have been contacted and they are only trying to safeguard the situation in the country they are not they don't want to mention it actually and that's why they use that word am twisting am twisting could be a way could be anything to lure you or to coax you into the other side and what we are saying as a political party is that if you are really fighting corruption do you now use that as an excuse to coax them into your party if you are looking for thieves and the thieves easily walk into your neck the next thing is to arrest them and irrespective of whatever is happening but as it is now they are coaxing their am twisting and what we are saying as a political party is that our motto is power belongs to the people no individual is bigger than PDP there has been instances when people left the party the party remain and there has been instances when they came back to the party the party remain so PDP with the main PDP that means because some people left there's some media they will not be PDP again they are here to do their congress and I can assure you by the time they finish their congress you never can say how many governors are going to coax the PDP upon everything I'm not saying this is good for a democracy it is a past system whereby people just wake up and stay PC today and tomorrow they are PDP but if the tables return you know I've asked you this question before what's the difference between the PDP and the APC I mean because when these people decide to cross over from the APC to the PDP the doors are wide open for them to come right in and the same thing is happening in the APC and you're pointing fingers what's the difference the lines of blood have you asked me I have just said it neither PDP or APC is benefiting from this is affecting our democracy it's affecting the growth of our democracy so why is the PDP not setting a trend if you think that this is a problem to our democracy as you have said what are you doing about it to stop the trend of cross-capteting and criss-crossing what we were proposing is an electoral law that we buy you from crossing to a political party with whatever office you may hold once you have that cross it will be very difficult for office holders to cross to another political party and not until that is done we will continue to see this cross-capteting affecting our democracy so for the matter that it is affecting PDP and for them it does only that I'm applauding it if they come to PDP generally it is a bad system that is affecting our democracy but if they come will you take them politics is a game of number and no political party ever short story against anybody political party is always open people can go in people can come out but there must be people all right well quickly Mr. Dajin closing the PDP governors have made many claims in fact they have said that the APC is a party that has wrecked Nigeria's economy the economy that the president promised to build when he came into power the issue of unemployment that he promised to deal with they also lambasted the APC and the presidency in terms of the insecurity that has been bedeviling the country they've talked about the fact that Nigerians have only witnessed nothing but misery and bad governance what do you have to say about this well I what I can say to you is for you to go back into his to go back to history once upon a time I like I don't like talking about this because um six years down the line I don't like to recall where we were before this particular government took over administration from the PDP but it will interest you to know that the the government was almost what in fact has fank completely was sinking completely at the time the APC came into power and Okoja Iwela the then of Senusila Mido Senusi who was of course the governor of Sibia Okoja Iwela who was the minister of finance and both of us and even Soludo they had all to say about where we were I'm sure Nigerians remember where we were in 2015 before we voted in president Buhari yes those were the problems of Nigeria and that's why Nigerians voted the president in what has the president done and the APC government to change that situation today that's my my name is Mary Ann I'll tell you for the last time my name is Mary Ann please remember that if you allow me if you allow me my analysis will take me to where you want me to go now the point is very clear we were we were we were we were the economy was so bad was in Shambu when we came in but as we speak today you could remember that salaries were not paid we were in recession when we took over but today we are taking the APC are taking Nigeria out of recession as we speak today salaries have been paid as a when due money from the federal allocations have been sent to the federal states the issue of security has been an issue that has been there in the last 10 15 20 years and this government has been doing everything possible to ensure that the issue of the security did your government promise that they were going to put an end to insecurity as soon as they go into office yes or no did the government promise that they were going to make all of our problems a thing of the past they are no magician did they promise I'm sorry sir did they promise that they were going to put an end to our problems yes okay and has the government been able to do that well it's almost six years down the line has the APC led government been able to scratch the surface of that okay unfortunately your your connection is breaking uh Usman Adaji is the all progressive congress party chairman for the fct and of course um Diro Deyemi is the deputy spokesperson of the People's Democratic Party thank you very much for speaking with us uh gentlemen thank you very much thank you very much for the opportunity all right well we have to go we'll take a short break and when we come back we'll talk about um the um situation by Raul for Erugbe Shalahi is calling for governors to sign the execution warrant of over 3 000 prison inmates why to decongest the prisons we'll be right back